German scientists "shocked" by student poll

[fish&chips]

And in contrast to the latest German child prodigy, here's some gross news about the perception of the former German Democratic Repulic among pupils in Berlin:

Link in German
http://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/skurriles-ddr-bild_aid_138713.html

To sum it up, the GDR was not a dictatorship but a social paradise with Helmut Kohl being one of its most prominent politicians. The Stasi (notorious GDR spy service) was an agency like any other and the Allies built the Berlin Wall. It seems that the school children of Berlin know little about their past.

18 years after the fall of the wall, researchers were not only surprised but shocked to learn the results of a poll among youths in Germany's capital. Because the kids were not joking at all, the were serious about their answers, simply not knowing it better. Apparently neither parents nor teachers are able to provide the children with a solid basic knowledge about the recent German past, says Klaus Schroeder of the Free University of Berlin.

Schroeder and his team were expecting a different attitude of the 2400 high school students aged 15-17 whom they polled. "It [the result] almost knocked me over!"

It may be a small comfort for the researchers that many of the gross answer were based on utter ignorance rather than on belief. However, a quarter of the students stated that the GDR had not been a dictatorship but that the people there simply had had to adapt themselves, like anywhere in the world. Another quarter would rather waive their rights freedom if the state in turn took better care of its citizens. As expected, the approval of such statements was higher in east Berlin than in the west, but also in the west many youths agreed with them. As a foundation for their oppinion, the students quoted recent films like "Sonnenallee" and "Goodbye Lenin". And at the school "the topic had not yet been dealt with."

The image of the GDR in the minds of many young Berliners is described as a bizarre slapstick comedy by Schroeder. "It is the image of a poorly, odd and funny country, which somehow was very social though." His conclusion is that he is facing not only an ignorant but a unpolitical and naive generation - at least concerning the latest German history.

Almost shocked, the scientist noted a certain "lack of history". Has saw a glimpse of school classes who have no relation to their own history and who neither know nor feel the value of a free democratic society. "But in the GDR they also had elections, that's somehow democratic too," a student was trumping up.

What Schroeder and his team found instead was a strong orientation towards consumption. Many students blamed the lack of possibilities for shopping and travel in the former GDR. As and advantage of the SED-ruled state, they quoted the guarantee of employment and public child care. The qualities of these achievements, however, were not questioned, says Schroeder. Rather he got the impression that the praising of the "social" GDR was related to the own private future angst of the poll's participants. "Many like it comfy. They want a good job and wealth. But served on a silver platter, please. They don't really want to make any effort for it."

I might have been comforting for the scientists to know that most of the students were however hailing the German re-unification and that the majority was backing the system that is the Federal Republic of Germany.

________________

Here's Germany 2020 for you :cantbeli:

[muck]

Hopefully this won't be regarded as racism, but as a matter of fact, more than 62 percent of all pupils in Berlin are immigrants. They don't know anything about Germany's contemporary history and are not even interested in learning it. Ask a Turk on open street what the name of our president is, in the best case he will laugh at you.

[Molli]

History - in this country, at least - has fallen into that horrible form of teaching where pupils are taught to pass their exams only. Rather than learning how and why events happened, pupils are just taught to put together an essay, and exam questions revolve around the phrase 'Using the sources...'.

Thankfully, I think my school year was one of the last to be taught the 'proper' way. Hands-on, teachers who made things exciting! Trips to Avebury, Roman re-enactors visiting...

*Waves grade As in the air*

[toki]

Hopefully this won't be regarded as racism, but as a matter of fact, more than 62 percent of all pupils in Berlin are immigrants. They don't know anything about Germany's contemporary history and are not even interested in learning it. Ask a Turk on open street what the name of our president is, in the best case he will laugh at you.

But not in east Berlin! And i assume they polled 2 equal pools.

I'm pretty sure 15 year old "German" Germans are not doing alot better.
List of priorities:

1-Blaring crappy music on the Cellphone
2-Weed/Alcohol
3-how to get punani (fail/boast A: "Alta, isch hab die gefickt, ey oooohne Scheiß!" B: Ey Laaaber"))
4-"I gave him a headbutt and then *poaaaah*... here, check on my phone!"
5-Weed
6-Alcohol
7-50 cent
8-Rihanna -eh eh eh eh
....

12000- School
13458- Modern German History ("wtf happened 4 years before i was born? isch weiß nisch ey")

[muck]

:-( True, true.

[Asheren]

Same as everywhere.
Well i got 4 shoud get 3 but got more for just pretending to listen what teacher was saying. With exception of after WW2 and after period cos that guy knew few intresting things about our history during those years. Mostly it was about asking us to write few dates and events we must memorise and then telling us basicaly what was in our history book.

This lack of intrest in history might be a good thing for Germans, Poles and few other nations in Europe. Maybe we will stop looking in the past and start to look more in the future.

[toki]

This lack of intrest in history might be a good thing for Germans, Poles and few other nations in Europe. Maybe we will stop looking in the past and start to look more in the future.

Cynical, but hey if you don't know what happened you can't have prejudices. LOL

[Eokboy]

Goodbye Lenin - good movie

[Mastermind]

Kids always want someone to take care of them...that's why most parents have to actually kick them out of the nest. As they mature, and become more aware that they do not exist as the pure center of the universe, they wise up. You could poll just about any group of kids in this age group and get about the same results....in my opinion.

As an after thought, I found the same opinion voiced by convicts about to get out of prison..."The State should do a better job of taking care of me on the outside...or I'll come right back in."

[fish&chips]

Maybe I'm just illusory, but I like to think that, at age 16 in HS, I and my buddies where more concerned about the past, present and future of the world than "generation ringtone" is today.

[Abolith]

History - in this country, at least - has fallen into that horrible form of teaching where pupils are taught to pass their exams only. Rather than learning how and why events happened, pupils are just taught to put together an essay, and exam questions revolve around the phrase 'Using the sources...'.

Thankfully, I think my school year was one of the last to be taught the 'proper' way. Hands-on, teachers who made things exciting! Trips to Avebury, Roman re-enactors visiting...

*Waves grade As in the air*

it's not much better over here... although my history teacher some years ago was great.. he even took the class out to and old field so I could demo how to load and fire several types of civil war weapons... some students even fired off a few rounds... needless to say the tests on the civil war were some of the highest scoring in years, all because he made it exciting and the students had a real tangible connection to the past.


he did the same thing with his ancient histories this last year when he brought in several reenactors who showed how the romans, greeks and Gauls fought.

[muck]

Maybe I'm just illusory, but I like to think that, at age 16 in HS, I and my buddies where more concerned about the past, present and future of the world than "generation ringtone" is today.

Welcome to the club. At least it was not frowned upon to be interested in history.

[toki]

Welcome to the club. At least it was not frowned upon to be interested in history.

