Iranian inevitable - Should Turkey and Saudi Arbia be allowed Nukes ?

[9mmRifle]

The Iranian issue gets worse each month, there are some people in Washington and Tehran who are trying to avoid any kind of direct conflict but the situation gets worse every month. I think eventually they might shock us with a test announcing they have joined the Nuclear club. The Israeli PM has already verbally scolded the IAEA chief over Iran. It is thought by many analysts that Israel has a number of nuclear weapons but this has never been officially confirmed. In Iraq we constantly see the regional powers interfering in Iraqi affairs, financing militias, supplying weapons, some of the he Sunni states were petrified of a Shiite resurgence. Two regional U.S. allies that are affected by Iran's and its suspected drive towards nuclear energy are Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Turks dont want Nukes now but Turkish policy toward Iran will become a matter of reaction like its hardline reaction to the Kurdish issue.. The Saudis can take a short cuts by having Pakistan station weapons on Saudi territory. If Iran were to suddenly become a nuclear power, regional states may well consider their nuclear option and say they must be allowed protect themselves.

When will it end ?

Your opinion,
and please no flaming

[Thor]

IMO the primary purpose of stopping Iran's nuclear program is not to prevent an immediate Iranian attack, but to prevent a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. That is the worst kind of possible future scenario.

[Dragunov]

The middle east should be nukes free, period.

[number nine]

Maybe it should be in your opinion nuke free, but nobody can prevent other countries from making their own nuclear weapons. Sooner or later, expect Fiji to have them also.

Of course this is very bad for nations that currently enjoy benefits of having nuclear weapons, like increased importance in international affairs, but that's not my problem.

[Mastermind]

After the second nuclear war, there will be a rather large alteration in the way the world powers allow nuclear proliferation....that is, of course, provided there are any technological powers left after that little six minute war.

[number nine]

After the second nuclear war, there will be a rather large alteration in the way the world powers allow nuclear proliferation....that is, of course, provided there are any technological powers left after that little six minute war.

There will always be enough reasons for war, and always enough people ready to die in war. Problem is just that we don't wield sticks and stones and swords and pikes anymore and we can really hurt ourselves. Nothing else has changed.
So IMO is not even the matter whether there will be WWIII, but when it will begin. I honestly don't believe that will happen in our lifetime, or anytime soon, but I'm pretty certain sometime in the future red button will be pushed. Just look back. And all you need is one sufficiently powerful and degenerate man to do it.

[Rictor]

Without real and sustained moves by existing nuclear powers toward complete disarmament, any talk of the dangers of proliferation is just so much hot air. Sure, let the Saudis have nukes. Turkey too. Anyone and everyone is welcome, so long as they have decent safe-guards in place. No government is crazy enough to use nuclear weapons.

I would much rather live in a world where we were not under a constant threat of complete annihilation, but thems the breaks. I'm not worried about some nutjob getting their hands on one nuke but the tens of thousands sitting on a hairpin trigger in Russian, American, Chinese, British, French etc silos. One weapon can kill a few thousand...it's not an existential threat. But as long as everyone insists on aiming their world-ending arsenals at each other, that is the true threat.

Of course, the probability of an existing nuclear power manning up and laying down their arms is almost nil. Cowards.

[number nine]

Without real and sustained moves by existing nuclear powers toward complete disarmament, any talk of the dangers of proliferation is just so much hot air. Sure, let the Saudis have nukes. Turkey too. Anyone and everyone is welcome, so long as they have decent safe-guards in place. No government is crazy enough to use nuclear weapons.


Which government? I am sure you will find some governments in history that were indeed capable of such an act. But of course, you don't wan't to acknowledge it, because it makes you feel safer.



I would much rather live in a world where we were not under a constant threat of complete annihilation, but thems the breaks. I'm not worried about some nutjob getting their hands on one nuke but the tens of thousands sitting on a hairpin trigger in Russian, American, Chinese, British, French etc silos. One weapon can kill a few thousand...it's not an existential threat.

If such an act wouldn't provoke retaliation,you are right, but is that the case? Even if it is now, will it be in the future?



But as long as everyone insists on aiming their world-ending arsenals at each other, that is the true threat.


Exactly.



Of course, the probability of an existing nuclear power manning up and laying down their arms is almost nil. Cowards.

It's bit above nil, because South Africa did it. However, that probability is low, I agree.

[timetraveller]

The creation of the Nuclear Power that spawn the bomb it sadly has created more problems than it's good .... which Oppenhiemer [ sp ] truly never imagined ..

[muck]

IMO the primary purpose of stopping Iran's nuclear program is not to prevent an immediate Iranian attack, but to prevent a nuclear arms race in the Middle East. That is the worst kind of possible future scenario.

That would be a good and the only legitimate cause to intervene in this issue. However this won't work without a nuclear disarmament of Israel.

[number nine]

That would be a good and the only legitimate cause to intervene in this issue. However this won't work without a nuclear disarmament of Israel.

Intervention? That is trying to keep the world from turning. And it's not a solution, speaking of which, I don't see one. Iran may be well denied getting nuclear weapons by it, but it is just patching up so that there is no apparent leakage, I can say.

And always such intervention will raise questions about morality of an act, "If India was not bombed in 1974. after their first nuclear test, why we are?".

Legally, precedents act against it as well, you see. Indians were just asked not to weaponize it, but were not attacked.

[Mastermind]

Nuclear armament is a false canard. First, you dare not ever use them in a world where just about everyone has them available for retaliation. Unless...of course, like Iran, you have a declarative position of wanting to commit ethereal suicide in order to bring about some sort of twisted and convoluted spiritual resurrection.

The unpredictable factor in more nuclear armed nations is the quite good possibility one of those nations will eventually spawn a maniac in charge of them...as we have seen many times in the last fifty or so years. Can anyone doubt the world conflagration that would have resulted if both Stalin and Hitler had achieved the "bomb" at the same time? How unusual is it that two such monsters co-existed in time? Not very….the human race seems to grow them like cucumbers.

As for the comment above regarding "We don't wield sticks and stones anymore"...that made me think about the "We" part. Currently, in the United States, as an example, there is very little "We" left. Our governments have ascended to the realm of the divine and our leaders are assuming Caesarian postures...catering to the most frivolous and inane policies and whims of what ever sounds good at the moment and to hell with the will of the people. The people have lost a great part of their control over the government. How long before a megalomaniac populist comes to power? We watched helplessly as Clinton gave away previously sacred state secrets to our most bitter rivals, The Chinese and committed a long list of never before tolerated abuses of power. Now China has come to be a very viable contender for super power status. We watched with total impotency as Bush and Company, ran an idiotic war and proceeded with giving away what may turn out to be trillions of our tax dollars to people who utterly despise us in Iraq. If we failed with that critical task, how are "We" to control the quality of the future people who will ultimately have total control over the most powerful nuclear arsenal on the planet? Look at the quality of the “Nearly” people...Kerry? Gore? Hillary? And the one who made it…Bush. With material like them to choose from, how long before a real total looser comes to power? Power of the people over nuclear bombs?...Hell, we have proven we are incapable of controlling sovereignty over our own damn borders!

