View Full Version : EU to fingerprint everyone who enters and leaves the union
The surveillance of travelers is a "weak link" in the EU strategy, Frattini said.
The Commissioner proposes that the three already existing EU databases should be merged, the so called SIS, VIS, and Eurodac. They include information about wanted persons, visa holders, and asylum seekers in all EU countries.
The Commission is tasked by the EU governments to investigate such a merger. It would mean that EU would setup a database containing the fingerprints of all persons entering and leaving EU, motivated by the fight against terrorism and organized crime.
(Swedish source through TT)
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article1218339.ab
A different source:
"The European Commission is already working on producing a central database of every EU citizen's fingerprints. It is expected to be up and running at the end of next year. Previously it was announced that if you want an EU passport from 2009 you will have to be fingerprinted, including children as young as 6."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1522577.ece
There is no way in hell I'm handing over my fingerprints to some pinkocommie eurocrats (of which some are ex-Stasi agents) down in Central Europe. If I'm a suspect of a crime, show probable cause and arrest me and you'll have no problems getting my fingerprints. But I have no criminal background that would motivate why my fingerprints or DNA should be registered, the same goes for the most of the other 500 million citizens living here.
Should this proposal become accepted I will seriously contemplate to have my fingerprints professionally removed with acid or similar.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 08:30 AM
You are a funny guy. :)
Kitsune
11-11-2007, 08:30 AM
@Thor:
The US is demanding the same for some time now. So you at least have the choice to hand over your fingerprints to some American bureaucrats instead - good news: only comparably few of those have been Stasi agents in the past. (On second thought: isn't it somehow fitting to hand ones pinky to some pinkocommie guy?)
I for myself am glad that so far nobody here in Germany insists on cramping the streets full with cameras like in Britain. I don't like the fingerprinting stuff either but it is preferable to being watched by big brother all the time...
You are a funny guy. :)
You're commie joke. An "useful idiot".
The US is demanding the same for some time now.
They already have mine. That's different since a) I'm a foreigner entering their country b) In a 100:1 I'd rather have the US administration have my fingerprints than the anti-democrat EU ****s here. They're not getting it, period.
...just wait for the cameras....in my part of the world our pollies have quoted the English model as a justification to install a comprehensive city surveillance system.
Time to re-read George Orwell...
Evolv5
11-11-2007, 08:36 AM
I think it's a good idea to take the finger prints of every "foreigner" who enters the EU. I mean, if the US does it, so can we. However, maybe the finger prints of aslyum seekers should be removed after a couple years of legel citizenship (once they've become naturalized).
Aren't finger prints part of the bio-metric passports though?
Weasel
11-11-2007, 08:37 AM
@Thor:
The US is demanding the same for some time now. So you at least have the choice to hand over your fingerprints to some American bureaucrats instead - good news: only comparably few of those have been Stasi agents in the past. (On second thought: isn't it somehow fitting to hand ones pinky to some pinkocommie guy?)
I for myself am glad that so far nobody here in Germany insists on cramping the streets full with cameras like in Britain. I don't like the fingerprinting stuff either but it is preferable to being watched by big brother all the time...
China will do the same from the end of this year on. And if you order a new passport in Germany you have to give your fingerprints as well. Thanks to the conservatives (not the "commies").
pirate pete
11-11-2007, 08:43 AM
more reason to demand us brits get out of the EU asap
has anyone managed to figure out how fingerprinting can stop terrorism yet?
they have been parroting that line for so long, but i still cant figure it out...
I think it's a good idea to take the finger prints of every "foreigner" who enters the EU.
It's for everyone who enters and leaves, not just foreigners.
Thanks to the conservatives (not the "commies").
Sorry to inform you that "conservatives" like Merkel, Chirac and many others of the same generation have communist backgrounds. But it's not just the politicians, they're just the faces the public sees.
You're commie joke. An "useful idiot".
Don't become abusive you wimp.
They already have mine. That's different since a) I'm a foreigner entering their country b) In a 100:1 I'd rather have the US administration have my fingerprints than the anti-democrat EU ****s here. They're not getting it, period.
