Two Border Cities, One Shared Lifestyle

[Ordie]

National Perspectives
Two Border Cities, One Shared Lifestyle

By LISA CHAMBERLAIN
NY Times
El Paso
A TYPICAL morning for Maria Elena Giner’s family, as for most American households, is a whirlwind of activity as she and her husband, Antonio, get ready for work and prepare their daughters for school or day care. Unlike the average family, however, Ms. Giner’s routine includes a commute across the border into Mexico.
For Ms. Giner, 39, a dual citizen who grew up in Juárez, Mexico, there is nothing unusual about commuting over the Rio Grande, which separates El Paso from Juárez, and, increasingly, the same could be said for many other regular border crossers.
Even as border security has become a political hot potato, El Paso and Juárez remain very much connected. Just several blocks south from downtown El Paso is the bridge that empties into Avenida Juárez, a main thoroughfare.
The populations have grown in both cities as well, spurred largely by the rising number of international companies that have moved to Juárez to take advantage of the proximity to the American consumer market and cheap Mexican labor.
At the same time, relatively affordable housing prices have protected the entire region — northern Mexico, western Texas, southern New Mexico (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/great-homes-and-destinations/destinations/southwest/index.html?inline=nyt-geo), locally referred to as “New Texico” — from the downturn in the real estate market that has affected other parts of the United States, according to Charles de Wetter, the principal of Coldwell Banker de Wetter Hovious in El Paso.
While Juárez is generally still a poor city, housing options have improved as the Mexican middle class has grown. Where there used to be only cheap or very high-end housing, now there are more American-style subdivisions and gated communities, brokers say, and the prices are comparable to similar homes in El Paso.
In El Paso, “probably 30 to 40 percent of our business is with the growing middle-class population from Juárez, so prices have remained relatively stable,” Mr. de Wetter said. “We saw some activity over the past few years from investors from California and Phoenix, but El Paso never had huge appreciation like South Florida (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/great-homes-and-destinations/destinations/south-florida/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) or Vegas.”
He explained that the proximity of El Paso to Juárez creates an ideal environment for a dual-city culture, whereas “in San Diego (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/great-homes-and-destinations/destinations/southern-california/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) there’s a separation of 10 to 15 miles” from the Mexican border, he said. “Since the beginning, this has been viewed as one place, as one city.”
Home prices have also remained stable in Juárez. “We have a lot of activity,” said Jesús Otero, a principal owner of Century 21 Otero, referring to home sales. He also noted that demand was especially strong for Mexicans who own businesses in El Paso and live in Juárez.
But for dual citizens like Ms. Giner, which side of the border she lives on is a matter of personal choice. “Crossing the border is a normal part of life for us,” she said. “I want my kids to be bilingual and bicultural. It’s important for me that they know the Mexican holidays and culture, not just the language.” Her daughters Cassandra, 9, and Isabella, 4, go to a private Catholic school in Juárez while her youngest daughter, Sofia, 2, who has a rare genetic disorder, receives special care in El Paso.
The Giners have taken advantage of Mexico’s dual nationality law instituted in 1998. (Mexicans living in the United States, along with their American-born children, could acquire or reacquire rights as Mexican citizens.) Until recently, the family lived in Juárez and Ms. Giner commuted to her previous job in El Paso.
But after her husband sold their business, a restaurant in Juárez, and opened a new one in El Paso, they moved across the border to the lush Upper Valley neighborhood of El Paso. Three years ago they bought a 4,000-square-foot four-bedroom house for $250,000.
Home prices have held steady since then. As of September 2007, the average home in the Upper Valley sold for $225,000, versus $136,350 for all of El Paso, according to Mr. de Wetter.
Ms. Giner’s commute to her current job in Juárez as the director of projects for the Border Environment Cooperation Commission takes less than an hour. A dedicated commuter lane helps Ms. Giner to zip through the crossing, though the noncommuter lines have gotten longer lately in preparation for stricter border-crossing rules scheduled to take effect in January. They will require Americans to show a passport or other proof of citizenship to enter the United States; the requirements are part of antiterrorism legislation passed in 2004.
“What’s happening is officers at the border are checking documents more thoroughly,” said David M. Austin, a border representative for the Border Counties Coalition, a nonprofit advocacy organization. The scrutiny is affecting sales, “because people cross the border to shop. If they have to wait in line for three hours, they’re not going to come over.”
Ivonne Romero, 40, another dual national, is one of 242,000 vehicle passengers who cross the border daily. When she began commuting from Palomas, Mexico, to El Paso for high school, Route 9 — the highway that runs from Palomas across the border to New Mexico and then on to El Paso — was not even paved. Now she is doing the reverse commute on that same road from her home in El Paso to Palomas. She owns an arts and crafts gallery and restaurant called the Pink Store.
“We wanted to live in El Paso because I went to school there and where we live has some of the best public schools in the area,” she said. “It’s an hour and 10 minutes each way, but it’s a beautiful desert commute.” Ms. Romero, 40, and her husband, Sergio, 42, who also works at the Pink Store, have four children, ages 13 to 18.
The Romeros also live in the Upper Valley region, where they bought a three-quarter-acre plot for $40,000 in 1996. They built in phases over several years, spending another $180,000 to complete their 3,500-square-foot four-bedroom house.
As more people like the Giners and Romeros live on one side of the border yet work and shop on the other, the increasingly intertwined relationship between El Paso and Juárez is recognized as critical to the vitality of the region.
The cities are now working together on downtown redevelopment plans that would more formally link them. “El Paso and Juárez are sister cities,” said Veronica Rosales, redevelopment manager for the city of El Paso. She grew up experiencing the dual-city lifestyle, having been born in El Paso and going to school there, yet living in Juárez. “The bridges have a lot of traffic, and even our street grid systems tie in together,” she said. “So it makes sense to collaborate on redevelopment plans; we have a lot of folks who go back and forth.”



Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/28/realestate/28nati.html?_r=1&ex=1351224000&en=387e8126792c68db&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

[Firetxmi]

I live in a northern border city. It is an interesting deal actually. The Canadian city is bigger than ours and has more to offer really. Daily commutes across international borders is a daily affair up here for most. The most interesting thing for me though is that it is harder for me to get back into my own country (the U.S.), than it is for me to get into Canada.

[noname]

La Razas goal is a slow unnoticed takeover of large parts of the southwest United States. This article illustrates the how "the race" is actually doing quite well integrating and normalizing the effort to eventually erase the border and increase benefits for hispanics.

[Ordie]

La Razas goal is a slow unnoticed takeover of large parts of the southwest United States. This article illustrates the how "the race" is actually doing quite well integrating and normalizing the effort to eventually erase the border and increase benefits for hispanics.

I disagree.

Arbitrary political boundaries never deterred the movement of goods, services and societies.

For example one could make the argument that the cities of Vancouver, Victoria, Bellingham, Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia and Portland are all economically and socially interconnected.

Same can be said of Tijuana, San Diego, Los Angeles, Orange County, Bakersfield and Las Vegas.

or Toronto, Hamilton, Niagra, and Buffalo

For many people in these areas, the political boundaries of municipalities, counties, states, provences and nations are arbitrary lines.

[Felix U. Gómez]

noname: I wish that one day God will grant you the gift of a brain, I truly do. What a stupid and baseless comment.
I live in Juárez/El Paso, and what this article illustrates is what we have always known to be reality since the time of my great grandparents. To those that say that there is danger and insecurity on the US-Mexico border and demand several layers of twenty foot walls and the army at the border, the irony is that though El Paso (pop. 700,000+/-) is a virtual Siamese twin of Ciudad Juárez (pop. 1.5 million +/-), and with nearly a quarter of a million people going back and forth across the border each day, El Paso has consistently in the past decade made the top ten safest US cities with populations of 500,000 or more (several times). In fact, I don't think that any or many of the US' most dangerous cities are on the border with Mexico.

[Nano]

Felix,Dragunov and all the other Mexican members. Noname seems to enjoy getting a reaction out of you if you check all his other non-Mexican issue postings they don't all make as little sense as these do. I for one have read and decided ignoring him is the best policy. Noname has his mind set on believing something or the other about policies/issues. I think best would be ignore or refute his statement and leave him be. As to the issue it is as Ordie has stated. As to the issue of smuggling it is my experience that there is no boundary that anyone could not get in or out of be it land mines or carpet bombing like he so put it. If you want to know how I know this just ask Osama Bin Laden.

[shocker1]

I disagree.

Arbitrary political boundaries never deterred the movement of goods, services and societies.


For many people in these areas, the political boundaries of municipalities, counties, states, provences and nations are arbitrary lines.

So what context and meaning do these people derive the meaning of arbitrary? Is it in the positive context of cooperation? Or an inconvenient political line sometimes viewed as unrestrained power? It implies that the border is a negative thing and is getting in they way. Just my 2 cents on how I took that.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Arbitrary+

[Felix U. Gómez]

Well, if you ever come down here, I would be glad to give you a tour so you can look at it from the perspective of those that actually have lived here for generations.

[shocker1]

Well, if you ever come down here, I would be glad to give you a tour so you can look at it from the perspective of those that actually have lived here for generations.
Funny I have been to a few places in my day so don't be so pretentious. I mean don't stick your nose in the air when someone asks a simple question that had no ill intent.

[Ordie]

So what context and meaning do these people derive the meaning of arbitrary? Is it in the positive context of cooperation? Or an inconvenient political line sometimes viewed as unrestrained power? It implies that the border is a negative thing and is getting in they way. Just my 2 cents on how I took that.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Arbitrary+

Good points.

Shocker, in the past you pointed out the issues of blues laws in certian counties or the price of cigarettes from one state to the next. Are they effective in today's world of cars and highways?

In reality, people will just drive to the next county or state for those goods and services regardless of political boundaries.

I'm not saying its good nor bad.

It is what it is.

[shocker1]

Thank you for the answer. that is all I wanted to know. If it was a local attitude that is sorta detached from those who might not be there. It goes to show how things could have the same meaning but be taken very different elsewhere. The comparison to internal borders is not equal but the relationship is the same. I can understand that.

[Ritual]

I get a tour every almost week-end when I go to El Paso for my car clubs meetings and events.

I really... really like the border (the fence part). :|

[Shadowstorm]

The border fence is just a waste of money and time, because their other alternative ways to get in this country.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I get a tour every almost week-end when I go to El Paso for my car clubs meetings and events.

I really... really like the border (the fence part). :|

I don't really blame you for going to El Paso almost every weekend, Las Cruces is kind of smallish isn't it? When you say you get a tour, do you mean you actually cross the border, I mean, beyond the old run down tourist area of Avenida Juarez? As for the fence, it is something a kin to a decoration for most of us here on the border since 1/4 million people cross the border each day in both directions (legally) to go shopping, to work (on both sides), to dine, to visit relatives or friends, to study, to see a doctor, a dentist, a mechanic, a pharmacy, to see a movie, to fill up with gasoline, etc, etc. No offense, but I think that most Las Crucens (the ones that I've met at least) miss the big picture.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Funny I have been to a few places in my day so don't be so pretentious. I mean don't stick your nose in the air when someone asks a simple question that had no ill intent.

