Dassault to Offer Rafale for India Fighter Deal

[santana]

Dassault to Offer Rafale for India Fighter Deal
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS

Dassault Aviation said Oct. 30 it would compete in India’s tender for 126 multirole combat aircraft, confirming a report in business daily La Tribune that French company would offer the Rafale fighter.
“We will respond to the request for proposals,” a Dassault spokesman said. The Rafale is the only combat aircraft in production at the company, which closed the line for the Mirage 2000 after delivering the last orders to Greece.
Dassault had hesitated before committing to the competition and sought guidance from the French government on the chances of success in India.
Dassault withdrew from an Indian competition for fighter training jets, which dragged on for some 20 years, over cost, said Dassault chief executive Charles Edelstenne. India awarded the trainer contract to BAE Systems’ Hawk.
India has invited Boeing and Lockheed Martin to bid in the tender. Russia offers the MiG 35, Sweden the Saab JAS-39 Gripen, and the four-country Eurofighter consortium has proposed the Typhoon.
The total contract is estimated at over $10 billion, half of which is expected to be r-invested locally in an industrial offset program required under the tender terms.

Full story
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3146134&C=europe (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3146134&C=europe)

[DanteXavier]

This would obviously be huge for Dassault. Sad to see that nobody has really taken up on the export offerings for the Rafale yet-it's a truly capable jet worthy of such orders. It's saddening to see how the efforts to push it have fumbled so far.

[Invisigoth]

Guess they'll need the right price and a big slap of political grease.. Be interesting to see who makes the race.

[I can't think of a name]

This would obviously be huge for Dassault. Sad to see that nobody has really taken up on the export offerings for the Rafale yet-it's a truly capable jet worthy of such orders. It's saddening to see how the efforts to push it have fumbled so far.

Maybe it is not that good for its price tag.

[Rictor]

Poor ol' Rafale ain't getting no play. They've been reduced to offering Gadaffi some. As for the India deal, my guess is that France doesn't stand a chance next to Russia, considering India's existing purchases.

[STIG]

Well the French just sold a bunch of radars and missiles to Pakistan. I guess they don't see Rafale winning the fighter deal after all.

[DanteXavier]

Maybe it is not that good for its price tag.

It might be a little expensive, but it's certainly a very capable aircraft-no doubt about it. It's definitely worthy enough to have been purchased by now. Something tells me, though, that the negotiating techniques the french have been using lately are really to blame.

[ocean]

Well the French just sold a bunch of radars and missiles to Pakistan. I guess they don't see Rafale winning the fighter deal after all.

take it also as a beit by India to separate France from Pakistan.

[santana]

What could be the propper answer from Pakistan about this deal

[jennery587]

guys come on come would you compere rafale vs su-30 in dogfight
INDIA IS NOT STUPID THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, IN MY VIEW I DONT THINK INDIA WILL CHOOSE RAFALE INSTEAD OF SUKHOI OR MIG-35

[Get_It]

guys come on come would you compere rafale vs su-30 in dogfight
INDIA IS NOT STUPID THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, IN MY VIEW I DONT THINK INDIA WILL CHOOSE RAFALE INSTEAD OF SUKHOI OR MIG-35

As someone stated earlier:

The IAF ACM is on record as having stated that the IAF would reduce fighter types to 3-4 by the end of 2020..the MKI on the heavy end, the MRCA on the medium end and the Tejas on the light end..the PAK-FA will follow on later. The Mirage-2000, MiG-29, Jaguar, MiG-27 and Bison are all due to retire by 2025 when the last of the Tejas and MRCA are delivered.

One of the biggest reasons why the IAF may not want the MiG-35 is that their entire fleet, apart from the Tejas, would then be Russian, and traditionally the IAF has sourced its fleet from different sources and not been completely Russian.

Best regards,

[futurepilot2004]

guys come on come would you compere rafale vs su-30 in dogfight
INDIA IS NOT STUPID THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, IN MY VIEW I DONT THINK INDIA WILL CHOOSE RAFALE INSTEAD OF SUKHOI OR MIG-35

In my view you should not CAPITALIZE every word, it doesnt make your point more valid, just harder to read.
Please explain why India would be stupid to choose the Rafale over the other jets you`ve mentioned(please include every aspect of them ie running costs, weapons, technology transfers ect ect).

