Lessons in hate found at leading mosques.

[Lazy Lob]

And the government allows this. I sometimes wonder if our government actually does anything at all.

Oh hang on....what was King Abdullah saying?


From The Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2767252.ece


Lessons in hate found at leading mosques
Regents Park Mosque
Sean O’Neill, Security Editor

Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain’s leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.

Some of the fundamentalist works were found at the bookshop in the London Central mosque in Regent’s Park, which is funded by the Saudi regime and is regularly visited by government ministers. Its director, Ahmad al-Dubayan, is also a Saudi diplomat and was among those greeting King Abdullah when he arrived in Britain last night for his official state visit.

Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions.

More than 80 books and pamphlets were collected during a year-long project in which researchers visited 100 mosques across Britain.

One book, Fatawa Islamiyah, which urges the execution of apostates, was found in bookshops at Regent’s Park mosque and at the huge East London mosque in Whitechapel. Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), is the chairman of the East London mosque.

The researchers said that they found further controversial works during visits to mosques in Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Oxford and High Wycombe.

The Times has learnt that five of the books that were acquired by researchers had been also found in searches during Scotland Yard antiterrorist investigations since 2001. About half of the books collected were in English – raising questions about the emphasis placed by the Government in combating extremism by training more English-speaking imams. The other publications were in Arabic or Urdu. The report, The Hijacking of British Islam, is published by the conservative Policy Exchange think-tank and was written by Denis MacEoin, a Fellow at Newcastle University and expert on Islamic issues.

The researchers found hardline material at a quarter of the 100 mosques visited during the project.

The report said: “On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions – approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.

“What is more worrying is that these are among the best-funded and most dynamic institutions in Muslim Britain – some of which are held up as mainstream bodies. Many of the institutions featured here have been endowed with official recognition.”

A key theme of the books was a “strident sectarianism” which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration. The report stated: “Simply put, these notions demand that the individual Muslim must not merely feel deep affection for and identity with his fellow believers and with all that is authentically Islamic. The individual Muslim must also feel an abhorrence for nonbelievers, hypocrites, heretics, and all that is deemed ‘unIslamic’. The latter category encompasses those Muslims who are judged to practise an insufficiently rigorous form of Islam.” Most books stopped short of calling for violence. But they created a climate of intolerance and contempt for nonMuslims that could be exploited by violent jihadists, the researchers said.

The report called for a radical overhaul of Britain’s relationship with Saudi Arabia, which it argued has a “powerful and malign” influence over British Islam and sponsored the export of fundamentalist Islamic doctrine.

Regent’s Park mosque said that the bookshop on its premises was run by a private company. Yunes Teniaz, of the London Central Mosque Trust, told The Times: “The bookshop is franchised to a separate organisation. These books express their authors’ opinions and not those of the London Central Mosque Trust.”

Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: “Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views.”

Fundamental views

Extracts from works found on sale in British mosques

“And if he apostatises after that, his head should be chopped off, according to the Hadith: ‘Whoever changes his religion, kill him’.”
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 5; reported found at the East London mosque and the London Central mosque)

“Whoever takes part in stoning a married adulterer is rewarded for that, and it is not fitting for anyone to abstain from it if a ruling of stoning is issued.”
(Fatawa Islamiyah – Islamic Verdicts, volume 6; reported found at the East London mosque)

“Some Kinds of Women Who Will Go to Hell
1. The Grumbler ? the woman who complains against her husband every now and then is one of Hell.
2. The Woman Who Adorns Herself.
3. The Woman Who Apes Men, Tattoos, Cuts Hair Short and Alters Nature.
(Women Who Deserve to Go to Hell: East London mosque; Muslim Education Centre, High Wycombe)

[Jaeger07]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?

Dont misunderstand me: Islamists are bad. But we cant start burning books and witches again to solve this problem.

Its no news that these people are wicked though.

[INAT]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?

Dont misunderstand me: Islamists are bad. But we cant start burning books and witches again to solve this problem.