Take me in there.
Maybe the Gymnasium meant something more a few years ago, can't tell. I went to the only one in the city (out of 20+) that started solely with Latin (fully humanistic, you know. We didn't even have "Schulpraktikum" - pffft who needs to do regular work later). So you might get a little preselection. In the end, the quality of the school together with personal interest is the only thing that counts.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Kids always want someone to take care of them...that's why most parents have to actually kick them out of the nest. As they mature, and become more aware that they do not exist as the pure center of the universe, they wise up. You could poll just about any group of kids in this age group and get about the same results....in my opinion.

As an after thought, I found the same opinion voiced by convicts about to get out of prison..."The State should do a better job of taking care of me on the outside...or I'll come right back in."

Good post - and I agree. There's a large percentage of humans (everywhere) who will only work exactly as hard as they have to. In our society today - that's not very hard. People can coast along in blissful ignorance, and do just fine - somebody else will take care of everything for them.

[JoaMei]

But not in east Berlin! And i assume they polled 2 equal pools.

I'm pretty sure 15 year old "German" Germans are not doing alot better.
List of priorities:

1-Blaring crappy music on the Cellphone
2-Weed/Alcohol
3-how to get punani (fail/boast A: "Alta, isch hab die gefickt, ey oooohne Scheiß!" B: Ey Laaaber"))
4-"I gave him a headbutt and then *poaaaah*... here, check on my phone!"
5-Weed
6-Alcohol
7-50 cent
8-Rihanna -eh eh eh eh
....

12000- School
13458- Modern German History ("wtf happened 4 years before i was born? isch weiß nisch ey")

Bah verdammt, du bist schuld das mir der Kaffee durch die Nase wieder hoch kam. Zum Glück ist Chef nicht da.rofl

[Nightsky]

Here's Germany 2020 for you :cantbeli:

Here is why we have "Volksparteien", since nowadays Germans are too dumb to even read party programs .... they just vote for what the media seed.

No surprise here.

[shocker1]

Not trying to brag but I was put into this program called Outlook for gifted kids. It was a 2 day a week class from 8th to 12th grades. It only served to label me as a geek and made the CPrep work at school boring because normal school curriculum was not in step with Outlook. So now because of this inconsistency, I am an electrical engineering degree holder fixing cars for a living.

[vryhpyammoadded]

Kids always want someone to take care of them...that's why most parents have to actually kick them out of the nest. As they mature, and become more aware that they do not exist as the pure center of the universe, they wise up. You could poll just about any group of kids in this age group and get about the same results....in my opinion.

As an after thought, I found the same opinion voiced by convicts about to get out of prison..."The State should do a better job of taking care of me on the outside...or I'll come right back in."
Concepts using indoctrination and assimilation to teach discipline, responsibility, self reliance and integrity have flipped to institutionalized fear, low self esteem and immaturity promoting coddling and dependent behavior requiring the Sugar daddy tit and nanny state to provide everyone’s moral guidance and permission to act.
In effect, the dope pushers in charge have created a passive, dependent, captive audience of sheeple for the periodic fleecing or occasional slaughter should resources get tight.

I hope the schmucks enjoy there managerial elite, socialist overlords micromanaging there lives, turning them into willing slaves and cattle.

[Pvt.Anderson]

Bah verdammt, du bist schuld das mir der Kaffee durch die Nase wieder hoch kam. Zum Glück ist Chef nicht da.rofl

na ja i find that rather sad . pretty ****ing sad that's how far we've come .good night germany in 2020 . that's when the hippies and leftists will find out that they did a mistake ... in berlin the germans will be the minority .folks is THAT where we want to live ? conecerning the behaviour of today's immigrant youth I SURELY wouldn't
gute nacht deutschland

[toki]

na ja i find that rather sad . pretty ****ing sad that's how far we've come .good night germany in 2020 . that's when the hippies and leftists will find out that they did a mistake ... in berlin the germans will be the minority .folks is THAT where we want to live ? conecerning the behaviour of today's immigrant youth I SURELY wouldn't
gute nacht deutschland

1.)He laughed about my post. And i was refering to german kids, not immigrant kids. Don'T go there. Don't ruin the thread.

2.) Don't you think 'our' generation already survived the (parental?) 68er/hippie generation without being braindead? If it's the fault of te hippies WE should be as retarded as the younger generation. The problem is far more complex. Other societies face the same problems.

3.) I'm not saying everything is fine, that's why i wrote this little piece. But to blame "hippies", naja. Is it better in not so "socialist" states like the U.S.? No, the same. It's the globalization of stupidity. An example: Do you think MTV shows are socialist hippie crap? Still they are braindead. Lots of factors.

EDIT: BEfore anyone cries: I'm not blaming the U.S. here. LOL I re-read 3.) it and it might sound a bit like it.

This thread is about education and not immigration.

[toki]

Whatsoever, good night everyone. I'm out, hunting for Maxine from Bavaria... HEPPA! :)

[JoaMei]

Well the point is, I moved to the Ruhrgebiet a was thinking it cant be that bad like seen on comedyshows in TV. But seeing and hearig it now everyday in the Straßenbahn or on the Streets made me think its even worse. Truly its more sad than funny.

[intelligenzija]

But not in east Berlin! And i assume they polled 2 equal pools.

I'm pretty sure 15 year old "German" Germans are not doing alot better.
List of priorities:

1-Blaring crappy music on the Cellphone
2-Weed/Alcohol
3-how to get punani (fail/boast A: "Alta, isch hab die gefickt, ey oooohne Scheiß!" B: Ey Laaaber"))
4-"I gave him a headbutt and then *poaaaah*... here, check on my phone!"
5-Weed
6-Alcohol
7-50 cent
8-Rihanna -eh eh eh eh
....

12000- School
13458- Modern German History ("wtf happened 4 years before i was born? isch weiß nisch ey")

:D:D:D so true... is it so difficult to ****ounce "ich" ?? why does it always have to be "isch!" ??
reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Z6JjTAla4

[tsuri]

I'm pretty sure 15 year old "German" Germans are not doing alot better.

Correct.
The modern youth, my generation included, has lost all priorities. Just go and ask any regular 10th grader if they know the Name of the Chanchellor let alone the gender. They don`t. But they can recite the Top100 from up to 6 months in the past...

In other parts of the country they will not even know that the GDR does not exist anymore, so the Berlin children have an advantage there.

This thing is not part of the school curriculum and walking around with open eyes and ears is not so fashionable anymore either.