I meant it, I will give you a tour if you come down here. As for the border a negative or positive thing. It is a beautiful thing, it marks the beginning of my country, its like the skin on a beautiful woman, would you want to get rid of that?
It can be a pain to cross at times especially when the inspectors get all gung-ho or they feel like they need to justify asking for a bigger budget or something, but the fact of the matter is that it is there like it has been since more than a century and a half, and will continue being there for a long time. No one is advocating that it be removed, however the bonds on both sides are there, like they have always been and in fact are getting stronger, and they will always be there. We have a symbiotic relationship and one side would wither and die without the other. Like the article says, El Paso retailers depend on Juarenses for 30-40% of their retail sales. It is just a fact of life here.

[Aztec Eagle]

Im going to tell a story of a border family...

My great grandfather came and establish himself here in the city of Tijuana in 1921 after figthing in the Mexican Revolution and becaming a soldier if the Federal Maderista Army,he was sent here and after he finish hes duty in the Mexican Army he started working as a groundskeeper in our oldest park in the city,he use to cross to the states to buy suplies wen he said there was no one even watching over the border just an empty office.

A few years later my family would cross almost every day in to San Diego to buy groceries and supplys and bring them back, my grandmother use to tell me that the immigration officers would only ask them were your going and no paperwork was need it,in Tijuana few knew the Mexican pesos and even less would buy Mexican products if available,they did not know them or care about them since usually in there long trip from Mexico City they would spoil.

Later during WW2 started they keept a closer eye on the border because of the war,so my grandmother and her sister and brother had to get american visas¨pasaportes¨they called them,to shop and buy what ever was available,since there was not much to buy do to the war.

My grandmather use to draw a line behind her legs to give the apperance of wearing stockings since non were available and the material was beeing use for parachutes for the G.I.s

My grandmother use to love the big-band music of the era,and knew only of an american way of life and since she was young my grandmother started attending DEFENSA CIVIL or civil defense wich was intructed by Mexican Army personel and consited in a course given to any young male or female that wanted to defend LIBERTY and FREEDOM and one day my grandmother sister fell in love with a U.S. army officer who came over to visit and married him and after the war was over they wen to live in Los Angeles,soon all of my grandmother sister and brothers joined this DEFENSA CIVIL and some of them would help guard a communication station from the Mexican Army built in school in tijuana to send information to San Diego naval base in case something came up on the Mexican side or they spoted an enemy ship, it never happend.

(I have some pictures of this but i dont have a scanner, some day ill post them.)

In this city the wide spread use of the peso began in the 70¨s and also Mexican products started selling, Baja California is the youngest state in our nation it was establish as a state in 1953.

and today my family crosses every day my Uncle is a U.S. citizen and all hes family are born in the U.S.,but hes the only one that works in the U.S. side as a chef in the grand hotel in San Diego,my cousins the 2 girls are both doctors and since they were born in the U.S are citizens but none of the speaks english or lives there,can you belive it! they only cross the border to go shooping. My dad is a U.S. citizen and lives in Phoenix with my half brother also a citizen, my sister lives here in tijuana and shes also a U.S. citizen and works in San Diego me and my mom are Only Mexican Citizens and live here in Tijuana, we cross with a visa only to buy stuff and visit our family,from tmy window i can see all of the beutifull San Diego bay and its skyline and the coronado bridge in a clear day i can see the navy ships docking,i also see a big fence and a guarded border been guarded by black hacks and some ¨little birds¨ im use to seen them fly over,but during the night of the 4th of July a beatifull San Diego bay fills it self full of light from the fireworks and on September the 16 i also have the oportunity to see from my window the fireworks in our city hall.

So you see many of us had a to countrys that we have basically lived in all our life and have strong links in both sides of the fence.

[Ritual]

I go to school here, I'm not from here.
However, I'd like to thank you for implying I'm narrow minded :roll:.

I go to El Paso because that's where the meetings are held, not because it is some mecca of culture and power.

[AZRON]

The local cross border economy and back and forth interaction has been going on for a long time.
To many people on both sides daily movement was the norm.
Cities like San Diego , Tucson and El Paso had an excellent commercial segment that functioned very well in normal times based on cross border business and trade.
When the internal politics and economies of both sides or one side at a time gets feeling threatened troubles arise but the locals try to carry on with minimum outside interference . So it really can be seen as a world of it's own and nothing is really wrong in the shared lifestyle until pressures originating in the non-border areas end up at the border.

[Gfunk]

dual-citizenship, America and Mexico? I just threw up in my mouth

they should start building that border fence right between these two cities

[Ordie]

dual-citizenship, America and Mexico? I just threw up in my mouth

Dual citizenship is not recognized the US, however, it does not preclude the other country from recognizing dual citizenship.

Dual citizenship is the 'in' thing especially with European Union Countries. Many Americans are applying for EU passports based on the citizenship status of immigrant grand parents. This will allow the Americans and thier children the option to seek jobs, education, and property in Europe.

Given the state of the world today, its always good to have a Plan "B".

