25% of Germans believe there were at least some positive aspects to Nazi rule

[Guerrier_Franc]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380579626&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull







A poll published Wednesday showed a quarter of Germans believe there were at least some positive aspects to Nazi rule - a finding that comes after a popular talk show host was fired for praising Nazi Germany's attitude toward motherhood.


Pollsters for the Forsa agency, commissioned by the weekly Stern magazine, asked whether National Socialism also had some "good sides (such as) the construction of the highway system, the elimination of unemployment, the low criminality rate (and) the encouragement of the family."
Forsa said 25 percent responded "yes" - but 70% said "no."
Stern commissioned the survey, conducted Oct. 11-12, after Germany's NDR public broadcaster last month fired talk show host Eva Herman following her statement on the Third Reich.
News reports quoted her as saying at the presentation of her latest book that, while there was "much that was very bad, for example Adolf Hitler," there were good things, "for example the high regard for the mother" under the Nazis.
Since then, Herman, a 48-year-old who has written books urging a return to more traditional gender roles, has stood by her comments.
She later said: "What I wanted to express was that values which also existed before the Third Reich, such as family, children and motherhood, which were supported in the Third Reich, were subsequently done away with by the 68ers" - a reference to 1960s leftists.
Any praise of the 1933-45 Nazi dictatorship is taboo in Germany. The Nazis were responsible for the murder of some six million Jews and starting World War II - a conflict in which at least 60 million people died, including more than seven million Germans.
The poll, which had a margin of error of plus or minus three percentage points, showed that people 60 or older had the highest regard for aspects of the era, with 37% answering "yes." Those who grew up directly after the war, now aged 45 to 59, were the least enthusiastic about the Nazi era, with only 15% responding "yes."



Despite of working memory since 62 years....

[IsraDani]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1192380579626&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

milions of deaths, total destruction of a country and its separation for 50yrs plus a lot of stereotypes about germans.
well, idiots are everywhere.

[NuclearHead]

^Those certainly are bad. But there are also good sides, even if the bad far outweigh the good.

[Switek]

There are plenty of morons worldwide who believe that there were some "positive" aspects of Nazi rules. Germany and Germans themselves aren't an exception.

[gaijinsamurai]

Well, of course it goes without saying that the negatives BY FAR outweighed any positive aspects, but to say they didn't bring some good things, is to deny the truth.
Afterall, they were responsible for the VW Bug.

Stalin's and Mao's iron-fisted rule over their respective countries had positive aspects too (Mao abolished foot-binding of women), but you aren't going to see me say they were great.

[Freibier]

One word: Autobahn :oops:

[lt tahoe]

Come on, how can anyone say "nothing good happened during Nazi rule"? Nobody is saying "the Nazis were the greatest thing to ever happen to Germany", but saying there were no positive things is naive.

[Thor]

I seem to recall that Der Spiegel had a similar poll regarding Hitler in the end of the 1990's and that 70% then said there were some positive aspects regarding his qualities.. I can't remember the specific question though but I think they targeted the older generation.

Quality post right here.

[roland]

depend on what those 25% think was good in Nazi rules. I don't think many think the racist nature of Nazism was the good part of it. And that's what made nazism so "special"

[muck]

One word: Autobahn :oops:
And it was not even invented by the Nazis.

This problem will literally die out when those generations pass away which were the last witnesses of the Nazi era.

There are hardly countries nowaday where it is more difficult for Neonazis and their body of thought to gain political power.
The right wing National Democratic Party is bankrupt, it's latest party convention had to be cancelled.


You want to know what I regard as much more worse? "Die Linke", the successor party of the notorious SED which violently led the GDR police state for more than fourty years, will soon co-rule all states of former East Germany. Inhabitants of the former GDR really think the problems socialism has caused in their life can be solved with socialism - and this is totally contrary to the result of the poll above. Hardly anyone here wants nazism back.

