1945: USAAF in combat with Soviet planes!

[Rittmester]

I came over an interesting interview with the all time highets scoring fighter ace, Erich Hartmann at http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann.htm

Here goes:

"Once, in Romania, we had an interesting experience with both Russians and Americans. We took off on a mission to intercept Soviet bombers attacking Prague, and we counted many American made aircraft with Red Stars, part of your Lend Lease. But then there were American fighters also nearby, and I was above them all by a thousand meters. It seemed that the Americans and Russians were busy examining each other and were unaware that we were around. I gave the order to drop down through the Mustangs, then the Russian fighters, and through the bombers in just one hit and run attack, and then we would get the hell out of there, since there were only the two of us. I shot down two P-51s quickly in my dive, and I then fired on a Boston bomber, scored good hits but it was not a kill. The second element also scored a kill against the Mustangs, and my wingman and I were all right. Suddenly the most amazing thing happened. The Soviet fighters and Americans began fighting each other, and the confusion worked for us. They must not have realized that it was a schwarm of Germans that started the whole thing! The Russian bombers dropped their bombs in panic and turned away. I saw three Yaks get shot down and a Mustang damaged trailing white smoke. That was my last fight against the Americans."

http://www.acesofww2.com/germany/aces/Hartmann/hartmann_350v.jpg
Hartmann after hitting the big 350 mark

[kilroy1911]

ehm... well... can be true. But can we really belive hartman? and any of the luftwaffe experten? because these numbers seems to be little exaggerated... more realistic sources says that hartman has somewhere between 70 - 80 kills... and not 352...

[Breakfast in Vegas]

ehm... well... can be true. But can we really belive hartman? and any of the luftwaffe experten? because these numbers seems to be little exaggerated... more realistic sources says that hartman has somewhere between 70 - 80 kills... and not 352...
Hartmann was very generous is claiming kills, at least according to some sources I've read. I also doubt the infallacy of Luftwaffe scoring, although many claim that it was perfect, requiring eye witnesses etc. The Germans had great aces no doubt, but even among themselves the Germans aren't in agreement in regards to who had how many kills.

A friend of mine interviewed Günther Rall a few years ago and Rall said that Hartmann's kill claims were grossly exaggerated. But as the "Golden Boy" of the Luftwaffe, he was untouchable.

Then again, maybe Günther was just jealous... :)

[kilroy1911]

and maybe not:-) I have created a thread about luftwaffe experten and their claims... do not hijack this thread to another topic. Plesae post anything about this luftwaffe experten controversy in that thread. thanks...

[Breakfast in Vegas]

and maybe not:-) I have created a thread about luftwaffe experten and their claims... do not hijack this thread to another topic. Plesae post anything about this luftwaffe experten controversy in that thread. thanks...
Agreed... but it wasn't me who hijacked anything, you started the conversation on reliable Luftwaffe scoring. In any case, I won't post anymore on the subject here but rather in your new thread.

As for this thread, I think it is an interesting aspect... as USAAF operations in the Balkans and Eastern Europe are underpublicized.

[kilroy1911]

well, i just use kills as a example of how trustworthy some claims may be... Not sure how active was USAAF over eastern europe and balkans - i live in Slovakia and here was only one noticable USAAF raid which destroyed Apollo oil refinery, hopefully it was quite accurate because the refinery was very near to the city centre of Bratislava (in terms of WW2 bombing accuracy) If anyone is interested... i may submit some photos.

[Kitsune]

There seems to be some envy regarding the highest scoring German Aces especially from the American side it seems.
The German scoring system was certainly not perfect - neither were the systems of other nations. It was not less strict than others. The question is wether the Germans did exaggerate their kill numbers in any way more than others did. To my knowledge no investigation could ever find serious signs that this was the case - and there are a number of high scorers one can investigate. German pilots simply were often outnumbered, for Allied pilots the opposite was true. More dogs than hares usually means less many hares per dog. Plus, German pilots usually also had not the luxury to be transferred to schooling after a certain number of flights, they usually had to go on and on since there was usually a shortage of them. That might very well explain the higher kill scores. Hartmann himself gives the impression of a very decent man by the way. So he either is a consumate actor or the real deal.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