[SkyUS]

:D:D:D so true... is it so difficult to ****ounce "ich" ?? why does it always have to be "isch!" ??
reminds me of: youtube.com/watch?v=31Z6JjTAla4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Z6JjTAla4)

That is so sad, people just do not care anymore. Students study not for themselves but for the tests. With the minute they step out of the class they forget everything. Such people can be found everywhere. You should see the reaction of the people when I tell them that there are four seasons in Poland. They just assume that Poland is the land of ice and snow. Some do not even know wher Poland is and categorize me as a Russian and everybody else with a ski- ending last name or a slight slavic accent. For them it is the same sh1t. And there are some people who just dismiss a scholar based upon his nationality, instead of learning both sides of a conflict/dispute and understanding the reasons behind it. I think that I am one of the few students , who actually does not own a cell phone. I find it quite stupid to spend over $40 a month on a cell phone bill, when I can get few nice books to read instead.

People are just ignorant, you can find them everywhere. They just do not care about anything. I personally do not know how I am still able to go to the same school with these people. I am on a verge of a nervous breakdown.

rant mode off

PS

Gotta love that gal who thinks that she has a prostate gland in place of Adam's apple

[Mastermind]

Concepts using indoctrination and assimilation to teach discipline, responsibility, self reliance and integrity have flipped to institutionalized fear, low self esteem and immaturity promoting coddling and dependent behavior requiring the Sugar daddy tit and nanny state to provide everyone’s moral guidance and permission to act.
In effect, the dope pushers in charge have created a passive, dependent, captive audience of sheeple for the periodic fleecing or occasional slaughter should resources get tight.

I hope the schmucks enjoy there managerial elite, socialist overlords micromanaging there lives, turning them into willing slaves and cattle.

Ha..very well said...In fact I have pasted that into my book of "Things Well Said"...which I hope to publish some day...with everyone's permission, of course....

[Lambert58]

Maybe I'm just illusory, but I like to think that, at age 16 in HS, I and my buddies where more concerned about the past, present and future of the world than "generation ringtone" is today.

If I recall correctly, and I do, we were all pretty concerned about the world at large as young as 15. And we weren't taking anything for granted, either. Can only speak for the 26 people of my graduating class, though. Twin Bridges, Montana, 1986.

[NuclearHead]

Very dangerous. This is the type of environment that allowed Hitler to take over.

[Invisigoth]

That is so sad, people just do not care anymore. Students study not for themselves but for the tests. With the minute they step out of the class they forget everything. Such people can be found everywhere. You should see the reaction of the people when I tell them that there are four seasons in Poland. They just assume that Poland is the land of ice and snow. Some do not even know wher Poland is and categorize me as a Russian and everybody else with a ski- ending last name or a slight slavic accent. For them it is the same sh1t. And there are some people who just dismiss a scholar based upon his nationality, instead of learning both sides of a conflict/dispute and understanding the reasons behind it. I think that I am one of the few students , who actually does not own a cell phone. I find it quite stupid to spend over $40 a month on a cell phone bill, when I can get few nice books to read instead.

People are just ignorant, you can find them everywhere. They just do not care about anything. I personally do not know how I am still able to go to the same school with these people. I am on a verge of a nervous breakdown.

rant mode off

PS

Gotta love that gal who thinks that she has a prostate gland in place of Adam's apple

Berlin Wedding im Einkaufszentrum, noch Fragen (alda!) ? :P

(just referring to the location the clip was shot, btw its full of dumb people)

[perdurabo]

:D:D:D so true... is it so difficult to ****ounce "ich" ?? why does it always have to be "isch!" ??
reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Z6JjTAla4
that girl with prostate in her throat was closest to the real answer p-)

[Nightsky]

Very dangerous. This is the type of environment that allowed Hitler to take over.

Well, as long as BILD and Tagesschau make CDU and SPD appear as the ultimate parties for Germany, they will rule.

Should those TV stations and newspapers declare Republikaner or Linke for the "middle" and would mainly report about them in a positive manner, they'd be in charge soon enough.
The plebs is but a herd of cattle.

[toki]

:D:D:D so true... is it so difficult to ****ounce "ich" ?? why does it always have to be "isch!" ??
reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Z6JjTAla4

I don't know why it is so hard to say "ich". It has definitely nothing to do with dialects. But if i hear somebody saying "isch" instead of "ich", i know that his IQ is ranging somwehere between a banana and a slice of bread.

[Weasel]

I don't know why it is so hard to say "ich". It has definitely nothing to do with dialects. But if i hear somebody saying "isch" instead of "ich", i know that his IQ is ranging somwehere between a banana and a slice of bread.

Don´t misunderestimate bananas. :bash:

[Herrmannek]

Haha, Its all Erica Steinbach conspiracy :)

[muck]

Sometimes in the bus I have the feeling that the IQ of all people around me would be hardly enough for one single sane man.

It's kinda a cultural development. In past decades and centuries, you identified yourself with an ideology, an idea, maybe a religion.
I totally blame hip hop music for the state of today. Everyone wants to be a 50cent supagangzta. In addition to that comes an increased aggression potential among young immigrants, a blinded ideal of maleness which appears to demand revenge for every alleged act of 'libel'. I recently read something about a 19 years old who was stabbed by four lebanese after he had asked them to turn down their music. And the crime rate in that aspect is increasing in general. In cities, more than two third of all violent assaults are committed by male young immigrants under the age of 21. That's a matter of fact.

Goddamn we're talking like a bunch of old guys mourning the loss of values.

[Weasel]

The gap between rich and poor will get bigger and bigger. And so will the gap between educated and uneducated. Thanks to our political parties!

[name already taken]

The gap between rich and poor will get bigger and bigger. And so will the gap between educated and uneducated. Thanks to our political parties!
tsss.... (http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?amt=95.40&from=USD&to=CNY&submit=Convert) don't tell anybody, it might accelerate.

[intelligenzija]

Berlin Wedding im Einkaufszentrum, noch Fragen (alda!) ? :P

(just referring to the location the clip was shot, btw its full of dumb people)

Are you from Berlin? Einkaufszentren (Malls) are always the favorite habitats to
such people.. never been to that in Wedding though.. the worst is Gropius Passagen I assume

[Wodan]

Well, I mean.. its not like it is a *real federal state*, as Saxony or Bavaria, where there is a proper level of education,

they are ruled by socialists, filled with immigrants, and even the germans there are those who were too trashy to live in their ancestral home areas, berlin consists of both national migrants and international migrants, who all mostly left their area for their low chances in those(probably cuz of their low intelligence...)

:D

so, thats my reasoning for those idiots :)

Proud to be francon, where we germans still finish the PISA exams on the level of Japan, Finland and Norway ;)

From the PISA Exams
State competency points (students without non-german ethnic background)
Bavaria 528
Baden-Wuerttemberg 527
Saxony 509
Rhineland-Palantine 508
Schleswig-Holstein 506
Thuringia 505
Northrhine-Westphalia 504
Hessia 504
lower saxony 501
OECD-Average 500
Saarland 497
Bremen 493
Mecklenburg-Vorpommern 492
Saxony-Anhalt 478
Brandenburg 473


Federal state points (students of mixured/not ethnical german ancestry(only states with more than 10% immigrants among students) (share of 15 year olds with non-german/mixured background (in percentage))
OECD-Average 500
Bayern 479 20,5%
Saarland 463 18,5%
Rheinland-Pfalz 459 25,6%
Baden-Württemberg 456 27,7%
Schleswig-Holstein 445 14,3%
Hessen 444 33,5%
Nordrhein-Westfalen 438 30,7%
Niedersachsen 428 19,6%
Bremen 418 39,9%

I don´t know why berlin and hamburg has been left out in that statistics, but.. well.. you can imagine whats going on in berlin..
They have the highest shares of minorities of all german states..