[John_J]

Come on, how can anyone say "nothing good happened during Nazi rule"? Nobody is saying "the Nazis were the greatest thing to ever happen to Germany", but saying there were no positive things is naive.

x 100 .. thats what I say too

[Kitsune]

Stern commissioned the survey, conducted Oct. 11-12, after Germany's NDR public broadcaster last month fired talk show host Eva Herman following her statement on the Third Reich.
News reports quoted her as saying at the presentation of her latest book that, while there was "much that was very bad, for example Adolf Hitler," there were good things, "for example the high regard for the mother" under the Nazis.

That is exactly right. Herman was quoted like this all over the media. Only - she did not say it. She essentially said that because of the way one tries to come to terms with the NS era in Germany, good old fashioned values like the appreciation of motherhood were thrown out of the window as well. But hell, nobody cares. She is simply quoted as if she said that the Third Reich made a good family policy and that is repeated all through the media. Public crucifixion, so to speak. In some regards Germany is not normal, I have to admit.

As far as the question is concerned, it is completely ridiculous and perhaps even a bit unfair. Of course there was something good about those 12 years of Hitler's rule, even logic dictates that. That is completely different from the statement that that its net result was good. The Nazis came to power in a time of economic depression with high unemployment (which back then meaned real misery since there was no social net like today). Only a few years after that there was full employment in Germany, for the majority of the population prosperity grew noticeably, the constant bullying from the victorious powers, especially France, ceased and the Olympic Games in 1936 were fun, too. (And only one years after Hitler came to power he made a non-aggression pact with Poland, later there was the fleet treaty with Britain and the relations to Italy (enemy of Germany in WWI) became real friendly - so at first he seemed actually to better Germany's standing with its neighbours). And as one can hear, sometimes even the sun was shining.
In the same way there was certainly "something" good about Stalin - he industrialized the Sovietunion and turned it into a superpower. Mussolini made the trains go on time in Italy. Mao gave China back to the Chinese. Hell, one day somebody even may find something positive about the rule of GWB....p-)
There is always something positive. That is not the same as to say that it was worth it in the end. And would that question have been asked I doubt that much less than 100% in Germany would have said that it was not.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

My wife's grandparents thought Hitler was a swell guy till the day they died. They were somehow able to see all the positive things that happened to the country, while ignoring/denying all the negatives.

[Nightsky]

Come on, how can anyone say "nothing good happened during Nazi rule"? Nobody is saying "the Nazis were the greatest thing to ever happen to Germany", but saying there were no positive things is naive.

Spot on. It is hardly possible, that a system is in all it's aspect only negative. Obviously the remaining 75% did not use their brains.

You can say a system as a whole was good or bad for a country, but stating there was no positive aspect is pretty dumb and says alot about the reflective abilities of nowadays Germans

[Occam's Razor]

There is always something positive. That is not the same as to say that it was worth it in the end. And would that question have been asked I doubt that much less than 100% in Germany would have said that it was not.

Exactly - it's also the question itself that is asked. You can ask if there were positive aspects, and some people may take that to mean whether or not it was great and awesome.

Nazism is bad and we know this, and with the kind of question that was asked, you're bound to get a lot of kneejerk responses. Especially from Germans who are eager to denounce that Nazi past.

[VPR]

i am not german, but i also think there were some positives during the nazi rule

[Xaito]

If the question is whether there were positive aspects to the Nazi rule then the answer is of course that there were - otherwise there wouldn't have been so much support for the system.
If the question is whether the Nazi rule itself was good then the answer will be different.

[Rictor]

It's ridiculous to think that even the Nazis, widely the most hated regime in history, had no positive aspects to them. It's simply that the bad far outweighed the good, but the good was certainly there.

My guess is that if Hitler had refrained from waging war on Europe, he would today be remembered as an excellent statesmen. Europe's hatred of Hitler at the time was due to his agressive militarism, not his dictatorial tendencies which were being emulated all over the world. It's only after the fact that the world started caring about the Nazi repressive internal policies.

[toki]

The problem: Any positive aspect during the Third Reich had a direct relation to a negative one or was founded on a negative one. You can't separate them. (Kant anyone? Causality - Cause - Effect) Family politics - "awesome", but what about Lebensborn and racial profiling? Youth politics: Summer camps are awesome, but anybody forget the purpose? Low unemployment. Hooray, but Hitler was a fanboy of the new deal bundled with an arms race. As long as it lasted. This couldn't go on forever and needed the upcoming war as a motor.