[Martel]

guys come on come would you compere rafale vs su-30 in dogfight
INDIA IS NOT STUPID THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, IN MY VIEW I DONT THINK INDIA WILL CHOOSE RAFALE INSTEAD OF SUKHOI OR MIG-35
ANY PROBLEM WITH YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY ?

[Martel]

Well the French just sold a bunch of radars and missiles to Pakistan. I guess they don't see Rafale winning the fighter deal after all.
France as just sold Scorpene subs to India, and India is already using about 100 Mirage 2000.

[I can't think of a name]

Russia is laughing all the way to the bank with how they are hosing the Indians with the Brahmos deal. India is basically paying for the same missile twice and Russia got them to put money up for GLONASS to guide it.

[santana]

Same with the joke of a deal with sharing 50/50 on export sales with Indian and Russia together LOL. Russia just slapped India in the back and sold Indonesia $600 Million worth of Yahont missiles to arm the new Indonesian Kilos, and India didnt get anything at all in the deal or at least see half of the sales of the profit. :fork:

How many Su-30MK Indonesia has?

[jennery587]

Jenn is right, the Flankers is already considered better than the Rafale to begin with so why bother downgrading for other lame ducks. The Mig-35 will win here's why, full TOT and compatible with the Brahmos. The Indian Navy uses Fulcrums and are planning to buy up to 40 more to compliment the 16 they already have. It has AESA, TVC Engine, it cost twice as less and has proven itself in the IAF.

Keep in mind the Russians do have the Source Code to integrate the Brahmos weapon system on foreign platforms and will threaten India if they were to buy from Europe or America. What good comes in having a Rafale or Typhoon or better yet the Super Hornet if it can't even be allowed to use the Brahmos? rofl
Well thank you they dont get it how business working

[Shadowstorm]

How many Su-30MK Indonesia has?
I heard they got around 2-4 Su-30MKI (Indonesian variant) out of 10-12, because of 2004 tsunami killed that deal. But I heard they were planning to get the rest almost year ago, but I haven't heard anything about it though.

[santana]

Jenn is right, the Flankers is already considered better than the Rafale to begin with so why bother downgrading for other lame ducks. The Mig-35 will win here's why, full TOT and compatible with the Brahmos. The Indian Navy uses Fulcrums and are planning to buy up to 40 more to compliment the 16 they already have. It has AESA, TVC Engine, it cost twice as less and has proven itself in the IAF.

Keep in mind the Russians do have the Source Code to integrate the Brahmos weapon system on foreign platforms and will threaten India if they were to buy from Europe or America. What good comes in having a Rafale or Typhoon or better yet the Super Hornet if it can't even be allowed to use the Brahmos? rofl


The draw back I see is it's not proven and that's where if the French can swallow there pride they might get a split order out India. I'm a Fulcrum fan but the Fulcrums there showing on youtube and on the news is really a Mig-29M upgraded and the AESA radar isn't complete nor in production, I wish it were. The other down side to the Fulcrum either the M or 35 vaporware is Russia's own air force isn't buying it, sadly. Unless India buys the production lines and rights to produce the Mig-35 it might never become operational. The Rafale even in the M form is further along really because it's operational and flying combat sorties. It's still has short comings it's lacks a AESA radar and Mirage 2000s are still marketing it's targets for them, not good for sales I admit. A warning sign for me with the Fulcrum production is the fact that Algeria order placed only in 2006 calls for SMT and not M type Fulcrums by far the better version. Plus the K models 16 were being made for India at the time, sounds like a total custom order just so they buy the carrier. Not a true production model supported by operational production lines. Algeria would have bought the K or land base model M model if it was production ready? Sounds like it's still years away they could do it but Russia's air force isn't behind it.

