Police Weapons of the World

[BOB1]

Looking for a site that list each nations individual police forces weapons. Can anyone direct me someplace? Thanks! :)

[Ian H]

You'll be lucky. :P


Not to be rude, but I tried to find out what weapons the various British Police forces use, and had very little success, so on a worldwide scale its highly unlikely.

Such a site would be extremely interesting, but almost certainly doesn't exist.

[scm77]

Here's a start. Glock 22 and 23. That's about half of north america right there.

[oldsoak]

Theres a chap called Cx20, I think, who would be well placed to answer any questions about weaponry issued to UK police. I think we have most of HK's offerings, but in semi auto only, but he will be able to confirm or deny this.

[BOB1]

I need a bit more to go on then that scm77, all you are stating is conjecture and most likely true but I need a little more then your opinion.

[Laconian]

There are almost 15,000 (maybe more) local, state & Federal law enforcement agencies in the US alone. To get a TO&E on every one would be a huge undertaking. Plus contracts run out, agencies upgrade weapons & calibers, admnistrations change etc., etc. A lot of times, unless you come across a gun stroke from an agency, they don't like to advertise what their folks are carrying. Now do that for every country in the world. Yikes!!
It would be a career just compiling the list...Good luck.

[Glock]

in austria the police use the Glock17 as stabdert Sidearm. For undercoverwork they use the glock19. They also use the Steyr AUG Carabine and the Mpi88 (the Steyr AUG in 9mm, in austria called "Submichienegun 88")
The Cobra (Anti Terror unit use special wepon like Glock18, Steyr AUG HBAR, HK MP5A3,SD,K,...)
Gratings Leo

(In the US the Police over 50 % Glocks) (They have all from 17-21 bot primaly the 22)

[FallenAngel]

Most US police departments issue Glocks or Berreta 92s.

As far as "tactical weapons"...well, that can be anything from Daddy's double barrel shot gun in some really rural towns to the latest stuff from HK and Colt among other notable manufacturers in major cities with all the goodies to attach as well.

[Ian H]

I should explain my last post. It is possible to find open source information about the weapons used by some UK police forces, but not all.
CX20 knows a lot, and I've learned much from reading his posts, but even he is unlikely to be able to reel off each force's issue pistol, carbine etc.

On a general level though:
Glock 17
Browning Hi-Power
Sig-Sauer P-226
Beretta 92F(S?)
Walther P99
HK MP5SF
HK 53
HK G36K and C
Steyr AUG, in 5.56mm and 9mm

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it probably covers most UK issued weapons.

If you want to get an exhaustive list, take an airsoft gun and a notepad and go for a walk in each force area. ;)

[Glock]

There are not many Berettas at the US Police Forces, you look too much TV. I think there also much SigSauer and S&W Pistols. By the way hase someone exactly informations or photos about the AUG in UK Police Forces?

[Gringo]

I should explain my last post. It is possible to find open source information about the weapons used by some UK police forces, but not all.
CX20 knows a lot, and I've learned much from reading his posts, but even he is unlikely to be able to reel off each force's issue pistol, carbine etc.

On a general level though:
Glock 17
Browning Hi-Power
Sig-Sauer P-226
Beretta 92F(S?)
Walther P99
HK MP5SF
HK 53
HK G36K and C
Steyr AUG, in 5.56mm and 9mm

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it probably covers most UK issued weapons.

If you want to get an exhaustive list, take an airsoft gun and a notepad and go for a walk in each force area. ;)

that's how I got my list ;)

also the weapons used varies from constabulary to constabulary (I think :| )

[MolliG]

... also the weapons used varies from constabulary to constabulary (I think :| )
From what T42 has said, I'm pretty sure that each Police force can choose and purchase any weapon (within reason) but they must conform to Home Office regulations (Ammo, etc.).

:)

[MolliG]

By the way hase someone exactly informations or photos about the AUG in UK Police Forces?
I doubt there will be any good photos. There was a really good programme on ages ago following an ARV equipped with AUG carbines (and S&W Autos) for a part of it, but it's very unlikely you'll see it :|. But from reading various bits it seems the AUG is pretty popular here. :)

[mack pl]

Polish police using-P64,and P83 9x18 Makarow,Glock17,Glock19,and Walther P99 9x19mm.Regards.

[Gringo]

By the way hase someone exactly informations or photos about the AUG in UK Police Forces?
I doubt there will be any good photos. There was a really good programme on ages ago following an ARV equipped with AUG carbines (and S&W Autos) for a part of it, but it's very unlikely you'll see it :|. But from reading various bits it seems the AUG is pretty popular here. :)

yeah, it seems the Police have changed to Bling Bling, with their Silver plated pistols.

[MaDuce]

Amercian Police have alota Smith & Wesson.

[martinexsquaddie]

MOd plod use SA80 I don't think they were given the option :(
but then they don't get them muddy so they will work fine rofl.

[TR]

UK Police Weaponry... tough to come by as I have been researching a lot of related topics. Thus far from published sources and internet websites (often from the actual police agencies own site) I have dug up some info, some of which is dated to sources in the late 80's and early 90's and some contemporary info.