Oh yeah anti-democrat Union, of course. I wonder where our Guantanamo Bay camp is. But that's a different story.
I do oppose the coming regulation, too, but rather because it is a further step into the total surveillance direction, not because I would care about my government have some of my fingerprints since I'm not planning to committ a crime anyway. Are you?
And I'd rather say US secret services would abuse the data they've collected about you than their European office sitter counterparts.
Evolv5
11-11-2007, 08:55 AM
It's for everyone who enters and leaves, not just foreigners.
Sorry to inform you that "conservatives" like Merkel, Chirac and many others of the same generation have communist backgrounds. But it's not just the politicians, they're just the faces the public sees.
That is what the article states. However, I'm saying that it's a good idea to take fingerprints of every foreginer who enters the EU.
Its only a matter of time, afterall these new biometric passports have the cappacity to store fingerprint and retina details.
The brazilians and yanks already do it, and probably others.
Aren't finger prints part of the bio-metric passports though?
Sverige planerar införa fingeravtryck i pass under år 2008. (Sweden plans to integrate fingerprints in passports during 2008)
http://www.swedenabroad.com/Page____55790.aspx
However, I'm saying that it's a good idea to take fingerprints of every foreginer who enters the EU.
Of course.
Don't become abusive you wimp.
You see, you tend to get the same type of response as the one you provide. "Useful idiot" is a historic and quite wellknown mainstream description, if you didn't know.
Wimp? :)
Oh yeah anti-democrat Union, of course. I wonder where our Guantanamo Bay camp is. But that's a different story.
There is definietely a need for a Gitmo here. Though there is need for freedom of speech first.
I do oppose the coming regulation, too, but rather because it is a further step into the total surveillance direction, not because I would care about my government have some of my fingerprints
You contradict yourself.
since I'm not planning to committ a crime anyway. Are you?
No, and neither should I be regarded as one who is.
Seriously, do your homework if you don't know the common arguments used against integrity breeching through databases. Let's not start from scratch in every thread.
And I'd rather say US secret services would abuse the data they've collected about you than their European office sitter counterparts.
:D Yeah, right.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 09:22 AM
Its only a matter of time, afterall these new biometric passports have the cappacity to store fingerprint and retina details.
The brazilians and yanks already do it, and probably others.
I just hope that our politicians don´t try to sell these actions as a part of the war against terror. ´cause nobody believes in this **** anymore.
There is definietely a need for a Gitmo here. Though there is need for freedom of speech first.
Who should be locked up in an European Guantanamo? Why do you regard freedom of speech higher than the right on a fair process, on personal freedom? Isn't that a contradiction?
You contradict yourself.
No I don't. Regardless what it might be, and even if it is my semen I would not care about one particular measure - because that's not the problem. Only measure+measure+measure equals the mess.
No, and neither should I be regarded as one who is.
You see?
Seriously, do your homework if you don't know the common arguments used against integrity breeching through databases. Let's not start from scratch in every thread.
I don't care about your common arguments since I'm able to form a opinion on my own. You just decided to ignore or misinterpret what I've written.
No I don't.
Yes, what you stated in the quoted part contradicts the other parts.
Regardless what it might be, and even if it is my semen I would not care about one particular measure - because that's not the problem. Only measure+measure+measure equals the mess.
No, just like a DDR citizen did not need to worry too much as long as he/she acted in a satisfactory way in the eyes of regime. EU is turning into to an entity worse than DDR in terms of complete registration of personal information, communication, movements, transactions, etc.
Why do you regard freedom of speech higher than the right on a fair process, on personal freedom? Isn't that a contradiction?
Are you joking or are you just ignorant?
A libertarian's beliefs centers around liberty; freedom of speech, due process, personal freedom in general etc.
You see?
I see that you seem to be confused.
I don't care about your common arguments since I'm able to form a opinion on my own.
Not knowing is called ignorance, and what you're stating is that ignorance is bliss. I tend to to disagree with that notion.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 10:13 AM
No, just like a DDR citizen did not need to worry too much as long as he/she acted in a satisfactory way in the eyes of regime. EU is turning into to an entity worse than DDR in terms of complete registration of personal information, communication, movements, transactions, etc.