Picking out positives doesn't work there.
The real question behind this thread and the discussion in Germany is another one: What was lost with the 68er generation. Conservative values and third Reich values are just not the same. People should start to discuss about the sixties and stop thinking about pros and cons of the fourties.

The problems with those 75:25 "Nazi not so bad" statistics is the way questions are asked. It is not expected to answer after deep thoughts but chosing yes or no after a simplified question. And what i learned in a marketing class is that at least 50% of mankind are too dumb to give a second thought to a simple question. (Something like that ;-)).

[dangerclose]

Well they did do their part to reduce global warming.

[toki]

Well they did do their part to reduce global warming.

Wtf are you talking about?

[Freibier]

"The uniforms were so cool that world temperature sank by a couple degrees"

[dangerclose]

Wtf are you talking about?


Calm down Siegfried.

We're always being told that humans cause global warming. Well the nazis certainly did their part to alleviate that.

[toki]

Calm down Siegfried.

We're always being told that humans cause global warming. Well the nazis certainly did their part to alleviate that.

Ok Jim Bob, you made a joke. I missed that.

[muck]

The question is why an entire nation goes on rampage about this. We have a stable and fortified democracy. We have a constitutional state. We live in a prospering society.
Racism and Nazism is a problem in nearly every country, even Poland and Russia, two countries which incredibly suffered during the World War due to Nazism have more severe problems with this than we have.

The far right is weak here, only media's attention make it look like an omnipresent problem - Take the "Hunt of Mügeln" which made it into the news around the globe. It was said that fifty Germans had hunted eight Indians through the town of Mügeln, shouting racist paroles and forced them to barricade themselves in a restaurant. This was the content of the headlines afterwards.
However, it turned out that a group of eight Indians came in an argument with some Germans about one of their girlfriends. The distance to the restaurant were just 8 metres.
Three of the Indian natives and one German have been charged with mayhem after what was a simple pub brawl.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

My wife's grandparents thought Hitler was a swell guy till the day they died. They were somehow able to see all the positive things that happened to the country, while ignoring/denying all the negatives.

IIRC, some members of the previous generation of Russians still reflect positively on Stalin and the Soviet period in general.

[LRPV]

Calm down Siegfried.

We're always being told that humans cause global warming. Well the nazis certainly did their part to alleviate that.


Nice one. I needed to read that on shabbat.:bash:


Let's get back to a decent discussion.

Muck: Out of curiosity, who invented the autobahns..my history fails me as I thought it was a NSDAP program.

[LRPV]

toki, what is the 68er generation? The hippie era? Certainly Australian traditional values took a nose-dive in the late 60s early 70s.

[dimasorokine]

Are the other 75% morons, or brain washed into feeling guilty?

-Dima

[muck]

Muck: Out of curiosity, who invented the autobahns..my history fails me as I thought it was a NSDAP program.
There are three rivalling dates about which historians disagree.

The first street which was supposed to offer the opportunity to travell as quickly as possible was the AVUS in Berlin which was opened in 1921, financed by a private company. However, AVUS was designed to be a race track, too.

A second project, a part of the Autostrada dei Laghi, coming more close to the image of an Autobahn of these days was opened 1924 in Milano, Italy. However, this street still had crossroads.

The first real Autobahn was the A555 from Bonn to Cologne, largely planned and realized by Cologne's mayor Konrad Adenauer who later became the first chancellor of Germany. It was opened 1932, one year before the Nazis.

[Kampfbaer]

Are the other 75% morons, or brain washed into feeling guilty?

-Dima


The second part is done to us for over sixty years now!

[Asheren]

Read biographies of German peoples from that period especialy about time at end of WW1 and just afer that. Most of you propably never heard about term turnip winter 1916/1917.
End of ww1 brought

economic disaster to Germany

a serious loss of man power

near total disrespect for the government

many thousands of armed and disillusioned former soldiers roaming the streets

a civilian population traumatised by the impact of the war
This was all before the anger that was to occur in Germany over the Treaty of Versailles.
When Hitler rised to power Germany had 5 milion unemployment, rampart inflation, crumbling economy due to great depression, Versailles treaty reparations that were impossible to pay for Germany. Hitler basicaly put Germany back in to one piece and in few years turned it to superpower capable of waging one of greatest war in human history. If you morlaity aside for a few seconds Hitler/Nazi achievments were amazing. This doesn't change fact that i wish that devil himself would a... rape every damn nazi every day they are roting in hell.