London Metroplitan Police: S&W Model 10 M&P (350 Purchased In 1984), S&W Model 36 Chief's Special & Walther PP

* SO19 Force Firearms Branch: Glock Model 17, H&K MP-5 Series

Manchester Police Department: Glock Model 17

Notthingham Police Department: Walther P-99 & H&K MP-5SA


I have some additional information, Germany is a bit more detailed but it is a mix of past and present sources.

Baden Wurttemberg State Police: H&K P2000, Pistole P7 (H&K P7) & Walther P-5

Bavaria State Police: Pistole P7 (H&K P7)

Bereitschaftpolizei: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P-225), SIG SP47/8

Berlin Police Department: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225), Pistole 11 (H&K 4)

Bundesbahnpolizei (Federal Railway Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Bundesgrenzschutz: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225), SIG SP47/8, SIG Sauer P228, Walther P4 (6,500 models, many sold off in 1987) & H&K MP-5

Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Investigatory Police): Pistole, 6 (SIG Sauer P225), Pistole 7 (H&K P7), SIG Sauer P228

Bundespostpolizei (Federal Postal Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Bundeszollpolizei (Federal Customs Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

* Zentrale Unterstützungseinheit Zoll (ZUZ) (Central Customs Supporting Unit): Pistole 8, H&K MP-5, H&K G-3SG1

Bremen State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Hansestadt-Hamburg State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Hessen State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Landespolizei: Walther P5

Lower Saxony State Police: P2 (Walther PP), Pistole 7 (H&K P7)

North Rhine-Westphalia State Police: FN Mle 35, Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Saarland State Police: Pistole 9 (H&K P9S)

Schleswig-Holstein State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)


I have some information on Israel as well:

Quantities of the S&W Model 27 were sold to the Israeli Police in 1978 as well as the S&W Model 10 in 1979 and even small quantities of the S&W Model 29 in 44 Magnum. Samples of the S&W Model 59 were also sold to the Israeli Police during this same period. Prior to the adption of the Jericho the FN Mark III High Power was uniformly adopted across Israeli Police Officers as their sidearm. Currently the Jericho Model 941 series of handguns are very popular in the police forces of Israel. Some 10,000 US M1 and M2 carbines were delivered to the country and in the past have been popular with the Civil Defense School Guards as well as law enforcement officers. Some Israeli Police Officers have been sighted with Mossberg Model 695 bolt action shotguns, these are used in urban sniping roles. The AKM is known to be used in some front line military units, but it is also sometimes encountered in the hands of law enforcement agencies as well.

Magav (Border Guard) The Israeli border guard has a special unit called YAMAS and have their own Counter Terrorist Group, these idividuals operate within disputed regions of the border with Palestine. They are known to use the Jericho Model 941 series of handguns as well as the Colt Commando submachine-gun.

Mista'Aravim
Members of Mista'Aravim carry small weapons like the Micro-Uzis that are easily concealed and carried. Short-barreled M-16's are carried when firepower is more crucial than concealability.

Ya'Ma'M
Weapons in their arsenal include the Glock Model 17, the Jericho Model 941 is also encountered as well as Mini-Uzis, and the IMI GALAT'Z sniper rifle.

Yasam
Weapons in their arsenal include the Jerico series of pistols and Magal submachinegun

And finally osme info on Australia but this is limited to their SWAT style units not their general officer on the street but I will include it here.

Western Australian Tactical Response Group
Beretta 92FS
H&K MP-5D
H&K G41 H&K G3
M-16A2
H&K 23E
M-203

Queensland Special Emergency Response Team
H&K USP
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD3
CAR-15

Victorian Special Operations Group
Beretta 92FS
H&K USP
SIG P226
H&K MP-5
F88
M-16A2
H&K PSG-1
Remington Model 700
Benelli Super 90

Northern Territory Territory Response Group
H&K USP
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD2

Tasmanian Special Operations Group
Browning Hi-Power
Glock 17
H&K USP
Sig P226
Sig P228
H&K MP-5A3
F88
Sig 550
Sig 551
Winchester Defender

New South Wales State Protection Group
Glock 17
H&K MP-5A1
MP-5SD6
Uzi
CAR-15
M-16A2
Sig 551
AI PM
H&K PSG-1
Mauser SP66
Remington Model 700
Remington 870

South Australian Special Tasks and Rescue Division
H&K USP
Sig P226
Sig P228
H&K MP-5A3
CAR-15
M-16A2
H&K PSG-1

Australian Capital Territory Special Operations Team
Glock 17
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD3


If the above info helps so much the better, if you find more I'd be interested to know myself.


Later,


TR

[Glock]

When I was in london i saw Police Man (not SO19) armed with Glock 17. And out from a list the London Police got also some Gllock19.
Greatings Leo

[BiZ]

UK Police Weaponry... tough to come by as I have been researching a lot of related topics. Thus far from published sources and internet websites (often from the actual police agencies own site) I have dug up some info, some of which is dated to sources in the late 80's and early 90's and some contemporary info.

London Metroplitan Police: S&W Model 10 M&P (350 Purchased In 1984), S&W Model 36 Chief's Special & Walther PP

* SO19 Force Firearms Branch: Glock Model 17, H&K MP-5 Series

Manchester Police Department: Glock Model 17

Notthingham Police Department: Walther P-99 & H&K MP-5SA


I have some additional information, Germany is a bit more detailed but it is a mix of past and present sources.

