School integration has failed

[Red]

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/11/Opinion/School_integration_is.shtml

I happen to agree with a lot of what this article says. Please can we have a civil discussion about this?

[Rictor]

Racist!! Kill him, kill the racist! Quick, before he poisons our children's minds!

[Red]

I mean it is a good idea. If it is going to be seperate, at least make it equal. Once it is equal in terms of funding, then it's all good.

[Firetxmi]

I mean it is a good idea. If it is going to be seperate, at least make it equal. Once it is equal in terms of funding, then it's all good.

"..separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." Brown v. Board of Education. 347 U.S. 483 (1954)

[Red]

"..separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." Brown v. Board of Education. 347 U.S. 483 (1954)

Well if you give equla funding then I don't see how they become unequal. The country is already pretty much segregated by choice anyway so I don't see why we should not invest in our kids the right amount of money and time in a space that is comfortable for all. This is what is happening right now anyway so why not just make it official.

[Firetxmi]

Well if you give equla funding then I don't see how they become unequal. The country is already pretty much segregated by choice anyway so I don't see why we should not invest in our kids the right amount of money and time in a space that is comfortable for all. This is what is happening right now anyway so why not just make it official.

Because to legally do it would go against the 14th Amendment of our Constitution as well as go against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241, July 2, 1964).

In most areas the funding for schools comes from property taxes. With that in mind take a look at areas that are predominantly black- are they wealthy? How do you propose that each school receives equal funding?

[Red]

Because to legally do it would go against the 14th Amendment of our Constitution as well as go against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241, July 2, 1964).

In most areas the funding for schools comes from property taxes. With that in mind take a look at areas that are predominantly black- are they wealthy? How do you propose that each school receives equal funding?

Good point. There has to be some other way to fund seperate schools though because what we have now does not work. In terms of the quality of education for a lot of black kids, things were better before forced integration. (Again that is just in terms of the quality)

[Firetxmi]

Good point. There has to be some other way to fund seperate schools though because what we have now does not work. In terms of the quality of education for a lot of black kids, things were better before forced integration. (Again that is just in terms of the quality)

If they were so good for black kids then why did the Warren court unanimously find de jure segregation "inherently unequal?"

The schools for black students were lacking in funds, and educational opportunities for their students.

[Red]

If they were so good for black kids then why did the Warren court unanimously find de jure segregation "inherently unequal?"

The schools for black students were lacking in funds, and educational opportunities for their students.

They were but what i pointed out was the quality. Before the NAACP took the case to court, some states were trying to equalize the schools but Brown Vs Board took all that away. So now what we have left to deal with in 2007 is the failure of Brown Vs Board. Schools are no more integrated than they were in the 50's, the gap between white and black kids is so at such a level that could not have been fathomed in the 50's. My premise for this is simple, schools are already highly segregated already so re-segregating is not too much of a stretch anyways. Think about life in America anyways, the only time there is real integration is normally between the 9am and 5 pm and after that it becomes highly segregated again...even on Sunday mornings.

[nagant_m44]

"..separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." Brown v. Board of Education. 347 U.S. 483 (1954)

it still exists unofficially though. A good example is Tallahassee, FL. Florida state was once the white school, and FAMU was the black school. Nowadays, FAMU is still 95% black. Its become a part of culture now I guess.

[vryhpyammoadded]

I personally believe in a highly decentralized education system using local funding, regulation and curricula with the sugar daddy Feds out of the picture. If a town, city, county, state are not up to snuff then people should be active politically and fix there local problems or move to greener pastures.

Further, if a local government refuses to compete, producing minds of lesser quality, then it should be free to wither on the national vine so to say. I place the onus upon there own, committing effective cultural suicide being unworthy of survival. If their local system works with integration then great, if not, then that’s fine too, let them fail or succeed as they will.

[Albatross]

Life is not fair, get over it. Lets move on.

[angry cow]

Having served with soldiers who came from poor communities, I have definitely seen and heard first hand how few their opportunities are. And the sad truth, the truth that NEEDS to be addressed for the good of our nation, is that these communities are predominantly Black or Hispanic. Having a segregated society is bad for everyone, it creates a static social and economic situation for all, which hurts innovation and keeps our economy from being dynamic. Legislation which attempts to equalize the amount that each school gets is a flawed idea, because some schools need more resources than others to deal with additional challenges, such as students social situations and how large or small the school's geographic district is.

What we need now is AGGRESSIVE redistribution of students in order to remove social and economic barriers by force. When it comes to educating their children, no parent is liberal enough to send their child to a lesser school in order to give a less fortunate student a chance at better education. But that is what needs to happen. Busing sucks for everybody, but it pays off.

[Red]

Having served with soldiers who came from poor communities, I have definitely seen and heard first hand how few their opportunities are. And the sad truth, the truth that NEEDS to be addressed for the good of our nation, is that these communities are predominantly Black or Hispanic. Having a segregated society is bad for everyone, it creates a static social and economic situation for all, which hurts innovation and keeps our economy from being dynamic. Legislation which attempts to equalize the amount that each school gets is a flawed idea, because some schools need more resources than others to deal with additional challenges, such as students social situations and how large or small the school's geographic district is.