In the case with Mexico, dual citizenship gives more options for Mexican-American more access to property and investments in creating new wealth and jobs within Mexico. Thus mitigating the the flow of migrants up north.


they should start building that border fence right between these two cities

How about a river separating the two cities? would that work?

[JKD]

My friends and I used to go bar hopping down in Juarez in my late teens early twenties. Good times. Good times.

[Aztec Eagle]

dual-citizenship, America and Mexico? I just threw up in my mouth

they should start building that border fence right between these two cities


Dual citizenship,my sister and brother in law and niece they just got theres ,there Mexican and U.S. citizens and my uncles family are planing to get theres,they all live here in Mexico.

And your great idea about the fence,well let me inform you theres all ready two of them and it did not solve anything,how about that.

You are just another person that suposedly knows how to solve the problems along the border,but he lives thousands if miles away from it,and if lucky barely knows it,victim of xenophobic propaganda.

Heres some pics so you can get an idea...

U.S. on the left and Mexico on the right,you can see only one fence but theres 2 of them a second one is very tall and well made,they were going to cut down part of it because they built a huge shoping center next to the border and both citys wanted an avenue to go from Mexico directly to the U.S. in to the shoping center,its still iup in the air,but the shoping center is already built.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/16/229325041dd731e094boy0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/3633/tijuanavistapanoramicadgs7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8122/tijuanavistadelaenormebyf7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9527/84642440730733d213dy8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This one just on top of roof of the black building on the right is were the U.S begins.


Heres a skyline of Tijuana,Baja California and the San Diego Skyline is visible just behind the mountains,and you can also see the New City proyect wich will have 7 towers with 40 floors of luxury condos that will accomadate many Americans living in Mexico.

Just click on the picture to make it bigger.
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/354/tj2001rzo8.jpg

P.S. GFUNK ,If you want to trow up even more,i have news for you its been a while since both citys had discuss building a joint binational airport to serve both citys,the idea was trown out in the late 90´s and after 9/11 it seem dead, but came out of the ashes in the Fox administration and the died again and now manny in the U.S. side are pushing for it and whant the Mexican side to also help push the idea,but manny in both sides are still disaproving but the strongest arguments are NOT because of immigration or security but about MONEY since a lot of people feel that business would be lost in Mexico due to this, and vice versa.

[Aztec Eagle]

TIJUANA-SAN DIEGO BINATIONAL INTERNACIONAL AIRPORT.

By Joel Millman
From The Wall Street Journal

TIJUANA, Mexico -- Mexican developer Ralph Nieders has an offer for his neighbors in San Diego, whose desperate need for a new airport is surpassed only by their desperate not-in-my-backyard bickering over where to put it. He is offering his backyard, in Mexico.http://www.homesjournal.net/images/20010823-millman.gif



His idea is simply to put San Diego's next airport literally on the spot where California meets the Mexican state of Baja California, some 20 miles southeast of San Diego's tiny Lindbergh Field. It is being taken seriously on both sides of the border.

In effect, Mr. Nieders is proposing North America's first truly "international" airport, a facility shared by the U.S. and Mexico. U.S. airlines would relocate into new terminals on the California side of the site, alongside new restaurants and rental-car counters; Mexican airlines and services would stay put on the Mexico side. The airport's runways, maintenance hangars and fuel storage tanks -- and the clutter and the noise -- also would remain in Mexico.

Understandably, San Diego officials like these features and so are considering Tijuana among possible airport sites. "We all know Lindbergh Field can't handle the traffic," says Michael Hix, senior transportation planner for Sandag, the city's association of county and municipal governments. The airport "makes a lot of sense."

Ernesto Ruffo, Mexican President Vicente Fox's newly appointed "border czar," says Mr. Nieders's plan for a binational airport plan is a top priority. In addition to the noise, Mexico stands to reap a windfall of at least $100 million in annual runway and scheduling fees from Mexican and U.S. airlines, a sum it could never hope to earn serving Tijuana alone.