You are obsessed. rofl
You are obsessed. rofl
Yeah, and that's why I quit here. I had enough discussion with Thor before about his weird imaginations of freedom.
You are obsessed. rofl
You seem to have nothing to say besides posting smileys. You're a waste of space.
Yeah, and that's why I quit here. I had enough discussion with Thor before about his weird imaginations of freedom.
Yes, freedom speech, due process, personal integrity etc. I'm sure it seems like a weird imagination of freedom to you.
You ran out of arguments, or more precisely, you didn't have any to begin with.
Freibier
11-11-2007, 10:20 AM
What a ****ing stupid thread
What a ****ing stupid thread
Same goes for you. I'm tired of having german leftwingers flooding this thread with garbage.
I know this forum has it's fair share of youngsters. If you don't have anything productive to say, go back to watching soap operas, and come back when and if you do.
I'm sure it seems like a weird imagination of freedom to you.
Oh yeah because I live in ze evil dictatorial Germany where we eat small children.
:cantbeli:
You ran out of arguments, or more precisely, you didn't have any to begin with.
Nope, joker. I have a plenty of them and I have mady my point clear before and before and before in a vast amount of other threads and I'm simply too lazy today to give me again that overdose of narrow-minded neocon crap.
Freibier
11-11-2007, 10:26 AM
Same goes for you.
I know this forum has it's fair share of kids. If you don't have anything productive to say, go back to watching soap operas.
Whatever ...
That fingerprinting and spying after citizens stuff has me worried aswell but your stupid rants take the cake, as always
Breakfast in Vegas
11-11-2007, 10:35 AM
Personally they can have my fingerprints if they give me back the 37% of my check they've been collecting over the last few years.
Oh yeah because I live in ze evil dictatorial Germany where we eat small children.
It's a fact you seem to know very little about the very foundations of a democracy.
Nope, joker. I have a plenty of them and I have mady my point clear before and before and before in a vast amount of other threads and I'm simply too lazy today to give me again that overdose of narrow-minded neocon crap.
What arguments? You have not provided any.
Again, german leftwingers do stop flooding this thread with garbage. Produce arguments regarding the subject or stay out.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 10:52 AM
Personally they can have my fingerprints if they give me back the 37% of my check they've been collecting over the last few years.
Enjoying tax privileges, eh? ;-)
It's a fact you seem to know very little about the very foundations of a democracy.
What the **** are you talking about? Again, you completely did not refer to what I've said.
Concerning whether I have an idea of democracy or not I can only say that I'm even studying political science.
What arguments? You have not provided any.
Arguments for what again? In that thread I did not reason anything, I simply ridiculed your fanatic way of getting rid of this topic.
I remember a fierce discussion about the alleged restriction of speech concerning the Holocaust-denial acts, where I've brought a plenty of arguments for my point of view to name only one example.
Again, german leftwingers do stop flooding this thread with garbage. Produce arguments regarding the subject or stay out.
Who is leftwinged in here? Traditionally, it is has been the business of the conservatives to restrict rights. What you are advocating here is the most leftist point of view I've ever came across.
And what arguments have you brought against data collection by the EU? As far as I can remember you've left it with calling us and the EU commies, but nothing more.
You simply cannot stand that someone has another opinion, or can you? At least if someones point of view differs from yours, you berate the **** out of him, but nothing more.
The Commission is tasked by the EU governments to investigate such a merger.
How about you read the articles you post yourself and place blame accordingly.
Again, you completely did not refer to what I've said.
That's exactly what I did. I judge people by their posts, nothing else.
Concerning whether I have an idea of democracy or not I can only say that I'm even studying political science.
In the DDR? Judged by your history I somehow very much doubt you are able of making a comparative constitutional analysis.
Arguments for what again? In that thread I did not reason anything, I simply ridiculed your fanatic way of getting rid of this topic.