India doesn't need a fighter that's better then a Su-30MKI Flanker, not many are I think a replacement for the aging Mig-21/Mig-27/Jaguar/Mig-29A and Mirage 2000 (remember early models) the Rafale could replace these aircraft and have lower operational cost then Russian twin engine fighter. India's Flankers are great fighters but are too costly to run for every type of mission for them thus the reason for there Mig-21/93 and Mirage 2000s (both single engine low operational cost fighters) types.

we have to admit that the Rafale vs. on paper what the Mig-35 is suppose to be fighter against fighter, the Mig-35 might come out on top. Maybe I'm wrong but to me the battle isn't Rafale vs Fulcrum, it's Rafale or Fulcrums vs the rest of India's aircraft needs. Any air to air threat against India will be dealt with Flankers in most cases so it needs to fill other profiles so it's not justs pure air to air. French aircraft using history as a way look at this aircraft tender shows a few facts: French aircraft cost more up front true but they have lower operational cost and have longer engine life, basically longer time between major overhauls. India also doesn't like having one aircraft supplier which is why I think the French, American, and other still have a outside chance.

Here we made very good points and agree 70 to 30 that India will go with the Mig-29M/K or Mig-35, in the end.
Price will shine through:
Rough price - Mig-35 with some Israeli/French components India will want it to similar to a mini MKI but Fulcrum not Flanker $50/55 million per range
Rough price - Rafale C/M/B with heavy shift to HAL Industries for production and promise of a AESA radar $70/80 million per range

With saving about $20 million per aircraft yes I can buy 2 maybe 3 spare engines but I can't buy up time and low operational cost. Using these prices which aren't in stone by any means if France came down $10 mil per aircraft I think India would take it, they like there Mirage 2000's.

[signatory]

Jenn is right, the Flankers is already considered better than the Rafale to begin with so why bother downgrading for other lame ducks. The Mig-35 will win here's why, full TOT and compatible with the Brahmos. The Indian Navy uses Fulcrums and are planning to buy up to 40 more to compliment the 16 they already have. It has AESA, TVC Engine, it cost twice as less and has proven itself in the IAF.



How would you know the Brahmos is available for the MIG-35 ? No study has been made. It fits on SU-30MKI that has been confirmed. A totally different jet.

The MIG-35 is a heavy twin-engine jet with a small fuel tank and a modest weapons payload. In fact it has the lightest payload of all aircraft in the tender including the single-engine jets. It has the shortest range. It does not have TVC, but yes it's a option. The airframe has a shorter life than the competition and even more so if the operater need to fly heavier stores.

Weapons integration and avionics is at best in prototype phase. The Russian airforce is also not likely to operate the jet. Why should India switch almost its entire airforce to a all-Russian fleet and most likely alone be the financial supporter for integration and future upgrade costs. They have already signalled their future source for a next gen jet in collaboration with Russia.

[santana]

How would you know the Brahmos is available for the MIG-35 ? No study has been made. It fits on SU-30MKI that has been confirmed. A totally different jet.

The MIG-35 is a heavy twin-engine jet with a small fuel tank and a modest weapons payload. In fact it has the lightest payload of all aircraft in the tender including the single-engine jets. It has the shortest range. It does not have TVC, but yes it's a option. The airframe has a shorter life than the competition and even more so if the operater need to fly heavier stores.

Weapons integration and avionics is at best in prototype phase. The Russian airforce is also not likely to operate the jet. Why should India switch almost its entire airforce to a all-Russian fleet and most likely alone be the financial supporter for integration and future upgrade costs. They have already signalled their future source for a next gen jet in collaboration with Russia.

I agree with this, good point to discus

[Atle]

I don't think the Russians are that stupid enough to design and develop their own weapon without testing it ahead of time to see if it is compatible with all of their own Aircrafts. Its like saying that the U.S. SLAM-ER Land attack Missile sold to South Korea to armed their F15K won't work with F16's nor F35, or yet the F-22 because no studies were done to prove so, which sounds really dumb when you think about it. I'm pretty sure they know lot more than we do on what works or not.