Baden Wurttemberg State Police: H&K P2000, Pistole P7 (H&K P7) & Walther P-5

Bavaria State Police: Pistole P7 (H&K P7)

Bereitschaftpolizei: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P-225), SIG SP47/8

Berlin Police Department: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225), Pistole 11 (H&K 4)

Bundesbahnpolizei (Federal Railway Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Bundesgrenzschutz: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225), SIG SP47/8, SIG Sauer P228, Walther P4 (6,500 models, many sold off in 1987) & H&K MP-5

Bundeskriminalamt (Federal Criminal Investigatory Police): Pistole, 6 (SIG Sauer P225), Pistole 7 (H&K P7), SIG Sauer P228

Bundespostpolizei (Federal Postal Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Bundeszollpolizei (Federal Customs Police): Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

* Zentrale Unterstützungseinheit Zoll (ZUZ) (Central Customs Supporting Unit): Pistole 8, H&K MP-5, H&K G-3SG1

Bremen State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Hansestadt-Hamburg State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Hessen State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Landespolizei: Walther P5

Lower Saxony State Police: P2 (Walther PP), Pistole 7 (H&K P7)

North Rhine-Westphalia State Police: FN Mle 35, Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)

Saarland State Police: Pistole 9 (H&K P9S)

Schleswig-Holstein State Police: Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)


I have some information on Israel as well:

Quantities of the S&W Model 27 were sold to the Israeli Police in 1978 as well as the S&W Model 10 in 1979 and even small quantities of the S&W Model 29 in 44 Magnum. Samples of the S&W Model 59 were also sold to the Israeli Police during this same period. Prior to the adption of the Jericho the FN Mark III High Power was uniformly adopted across Israeli Police Officers as their sidearm. Currently the Jericho Model 941 series of handguns are very popular in the police forces of Israel. Some 10,000 US M1 and M2 carbines were delivered to the country and in the past have been popular with the Civil Defense School Guards as well as law enforcement officers. Some Israeli Police Officers have been sighted with Mossberg Model 695 bolt action shotguns, these are used in urban sniping roles. The AKM is known to be used in some front line military units, but it is also sometimes encountered in the hands of law enforcement agencies as well.

Magav (Border Guard) The Israeli border guard has a special unit called YAMAS and have their own Counter Terrorist Group, these idividuals operate within disputed regions of the border with Palestine. They are known to use the Jericho Model 941 series of handguns as well as the Colt Commando submachine-gun.

Mista'Aravim
Members of Mista'Aravim carry small weapons like the Micro-Uzis that are easily concealed and carried. Short-barreled M-16's are carried when firepower is more crucial than concealability.

Ya'Ma'M
Weapons in their arsenal include the Glock Model 17, the Jericho Model 941 is also encountered as well as Mini-Uzis, and the IMI GALAT'Z sniper rifle.

Yasam
Weapons in their arsenal include the Jerico series of pistols and Magal submachinegun

And finally osme info on Australia but this is limited to their SWAT style units not their general officer on the street but I will include it here.

Western Australian Tactical Response Group
Beretta 92FS
H&K MP-5D
H&K G41 H&K G3
M-16A2
H&K 23E
M-203

Queensland Special Emergency Response Team
H&K USP
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD3
CAR-15

Victorian Special Operations Group
Beretta 92FS
H&K USP
SIG P226
H&K MP-5
F88
M-16A2
H&K PSG-1
Remington Model 700
Benelli Super 90

Northern Territory Territory Response Group
H&K USP
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD2

Tasmanian Special Operations Group
Browning Hi-Power
Glock 17
H&K USP
Sig P226
Sig P228
H&K MP-5A3
F88
Sig 550
Sig 551
Winchester Defender

New South Wales State Protection Group
Glock 17
H&K MP-5A1
MP-5SD6
Uzi
CAR-15
M-16A2
Sig 551
AI PM
H&K PSG-1
Mauser SP66
Remington Model 700
Remington 870

South Australian Special Tasks and Rescue Division
H&K USP
Sig P226
Sig P228
H&K MP-5A3
CAR-15
M-16A2
H&K PSG-1

Australian Capital Territory Special Operations Team
Glock 17
H&K MP-5A3
MP-5SD3


If the above info helps so much the better, if you find more I'd be interested to know myself.


Later,


TR

No offence champ, but most of your info on Australian Tactical Police units is either completely wrong or seriously outdated.
NSW Police SPG TOU into if waaaaay off the mark in all but a couple of instances. Most stuff mentioned hasn't be used/issued for over 15 years etc.
When I get some free time I'll knock something up for you if you care to PM me about it.

[Glock]

German: The Bundesgrenzschutz GSG) use Glock17 pistols, HK Mp5 submichine Guns and Sig 550/551 Ausult Rifles and the Steyr AUG:

The SWAT Team in Bavaria (SEK) use Glock17, HKP7M13 and MP5, and the AUG.

Israel
All Police Man use the IMI Jericho 641. Some high ranked officers have Glock's.

