CNN: Cops find themselves in arms race with criminals

[punchinout]

By Susan Candiotti
CNN

WEST PALM BEACH, Florida (CNN) -- The war on the streets is escalating. As gangs and other criminals pack more firepower, police departments say they find themselves in an arms race.
art.cop.cnn.jpg

Sgt. Laurie Pfeil practices shooting a semiautomatic weapon in Palm Beach County, Florida.
Click to view previous image
1 of 3
Click to view next image

The officers say they need to level the playing field to survive. And so, on a bright October day about a dozen Palm Beach County sheriff's deputies brought out their big guns at the local firing range.

Rifles crackled. Shell casings flew. Bullets sailed at 3,200 feet per second through paper targets set up a football field's length away.

The sharpshooters weren't training for a SWAT team. These were the deputies who patrol the streets and roads from the glittery Gold Coast to the swamps of the Everglades. Video Watch cops practice firing the big guns »

The fatal shooting in September of a Miami-Dade police officer by a man using an assault weapon put all South Florida police departments on edge. Several other officers were wounded by the gunfire.

"It's not nice we have to arm ourselves like the soldiers in Iraq," said Sgt. Laurie Pfeil, who supervises a sheriff's road patrol in Palm Beach County and is now certified to carry a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle on the job. It's the civilian version of the military's M-16 used by U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

"We are like soldiers. It is a war, " says Sgt Pfeil.

Across the country, at least 62 police officers have been gunned down this year -- a record pace, said Robert Tessaro, the associate director for law enforcement relations for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

As a result, the Brady organization supports police officers arming themselves with high-powered weapons "to protect themselves and their communities," he said.

"We're having more than one officer shot and killed a week. It's just outrageous that officers are being targeted," he said. "It's something I think all Americans should be outraged about."

He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004.

Designed to be fired from the hip, assault rifles such as the AK-47 can spray at a rate of up to 600 rounds a minute in full automatic mode. It is the weapon of choice for guerillas and gangsters.

Cops prefer to squeeze off single shots in semiautomatic mode because it makes for more accurate shooting. Some semiautomatic weapon's can fire with pinpoint accuracy from as far as 100 yards away. The magazines used by law enforcement typically carry 20 or 30 rounds, adding to the ability to better respond under fire.

There's no doubt that urban street warfare, aided by a proliferation of cheap automatic weapons, has come even to Palm Beach County, once high society's vacation mecca and a retirement destination for northern snowbirds.

Assault weapons have been used to kill eight people and wound 25 here over the last two years. Authorities estimate there are about 160 gangs who boast around 7000 members.

"They don't have .38s anymore. They have AK-47s. ...They have automatic weapons now," said Sgt. Pfeil.

So the Palm Beach Sheriff's office, like many others across the county, is training and arming everyone on the force with semiautomatic assault weapons. Many officers say it's about time.

"It's different now. It's shootings on a weekly basis. Ten years ago, that just didn't happen," said Pfeil. "They don't get out and run from us anymore. They stop, and they're shooting at us."

Miami's police department also is in the process of arming every officer with an assault rifle.

"It's a little bit embarrassing that we're engaged in this, but what is the alternative?" said Miami police Chief John Timoney. He said gangs, in particular, are getting their hands on high-powered weapons with apparent ease.

"The streets of South Florida are being flooded by AK-47s and assault weapons from old Soviet bloc countries. It's driven the price down, making the availability greater," said Chief Timoney.

The Miami police department evidence room has seized AK-47s, AR-15s and an assortment of other automatic and semiautomatic weapons piled on shelves from floor to ceiling.

Chief Timoney says he started noticing an increase since the federal assault weapon ban lapsed in 2004. Since then, he says homicides in the city of Miami involving assault weapons have been up -- 18 percent last year and 20 percent this year.

The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons, up from the year before. So far this year, 12 of 60 killings have involved the high-powered arms.

Tessaro said he recently attended a conference for the International Association of Chiefs of Police. Among the crime scene tape, squad cars, and other law enforcement gear offered for sale was the latest in high-powered assault weapons.

But it takes time and money to arm everyone. In the case of Palm Beach Sheriff's office, about one-third of its deputies carry assault weapons. It could take a year to get everyone equipped.

Some officers aren't waiting.
advertisement

Palm Beach Sheriff's deputy Carl Martin bought his own AR-15 and passed the required training.

When his department offered him one of their weapons, he gave it up to someone else who was
on the waiting list. "Because there's not enough to go around," he explained.

Story Highlights
* Cops train to match firepower of crooks toting automatic weapons
* About a third of Palm Beach County deputies carry semiautomatic weapons
* Deputies see automatic weapons in street "on a daily basis," sergeant says
* Police, gun control groups blame trend on 2004 end of assault weapons ban



oh CNN and the Brady people at it again. Seems like most officers i meet carry some form of "Patrol Carbine" in their vehicle. Doesn't seem like its nothing new. And it seems like criminals have always had access to weapons, ban or no ban.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/05/cops.guns/index.html

[Asheren]

Designed to be fired from the hip, assault rifles such as the AK-47 can spray at a rate of up to 600 rounds a minute in full automatic mode. It is the weapon of choice for guerillas and gangsters.

