Sarin Nerve Gas Artillery Shell Found In Iraq...Uh-oh..

[Caribou Kid]

Just saw it scrolling on the CNN newsbar as the latest Daily Briefing from Baghdad was being aired live. BBC had it up, too. WTF?

Is this the timely arrival of the fabled smoking gun....?

I really, really, really hope this is a hoax, and not the real McCoy.

This does not bode well for the sandbox, methinks..... :|

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

They fired plenty of chemical warfare shells during the Iran / Iraq war and during the persecution of the Kurds so would not be surprised if they did find something. As for the WMD's touted in the run up to the war well I think that is wishful thinking.

[Marmot1]

Sarrin filled shel exploded when coalition soldiers played with it and some sarin was accidentyalyy released to atmosphere.. All what I know


BAGHDAD (*******) - The U.S. military said Monday an artillery shell exploded in Iraq had released a small amount of the nerve agent sarin.
It was the first announcement of the discovery of any of the weapons on which Washington made its case for war.

Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt told a news conference that the substance had been found in an artillery shell discovered by a U.S. convoy. The round exploded, causing a small release of the substance, he said.

[MEGR]

Apparently their saying that the gas was inside a roadside bomb.. Thats not good.. Our boys better watch out.

[Caribou Kid]

Fox News now running with this story too.

Holy gasmasks, Batman! How hot is it in a Tyvek suit in the Iraqi desert in the daytime?? p-)

This will not go down well with our hard working troops, making an already challenging task even more difficult.

Atropine auto-injector supplies are going to cop a hammering in the coming days, It's a safe bet, if they haven't already been re-issued. A major hassle, for sure, but better than the alternative...

[Hellfish]

They mention that it was only a small amount. Still, as single shell is hardly a smoking gun.

[scm77]

:( If WMD's start turning up what is John Kerry going to do?

Hope everyone stays safe over there.

[scm77]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.main/index.html

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- American-led coalition forces in Iraq found sarin gas in an artillery round that was rigged as an improvised explosive device, U.S. Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Monday.

The device went off before it could be disabled, Kimmitt said, causing a "small dispersal" of the nerve agent. Two members of an explosives ordnance team were treated for minor exposure, he said.

Kimmitt said the artillery round was of an old style that Saddam Hussein's regime had declared it no longer had after the Persian Gulf War. He said it was designed to explode after being fired from an artillery piece and that its effectiveness as an improvised explosive device was "limited."

Kimmitt did not say where the weapon was found nor did he say if it originated in Iraq.

[Argyll]

Now what's the chances of randomly finding one of these shells to create an IED?
Where there's one there's bound to have been more,and that's more worrying.

Any Artillery experts here?
My chain of thoughts here are that to maximise dispersal they need to be airburst weapons,the explosives used for an IED may well cause it to be innefective,most of the Chemical would "burn up" on ignition.
I'm guessing the insurgents didn't know what they were dealing with,if they did a roadside bomb would be a miss use,especially in an "open envoronment",more damage would be done in a contained area?

[fdt]

woot Hoooorrray!!! More not funny new WMD cartoons on the way !!!

[-=P=-]

Americans can find even 20 nerve gas shells, these European but also American supplied C-weapons were used in such a large scale during the first Persian Gulf War against Iranians that, they could be called normal weapons and in a war burred shells can fast get forgotten.

That’s nothing war scale, as said one could find 1 ton on c-weapons and count it as forgotten, so much has Saddam used in the 80's...

[American Patriot]

Finally, WMD found in Iraq but not by us. This certainly is good news since the discovery proves Saddam violated UN sanctions.

[Caribou Kid]

Wouldn't there be some manner of being able to distinguish between various shell types, in a similar manner to red-tipped tracer being used in machine gun belts? Artillery shells are painted with the batch and lot details on 'em (Different cloloured bands around the girth of the shell?...) but even if they were scratched off after all these years, there would have to be SOME way of visually recognizing them from one another, wouldn't there?

Grenades are shaped in different forms to help readily identify them (White Phos has conical bottom, white colour, etc) as are various mortar bombs and even the different rounds used in the 84mm Carl Gustav, (Illum, HESH, HEAT) so it would seem a straight-forward conclusion to figure that your average disgruntled Iraqi ex-Artillery Corps bombardier could easily distinguish between a 155mm Prox-fuze illum round and a frikkin' Sarin Nerve Gas-filled one! (Even a scabby ten-years-old one!!!...well...maybe...)

An un-sophisticated attack, it would seem, but still very worrying nonetheless.

[Kitsune]

American patriot wrote:
This certainly is good news since the discovery proves Saddam violated UN sanctions.
:roll:

That must be the American "happy go lucky" attitude. To see the good side in everything.