Eventually, and I think sooner than later, we will be forced to confront some lunatic with a nuclear arsenal and the means and will to deliver it. Science and the gargantuan fountain of information on the web have guaranteed the ultimate knowledge of mass murder by A-Bomb will fall into the hands of such men as Ahmadinajad. When that day of confrontation comes...what? Surrender because they are willing to use their weapons and we are not? Already they have proven many times more powerful in their collective convictions, willing to murder any number of innocent people to gain their objectives while we agonize over humane treatment for war criminals at Gitmo and we put our own soldiers on trial for perceived inhumanities on the battlefield. Our national backs are streaked and bloody from our insane masochistic self mutilations.

Let Iran and others gain the nuclear power. I pray for the day we will be forced to confront them...It will be the first day we begin to re-grow our civilizations courage and finally realize what it is we really are up against.

In nature as in international politics, it is not enough to have the strength to survive and grow stronger…you must also have the collective will to survive. It is my experience that nothing gives a person (or a nation) the will to survive like facing almost certain and imminent destruction.

If we allow nations like Iran to gain the ultimate power (as we seem destined to do), then it will be only a matter of time before we are forced to make a very grave decision about Iran, her people, our people and global Islam in general.

[shocker1]

http://64.40.99.49/Multimedia%5Cpics%5C1385%5C8%5Cphoto%5C592.jpg
When the Pope or Billy Graham poses with missiles and flowers waving at me, let me know and I will call for the destruction of our weapons.

[Mastermind]

Shocker! Shocker for World Leader!...count on my vote! :-)

[number nine]

Nuclear armament is a false canard. First, you dare not ever use them in a world where just about everyone has them available for retaliation. Unless...of course, like Iran, you have a declarative position of wanting to commit ethereal suicide in order to bring about some sort of twisted and convoluted spiritual resurrection.

If you take his words at face value only. I don't, however, I might be wrong.



The unpredictable factor in more nuclear armed nations is the quite good possibility one of those nations will eventually spawn a maniac in charge of them...as we have seen many times in the last fifty or so years. Can anyone doubt the world conflagration that would have resulted if both Stalin and Hitler had achieved the "bomb" at the same time? How unusual is it that two such monsters co-existed in time? Not very….the human race seems to grow them like cucumbers.

They were monsters of a very different sort.
Unlike Hitler, Stalin was not a gambler, nor he was on a mission to establish world hegemony. He was sly and smart. Man like him would have used nuclear weapons only if absolute victory could be achieved swiftly and without danger. On the other hand what gambler with a mission would do is unpredictable for me.

That is the reason WWIII didn't broke out under Stalin.



As for the comment above regarding "We don't wield sticks and stones anymore"...that made me think about the "We" part. Currently, in the United States, as an example, there is very little "We" left. Our governments have ascended to the realm of the divine and our leaders are assuming Caesarian postures...catering to the most frivolous and inane policies and whims of what ever sounds good at the moment and to hell with the will of the people. The people have lost a great part of their control over the government. How long before a megalomaniac populist comes to power? We watched helplessly as Clinton gave away previously sacred state secrets to our most bitter rivals, The Chinese and committed a long list of never before tolerated abuses of power. Now China has come to be a very viable contender for super power status. We watched with total impotency as Bush and Company, ran an idiotic war and proceeded with giving away what may turn out to be trillions of our tax dollars to people who utterly despise us in Iraq. If we failed with that critical task, how are "We" to control the quality of the future people who will ultimately have total control over the most powerful nuclear arsenal on the planet? Look at the quality of the “Nearly” people...Kerry? Gore? Hillary? And the one who made it…Bush. With material like them to choose from, how long before a real total looser comes to power? Power of the people over nuclear bombs?...Hell, we have proven we are incapable of controlling sovereignty over our own damn borders!


That is the real problem. Political elite hides behind veil of normality.



Eventually, and I think sooner than later, we will be forced to confront some lunatic with a nuclear arsenal and the means and will to deliver it. Science and the gargantuan fountain of information on the web have guaranteed the ultimate knowledge of mass murder by A-Bomb will fall into the hands of such men as Ahmadinajad. When that day of confrontation comes...what? Surrender because they are willing to use their weapons and we are not? Already they have proven many times more powerful in their collective convictions, willing to murder any number of innocent people to gain their objectives while we agonize over humane treatment for war criminals at Gitmo and we put our own soldiers on trial for perceived inhumanities on the battlefield. Our national backs are streaked and bloody from our insane masochistic self mutilations.

But they know nothing if they consider us weak. What drives Jihadi to kill nonbeliever is need to dominate, taken to the extreme. We would not go farther than beating someone black and blue if annoyed greatly am I right? But it is the same. We are the same as human beings and thus have the same capacity for violence. Only the Jihadi due to poor education, or short temper, like ordinary criminal, without restraint show masculinity by violence.



Let Iran and others gain the nuclear power. I pray for the day we will be forced to confront them...It will be the first day we begin to re-grow our civilizations courage and finally realize what it is we really are up against.

In nature as in international politics, it is not enough to have the strength to survive and grow stronger…you must also have the collective will to survive. It is my experience that nothing gives a person (or a nation) the will to survive like facing almost certain and imminent destruction.

When you are talking about an individual you are right. But is everybody of your stock?



If we allow nations like Iran to gain the ultimate power (as we seem destined to do), then it will be only a matter of time before we are forced to make a very grave decision about Iran, her people, our people and global Islam in general.

[Rictor]

http://64.40.99.49/Multimedia%5Cpics%5C1385%5C8%5Cphoto%5C592.jpg
When the Pope or Billy Graham poses with missiles and flowers waving at me, let me know and I will call for the destruction of our weapons.

Being a religious leader does not make one any more or less insane than being a political leader. Well, in theory. And besides, it's not as if Khamenei has his finger on the (non-existant) button. There are surely dozens of people required to launch a weapon, right down to the field technician who turns the key, who's sanity and instinct for self-preservation would prevail.

The current Supreme Leader has shown himself to be a lot more restrained and pragmatic than the fiery zeal of Khomeini.

[Lazy Lob]

Nuclear armament is a false canard. ......................

................If we allow nations like Iran to gain the ultimate power (as we seem destined to do), then it will be only a matter of time before we are forced to make a very grave decision about Iran, her people, our people and global Islam in general.


Excellent post.

