Feeding problems with M1903-A4 sniper rifle?

[tafkaf]

OK, first I have to say that I know that Hollywood is typically a really bad source of information on military hardware. Anyhow, I have been thinking about this for so long that I just need to ask you experts about this one;

On this link to "Sniper Central" you see US WW2 sniper rifles:
http://www.snipercentral.com/m1903a4.htm

On these links you see two pictures of the sniper in "Saving Private Ryan"(dear lord, please forgive me for even mentioning that movie in this forum).
1.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/Movies/SavingPrivateRyan.jpg
2.
http://filmfreakcentral.net/dvdreviews/savingprivateryancap.jpg

In picture 1 he seems to have the M1903-A4 with the standard scope (the second rifle shown on the "sniper central" page)

In picture 2 he is in the church tower after change the scope of his rifle. It’s supposed to be the USMC scope on the third picture on the "Sniper central" page. Somehow it does not look quite right but that’s not the point.

The point of all this and my question is; all the time when he is firing ha has feeding problems. He is fiddling with the bolt, first to extract the spent case and then to chamber a new on. Was this a problem in real life with this rifle?

It is of cause always an issue when you fit a scope to a bolt action rifle that the bolt handle can come too close to the scope but the bolt handle is curved down to avoid this. And you would think that the US Army would make sure that the weapons systems they fielded were operational.

[Hollis]

OK, first I have to say that I know that Hollywood is typically a really bad source of information on military hardware.


In a Hollywood movie, any connection to reality is purely accidental.

[3Dguy]

It could be that in the movie the sniper is a left-handed shooter and reaches over the scope to operate the bolt with his left hand. Another possible explanation is that since it is a movie he is obviously using blank cartridges which are usually crimped and aren't as long as a cartridge with a bullet. This can cause feeding issuses because the point of the bullet helps guide the cartridge into the chamber.

[California Joe]

He's firing left handed and it's awkward. He's also supposed to be doing it very fast while under fire so some of that may have been added for drama.

The Army didn't use the Unertl target scope on their rifles, the Marines did and they were matched at Quantico and not taken off the rifle. The Marines didn't use the A4 either.

[StukaJr]

The point of all this and my question is;

Oh, there is a point... I was under the impression that it was just an incoherent rant, mixing fact and fiction... Oh, wait...



all the time when he is firing ha has feeding problems. He is fiddling with the bolt, first to extract the spent case and then to chamber a new on. Was this a problem in real life with this rifle?


None



It is of cause always an issue when you fit a scope to a bolt action rifle that the bolt handle can come too close to the scope but the bolt handle is curved down to avoid this.


Bolt handle clears the scope, now, doesn't it?



And you would think that the US Army would make sure that the weapons systems they fielded were operational.

What does US Army have to do with Hollywood movie set on location in Ireland and France, half a century after the weapon is taken out of active service? Not to mention, an actor that does not have sniper training nor hundreds of hours behind the weapon system?

[StukaJr]

He's firing left handed and it's awkward. He's also supposed to be doing it very fast while under fire so some of that may have been added for drama.


Not to hi-jack this excellent topic, but there are good uses for cycling the bolt with left hand - nothing to do with what applies to the movie or the Springfield 1903's...

Soviet infantrymen were taught to cycle the bolts of their Mosin rifles with the left hand, while shooting from standing position in the trench with the rifle supported on the trench's embrasure or dirt mound. I tried it at the range and it's a lot easier to shoot mosin from a sandbag that way - pulling up and twisting the straight bolt seems to cycle the action a lot smoother, than trying to do the same with the shooting hand...

That's been confirmed on surplusrifle website...

[California Joe]

I agree it would work better with a straight bolt Stuka. The curved bolt and a bigass target scope in the way would certainly make it a bit more difficult.

[StukaJr]

I agree it would work better with a straight bolt Stuka. The curved bolt and a bigass target scope in the way would certainly make it a bit more difficult.

Yeap - as Russians say, "Pulling teeth... through rectum... with a blowtorch"

[tafkaf]

This was purely a technical matter and I can do without any smart comments. If you don’t understand the question then don’t answer.

I worked a lot with Swedish made Mauser rifles. It always went very smoothly, blanks or live rounds. That’s why it looked odd how this was represented in the movie. So the idea occurred to me that this may be a known problem. But as somebody said, maybe this was just added for dramatic effect.
As for firing left handed using your left hand to work the bolt. Just trying it out here at home it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Admittedly the rifle I have a is a Swedish Mauser m/96 made by Husqvarna so it does have an exceptionally smooth action.

[BillySing]

Getting a 1903, or any Mauser based action to misfeed is like trying to get a cat to bark.

It's possible, but it does require alot of effort.

[James]

OK, first I have to say that I know that Hollywood is typically a really bad source of information on military hardware.

The point of all this and my question is; all the time when he is firing ha has feeding problems. He is fiddling with the bolt, first to extract the spent case and then to chamber a new on. Was this a problem in real life with this rifle?


This was purely a technical matter and I can do without any smart comments. If you don’t understand the question then don’t answer.

:cantbeli: You asked for it...

[tafkaf]

:cantbeli: You asked for it...
No, I did not ask for it. I simply asked if there was any historical truth behing the feeding problems seen in the movie. Now we have found out that the answer to my question was; No. So now this thred can be locked.

[Hollis]

Stuka, there has been a little discussion of a right hand shooter using a left hand bolt gun. The problem That I was told is uniformity and training issues. The advantage is not that great or felt to be enough to change. Similar to euro rifles, where the charging handle is operated by the left hand.

The idea is the shooter (right handed) can operate the bolt with the off hand, while maintaining the control of the firing mechanism. The off eye could also peripherally watch a single feed load.

Also back then, everyone was right handed. That just the way it was. Lefties had to learn that way.

Also my dad showed me who to operate a 03 in rapid fire, it was not as I expected. He would roll the rifle, instead of the bolt. I was taught to maintain "spot weld" which would negate that action. He was a excellent shot, so it worked for him.

It still boils back to training in my mind.

[California Joe]

No, I did not ask for it. I simply asked if there was any historical truth behing the feeding problems seen in the movie. Now we have found out that the answer to my question was; No. So now this thred can be locked.

You should probably just wind your neck in about now and change your tone.

[tafkaf]

You should probably just wind your neck in about now and change your tone.

lol. "...Wind your neck in..." :D Never heard that one before. No offence intended to anyone.

[StukaJr]

Stuka, there has been a little discussion of a right hand shooter using a left hand bolt gun. The problem That I was told is uniformity and training issues. The advantage is not that great or felt to be enough to change. Similar to euro rifles, where the charging handle is operated by the left hand.

The idea is the shooter (right handed) can operate the bolt with the off hand, while maintaining the control of the firing mechanism. The off eye could also peripherally watch a single feed load.



I was only speaking about shooting Mosin-Nagant from a standing in the trench position - apparently, it's easier to wretch open the bolt of the 91/30 after shooting few hundred steel cased rounds... I realize it's off-topic, but there are instances where a bolt gun is better to cycle with off-hand in a support position, in my case - a "sticky chamber".

Your shooting hand is closer to the action so it provides more counter-force. I find the need to hammer upward with palm of my shooting hand to undo the bolt and then again hammer down to close it... Pulling and closing the bolt with left hand is certainly more ergonomic, but not as ergonomic as doing things "righty"...

I did the chamber brush with sandpaper trick to clean and polish the chamber though.