Costing between $50 million and $100 million to cover land, access roads and the terminal itself, the binational airport would be a bargain compared with other airports' billion-dollar price tags. The reason it is possible is that the Mexican half is already in place. Tijuana's General Abelardo Rodriguez International Airport -- Mexico's fourth largest, with 3.5 million passengers annually, most of them U.S.-bound -- lies just 10 yards from the U.S.-Mexico line.
Its main runway runs along 2,000 feet of border fence.
Mr. Nieders, a 47-year-old architect and son of a Norwegian immigrant to Mexico, powers up a computer-generated version of his cross-border vision.
Satellite-view photos and artists' renderings reveal a new terminal whose chief function would be to funnel U.S. passengers briefly into Mexico to board planes sitting on runways there. Ticket counters, baggage handling and security for U.S. passengers would stay in the U.S. A pedestrian bridge, accessible only to ticketed passengers, would take them via moving sidewalk over the border.
The two governments would probably insist on putting a combined immigration-customs checkpoint on the bridge, to handle passengers traveling on domestic U.S. flights. International passengers would continue to pass through immigration and customs posts just as they do now. As for control of contraband and illegal immigrants, Mr. Nieders says the border crossing would be entirely indoors and as easy to police as that at any international airport where passengers change planes.
Mr. Nieders consults with the managers of Tijuana's airport, Grupo Aeroportuario del Pacifico SA, the Spanish-run consortium that won a 25-year concession to operate Mexico's western airports in a 1999 privatization. The Spaniards thought enough of Mr. Nieders's plan that they made him their point man for marketing.
Lindbergh Field itself is probably the best argument for a border airport. Passengers last year numbered 16 million, more than five times the Tijuana airport's traffic. Virtually within walking distance of downtown San Diego, the once-remote airfield has been swallowed by an expanding city.
Opened the year after Charles Lindbergh's historic trans-Atlantic flight in 1928, Lindbergh Field sits on a 500-acre pocket of land, hemmed in by a Navy base on one side and some of the West Coast's priciest homes on the others. Its single runway is too short for the latest generation of jumbo jets. Its two parking lots are so cramped that visitors arriving after 9 a.m. often find that the spaces are all taken.
San Diego planners have been searching for a decade for a new airport location within county limits. Community activists have lobbied to keep it away from the wealthy neighborhoods of Mission Hills and La Jolla. Two other possible sites -- the old U.S. Navy air station at Miramar and land adjacent to the Marine Corps' Camp Pendleton -- share a different obstacle: more than 10,000 rounds of unexploded shells lying just below ground level, a dangerous and expensive problem to remove.
Mexican officials have proposed letting California use their airspace before, but the idea languished amid anti-immigrant sentiment. Then the 1994 peso collapse put most border infrastructure plans on hold. Since then, commerce between the Californias has surged to $20 billion a year under the 1994 North American Free Trade Agreement. Businesses on both sides are clamoring for more air-cargo capacity.
Mr. Nieders's binational terminal leaves much of the revenue-generating potential in the U.S. The more lucrative parking, restaurants, car-rental agencies and shops would be in San Diego -- activity that could raise an estimated $25 million in payroll, property and sales taxes annually for the city, according to forecasts by San Diego's port authority.
Mexico has something else San Diego needs: unused landing rights for Asian carriers arriving from across the Pacific. Those rights would entitle U.S. flights departing from a border airport to land in Tokyo, Seoul, South Korea, and Taipei, Taiwan -- something they can't do now from Lindbergh Field's short runway.

[shocker1]

Dual citizenship is not recognized the US, however, it does not preclude the other country from recognizing dual citizenship.

Dual citizenship is the 'in' thing especially with European Union Countries. Many Americans are applying for EU passports based on the citizenship status of immigrant grand parents. This will allow the Americans and thier children the option to seek jobs, education, and property in Europe.

Given the state of the world today, its always good to have a Plan "B".

In the case with Mexico, dual citizenship gives more options for Mexican-American more access to property and investments in creating new wealth and jobs within Mexico. Thus mitigating the the flow of migrants up north.




Sounds like you are for an EU style North America. No thanks pal, I will pass on that.





You are just another person that suposedly knows how to solve the problems along the border,but he lives thousands if miles away from it,and if lucky barely knows it,victim of xenophobic propaganda.

.
I think his frustration granted expressed in a harsh way is valid. The issue to most American's(the ones who do not live in border towns) is the influx of illegal workers into places like Chattanooga TN or Dalton Ga. Where cross border town cultural issues are irrelevant and jails are full of violent criminal elements fleeing Mexico. Citizens in the State of Georgia being put in jail for no car insurance and non-violent illegal immigrants being released on same charge as policy also gets under the skin. Countless other issues including nationalism which is not a bad thing also cause problems.

When it comes to xenophobic propaganda I think the Spanish media outlets here in North America have that won. Would you not agree? I mean your thread on Mexico and racism proved that with how things are presented.

[tuercas]

transborder relations are an everyday reality here in Nuevo Laredo/Laredo Tx. i cross to laredo Tx many times during the week or even day, mostly for grocery shopping, meat and paper goods are cheaper in the US. and to go to the movies, i also enjoy fast food better on the US side. on the same token, many Laredo Texans cross to Mex daily for similar reasons and to go to the doctor and shopping for produce. Bussinesses are intertwined, some examples to note; most tv channels , including american tv channels, have their transmitters on the Mex side. most large bussineses have both Mexico and Laredo tx branches. for a long time , up until the late 70's , you didnt even need a day pass to cross to the US side.

traffic is crasy both ways of the bridge, check out the live bridge cameras
http://www.cityoflaredo.com/bridgesys/bridge4cam.html

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q124/elguaje/hugeb2cam2.jpg
[typical evening rush hour traffic heading to the US. mostly Americans who work in Mex and Mexicans going grocery shopping after work.]

[Noble713]

I used to be stationed at Ft. Bliss. The thing that bugs me the most is the language barrier. I have no desire to learn Spanish; I just don't like the way it sounds. I picked up small bits of Russian, Japanese, and Korean when I was in each of those countries and I'm studying Chinese now, so I don't have an opposition to learning other languages in general, it's just the Romance Languages that irk me (side effects of having French forced down my throat for a decade?).

El Paso does have SOME good points: nice clubs with cheap beer, gorgeous women, surprisingly good strip clubs, a small metal & goth community, and cheap pussy right across the border (ask a cabbie to take you if you aren't familiar with the area). But between the gigantic roaches, the heat, the sandstorms, and people talking to me in Spanish, I don't like it. And I sure as Hell don't want to see more of my country start to resemble it.

To quote Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction:
"English, motherfvcker, do you speak it?!"

[Ordie]

I used to be stationed at Ft. Bliss. The thing that bugs me the most is the language barrier. I have no desire to learn Spanish; I just don't like the way it sounds. I picked up small bits of Russian, Japanese, and Korean when I was in each of those countries and I'm studying Chinese now, so I don't have an opposition to learning other languages in general, it's just the Romance Languages that irk me (side effects of having French forced down my throat for a decade?).

Too many vowels?