There seems to be some envy regarding the highest scoring German Aces especially from the American side it seems.
The German scoring system was certainly not perfect - neither were the systems of other nations. It was not less strict than others. The question is wether the Germans did exaggerate their kill numbers in any way more than others did. To my knowledge no investigation could ever find serious signs that this was the case - and there are a number of high scorers one can investigate. German pilots simply were often outnumbered, for Allied pilots the opposite was true. More dogs than hares usually means less many hares per dog. Plus, German pilots usually also had not the luxury to be transferred to schooling after a certain number of flights, they usually had to go on and on since there was usually a shortage of them. That might very well explain the higher kill scores. Hartmann himself gives the impression of a very decent man by the way. So he either is a consumate actor or the real deal.
answered here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=122776

[Lokos]

The only such combat I am aware of is a top Soviet ace downing two American fighters after they mistakenly strafed Soviet columns in South East Europe.

Lokos

[Breakfast in Vegas]

The only such combat I am aware of is a top Soviet ace downing two American fighters after they mistakenly strafed Soviet columns in South East Europe.

Lokos
I'm struggling to find a link, but I do recall reading some reports about US missions in which US fighters and bombers landed in Soviet occupied territory near the end of the war, and about some misunderstandings/incidents between the Russians and Americans associated with these missions.

Also there were numerous US aircrew "captured" by the Soviets after the landed damaged aircraft or parachuted into Soviet occupied areas as the war ended and the fighting forces of both nations operated near each other, for example in Romania and Hungary.

[Lokos]

Kozhedub, Ivan Nikitovich, was apparently the one who shot down the two P51s. And there was also apparently an ace called Aleksander Invanovich Koldunov, who downed a P38 (or two) in 1944.

It is impossible to conclusively confirm this.


Also there were numerous US aircrew "captured" by the Soviets after the landed damaged aircraft or parachuted into Soviet occupied areas as the war ended and the fighting forces of both nations operated near each other, for example in Romania and Hungary.

I also remember some guy who ended up fighting alongside the Soviets for the remainder of the war... I can't find any links, though.

Lokos

[Nephilim]

perfectly possible that hartmann shot down so many planes.
keep in mind that soviet pilots werent very well educated in their field (late stage of war) and therefore quite easy prey for a fighter veteran.
many german pilots had enormous kill counts on the eastern front.

anyway.
prefect example for FF during confusion.
somehow remembers me during the first encounter of the new Ta-152´ ers and the old Bf-109.
the bf´s took the ta´s for enemy planes and engaged them.

[Lokos]

keep in mind that soviet pilots werent very well educated in their field (late stage of war)

They were well educated enough to account for the highest scoring allied aces of the war, from 1942 onwards.

Lokos

[Jippo]

They were well educated enough to account for the highest scoring allied aces of the war, from 1942 onwards.

Lokos

And quite probably the biggest overclaiming percentage on the allied side too.

[Lokos]

Is that so? And why would that be?

EDIT:

No, you're right, Jippo, the thousands of German aircraft lost on the EF were all involved in fatal technical failures. Kozhedub claimed more than a hundred kills. He was credited with 62 personal victories. Pokryshkin claimed more than 90, but was credited with 59. The Soviets did not blindly accept all claims at face value...

Lokos

[Mamont]

And quite probably the biggest overclaiming percentage on the allied side too.Why is that? Sources?

About Koldunov and P-38, from the command of 866IAP report:

17.11.44 at 12.50 12 P-38 were storming regiments of 3rd Ukrainian front near Chamurlia. 1 P-38 was shot by soviet aaa and fell 1km near the airfield, at 13.00 two Yak-9 took off: Krivonogih and Shipulya, 13.05 6 Yak-9 took off: Bondar, Surnev, Zheleznov, Pociba, Zhestovskij and Serdjuk. At 13.10 a pair of Yak-3's took off: Koldunov and Krasjukov.
Shipulja after the first pass hit P-38, that fell about 500m near the airfield and burned, Krivonogih fought with two P-38's and after succesfull vertical maneuver hit one of them, burning P-38 fell 8-10km from the airfield. As the fight continued, Krivonogih got on six of another P-38 but flew in burst of aaa guns, that targeted that P-38. His plane cought smoke, rolled and hit the ground about 3km from the airfield.
From the second group of 6 Yaks, Bondar, Surnev and Zheleznov saw that planes were carrying american markings and tried to evade the fight, being under attack by lightning they perfomed evasive maneuvers. After a while Lightnings, possibly after recognising soviet planes, left the fight.
Serdyukov was attacked by Lightning immediatly after take off, he succesfully evaded and then saw that another P-38 is shooting on the Yak, he attacked it, P-38 cought fire and fell 1km noth-west of the airfield. Serdyuk attacked another Lightning, that cought smoke and left the fight heading north-west.
Zhestovskij fought with two P-38 2km west from the airfield, he got one of them from above and behind, P-38 left the fight smoking, but other Lightning got him. Zhestovskij was wounded in the right leg, torso and hand. He managed to bail sucesfully, and landed near Kamenica, 8km west from Nish.
Pociba after take off climbed to 2000m and formed on with 12 P-38 that approached airfield. He perfomed wing maneuvers, after wich P-38 turned and left heading 240. At the same time about 60 P-38 approached too, but after meeting the previous group turned too.
Krasjukov recognising american planes didn't engage. He observed 1 Yak-9 that fell burning 1km near the airfield.

Another episode, was 18.03.45 when several group of B-17 near Kyustrin were attacked by Bf's and Fw's. At the same time 6 Yak-3 were on patrol in that area and came to help only to be attacked by escorts. They tried to evade but P-51's pursued them into soviet airspace and shot all of them, killing two and heavily wounding one pilot.

The american story is a bit different, planes were from 359FG in two groups: "A" - 18 P-51 369FS with Capt. Ralph Cox in the lead, "B" - 34 P-51 from 368 and 370FG's with Capt,Wetmore in the lead. They engaged unindentified planes over Zackerick near Kyustrin. As the result 2 planes were counted as kills, 2 as probable and 1 as damaged. Lt Robert W McIntosh was trialed because his guncam footage clearly showed Yaks, other pilot's footage was "damaged" in processing.

[Indiana Jones]

Is that so? And why would that be?

EDIT:

No, you're right, Jippo, the thousands of German aircraft lost on the EF were all involved in fatal technical failures. Kozhedub claimed more than a hundred kills. He was credited with 62 personal victories. Pokryshkin claimed more than 90, but was credited with 59. The Soviets did not blindly accept all claims at face value...

Lokos
Is there any particular reason for your bellicosity towards Jippo ? Are you feeling "hawkish" today ? ;) (I hope you may forgive me for that, but I am desperate for a little bonmot now and then to make up for my poor command of the English language.)
The Soviet Airforce had in fact established very strict criteria for the award of "kills", however the verification process seems to have not been closely observed in practice as the VVS did indeed overclaim by a considerably greater margin than both its adversaries and Allies- that is well established, see for example Prien, Plocher, or more recently Mikhailov/Bergstrom, .

[Lokos]

VVS did indeed overclaim by a considerably greater margin than both its adversaries and Allies- that is well established, see for example Prien, Plocher, or more recently Mikhailov/Bergstrom, .

They could overclaim as much as they liked - it doesn't matter if the kill isn't awarded.

Lokos

[Jippo]

Why is that? Sources?

Basically Mikhailov & Bergström, but also Valtonen.

[Jippo]

They could overclaim as much as they liked - it doesn't matter if the kill isn't awarded.

Lokos

Also for awarded kills. I can check the exact figures if you want.

[Mamont]

Basically Mikhailov & Bergström, but also Valtonen.Please provide comparison of overclaiming.

[Mastermind]

I see no reason to doubt the reports of these incidents.

First they are to be expected when allied forces come into original contact and neither side had worked with the other...no communicatons, poor familiarity with aircraft types and tactics, etc.

Second, given the fog of war, the necessity for immediate action in aerial high speed combat...it makes perfect sense such incidents would happen. I have read many fighter pilot reports that indicated there was a "license to kill"...no "permission to fire" requests were required. Individual pilots, though highly trained, were "trigger happy" as a matter of survival. They often had less time to make a life and death decision than a batter has to decide to swing on a pitched baseball....

BTW: Very interesting report...thanks for posting

[sektor]

very intersting informaton.

[Thor]

And quite probably the biggest overclaiming percentage on the allied side too.
x2

The institutionalised lie revisited.