[Fenix]

The Iranian issue gets worse each month, there are some people in Washington and Tehran who are trying to avoid any kind of direct conflict but the situation gets worse every month. I think eventually they might shock us with a test announcing they have joined the Nuclear club. The Israeli PM has already verbally scolded the IAEA chief over Iran. It is thought by many analysts that Israel has a number of nuclear weapons but this has never been officially confirmed. In Iraq we constantly see the regional powers interfering in Iraqi affairs, financing militias, supplying weapons, some of the he Sunni states were petrified of a Shiite resurgence. Two regional U.S. allies that are affected by Iran's and its suspected drive towards nuclear energy are Turkey and Saudi Arabia. Turks dont want Nukes now but Turkish policy toward Iran will become a matter of reaction like its hardline reaction to the Kurdish issue.. The Saudis can take a short cuts by having Pakistan station weapons on Saudi territory. If Iran were to suddenly become a nuclear power, regional states may well consider their nuclear option and say they must be allowed protect themselves.

When will it end ?

Your opinion,
and please no flaming

I imagine that if US does nothing, a timeline like this will ensue:

(about north korean road to nukes)

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/nkorea/nuke-miss-chron.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2604437.stm

...

I think the only way US could keep Iran from getting nukes is if it would state that if UN fails to keep Iran from becoming nuclear US will give ballistic missiles with nukes to Japan / some country that Russia does not want to have nukes.

That might inspire the leaders in Moscow / Beijing to become more interested in keeping Teheran from going nuclear.

Because in the end of day, if UN and countries behind it dont want nuclear weapons to profilitate, they wont. But if the countries behind UN do not mind their friends getting nukes. Then they will.

I honestly think that if China and Russia are going to play that game. US should too!

Nukes, nukes for everyone! **** sanity!

[9mmRifle]

The middle east should be nukes free, period.

Yes but the real question is what happens if we can not prevent Iran from getting Nukes. The nuclear weapon is a very advanced weapon but it is just another device in warfare, allowing a new player will change events. It disrupts the balance, and other countries will cry un-fair like saying all firearms are banned for people in Texas but the people of Oklahoma and California are allowed firearms. How come we have been managing to get South Africa and N.Korea to disarm peacefully, they understand our position and they came to negotiations but the Iranians insist Nuclear weapons are their right ?
Turkey argues that we have dropped the ball and are unable to protect them from Kurdish terrorism, Saudi will also want their own weapons once Iran blows the bomb, the international ban on chemical weapons may also be scrapped as nations scramble to re-adjust to a changing Middle east.

[Mastermind]

What happens if they get nukes? We tolerate them as a nuclear power. We assigne certain of our weapons on their most vulnerable cities, we announce such targeting and everyone goes on about their business as usual. I suspect iran, once faced with the responsibilites of joining the exclusive nuclear club will suddenly mature a bit. Nuclear powers do not have the luxury of tossing about threats and insults. someone might actually take them at their word and respond accordingly...think of it very much like an old western saloon where everyone has the power of life and death over everyone else. People tend to get overly polite and respectful when their very lives are on the line for their words and actions....and that is drunk or sober, too.

[number nine]

I imagine that if US does nothing, a timeline like this will ensue:

(about north korean road to nukes)

http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/nkorea/nuke-miss-chron.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2604437.stm

...




I think the only way US could keep Iran from getting nukes is if it would state that if UN fails to keep Iran from becoming nuclear US will give ballistic missiles with nukes to Japan / some country that Russia does not want to have nukes.


And you are really sure they are getting them from Russia? Is it indeed impossible Iranians to do what USA and USSR did fifty years ago alone?
Who helped India to detonate nuclear weapon in 1974? Both USA and USSR were caught with their pants down then, and Chinese would never help India. Who helped South Africa to develop nuclear weapons in 80's?



That might inspire the leaders in Moscow / Beijing to become more interested in keeping Teheran from going nuclear.

Too bad you can't order a man to do what you want. And if you are in the position to order, but not enforce execution of that order, nobody will pay the heed to it. And short of military action against Iran, any such order is in essence unenforceable.
It's completely obvious that nobody controls Iran, but Iranians themselves.



Because in the end of day, if UN and countries behind it dont want nuclear weapons to profilitate, they wont. But if the countries behind UN do not mind their friends getting nukes. Then they will.


Why should other countries care? India didn't. Pakistan didn't as well.



I honestly think that if China and Russia are going to play that game. US should too!

Nukes, nukes for everyone! **** sanity!

Nukes in the first place,were insanity. And when they were made,other countries were quick to make their own nuclear weapon, why they shouldn't? Because Uncle Sam don't like it? Or Russians?

[number nine]

What happens if they get nukes? We tolerate them as a nuclear power. We assigne certain of our weapons on their most vulnerable cities, we announce such targeting and everyone goes on about their business as usual. I suspect iran, once faced with the responsibilites of joining the exclusive nuclear club will suddenly mature a bit. Nuclear powers do not have the luxury of tossing about threats and insults. someone might actually take them at their word and respond accordingly...think of it very much like an old western saloon where everyone has the power of life and death over everyone else. People tend to get overly polite and respectful when their very lives are on the line for their words and actions....and that is drunk or sober, too.

Exactly! Don't believe that Iranian propaganda for domestic consumption shows true intentions of Iranian government!

And in worst case, if they really want to destroy themselves, somebody will help them.

[number nine]

Being a religious leader does not make one any more or less insane than being a political leader. Well, in theory. And besides, it's not as if Khamenei has his finger on the (non-existant) button. There are surely dozens of people required to launch a weapon, right down to the field technician who turns the key, who's sanity and instinct for self-preservation would prevail.

The current Supreme Leader has shown himself to be a lot more restrained and pragmatic than the fiery zeal of Khomeini.

But Iran is a theocracy, religious leader is political leader as well, and have to perform both duties. So, there is no problem with that photo.

[LMAV]

http://64.40.99.49/Multimedia%5Cpics%5C1385%5C8%5Cphoto%5C592.jpg
When the Pope or Billy Graham poses with missiles and flowers waving at me, let me know and I will call for the destruction of our weapons.

No kidding, all these people saying that Iran wont use nukes and theres nothing to worry about. Yet, they ignore everything these nutjobs say and they ignore the constant flow of propaganda like this. You would never see something like this from a western power.

What the hell is up with the rose? Is that some kind of parting gift for Israel?


Exactly! Don't believe that Iranian propaganda for domestic consumption shows true intentions of Iranian government!

And in worst case, if they really want to destroy themselves, somebody will help them.

Ever heard of the 12th imam? What is it with folks like yourself, who are so deadest on ignoring the obvious? Something tells me that if Bush said or did anything even remotely similar, you would be up in arms.

[shocker1]

The nuclear tech Iran has now is way beyond the tech the USA had in the 40's. Next time I hear a ten year estimate on when they can go nuclear I would like to smack em. I say they have the means right now to make a bomb anytime they wish. It is not some ubber intellectual secret that only can be seen by those on the UNSC. A bomb is not that complicated, getting enriched material is and Iran has that wrapped up IMO.

[number nine]

No kidding, all these people saying that Iran wont use nukes and theres nothing to worry about. Yet, they ignore everything these nutjobs say and they ignore the constant flow of propaganda like this. You would never see something like this from a western power.