What we need now is AGGRESSIVE redistribution of students in order to remove social and economic barriers by force. When it comes to educating their children, no parent is liberal enough to send their child to a lesser school in order to give a less fortunate student a chance at better education. But that is what needs to happen. Busing sucks for everybody, but it pays off.

The fact of the matter as I see it is that blacks and whites will never get along in America. That said, I have noticed that White parents have to move their kids to expensive private schools or Chruch schools so that their kids won't be bused to schools with minorities. Instead we can have seperate schools for whites and blacks with good funding and a return to the fundametals of quality education. That way each group can stay out of each others way. The current system already works that way minus the quality and people staying out of their way. One other problem is that by having white kids go to these schools with minorities, it basically says that the minorities are beholden to the white folks who have a higer tax pay in. That is a call for trouble. Instead of this country to look at failed concepts like integration and race relations, we can try and find a way to fund seperate schools where each can return to the way it was done in the past which is emphasize quality. No more social promotions, kids who can't meet standards etc. This way is better for everyone don't you think.

[Rictor]

I personally believe in a highly decentralized education system using local funding, regulation and curricula with the sugar daddy Feds out of the picture. If a town, city, county, state are not up to snuff then people should be active politically and fix there local problems or move to greener pastures.

Further, if a local government refuses to compete, producing minds of lesser quality, then it should be free to wither on the national vine so to say. I place the onus upon there own, committing effective cultural suicide being unworthy of survival. If their local system works with integration then great, if not, then that’s fine too, let them fail or succeed as they will.

Pfff, that would make far too much sense. Clearly you're some kind paleoconservative dinosaur.

[Lokos]

The unfortunate fact is that these changes are circularly vicious. Many of these kids aren't expected to do well, don't do well, don't add to the prestige of the school, which ends up not expecting much of itself or its students when it comes to quality education, which ends with the kids not doing well, and therefore... not being expected to do well.

Somewhere in that chain, something has to be broken.

Of course, there are other relevant factors at play. But as far as I am aware, a minority majority (i.e. minorities make up the majority of the student body) school generally is not considered creme de la creme. Plenty of the blame can be placed on the doorstep of inadequate funding and support. But let's face it; these kids aren't coming from the same background as their white/Asian counterparts. There is little culture of education. The aspiration, unfortunately, is just not there for many of them. Compare that to the Asian community. Even the poorest instills the need for academic progress.

Grassroots changes, folks! That's where you've got to start with everything.

EDIT:

LOL, reading some of those comments is magic:


by Amy 10/11/07 07:12 PM
Integration in school is forced integration. If it appears to be working, it is precisely because it's FORCED. Incidently, there's nothing to be proud of in having miscegenation going on in one's family. It's extremely damaging to all white races.


Yikes.

I'll note that the vast majority of the commentary doesn't run along those lines, thankfully.

Lokos

[Kaplanr]

This is all well and good, but it would be interesting to have the input of some blacks, older and younger.

On the one hand, one can make a case that in the days of segreagation, many blacks were better off, at least in the cities. "They" maintained their own retail businesses and didn't seem to be as plagued with the social issues that are at epidemic proportions today - single parent families, levels of incarceration, unemployment, under-educaton. Having said that, it doesn't address the abject poverty in the black community in rural areas prior to the civil rights era, and the fact that along with the seperate and unequal educational systems addressed by Brown v. Board of Ed., blacks, even with adequate opportunities had no opportunities to exercise the education they may have attained.

For all of you who like to tout "local control", and the others who once upon a time touted "States' Rights" (and I'm not equating the two), remember that the US couldn't pass an anti-lynching law. SOmething sadly necessary in a day and age when the law wasn't uniformly or equally enforced, applied, or even an ally of the innocent black citizen.

Imagine if we had seperate schools for Asian-Americans or Indian Americans (the subcontinent). What'cha gonna do when they start outperforming the rest of us and getting all the competitive academic and professional slots? The prototype for that was already done in Germany when someone decided Jews were too successful.

[Red]

^^

Blacks right from the days of slavery had a very strong drive for education (many blacks taught themselved english and so forth)so that is a myth that blacks never valued education. I am all well and good with segregation as long as one side does not hinder upward movement. The problem with what was done back in the day was seperate and unequal. A white kid does not need to sit next to a black kid to learn and vice versa and given past history it can succed if funded right. This was you have seperate communities that are independent of each other that won't get in each others way and create friction with one another. Again it all boils down to the $$ because once you can find the $$ the legal school re-segregation based on race should be given a chance. If it works, then each side wins.

[Lokos]

Blacks right from the days of slavery had a very strong drive for education (many blacks taught themselved english and so forth)so that is a myth that blacks never valued education.

I am entirely an outsider in this debate. And almost all the black persons I've known have been highly educated individuals. But I don't know if there is a huge emphasis on education in the majority of black communities in the US. Maybe there is and my perception is simply mistaken. But I think it is important to take into account the different backgrounds of the kids involved. Saying that more funding will fix everything is only partially true. Better teachers and facilities can only do so much when the kids themselves are not raised in optimal conditions.