[James]

Year ago I read that the German counted aircraft destroyed on the ground as kills - hence Hartmann's high score. Is this true?

[Jippo]

Year ago I read that the German counted aircraft destroyed on the ground as kills - hence Hartmann's high score. Is this true?

No. Ground kills were naturally counted, but not added to victory tally. There is also a misconception of a 4-engine bomber being worth more than one kill. In reality plane was always one kill, but on the western front the combat was more demanding. Therefore a seperate points scoring system was developed, where the pilot was awarded points for instance forcing a bomber out of the formation. These points were not kills, but a means to rank pilots for medals & promotions.

[Rittmester]

Dont mix this Erich Hartmann:

http://youtube.com/watch/v/ASpqx0t0rio

..with this one:

(Erik Hartman lacht gast uit)
http://youtube.com/watch/v/iQ-R_znSaSY

[Jippo]

Please provide comparison of overclaiming.

Valtonen, "Pohjoinen Ilmasota", 1996

During the period of 7.-23.10.1944 Soviet 7 VA listed 95 kills and VVS SF 36kills. German losses as lost to fighters or MIA in that period were:

10 Bf-109
7 Ju-52
2 Ju-88
1 Ju-87

Soviet kills vs. German losses ratio is 6,5:1.


During fighting in Kursk 5.7.-8.7.1943 Soviet archives registered 948 confirmed victories when Germans listed 60 aircraft losses.

Soviet kills vs. German losses ratio is 15,8:1.



According to Bergström & Mikhailov (BC+RS vol. 2 & 3):

For whole Eastern front Jan 1. - June 22. 1942

Soviet confimed kills:

air to air: 3012
Ground fire: 1197
Total : 4209 aircraft

German losses in the same period:
Losses in the air: 1046 aircraft (including all losses navigation, mechanical etc..)

Soviet kills vs. German losses ratio is >4:1.


For whole Eastern front June 22. - Nov 18. 1942

Soviet airforce reported 4500 aircraft destroyed (doesn't include AA of the army or naval aviation), whilst Germans had written off 1135 aircraft for all causes.

Soviet kills vs. German losses ratio is >4:1.


As comparison German confirmed kills vs enemy losses ratio was generally less than 2:1 in the eastern front.


It is worth noting that most of the numbers above are not losses in air-to-air combat thus making the confirmed kills to actual kills ratio even much worse. Airplanes were lost to other causes as well, not only to enemy fighters. I would say that 20% of the Russian air-to-air kills were actual kills, and I think that is a very conservative estimation.

[Mamont]

As comparison German confirmed kills vs enemy losses ratio was generally less than 2:1 in the eastern front. I asked about comparison, didn't i? Not german vs soviet claims...

[Jippo]

What? Comparison to RAF & USAAF? They were generally speaking on the level of Luftwaffe in accuracy. I don't have a book here to quote to you, but you can dig that up yourself if you don't believe me.

And dismiss the claims of the bomber crews (8AF) as they are a joke anyway, and concentrate on fighter kills.

[Mastermind]

Hijackers....):-(

[Indiana Jones]

Year ago I read that the German counted aircraft destroyed on the ground as kills - hence Hartmann's high score. Is this true?
Jippo has basically covered it. For a detailed explanation in English, see here:
http://members.aol.com/dheitm8612/score.htm

[Mamont]

And dismiss the claims of the bomber crews (8AF) as they are a joke anyway, and concentrate on fighter kills. Why should i? Let me quote you again : "And quite probably the biggest overclaiming percentage on the allied side too." I asked you to compare overclaiming, not dividing it between or something else. Was that so unclear?

[Jippo]

Why should i? Let me quote you again : "And quite probably the biggest overclaiming percentage on the allied side too." I asked you to compare overclaiming, not dividing it between or something else. Was that so unclear?

Just so you would understand it. The above is my opinion, thus "quite probably". I was talking about countability of the scores of the Soviet aces, as in response to Lokos' point of having high scoring aces.

Their victory tallies might show numbers like 62, 59, 57, etc... and thus be high. I would just like to point that those numbers are not reliable, and if they overclaimed as much an average Soviet airman did the numbers become 12, 11, 11, ... Which is not very much anymore.

Get it? I can draw a picture of it too, if you like.