It's just a little boasting for domestic consumption. It's propaganda.



What the hell is up with the rose? Is that some kind of parting gift for Israel?



Ever heard of the 12th imam?

How many nukes he have? I told already, in worst case, Iranians will destroy themselves and world will just continue turning. If they want to bring about Armageddon, they will have it.



What is it with folks like yourself, who are so deadest on ignoring the obvious? Something tells me that if Bush said or did anything even remotely similar, you would be up in arms.

I wouldn't but then, I'm not an American.

[LRPV]

shocker1, Good point. Even a hydrogen bomb on a freighter sailed into Haifa would be as good as a low yield missile delivery. Let's hope the mullahs have reservations about the 72 virgins awaiting them.

[shocker1]

I wished Iran and my own country would shut the hell up. However the religious side of the hate feud being dusted off as "for domestic consumption" is dangerous. Our President invoking WWIII crap is also dangerous, I am sick of Mullahs and Bushes. I wished they would go away. I think Iranians and Americans can become friends again if we tell our provocateurs to go to hell we do not believe your foaming at the mouth ignorance anymore.

More on topic I do not support suppling nuclear tech to anyone. Particularly Turkey, Syria, Saudis or anyone for that matter. I hope some day for technology that renders this evil from hell useless. Or even better harnesses the energy like the Soviet warheads powering my home right now.:)

[Lambert58]

After the second nuclear war, there will be a rather large alteration in the way the world powers allow nuclear proliferation....that is, of course, provided there are any technological powers left after that little six minute war.

That sums it up nicely.

[LMAV]

Our President invoking WWIII crap is also dangerous, I am sick of Mullahs and Bushes.


He didn't invoke WWIII, he simply laid out the facts of the situation. He's not saying we would wage WWIII, but that Iran's possession of a bomb would lead to it.

[shocker1]

He didn't invoke WWIII, he simply laid out the fact of the matter.
He should tone his mouth down and use vialed threats like moving carriers and assets around only. While taking all measures to remain on the moral high ground. He does not and our words are played as such. There is no defense for his ignorance in foreign diplomacy anymore.

[Fenix]

And you are really sure they are getting them from Russia? Is it indeed impossible Iranians to do what USA and USSR did fifty years ago alone?
Who helped India to detonate nuclear weapon in 1974? Both USA and USSR were caught with their pants down then, and Chinese would never help India. Who helped South Africa to develop nuclear weapons in 80's?


There you go, accepting the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

The point is that the nuke countries should be limited.

But if everyone seems to be ok with "one more", then hell.

We should be building nukes here in Finland too! :D I bet Russians
would love that. According to your logic, they should have no problem
with that! Right?



Too bad you can't order a man to do what you want. And if you are in the position to order, but not enforce execution of that order, nobody will pay the heed to it. And short of military action against Iran, any such order is in essence unenforceable.
It's completely obvious that nobody controls Iran, but Iranians themselves.


If UN was unified and had a mission to stop Iran from getting nukes.

Believe me they could stop Iran.

My point being that China and Russia are against condemning Iran from getting nukes.

So if they are against that. Hell, lets ship mirved minutemen for the israelis and Japanese. I mean, they are only nukes right?

Do not you get it? These things should not prolifetate!



Why should other countries care? India didn't. Pakistan didn't as well.


Both got their nukes during cold war. Both had a backer.

If Iran has got a backer, then I guess it is time for US to get couple of its friends to the nuke club too! And maybe 100 mirved minutemen for Israel?

(I know mirv is illegal, but hey, who cares about laws anymore)



Nukes in the first place,were insanity. And when they were made,other countries were quick to make their own nuclear weapon, why they shouldn't? Because Uncle Sam don't like it? Or Russians?

Yes! Yes! YES!

Jesus ****!

[Lion of War]

Do not make the mistake that we will bow to any one.We are a ancient nation and people and have been around since the age of time.If we wanted nuclear weapons we would of had them by now.The puppet Shah had a nuclear program being run in secret.It was dismantled after 1979.

Nuclear weapons are horrible.They wil lead to mans destruction unless we can peacefuly resolve situations instead of bombing and invading countries only on suspicion.

[Lambert58]

Do not make the mistake that we will bow to any one.We are a ancient nation and people and have been around since the age of time.If we wanted nuclear weapons we would of had them by now.The puppet Shah had a nuclear program being run in secret.It was dismantled after 1979.

Nuclear weapons are horrible.They wil lead to mans destruction unless we can peacefuly resolve situations instead of bombing and invading countries only on suspicion.

Well, hello Iranian Propoganda Machine!:bash:

[Lion of War]

Stating my opion that is all.I'm Iranian but what does my ethnic background have to do with the topic at hand Lambert58.

[LMAV]

He should tone his mouth down and use vialed threats like moving carriers and assets around only. While taking all measures to remain on the moral high ground. He does not and our words are played as such. There is no defense for his ignorance in foreign diplomacy anymore.

Well, now the world knows what the stakes are. I prefer it over beating around the bush.

Just out of curiosity, would you prefer his diplomacy was more like the Clinton administration?


Stating my opion that is all.I'm Iranian but what does my ethnic background have to do with the topic at hand Lambert58.

The suspicions the world has are based on the actions of your leaders. You cant just sit back and proclaim we have nothing to worry about, while leaving your crazed leader to go around the world saying hes helping the return of the 12th Imam!

[9mmRifle]

Iran getting the bomb might force the Saudis and Turks to acquire a nuke capability as a deterrent. Historically there has been an ethnic power struggle between the Arab's, Turks and Persians for supremacy in the Islamic world. There is the Shiite versus Sunni angle to consider and many of the Shiites in this region are loyal to Iran, and not to the countries they are living in

On this Shah subject I'm not sure the Shah was the puppet you people describe. During WW2 the Iranians were filled with pro-Nazi Iranian intellectuals, what else could the Allies do except support the Shah, the whole point to WW2 was defeating Hitler's axis and for those who chose the wrong side and lost - well though luck, its nothing personal but that's the way it goes in war, the Islamics can shout about a Western Crusade conspiracy all the want but in reality its just BS. The Allies had to do something because leading up to the war Hitler was Iran's largest trading partner.

One thing more worrisome than a nuclear armed iran is nuclear armed saudi, nuclear turkey, egypt etc. However if we can not protect Turkey atc perhaps they do have the right to protect themselves. If Iran can get the bomb without being stopped then why can't Turkey or other US allies be allowed the same ? With a more militant Iran there is now a weakening of Arab states and their reliance on the US nuclear umbrella. We see recently with Turkey that they have become upset with the Kurdish issue and now claim the USA is not protecting them from Kurdish terrorism. Turkey has already talked of changing its strategic alliance from America to protection under Russia. Saudis may also pull a fast one and back in 88, Saudi bought from China intermediate-range missiles capable of reaching any part of the Middle East with a nuclear warhead. Egypt might want to look at a WMD program but Egypt unlike Saudi Arabia, does not have the financial power to pursue a nuclear program.