[Johnny_H02]

Come on, how can anyone say "nothing good happened during Nazi rule"? Nobody is saying "the Nazis were the greatest thing to ever happen to Germany", but saying there were no positive things is naive.

I agree to a certain extent.

[Ddavid]

In the same way there was certainly "something" good about Stalin - he industrialized the Sovietunion and turned it into a superpower. Mussolini made the trains go on time in Italy. Mao gave China back to the Chinese. Hell, one day somebody even may find something positive about the rule of GWB....p-)
There is always something positive. That is not the same as to say that it was worth it in the end. And would that question have been asked I doubt that much less than 100% in Germany would have said that it was not.

Edit: GWB virtue is too make Clinton looks good.

[Stonewall71]

As a friend in Germany once told me, "At 1st Hitler gave them work and food to put on the table, no wonder when he wanted war everybody stood behind him"....

[Kilgor]

Hell, one day somebody even may find something positive about the rule of GWB....p-)
There is always something positive.

He endorses mountain biking :)

See.. easy.

[Kilgor]

Are the other 75% morons, or brain washed into feeling guilty?

-Dima

They probably thought it highly politically incorrect to say yes.

[dimasorokine]

The second part is done to us for over sixty years now!

Yeah, I can imagine that :(

@Kilgor, those are the words I should have used ;)

-Dima

[loganinkosovo]

Only 25%????

I'd of bet that if Herr Schickelgruber marched down the street tomorrow at least 75% would jump right in behind him..... maybe that's just in Bavaria....

[loganinkosovo]

Most of you propably never heard about term turnip winter 1916/1917.


Maybe not....but I have heard of the tulip winter of 1944-45 in
Holland.

[bersaglieri]

Yeah there were positive aspects to the nazis.............in the same way that there are positive aspects to serial killers and paedophiles. They may rape and kill you and your family and steal all you own , but hey - at least THEY felt good for a little while when they did it to you.
Any idiot can claim there were good things about despotic,amoral,psychopathic scumbags.....such as the trains running on time. Damn trains had to run efficiently if they were going to run all those cars one way into sidings in Polish forests and get the mindless to the party meetings. If it's regular and reliable you want I can arrange to turn up on your doorstep and smack you in the face every day just to hammer home the lesson.

Elimination of unemployment? Well if you set the entire country to making and wearing uniforms and weapons , I guess you could claim to have done that , and any that don't join in - just kill.

Low criminality rate? There's a joke , given that every order and act of the government was a crime...but again , just kill folks.

Encouragement of the family? Gotta have lots of little Hermans to replace all the big ones sacrificed on the altar of "Adolf says jump".

[Aztec Eagle]

Nazi Germany was with out doubt had good things that came out if it BUT the bad aspects of it out weights the good many,many times over...

I have been told by my family that my Grandfather on my dads side wich i never got to meet ,he was at the time of pre WW2 and after very much in support of the views of the National Socialist Party and that he use to think that the German example it was a perfect form of goverment for a undisiplined country like Mexico.

One thing my Grandfather never imagined was that the most popular Nazi product the ¨Peoples Car¨would be the perfect car for Mexico...


http://beetlelastedition.com/images/sedan2.jpg http://beetlelastedition.com/images/sedan1.jpg

http://www.k-ue.de/galerie/mitglieder_mexico/mexico_075.jpg http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album360/abd.sized.jpg (http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/album360/abd?full=1)


http://www.pzg.biz/6083.jpghttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:UX-UnAToVxeXHM:http://thegiganticheartlessmultinationalcorporation.com/1595c8c30.gif (http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://thegiganticheartlessmultinationalcorporation.com/1595c8c30.gif&imgrefurl=http://thegiganticheartlessmultinationalcorporation.com/id353.htm&h=195&w=200&sz=39&hl=en&start=14&sig2=wkMUO7O_AdrX6vkWJOfMqQ&um=1&tbnid=UX-UnAToVxeXHM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=104&ei=2WQkR7W8LoHAgQOg-4yyCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBayer%2Baspirin%2BNazi%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX)