[Felix U. Gómez]

When it comes to xenophobic propaganda I think the Spanish media outlets here in North America have that won. Would you not agree? I mean your thread on Mexico and racism proved that with how things are presented.

Just when I was beginning to think that you were of a little more open minded kind you go and throw out a real gem like this one. The Spanish media outlets in the US have xenophobic propaganda won? I mean do you even understand Spanish? Can you prove this? First of all what do you mean by "Spanish media outlets"? Univision is US owned and operated, it is not Mexican as many real xenophobes assume. Second, name the Spanish xenophobes that have shows on TV, I can give you a lot of names of the the English Xenophobes, and those are individuals that thrive off the immigration issue and alarmisms like the one you said about "jails full of violent criminal elements". For example you've got Lou Dobbs (worth his weight in crap), Bill Oreilly from Fox, the other idiot on CNN with angry white man syndrome, and a mob of radio talk show hosts across the US that if it weren't for illegal immigration would likely be cleaning winshields on the street. No my friend, no one beets Americans at the xenophobia game, yours is just a delusion.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I used to be stationed at Ft. Bliss. The thing that bugs me the most is the language barrier. I have no desire to learn Spanish; I just don't like the way it sounds. I picked up small bits of Russian, Japanese, and Korean when I was in each of those countries and I'm studying Chinese now, so I don't have an opposition to learning other languages in general, it's just the Romance Languages that irk me (side effects of having French forced down my throat for a decade?).

El Paso does have SOME good points: nice clubs with cheap beer, gorgeous women, surprisingly good strip clubs, a small metal & goth community, and cheap pussy right across the border (ask a cabbie to take you if you aren't familiar with the area). But between the gigantic roaches, the heat, the sandstorms, and people talking to me in Spanish, I don't like it. And I sure as Hell don't want to see more of my country start to resemble it.

To quote Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction:
"English, motherfvcker, do you speak it?!"

Need I say more about xenophobia and ignorance? Exhibit A. :roll:

[Shadowstorm]

Will Bill O' Reilly doesn't support criminal illegal immigrants which I don't support either. But I do agree on Lou Dobbs and some of these people which take it to the extreme.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Will Bill O' Reilly doesn't support criminal illegal immigrants which I don't support either. But I do agree on Lou Dobbs and some of these people which take it to the extreme.

Bill O'Reilly is a gem of a turd. He was surprised to see black people acting "civilized" in a black restaurant. He makes these statements and he gets away with it. He also got away with ****** harassment. The guy is crap. As for criminal illegal immigrants, I don't support criminal elements of "any" kind, illegal or legal, not even ****** harassers.

[shocker1]

Just when I was beginning to think that you were of a little more open minded kind you go and throw out a real gem like this one. The Spanish media outlets in the US have xenophobic propaganda won? I mean do you even understand Spanish? Can you prove this? First of all what do you mean by "Spanish media outlets"? Univision is US owned and operated, it is not Mexican as many real xenophobes assume. Second, name the Spanish xenophobes that have shows on TV, I can give you a lot of names of the the English Xenophobes, and those are individuals that thrive off the immigration issue and alarmisms like the one you said about "jails full of violent criminal elements". For example you've got Lou Dobbs (worth his weight in crap), Bill Oreilly from Fox, the other idiot on CNN with angry white man syndrome, and a mob of radio talk show hosts across the US that if it weren't for illegal immigration would likely be cleaning winshields on the street. No my friend, no one beets Americans at the xenophobia game, yours is just a delusion.
So is this an "angry brown man syndrome" rant? Or is your's an "angry white man syndrome too? The comment was directed at the poster I quoted not you. He posted the Mexican Racism thread and came to those conclusions. His post here was contradictory to his other posts. I can not speak Spanish worth a damn but understand enough to read it and hear it from a very slow speaker. I suggest you assess your own issues.

[Noble713]

Need I say more about xenophobia and ignorance? Exhibit A. :roll:


So because I don't like the way your language sounds I must be ignorant? That's like saying someone is a hateful jackas$ because they don't like the color green.

[Ordie]

So because I don't like the way your language sounds I must be ignorant?.

I don't like the Mandarin language (too many tones), but it does not mean I do not like Chinese food and culture.

Pot stickers anyone?

[Noble713]

I don't like the Mandarin language (too many tones)

Yeah, tones are a pain. I think you might be right about not liking an excessive amount of vowels, but I had never looked at it that way before.


If most of Central or South America spoke German or something, I'd be planning trips to Brazil all the damn time.

[tipsovr]

It seems to me that most of the negative thoughts regarding immigration from our southern border stem around the fact that so many of those coming from the south have no intention of integrating into AMERICAN society. If I were to move to Berlin, I would not expect the Germans to pander to my American ideals. I should be expected to understand my new host country's ideals, beliefs and if I expect to stay in that new country; began to adopt them as my own.

My own mother immigrated to the U.S. back in the mid 50's. She did it legally with the rest of her family. They also learned to speak English and did so happily to feel more American. I get very angry when I am in the grocery store (or anywhere else for that matter) and I see adult immigrants conversing with their young children in their native language. Speak English when you are in this country. It is easier for everyone and makes it much more probable that Americans will accept you. We (American's) don't wish to have our "American way" destroyed. Sorry if you feel that is narrow minded. It is just a nationalistic pride I feel in being an American. (as I am sure those of you from Mexico feel about your country)

[Ordie]

My own mother immigrated to the U.S. back in the mid 50's. She did it legally with the rest of her family. They also learned to speak English and did so happily to feel more American. I get very angry when I am in the grocery store (or anywhere else for that matter) and I see adult immigrants conversing with their young children in their native language. Speak English when you are in this country. It is easier for everyone and makes it much more probable that Americans will accept you. We (American's) don't wish to have our "American way" destroyed. Sorry if you feel that is narrow minded. It is just a nationalistic pride I feel in being an American. (as I am sure those of you from Mexico feel about your country)

I understand and appreciate your comments. Like yourself, my parents (Argentine-Italian Father/Mexican Mother) were immigrants (undocumented) I was the green card baby. Growing up, the household language was Spanish.