Hip firing AK in full auto good luck with hiting anything. 600 is a theoretical ROF realistic is around 100

[mohawkALSE]

"He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004."

"They don't have .38s anymore. They have AK-47s. ...They have automatic weapons now,"

Im sorry but thats complete BS to blame the expiration of the assault weapons ban on criminals having automatic weapons. They buy automatic weapons illegally, that has nothing to do with any laws. They break the laws to get the weapons. Even if there was a ban you think a criminal would carry a .38? Hell now they'd buy a semi automatic weapon illegally that was banned. They always use AK-47 so loosely too in the media. As soon as it mentioned "AK-47" people thing oh my god they have machine guns when usually its just a semi automatic Kalashnikov sporter. This sort of anti assault rifle BS pisses me off.

[Zoomie]

This article cracks me up. Give them AR-15s, and now they're instantly upgraded from cop to "sharpshooter". I'm sorry, but a new weapon does not enhance your skills.



Chief Timoney says he started noticing an increase since the federal assault weapon ban lapsed in 2004. Since then, he says homicides in the city of Miami involving assault weapons have been up -- 18 percent last year and 20 percent this year.
Like criminals have obeyed the law in the first place? The only reason why the numbers have been climbing so fast is because the Miami PD got caught cooking the numbers, and reporting crime at lower number than it really was.

[pgm]

oh CNN and the Brady people at it again. Seems like most officers i meet carry some form of "Patrol Carbine" in their vehicle. Doesn't seem like its nothing new. And it seems like criminals have always had access to weapons, ban or no ban.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/05/cops.guns/index.html

I do agree: they are the same people who blame weapons (i.e. inanimate objects) of every crime, and at the same time don't wont criminals, rapers and killers to be in prison or - better - on the gallows.

[JJC]

Like criminals have obeyed the law in the first place? The only reason why the numbers have been climbing so fast is because the Miami PD got caught cooking the numbers, and reporting crime at lower number than it really was.

Do they also use CompStat to cook their numbers like the NYPD? According to new stats we no longer have robberies or homicides; it's now petitte larcenies and suicides/accidental deaths.

[D-gin]

oh CNN and the Brady people at it again. Seems like most officers i meet carry some form of "Patrol Carbine" in their vehicle.

Here is the skinny on that.

Around here an officer (most, not all) can purchase an AR and Qualify with it and only after that he/she is allowed to have it with them on patrol, Keep in mind that some Departments supply there Officers/Deputy with issued AR's but most leave it up to the discretion of the individual Officer/Deputy.

For instance Coral Springs PD has issued one AR for each of the patrol cars they have where as BSO leave it up to the Deputy to purchase one in his own.

And I know that Miami Dade PD put in a very large order for new AR right after the recent shootings but I'm not very up to date with that PD's policy.

[punchinout]

From what i've heard from Officers 'round here, its the same way.

Whatever is on the allow list and you can qualify on is good to go.

Sold a few Bushmasters and DPMS rifles to some King County Sheriff guys.

Just seems like the media has gone on the offensive with these kind of stories lately.

[swamper]

This may have been posted before, but this clip seems so correct for this bit of news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6bbXgUNOws

[vinny_121_ND]

Swamper, I haven't laughed this hard in so long. Thanks for making my day.

[D-gin]

Sold a few Bushmasters and DPMS rifles to some King County Sheriff guys.
Thats mostly what the boys and girls use down here as well.

Just seems like the media has gone on the offensive with these kind of stories lately.Yes it does and I'll tell you if the government gets to pass another AWB I'm going straight to gun shop to pick up as many AR lowers and Hi-cap mags as I can get.

Not going to have them tell me I can't build an AR anytime soon.

[gaijinsamurai]

Agree with mohawkALSE. This "assault weapons' hysteria is pure bullsh*t. I work for a law enforcement agency in Portland, Oregon, where we have our share of gang issues, and not once, in my experience, have we encountered fully-automatic weapons in the possession of the gang-bangers or drug dealers. An occasional SKS or Ruger 10-22? yes, but usually it's cheap pistols.

[JJC]

Most depts are not capable of handling a single situation where a perp would show up with a fully automatic.

[AOCBravo2004]

My department currently only has 200 patrol rifles, and they are not distributed evenly. I work in the 'gang' area and we've had quite a few shootings the past couple of weeks. One argument led someone or several to spray and pray taking out 4 people. When I work we have 3 squads on during my shift patrolling our southside, total patrol rifles in those three squads??? ZERO!!! Right now we are pressing the Chief to allow us to qualify with our personal AR's and carry them.