[Weasel]

Now I know who´s belonging to the bananas amd sliced bread toki was talking about.

[little icebear]

Very dangerous. This is the type of environment that allowed Hitler to take over.

So hard to decide... which smilie should I use? This one: :cantbeli:? Or maybe that:rofl?

I think I go for rofl

[loganinkosovo]

The gap between rich and poor will get bigger and bigger. And so will the gap between educated and uneducated. Thanks to our political parties!

More like thanks to the Teacher's Unions......

The gap is between public and private schools and the Teacher's Union is blocking any attempt for parents to use vouchers to get their children a proper education in a private school.

[PsychoMantis]

Very dangerous. This is the type of environment that allowed Hitler to take over.
Yes,Germany is a pathetic and pale comparisson to thoese days. Is the immigration problem that bad?

[Surf City]

Good post - and I agree. There's a large percentage of humans (everywhere) who will only work exactly as hard as they have to. In our society today - that's not very hard. People can coast along in blissful ignorance, and do just fine - somebody else will take care of everything for them.

The problem is most people don't realize that the "somebody" is going to be the ones who want to destroy their way of life! People(here) don't see the danger of not learning history's lessons and seeing in the majority of the world freedom is a privilege and not a right. Nowadays, history's lessons are forgotten or revised in a generation or two!

[RS_Leo1A5]

Here is why we have "Volksparteien", since nowadays Germans are too dumb to even read party programs
As if there would be much use in reading party programs - once elected any party usually breaks every single promise made during the election campaigns...

[little icebear]

More like thanks to the Teacher's Unions......

The gap is between public and private schools and the Teacher's Union is blocking any attempt for parents to use vouchers to get their children a proper education in a private school.

Bullcrap. If there´s a problem with public schools, than it needs to be fixed. The state has to provide free education for everyone. It´s a constitutional right in Germany.
And there are private schools in Germany. Not many, though. They even get support from the state in terms of funding.
Another thing: I think you can´t blame it all on the schools. It´s although to an - I think much larger - extend the parents who are to blame.

[Invisigoth]

Are you from Berlin? Einkaufszentren (Malls) are always the favorite habitats to
such people.. never been to that in Wedding though.. the worst is Gropius Passagen I assume

No, I was there on business last week and went to a mall to find a pharmacy cause my girlfriend was sick. While the mall was in one of the nicer areas of Berlin (Potsdamer Platz), there were still plenty of young people in ridiculous outfits using it as their 'hang out' place. Seriously, how can you hang out in a mall? I'd understand if you had a purpose there, but to hang out, not do anything but sit around? Go outside, play in the woods, have a game of risk with your friends or learn something from your parents.

I realize that I am starting to sound more and more like my granddad who is constantly lamenting the 'family values' of the pre-1968 generation. Yet, my parents were part of the 68 generation and they did a fine job raising me, and now here I sit doing the same complaining about today's 'youth'. I really wonder what the **** is going on in my country.

And yes, as ugly as it is, I believe the current situation is in (large) part(s) due to uncontrolled immigration and we desperately need a mature public debate about the topic in Germany. I am not a conservative and have never voted for the CDU, primarily because of their unacceptable political figures, but I have reached a point where I'd give my vote to any politician who would promise me a mature and honest public debate about European immigration issues. Its the next big socio-political and economic challenge for our country and its about time we ditch the ostrich tactic and face reality.

My 0.02

[Nightsky]

As if there would be much use in reading party programs - once elected any party usually breaks every single promise made during the election campaigns...

fair enough and amazing, that they get reelected over and over again despite this fact :lol:

[Wodan]

No, I was there on business last week and went to a mall to find a pharmacy cause my girlfriend was sick. While the mall was in one of the nicer areas of Berlin (Potsdamer Platz), there were still plenty of young people in ridiculous outfits using it as their 'hang out' place. Seriously, how can you hang out in a mall? I'd understand if you had a purpose there, but to hang out, not do anything but sit around? Go outside, play in the woods, have a game of risk with your friends or learn something from your parents.


Uhhm.. how about:

There are plenty of such teens around...
Its just that you won´t see them, how often do you have fun in the woods? :D

[Weasel]

No, I was there on business last week and went to a mall to find a pharmacy cause my girlfriend was sick. While the mall was in one of the nicer areas of Berlin (Potsdamer Platz), there were still plenty of young people in ridiculous outfits using it as their 'hang out' place. Seriously, how can you hang out in a mall? I'd understand if you had a purpose there, but to hang out, not do anything but sit around? Go outside, play in the woods, have a game of risk with your friends or learn something from your parents.

I realize that I am starting to sound more and more like my granddad who is constantly lamenting the 'family values' of the pre-1968 generation. Yet, my parents were part of the 68 generation and they did a fine job raising me, and now here I sit doing the same complaining about today's 'youth'. I really wonder what the **** is going on in my country.

And yes, as ugly as it is, I believe the current situation is in (large) part(s) due to uncontrolled immigration and we desperately need a mature public debate about the topic in Germany. I am not a conservative and have never voted for the CDU, primarily because of their unacceptable political figures, but I have reached a point where I'd give my vote to any politician who would promise me a mature and honest public debate about European immigration issues. Its the next big socio-political and economic challenge for our country and its about time we ditch the ostrich tactic and face reality.

My 0.02

If you have a problem blame the immigrants. Worked 60 years ago, still works today. No offense, I´m sure your not a Nazi but your assumption is just too easy. We don´t have uncontrolled immigration and we can´t blame immigrants for our politicians and lack of parental education.

[Weasel]

fair enough and amazing, that they get reelected over and over again despite this fact :lol:

Because you don´t have real alternatives. All alternatives are radical. :)

[Quack of Doom]

Very dangerous. This is the type of environment that allowed Hitler to take over.
Wow, you're just as ignorant as the kids we're talking 'bout in this thread :bash:

[tsuri]

No, I was there on business last week and went to a mall to find a pharmacy cause my girlfriend was sick. While the mall was in one of the nicer areas of Berlin (Potsdamer Platz), there were still plenty of young people in ridiculous outfits using it as their 'hang out' place. Seriously, how can you hang out in a mall? I'd understand if you had a purpose there, but to hang out, not do anything but sit around? Go outside, play in the woods, have a game of risk with your friends or learn something from your parents.