For my parents it was important for all us to be bi-lingual, themselves included.

The major motivator was $$$$. Without English there were limited opportunites for economic growth.

My parents also taught us to be respectful of people who do not speak Spanish and not to exclude anyone in our conversations. If we had one non-Spanish speaking guest at a party, we made it a point to speak English or translate for them-common courtesy 101.

As far as the previlance of foreign languages in daily American society, its always has been the norm. Many American words such as "Rodeo", "Shmuck", and "Gung Ho" were contributed by immigrants or adopted by Americans overseas.

One reason why one gets the impression that immigrants are not assimilating or acculturating is the economics of the marketplace.

Hispanic community represents approximately $700 billion in sales for major retailers and manufacturers. To capture this highly valued market, companies will attract and cater to the consumers needs through Spanish.

Another reason is the patronizing multicultural attitude of policymakers. The issue here is that many locals may feel threatened and unsure how to respond to the new presence immigrants.

At the same time, it does not allow immigrants the opportunities to integrate with the society at large, seek, change or escape cultural norms (i.e. role of women, dowry, arraigned marriages, servitude, religion, or social obligations).

Without English, my father, a US citizen, would not have built his company of over 500 employees in the US and give franchise opportunities for many locals, nor would my mother who operated a successful hair salon and put us all through college.

The primary reason why I joined the US Navy was to give back what this country had given my parents even if it meant my life.

At the same time, my parents gave us the gift of Spanish as a means open new doors of opportunities in the global marketplace.

[Gerle]

My own mother immigrated to the U.S. back in the mid 50's. She did it legally with the rest of her family. They also learned to speak English and did so happily to feel more American. I get very angry when I am in the grocery store (or anywhere else for that matter) and I see adult immigrants conversing with their young children in their native language. Speak English when you are in this country. It is easier for everyone and makes it much more probable that Americans will accept you. We (American's) don't wish to have our "American way" destroyed.

I don't need to speak English (why isn't it American?) to feel American.

I know, keeping my kids tri-lingual is really something that ought to piss you off... I mean, the two languages they have besides Ame... sorry, English probably won't come in handy later on, right? I speak whatever language I feel like, whenever, wherever, because I can. You say it makes it easier if I use English, easier for who to do what? I use whatever language I want to with my kids, as does my wife, be it English, Swedish or Spanish.

I don't want the American way destroyed either, and I think my way of raising my kids will help preserving our country, open and accepting as it should be!

[tipsovr]

^I too was raised to speak two languages. However, we spoke English in the United States because that is the language of the Untited States. If/when in other countries I will do my best to speak the native language no matter how bad I suck at it.

Speaking multiple languages is a comlete bonus in this world. It makes you much more marketable in today's society. However, speak the language of where your feet are. I wish I spoke seven languages, but I don't. That way when I am in France I wouldn't feel like a moron slaying the French language trying to order a Coke. At least I try.

One of my major concerns for people speaking English in the United States (and yes, we have gotten off track from the OP) is because of my job. I have been a police officer for more than 10 years now. How are we supposed to help those who won't speak English in the United States????? It makes my job and those of all public servants (EMS, police, etc) almost impossible. But hey, speak whatever you want. Don't blame me if I don't understand you.

[Gerle]

Tipsovr, yes, in that sense I agree, to others we speak English, and within the family whatever suits the situation. If you live in America you have to learn English, that's the way it is! But you still may speak whatever you want, to people who understand you. There's no official language (to my knowledge) in the country as a whole, however some of the states have one or more official languages.

As a police officer I bet you see a lot of people who need to learn English, I understand the frustration there!

[Felix U. Gómez]

So because I don't like the way your language sounds I must be ignorant? That's like saying someone is a hateful jackas$ because they don't like the color green.

Your posts need no reply. I present this as exhibit B.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yeah, tones are a pain. I think you might be right about not liking an excessive amount of vowels, but I had never looked at it that way before.


If most of Central or South America spoke German or something, I'd be planning trips to Brazil all the damn time.

It's a good thing that they all speak Spanish then. One Hugo Chavez type is enough for us.

[Felix U. Gómez]

It seems to me that most of the negative thoughts regarding immigration from our southern border stem around the fact that so many of those coming from the south have no intention of integrating into AMERICAN society. If I were to move to Berlin, I would not expect the Germans to pander to my American ideals. I should be expected to understand my new host country's ideals, beliefs and if I expect to stay in that new country; began to adopt them as my own.