Ya'Ma'M
Glock 17/19 Mini Uzis, IMI Para Micro Uzis, Colt Commando, Colt M4 (CAR-15A2), IMI Galtz and Steyr SSG69.

Australia:

Glock 17 general service. In use with Federal Police (standard sidearm 2000-), Northern Territory Police (standard sidearm 1996

Glock 22 general service. In use with Queensland Police and NSW(standard sidearm)

Glock 23 general service. In use with Queensland Police, and NSW

Glock 27 limited service. In use with Queensland Police and NSW (concealed carry)

Glock 20 Victoria Police Special Operations Group (SOG) ie: SWAT

HK USP (9mm) used by (Federal Police) Australian Protective Service (APS) Air Marshals

SigSauer P226 Victorian and Tasminian SOG and others



(All Rugers and S&W are Replaced by Glocks! only Victorian Police have still some.

The SOG groups use manly MP-5 and F88 Carabines and some M4A1 and Sig551.


In New Zeeland the Police use manly Glock 17 Pistols. And Mp5 and Colt M4A1 carabines.

[moughoun]

These are used by Irish cop's

Smith & Wesson .38 special, Model 10, K-Frame, 2" Heavy Barrel Revolver.

Smith & Wesson .38 special, Model 10, K-Frame, 4" Heavy Barrel Revolver.

Smith & Wesson .38 special, Model 36, J-Frame, Revolver.

Sig Sauer P226 9mm Para, Double Action Only Pistol.

Uzi 9mm Para Sub Machine-Gun

The following weapons are also used by An Garda Síochána, but are on issue to Specialised Units only:

Sig Sauer P226 9mm Para, Double Action/Single Action Pistol.

Benelli 12 Gauge Shotgun M3Tsuper90.

Heckler & Koch Rifle 33E 5.56mm.

Steyr Sniper Rifle Model SSG POLICE .308 Win.

[-Max2-]

In Belgium, the police use Glock 17/19s, Browning High-Powers and .38 Special revolvers.

When they need more firepower, they use FN Uzis, H&K MP5s or Steyr AUGs 9mm.

Special units have FN P90s, H&K MP5s, shotguns, Accuracy International AWP, and a lot more...

[Gringo]

When I was in london i saw Police Man (not SO19) armed with Glock 17. And out from a list the London Police got also some Gllock19.
Greatings Leo

Same here, he was guarding No. 10

[DeltaWhisky58]

I should explain my last post. It is possible to find open source information about the weapons used by some UK police forces, but not all.
CX20 knows a lot, and I've learned much from reading his posts, but even he is unlikely to be able to reel off each force's issue pistol, carbine etc.

On a general level though:
Glock 17
Browning Hi-Power
Sig-Sauer P-226
Beretta 92F(S?)
Walther P99
HK MP5SF
HK 53
HK G36K and C
Steyr AUG, in 5.56mm and 9mm

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it probably covers most UK issued weapons.

If you want to get an exhaustive list, take an airsoft gun and a notepad and go for a walk in each force area. ;)

I'm not sure about the Browning 9mm any more - more info, and I'm pretty certain no-one uses the S&W Model 10 either?

The H&K HK93 is also in use as are several variants of the G3.
Some police forces use sniper rifles which are derivatives of civvy hunting rifles, mostly in .308 Win (7.62x51mm), but several forces use the .243Win.

At least one force (Beds) Use stainless S&W pistols.

[TR]

No offence champ, but most of your info on Australian Tactical Police units is either completely wrong or seriously outdated. NSW Police SPG TOU into if waaaaay off the mark in all but a couple of instances. Most stuff mentioned hasn't be used/issued for over 15 years etc. When I get some free time I'll knock something up for you if you care to PM me about it.

No offense taken BiZ... this sort of information is hard to come, many times the published sources are several years old to begin with so that doesn't help. Granted being here in the States is not a big help when researching Australian law enforcement trends either.

If you have info otherwise I'd love to see it.

Later


TR

[Airborneranger4israel]

can we get a picture of each weapon please?

[BOB1]

I would say 99 % can be found here:

http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

and other similar sites.

[catalyst]

I am a student of policing and can bring some insight into the reasons that the Victorian Police in Australia have not 'upgraded' to the glock rage of firearms froim 347(i think) S&W revolvers.

Mainly it stems from the evidence that is abound about police when placed in a situation that they need to fire their weapon, will fire as much as they can. Police will normally not shoot a offender the first time and cease firing, instead they will fire off the clip or wheel of rounds. This is because the only times police use firearms on General Duties will be in a life and death situation. Thus they will be in a panic, a rush and in immediate need. Thus firing off all the rounds they have. That is not saying they will reload and keep firing, but will immediately fire all they got in the weapon.

As for SWAT types forces, the choice in VicPol is a 'police' model of the F88, it is black and so on, not green. And some older M16A2s. I am yet to hear of the M4 being used as they are apparently not needed in a SWAT context. Being a 5.56mm and not the complete compact weapon, instead a hybrid of a rifle and a SMG. Thus why do the police need a weapon that is not role specific.

Hope that helps a bit.