[Mamont]

Just so you would understand it. The above is my opinion, thus "quite probably". I was talking about countability of the scores of the Soviet aces, as in response to Lokos' point of having high scoring aces. Why underestimate their results? They fought throughout the whole war or the most part of it. They didn't claim 5 or 6 kills in a single combat sortie like germans or us pilots for example. They didn't became aces in a day. Of course they overclaimed, because such was the nature of combat. But to "believe less" on general principle in scores of soviet pilots than others is an insult.


Their victory tallies might show numbers like 62, 59, 57, etc... and thus be high. I would just like to point that those numbers are not reliable, And that point is? Bong's score? Or someone else?


and if they overclaimed as much an average Soviet airman
Please, provide overclaiming for the average soviet airman..

the numbers become 12, 11, 11, ... Which is not very much anymore. Hm, so general principle is at work again i see. Divide all scores by some digit. Than what? We must find an overclaiming score of an average german airman and divide hartmann's number of kills by it? Than in the same manner we must "correct" Johnson's score? Or any other ace?


Get it? I can draw a picture of it too, if you like.Ok, i do.

[Jippo]

Please, provide overclaiming for the average soviet airman..
Hm, so general principle is at work again i see. Divide all scores by some digit. Than what? We must find an overclaiming score of an average german airman and divide hartmann's number of kills by it? Than in the same manner we must "correct" Johnson's score? Or any other ace?



I just had to add this,

I provided the figures above: SU pilots overclaiming in average was at least 5 confirmed kills against one German aircraft lost in aerial combat. For Germans this was around 2:1.

If you take the numbers by the face value, Kochedub probably shot down 12 Germans and Hartman 176 allies. I see no problems with this, but most of the overclaiming was done by less experienced pilots for sure & thus the top aces scores are likely to more accurate than average.

Other than that, I think we should make mastermind happy and get back to topic... :)

[Jippo]

Some more about Kochdeub shooting down two P-51's:

http://www.sturmanskie.com/html_general_infos/aviation_history/pages/biog/biog_kozedub_eng.html

[Jaguar]

Although I agree about mastermind happyness :) allow me to quote what Bergstrom has to say on the subject at hand.



The victory tallies of the many German "plus-100-aces" have been dismissed, often on purely political grounds, by representatives of the victorious nations - particularly in the old Eastern Bloc. Equally, the fact that quite a few Soviet fighter aces surpassed the achievements by the top scorers of the RAF and the USAAF was hard to accept, and often openly refuted, in the Western World during the Cold War. Countless attempts have been made over the years to belittle the achievements of the fighter aces of various nations - particularly the Germans, the Japanese, the Italians, and - in the West - the Soviets.

A critical reader pointed out: "Did the Soviet top aces really shoot down more planes than Western top aces? They claimed more but that is a different thing." But that way of reasoning only leads into a swamp. In order to find out who the real top claimer against the Luftwaffe was in the way this critical reader means, one would have to find out first how many aircraft were actually shot down by the U.S. or British ace who in this regard was the actual U.S./British top scorer. That would involve examining every victory claim made by maybe the fifty highest claiming U.S./British aces. Next step would be to examine every single victory that was claimed by each Soviet ace who claimed more than that number of victories. Let's say that the "actual" U.S./British top ace hardly made any overclaims at all, and in reality shot down 30 German planes. Then you still would have to examine every single victory claimed by around fifty Soviet aces who claimed 30 or more victories. And then we know that the Generalquartiermeister loss lists for 1944 are missing, like so many Luftwaffe records.

In other words: It is an impossible task. So until this Herculean task has been fulfilled, we have no other option but to accept - preliminary, of course - that the most experienced and most successful fighter aces on the Allied side in WW II were the Soviet top aces. Because even if Ivan Kozhedub's comrades overclaimed, we don't know if Kozhedub too did so.

(It is my preliminary and present conclusion that the average Soviet rate of overclaiming during the whole war was something like three to one. But I have also found that some of the better Soviet fighter units - like the élite 9 GIAP from late 1942 onward - had a rate of overclaiming which was below the average.)