This just proves my point, again. You along with your likeminded german crew came in and flooded this thread with garbage. Trolling that's called, and you just even confessed you did. :cantbeli:
where I've brought a plenty of arguments for my point of view to name only one example.
I have no recollection of you. Either way you not feeling like having a discussion does not give you the right to go in and try to stop others from having a meaningful exchange.
Traditionally, it is has been the business of the conservatives to restrict rights.
Utter nonsense.
What you are advocating here is the most leftist point of view I've ever came across.
Utter nonsense.
You are a very deranged person.
And what arguments have you brought against data collection by the EU?
I for a fact started this thread. It's up to you to respond in a meaningful manner. Though no one got that chance here since you started flooding it with meaningless junk.
You simply cannot stand that someone has another opinion
I can not stand trolls who come in and deliberately ruin threads by flooding them with garbage.
Now, get out of this thread.
How about you read the articles you post yourself and place blame accordingly.
I translated that part of the article so I do think I have read it. It's a symbiosis. The basis is a proposal from the EU commission who have received a go ahead from the governments. There are a number of elements who are strong protagonists of the current development, Frattini and Merkel are two who are worth mentioning. Although arguably no one up there is without blame.
Invisigoth
11-11-2007, 11:47 AM
Just get a fingerprint-free passport in 2009, they last ten years; and by 2019 we should have enough money to move to New Zealand :)
In the DDR?
:cantbeli:
Judged by your history I somehow very much doubt you are able of making a comparative constitutional analysis.
If you insist...
This just proves my point, again. You along with your likeminded german crew came in and flooded this thread with garbage. Trolling that's called, and you just even confessed you did. :cantbeli:
I thought you'd value freedom of speech as high? Why shouldn't I be allowed then to comment your attitude? This usual !1OMFG Commie EU1!!! blablabla?
I have no recollection of you. Either way you not feeling like having a discussion does not give you the right to go in and try to stop others from having a meaningful exchange.
Nah, I neither did that nor did I say that.
Utter nonsense.
And why is that nonsense? Apart from the Warsaw pact nations, it had been the domain of conservative governments around the world to restrict the freedoms of their citizens. Go through worlds history to find the examples which date back to the first semidemocratical governments of the three past centuries.
Utter nonsense.
You are a very deranged person.
Aha.
I for a fact started this thread. It's up to you to respond in a meaningful manner. Though no one got that chance here since you started flooding it with meaningless junk.
Again, is it up to you what is important to post and what is not, just because it might differ from your opinion?
Now, get out of this thread.
No, I won't, for another try - let's see how you'll react.
I don't regard collection of fingerprints as an intervention into my personal rights. One could argue that the collection violates my rights on informational self-determination what is at least here guaranteed by law.
A finger print may be an unique personal signature of mine as an individual, but one could argue as well that all other data the government collects about me would do that, too - My eye color, my birthplace.
That is why I don't oppose it as a particular measure.
However, if they are allowed to launch that project, the time will come to take the next step into total surveillance (from which we are still far away) with another preemptive security measure, regardless what that might be then. And then the proponents will be able to advocate their new plans with the reasoning that we cannot oppose this step if we allowed all further to happen.
I thought you'd value freedom of speech as high? Why shouldn't I be allowed then to comment your attitude? This usual !1OMFG Commie EU1!!! blablabla?
You just keep proving yourself to be a moron. E.g. liberty is simply you having the right to start this type of board without government approval. Nothing more nothing less. But I doubt you understand that.
Nah, I neither did that nor did I say that.
Again you contradict what you said just lines before. You had no intention here whatsoever but to troll and start the type of nonsense discussion you're involved in right now, which is effectively hindering any meaningful exchange.
And why is that nonsense? Apart from the Warsaw pact nations, it had been the domain of conservative governments around the world to restrict the freedoms of their citizens.
No. Just shows how little you know. And for the record no government in Europe is conservative (besides perhaps in Poland), the whole political spectrum is left-centered.
Again, is it up to you what is important to post and what is not, just because it might differ from your opinion?
You came here with no other intention but to troll, and you have said so yourself. It has nothing to with do with differing opinions, it's you trying to flood a thread with garbage to prevent a meaningful exchange.