Its no news that these people are wicked though.


Sure we can national security reasons.p-)

[Lazy Lob]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?

Dont misunderstand me: Islamists are bad. But we cant start burning books and witches again to solve this problem.

Its no news that these people are wicked though.

Freedom of speech is not “a bitch”. I wish there were fewer restrictions. The bitch is when mainstream society has to abide by certain laws and some sectors seem to get away with blue murder, or at least inciting it.

Mainstream society is being gagged by more and more laws passed by those most honourable members yet these situations persist.

For a faith that gets so easily offended they sure know how to dish it out.

[INAT]

Freedom of speech is not “a bitch”. I wish there were fewer restrictions. The bitch is when mainstream society has to abide by certain laws and some sectors seem to get away with blue murder, or at least inciting it.

Mainstream society is being gagged by more and more laws passed by those most honourable members yet these situations persist.

For a faith that gets so easily offended they sure know how to dish it out.


Agree that is why I personally do not believe in "moderate Muslims" if they exist they do not speak up when it is needed.

[theholeinthedonut]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?

Dont misunderstand me: Islamists are bad. But we cant start burning books and witches again to solve this problem.

Its no news that these people are wicked though.

Your logic is deeply flawed Jaeger.
No one is calling to ban Harry Potter or Das Kapital, but writings that contain incitation to murder or other crimes are not covered under freedom of speech.

Further on you should notice that "burning witches and books" is not the only possible approach, cutting of fundings, boycot by public figures etc. might help.

Relativism is always the easy way out, if you do not think the problem is worth any attention you can choose to ignore it, that's your own choice you are entitled to. But don't start comparing those with differing views to the holy inquisition or the nazis.

[Jaeger07]

Your logic is deeply flawed Jaeger.
No one is calling to ban Harry Potter or Das Kapital, but writings that contain incitation to murder or other crimes are not covered under freedom of speech.

Further on you should notice that "burning witches and books" is not the only possible approach, cutting of fundings, boycot by public figures etc. might help.

Relativism is always the easy way out, if you do not think the problem is worth any attention you can choose to ignore it, that's your own choice you are entitled to. But don't start comparing those with differing views to the holy inquisition or the nazis.

Lazy bob said "And the government allows this..." implying this (printing lessons in hate) should be forbidden.

If you support f.ex. the printing of the muhammed-drawings, you cant forbid muslim hate-mongering books. Its two sides of the same thing - freedom of speech.

I am merely saying that putting restrictions on those books is not the answear. Infact its not those books who are the problem, but the crazed fanatics who read, write and sell them.

IMO there are lots of restrictions those people could be met with, as you have pointed out.

[theholeinthedonut]

Lazy bob said "And the government allows this..." implying this (printing lessons in hate) should be forbidden.

If you support f.ex. the printing of the muhammed-drawings, you cant forbid muslim hate-mongering books. Its two sides of the same thing - freedom of speech.

I am merely saying that putting restrictions on those books is not the answear. Infact its not those books who are the problem, but the crazed fanatics who read, write and sell them.

IMO there are lots of restrictions those people could be met with, as you have pointed out.

That makes your point a little bit easier to understand...but still I can't agree on your reasoning that you can not ban incitation to crimes because you allow the publication of the mohammed caricatures. That's again relativism, a disrespectful representation of a historical religious person cannot be compared to an incitation to murder or violence against members of our society. IMHO. I think those are two different pairs of shoes.

[Kilgor]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?



Mein Kampf is sold as a historical text. The only reason that piece of trash is available is because simply Hitler wrote it.

[Lazy Lob]

Lazy bob said "And the government allows this..." implying this (printing lessons in hate) should be forbidden.

If you support f.ex. the printing of the muhammed-drawings, you cant forbid muslim hate-mongering books. Its two sides of the same thing - freedom of speech.

I am merely saying that putting restrictions on those books is not the answear. Infact its not those books who are the problem, but the crazed fanatics who read, write and sell them.