I have mine ready, Bushmaster with VLTOR CASV-EL, EoTech, etc :)

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Boys...its an election year next year! Lets get the American public in a up roar, and lets blame assault rifles!!

Who cares that the ban did not work..who cares that political leaders are the ones wanting to pull your rights.....its all the gun's fault!

Please....stupid arse "Amerikan" politico defacto corruptus

[Hilbert]

Quality Journalism.

Bullsh*t, misleading information, and nonsense at every turn.

A joy to read.

[Douros81]

Quality Journalism.

Bullsh*t, misleading information, and nonsense at every turn.

A joy to read.

CNN
Clinton New Network, its going to be the 1990's all over again.

[Calanen]

Designed to be fired from the hip, assault rifles such as the AK-47 can spray at a rate of up to 600 rounds a minute in full automatic mode.


Hmm - usually works better when you fire them from the shoulder, but hey what's a little more hyperbole...

[gaijinsamurai]

....and, I'd like to see how many fully-auto AKs were actually encountered, instead of semi-auto sporters.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Yep, right with you 8th ID. I expect 2008 to be a banner year for over the top jingoism, shrill partisan spin, demagoguery and propaganda. This lame ass article is just one example of much more to come.
Blame the lifting of the assault rifle ban; that has got to be the lamest anti gun BS I’ve heard this week.

Is it just me or do other people get enraged every time the “disarm law abiding citizens” crowed refuses to take on the criminals. To me that reeks of societal manipulation, the allowing of more criminal gun activity to reinforce the spreading of FUD so that they can get the public to disarm. Or, is it simply institutionalized laziness on the politician’s part, the refusal to spend the effort to take the violent criminals down? What are these creeps thinking about, cost benefit analysis, i.e. money, is it about loosing a percentage of the gun criminal or the cowardly sheeple demographic, the insurance and medical industry payola, a combination?

See, this is why it enrages me. Some politician would rather ignore the real problem and instead choose the lazy, sure thing next term by allowing a constitutional right to be nibbled away than to actually lead sheeple and enforce a little social maturity. It’s worse than cowardly.

The answer is simple, hire some extra staff. Maybe deputize a few extra people. Go find the perp’s, arrest and process or burn the mo fo’s down while simultaneously entering there breeding grounds with a mission to set there neighborhood straight again. You treat the overly violent criminal element like an insurgency, deplete there numbers and repair possible future improper behavior of who remain. Yeh, I know. That would require a paradigm shift in political philosophy on a national level handling crime and poverty i.e. won’t happen in a million years.

This is only part of why I consider the gun control platform contemptible. There is going to be such a civil war…

[cover2]

"He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004."

"They don't have .38s anymore. They have AK-47s. ...They have automatic weapons now,"

Im sorry but thats complete BS to blame the expiration of the assault weapons ban on criminals having automatic weapons. They buy automatic weapons illegally, that has nothing to do with any laws. They break the laws to get the weapons. Even if there was a ban you think a criminal would carry a .38? Hell now they'd buy a semi automatic weapon illegally that was banned. They always use AK-47 so loosely too in the media. As soon as it mentioned "AK-47" people thing oh my god they have machine guns when usually its just a semi automatic Kalashnikov sporter. This sort of anti assault rifle BS pisses me off.

Oh really, they buy them illegally? Where? How? Think about that. It has EVERYTHING to do with the laws. If the weapons were not sold to ANYONE, criminals would not have them. Period.

I'm a gun owner and am happy that I can buy an AR or AK, but if I can, then others can. And certain unscrupulous people can then sell them to criminals. It's not like joe blo gang banger is meeting some ship at sea that's importing illegal guns! Nope. They send friends or the like w/o criminal records to buy them, and then the criminals themselves use them. or, occasionally, as happened in my city, a certified gun dealer sells guns literally out the back door (he got caught). In either case, if these weapons were not allowed to be sold, fewer would be in the hands of criminals, and it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

Here in MD, where I live, the so-called assault weapons are purchased under all the same laws as a handgun, i.e. w/criminal background check, 7 day waiting period, etc. I think that's the way to go. That'll allow law-abiding citizens to buy them if they want, but keep them out of the hands of criminals (for the most part, stolen ones or unscrupulous people aside).

Personally, what I'd like to see are a nationalization of gun laws, so that if I have a carry permit in MD, I can carry nationwide, like a driver's license. And same for the waiting period on "assault weapons". No doubt all of the States' rights advocates on here will flame me, but so be it. I think it would be nice for me to be able to drive to see my parents, friends, uncles, etc., in other states, and not have to worry about how my guns are carried/stored, etc., as I drive from state to state. My $.02

[Vettec]

I say good for them, how many videos have we seen with Cops trying to battle it our with criminals carrying full autos. This should level the field a bit.

