Preview of "Katyn" movie in Moscow

[Mishka Zubov]

Subsequent screening of "Katyń" in Moscow
2007-10-28 10:20

Wajda's movie will be screened in Moscow today

The movie "Katyń" will be shown again today in the movie theater of the Polish Embassy in Moscow. Its yesterday's first screening, which was organized for people engaged in culture, foreign diplomats and human rights advocates, has made a great impression on the viewers.

A chief of Polish Institute in Moscow, Hieronim Grala, expressed his wish in the interview with the Polish Radio that the movie "Katyń" will reach as great a number of viewers in Russia as possible. He added that the reviews in Russian media had been mostly positive. The daily "Izvestya" wrote that

"The tragedy of Polish officers and soldiers is only a part of the movie. One feels no less emotional watching the way the Poles had been trying to go with their life after the war.""Poles, forgive us!" - said yesterday Sergey Kovalov, a known Russian dissident and human rights advocate, after watching the movie. After the final execution scene, when the viewers suddenly saw a black screen, the audience became silent. The silence lasted for several dozens of seconds. Later - also in silence - people began slowly leaving the theater. Many had tears in their eyes. An older woman felt dizzy and has slumped in a chair.

"The movie is worth of the event, which it describes" - noticed visibly moved Kovalov. "Poles, forgive us! Not only the communists are guilty. We are also guilty because we are the majority. We, the Russians, were then the majority here. These were we who had allowed for those events to happen. Forgive us!" - said the former spokesman for the citizen rights in Russia.

Professor Lebedeva, who has first discovered proofs in Russian archives that NKVD was responsible for the murders of Polish officers, admitted that the movie has freaked her out. "The movie has freaked me out, even though I know - more than anyone else - almost everything about Katyń. Historically faithful and artistically powerful. It does not leave anyone neutral even for a second. One feels a heartache all the time" - said she.

Lebedeva was stressing that "this is a tragedy of the Polish nation as well as the Russian nation." "The tragedy because such terrible regime existed. God forbid for something like this to happen again. For us, the Russians, the Katyń tragedy is as important as for the Poles. We should remember this forever" - said she.

Another historian, Inessa Yazhborovska, expressed her hope that "Russian viewers will see that movie." "The image is designed, first of all, for the Russian viewer. This is important because there had been so many lies about this subject. This will be useful for the Russian public opinion" - she noted.

"This is how it was" - said a former military prosecutor, a retired general Alexandr Tretetzki. "I already said 17 years ago - on September 27, 1990, when I was put in charge of investigation of the murder of Polish officers - that the investigation had to be comprehensive, objective and full. And we had worked that way - for the justice to be satisfied" - said Tretetzki.

"The entire truth must be exposed and the full stop set. Everyone should understand and accept what had happened. Understand and accept" - stressed the former prosecutor.

According to sources close to Polish Institute in Moscow - the official presentation of the Wajda's movie in Russia is planned for March the 5th, 2008 - an anniversary of the Stalin's order to murder the Polish officers (March 5, 1940).
source: http://www.tvn24.pl/-1,1526399,wiadomosc.html
translated by MZ
dug by Switek

[btdown]

bardzo slaby mowie po polsku....

Has anyone seen a torrent of this with english subtitles?

dzkejuke kurwi

[Catch22]

Whoever learned you this last word made some fun out of you.

"dziękuję" is just "thank you"

"kurwa" litterally means "whore" or "slut"

Go figure...

[btdown]

lol i know...i just thougt it would liven up the place.....

"Thanks Bitche$! was what i was aiming for...


Peace out to my Lodz homies!

[Catch22]

Hehe, then just be advised that it doesn't translate directly, and what you wrote was utterly offensive - at level of "thanks motherf_ckers!" ;-)

And back to the topic, I guess there was no official release of "Katyń" for foreign distribution in english version, so you'll have to wait a moment.

[MZKT]

Sergey Kovalov, the hero of Ichkeria is saying "forgive us" to poles. Hmm, who are "us"? Wahhabits? Obviously not russians who he fought just few years ago.

[Mishka Zubov]

Russian screening of “Katyń” movie

Created: Monday, October 29. 2007

The Monday Russian “Gazieta” daily reports on the first screening of the Andrzej Wajda “Katyń” movie in Russia, that took place last Saturday in the screening room of the Polish embassy in Moscow.