[Lambert58]

Stating my opion that is all.I'm Iranian but what does my ethnic background have to do with the topic at hand Lambert58.

wtf? you're the one that said "we will not bow..." You made your nationality part of the topic. The reason I labeled you the "Iranian Propoganda Machine" is that you sound just like Ahmadinnerjacket: Screeching for the destruction of Israel in one moment and saying he wants peace in the next. Or maybe it's his lying about fighting a proxy war against the US in Iraq that makes us think he's lying about nukes.

The Iranian people, those that enjoyed a free democracy before 1979, are not our enemy. The mulllahs and dinnerjacket are.

[Lion of War]

The suspicions the world has are based on the actions of your leaders. You cant just sit back and proclaim we have nothing to worry about, while leaving your crazed leader to go around the world saying hes helping the return of the 12th Imam!

Exactly.Actions speak louder then words.Sure you will have him saying stuff like that and you have Bush proclaiming World War 3.The governments.As for the people.I have never met a American I did not like.

[shocker1]

Well, now the world knows what the stakes are. I prefer it over beating around the bush.

Just out of curiosity, would you prefer his diplomacy was more like the Clinton administration?

Yeah, lets not beat around the bush lets help fuel the hate machine with nice one liners in the Persian press. Bush's foreign policy is a disaster as much as Clinton's inaction. Insinuate that I support Clinton in any way again and you are on the ignore list.

[Fenix]

Do not make the mistake that we will bow to any one.We are a ancient nation and people and have been around since the age of time.If we wanted nuclear weapons we would of had them by now.The puppet Shah had a nuclear program being run in secret.It was dismantled after 1979.

Nuclear weapons are horrible.They wil lead to mans destruction unless we can peacefuly resolve situations instead of bombing and invading countries only on suspicion.

Oh Jesus wept! You have been around since you came out of your mommys womb. No longer than that!

And to top it all you are no seperate "People". You are part of us, the rest of humanity, it is just the years living in the arid desert that have given you these delusions of greatness. I mean, if you never leave your country, what are you comparing it to? If you have never walked down Champs De Elysees or strolled down on a beach in Monaco, or hell just taken the flight over Persian gulf to Dubai? What are you comparing it to? We all have our ruins,
but those do not mean a thing. The ancients wont rise from the dirt, the ruins wont turn back to castles.

Last time people started thinking like you do here they were steamrolled by
red ball express all the way to Berlin. Little did their pride, Aryan blood and norse Gods help them.

If you guys do have something, you guys have your "honor" and "pride" for which you are willing to risk world war three. Just so that you can be proud.

Well, I got news for you. What good is pride when your country is a smoldering ruin with the rest of the world and no one is coming for your radiation sores and nothing waits but cold arid wind licking your wounds like a disased lion about to die. And then you do.

Is that something worth a moment of pride? We all die. But would not it be better go out surrounded by friends in a succeful country with a great future instead of radiated **** hole that will be paradise only for cockroaches and scorpions.

Embrace west, embrace capitalism. Hell, in US people of Iraninan decent have become billionaires, flown to space and all that good stuff that ambition, sanity and capitalism tend to produce.

How about you guys stop talking about you being "ancient people" and come back to the table where the rest of the humanity sits. Because its like Weird Al Yankovic says, "you aint fat, you aint nothing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw00EUh0GT4

[Lion of War]

wtf? you're the one that said "we will not bow..." You made your nationality part of the topic. The reason I labeled you the "Iranian Propoganda Machine" is that you sound just like Ahmadinnerjacket: Screeching for the destruction of Israel in one moment and saying he wants peace in the next. Or maybe it's his lying about fighting a proxy war against the US in Iraq that makes us think he's lying about nukes.

The Iranian people, those that enjoyed a free democracy before 1979, are not our enemy. The mulllahs and dinnerjacket are.

I'm not a fan of Pre-1979 which was not a free democracy but a dictatorship neither of the current ruling party.Thanks for your enlightening view on your maturity.

[Lion of War]

Oh Jesus wept! You have been around since you came out of your mommys womb. No longer than that!

And to top it all you are no seperate "People". You are part of us, the rest of humanity, it is just the years living in the arid desert that have given you these delusions of greatness. I mean, if you never leave your country, what are you comparing it to? If you have never walked down Champs De Elysees or strolled down on a beach in Monaco, or hell just taken the flight over Persian gulf to Dubai? What are you comparing it to? We all have our ruins,
but those do not mean a thing. The ancients wont rise from the dirt, the ruins wont turn back to castles.

Last time people started thinking like you do here they were steamrolled by
red ball express all the way to Berlin. Little did their pride, Aryan blood and norse Gods help them.

If you guys do have something, you guys have your "honor" and "pride" for which you are willing to risk world war three. Just so that you can be proud.

Well, I got news for you. What good is pride when your country is a smoldering ruin with the rest of the world and no one is coming for your radiation sores and nothing waits but cold arid wind licking your wounds like a disased lion about to die. And then you do.

Is that something worth a moment of pride? We all die. But would not it be better go out surrounded by friends in a succeful country with a great future instead of radiated **** hole that will be paradise only for cockroaches and scorpions.

Embrace west, embrace capitalism. Hell, in US people of Iraninan decent have become billionaires, flown to space and all that good stuff that ambition, sanity and capitalism tend to produce.

How about you guys stop talking about you being "ancient people" and come back to the table where the rest of the humanity sits. Because its like Weird Al Yankovic says, "you aint fat, you aint nothing"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw00EUh0GT4

What was the need of bringing my mother.Iran is not all desert or arid.I wasn't seperating us from humanity or the human race.I have been to many parts of the world.But no place seems to feel like home.Aren't all people proud of past history of there countries.I won't really go into much with you.Since from the rest of your post I can't tell if your being serious or humorous.The video at the end was a nice touch.

[Lion of War]

On this Shah subject I'm not sure the Shah was the puppet you people describe. During WW2 the Iranians were filled with pro-Nazi Iranian intellectuals, what else could the Allies do except support the Shah, the whole point to WW2 was defeating Hitler's axis and for those who chose the wrong side and lost - well though luck, its nothing personal but that's the way it goes in war, the Islamics can shout about a Western Crusade conspiracy all the want but in reality its just BS. The Allies had to do something because leading up to the war Hitler was Iran's largest trading partner.



The Shah at the time was ousted by the allies and sent to South Africa to live in exile.His son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was placed in power.But Iran during the war was neutral.The Soviets and British still invaded us.Germany has always been a econimicly powerful nation despite it's governments.Germany was alot of other countries largest trading partner not only Iran.Iran's important location made it a target to the Allies and resources.