[gaijinsamurai]

How many videos have I seen with cops in shootouts with fully-auto armed criminals?

ZERO.

[American Patriot]

North Hollywood BofA, thats the only one I can think of

[Asheren]

cover2 I live in country where you can't buy them this way. You can consider yourself "lucky" if you are allowed to own a gun. Sportsmen and hunters are a bit diffrent issue. Criminals here buy their shoties on black market or make homemade stuff. Actualy its more difficult to get ammo than illegal gun. If you are law enforcment,army,security guy that carries a gun on duty you have to be constantly aware that someone might try to steal it from you. Its another nail in the coffin of gun working fear amongst security workers but thats another story.

[cover2]

cover2 I live in country where you can't buy them this way. You can consider yourself "lucky" if you are allowed to own a gun. Sportsmen and hunters are a bit diffrent issue. Criminals here buy their shoties on black market or make homemade stuff. Actualy its more difficult to get ammo than illegal gun. If you are law enforcment,army,security guy that carries a gun on duty you have to be constantly aware that someone might try to steal it from you. Its another nail in the coffin of gun working fear amongst security workers but thats another story.


Asheren,

Interesting. And are assault weapons a big issue in your country? My guess would be no. But I'm eager to find out.

[sct1886]

Besides the Hollywood shootout. One of the few crimes committed with a full auto was a cop killing his wife with a department issued sub gun. BS Communist News Network garbage.

[Zoomie]

I say good for them, how many videos have we seen with Cops trying to battle it our with criminals carrying full autos. This should level the field a bit.

Got links? Got dates? Got proof?

[Asheren]

Asheren,

Interesting. And are assault weapons a big issue in your country? My guess would be no. But I'm eager to find out.

Well they don't show up here to offen cops confiscate around 200(submachine guns and assaultrifles) automatic weapons per year. Submachineguns are much more common than assualtrifles. Around 200-600+ short firearms. Total amount is around 1300-3000 per year with other weapons(not qualifing as a rifle etc.) being around half of confiscated amount. Those are most offen firearms from various kinds of private arsenals. Last two years were lowest in 10 years but i would teake this last two years stats with a big grain of salt. Amount of stolen firearms is around 500 per year. Amount of confiscated ammo is around 100 thousants rounds per year. Amount of registered "combat" firearms is 2006 26.012 pieces for 21.044 permits this stat as far as i know includes security, shoting ranges etc. Compare that to hunting weapons perimts 238.136 pieces 118.669 perimits.

Now other side of the coin is that when you see a criminal carring automatic weapon here you shoud assume that he will not hesitate to use it or is planing to use it. From my personal experience i would say that they could duble amount of confiscated small firearms just doing random search of peoples in certain parts of the cities after nightfall. Most propably that would be just averange peoples that don't feel safe and would get a normal gun permit in USA. Propably searching a random large nightclub and cars around it during weekend party would give you at last one or two small arms pieces.

[Hunterhr]

Bullet spraying, hip firing, full automatic AK-47's are so passe.

.50 caliber terrorist wielded airline killing, nuclear reactor breachers, that's where the big money is these days in journalism.

[Geezah]

Oh really, they buy them illegally? Where? How? Think about that. It has EVERYTHING to do with the laws. If the weapons were not sold to ANYONE, criminals would not have them. Period.

BS, it's all about supply and demand, firearms on all levels are heavily restricted or banned in the UK, yet they have a problem with firearm crime.....so how does that work?



I'm a gun owner and am happy that I can buy an AR or AK, but if I can, then others can.

Sure if you're able to pass the instant background check, how many crims are actually buying their firearms from legit firearm stores?




And certain unscrupulous people can then sell them to criminals. It's not like joe blo gang banger is meeting some ship at sea that's importing illegal guns! Nope. They send friends or the like w/o criminal records to buy them, and then the criminals themselves use them. or, occasionally, as happened in my city, a certified gun dealer sells guns literally out the back door (he got caught). In either case, if these weapons were not allowed to be sold, fewer would be in the hands of criminals, and it's ridiculous to say otherwise.

Strawman purchase, which in itself if illegal, so no matter what people will break the law to get them, even if they are available to the law abiding public.



Here in MD, where I live, the so-called assault weapons are purchased under all the same laws as a handgun, i.e. w/criminal background check, 7 day waiting period, etc. I think that's the way to go. That'll allow law-abiding citizens to buy them if they want, but keep them out of the hands of criminals (for the most part, stolen ones or unscrupulous people aside).

Personally, what I'd like to see are a nationalization of gun laws, so that if I have a carry permit in MD, I can carry nationwide, like a driver's license. And same for the waiting period on "assault weapons". No doubt all of the States' rights advocates on here will flame me, but so be it. I think it would be nice for me to be able to drive to see my parents, friends, uncles, etc., in other states, and not have to worry about how my guns are carried/stored, etc., as I drive from state to state. My $.02

Please, as a firearm owner you already buy into the Brady BS. ASSault Weapon is a made up word, it covers any firearm that the anti-gunites dislike, for the most part because of looks.