The daily stressed that “Wajda primarily wanted to show the truth about Katyń; complicating relations between Poland and Russia was the least of his intentions.”

The daily reminds that „the initiator of the official investigation into Katyń and an active supporter of the Russian-Polish reconciliation was the former political advisor to president Boris Yeltsin, Siergiej Stankiewicz.”

According to Stankiewicz, Wajda’s reputation in the world and in Russia is such, that it is going to be hard to claim that the movie is another ‘anti-Russian’ stunt”.

“Wajda’s film gives the Russian side a unique opportunity for a reconciliatory end to the debate about Katyń,” Stankiewicz told the “Gazieta”
source: http://www.thenews.pl/archives/1599-Russian-screening-of-Katy-movie.html

[Mishka Zubov]

"Gazyeta": "Katyń" will reconcile us

cheko, PAP
2007-10-29

http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/5/4486/z4486165Z.jpg
A frame from movie "Katyń""Katyń that will reconcile us" - this is how the Monday's edition of "Gazyeta" heads up its coverage of the first screening of the Andrzej Wajda's movie "Katyń", which took place last Saturday in a movie theater of Polish Embassy in Moscow.

The Moscow's daily notices that "after the Warsaw's premiere the Polish Ministry of Education suggested its mandatory inclusion into history courses."

"But in Russia - quite opposite - the movie has been received quite coldly. The state TV 'Russia Today', for example, found that the movie 'rekindles enmity' between Russia and Poland and was - in general - too biased" - writes "Gazyeta".

"Complicating relations between Poland and Russia was the least of Wajda's intentions.”

The daily explains that "the reason for such assessment was a fragment where Soviet soldiers teared a Polish flag for foot-clouts".

"An execution scene of Polish officers by NKVD officers has been purposely shot in a very naturalistic way; it lasts at least five minutes and it does not omit any detail of the slaughter" - adds "Gazyeta".

The daily notes that "Wajda's main goal was to show the truth about Katyń, and that complicating relations between Poland and Russia was the least of his intentions."

"Gazyeta" reminds that „the initiator of the official investigation into Katyń and an active supporter of the Russian-Polish reconciliation was the former political advisor to president Boris Yeltsin (in early 90s), Siergiej Stankiewicz.”

"The Wajda's movie provides for possibility of reconciliatory ending of the debate around Katyń."

"According to Stankiewicz, Wajda’s reputation in the world and in Russia is such, that it will be hard to ignore the movie or find it as yet another ‘anti-Russian’ stunt” - writes the daily.

"The Wajda's movie gives the Russian side the unique opportunity of reconciliatory ending of the debate around Katyń, and of public voicing of few honest and courageous words" - quotes "Gazyeta" the former Kremlin official, and earlier one of the democratic opposition leaders in Russia.

The daily adds that "according to Stankiewicz this is how - following international practices - civilized countries achieve closures of such matters."

source: http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,4621756.html
translated by MZ

[DRA]

"Poles, forgive us!" - said yesterday Sergey Kovalov, a known Russian dissident and human rights advocate,You see Poles, having scumbags like Sergej Kovalev on your side will only make Russians dislike you even more.
So if any of you were looking to get any sympathy or compassion because of this movie in Russia - that guy killed any chance of it:grin:

[Mishka Zubov]

How predictable!

I have been hesitating for some time before opening this thread. One of my worries were possible reactions like this. I had no intention to waste my time on running any background check on any Russian names involved in the stories I translate, and then censor the ones that are politically or socially unacceptable to some readers. Whoever Kovalov is, he was part of the audience and he was entitled to voice his views. I cannot change it.

This is your internal problem, not mine. I only hope that you have your own opinions, not clouded by whoever sits with you in the audience.

[RomanS]

This is your internal problem, not mine. I only hope that you have your own opinions, not clouded by whoever sits with you in the audience.

Than mister kovalev should of rephrased himself with

"Poles, forgive me!"

I also dont understand what he means by "us" ?

[Switek]

Than mister kovalev should of rephrased himself with

"Poles, forgive me!"

I also dont understand what he means by "us" ?

We Poles do not treat this (Katyń massacre affair and its further impact on Polish-Russian relations) as lose/win competition but a situation where both sides can win their own part of the history. Seems that Kovalov and some of Russian elite underestand this.