[Kippari]

Okay Fenix, enough with the capitalism already!:)

The thing is that the minute Iran get's a nuke she will isolate herself a lot further than it is now. Israel will get very very trigger-happy, India and Pakistan will both raise their level of readiness. Sh1tstorm will fly over the Arab world and Turkey. EU countries will prevent their companies trading with Iran. Chinese will try to further themselves like they did with NK, which was a lot closer to them than Iran could ever be. Russkies don't want to look bad either trading with a religious psycho with the bomb. The only things they will have are themselves, the bomb and oil but little refineries. Then the Iranians will see what it's like to be in the top: cold and alone. The Iran getting nukes doesn't worry me as much as what happens when the different ethnic and political groups raise their voices when people are running out of supplies to live. I don't want to see that situation when there will be a bunch of paranoid loonies running a nuclear-power running amok on itself. The consequenses will be dire indeed.:|

[Lion of War]

I don't want to see that situation when there will be a bunch of paranoid loonies running a nuclear-power running amok on itself. The consequenses will be dire indeed.:|

Pakistan comes to mind.

[Kippari]

Pakistan comes to mind.

Yes, it does. Although there it's the government vs. muslim radicals in Waziristan, not the other way around. Atleast as far as i know.

[number nine]

There you go, accepting the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

The point is that the nuke countries should be limited.

And who have the right to determine who can join the nuclear club and who can't? Uncle Sam? Russians?



But if everyone seems to be ok with "one more", then hell.

We should be building nukes here in Finland too! :D I bet Russians
would love that. According to your logic, they should have no problem
with that! Right?

Yes they really shouldn't have the problem with that. Unless they wish to attack you, am I right, what will just be the proof that you need them?

Same is Iran vs. Uncle Sam.



If UN was unified and had a mission to stop Iran from getting nukes.

Believe me they could stop Iran.


Even USA or Russia alone could do it. But point is, do they have the right to do that?



My point being that China and Russia are against condemning Iran from getting nukes.


Maybe they know that would be empty words, unless, as I stated already one is ready to enforce them.



So if they are against that. Hell, lets ship mirved minutemen for the israelis and Japanese. I mean, they are only nukes right?

Do not you get it? These things should not prolifetate!


They will, no matter what you wish or what I wish. But you can't accept the truth yet?




Both got their nukes during cold war. Both had a backer.


Can you prove it? It's 40's technology after all.



If Iran has got a backer, then I guess it is time for US to get couple of its friends to the nuke club too! And maybe 100 mirved minutemen for Israel?


Fine by me, as I don't plan to wage war.



(I know mirv is illegal, but hey, who cares about laws anymore)


It's not. By the way, you have the point about laws. Without coercion by military means or othewise one sovereign state don't have the duty to accept the dictate of another. Which means you don't care about law as you somehow expect it.



Yes! Yes! YES!

Jesus ****!

I will add, if there has been purely defensive weapons in history, though it's questionable purely defensive weapon can exist, nuclear weapons are among them. How many nuclear weapons have been produced so far? And how many have been used in combat?

[Fenix]

What was the need of bringing my mother.Iran is not all desert or arid.I wasn't seperating us from humanity or the human race.I have been to many parts of the world.But no place seems to feel like home.Aren't all people proud of past history of there countries.I won't really go into much with you.Since from the rest of your post I can't tell if your being serious or humorous.The video at the end was a nice touch.

Your mother came from what I perceived as arrogance when you were talking about Iranians being "ancient people", I just wanted to remind you that you were born from a woman just like the rest of us.

You feel at home in Iran? Little wonder since you are Iranian.

But tell me this, do you think it is good for Iran to further distance itself from the rest of the world? And that is exactly what Iran is doing by openly trying to gain nuclear weapons.

What good did nuclear weapons do for North Korean people? I realize they did a lot of good for their leaders, (K Il was suspected of authorizing blowing up a korean airliner in 1987, but as long as he has nukes, he can rule with iron fist and no one will ever get to him)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858

But what good did the nukes do to the North Korean people?

The only reason why your country is trying to get nukes is to protect the ruling religious class. It is not done for the people. They are risking the lives of every Iranian and all people on earth just to cement their own position of power. How nice.

I guess that is why I am somewhat pissed. Because I was a kid during the time when world was frozen in a mexican standoff. Nukes aimed at everyone and fingers on the trigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff

It is your leaders who want that to happen again.

And just so that you understand why this touches everyone.

During cold war, Finland was targeted by multiple US H bombs and I would not be surprised if parts of Finland were targeted by Russians too.

Finnish children too will live under the nuclear threat if Iranians are able to bring the cold war back. You want that? You really think that will make people love Iran? If you guys manage to bring cold war back? **** no!

[Lion of War]

What the.

I can't stop laughing.

[Fenix]

What the.

I can't stop laughing.

Imagine this over Teheran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWq-_FWqOFU

Would you still laugh?

[m.i.t]

first thanx for this important thread...


if iran produce nukes offcourse they will send some of them to Syria...

so Turkiye and Saudis will wanna to defend themselves and have them..

producing of nukes in iran will cause " domino effect" or inflation in club of nukers...if Turkiye produce so greece may wanna have them...etc...

in case of USA loose initiative in the ME so we sadly will see 1000 USD perbarrel and global energy crisis..

scenarios are terrible...

l think nuke free ME is an obligation to interfere global halacoust...
so USA may consider to pressure on israel for disarmament for nukes...

best way seems disarmament...but lm not sure its possible...

[Lion of War]

Your starting to sound like Ahmadinejad and Bush.Pure comedy.

[number nine]

Your mother came from what I perceived as arrogance when you were talking about Iranians being "ancient people", I just wanted to remind you that you were born from a woman just like the rest of us.

You feel at home in Iran? Little wonder since you are Iranian.

But tell me this, do you think it is good for Iran to further distance itself from the rest of the world? And that is exactly what Iran is doing by openly trying to gain nuclear weapons.

What good did nuclear weapons do for North Korean people? I realize they did a lot of good for their leaders, (K Il was suspected of authorizing blowing up a korean airliner in 1987, but as long as he has nukes, he can rule with iron fist and no one will ever get to him)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858




But what good did the nukes do to the North Korean people?


I will tell you, more good that you can imagine,and more good than they can imagine. Perhaps Kim is a fool, but even in hundred years North Koreans will have nuclear weapon, which is after all, not so useless that Americans and Russians have gotten rid themselves of it? If nuclear weapon is so useless, why USA and Russia and France and China don't get rid of it?



The only reason why your country is trying to get nukes is to protect the ruling religious class. It is not done for the people. They are risking the lives of every Iranian and all people on earth just to cement their own position of power. How nice.

And ensure his children will be defended.



I guess that is why I am somewhat pissed. Because I was a kid during the time when world was frozen in a mexican standoff. Nukes aimed at everyone and fingers on the trigger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_standoff

It is your leaders who want that to happen again.

And just so that you understand why this touches everyone.

During cold war, Finland was targeted by multiple US H bombs and I would not be surprised if parts of Finland were targeted by Russians too.