Don't you mean semi-automatic rifle, after all that's what they are, the way they look doens't make them any deadlier, just cooler.

As far as a nationalization of firearm laws, screw that, I like them just the way they are. Why should I have to wait 7 days to purchase a firearm, when I already own them, defies logic. What's the point behind it?

As far as crims getting firearms and the Police playing catch up, well it's like history repeating itself, after all the Police had to do it in the 1920s.

[joe mama]

When someone can show me that a significant number of crimes are being committed with "assault weapons" that were banned from being made during the ban and were made AFTER the ban expired, I'll begin to give any weight to the "the streets will run red with blood if the ban expires!" "the streets are running red with blood because the ban expired!" hysteria. Because if a crime is committed with an "assault weapon" that was made before the ban, THEN IT WAS COMMITTED WITH A GUN THAT WAS NEVER BANNED.

And on this note, Geezah you oughta love this, last week I picked up a TEC-9. w00t! It's deliciously eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil. I fondle it often and touch myself inappropriately whilst said fondling is happening.

[cover2]

BS, it's all about supply and demand, firearms on all levels are heavily restricted or banned in the UK, yet they have a problem with firearm crime.....so how does that work?



Sure if you're able to pass the instant background check, how many crims are actually buying their firearms from legit firearm stores?




Strawman purchase, which in itself if illegal, so no matter what people will break the law to get them, even if they are available to the law abiding public.



Please, as a firearm owner you already buy into the Brady BS. ASSault Weapon is a made up word, it covers any firearm that the anti-gunites dislike, for the most part because of looks.

Don't you mean semi-automatic rifle, after all that's what they are, the way they look doens't make them any deadlier, just cooler.

As far as a nationalization of firearm laws, screw that, I like them just the way they are. Why should I have to wait 7 days to purchase a firearm, when I already own them, defies logic. What's the point behind it?

As far as crims getting firearms and the Police playing catch up, well it's like history repeating itself, after all the Police had to do it in the 1920s.


Geezah,

You obviously understood my argument, yet made house of straw type counter arguments. Let me give a hypothetical example of what I mean, and perhaps you and others here can understand.

Let us say I start my own country. It's in the middle of nowhere (Antarctica?). In this country, no one can own guns of any kind. No hunting rifles, no shotguns, no so-called assault weapons, handguns, etc. No firearms are manufactured here and exported either.

Ok, so would we expect many crimes to be committed by firearm-wielding criminals? I'd say no.

See my point? If there were no guns, there'd be no gun crime. I'm not saying people wouldn't be killed by other means, just not by guns. B/c the only place they could come from would be smuggled in, and that number should be relatively small.

Now, look at the USA. Gun crime is pretty rampant, and why? Because guns are readily available. For all the gun "nuts" citing reports from Australia, Britain, etc, their numbers on gun crimes are dwarfed by those here in the USA.

Straw man purchases are indeed illegal. But they are so easy. I bought a handgun last week, and how was any authority to know whether or not I sold it a week later to some gang member? They don't, unless it turns up at some crime scene. THAT'S how must crooks get their guns....straw man purchases or stolen from legit owners.

Now, having given my hypothetical, it's not realistic, I realize, b/c there are already SO many guns. Thus, I believe that people do have the right to own guns, and I see no problem with a waiting period, whether or not I already own guns. If I'm so desperate to have a gun RIGHT NOW, that's probably all the more reason why I should have to wait. I'd just like to see the individual states not have all of their own rules about them, and treat gun ownership like drivers licenses, so that individual states can do the registering and collect those fees, but there should be reciprocity from state to state. This would eliminate many of the loopholes that criminals can otherwise exploit.

I'm a gun owner, but will never be an NRA member, b/c they are as insane as the others who want to take away all guns (and think that such a thing is really possible).

[Mastermind]

One of the most deadly murderers in Calif...some years ago...used a shotgun. A great percentage of cops are killed and injured by knives (all classifications of police)...in my police training, the edged weapons were considered the most likely to take a cop's life. The North Hollywood shootout the perps used fully automatic AK-47s and yet did not kill any police officers (not for the lack of trying, however). The police who are actually killed by "assault weapons" like semi auto SKS and AK-47's are killed in the initial contact by ambush (meaning they would have been killed by any kind of equvalent powered fire arm at such close range)...Several Alaskan and New Mexican (south western) officers are primarily killed by hunting rifles (bolt action and lever action), shotguns and pistols....assault weapons account for very few assaults on cops. Few police are killed by gangs (gangs do not need the heat...they have their weapons mainly as a show of force for intimidation of other gangs)...most officers who are killed by gun fire are killed during domestic disputes or individual attackers not affiliated with any gangs at all.