"They" maintained their own retail businesses and didn't seem to be as plagued with the social issues that are at epidemic proportions today - single parent families, levels of incarceration, unemployment, under-educaton.

Inner city black communities are still pretty 'segregated', aren't they?

Lokos

[Red]

I am entirely an outsider in this debate. And almost all the black persons I've known have been highly educated individuals. But I don't know if there is a huge emphasis on education in the majority of black communities in the US. Maybe there is and my perception is simply mistaken. But I think it is important to take into account the different backgrounds of the kids involved. Saying that more funding will fix everything is only partially true. Better teachers and facilities can only do so much when the kids themselves are not raised in optimal conditions.



Inner city black communities are still pretty 'segregated', aren't they?

Lokos

You are right about the upbringing part but by and large getting a good education is highly stressed.

White and black communities are pretty segregated.

[IraGlacialis]

How about this: don't segregate schools, but don't forcefully integrate schools either. I frankly don't see nothing wrong with de facto segregation if a black kid has full opportunity to go to a predominately white school. However, when people are forcefully shoved into other schools (sometimes quite a distance away) on the basis of race for the sake of "diversity", that is practically overt discrimination. What should be focused on is the bringing up of intercity schools and actually making the kids want to learn (possibly by phasing out the emphisis on "thuggin'" it (even if it takes a ton of elbow grease)).

[Kaplanr]

I am entirely an outsider in this debate. And almost all the black persons I've known have been highly educated individuals. But I don't know if there is a huge emphasis on education in the majority of black communities in the US. Maybe there is and my perception is simply mistaken. But I think it is important to take into account the different backgrounds of the kids involved. Saying that more funding will fix everything is only partially true. Better teachers and facilities can only do so much when the kids themselves are not raised in optimal conditions.

Inner city black communities are still pretty 'segregated', aren't they?

Lokos

Yes. There are cities that we can say are integrated, but in general, neighborhoods tend not to be. While the black neighborhoods pre-civil rights weren't affluent, they were largely self-sufficient, a mirror on a lower scale of the then typical white neighborhoods. What Wal-Mart has done to downtown and core shopping areas today, civil rights did to black commercial districts and black-owned businesses in the 60s.

I disagree with Red's direction; I hope his projection is more naive than racist, but his observations aren't wrong. There is a deep racial problem in the US, and part if it is a racist legacy that hasn't been sublimated, arrested or expunged, and part of it (and I don't know what the ratios are) is a community that hasn't been able to deal with a 400 year old legacy of slavery, and can't decide whether or not it's monolithic or homogenous, and doesn't always distinguwish between fair criticism and racism.

It's fine to say and believe that the society is a boot-strap society and that everyone has a fair chance if they apply themselves. The problem is, that hasn't been the case if you're not white, and even whites had periods where their boots didn't have the same straps as everyone elses.

[Firetxmi]

It's fine to say and believe that the society is a boot-strap society and that everyone has a fair chance if they apply themselves. The problem is, that hasn't been the case if you're not white, and even whites had periods where their boots didn't have the same straps as everyone elses.

Its like starting a game of monopoly for 100 yrs. giving every white person 100 dollars and every black person 50 dollars. Then for 65 yrs. giving them 100 dollars and saying, "why haven't you caught up yet?" They started 50 dollars behind for a damn long time, its going to take a while to catch up.

[0rphie]

What we need now is AGGRESSIVE redistribution of students in order to remove social and economic barriers by force. When it comes to educating their children, no parent is liberal enough to send their child to a lesser school in order to give a less fortunate student a chance at better education. But that is what needs to happen. Busing sucks for everybody, but it pays off.
This is a pure communism to take from those who have and give to those who do not. it did not work. period.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Lowest common denominator. Wow. What an idea.

[0rphie]

Its like starting a game of monopoly for 100 yrs. giving every white person 100 dollars and every black person 50 dollars. Then for 65 yrs. giving them 100 dollars and saying, "why haven't you caught up yet?" They started 50 dollars behind for a damn long time, its going to take a while to catch up.
If my parents were giving me $5 as pocket change and my neighbor's kid was only getting $1, there is no place for our government to step in and take $2 from me and give it to my neighbor to make us equal. It is not like the fed or state governments finance black and white schools differently. It is local taxes that finance the schools. If whites pay more in taxes they can spend more of those $$ for schools too.

[ElHombre]

In terms of the quality of education for a lot of black kids, things were better before forced integration. (Again that is just in terms of the quality)

No, it wasn't. 'Separate but equal' in theory rapidly turned into 'separate and unequal' in practice. Thus the Brown vs. Board case in the first place.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Its like starting a game of monopoly for 100 yrs. giving every white person 100 dollars and every black person 50 dollars. Then for 65 yrs. giving them 100 dollars and saying, "why haven't you caught up yet?" They started 50 dollars behind for a damn long time, its going to take a while to catch up.

It's not at all like that. I'm white and I grew up in inner city and neither me nor my family ever received any handouts from the guvment. Everything I ever owned or achieved I did it on my own.

How long does it take to catch up?

How many schools have to be ruined by the communist policies?