[RomanS]

We Poles do not treat this (Katyń massacre affair and its further impact on Polish-Russian relations) as lose/win competition but a situation where both sides can win their own part of the history. Seems that Kovalov and some of Russian elite underestand this.

Right,

But he shouldnt speak for everyone. I and many people I know, have nothing to do with Katyn.

I dont expect Macs tell us "Soviets, please forgive us."

if you know what i mean

[Switek]

I know but I find Kovalev words rather emotional and I do not want to draw any unwarranted conclusions from what he said.

[Switek]

And one opinion I'd like to share with you after a deep consideration... I think that Poles do not expect any official statement "we (Russians) are sorry for that massacre" or "forgive us". Not at all. We'd like you to know why this case is so important for us and be grateful if you'd like to know our point of view and let us to know all the thruth an know the names of those who executed Stalin's order. In behalf of thosands of Poles who lost their lives (like milions of others) under unhuman stalinist regime.

[koutch]

Kovalev was happy that the New Years Eve siege of Grozny failed. While the city was covered in russian soldier's corpses he was celebrating with his gang. Oh what a humanist...
Back to the subject : I'd like to see this movie.

[DeltaWhisky58]

I'm only going to post this one warning - keep this on topic.

[CPL Trevoga]

And one opinion I'd like to share with you after a deep consideration... I think that Poles do not expect any official statement "we (Russians) are sorry for that massacre" or "forgive us". Not at all. We'd like you to know why this case is so important for us and be grateful if you'd like to know our point of view and let us to know all the thruth an know the names of those who executed Stalin's order. In behalf of thosands of Poles who lost their lives (like milions of others) under unhuman stalinist regime.

I'm sure that during of preview of "1612" in Warsawa some will cry out, "Forgive us Russians for occupation!!!"

[rhino]

I'm sure that during of preview of "1612" in Warsawa some will cry out, "Forgive us Russians for occupation!!!"

more then likely, is there such movie??

I would looooove to see them both

damn, 1612 looks like a great movie, got to see it now

[Switek]

I'm sure that during of preview of "1612" in Warsawa some will cry out, "Forgive us Russians for occupation!!!"


Nope, becouse of the very bad end of Michał Żebrowski (http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/1/4633/z4633401X.jpg) in that movie.p-)

[daily666]

Wajda says "Katyn" is not an Anti-Russian movie. It's somehow personal for him because his father died there.

And it's the same story with 1612, Vladimir Chotinienko, the director, also said that this movie is not Anti-Polish, he has so many Polish friends and Polish actors played major roles in it. I'd love to see it because from what I see it's done very well.

Guys it these terms "Saving Private Ryan" and every other major Holywood production would be anti-German.

[Adax]

Yep.
I've found a movie on Youtube with most important scene(SPOILER) of Katyń, if you want to watch - enjoy it. Although it has good polish music(Czesław Niemen), I think it's neccecery - monotonny(this movie on Youtube, ofcourse).

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRfnK4pDA8

[rhino]

Yep.
I've found a movie on Youtube with most important scene(SPOILER) of Katyń, if you want to watch - enjoy it. Although it has good polish music(Czesław Niemen), I think it's neccecery - monotonny.

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRfnK4pDA8


making of the movie was unavoidable, and necessary

thanks for posting the link

niezapomnimy/niezabudu nikagda

[Drako]

Here noone expects from any Russian to say "forgive us" as we know no Russian feels guilty for it - Stalin ordered it and he's dead so we can't do anything about it. Wheater that point of view is valid or not is not for me to decide but for peaople who have gone through all of that.


"This is how it was" - said a former military prosecutor, a retired general Alexandr Tretetzki. "I already said 17 years ago - on September 27, 1990, when I was put in charge of investigation of the murder of Polish officers - that the investigation had to be comprehensive, objective and full. And we had worked that way - for the justice to be satisfied" - said Tretetzki.

"The entire truth must be exposed and the full stop set. Everyone should understand and accept what had happened. Understand and accept" - stressed the former prosecutor.


I think above words are more important than Kovalev's words. Movie is real and it really important. As to "1612" - yesterday I read an article where some Russian historian stated that in that movie the only historical facts are that tzar's son and wife were killed and that the Poles were in Kremlin. According to her the rest is pure fiction. We'll see.