IMO there are lots of restrictions those people could be met with, as you have pointed out.


No I wasn’t implying anything of the sort. I was implying more draconian measures. But now you’ve said it why not.

The law (not me) states that incitement to murder (as well as other types of behaviour) is illegal. Well, FFS apply it. I’m no expert but if incitement to murder is illegal then what the hell are the police and the CPS going to do about those books? As you say it may not be the answer but the law is the law.

I’m saying that the law is applied in a very uneven way and this tendency is getting worse. You then have someone like father John Hayes having his collar felt for expressing a harmless opinion.

As Monsieur Le TrouDansLeDonut says, you’re comparing or trying to find equivalence in two very different forms of expression.

BTW I’m LazyLob not Bob ;-)

[LMAV]

A black hate group set up in front of my dorm and was telling all the white people that when the time came our blood would be spilled. So, don't tell me freedom of speech is gone in the US.

[Bitogno]

Agree that is why I personally do not believe in "moderate Muslims" if they exist they do not speak up when it is needed.
They do.
For instance on the 17th of April 2007 tenth of thousands muslims manifested against terrorism in Algeria.
It happened also the 6th of April 2007 in Lahore and in Marocco the 25th of May 2003.

But moderates muslims are less well organised and above all less well financed. While integrists receive a lot of money from US ally : Saudia arabia.
To finish I would add that I am quite surprised by the fact that TV networks always show integrists manifesting and forget to show anti-integrists muslims manifesting ( probably more important Paris Hilton news in US, Lindsay Lohan news in UK or Cecilia Sarkosy news in France ).

Just to add 2 points :
_ Most of the muslim, as most of the people, have not political implications and mind their own business.
_ I think ( but it is much more a thought than something based on fact ) that with Iraq war, the war on terror much more appear a US war to get the oil than a war to push democracy.

[theholeinthedonut]

They do.
For instance on the 17th of April 2007 tenth of thousands muslims manifested against terrorism in Algeria.
It happened also the 6th of April 2007 in Lahore and in Marocco the 25th of May 2003.

But moderates muslims are less well organised and above all less well financed. While integrists receive a lot of money from US ally : Saudia arabia.
To finish I would add that I am quite surprised by the fact that TV networks always show integrists manifesting and forget to show anti-integrists muslims manifesting ( probably more important Paris Hilton news in US, Lindsay Lohan news in UK or Cecilia Sarkosy news in France ).

Just to add 2 points :
_ Most of the muslim, as most of the people, have not political implications and mind their own business.
_ I think ( but it is much more a thought than something based on fact ) that with Iraq war, the war on terror much more appear a US war to get the oil than a war to push democracy.

I fail to see the relevance of your post to the topic at hand..... but please.....

[khukuri]

Agree that is why I personally do not believe in "moderate Muslims" if they exist they do not speak up when it is needed.

bs you have no clue what the opinion of a billion persons are...

[Bitogno]

I fail to see the relevance of your post to the topic at hand..... but please.....
It was an answer to INAT ( that's why I quoted it ). It may effectively not be considered as relevant to the main topic.
What I can nevertheless notice is that these mosques are a minority ( 25% according to the article so INAT your moderates muslims are in the 75% other mosques ) but leading because Saudia arabia is still financing extremism.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Its all very twisted.

Muslims publish and sell books of hate and that incite violence and murder and MSM and the activist groups and certain politicians on both sides of the pond remain silent, but try to enforce our governements laws (USA) like say immigration, and you are immediately labeled a racist or a xenophobe or whatever else they have in their vocabulary.

Imagine if the three groups I mentioned above were using their time wisely, this discussion wouldn't be going on.

[theholeinthedonut]

It was an answer to INAT ( that's why I quoted it ). It may effectively not be considered as relevant to the main topic.
What I can nevertheless notice is that these mosques are a minority ( 25% according to the article so INAT your moderates muslims are in the 75% other mosques ) but leading because Saudia arabia is still financing extremism.