VicPol is also trialing Tazers, stun guns and 'net' guns, all test performed on real SOG volunteers! what harry hard asses. :cantbeli:

[Kruglerek]

someone was asking for photos ;)
I put only photos of not so common guns in United Kingdom and Australia ;)

United Kingdom:

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/2743177.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE1FCAFF2DEC2245BB17DEADF10CFDD4C1
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/2743109.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DE1FCAFF2DEC2245BB2D3C515A65D6DBFF
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/1705414.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEA9BF0AF4A789CF80BEF39E2A3B46916C
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/2751037.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEFF3A2960974A18B9210DC22F4A6BD60C

Australia:
http://pro.corbis.com/images/0000316534-003.jpg?size=67&uid={6a16c057-2a6d-411c-b939-710f62069b91}
http://cache.*****images.com/comp/1693703.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DEC3D51BC7362C3C45E301E71702CA443C
http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images2/lores/12588338.jpg
http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images2/lores/11811101.jpg


State Protection Group:
http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images2/lores/11414773.jpg
http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images/lores/08475179.jpg
[/img]

[Glock]

In Belgium, the police use Glock 17/19s, Browning High-Powers and .38 Special revolvers.

When they need more firepower, they use FN Uzis, H&K MP5s or Steyr AUGs 9mm.

Special units have FN P90s, H&K MP5s, shotguns, Accuracy International AWP, and a lot more...

Did some one have a picture of a 9mm AUG in Belgium? Are they are using green or blauck AUG's?

Greatings from Vienna

[-Max2-]

Did some one have a picture of a 9mm AUG in Belgium? Are they are using green or blauck AUG's?

They use the black one. For the pics, i have only two bad quality pics from a newspaper but i have no scanner... :(

Btw, i have handled a AUG 9mm (not loaded of course ;)) during a Police Open Days two years ago. Cool gun... :)

[TR]

Some of the more common handguns listed from my info

Glock Model 17
http://www.wapahani.com/glock17.jpg

H&K P2000
http://handguns.g00net.org/HK/HK-p2000_.jpg

Jericho 941 Series
http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/handguns/jericho/jericho-familty.gif

Pistole 7 (H&K P7)
http://www.wapahani.com/imageIFG.JPG

Pistole 6 (SIG Sauer P225)
http://www.remtek.com/arms/sig/model/225/225m.gif

Pistole 11 (H&K HK4)
http://www.chris.cc/hkp7/hk4/hk4.gif

Walther P-5
http://www.wapahani.com/walther%20p5.jpg

Walther P-99
http://www.wapahani.com/p99.jpg

[Luckystiff]

I am a Deputy Sheriff in the US and am my departments Armorer / Range Master. We issue the Beretta 96 in .40 S&W as does two of the other three LE agencies in my County. BUT our detectives can purchase thier own handgun and carry it if I will sign off on it. I have one NARC using a Springfield Armory XD40. In the US you will find just about every type of handgun in use with some agency some where.

Now on the Beretta comment: A lot of departments use the Beretta but most have opted for the 96 over the 92. It is true that many departments have gone to the glock and I would not mind seeing my department do the same. But the Beretta is still very populare. Smith & Wesson has all but lost the LE market here.


Posted by 3RAR
I am a student of policing and can bring some insight into the reasons that the Victorian Police in Australia have not 'upgraded' to the glock rage of firearms froim 347(i think) S&W revolvers.

Its a .357 and I would bet money that they are shooting .38 Special +P's not full .357 Mags out of them.


Mainly it stems from the evidence that is abound about police when placed in a situation that they need to fire their weapon, will fire as much as they can. Police will normally not shoot a offender the first time and cease firing, instead they will fire off the clip or wheel of rounds. This is because the only times police use firearms on General Duties will be in a life and death situation. Thus they will be in a panic, a rush and in immediate need. Thus firing off all the rounds they have. That is not saying they will reload and keep firing, but will immediately fire all they got in the weapon.
:roll:

Son you need to study some more. :bash:

First it is a MAGAZINE not a CLIP. **** that up around the wrong Range Master and you will do pushups for days. Second, Officers who "fire as much as they can" are not trained properly and have no discipline in the use of force. The last three out of four shootings my guys have been in have been 1 to 3 round engagements that ended with solid hits to center mass on the bad guys. The last one was over 40 rounds fired by two Deputes using three different guns including 28 rounds out of an M4 carbine. This was done to disable the suspects vehicle. All 28 rounds were accounted for in the drivers side front tire and drivers door. The other rounds fired were either IN the passenger or through the rear of the drivers seat. This was after the bud guys ambushed my Deputies with a .357 mag S&W and a TEC-9.

Train as you fight, fight as you train.

[TR]

Its a .357 and I would bet money that they are shooting .38 Special +P's not full .357 Mags out of them.

Pretty common, that's how I learned to shoot actually growing up as a kid in the 70's. My father was a ISP Detective who taught my brother and I to shoot with his 4.0 inch S&W Model 66... we started out with 38 Special Wadcutters then moved up to 38 Special loads and up to 38 Special +P rounds before moving up to 357 Magnum loads and finally full pressure loads over time.

A pic of the gun below:
http://www.wapahani.com/106_06061.jpg


Until Later

TR

[catalyst]

TR, that pistol is very similiar but from what i remember, the VicPol use a longer barrel.