The problem is: They have no places to go. But if they recieve one, they will destroy it (happens here all the time)


Because you don´t have real alternatives. All alternatives are radical.

I would not say that. There are enough small, non radical parties out there. People could even vote for the Liberals, they have not had much chanche to fail on their own.
But this time it will change to the radical. A landslide SED victory is very possible.

[Weasel]

I would not say that. There are enough small, non radical parties out there. People could even vote for the Liberals, they have not had much chanche to fail on their own.
But this time it will change to the radical. A landslide SED victory is very possible.

I agree. But these small, non-radical parties are not supposed to push things into the right direction. People still believe in big party -> big influence -> better chances for changes.

[intelligenzija]

If you have a problem blame the immigrants. Worked 60 years ago, still works today. No offense, I´m sure your not a Nazi but your assumption is just too easy. We don´t have uncontrolled immigration and we can´t blame immigrants for our politicians and lack of parental education.

I don't think you can compare the situation 70 years ago to our situation today because it's actually a fact that Germany has a problem with immigrants.
The failures are rooted in the 70s when Germany was still rich and treated immigrants not just very humane but rather royal!
I think their attitude to Germany the country which provided everything and asked for nothing was 'disturbed'. And that got even worse within the younger generations. They don't take Germans seriously, show no respect and take everything for granted. Look at the youth: they consider Germans as victims not as equal people because most of them don't share their oriental 'manly values'.
Maybe you are right, there is propably no uncontrolled immigration to Germany. The problem, more likely is how the attitude of immigrants to Germany develops and how it spreads to the German youth.

Also, you can blame of course MTV, but MTV actually reacts the needs of the audience. If no one would order songs like 'du hast den schönsten arsch der welt' MTV would stop selling it :)

At the moment I cannot spot any solution to that problem.

[Asheren]

That is so sad, people just do not care anymore. Students study not for themselves but for the tests. With the minute they step out of the class they forget everything. Such people can be found everywhere. You should see the reaction of the people when I tell them that there are four seasons in Poland. They just assume that Poland is the land of ice and snow. Some do not even know wher Poland is and categorize me as a Russian and everybody else with a ski- ending last name or a slight slavic accent. For them it is the same sh1t. And there are some people who just dismiss a scholar based upon his nationality, instead of learning both sides of a conflict/dispute and understanding the reasons behind it. I think that I am one of the few students , who actually does not own a cell phone. I find it quite stupid to spend over $40 a month on a cell phone bill, when I can get few nice books to read instead.

People are just ignorant, you can find them everywhere. They just do not care about anything. I personally do not know how I am still able to go to the same school with these people. I am on a verge of a nervous breakdown.

rant mode off

PS

Gotta love that gal who thinks that she has a prostate gland in place of Adam's apple

Well get used to it. What is worst such peoples end working somewhere where that kind of knowledge might be necessary. When i was writing my security technician certificate work I have ordered some books from UK. Some time later after expected arrival date expired i was asking our post did they got my package. Nope never got it. Then i wrote a mail to this online book store where the hell is my stuff. Some times later i got a mail that they are sorry but someone in their shiping department sent my stuff to Africa.

[Pvt.Anderson]

Sometimes in the bus I have the feeling that the IQ of all people around me would be hardly enough for one single sane man.

It's kinda a cultural development. In past decades and centuries, you identified yourself with an ideology, an idea, maybe a religion.
I totally blame hip hop music for the state of today. Everyone wants to be a 50cent supagangzta. In addition to that comes an increased aggression potential among young immigrants, a blinded ideal of maleness which appears to demand revenge for every alleged act of 'libel'. I recently read something about a 19 years old who was stabbed by four lebanese after he had asked them to turn down their music. And the crime rate in that aspect is increasing in general. In cities, more than two third of all violent assaults

are committed by male young immigrants under the age of 21. That's a matter of fact.

Goddamn we're talking like a bunch of old guys mourning the loss of values.


I don't think you can compare the situation 70 years ago to our situation today because it's actually a fact that Germany has a problem with immigrants.
The failures are rooted in the 70s when Germany was still rich and treated immigrants not just very humane but rather royal!
I think their attitude to Germany the country which provided everything and asked for nothing was 'disturbed'. And that got even worse within the younger generations. They don't take Germans seriously, show no respect and take everything for granted. Look at the youth: they consider Germans as victims not as equal people because most of them don't share their oriental 'manly values'.
Maybe you are right, there is propably no uncontrolled immigration to Germany. The problem, more likely is how the attitude of immigrants to Germany develops and how it spreads to the German youth.

Also, you can blame of course MTV, but MTV actually reacts the needs of the audience. If no one would order songs like 'du hast den schönsten arsch der welt' MTV would stop selling it :)

At the moment I cannot spot any solution to that problem.


Well a couple of weeks ago I was going to school in a Straßenbahn and it was like 10 to 8 am ,so that about 2/3s of its seats were free . I've been sitting on a Bench with 2 seats and been learning some stuff I can't remember .Then suddenly a guy takes place besides me and pushes my leg to the side ,and when I took a look at him he went "cmon make some space for my pal" . Luckily his mate was slightly sane and told him to stop . (They were clearly recognizable as 2 turkish immigrants) .Situations like this make me wish the NPD was in charge of the immigrant policy . People don't get me wrong but the immigrant youth ,based on my experiences AND those of family members and mates ,does not know how to behave in a proper way . All they seem to long for is belittleling and provocating other people ESPECIALLY "native" looking people ,beat them to hell if they feel to and sometimes (very very rarly though ;isn't very rarely already too much?) they even kill with reasons that could make one explode out of hate and anger .
Now anybody that has never been in such a situation and isn't confronted with those morons on a daily basis should please shut his mouth and make his own experiences ,and in a german city nowadays,trust me you won't wait long for sth like this to happen .
No matter where you go ,cinema shopping mall , where I live they're also very present at McDonalds restaurants and discotheques (that's by far the worst btw) ,simply everywhere .
Now this makes me extremely mad and folks seriously . Where the hell did our pride go ?

Yes I can already see me being depicted as nazi ,but I do hate those just like the ones I described in the article . No person would dare to say anything negative about immigrants ,but my behavior is just a reaction to theirs .
Well people I think a proper immigration policy just wouldn't make the situation any better since the people we talk about do already live in our country and a certain amount of them surely have the german citizenship ; it's the 3rd / 4th generation of immigrants that causes problems .

All I can say is Germany / Europe wake up !

[Invisigoth]

If you have a problem blame the immigrants. Worked 60 years ago, still works today. No offense, I´m sure your not a Nazi but your assumption is just too easy. We don´t have uncontrolled immigration and we can´t blame immigrants for our politicians and lack of parental education.