I did a detailed research on this subject just last year and can not cite my sources (I'm at work and using my fallible powers of recall)..but they were all internet sources...FBI reports and statistics, newspaper, internet posted white papers of university research, and state police records...in addition to my personal training and experience. Most is just a repeat of verifiable documents that are readily available from NRA sites.

[Geezah]

Geezah,

You obviously understood my argument, yet made house of straw type counter arguments. Let me give a hypothetical example of what I mean, and perhaps you and others here can understand.

Argument, I saw no argument, just more of the emotional rantings of an anti-gunite.


Let us say I start my own country. It's in the middle of nowhere (Antarctica?). In this country, no one can own guns of any kind. No hunting rifles, no shotguns, no so-called assault weapons, handguns, etc. No firearms are manufactured here and exported either.

Ok, so would we expect many crimes to be committed by firearm-wielding criminals? I'd say no.

You completely ignored my post.
Firearms that are not manufactured in the UK are making their way into the country, again it’s supply and demand, there are those that want them and there are those that are willing to supply them.


See my point? If there were no guns, there'd be no gun crime. I'm not saying people wouldn't be killed by other means, just not by guns. B/c the only place they could come from would be smuggled in, and that number should be relatively small.
If the point you are trying to make is the fact that if firearms had never been invented there would not be any type of firearm crime, if not, no. I have no idea because you can’t blame an inanimate object for the selfish actions of a few. It’s all about intent!


Now, look at the USA. Gun crime is pretty rampant, and why? Because guns are readily available. For all the gun "nuts" citing reports from Australia, Britain, etc, their numbers on gun crimes are dwarfed by those here in the USA.

2.5 million defensive uses of firearms a year, 80million law abiding firearm owners in the US, and 260 million firearms legally owned.
If you look at the percentages and take into account you do not have the freedoms in those countries that we have here, I would say we’re not doing too bad!


Straw man purchases are indeed illegal. But they are so easy. I bought a handgun last week, and how was any authority to know whether or not I sold it a week later to some gang member? They don't, unless it turns up at some crime scene. THAT'S how must crooks get their guns....straw man purchases or stolen from legit owners.
And you know those firearms can be traced back to the stores that sold them and to the person that purchased it. On to you second point you want to take firearms away because someone may steal it, theft happens everyday, again it’s about intent, maybe I should give up driving after all someone could steal my car.


Now, having given my hypothetical, it's not realistic, I realize, b/c there are already SO many guns. Thus, I believe that people do have the right to own guns, and I see no problem with a waiting period, whether or not I already own guns. If I'm so desperate to have a gun RIGHT NOW, that's probably all the more reason why I should have to wait. I'd just like to see the individual states not have all of their own rules about them, and treat gun ownership like drivers licenses, so that individual states can do the registering and collect those fees, but there should be reciprocity from state to state. This would eliminate many of the loopholes that criminals can otherwise exploit.

Mate, the Right to own firearms is a Righ,t not a privilege, so don’t even go there with that anti-gunite BS.


I'm a gun owner, but will never be an NRA member, b/c they are as insane as the others who want to take away all guns (and think that such a thing is really possible).

I call BS on that, and given the way you think I’m glad you’re not a member of the 4million strong NRA.

[California Joe]

Chief Timoney is an ill informed political gasbag with an agenda.

[TJCNI]

I live in northern ireland where the gun laws are even stricter than the mainland uk, a simple spring power airsoft gun is banned so funny enough semi-autos etc are a massive no-no yet somehow the groups still manage to get massive amounts of weapons including .50 heavy machine guns and sniper rifles.
Someone said here that the gun crime numbers in the uk are dwarfed by those in the usa id say the massive population difference is something to do with that.
If there is a want for guns then groups will get them no matter what the law is simple as.

[tipsovr]

Geezah,

You obviously understood my argument, yet made house of straw type counter arguments. Let me give a hypothetical example of what I mean, and perhaps you and others here can understand.

Let us say I start my own country. It's in the middle of nowhere (Antarctica?). In this country, no one can own guns of any kind. No hunting rifles, no shotguns, no so-called assault weapons, handguns, etc. No firearms are manufactured here and exported either.

Ok, so would we expect many crimes to be committed by firearm-wielding criminals? I'd say no.

See my point? If there were no guns, there'd be no gun crime. I'm not saying people wouldn't be killed by other means, just not by guns. B/c the only place they could come from would be smuggled in, and that number should be relatively small.

Now, look at the USA. Gun crime is pretty rampant, and why? Because guns are readily available. For all the gun "nuts" citing reports from Australia, Britain, etc, their numbers on gun crimes are dwarfed by those here in the USA.

Straw man purchases are indeed illegal. But they are so easy. I bought a handgun last week, and how was any authority to know whether or not I sold it a week later to some gang member? They don't, unless it turns up at some crime scene. THAT'S how must crooks get their guns....straw man purchases or stolen from legit owners.