Secondly, LUCKY STIFF, you seem to see policing in Australia as the same as policing in the USA. The diferences are very different. One of my teachers is a ex-Carolina PD training academy director. She constantly says how in the USA officers will take a firearm out of the holster. In Australia and VicPol in particular, if a weapon is taken from the holster, a weapon should be fired.

It cannot be assumed from officers firing excess rounds being fired should be a consequence of poor training. Does that mean the US troops in Vietnam who fired in excess of 100,000 rounds per confirmed kill we poorly trained? Instead VicPol studies have shown that a firearm is the very last resort when a officers life is in immediate danger or the public is in a similiar position. Therefor the firing of a firearm can only be justified as the last resort.

Just because you USA John Wayne cops wanna police your country in such a way, dont bring your values upon our policing styles here! My father as a ex cop only un holstered his firearm twice in theyears of hisvice....There was no need to do so in the whole time as a constable of the law.

AS for the M4s in NSW SPG use.....never seen those images before.

[Luckystiff]

Okay lets break this down.


Does that mean the US troops in Vietnam who fired in excess of 100,000 rounds per confirmed kill we poorly trained?

YES. That is an excellent example of poor training leading to low hit probability. Our troops during Vietnam were very poorly trained. They were conscripts for the most part not a professional Army. They were issued M16’s and told that the rifle was self cleaning so they did not have to clean it. The basic infantry tactics stressed “Spray and pray” over well aimed shots. Why do you think the M16A2 is burst fire not full auto? You need to study a little more on this subject as well. A great book to read on this and just the whole subject of deadly force training is called On Killing. I do not remember the author but he is a retired LT. Col. in the Marines. He took the lid off of the subject for me.



Secondly, LUCKY STIFF, you seem to see policing in Australia as the same as policing in the USA.

You were speaking for all of Law Enforcement when you made your uneducated unexperienced statement about the use of firearms by Law Enforcement. Next time you should be more clear that you are refering to poorly trained undisiplined Australian Cops (No insult intended to any and all Australian LEO's. This is satire).


In Australia and VicPol in particular, if a weapon is taken from the holster, a weapon should be fired.

Okay, so as you're drawing your handgun from the holster and taking aim, they to teach you guys to aim, the bad guy drops his weapon and is no longer a threat you should shoot him? I mean the gun is out of the holster after all and if it comes out you've got to shoot right?


The diferences are very different. :roll:

So I take it there is a difference?


It cannot be assumed from officers firing excess rounds being fired should be a consequence of poor training.

Yes I can. Peace Officers are civil authority not the military. We are civily and criminally liable for every round that we fire. Firing excessive rounds IS excessive force and can not be allowed or tolerated in any Law Enforcement Agency. It is akin to hitting a suspect with a batton when he is down and not resisting. You only use what force is NECESSARY.


Just because you USA John Wayne cops wanna police your country in such a way, dont bring your values upon our policing styles here!

One of my teachers is a ex-Carolina PD training academy director

Sounds like your country already has. I suggest you listen to her, you may live longer. With all due respect to your father and his service to your country, his time has past. The world and Austrailia is a different place now. Antiquated ideas like never drawing your firearm until it is too late will only get cops killed.

[Michael RVR]

As for SWAT types forces, the choice in VicPol is a 'police' model of the F88, it is black and so on, not green. And some older M16A2s. I am yet to hear of the M4 being used as they are apparently not needed in a SWAT context.

I'm not too sure if thats accurate, last time i was up doing sneaker ranges a class of new SOG guys was up there, and they were using M-4's of some description (had a vertical foregrip, we were told to keep apart so i didnt' get to check them out properly).

Thought just came to me ;)

[BiZ]

Re: Police use of the M4
NSW Police SPG TOU have been using the M-4 for some time now.
VicPol SOG have trialled and begun issuing the M-4 in the past 6 months or so. Not mission specific you say? Why would one elect to carry an M-16A2 is a CQB Police environment when you could take an M4?
VicPOl SOG issue the F-88 simply because they have always had a high percentage of members being ex Army or Reserves (Commandoes) and they heavily influence the issuing of gear....that and they get them cheaper too.
I've argued with 'soggies' before over the steyr vs M16 type battle before. Quite simple........out of 8 State Tactical Police teams, only 2 issue the F88 (Victorian and Northern terriroty...both whose tactical membership is heavily influenced by serving/ex Army members)....the other 6 issue CAR-16/M4 types. I know which type I'd rather.... and these days it seems sense has prevailed and VicPol have too. :D

VicPol SOG also use the "green" F-88 and not only the black F-88C.

Simple "real world" reason why Victorian Police still use the S&W .38? = Money. Nothing more or less. They will not spend the money on issuing new general service weapons but do spend money on :initiatives" and 'special projects" like SMART cars etc. Go figure.

Re: Posted photos, supposed SPG officers in AusCam are actually Federal Police SRS (formally SOT) with simmunition weapons during an excercise earlier this year in Canberra.
Top photo with guys in caps, Tasmania Police SOG during the Port Arther massacre if my mememory serves me correctly.