My own mother immigrated to the U.S. back in the mid 50's. She did it legally with the rest of her family. They also learned to speak English and did so happily to feel more American. I get very angry when I am in the grocery store (or anywhere else for that matter) and I see adult immigrants conversing with their young children in their native language. Speak English when you are in this country. It is easier for everyone and makes it much more probable that Americans will accept you. We (American's) don't wish to have our "American way" destroyed. Sorry if you feel that is narrow minded. It is just a nationalistic pride I feel in being an American. (as I am sure those of you from Mexico feel about your country)

If US tourists are any indicators of how you behave while in other countries, well, quite simply your thesis wouldn't stand up. When they travel to Mexico they NEVER even bother to try to speak Spanish, they just come up to people and start speaking English. Then, when they return to the US they say that the only thing that they didn't like was the fact that "those people don't speak English". However, unlike you I don't get all worked up about them when they start speaking English in my country, I just help them out. The same pattern with US citizens is repeated over and over everywhere they go, they expect everyone to speak English. I believe that US citizens are sometimes treated rudely in France is because they just go up to people, don't excuse themselves or anything, and just start speaking English.
As for me, I often go across the border to El Paso for various reasons, and when speaking to friends or relatives (or my children) I speak my native language. I'm not sorry if that bothers you, it's not your business.
By the way, Spanish has been consistently spoken in parts of the US since way before English, and in New Mexico, it is an official language together with English.

[Felix U. Gómez]

One of my major concerns for people speaking English in the United States (and yes, we have gotten off track from the OP) is because of my job. I have been a police officer for more than 10 years now. How are we supposed to help those who won't speak English in the United States????? It makes my job and those of all public servants (EMS, police, etc) almost impossible. But hey, speak whatever you want. Don't blame me if I don't understand you.

What do you care what somebody speaks when speaking to their child? What business is it of yours if I ask my kid what flavor ice-cream she wants in Spanish?
As for police work, I know a hell of a lot of policemen in El Paso that speak Spanish, they are not rare. Many Mexican cities, including Mexico City, also have bilingual officers. Could it be that you and people like you are afraid that they will make that a requirement where you work and that will make you sort of obsolete?

[Dragunov]

English classes are mandatory in Mexican Junior and High school years. Because of the new job market. Many companies come from the USA. If you want to get a good job, learning English is the way to go.

Of course, don't expect your average illegal immigrant to speak English, most of them didn't event complete the 6th grade. Most of them do farm work since they are kids.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Along the border, on both sides of the border, being bilingual is a big plus, while being monolingual is a minus.

[tipsovr]

If US tourists are any indicators of how you behave while in other countries, well, quite simply your thesis wouldn't stand up. When they travel to Mexico they NEVER even bother to try to speak Spanish, they just come up to people and start speaking English. Then, when they return to the US they say that the only thing that they didn't like was the fact that "those people don't speak English". However, unlike you I don't get all worked up about them when they start speaking English in my country, I just help them out. The same pattern with US citizens is repeated over and over everywhere they go, they expect everyone to speak English. I believe that US citizens are sometimes treated rudely in France is because they just go up to people, don't excuse themselves or anything, and just start speaking English.
As for me, I often go across the border to El Paso for various reasons, and when speaking to friends or relatives (or my children) I speak my native language. I'm not sorry if that bothers you, it's not your business.
By the way, Spanish has been consistently spoken in parts of the US since way before English, and in New Mexico, it is an official language together with English.

Ok, you and I are talking about two different things. You are talking about tourists. I am talking about people who are moving to this country permanently. If you are vexed b/c Americans or Koreans or Lithuanians for that matter don't speak Spanish when they vacation in your country, so be it. However, how would you feel if suddenly there was a mass influx of non-Spanish speaking people {12-20,000,000} of them who don't speak Spanish. These same people have moved to Mexico permanently and are now demanding services in English or some other language. How do you feel about them after they have been living there for several years and have not made much of an effort to learn your language? (I am the first to admit that not all Spanish speaking immigrants don't learn English, but the vast majority of them coming to the U.S. don't) Tourists are a completely different story. I treat tourists the same way I hope to be treated when touring another country.

Regarding police work. Maybe I am just an ignorant nimrod, but expecting U.S. police officers to learn every single language that comes to our borders is a bit difficult. What is not difficult is learning the primary language of the country you have chosen to move to. Just seems logical to me, but hey, I'm just another narrow minded American.

Mr. Gomez, you and I will obviously continue to disagree on this matter. You will not change my mind, nor do I wish to change yours. You are happy in your country as I am in mine. Have a nice day there.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Please tell us in which city you work in. I would gladly avoid going there as I would be afraid to be automatically confused with an illegal alien by the local police if I spoke Spanish. Please explain how you distinguish between a Spanish speaking tourist and a Spanish speaking illegal alien, or for that matter a Spanish speaking legal alien of which there are many? Are you aware that Mexicans are among the most numerous visitors to the US when it comes to foreign tourists, and that is not counting tourists from all the other Spanish speaking countries in the world? It seems to me that you only have a problem with people speaking Spanish, not any other European language. Scary indeed when one thinks that that is how the local police thinks.
You are right when you say that it wouldn't make sense to expect police in the US to learn every foreign language that comes to its borders, that would be ridiculous. I will admit that. However, Spanish is not exactly Loathian. To begin with as I stated earlier, there are parts of the US where Spanish has been spoken since way before English, and Spanish is by a long shot the second most widely spoken language in the US. It is also the most widely spoken language in the continent. It would not make sense for police to learn so many languages that people take to the US, but by shear importance it would make sense to learn Spanish. A friend of mine visiting Paris, told me that the announcements in the Paris subway were given in three languages: French (obviously), English, and Spanish. Even the French know its importance.
You are also right on the fact that you are not going to change my mind. Have a nice day also.

[Dragunov]

My family goes shopping to the US. ;] And my friend's family also.