Finnish children too will live under the nuclear threat if Iranians are able to bring the cold war back. You want that? You really think that will make people love Iran? If you guys manage to bring cold war back? **** no!

But you ain't a kid now am I right? Nobody is going to live forever, and everybody accepts it sooner or later. And for a child, realizing that one way or another, through nuking or otherwise, life of everyone ends sooner or later is the beginning of that acceptance.

[Fenix]

Your starting to sound like Ahmadinejad and Bush.Pure comedy.

Here is some comedy for you!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrWz9XVvls

:D So funny.

Lets all kill each other. Happiness is a warm gun.

[m.i.t]

Your starting to sound like Ahmadinejad and Bush.Pure comedy.


man...everytime news agencies reports that" mideastern region is warming..."this is usual headline...

next time they will report ME is " melting "..l think this wouldnt be funny...

[Lion of War]

man...everytime news agencies reports that" mideastern region is warming..."this is usual headline...

next time they will report ME is " melting "..l think this wouldnt be funny...

Why are you reffering to yourself in the third person.If you are melting stay out of the sun :hug:

[m.i.t]

l would be quite happy if nuke armed iran was a country in planet pluton...

so you could explode all off them instead of fireworks in every celebrations...they would be your nukes and your radioactivity...

but lm not sure you know what radioactivity is...

unfortunately iran is neighbour of my country...we dont want a dark nuke race and seeing 2 or 3 headed or 4 armed kids...

no nuke for all world...fisrt israel then iran ...

damn ..iran can start new nuklear cold war...do you think iran will be winner...?

this is not game which has back...

[Lion of War]

We could of made nuclear weaponry during 1979 but dismantled all nuclear facilities.The cold war.Have you seen what is going on all around the world.

[shocker1]

We could of made nuclear weaponry during 1979 but dismantled all nuclear facilities.The cold war.Have you seen what is going on all around the world.
Sir you can now with the facilities you have now. You enrichment facilities are far more advanced than what the US had in the 40's. it is not hard to build weapons anymore and your governments actions over the past twenty years have caused all the suspicion. I think all nations have a right to clean nuclear energy. If that was the case in Iran the last 8 IAEA reports would say so. I think your government hides just as much darkside crap as mine. Only difference is some religious leader is not calling the shots. That is what makes the average American nervous. Though Iran would be rightfully nervous as well. I see fault on all sides here.

[Lion of War]

Sir you can now with the facilities you have now. You enrichment facilities are far more advanced than what the US had in the 40's. it is not hard to build weapons anymore and your governments actions over the past twenty years have caused all the suspicion. I think all nations have a right to clean nuclear energy. If that was the case in Iran the last 8 IAEA reports would say so. I think your government hides just as much darkside crap as mine. Only difference is some religious leader is not calling the shots. That is what makes the average American nervous. Though Iran would be rightfully nervous as well. I see fault on all sides here.

I see your point of view.The average people like us can only wait and see.Please do not call me sir.I have not earned to be called such a title Shocker1.But I thank you for your respect.Bless you.

[Snoshi]

Lion of war.. If Iranian facilities are peacefull then why hide them? After all its not the Iranian government that annouced their construction

[Lion of War]

Lion of war.. If Iranian facilities are peacefull then why hide them? After all its not the Iranian government that annouced their construction

Hiding a building does not constitute a nuclear weaponry program.We have never had a desire to posses them.

Actions speak louder then words.For Eight years Iran was hit almost daily with real Weapons of Mass destruction causing the casualty of 50,000 Iranians from chemical agents.Yet we did not fire back our own salvo's of gas.

[Snoshi]

What about things like this?

ISIS has discovered images of an Iranian site that raises suspicions that Iran is continuing to hide parts of its nuclear program. These images were provided to ABC News for a June 16, 2004 World News Tonight report.

The site in Lavizan-Shian, a northeastern neighborhood of Tehran, has been under investigation since 2003 by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United States, and likely other governments as a potential undeclared nuclear or nuclear-related site. Adding to suspicions, while these investigations were ongoing the buildings were dismantled, rubble carted away, and the ground was scraped between approximately the first of the year and March 2004. The IAEA is continuing to investigate and will likely soon request a visit to the site.

This site first came to public attention in May 2003 when the Iranian opposition group, National Council for Resistance of Iran, announced that the site, called the Lavizan-Shian Technical Research Center, was associated with biological weapons research. They said the Center was affiliated with Malek-Ashtar University and was formed under the Ministry of Defense.

Later, a radiation detection device, called a whole body counter, was discovered to have been delivered to the site from overseas. The equipment itself is not direct evidence of a nuclear weapons program, but it is out of place at a site that was not declared by Iran to have any nuclear activity. Spare parts for the machine were also known to have been sent to the site. These additional pieces of equipment may actually have allowed modifications to the whole body counter that would make it more useful for a nuclear weapons program. However, the actual purpose and current location of the equipment remains unknown.

The site was photographed by DigitalGlobe's Quickbird commercial satellite in August 2003 and March 2004. The first image shows large buildings inside a secure perimeter. In the second image, the buildings were removed and the earth scraped. Even the roads and walkways were removed or covered. To see the images together, click here.

This destruction at the site raised concerns because it is the type of measure Iran would need to take if it was trying to defeat the powerful environmental sampling capabilities of IAEA inspectors. At other sites, less extensive deception measures were employed by Iran, but the inspectors nonetheless discovered traces of enriched uranium, revealing details about activities at the sites and leading Iran to revise its declarations to the IAEA.
http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/11aug03_isis_lav_shi.jpg
http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/22aug04_isis_lav_shi.jpg
http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/10may04lavshi.jpg

[Lion of War]

Sounds like propaganda.

"when the Iranian opposition group, National Council for Resistance of Iran, announced that the site, called the Lavizan-Shian Technical Research Center, was associated with biological weapons research."

[shocker1]

According to the last report Iran does not have much more to do in order to satisfy the Agency. I think after six years of "negotiations" one should ask what is being negotiated. If Iran is following the NPT and cooperating with all IAEA requests then we would not be having this discussion. The reason I say this is because the Iranian Gov brags about it's cooperation in all areas. Yet UNSC resolutions have been ignored and the IAEA is the nuclear treaties investigative arm of the UN. All this adds up to what have you been doing for the past twenty years?