[chulo_allen]

Yep.
I've found a movie on Youtube with most important scene(SPOILER) of Katyń, if you want to watch - enjoy it. Although it has good polish music(Czesław Niemen), I think it's neccecery - monotonny.

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=lRRfnK4pDA8

anyone know what that song is? and i swear there is an english version of it.. or one that sounds JUST like it

[Adax]

It's Czesław Niemen "Dziwny jest ten świat" (Strange Is This World)

[Switek]

anyone know what that song is? and i swear there is an english version of it.. or one that sounds JUST like it

"Strange Is This World (http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/czeslaw_niemen/strange_is_this_world/)" by Czesław Niemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czesław_Niemen)

[chulo_allen]

It's Czesław Niemen "Dziwny jest ten świat" (Strange Is This World)

"Strange Is This World (http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/czeslaw_niemen/strange_is_this_world/)" by Czesław Niemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czes%C5%82aw_Niemen)

thanks guys.. great song.. are u sure there isnt an english one where they use the same hook?

[Herrmannek]

thanks guys.. great song.. are u sure there isnt an english one where they use the same hook?

There is. Niemen copycated the music, but I don't remember original title...

here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgVLCzt81dw

[Adax]

thanks guys.. great song.. are u sure there isnt an english one where they use the same hook?
AFAIK there is/was english version of this song, but I couldn't find it anywhere :(

As, for Katyń movie - it's really great and sad movie, and I think it's NOT anti-Russian, and there's even a good soviet soldier, who helps a Pole. I hope the movie will be seen in the West.

[chulo_allen]

There is. Niemen copycated the music, but I don't remember original title...

here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgVLCzt81dw

AFAIK there is/was english version of this song, but I couldn't find it anywhere :(

As, for Katyń movie - it's really great and sad movie, and I think it's NOT anti-Russian, and there's even a good soviet soldier, who helps a Pole. I hope the movie will be seen in the West.
thanks.. and it also reminders me of http://youtube.com/watch?v=imrfo-uRjcE Portishead -- but thats all off topic..

[Herrmannek]

Look at the chronology... "Strange is this world" is over 30 years old. The one you posted I think is a newer piece... maybe inspired by the style of the aforementioned music. Ok Lets back to topic. Haven't seen the movie yet. And I think I could not like it. I don't like the director(this changed in the last years I've been here on the forum).

[Switek]

polishfighter (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=54222), your generalization makes me sick, seriously. I can assure you that during WW2 (and many years after the end) war and regular crimes were done by soldiers from all sides...

[Switek]

polishfighter, you must be endless stupid posting such offensive post again. You must be very young, as well, but this is no excuse in that case. Post reported.

[daily666]

Eehhh , I miss the DAOTW and SAKOTW awards don't exist anymore.

[Switek]

I'm afraid some cases are just incurable. :(

[domokun]

I'm afraid some cases are just incurable. :(

Inteweb trolldom is hard to cure. Still I can't understand why some people come up with all these necro-threads.

[Digimon]

Without a doubt, Kovalev was not performing an act of apology—he was asking for an actual forgiveness (an emotional and cognitive response) on the part of the Polish people. The difference can be best put in terms of a distinction between prelocutionary and illocutionary speech acts: certain speech acts are performed primarily for the sake of psychological consequences in the audience (requests, pleadings, informing, persuading)—others have significance irrespective of such consequences (declaring war, proclaiming national independence, declaring someone husband and wife, etc.--so called performative acts). Clearly, assessing the significance of an act (in this case whether it was a request for forgiveness or a ‘performative’ act of apology) is not independent of the assessment of the actor. Declaring a couple as a husband and wife can be performative only if the speaker has appropriate credentials (priest, judge, etc., but not construction worker); declaring war, declaring a store open for business, or extending apology are performative only on the part of those who are appropriately empowered. Kovolev’s speech can be no more an act of apology than it can be a declaration of war (his intentions are quite irrelevant to the significance of his speech acts); to criticize him for not being appropriately empowered or sufficiently representative is fundamentally as reasonable as criticizing my nephew for declaring a war on Fiji. Such criticism is based on a confusion of various aspects of linguistic use. One might plead for forgiveness and yet not perform an apology (as in “forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.”)