[Ian H]

IIRC VicPol issue the S+W Model 10 in .38 special, not a .357 weapon.
Forget if its been mentioned, but their SOG issue the USP, and there has been some talk of the rest of the force getting this as well but I don't know if this will happen.

[catalyst]

Having recenly meet the range controllers and firearm instructors at the VicPol academy. It is suprising why many here still continue to believe that VicPol command has choosen the glock over current issue but have not ordered the weapon.

VicPol has recently evaluated its firearm choice but made the choice to continue the current issue because of the reliability, hit probalbility and costs associated.

A new weapon would need the whole force to be trained, re-equiped and a whole system set up to manage it. But the facts are that the weapon they have does not make a sacrifice to the Glock in either quality or cost.

[BiZ]

Having recenly meet the range controllers and firearm instructors at the VicPol academy. It is suprising why many here still continue to believe that VicPol command has choosen the glock over current issue but have not ordered the weapon.

VicPol has recently evaluated its firearm choice but made the choice to continue the current issue because of the reliability, hit probalbility and costs associated.

A new weapon would need the whole force to be trained, re-equiped and a whole system set up to manage it. But the facts are that the weapon they have does not make a sacrifice to the Glock in either quality or cost.

NSW has over 14,000 officers and made the transition from S&W to Glock. Every other state has done so as well.....all except Victoria.

It is not because the Smith and Wesson is a great weapon and out performs an auto pistol, it's simply because VicPol cannot aquire and justify the cost for issuing the weapon, especially since VicPol already has the highest rate of Police involved shootings then all the other states put together.
Lack of money and a bad public image = no auto pistols. Simple.
It is not because VicPol are smart and the S&W is a great weapon.

You're very green 3RAR and seem to be dribbling all the nonsense all new recruits dribble when pumped full of stuff, echoing the infalibility of your new organisation. I'm not having a dig ta you, I just want you to be aware that no-one organistion does things simply because it is the "best ever" way, nor do they issue things because they are the best. VicPol have many classic examples of using outdated stuff, but putting a spin on it so members ramble on about why they use "it" because it's better than any 'new" stuff other states have.

WorkCover investigations into the Cresent Head shooting in NSW years ago lead to NSW changing to Glocks over S&Ws. The incident resulted in 2 officers being shot dead while reloading their speed loaders. Tell their families and many others that a .38 revolver is a far better modern Policing weapon then any other used in Australia (eg USP and Glock) that isn't outrformed by a glock etc.


Simple fact, VicPol always run "trials"....it's what they do best. They will not issue anything to replace the S&W for many years.

[catalyst]

and i assume biz u r some high speed individual are you?

[Luckystiff]

Son, we are all high speed compaired to you.

You need to ask questions now not smart off. You have a unique opertunity to learn. I recommend you pay attention.

The revolver is out dated technology by at least 20 years. Your agency is telling you that they are keeping it because it is the best. If this is true then why has EVERY major Law Enforcement agency in the world gone to an auto loader? The reason that they are telling you that the S&W is the best is so that you will have confidence in your equipment. Telling a cop that his equipment is **** will only serve to give the officer apprehention about using it on the street. The bad guys WILL detect this through your body language. This has and will, at worst, get you hurt at best it will keep you from pushing the envelope.

One of the first lessons I was taught by my old Range Master when I became a Range Master was this: No matter how bad the shooter is, he must leave the range feeling confident in his weapon, ammo and his skills to use them. Without this confidence he can not perform to the level that is needed to survive. Its about believing your own bull**** and projecting that to others. If you believe that your a badass it is easy to convince others that you are as well. I hope this makes sence to you.

[Michael RVR]

I still dont know about that, given the threats vicpol is likely to face, do they really need more than a revolver?

Its true that they dont jam, are accurate, their only downside is a low ammunition capacity, and will usually fire if they're dirty also.

I think you're being a little harsh. ;)

[Luckystiff]

Yes I am being harsh. He keeps talking out his ass.

Revolvers have a rep for being more reliable than auto pistols when in reality modern autos are more reliable, more accurate and easier to reload. Back in the early part of the last century the auto was hampered by poor and inconsistent ammo. That is not the case today and as such the auto has come into its own.

I know of only one incident where one of my guys gun failed during a shooting. It was approx. 15 years ago when we could carry anything we wanted. I had a Sgt. carrying a S&W model 686 .357 mag. He went to a call of a man chasing a woman around a house with a large knife. He arrives and the bad guy comes at him with the knife. He draws and fires one round striking the subject in the shoulder. The subject stops, looks at his shoulder and then looks back at the Sgt. and starts toward him again with the knife. The Sgt. try’s to fire a second round but the revolver is locked up. He bluffs the bad guy into giving up. When I inspected the revolver I found that the ejector had backed out and had locked up the cylinder. Malfunctions can happen to any piece of machinery. At this point in history revolvers have absolutely no advantages over the auto pistol.

[BiZ]

and i assume biz u r some high speed individual are you?

I appologise if I sounded harsh 3RAR, but you us a namesake for a unit in which you do not serve, one that I have spent time with, and talk about VicPol as if they are the best Police Force going around, which they ceratinly are not, nor are VicPol SOG the premier PTG in Australia, although they claim to be.