For me personally its not an assumption. What's relevant to me is what I see and experience and I can tell you that the only fights I've been in in my life have been with kids with clear migration backgrounds; and my personal safety is definitely something that matters to me. I have nothing against immigration in general, quite the opposite, but the bad immigration and integration policies of German governments over the past decades have gotten us into exactly the same mess as the French: 3rd gen. migrant kids with sh*t education, sh*t German and sh*t-all to do.

[Russian_dude]

No, I was there on business last week and went to a mall to find a pharmacy cause my girlfriend was sick. While the mall was in one of the nicer areas of Berlin (Potsdamer Platz), there were still plenty of young people in ridiculous outfits using it as their 'hang out' place. Seriously, how can you hang out in a mall? I'd understand if you had a purpose there, but to hang out, not do anything but sit around? Go outside, play in the woods, have a game of risk with your friends or learn something from your parents.



My 0.02

After an all night mind bender in some club, hanging out at the mall is all I could do on a Sunday afternoon and I used to read University level history books when I was 10.

There is simply nothing for youth to do that is inexpensive. My family is well off, they paid my flying courses when I was 16 and SCUBA classes when I was 17. Most kids simply can't afford to do anything but hang at the mall, especially in the big cities. To go "play in the woods" would require a car and an hour's drive.

"back in the day", kids that weren't studying were simply working in a factory or something.

[JoaMei]

Best solution for the Problem would be School until evening (Ganztagsschulen). And at least one Hour Sport per day will help to reduce their after school "activities".

But the Immigrant problems should also be adressed, especially making Language skills a Priority.

[Nephilim]

ah well :)
its not only the youth seems to be quite retarded here..
theres also alot of adults who are/act quite stupid..

eg. some dudes dressed up as former GDR police men and walked along the streets asking people for their ID cards..
no a single one actually noticed that they are GDR!! altogh theyve showed them their police ID and its quite obvious that they werent actual police officers due their old uniform...

other people dont even know where the Rhein is or the Donau...
some freak pointed on map somewhere near hamburg...
for a german thats quite a shame..
but to be honest being 15 you really care about different things and schools sucks big time and thats quite how we all felt didnt we?

but thats not only fact in germany... if youd ask a kid in the US to show where lakeX is he wouldnt know for sure..

and as far as the generetion ringtone... yea morons..
they should be taken away their cellphones and get their heads clubbed!p-)


and PISA was a whole bunch of bullsh!t..
our class was one of the first to do that test..
catastrophy.. they wanted us to solve mathematical themed problems that we heard of the very first time..
so can you blame the students or the teachers/school scedule?

politicians dont really have any immersion in this field and just create laws like crazy to at least pretend theyd care in a way.. they try but honestly... if you dont really deal with the actual problems in depth its quite invain..

[Breakfast in Vegas]

but thats not only fact in germany... if youd ask a kid in the US to show where lakeX is he wouldnt know for sure..

Don't generalize... not every American kid is oblivious to the world around him. Some kids actually like geography. They get beaten up a lot.

[Nephilim]

im not generelizing
but some know others dont and often these who dont know get more attention by the media creating quite a fake perception of the countries youth.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

im not generelizing
but some know others dont and often these who dont know get more attention by the media creating quite a fake perception of the countries youth.
Actually I think you are on target that there is a lot of apathy or ignorance on the part of some American youth, but a lot of the high schools are quite OK and kids get a decent education. At least I never felt lacking when comparing that which I learned in high school with that which is taught in Germany at Gymnasium.

As for German youth, I deal with them all the time (live in Germany) and can say on some days I'm impressed with their knowledge and on other days disgusted with their lack of manners and culture. Basically the Sido/Bushido syndrome.

The saddest part for me is that the traditional strengths of German education, the co-called "classical education", seems to be taking a big hit as the curriculum is adjusted to modern times, i.e. dumbed down.

There are also big differences between regions... Bayern and Baden-Württemberg are definitely ahead of Berlin-Brandenburg, NRW etc. in terms of standards and quality of education.

[muck]

As for German youth, I deal with them all the time (live in Germany) and can say on some days I'm impressed with their knowledge and on other days disgusted with their lack of manners and culture. Basically the Sido/Bushido syndrome.

Quoted for Godlike truth. Especially the latter is the plague of these days.

[Nephilim]

my words..
im from berlin and those 16year old wannabe gangstas from posh zehlendorf think they live in some sort of ghetto.


Actually I think you are on target that there is a lot of apathy or ignorance on the part of some American youth, but a lot of the high schools are quite OK and kids get a decent education. At least I never felt lacking when comparing that which I learned in high school with that which is taught in Germany at Gymnasium.yep, but as i said that also present elsewhere :)
theres always few that are complete morons...

and now excuse me i need to go and download another 500 ringtones just for the sake of being hipp-)

[Mastermind]

If you have a problem blame the immigrants. Worked 60 years ago, still works today. No offense, I´m sure your not a Nazi but your assumption is just too easy. We don´t have uncontrolled immigration and we can´t blame immigrants for our politicians and lack of parental education.
I personally think that is quite closed minded. Immigration is a huge part of the problem in any society. Illegal immigration is even more of a problem by several powers of ten. Rampant legal immigration is a sign of a very weak voting constituency. Eventually, immigrants gain political power through sheer numbers...that percentage is not at all as large as one might think...around 6%. At that point, the way politicians work at very narrow margins of popularity, 6% becomes a very desirable voting block to put in your camp. Eventually, it turns out the immigrants, typically voting on narrow issues (all dealing with "fair treatment" for aliens) become an essential majority when politicians pander to them. Their small percentage is power enough to actually turn an election! (and please, don't give the stuff about "Immigrants can't legally vote." we all pretty much know how that goes or politicians would not be pandering to them as they do)

I am really surprised most folks don't understand the consequences of failure to limit immigration into any society! Eventually, your society is diluted to an unrecognizable point and you will see your nation's history, culture and power drained away...dissolved into some sort of amalgamated multi-cultural pond froth.

Now, before you get out your flame thrower, remember, I did not say anything supporting a stop to immigration…immigration is an extremely important part of any nation to bring in new blood and new ideas….I am talking about too much too fast…there are limits that should never be exceeded because when too many enter all at once, they fail to assimilate into the welcoming society…they find comfort in each other…same language, same culture thing…distrust government….and thus become vulnerable to rascal politicians who prey on them…as do criminals and unscrupulous employers.

If gvt is going to allow in the millions, then gvt must be prepared to take care of their needs and to do what is necessary to help them assimilate into the national culture.