Yet, the apology raises interesting, although politically charged (and old), question: under what circumstances can the citizens of the country be morally responsible for the actions of their government? It seems that one of the conditions is that the authorities of the state are representative of the (free) citizenry and can be legitimately said to be acting in their name; in other words, the state must be democratic. One can hardly hold morally responsible (and courts typically do not) a person who had either been brainwashed or forced to perform reprehensible acts under a serious threat. One can argue on good grounds that Stalinist Soviet Union cannot satisfy this democratic condition (although as the state became less repressive this condition would be met to a greater extent). Yet, clearly, not every apology is a recognition of moral responsibility for an act—some apologies are a recognition of one’s regrettable even though unintentional role in some reprehensible act (an apology for accidently bumping into someone in a crowded metro is one example). In this case, since the act is unintentional (not a result of free, cognitive choice) one is causally but not morally responsible for the harmful results.

The question is what kind of apology is expected (if expected at all) from the Russian state and the Russian people?

[Switek]

Digimon, with all respect... reading third sentence I started feel confused. Wft is your point?

[Digimon]

Digimon, with all respect... reading third sentence I started feel confused. Wft is your point?

The first point was that criticism of Kovalev as doing something inappropriate (expressed by some members) is unfounded: one can plead for forgiveness of the nation and yet not apologize on its behalf (this conclusion was based on Austin’s analysis of speech acts, which, I admit, is a bit hard to make clear in a few sentences).

The second point was that there are different forms of apology that imply different things, which typically are not clearly distinguished: one implies moral responsibility (requires intent); the other implies causal responsibility (requires causal role). I suggested that Russian people as a whole could only be held morally responsible—hence appropriate apology might be expected--if the authorities intentionally performing atrocities on their behalf were democratically elected (which they were not). One can, however, hold the Russian people responsible in a causal way (just as a person might be responsible for accidently killing someone) even though the authorities were not representing the people; in this case one can demand an apology from the Russian people as a whole that recognizes its causal (but not moral) responsibility for the tragedy (e.g. apology one makes for inadvertently causing harm). The last question was meant to point out that debates about need for apology and refusal to apologize (not only in relation to Russia but other governments as well) continue because they fail to heed this distinction and are not clear about what kind of apology is demanded in each case.

I mean neither to defend Russia nor belittle the tragedy—this is not a case of special pleading on behalf of Russian people or attempt to clear them of moral responsibility because “Russians can do not wrong.” Perhaps raising a philosophical point in the context of this event is insensitive and inappropriate—in such case I want to make clear that I meant no offense (the act itself was clearly immoral and atrocious). My interest is not politicized: we might have as well argued about the issues of apologies by the US government for policies of segregation or the Canadian government for the abuse of native children. I am curious about what political apologies mean and what they imply in terms of moral responsibility. I am quite open to arguments to the contrary—my opinion is not set in stone. However, if this is too offensive or strays too far off the topic, then please ignore my post.

[Switek]

Digimon, From my own perspective the act of apology is a secondary matter. I don't find a Katyń Massacre as a separate case but as a part of many others Stalinist's crimes or more widely: communist crimes. The difference is that Polish army, police, border security officers and civil agents were taken as POW's and were citizens of other country and murdered.

The most important is just admittance of the truth, that this crime was done by NKVD to copmlete direct Stalin order. The next thing is sentence the case and those who were responsible to make this real.

As long as those has not happened yet there will remain only ... apologies (in moral sense).

[Digimon]

Digimon, From my own perspective the act of apology is a secondary matter. I don't find a Katyń Massacre as a separate case but as a part of many others Stalinist's crimes or more widely: communist crimes. The difference is that Polish army, police, border security officers and civil agents were taken as POW's and were citizens of other country and murdered.

The most important is just admittance of the truth, that this crime was done by NKVD to copmlete direct Stalin order. The next thing is sentence the case and those who were responsible to make this real.

As long as those has not happened yet there will remain only ... apologies (in moral sense).

I agree. But have they not admitted it some time in the 90’s? I must profess some ignorance on this issue.

[Switek]

I agree. But have they not admitted it some time in the 90’s? I must profess some ignorance on this issue.

It was admitted in official level but there is still strong support of the thesis that it was Nazi crime, in Russia.

[eugenlitwin]

bardzo slaby mowie po polsku....

Has anyone seen a torrent of this with english subtitles?

dzkejuke kurwi

LOL, you make my day"!!

swidish: http://tankafett.com/index.php?full=8231