No, I won't, for another try - let's see how you'll react.
Your own behaviour reflects back on you.
Though In real life you just like any hobbit would sit down and shut up when grownups are talking.
One could argue that the collection violates my rights on informational self-determination what is at least here guaranteed by law.
Learn english and stop the engrish/gibberish.
A finger print may be an unique personal signature of mine as an individual, but one could argue as well that all other data the government collects about me would do that, too - My eye color, my birthplace.
That is why I don't oppose it as a particular measure.
I have urged you for several pages, and here you finally try to make some sort of argument. Even though it miserably fails. Anyone understands that registering eye-colours shared by billions of people does not compare to registering the individual fingerprints, DNA, communications, transactions, movements etc. of 500 million citizens who aren't under any type of suspicion. If you can't make this simple distinction, then one can't really expect much of you.
However, if they are allowed to launch that project, the time will come to take the next step into total surveillance (from which we are still far away) with another preemptive security measure, regardless what that might be then. And then the proponents will be able to advocate their new plans with the reasoning that we cannot oppose this step if we allowed all further to happen.
Just ignorance and lack of reasoning.
You don't understand what the reality is like right now. Everything about everyone is tracked and stored in databases. Everything from what type of books you buy, how much alcohol you drink, who you are calling, emailing, what websites you visit, what music you download, your exact location at all times etc. There is simply very few measures left to implement. This would include mandatory fingerprinting, DNA, a ban of encryption technologies, a ban of pre-paid telephone cards, a ban of all non-electronic financial transactions (i.e. bills and possibly coins).
Changes are not happening overnight through some major reform but by small steps. Hence the expression "tyranny of small steps".
Evolv5
11-11-2007, 03:49 PM
Back to a topic related question; Will the new biometric passports cost more money? I'm already paying, what, ~50 Euros (or the equivalent in any other currency) for a passport renewal. That's quite a hefty fine for some.
Back to a topic related question; Will the new biometric passports cost more money? I'm already paying, what, ~50 Euros (or the equivalent in any other currency) for a passport renewal. That's quite a hefty fine for some.
Biometric passports are already implemented here. Fingerprints are going to be added in new passports from no later than 2009 (alledgly 2008 here). A good thing to know might be that the PD issuing them might "run out" of old passports earlier than that and implement the new system earlier than projected.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 03:56 PM
Back to a topic related question; Will the new biometric passports cost more money? I'm already paying, what, ~50 Euros (or the equivalent in any other currency) for a passport renewal. That's quite a hefty fine for some.
The new passport costs 59,- instead of 26,- Euro.
Niels
11-11-2007, 04:03 PM
No way they'll be taking my prints for no reason. You keep handing in a bit of your privacy every few years to fight terrorism or to save the environment or whatever reason those quasi-communist politicians come up with, and the next thing you know you have a chip in your brain and a collar around your neck that gives you an eletric shock every time you have a thought that's not promotive for the glorious Euroviet Union. No thanks.
What if you dont have any hands? Will they not give you a passport?
Weasel
11-11-2007, 04:13 PM
What if you dont have any hands? Will they not give you a passport?
Then, I´m sure, the neocons will find another way how to keep you under surveillance.
Then, I´m sure, the neocons will find another way how to keep you under surveillance.
You should not worry about US, this is happening in EU and is much worse.
Evolv5
11-11-2007, 04:17 PM
What if you dont have any hands? Will they not give you a passport?
Seriously though, what the hell happens then?
At least they don't scan our retinas....yet.
Weasel
11-11-2007, 04:21 PM
You should not worry about US, this is happening in EU and is much worse.
I meant the european neocons.
I meant the european neocons.
Too bad there are none.
Seriously though, what the hell happens then?
You could get rid of them, "workplace accident".
You just keep proving yourself to be a moron. E.g. liberty is simply you having the right to start this type of board without government approval. Nothing more nothing less. But I doubt you understand that.
Again you contradict what you said just lines before. You had no intention here whatsoever but to troll and start the type of nonsense discussion you're involved in right now, which is effectively hindering any meaningful exchange.