If you will read the article more thoroughly you will also discover that, alltough it is only a minority in absolute numbers, the mosques we are talking about are some of the biggest, with very large numbers of visitores. As well they are considered to be mainstream, whatever that is meant to be.

[Bitogno]

If you will read the article more thoroughly you will also discover that, alltough it is only a minority in absolute numbers, the mosques we are talking about are some of the biggest, with very large numbers of visitores. As well they are considered to be mainstream, whatever that is meant to be.
Yes I know that's why I put the word leading .

[Bitogno]

Its all very twisted.

Muslims publish and sell books of hate and that incite violence and murder and MSM and the activist groups and certain politicians on both sides of the pond remain silent, but try to enforce our governements laws (USA) like say immigration, and you are immediately labeled a racist or a xenophobe or whatever else they have in their vocabulary.

Imagine if the three groups I mentioned above were using their time wisely, this discussion wouldn't be going on.
Some muslims publish hate books. Said that, what I see on the polititian side is that these hatting groups and integrists mosques are still financed by Saudia Arabia and no one seems to be wanting to address this problem. If these mosques have such books cut the funds and remind the Seoud familly that they can loose power.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Some muslims publish hate books. Said that, what I see on the polititian side is that these hatting groups and integrists mosques are still financed by Saudia Arabia and no one seems to be wanting to address this problem. If these mosques have such books cut the funds and remind the Seoud familly that they can loose power.

^

Thats besides the fact, the point that I was trying to make is that when say someone tries to protest illegal immigration or say homo******ity it is immediately condemned, protested, boycotted and driven out of town.

I mean, look at Don Imus, what he said was not appropriate, but you would think that with something like that being jumped on, paying a fine (the Sharpton Shakedown) and driven out of business, that we could all rest easy knowing that certain groups would take it to another level when real hate and violence and murder are incited.

Perhaps the three groups I mentioned are being funded by Saudi Arabia?

[Bitogno]

^

Thats besides the fact, the point that I was trying to make is that when say someone tries to protest illegal immigration or say homo******ity it is immediately condemned, protested, boycotted and driven out of town.

Some subjects become to "epidermic".



I mean, look at Don Imus, what he said was not appropriate, but you would think that with something like that being jumped on, paying a fine (the Sharpton Shakedown) and driven out of business, that we could all rest easy knowing that certain groups would take it to another level when real hate and violence and murder are incited.

I don' what you refer to so ....



Perhaps the three groups I mentioned are being funded by Saudi Arabia?
Integrists yes.
Activists I don't think so.
Polititians are IMO the problem. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were saudian, Saudia arabia is still financing integrists all over the world and they can act as if nothing was happennig. I may appear as a conspiracy fan but we don't known everything of the relationship between polititian and Saudia Arabia reigning family.

[Mr. JOSHUA]

Some subjects become to "epidermic".

What? What the hell is that, skin of epic proportions?


I don' what you refer to so ....

Sorry.

A radio talkshow host made a comment one day about a female collegiate basketball team. He referred to them as "knappy headed hoes".

Almost immediately, our media, certain activist groups and shakedown artist were upon him, calling for his head, his money and whatever else was left of him.

Thats why I said, you would think that if certain people would react to such small but distasteful words, that all out war would be declared on people who endorse and incite hate, violence and murder.




Integrists yes.
Activists I don't think so.
Polititians are IMO the problem. Most of the 9/11 terrorists were saudian, Saudia arabia is still financing integrists all over the world and they can act as if nothing was happennig. I may appear as a conspiracy fan but we don't known everything of the relationship between polititian and Saudia Arabia reigning family.


Politicians control certain activist who benefit them, certainly there are outsiders influencing the politicians, to me, its all connected.

[Bitogno]

What? What the hell is that, skin of epic proportions?

It is a French expression may be it doesn't have any sense for a non French person. My bad. It means that, on some subjets, people have the habit of reacting quite violently which lead to the fact that no on can talk about these subjects.