Now, having given my hypothetical, it's not realistic, I realize, b/c there are already SO many guns. Thus, I believe that people do have the right to own guns, and I see no problem with a waiting period, whether or not I already own guns. If I'm so desperate to have a gun RIGHT NOW, that's probably all the more reason why I should have to wait. I'd just like to see the individual states not have all of their own rules about them, and treat gun ownership like drivers licenses, so that individual states can do the registering and collect those fees, but there should be reciprocity from state to state. This would eliminate many of the loopholes that criminals can otherwise exploit.

I'm a gun owner, but will never be an NRA member, b/c they are as insane as the others who want to take away all guns (and think that such a thing is really possible).

Well, following your logic, I guess there are no illegal drugs to be had on the streets of the U.S.??? B/C heroin, cocaine, meth, marijuana, etc. are all illegal and can't be purchased by law abiding individuals, but they are still very prevelant, no? Lets outlaw and ban ice cream and see how long it takes for a black market for ice cream to pop up.

Banning guns by law is going to work as well as banning alcohol during Prohibition. Just another left sided knee jerk, panic laden method to try to remove law abiding folks constitutional rights....................

[Shellshock1918]

"He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004."

"They don't have .38s anymore. They have AK-47s. ...They have automatic weapons now,"

Im sorry but thats complete BS to blame the expiration of the assault weapons ban on criminals having automatic weapons. They buy automatic weapons illegally, that has nothing to do with any laws. They break the laws to get the weapons. Even if there was a ban you think a criminal would carry a .38? Hell now they'd buy a semi automatic weapon illegally that was banned. They always use AK-47 so loosely too in the media. As soon as it mentioned "AK-47" people thing oh my god they have machine guns when usually its just a semi automatic Kalashnikov sporter. This sort of anti assault rifle BS pisses me off.
Well said.

The criminals they fight are using ILLEGAL weapons themselves.

[Pralix]

Wasn't there a sheriff in florida that was on the news demonstrating a fully automatic weapon and passing it off as a weapon banned by the 1994 AWB? He did this right before the AWB was set to expire.

[cbreedon]

from the original article "He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004.

Designed to be fired from the hip, assault rifles such as the AK-47 can spray at a rate of up to 600 rounds a minute in full automatic mode. It is the weapon of choice for guerillas and gangsters."

A. The 'Assault Weapon Ban' that expired in 2004 had nothing to do with 'automatic' weapons.
B. Ask Mr Kalashnikov and my guess would be that AK47 was not designed to be fired from the hip.
C. 600 rounds in a minute is 20 magazines... Quite a feat. :-)

[Laconian]

Its a crap article. The City of Miami Chief Timoney like most politically appointed and motivated chiefs has political agenda. Expect more of this anti-gun crap all during the election period. The same thing happened last election. Its a hot button argument that anti-gunners cling to.

[Asheren]

from the original article "He lays the blame squarely on lawmakers who allowed the assault weapons ban to expire in 2004.

Designed to be fired from the hip, assault rifles such as the AK-47 can spray at a rate of up to 600 rounds a minute in full automatic mode. It is the weapon of choice for guerillas and gangsters."

A. The 'Assault Weapon Ban' that expired in 2004 had nothing to do with 'automatic' weapons.
B. Ask Mr Kalashnikov and my guess would be that AK47 was not designed to be fired from the hip.
C. 600 rounds in a minute is 20 magazines... Quite a feat. :-)

Well you can fire them from a hip but like i said accuracu would be s..ty. During my army times i did that only once during infantry assault exercise(firing blanks) and it was more to keep those guys on other side keeping their heads down than to hit anything.

[PsychoMantis]

If you guys remember the late 1970s-Early 1980s,Miami-Dade land county has always had a violent history due to the drug trade and the huge influx of Cuban immigrants. Infact,those years the city had the highest death rate in America making it more dangerous than Detroit,LA,New York,or Houston.

[Douros81]

I'm a gun owner, but will never be an NRA member, b/c they are as insane as the others who want to take away all guns (and think that such a thing is really possible).



Your just a D-Bag! I wouldn't want a person like you in the NRA. Cause you don't know **** from apple butter!

NRA for Life!

Μολὼν Λαβέ

[gaijinsamurai]

X2. Well said, Douros.

[lider_r]

has everyone forgotten that there was a plot a while back against a certain US army base, planned by a certain group of retards, videoing themselves using assault weapons?

How is a discussion about assault weapons in the public domain not relevant after something like this?

[Douros81]

X2. Well said, Douros.

This year the NRA work hard to get a bills to become law here in Missouri, the Castle Doctrine and protecting hunting areas from commercial development. They do a lot more then just protecting are 2nd Amend rights.
Every one who real cares about hunting and firearms rights should be a member of the NRA. :)

And if you don't understand what the NRA does for you, you should not own firearms.