Have the russians claimed that Mig-35 will be capable of carrying or firing Brahmos? AFAIK even Su-30 has to be modified to be able to carry Brahmos. Do you know what kind of loads the individual hardpoints on Mig-35 will be able to take? I'm pretty sure Mig-29 don't have any hardpoints capable of carrying Brahmos.

[signatory]

Brahmos-AL is a 2500 kg, 8,4 m missile.

The heaviest weapon I've seen on a MIG-29M (MIG-35) wingstation is 1000 kg. Perhaps there's heavier somewhere but personally I have not seen it. So Brahmos.. hang it under a MIG-35 wing and listen to the crackling sound. Try to hang it centerline and notice the gear blocking the installation.

The Indian navy MIG-29s (which the MIG-29M is based off on) will fly the Kh-35 Uran @ 600 kg instead of the Brahmos for a reason.

MIG-35 is a marketing name for MIG-29M with a updated avionics suite and a optional conformal fuel tank. For a while the marketing name of the project was MIG-29MRCA.

The commonality with the existing MIG-29 is today an advantage, but these MRCA jets will be used in the 2013-2040 time period and for the most part of their life with little commonality with the remaining fleet. The old MIG-29s except for the handful navy jets will be removed from service some time in the 2020's, their airframe is already pretty old as we speak.

[Flyboy77]

delete post

[xav]

No, it is just a KLUB missile.


3M54E - 3M14E
Other Names:
3M14AE- air launch
Club-S
Klub
SS-N-27 Sizzler- NATO

The Klub is a family of modular, two-stage, multi-purpose missiles intended to engage ships, submarines and targets onshore. The Klub missiles can be launched from surface ships and submarines employing canisters, torpedo tubes and VLS. The missile can follow a ballistic or a cruise trajectory pattern depending on the Klub missile version. They have been designed to destroy targets protected by sophisticated active defenses and countermeasures.

Club-N designation applies to missile variants employed by surface vessels which launch this kind of weapon through Vertical Launch System (VLS). Club-N missiles are provided with Transport-Launch Containers (TLCs). Club-S refers to submarine applications which utilize torpedo tubes to fire the weapon out of the submarine.

The 3M-14E is a derivative of the Club-S family of missiles designed to attack targets onshore. Basically, it is a conventional cruise missile with an inertial guidance system launched from a submarine. The target coordinates must be known with great precision to take out the land target.


Cruise Speed 266 mps (Mach 0.80) -
Diameter 533 mm -
Length 6.2 m -
Max Range 300 km (162 nm) -
Max Weight 1,800 kg (3,968 lb) -
Top Speed 266 mps (Mach 0.80) -
Warhead 400 kg (882 lb) -

[Don_C]

What could be the propper answer from Pakistan about this deal

You mean what could be the proper answer from China. It looks like every Indian defence project/purchase at the moment or the last decade for that matter has been China-centric. But for Pakistan, the IAF edge is now so far it is almost impossible to catch up.

The PAF needs something to counter the Indian Flankers first. Maybe a heavily customised Rafale would do the job.

[M. chivers]

isnt pakistan gearing up with the J-10 and J-17?
along with their big amount of F15's and F16's

so in summary what did India bought this year? (military gear ofc)
and what did Pakistan buy?

[Shadowstorm]

Yep, Pakistan is getting around 150-200 JF-17s, 36 J-10s and over 50 F-16C/D Block 50/52s, but they are not getting F-15s.

[phoebus]

and over 50 F-16C/D Block 50/52s, but they are not getting F-15s.

I thought their Viper contract was for 18+18 brand-new 52+ and the rest were 2nd-hand MLU material. But then again I haven't read the news on that for over a year.

[ase290406]

Wow, if anyone will see Pakistani F-16's training against J-10's on Youtube, please embed it.

As to the Indian topic, I think they should keep the Su-30MKI, and have the Eurofighter/Rafale replace the others. The Suhoi as an air-to-air fighter and the European aircraft as multi-role. As to the Hornet side of the competition, if I were Indian I would wait for F-35's to deploy and then buy them allot cheaper. However I don't think India is going to wait for this.