As for 'high speed', my letterbox is higher speed than most here..... and the whole term "high speed" is dodgy anyway.... what ****head would ever refer to themselves (without laughing) as being "high speed".... yanks I can understand....but no-one else.

[catalyst]

this F88 looks pretty black 2 me.

http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images/lores/05006046.jpg

most SOG personal equipment is purchased privately from a firm called platypus outdoors.
Went in a few weeks ago and saw the head of SOG talking wif the owner.
www.platypusoutdoors.com.au

[Smintjes]

Belgian State Security ("Staatsveiligheid" or "Sûreté de l'état") (intelligence and VIP Close Protection):

Intelligence: Jericho 941 (decocker) and older agents are allowed to keep their S&W .38's.

Surveillance units: Jericho 941, soon to be replaced by Glock 26

Close Protection Unit: Glock 17, Steyr AUG 9mm, FN P90

[Michael RVR]

Training time aside, is there any advantage in using a 9mm AUG as opposed to something thats designed for the purpose, say an MP-5 ?

I suppose being locally made also makes an impact, but is that all it is?

[Gringo]

Training time aside, is there any advantage in using a 9mm AUG as opposed to something thats designed for the purpose, say an MP-5 ?

Well the 9mm AUG would have the similar advantages in which a bullpup has over a convetional rifle. The 9mm AUG would have a longer barrel, and shorter overall.

[BiZ]

this F88 looks pretty black 2 me.

http://www.archive.newspix.com.au/photolib/images/lores/05006046.jpg

most SOG personal equipment is purchased privately from a firm called platypus outdoors.
Went in a few weeks ago and saw the head of SOG talking wif the owner.
www.platypusoutdoors.com.au

To those other who may have been reffering to this pic, they are not 9mm AUGs, they are 5.56mm.

For 3RAR, the first officer's AUG is stock standard OG mate. Check the full size photos from that exercise.

[ArtofPain]

About Russian MVD (police) forces:
most of personnel have PM (Makarov) or PMM (Makarov modified) pistols.
There are also small amount of RG-92 revolvers and
APS and PSM pistols.
I'll try to place pics here.
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg23-e.htm
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg22-e.htm

[Mandinga]

Hi!. News from LatinAmerica.
Uruguayan Police are using S&W .38 Sp. 4" barrel revolvers, but are being slowly replaced by HK USP pistols. First the officers and sergeants. Some Glock 17 with 15 bullets magazines are in use too, but in reduced number. I suppose they are from a evaluation pack.
At middles 90' begin a "police update program", were buyed kevlar vests, new vehicles, and, however new weapons and accesories. To this point the police weapons used to be:

- SMG Star Z63, 9mm. Spain
- SMG HK MP5 A1/A2, 9mm. Semi-Full Auto selector. (only special groups)
- Revolver S&W .38Sp 4" and 6" barrel (2" for intelligency and other undercovers)
- Revolver Taurus (model unknown) .38Sp reinforced 4" barrel. Brazil
- Pistol Browning HP, 9mm single action, Argentina (only officers and sergeants)
- Pistol Star M30, 9mm, 15 shot, double action, Spain (only special groups)
- Shotgun, Remington 870, 4 shot tubular magazine
- Sniper, Remington 700, 7,62x51mm
- Sniper, SIG 970, 7,62x51mm

Some of these "wonders" still in use, but the SMG Star Z63 has been replaced totally by the HK MP5 A3/A4 with fire selector Safe-Single-2 Shot Burst-Auto. There exist 3 HK MP5 SD3 in the special groups, some MP5 K, and a reduced number of PSG1 sniper rifle. All the officers and sergeants have received the pistols USP or Glock17, and their former pistols are being distributed between the "troop". The undercover sections (intelligency, investigations, etc.) have some freedom for choice, but are using IMI Jericho or HK compact pistols in undetermined number. The special groups have received some SIG 552-553 for bank convoy's escort.

[Micke]

In New Zealand the Police use manly Glock 17 Pistols. And Mp5 and Colt M4A1 carabines.
Most cops I've seen have had Sig Sauer P226 pistols, just like the army.
And they use Diemaco C8s, not M4s. I saw one tactical pig on the news that had a C8CT. (CT= Custom Tactical. I think thats what it stands for) Dunno if these have been limited to only semi-automatic or not but usually the cop's guns are for some reason.
And also I've seen snipers with what looked like Accuracy Int AWs.

But they're still just cops no matter what weapons they have. p-)

[Micke]

I saw on the news before when they took that record ****en huge cannabis plantation in Australia the cops raiding it wore auscam and were armed with M16A1s. And this was from early this year.
Was the M16 used cause it was a rather open area? Or are the poor guys just poorly equipped?

[BiZ]

I saw on the news before when they took that record f*** huge cannabis plantation in Australia the cops raiding it wore auscam and were armed with M16A1s. And this was from early this year.
Was the M16 used cause it was a rather open area? Or are the poor guys just poorly equipped?

What state are you reffering to champ?

If you're reffering to the one out west of NSW earleier this year the SPG weren't using M16A1's...... that I can certainly gurantee. None in the armoury being one reason.....
SPSU teams will use M16A2's for longer range open work such as bush insertions etc.