Volkswagen VW BUG


Olympic Rings and the true modern day Olympic Games some historians
http://www.pzg.biz/rings.gif Berlin 1936 Nazi Olympics
The torch relay, which culminated in Friday's ceremonial lighting of the Flame at the Olympic Stadium, was a creation of Adolf Hitler, who tried to turn the 1936 Berlin Games into a celebration of the Third Reich, others say that it was Pierre de Ferdinand in 1913 but hes design is difrent from the original colored rings.



http://www.voanews.com/serbian/images/Bayer-Aspirin.jpg All dough Bayer was establish in 1863 by Fredirich Bayer Nazi Germany made it into a international company wich served the interest of Germany.

Bayer has discovered, among others:http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Lrq5ywP9Ze_wYM:http://www.thegreatboycott.net/bayer.gif (http://images.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thegreatboycott.net/bayer.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.thegreatboycott.net/&h=47&w=46&sz=1&hl=en&start=15&sig2=ctZmejd7aC8TF9fWwJCZRg&um=1&tbnid=Lrq5ywP9Ze_wYM:&tbnh=47&tbnw=46&ei=2WQkR7W8LoHAgQOg-4yyCA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBayer%2Baspirin%2BNazi%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX)

Aspirin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin) — a pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_nociception) reliever, arguably the most successful drug ever
Heroin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin) (diacetylmorphine) — an addictive drug, originally sold as a cough treatment, and arguably the most successful illegal drug ever. Heroin was a Bayer trademark, until World War I.
Methadone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methadone)
****tosil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****tosil) as the first sulfonamide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfonamide)
Mustard gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustard_gas) — a blister-causing chemical weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapon)
Tabun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_%28nerve_gas%29) — a nerve agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerve_agent)
Ciprfloxacin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciprofloxacin) — an antibiotic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic) used to treat anthrax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax) and urinary tract infections.
Levitra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levitra) — a treatment for Erectile Dysfunction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectile_Dysfunction)
Polyurethane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyurethane) — a very versatile polymer for a wide variety of applications
Polycarbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarbonate) — the material of the CD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc), Lego (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego) etc. (Makrolon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makrolon))
Suramin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suramin)Space flight

In the mid-1920s, German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic) scientists began experimenting with rockets powered by liquid propellants that were capable of reaching relatively high altitudes and distances. In 1932, the Reichswehr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichswehr), predecessor of the Wehrmacht (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht), took an interest in rocketry for long-range artillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery) fire. Wernher von Braun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun), an aspiring rocket scientist, joined the effort and developed such weapons for Nazi Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany)'s use in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). Von Braun borrowed heavily from Robert Goddard's original research, studying and improving on Goddard's rockets.
The German A-4 Rocket, launched in 1942, became the first such projectile to reach space. In 1943, Germany began production of its successor, the V-2 rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-2_rocket), with a range of 300 kilometers (185 mi) and carrying a 1,000 kilogram (2,200 lb) warhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhead). The Wehrmacht fired thousands of V-2s at Allied nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II), causing massive damage and loss of life. V2s were even more deadly for the slave laborers forced to produce them—more died making them at Mittelbau Dora Concentration Camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelbau-Dora) than were killed with the attacks.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_race#_note-Mittelbau_The_Human_Cost)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_race#_note-Mittelbau_Dora_Concentration_Camp)
As World War II drew to a close, U.S., UK and Soviet military and scientific crews raced to capture technology and trained personnel from the German rocket program installation at Peenemünde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peenem%C3%BCnde). The United Kingdom and the Soviet Union had some success, but the United States arguably benefited most, taking a large number of German rocket scientists — many of them members of the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party), including von Braun — from Germany to the United States as part of Operation Paperclip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip). American scientists adapted the German rockets for use against hostile nations and other uses. Post-war scientists, including von Braun, turned to rockets to study high-altitude conditions of temperature and pressure of the atmosphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_atmosphere), cosmic rays (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray), and other topics.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Wernher_von_Braun.jpg/250px-Wernher_von_Braun.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wernher_von_Braun.jpg) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Bumper8_launch-GPN-2000-000613.jpg/300px-Bumper8_launch-GPN-2000-000613.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bumper8_launch-GPN-2000-000613.jpg)