You came here with no other intention but to troll, and you have said so yourself. It has nothing to with do with differing opinions, it's you trying to flood a thread with garbage to prevent a meaningful exchange.
You're repeating yourself constantly, but you don't point out my alleged contradictions.
No. Just shows how little you know.
Share your wisdom, I just hope they don't let my graduate with my little knowledge.
And for the record no government in Europe is conservative (besides perhaps in Poland), the whole political spectrum is left-centered.
I think now I've got your point. You judge by actions, not by parties aren't you? However, I did not solely mean the Europe of today.
Your own behaviour reflects back on you.
No it doesn't, after being repeatedly berated by you I've tried to renew a reasonable debate here, and all what I get is to be called a "moron" in the first paragraph.
Though In real life you just like any hobbit would sit down and shut up when grownups are talking.
rofl
Learn english and stop the engrish/gibberish.
Which language am I using here if not English? But it's very grownup to ridicule language skills of others instead of reasoning with valid points.
I have urged you for several pages, and here you finally try to make some sort of argument. Even though it miserably fails.
Thank you for reacting to my miserable foolishness.
Anyone understands that registering eye-colours shared by billions of people does not compare to registering the individual fingerprints, DNA, communications, transactions, movements etc. of 500 million citizens who aren't under any type of suspicion. If you can't make this simple distinction, then one can't really expect much of you.
What if I don't want to make that distinction simply because I don't agree with this point of view? Because I don't see a need to make a distinction there?
Just ignorance and lack of reasoning.
What ignorance? What lack of reasoning? You permanently say I would not properly reason my point of view but neither do you.
When online investigation of home computers belonging to terror suspects firstly was proposed here in Germany, the first argument that our MoI brought was that no one could oppose the planned measure because recent surveys had shown that a majority of the people did support the last counterterrorism laws of the government.
You contradict yourself as proven with your last sentence here:
Changes are not happening overnight through some major reform but by small steps. Hence the expression "tyranny of small steps".
That's exactly what I've said, haven't I? Collection of fingerprint data is just another step, the step itself is nothing important (at least in my opinion :roll: [See below, too!]), but to what it could lead is indeed something totally different.
You don't understand what the reality is like right now. Everything about everyone is tracked and stored in databases. Everything from what type of books you buy, how much alcohol you drink, who you are calling, emailing, what websites you visit, what music you download, your exact location at all times etc. There is simply very few measures left to implement. This would include mandatory fingerprinting, DNA, a ban of encryption technologies, a ban of pre-paid telephone cards, a ban of all non-electronic financial transactions (i.e. bills and possibly coins).
That's why it should not be important anymore, or should it? How could one oppose the fingerprint saving if he has not opposed all other new measures before that, too? I did not say that this is my opinion, but it is the opinion proponents.
And who collects all these informations? Apart from US security services no authorities, but the economy! Banks do collect, credit card companies, clubs, airlines, mailorder business firms, hotels, and so on and so on, although not having any right to do so. The minor problem is that authorities have access to them in certain cases.
By the way - a very grown-up reply!
I translated that part of the article so I do think I have read it. It's a symbiosis. The basis is a proposal from the EU commission who have received a go ahead from the governments. There are a number of elements who are strong protagonists of the current development, Frattini and Merkel are two who are worth mentioning. Although arguably no one up there is without blame.
One would think so, yet you rant as if you hadn't. So the government appointed commission is tasked by the governments to do something while the final approval and implementation rests with the governments. Let's blame The EU!
capixaba
11-11-2007, 06:35 PM
What if you dont have any hands? Will they not give you a passport?
My father got in a bit of bother the first time he went to the States a couple of years ago, cos he's got no fingerprints! All his life as a chemical engineer messing about in labs with acid and the like, his prints are away to nothing....took a bit of explaining.
Snoshi
11-11-2007, 06:45 PM
I dont see whats the bid deal? If you are not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about..
daily666
11-11-2007, 06:56 PM
I dont see whats the bid deal? If you are not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about..