[oldsoak]

two things
firstly it is entirely possible for the US and USSR pilots to have engaged each other by accident. Blue on blue encounters did happen. In the heat of combat where everything happens in a split second, if you dont recognise the aircraft or its shooting at you, you will engage or withdraw. its that simple. ( The RAF and Commonwealth bagged a few of their own allies as did everyone else. ) The radial La-5/7 series could be mistaken for FW190's
secondly , every side produced aces. There was a lot of aerial combat on the eastern front - both sides have aces that amassed high scores. Bear in mind that aces are the top one or two percent of pilots- which makes the rest fairly average.

[Mamont]

I just had to add this, I provided the figures above: SU pilots overclaiming in average was at least 5 confirmed kills against one German aircraft lost in aerial combat. For Germans this was around 2:1. Interesting, when counting soviet overclaims you added aerial and aaa kills, but when counting german's - you considered only aerial victories. Interesting approach. As far as i know soviet losses were 2769 planes total, from all causes including non-combat while germans claimed 5199(a)+922(aaa)+855(g) destroyed as stated on page 210 from BCRS vol.2, so we have 6976(g) vs 5268(s) claims. In soviet army percentage of non-combat losses was high, about 50%. It was about the same for Luftwaffe, or US helicopter fleet in Vietnam for example. So numbers are not so easy to throw or interpret.

The story behind Kozhedub's kills is not so clear. If i remember right, supposedly russian researcher Stankov found guncamera footage, showing two Mustangs. He believed this footage was from Kozhedub's La, but there are several strange things here: it beared german markings, also P-51's(or one of them) were carriying fuel tanks.
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1078/kozhedubguncamerafs5.jpg

Speaking about USAAF vs VVS, there were several incidents in Far East with wandering heavy bombers.
20 may 1945 two B-24 were shot at by aaa over Kamchatka.
11 july 1945 lone P-38 was under fire from aaa in the same region.
7 august 1945 two american planes near Kamen' Gavrjushkin island shot at two coast guard boats, killing 8 and wounding 14 men.
november 1945, NKorea, near Hanko, B-29 was forced to land by 4 P-39. At first the bomber crew refused to follow soviet planes, than one P-39 shot at bomber setting one of the engines on fire. B-29 landed safely, noone onboard was hurt. Crew was interned, plane sent to Moscow for evaluation.

[Kilgor]

He believed this footage was from Kozhedub's La, but there are several strange things here: it beared german markings, also P-51's(or one of them) were carriying fuel tanks.


Do you seriously believe the story about the German markings ?

[Mamont]

Do you seriously believe the story about the German markings ?What's there to believe? Open your eyes and see...

[Kilgor]

The wing markings have clearly a long rectangle and circle....

Was Heinz Thorvald / Major Koning also flying the plane by any chance ?

[Mamont]

The wing markings have clearly a long rectangle and circle....Kilgor, i mentioned film, not the planes...

[Kilgor]

Where is this "film" ?

And why is the above film strip Zeiss ?

And why did the Mustangs still have the drop tanks on when it was claimed they bounced him ?

[Mamont]

Where is this "film"? And why is the above film strip Zeiss ? And why did the Mustangs still have the drop tanks on when it was claimed they bounced him ?Kilgor, are you retarded?

[Indiana Jones]

Gentlemen, this is a misunderstanding.
Anyways, it would be beneficial for this exchange if both of you would abstain from insulting or personal remarks.

[Kilgor]

No, tell me what im missing

[Indiana Jones]

"Mamont" has apparently edited his remarks.
Initially, they were somewhat ambiguous, which is not surprising as English is obviously not his native language. Now, take a look the following dialogue:

The story behind Kozhedub's kills is not so clear. If i remember right, supposedly russian researcher Stankov found guncamera footage, showing two Mustangs. He believed this footage was from Kozhedub's La, but there are several strange things here: it beared german markings, also P-51's(or one of them) were carriying fuel tanks.

to which you replied:

Do you seriously believe the story about the German markings ?
which was adressed here:

Kilgor, i mentioned film, not the planes...

[Kilgor]

Now I get you....

[Jippo]

Interesting, when counting soviet overclaims you added aerial and aaa kills, but when counting german's - you considered only aerial victories. Interesting approach.


I give you the exact numbers & conditions that are in the book mentioned. I have no need to invent such things.

[The Blacksmith]

If you consider Allied Air losses during the whole of WW2 its not hard for me to believe a good German Fighter pilot could rack up somewhere close to that many kills. My countrys losses in the air over Europe numbered almost the same as Infantry killed on the ground during the war. The German fighter pilot was a very formidable weapon.