German AUTOBAHN

To say that the German Autobahn is not a Nazi achievement is like saying that the Wright Bros. did not invented the airplane just because there were some partially succesfull attempts in flight before them, a modern well design and establish Autobahn was not posible before in Germany only because Germany was broke at the time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg/230px-German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg)

Good things that came out of Nazi Germany can you guys think of any more?

[muck]

Only 25%????

I'd of bet that if Herr Schickelgruber marched down the street tomorrow at least 75% would jump right in behind him..... maybe that's just in Bavaria....



Crap. Contrary to some other state diet's, the browns had never one single seat here in Bavaria.

The most Neonazis you'll find in Eastern Germany and some in the Rhineland area. However, they had never any real importance and even their faction in Saxony is blowing over at the moment because it's members become jailed in series.

In fact, in Germany with approximately 83 million inhabitants there happen less far-right-motivated violence crimes than in France with 64 million or even in Poland with 38 million. If you don't believe, check Europols crime statistics.

[Freibier]

Only 25%????

I'd of bet that if Herr Schickelgruber marched down the street tomorrow at least 75% would jump right in behind him..... maybe that's just in Bavaria....


Bavaria was the state that opened fire on Hitlers cronies when they tried their coup, Blödmann

[Dodge]

Contrary to popular belief, Mussolini did not make the trains run on time.

[muck]

Bavaria was the state that opened fire on Hitlers cronies when they tried their coup, Blödmann
Exactly.
However, Bavaria is also the state of the Brauhaus, of Landsberg and of Berchtesgaden.
Still, the Bavarians are commonly too conservative, too religious and probably also to proud to be impressed by Nazism.

[Freibier]

Exactly.
However, Bavaria is also the state of the Brauhaus, of Landsberg and of Berchtesgaden.
Still, the Bavarians are commonly too conservative, too religious and probably also to proud to be impressed by Nazism.
Well, Adolf liked it here. Bavaria is so beautiful, even a crazy dictator can fall in love with it ;)
Especially when he grew up a few kilometers on ze wrong side of ze border

[muck]

But the people in the Brauhaus liked him, too, and the already facist authorites of Landsberg granted both a short sentence and his early release from imprisonment.

Truth must stay truth.

[Freibier]

I didn't say he had no support here ...
But Bavaria wasn't the prototype nazi state within Germany as loganinkosovo seems to think

[Thor]

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/3238/k6573cc4.gif


Princeton University Press

The Nazi War on Cancer
Robert N. Proctor

Winner of the 1999 Arthur Viseltear Prize for the History of Public Health in America, presented by the Medical Care Section of the American Public Health Association.

Collaboration in the Holocaust. Murderous and torturous medical experiments. The "euthanasia" of hundreds of thousands of people with mental or physical disabilities. Widespread sterilization of "the unfit." Nazi doctors committed these and countless other atrocities as part of Hitler's warped quest to create a German master race. Robert Proctor recently made the explosive discovery, however, that Nazi Germany was also decades ahead of other countries in promoting health reforms that we today regard as progressive and socially responsible. Most startling, Nazi scientists were the first to definitively link lung cancer and cigarette smoking. Proctor explores the controversial and troubling questions that such findings raise: Were the Nazis more complex morally than we thought? Can good science come from an evil regime? What might this reveal about health activism in our own society? Proctor argues that we must view Hitler's Germany more subtly than we have in the past. But he also concludes that the Nazis' forward-looking health activism ultimately came from the same twisted root as their medical crimes: the ideal of a sanitary racial utopia reserved exclusively for pure and healthy Germans.