[Hunterhr]

has everyone forgotten that there was a plot a while back against a certain US army base, planned by a certain group of retards, videoing themselves using assault weapons?

How is a discussion about assault weapons in the public domain not relevant after something like this?

They were in the process of trying to get the weapons. They never actually bought them. And in fact, the weapons they were trying to buy were already restricted for them to own. But hey, you've never left facts get in your way before, why start now?

[lider_r]

wrong. they filmed themselves already using assault weapons- sks and beretta storm (http://www.vpc.org/press/0705fortdix.htm)




And if you don't understand what the NRA does for you, you should not own firearms.Yeah, they've only got their members interests at heart.... :roll:

They are just a lobby group for another lobby group.

[Hunterhr]

wrong. they filmed themselves already using assault weapons- sks and beretta storm (http://www.vpc.org/press/0705fortdix.htm)

Oh hey, a link from the VPC, how completely unsurprising.

Neither of those weapons would in any way, shape or form be affected by the AWB. And IIRC, they rented them from a range.

[lider_r]

And IIRC, they rented them from a range.

In January 2006, Abdullahu provided a Beretta pistol and the Yugoslavian semiautomatic rifle to the Dukas for their use at a firing range in Gouldsboro, he admitted. During the week of Jan. 3, 2006, while in Gouldsboro, Tartar provided the Dukas and others with his Beretta CX4 Storm 9-millimeter- caliber rifle and a newly purchased Mossberg 12-gauge shotgun for use at a firing range, Abdullahu admitted.

Abdullahu also admitted that he purchased approximately 2,500 rounds of ammunition to be used by the Dukas and others. In early February 2007, after having used the four firearms at the firing range in Gouldsboro, the Dukas returned the firearms to Abdullahu, he admitted. Abdullahu kept those firearms at his residence in Atlantic County until they were seized by federal agents.

source (http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/29057.html)

[Hunterhr]

I stand corrected. I still don't see what your getting at. In attempting to buy AK-47's and M16's, they met with an FBI agent.

What does any of this have to do with the sunset of the AWB?

[Douros81]

wrong. they filmed themselves already using assault weapons- sks and beretta storm (http://www.vpc.org/press/0705fortdix.htm)


Yeah, they've only got their members interests at heart.... :roll:

They are just a lobby group for another lobby group.


Why wouldn't they, thats why people become members of the NRA. They work for my right to keep and bear arms D-bag! :roll:


One more thing to all you anti-gun people, do you know what makes a weapon an assault weapons ? As was stated by the Clinton gun ban.

[lider_r]

Why wouldn't they, thats why people become members of the NRA. They work for my right to keep and bear arms


if you're naive enough to believe that then you'll probably believe anything....

[wayneard3413]

Just browsing through this thread and getting a kick out of how people believe someone willing to commit a terrorist attack would scrap the whole idea because of stricter gun law... The only people hands that these laws keep guns out of is law abiding citizens... Or we could just ban them and get rid of all the gun related violence, like in NYC

[LaoSexMachine]

if you're naive enough to believe that then you'll probably believe anything....

Same goes to you. I own AKs, AR, and many other guns but I have no tendencies to go and commit crimes with them.

[gaijinsamurai]

lider_r, do you even KNOW what an "assault rifle" is?

(hint: if you are getting your info from the Violence Policy Center, you need to do more reading, to avoid making an ass of yourself on this forum!)

[lider_r]

who said assault rifle? I said assault weapon, as per the FBI statement (http://newark.fbi.gov/dojpressrel/2007/nk050807.htm).


But thanks for letting me know that i might be in danger of losing your respect :roll:

[gaijinsamurai]

You wrote they had an SKS and Beretta Storm, which you claimed to be "assault weapons". Nowhere in your link, does the FBI define an SKS as an assualt weapon. You are going to have to try harder, cupcake.

And why do you think you ever had my respect to begin with? You obviously don't know sh*t about this subject.

[lider_r]

You wrote they had an SKS and Beretta Storm, which you claimed to be "assault weapons". Nowhere in your link, does the FBI define an SKS as an assualt weapon. You are going to have to try harder, cupcake.

And why do you think you ever had my respect to begin with? You obviously don't know sh*t about this subject.

"The investigation began on Jan. 31, 2006, after the FBI received a video recording showing the six individuals charged in the complaint and four other men firing assault weapons in militia-like style at a Poconos shooting range. The recording depicted them calling for holy war (jihad) and shouting "God is great" in Arabic."


I'll have to decline your invitation to continue down this path of absolute nerdism. Next you'll be telling me that technically the pentium 4 wasn't actually a pentium because it had the overhead flux modulator chip onboard.

[Beowulf]

pointless discussion and flaming. Go back to one of the many many gun control threads in this forum.