[Nephilim]

some true grain in that.
tho the older generation of immigrants is more grateful than than the later ones name the youth
i often hear them say fvck germany and so on.. (mainly turkish.. sorryp-))
id sometimes would like to shout at them go fvck off to your country and hump goats if you dont like it here...
its really just upsetting.. here in germany theyll getting payed everything whilest in their own country prolly no one would even care.
:/

[toki]

some true grain in that.
tho the older generation of immigrants is more grateful than than the later ones name the youth
i often hear them say fvck germany and so on.. (mainly turkish.. sorryp-))
id sometimes would like to shout at them go fvck off to your country and hump goats if you dont like it here...
its really just upsetting.. here in germany theyll getting payed everything whilest in their own country prolly no one would even care.
:/

That's the point. The problems are not really there because we now have a huge immigration wave. Who's coming now? Mainly russians. And i'd say it's not really that we have so many illegals, mostly africans. We do kick them out compared to the U.S. where there seems to be a huge group of illegals from the southern border.

Good parts of the third generation seem to be a failure in integration.
IMHO we should have pushed harder for integration laws in the 60's and 70's. "Gastarbeiter" were thought to leave. This was obviously the biggest misconception. We never integrated immigrants like the americans do. 70 year old turkish women who spend half their life here without basic language skills are also a result of ignorant politics.

Whatsoever: My point is, that we did the biggest mistkes 30-40 years ago.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

That's the point. The problems are not really there because we now have a huge immigration wave. Who's coming now? Mainly russians. And i'd say it's not really that we have so many illegals, mostly africans. We do kick them out compared to the U.S. where there seems to be a huge group of illegals from the southern border.

Good parts of the third generation seem to be a failure in integration.
IMHO we should have pushed harder for integration laws in the 60's and 70's. "Gastarbeiter" were thought to leave. This was obviously the biggest misconception. We never integrated immigrants like the americans do. 70 year old turkish women who spend half their life here without basic language skills are also a result of ignorant politics.

Whatsoever: My point is, that we did the biggest mistkes 30-40 years ago.
In my office a cleaning crew of Turkish ladies comes in once a week. Besides the fact that they break more things than actually cleaning them, they still don't speak German after living her for 30 years plus.

Those born in Germany obviously learn to speak German in various levels of eloquence and fluency, but many of them don't identify with Germany at all. Ask a German-born Turk what his nationality is and he'll almost invariably say "Turkish", even if he only goes there once a year for 4 weeks. Same goes with Russians. They are through and through Russian... except when they go to the Sozialamt to apply for welfare.... suddenly they become very patriotic Germans.

Immigrants are here to stay... and in theory at least the country needs them as workforce... but unless they integrate, social problems are going to get worse. I'm no better than the politicians we blame for everything though, I don't have a magic solution.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

oops....
http://www.spiegel.de/schulspiegel/wissen/0,1518,516952,00.html
Results are quite weighted by geography and social factors, but interesting nonetheless.

[Pvt.Anderson]

In my office a cleaning crew of Turkish ladies comes in once a week. Besides the fact that they break more things than actually cleaning them, they still don't speak German after living her for 30 years plus.

Those born in Germany obviously learn to speak German in various levels of eloquence and fluency, but many of them don't identify with Germany at all. Ask a German-born Turk what his nationality is and he'll almost invariably say "Turkish", even if he only goes there once a year for 4 weeks. Same goes with Russians. They are through and through Russian... except when they go to the Sozialamt to apply for welfare.... suddenly they become very patriotic Germans.

Immigrants are here to stay... and in theory at least the country needs them as workforce... but unless they integrate, social problems are going to get worse. I'm no better than the politicians we blame for everything though, I don't have a magic solution.

You're quite right about this ,you know how the immigrant youth goes : "Scheiss Kartoffel" is just an example. Yet the reason why a huge part of them don't identify themselfes as germans is hardly understandable .
Many turkish youngsters claim that germany sucks and they feel superior to germans because they are real men (latino looking machos that get all the good looking girls is probably what they mean with it) that are not so "pussies" like germans considering the readiness to fight .

[ren0312]

I personally think that is quite closed minded. Immigration is a huge part of the problem in any society. Illegal immigration is even more of a problem by several powers of ten. Rampant legal immigration is a sign of a very weak voting constituency. Eventually, immigrants gain political power through sheer numbers...that percentage is not at all as large as one might think...around 6%. At that point, the way politicians work at very narrow margins of popularity, 6% becomes a very desirable voting block to put in your camp. Eventually, it turns out the immigrants, typically voting on narrow issues (all dealing with "fair treatment" for aliens) become an essential majority when politicians pander to them. Their small percentage is power enough to actually turn an election! (and please, don't give the stuff about "Immigrants can't legally vote." we all pretty much know how that goes or politicians would not be pandering to them as they do)

I am really surprised most folks don't understand the consequences of failure to limit immigration into any society! Eventually, your society is diluted to an unrecognizable point and you will see your nation's history, culture and power drained away...dissolved into some sort of amalgamated multi-cultural pond froth.

Now, before you get out your flame thrower, remember, I did not say anything supporting a stop to immigration…immigration is an extremely important part of any nation to bring in new blood and new ideas….I am talking about too much too fast…there are limits that should never be exceeded because when too many enter all at once, they fail to assimilate into the welcoming society…they find comfort in each other…same language, same culture thing…distrust government….and thus become vulnerable to rascal politicians who prey on them…as do criminals and unscrupulous employers.

If gvt is going to allow in the millions, then gvt must be prepared to take care of their needs and to do what is necessary to help them assimilate into the national culture.

My preference is for net immigration to be no more than 0.12 per cent of the population, under that rule, France still needs to double its net immigration, the problem with this approach is that countries have no choice but to raise their fertility rate to above replacement rate, since a country will not have the choice to have mass immigration in order to make up for a below replacement fertility rate.

[Wodan]

a turk is a turk, a german is a german..
the only ones not understanding it are the liberals..

the turks know it so do we..

[Hotzenplotz]

Olà! BTW if the young Germans aren*t identifying theirself with Germany how would 3rd generation non-integrated immigrant children?

And of the so-called "Turkish" young ones. They*ll be so long the diehard machos until the letter comes with the order for conscript military service in Turkey. Most of them are also Turkish citizen, too.

A few years ago I*ve been in (western) Turkey. The people are modern, modest and friendly. And they*re arguing that our problem with the integration of the Turkish is that the first immigrants were from "19th century" eastern Anatolia with all its backward traditions etc. And the*re right.

I*m from northeastern Germany ("former GDR"). We*ve not sooo the probs with integration of immigrants. True we*ve nearly no immigrants here.

I*m serving in the northwestern Part of Germany. There*s the situation quiet different.

And for PISA: Finland has everytime top scores while Germany is f***ing up. Does anyone know which education system the Finnish have?

That one of the former GDR. (No joke.)
In the process of reunification of Germany I*ve spent a whole year in school without learning anything anew. When we asked why. We were told that*s for getting East and West on the same level. (Also no joke.)

Pse don*t misunderstand me. I*ve welcomed the reunification now and then. Wouldn*t be serving in the German Navy if otherwise. The only "but" I have is that a few bits of the GDR weren*t a complete failure.