So if I'm not suspected for being one why the hell they need my fingerprints. I'd like EU to focus more on fishing quotas or something equally useless.
No. Just shows how little you know. And for the record no government in Europe is conservative (besides perhaps in Poland), the whole political spectrum is left-centered.
You've got a point there mate, our conservatives are way off mark in Euro scale, and our liberals are more conservative than conservatives in the "old" EU. It more resembles US politics.
supercontra
11-12-2007, 05:16 AM
I'm not planning to committ a crime anyway. Are you?
I dont see whats the bid deal? If you are not a criminal then you have nothing to worry about..
That type of reasoning assumes the following.
A) The government is "good" and interested in the well being of every citizen.
B) That everybody working for the government is "good", incorruptible and interested in the well being of every citizen.
C) That so will be the case for all eternity.
I am sure a great percentage of the jews registering to get their little yellow star on the jacket in the thirties thought the same way. "I have done nothing, so I have nothing to hide" and everybody knows what happened after that.
That type of reasoning assumes the following.
A) The government is "good" and interested in the well being of every citizen.
B) That everybody working for the government is "good", incorruptible and interested in the well being of every citizen.
Nope, but I don't see a reason for my data to be withheld from my government because my government is for sure not entirely "not-good", not entirely corruptible and at least a bit interested in the well being of every citizen, be the only cause survival of the next elections.
You see, so many branches of economy do collect a plenty of confidential informations about me without any kind of authorization only to shell me with advertising in the end, then I'd rather have my government collect these informations due to security purposes.
That's why I don't mind official fingerprint collection in particular. But the next measure is on the doorstep (for example the creation of movement schemes with the help of the road toll system is a debated proposal at the moment), and if we allow the authorities to take the current step they probably won't halt to take the next one and so on.
supercontra
11-12-2007, 10:13 AM
@muck
I agree with you but take the opposite stance. I don't want the government to take my fingerprints and neither do I want the businesses to collect every bit of information on me.
I know that in todays society that is impossible but I don't feel that just because it is so we should endorse it.
I agree with you but take the opposite stance. I don't want the government to take my fingerprints and neither do I want the businesses to collect every bit of information on me.
I know that in todays society that is impossible but I don't feel that just because it is so we should endorse it.
For sure, and I can live with that. It is the major problem of today's data security, and it is about time that legislators all over Europe do something against the unauthorized data collection by non-governmental groups of interest.
Well, as experience shows, many authorities work too inefficiently to conduct abuse of your data, however I admit that's nothing worth in a coldhearted deliberation.
My equation of fingerprints and let's say the eye colour was for sure an exaggeration, only the past (at least in this country) has shown, that people even strongly oppose the collection of such unimportant details, as the last census here and the demonstrations before it have shown. It has proven that people inconsiderately oppose everything they find suspicious without making any kind of deliberation about the question which lines already had been crossed, for example the illegal data collection within the business branch. That's the aspect I wanted to criticise - Sapere aude instead of crying about apparently the bad whilst the worst was not even noticed yet by a majority.
Finally someone who really responds to another persons opinion instead of unsubstantially berating him.
By the way, much worse than the fingerprint story is the telecommunication data retention recently nodded through here after pressure from Brussels. That is something to worry about, and only shows how much influence lobbyism has gained in Eurostan.
Kippari
11-12-2007, 10:50 AM
Strange, i don't see my government collecting my fingerprints as any kind of restriction to me.
Many of you have to remember, that the government is not a giant computer, who's trying to control our lives. It's formed of people, who you have elected. They are afterall people themselves, while imposing these pre-emptive measures, they are doing it for themselves also. Unlike in some dictatorships, they are not above the law. Who sane politician would impose his own goings to be tracked accurately? I don't know about Sweden, Poland or Germany, but in here, proposing such would be a political suicide and a great way not to get re-elected.:roll:
I tend to agree, however I doubt that immunity would not protect active politicians from that procedure. But that's an interesting question.
wotsnext
11-12-2007, 11:08 AM
I believe the average career for a politition in the UK is 9years after which they become the victims of there own legislation, So I tend to agree with Kippari on this one.
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