G. Summary
22. The Agency is able to verify the non-diversion of declared nuclear material in Iran. Iran has been
providing the Agency with access to declared nuclear material, and has provided the required nuclear
material accountancy reports in connection with declared nuclear material and facilities. However, the
Agency remains unable to verify certain aspects relevant to the scope and nature of Iran’s nuclear
programme. It should be noted that since early 2006, the Agency has not received the type of
information that Iran had previously been providing, including pursuant to the Additional Protocol, for
example information relevant to ongoing advanced centrifuge research.
23. The work plan is a significant step forward. If Iran finally addresses the long outstanding
verification issues, the Agency should be in a position to reconstruct the history of Iran’s nuclear
programme. Naturally, the key to successful implementation of the agreed work plan is Iran’s full and
active cooperation with the Agency, and its provision to the Agency of all relevant information and
access to all relevant documentation and individuals to enable the Agency to resolve all outstanding
issues. To this end, the Agency considers it essential that Iran adheres to the time line defined therein
and implements all the necessary safeguards and transparency measures, including the measures
provided for in the Additional Protocol.
24. Once Iran’s past nuclear programme has been clarified, Iran would need to continue to build
confidence about the scope and nature of its present and future nuclear programme. Confidence in the
exclusively peaceful nature of Iran’s nuclear programme requires that the Agency be able to provide
assurances not only regarding declared nuclear material, but, equally important, regarding the absence
of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran, through the implementation of the Additional
Protocol. The Director General therefore again urges Iran to ratify and bring into force the Additional
Protocol at the earliest possible date, as requested by the Board of Governors and the Security Council.
25. Contrary to the decisions of the Security Council, Iran has not suspended its enrichment related
activities, having continued with the operation of PFEP, and with the construction and operation of
FEP. Iran is also continuing with its construction of the IR-40 reactor and operation of the Heavy
Water Production Plant.
26. The Director General will continue to report as appropriate.
http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Documents/Board/2007/gov2007-48.pdf

[Lion of War]

Similar to the build up to war with Iraq.If conflicts are started over mere suspicion then these will be some hard times ahead for all of us.

[shocker1]

Similar to the build up to war with Iraq.If conflicts are started over mere suspicion then these will be some hard times ahead for all of us.
Yes it would and this report is not worthy of such action IMO. You will never see me post desire for that. I am however sick of the religious bull **** going on.

[pacifist]

I'm a little worried about all these **** countries trying to posess nuclear weapons.

We're not gonna make it with the way things are going. Possibility of nuclear war looks more and more probable.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

What about things like this?

http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/11aug03_isis_lav_shi.jpg
http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/22aug04_isis_lav_shi.jpg
http://www.isis-online.org/images/iran/10may04lavshi.jpg

Looks like any demolishing of a commercial/industrial complex close to a residential area.

[MichaelF]

After the second nuclear war, there will be a rather large alteration in the way the world powers allow nuclear proliferation....that is, of course, provided there are any technological powers left after that little six minute war.

None of the Second-Tier nuclear powers (China, France and the UK) and below (Israel, Pakistan, India) have the throw-weight to conduct a Counterforce (destroy the enemy missiles) or Countervalue (destroy the enemy civilians) strike.

Accordingly, unless the US and Russia decide to go for broke, it's likely that any nuclear warfare will be at the Tactical/Operational level. Enemy troop concentrations, logistics, transport and C4I hubs, are likely to be the bulk of the targets. Population centers themselves will probably be too irrelevant to waste scarce warheads on (though panic, due to the knowledge that the nukes are in play, is likely to cause breakdowns of law & order in the urban areas).

More of an extended slide into a Twilight War than a 1980's-style 60-minute Gotterdammerung.

[m.i.t]

We could of made nuclear weaponry during 1979 but dismantled all nuclear facilities.The cold war.Have you seen what is going on all around the world.


so it explains why iran try to got their 4K km range missiles...for conventional warheads...???

[Mastermind]

None of the Second-Tier nuclear powers (China, France and the UK) and below (Israel, Pakistan, India) have the throw-weight to conduct a Counterforce (destroy the enemy missiles) or Countervalue (destroy the enemy civilians) strike.

Accordingly, unless the US and Russia decide to go for broke, it's likely that any nuclear warfare will be at the Tactical/Operational level. Enemy troop concentrations, logistics, transport and C4I hubs, are likely to be the bulk of the targets. Population centers themselves will probably be too irrelevant to waste scarce warheads on (though panic, due to the knowledge that the nukes are in play, is likely to cause breakdowns of law & order in the urban areas).

More of an extended slide into a Twilight War than a 1980's-style 60-minute Gotterdammerung.
Realistically, I doubt very seriously any sort of exchange would ever take place unless (big unless) Iran went totally nuts and smuggled a device into a large US city or some Israeli port and actually detonated it. I would suspect something like a mega-9/11 attack where we can blame religous radicals but no real nation. Under such doubts, I think the US would be well served to react conventionally. I have to wonder what might happen should there be multiple nuclear strikes against the US and her allies. I doubt any sitting US president would want to go down in history as the one who rected blindly in a fit of rage and just blasted millions of possibly innocent people into radioactive dust and did irreparable harm to the planet.....Of course, our moderistic paeons of history would never judge the perpetrators as the root cause of such a conflagration.

It just makes sense there would be a rather grave "veto" by both Russia and China of US nuclear retaliation in event of a disaster as described . But, they may license heavy conventional retaliation as a protection against the US having to use full power.

Properly used and targeted conventional weapons can nicely accomplish severe punishments on just about any Iran sized nation. Ports can be isolated, communications stopped, modern infrastructures devastated, borders sealed...starvation sets in....just as many people will die...they just won't glow as much afterward.

Admittedly, I was being overly dramatic for emphasis in my earlier post.

[Atlantic Friend]

The middle east should be nukes free, period.

The entire world should be nuke-free, then. But that isn't going to happen.

One, how would a nuclear power like Israel by disarmed, and by whom ?

Two, how would Israel's security be assured, for having nuclear weapons (or WMDs in general) makes A LOT of sense for this country, who has next to no friends amongst its immediate neighbors, and which, because of its modest size and population, is daily faced with a real threat to its very survival.

[0rphie]

The entire world should be nuke-free, then. But that isn't going to happen.

One, how would a nuclear power like Israel by disarmed, and by whom ?

Two, how would Israel's security be assured, for having nuclear weapons (or WMDs in general) makes A LOT of sense for this country, who has next to no friends amongst its immediate neighbors, and which, because of its modest size and population, is daily faced with a real threat to its very survival.
Are you saying is that all countries with unfriendly neighbors should be allowed to have nuclear weapons?

[Mastermind]

Perhaps we should say, "All nations with unfriendly unstable radical lunatic neighbors who are seeking to obtain nuclear weapons should be nuclear armed."

[9mmRifle]

Exactly! Don't believe that Iranian propaganda for domestic consumption shows true intentions of Iranian government!

And in worst case, if they really want to destroy themselves, somebody will help them.

The whole point is how can we protect our allies if we allow Iran to get Nukes. It will cause a shift in regional powers and the Turks, Saudis etc will argue they have a right to develop their own programs to protect themselves.

[Lambert58]

I'm not a fan of Pre-1979 which was not a free democracy but a dictatorship neither of the current ruling party.Thanks for your enlightening view on your maturity.

I think kitty of war is Jesse Jackson in disguise: plays the race card then you call him on it and you're immature. Gotta be.