[Laworkerbee]

Well, freedom of speech is a bitch. There are a lot of other nasty books out there. Ever heard of "Mein Kampf"?

Dont misunderstand me: Islamists are bad. But we cant start burning books and witches again to solve this problem.

Its no news that these people are wicked though.

You will not find these books in Saudi Arabia,Yemen, Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation, you will only find them in Europe because Jihadist's exploit the freedom of speech.

[INAT]

bs you have no clue what the opinion of a billion persons are...


What is bs my subjective opinion? I never claimed to know what the opinion of a billion people is I simply said that I do not believe in the idea of a moderate Muslim.I do not mean that to be offensive .The Muslims I have known were either extremely devout or ate pork and drank alcohol thus not being true Muslims.

[Lazy Lob]

You will not find these books in Saudi Arabia,Yemen, Egypt or any other Middle Eastern nation, you will only find them in Europe because Jihadist's exploit the freedom of speech.

Yes you do. The Saudi eductaion system is based on them. Freedomhouse.org has the pdf download in full technicolour.

[Laworkerbee]

Yes you do. The Saudi eductaion system is based on them. Freedomhouse.org has the pdf download in full technicolour.

I remember reading one of Bob Baer's books stating that during a return trip from the middle East he stopped off in London and was surprised by all of the extremist literature that was openly available that according to him would not have happened in say Egypt or Saudi.

I will try and find that quote, in the mean time I appreciate you link Mr. Lob

[Lazy Lob]

I remember reading one of Bob Baer's books stating that during a return trip from the middle East he stopped off in London and was surprised by all of the extremist literature that was openly available that according to him would not have happened in say Egypt or Saudi.

I will try and find that quote, in the mean time I appreciate you link Mr. Lob

Here it is.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/special_report/ArabicExcerpts.pdf

[INAT]

Here it is.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/uploads/special_report/ArabicExcerpts.pdf

Thanks for posting this.This thought is being exported from Saudi Arabia
and Islam in general.It seems that almost all of the major religions have
harmed Islam and are out to destroy or convert Muslims.This way of thinking does not leave room for forgiveness and compassion.If this is interpreted literally the Muslim and non-Muslim do not seem to be able
to live together as equals.

[clean]

Occasionally... I'd get off the plane in London and just walk around the city so I could catch my breath. I'd end up in Edgeware Road, a part of central London taken over by Arabs and other middle easterners... I'd felt like I never left the Middle East, but for one subtle difference: The Arab bookstores.
In most parts of the middle east, bookstores are forbidden from selling radical islamist tracts that openly advocate violence, but in London's bookstores there were racks of them.

From Robert Baer in the preface to "See No Evil"

I paraphrased. Hence the "..."

[INAT]

This hate lit is not allowed inthe middle east yet perfectly acceptable
in western coutries because of the freedoms afforded.If as a imam you incite someone to hurt or kill another through the written or spoken word
you are guilty and should be censored at the least.

[Laworkerbee]

From Robert Baer in the preface to "See No Evil"

I paraphrased. Hence the "..."

Thanks Clean, I have that book at home but could find no sources for the quote here at work.

:hug:

[clean]

No problem.
For the record, he was talking about 1994. So it may be easier to find literature that incites violence in the middle east today. And what with the internet, it's anywhere it wants to be now.

[INAT]

No problem.
For the record, he was talking about 1994. So it may be easier to find literature that incites violence in the middle east today. And what with the internet, it's anywhere it wants to be now.


Wait no one sad there was going to be a record.Yeah I did not think about
the internet.We are doomed!

[clean]

Wait no one sad there was going to be a record.

Vinyl. Don't worry, only DJs are capable of playing it.

[Bitogno]

This hate lit is not allowed inthe middle east yet perfectly acceptable
in western coutries because of the freedoms afforded.If as a imam you incite someone to hurt or kill another through the written or spoken word
you are guilty and should be censored at the least.
In France you'll be jailed for that.