Author of an earlier groundbreaking work on Nazi medical horrors, Proctor began this book after discovering documents showing that the Nazis conducted the most aggressive antismoking campaign in modern history. Further research revealed that Hitler's government passed a wide range of public health measures, including restrictions on asbestos, radiation, pesticides, and food dyes. Nazi health officials introduced strict occupational health and safety standards, and promoted such foods as whole-grain bread and soybeans. These policies went hand in hand with health propaganda that, for example, idealized the Führer's body and his nonsmoking, vegetarian lifestyle. Proctor shows that cancer also became an important social metaphor, as the Nazis portrayed Jews and other "enemies of the Volk" as tumors that must be eliminated from the German body politic.

This is a disturbing and profoundly important book. It is only by appreciating the connections between the "normal" and the "monstrous" aspects of Nazi science and policy, Proctor reveals, that we can fully understand not just the horror of fascism, but also its deep and seductive appeal even to otherwise right-thinking Germans.

Reviews:

"The Nazi war on cancer? Other readers may be as incredulous as I was when this book came to my attention. We think of Hitler's regime as waging war on nations and peoples, not on behalf of public health. But good historical work surprises us by recovering forgotten facets of the past. Robert N. Proctor, a veteran historian of science who teaches at Pennsylvania State University, has produced a book full of surprises."--Michael Sherry, New York Times Book Review

"The Nazi War on Cancer is a provocative and powerful book. It presents a great deal of research in an accessible, even breezy style and makes important contributions both to the history of medicine and to our understanding of fascism's many dimensions."--Paul Lerner, The Times Higher Education Supplement

"[A] fascinating book . . . . Proctor's account is outstanding . . . A generation ago, Hannah Arendt increased the world's understanding of Nazi behavior (and caused a lot of controversy) by talking about the 'banality of evil.' Robert N. Proctor has now brought us a concept nearly as unsettling, the 'banality of good.'"--David Brown, Washington Post Book World

"Well documented and highly readable. . . . This is an important book which will encourage the reader to reflect on the ways in which medical science was conducted and used in the twentieth century."--Nature

"In his forthcoming book, Robert B. Proctor suggests that Nazi researchers were the first to recognize the connection between cancer and cigarettes. The prevailing view was that British and American scientists established the lung-cancer link during the early 1950's. In fact says Proctor, 'the Nazis conducted world-class studies in the field.' But their findings, because of the abhorrent medical practices used by the regime, were ignored. Hitler, a teetotaling vegetarian, believed healthy living advanced the master race; Jews, Gypsies and smokers soiled the purity of the nation."--David Spitz, Time Magazine
Books like these.

[muck]

Well, they only researched in this direction to strengthen the German masterrace not because they were so good people...

[Macs.]

German AUTOBAHN

To say that the German Autobahn is not a Nazi achievement is like saying that the Wright Bros. did not invented the airplane just because there were some partially succesfull attempts in flight before them, a modern well design and establish Autobahn was not posible before in Germany only because Germany was broke at the time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg/230px-German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:German_Autobahn_1936_1939.jpg)


The first Autobahn was built in order of Adenauer, then major of Cologne. When Hitler build "his" Autobahn he simply downgraded the old one to a "normal" road.

[muck]

@Macs.

p-) This question was answered before!


There are three rivalling dates about which historians disagree.

The first street which was supposed to offer the opportunity to travell as quickly as possible was the AVUS in Berlin which was opened in 1921, financed by a private company. However, AVUS was designed to be a race track, too.

A second project, a part of the Autostrada dei Laghi, coming more close to the image of an Autobahn of these days was opened 1924 in Milano, Italy. However, this street still had crossroads.

The first real Autobahn was the A555 from Bonn to Cologne, largely planned and realized by Cologne's mayor Konrad Adenauer who later became the first chancellor of Germany. It was opened 1932, one year before the Nazis.

[Thor]

Well, they only researched in this direction to strengthen the German masterrace not because they were so good people...
You mean there's really a practical difference today?


No one cares about researching for medicines for third world diseases.

[Atlantic Friend]

depend on what those 25% think was good in Nazi rules. I don't think many think the racist nature of Nazism was the good part of it. And that's what made nazism so "special"

Exactly. The question was open enough for a lot of people to think "okay, the end of the recession", or "okay, the end of the unemployment".