[Wall]

I'm pretty sure 15 year old "German" Germans are not doing alot better.
List of priorities:

This message comes late, but i think that there must be other reasons too.
In Finland, i can say, that 15 old youngsters arent really interested about school. Still finland is at good rank example on PISA test.
Of course i dont know situation in Germany, so i cant compare these.

[toki]

This message comes late, but i think that there must be other reasons too.
In Finland, i can say, that 15 old youngsters arent really interested about school. Still finland is at good rank example on PISA test.
Of course i dont know situation in Germany, so i cant compare these.

Germany ranks worst in one category afaik: The connection between social background and achievements in school. That again depends on few factors like early selections in school. We have 3 to 4 forms of highschool: Gymnasium (5-13th grade enables you to go to uni), Realschule (5-10th grade - may switch to Gymnasium later), Hauptschule (lowest "lifeform" no chance, enables you to NOT get any job) and Gesamtschule (comprehensive school, kind of a mix, enables you to go to Uni if you don't screw it). This system is reviewed at the moment. The fact you get screwed over in 4th grade is a "bit" of a problem. Only in Gymnasium you will learn to "international" standards and get a real chance to get higher education.
If you put it in easy words: Kids are lazy everywhere, but if you end up in a bad schoolform you won't get proper motivation at all.
Late bloomer? Too bad... "good bye!". And we're not speaking of private schools and public schools here. Almost everybody goes to public schools.

Another thing is that German school politics is done by the federal states. That means in East Germany kids only go 12 years to Gymnasium, while in the west they go 13). Some states have individual exams, some have central exams. Alot more differences, sometimes like different countries. Someone correct me if i'm wrong, it's a few years since i went to school. Changes are slow, complicated and not uniform. The root is the highly federal nature of Germany, which obviously has certain reasons.

My idea would be to expect more of any kid at school. Keep the level high and motivate the bad apples instead of seeding them out with 10 years old.
I know... if it would be that easy. But downgrading the profile of a certain school to reach the kids is the wrong way. So you create an army of idiots.
And jobs in Germany (and any western nation) are more and more dependng on communications skills. The 'dumb' labour is done somewhere else. That's why we cannot accpet this development. The kids who are meant to start an early joblife are not fit enough anymore. If you get out of the lowest school form the kids of a better school who are supposed to become academics will take your job as a mechanic if they feel like it and you can do nothing about it.
The school system missed a certain developement.

Thanks god i went to Gymnasium, and a good one IMHO.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Gymnasium switched to 12 years in the west too AFAIK... meaning 13 years of curriculum are now crammed into 12. The fact that a child's future is essentially decided in the 4th grade is brutal, especially considering that a lot depends on the local schools. Some are hard and only send the absolute best to Gynasium... others are more lax and send about half the class. This is the first year btw that parents cannot insist which school their kids go to, the teachers determine it.

Studies have found that boys are doing much worse than girls, as girls mature more quickly and adjust to the tough curriculum earlier. What 3rd grade boy cares about anything?

Another problem is that the German system is designed so that kids do a lot of homework at home, under the archaic assumption that one parent will be home to help. More and more Germany is becoming a nation of two income families and with kids leaving school at 1 in the afternoon where they are SUPPOSED to go home and do homework, with no parental guidance they are instead finding other "hobbies".

I won't say Germany's system is disasterous, as Germany still produces a lot of bright youth, but essentially its school structure is a form of social castes... with those kids being assigned to Hauptschule and even Realschule being exposed to much harsher realities of life... drugs, violence etc... at an earlier age and much higher intensity than the "elite" of the Gymnasium.

[toki]

Gymnasium switched to 12 years in the west too AFAIK...
Very recent though? Not sure. Does it mean that in one year you have a guy, one year younger finishing school with you? Weird.



The fact that a child's future is essentially decided in the 4th grade is brutal, especially considering that a lot depends on the local schools. Some are hard and only send the absolute best to Gynasium...
Yes, i my experience, even the "stupid" guys who slipped into Gymnasium often times are doing pretty good alot later, sometimes as late as University. And if you're seeded out you will never have a chance to show, just because your bad school and social environment will screw you over.



Another problem is that the German system is designed so that kids do a lot of homework at home, under the archaic assumption that one parent will be home to help. More and more Germany is becoming a nation of two income families and with kids leaving school at 1 in the afternoon where they are SUPPOSED to go home and do homework, with no parental guidance they are instead finding other "hobbies".

I forgot that point. In other countries kids are kept longer under "surveillance". The kids who adapt to it will have a nice time, the others are screwed. It's alot about personal motivation. My parents were lax, because they completely trusted in me. Which was my freedom, i never had to explain things, because i did pretty good. I did my stuff and never brought a "5" home.

Then again a school with long hours and an "aquarium" like social life with 110% school spirit would feel like prison to typical german students. You normally have half your social life outside of school even at a young age, which has it's pros. Not sure if this is normal in other countries. Hollywood makes it seem, not. "I'm poular at school!"... who cares, it's just a morning activity. ;-) Team sports and school are also seperated. There are no "stars" in school.
I did Swimming, Football and Basketball in club teams, but never in school teams, because we didn't have any real ones.
2 sides of the medal.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I think they switched to 12 years about 2 years ago, at least in NRW. Not sure how they managed the transition.

As for after school, typically in the US (which isn't a model of efficiency but also not as bad as its rep) you are in school until about 3pm, and then either go home or participate in some school-supervised activity until about 5:30, such as sports, theater, music, business leaders club etc. For kids with even average motivation, it's at the very least a great opportunity to develop social/group activity skills, something that much of today's increasingly introverted youth suffer from. Germany has club sports, but they are so binding/complicated in their membership rules and requirements that many kids avoid them. Besides that, if you have kids you know that taking them to football/judo/piano lessons after school 4-5 times a week is a real hassle for the parents, not to mention costly.

Germany's schools in my opinion are still good, but like many things in Germany are losing the war of progress and globalization. In Germany there is a paradox of being a modern and powerful nation, yet clinging to some seemingly archaic and silly old traditions such as "everything closed on Sunday", church tax, social caste school system etc. etc.

[toki]

I think they switched to 12 years about 2 years ago, at least in NRW. Not sure how they managed the transition.


ok i found something:

Umstellungen in der Praxis
Die konkrete Umsetzung des Programms bedingt folgende Maßnahmen:
Seit dem Schuljahr 2005/2006 an werden alle Gymnasien auf achtjährige Bildungsgänge bis zum Abitur umgestellt. Die Klasse 6 kann auf Wunsch der Schulen einbezogen werden.
http://www.schulministerium.nrw.de/BP/Schulpolitik/Schulzeitverkuerzung/index.html

2005/06 means that the real transition class will be 2013/14. Or?!? Whatsoever, fact is they changed it. In some way or the other you need a transition window. Had a long day... :)