[wasser]

I'm struggling to find a link, but I do recall reading some reports about US missions in which US fighters and bombers landed in Soviet occupied territory near the end of the war, and about some misunderstandings/incidents between the Russians and Americans associated with these missions.

Also there were numerous US aircrew "captured" by the Soviets after the landed damaged aircraft or parachuted into Soviet occupied areas as the war ended and the fighting forces of both nations operated near each other, for example in Romania and Hungary.

this doesn't sound exactly like the incidents you're referring to, but Operation Frantic were missions conducted with cooperation between the US and Soviet forces. These were "shuttle" bombing missions - one way trips between bases in Italy or Uk and the Ukraine.




FRANTIC

Meanwhile, within the framework of ATC requirements and airborne assault campaigns, a variety of special operations took place. One of these proceeded under the code name, FRANTIC. During the winter of 1943–44, as Germany moved many factories to the east and out of range of Allied bomber strikes, the concept of “shuttle bombing” took hold. The idea rested on bombing missions that could originate in Britain and at Allied bases in Italy, strike German targets at long range, and then proceed to convenient airfields in the Soviet Union. Refueled and armed, the bombers would hit German targets again on their way home. After several frustrating planning sessions, Soviet Premier Joseph Stalin finally agreed to the concept in February 1944.

In haste, the U.S. Strategic Air Forces in Europe set up an Eastern Command to carry out the shuttle-bomb requirements for FRANTIC. Heavy equipment and bulky supplies went by sea to the port of Archangel, north of Leningrad (Saint Petersburg), and then to a quartet of new airfields in the Ukraine. Additional supplies and key personnel would fly in on ATC airplanes from U.S. bases in Iran. Delicate negotiations finally fixed a to-tal of forty-two round-trip ATC missions to make the bases operational for the AAF, and allowed an additional rate of two weekly support missions to sustain the U.S. contingent. The issue of flight communications eventually ended with a compromise, allowing U.S. crews to carry out navigation and radio duties with a Soviet observer resident at all related communications centers.

Eventually, the ATC in support of FRANTIC delivered some 450 personnel and thirty-six thousand pounds of cargo by June 1944. The same month, Gen. Ira Eaker made the first shuttle bombing mission with 129 B–17 bombers of the Mediterranean Air Force. Operations continued through the middle of August 1944, by which time the original sixteen tar-gets identified for Operation FRANTIC had been taken by the rapidly advancing Soviet offensives. A reluctant Stalin agreed to a winter intermission of operations; U.S. and Soviet advances by the spring of 1945 ended the need for shuttle missions and the ATC flew out the last U.S. contingent in June 1945. Operation FRANTIC demonstrated the flexibility of airlift equipment and personnel. It also demonstrated the political role of airlift logistics in terms of operational support that would have been impossible by conventional ground-based means.
source (http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/airlift/airliftpg5.htm)

I have heard of some accounts, specifically involving bomber crews from the 465th BG (55th BW, 15 AF) out of Italy where crews were either mistreated or treated well by the Soviets. All crews I'm aware of were eventually returned to duty.

[timetraveller]

Wasnt he the pilot that went on to fly in the USAF ... or am i thinking of another ,,,

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Kilgor, i mentioned film, not the planes...

Look at the film again...if those were German markings they would be darker than the aircraft's paint b/c the German cross was black. Look closely those are American markings.

[Indiana Jones]

Megaraptor;2850148']Look at the film again...if those were German markings they would be darker than the aircraft's paint b/c the German cross was black. Look closely those are American markings.
Reread the thread and my conversation with Kilgor in particular, Mamont was referring to the film itself where it says "Zeiss Ikon", which of course indicates German camera footage.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Reread the thread and my conversation with Kilgor in particular, Mamont was referring to the film itself where it says "Zeiss Ikon", which of course indicates German camera footage.


Oooooohhhh...I see. So it's just Luftwaffe footage of the downing of a Mustang.

[Indiana Jones]

Megaraptor;2850461']Oooooohhhh...I see. So it's just Luftwaffe footage of the downing of a Mustang.
I for one think so, yes- it was Mamont who contended it might be of Soviet origin.