Keep it up! :D




But funny is this:
The device went off before it could be disabled, Kimmitt said, causing a "small dispersal" of the nerve agent. Two members of an explosives ordnance team were treated for minor exposure, he said.

?!?
Must have been a pityful exemplar of a WMD...

[oldsoak]

Be interesting to see if this is an isolated incident or a harbinger of more to come. How much is there that we know little about ?

[American Patriot]

American patriot wrote:
This certainly is good news since the discovery proves Saddam violated UN sanctions.
:roll:

That must be the American "happy go lucky" attitude. To see the good side in everything.

Keep it up! :D




But funny is this:
The device went off before it could be disabled, Kimmitt said, causing a "small dispersal" of the nerve agent. Two members of an explosives ordnance team were treated for minor exposure, he said.

?!?
Must have been a pityful exemplar of a WMD...

No, this shell could kill many people if it were fired from an artillery piece. The anti-Iraqi Islamist terrorists just didn't know that.

[Herrmannek]

Mybe they were experimenting, and such shels are good wepons against EOD of all kinds... I wouldn't be suprised if in some wepon cache denounced to coalition forces few C-****y traps wuould be planted for PSYOPS reasons... Remeber that contamined road is out of order for much longer than after explosive materials with can be saftly dentonated from safe range inflicting no further risk...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The anti-Iraqi Islamist terrorists just didn't know that.
Do we know what group was behind this?

[Caribou Kid]

Yes, a valid point, Hermannek, EOD tasks in Iraq just got harder by an order of magnitude, with one simple act. As if it wasn't difficult and risky enough already....now the brave EOD Techs gotta do all the same **** as they were doing before, only with a respirator on now, just in case... p-) Oh yeah, and with a diminished sense of touch, too, compliments of the rubber gloves they'll have on.

Be interesting to see what the contaminated/exposed EOD team members have to say about the device. Hopefully they are responding well to the Hopsital treatment they are getting for the "minor" exposure. :|
They will have some intersting war stories to tell, I reckon. :|
Hope the Military release the details soon, if OPSEC allows it. (Not many people can claim to have had a Sarin gas cloud close-encounter, eh.)

[Argyll]

The anti-Iraqi Islamist terrorists just didn't know that.
Do we know what group was behind this?

I doubt this was a particular group,more the run of the mill insurgents,who were not aware of the shells they were dealing with.

It's not the 1st time they've been clueless where munitions have been deployed,the Illumination Rounds fired from the mortars are also a classic!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

It's not the 1st time they've been clueless where munitions have been deployed,the Illumination Rounds fired from the mortars are also a classic!
I read an article by one of the Sapper officers who seemed surprised that there was not more insurgents killed setting up these devices such was the botch up job on some of the initiation circuits.

[Luxembourger]

Yes the german news magazine DER SPIEGEL confirmed the issue of the 155mm shell too .

That s not so good when the militias and insurgents have shells filled with nerve gas

[BlackRain]

First shell with sarin found

Dispersal would be far more effective if a shell containing nerve agent were fired from an artillery piece, he said. Kimmitt said he believed it was the first case in which US forces had found an artillery shell containing sarin.

"The former regime had declared all such rounds destroyed before the 1991 Gulf War," Kimmitt said. "Two explosive ordinance team members were treated for minor exposure to nerve agent as a result of the partial detonation of the round."

Developed in the mid-1930s by Nazi scientists, a single drop of sarin can cause quick, agonising choking death. There are no known instances of the Nazis actually using the gas, but that didn't stop other nations from stocking it.

Nerve gases work by inhibiting key enzymes in the nervous system, blocking their transmission. Small exposures can be treated with antidotes, if administered quickly.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2939035




This can't be possible the Germans and the French assurred the world that there were no WMD in Iraq. Hmm...

[Secret Squirrel]

Hopefully they are responding well to the Hopsital treatment they are getting for the "minor" exposure. :|
They will have some intersting war stories to tell, I reckon. :|
Hope the Military release the details soon, if OPSEC allows it. (Not many people can claim to have had a Sarin gas cloud close-encounter, eh.)

I would assume, at least i hope, that because the coalition expected chemical agents, they had the antidotes on hand. On the plus side, at least sarin evaporates quickly and doesnt linger very long. Though this does make me ask if the insurgents/terrorists/whoever else have access to sarin and whether or not we'll see it used more "intelligently" (ie. water pollution). If anyone wants to see the possible affects of a sarin attack, check out two terrorist attacks in Japan in 1994 and 1995.

[mi35d]

And the peaceniks stammer....

"Bu-bu-bu-but, Saddam said he got rid of all the chemical artillery shells! You mean he was...LYING?!?"

<<Shock!>>
<<Awe!>>
<<Disbelief!>>

Rationalizing:

"It must have been misplaced. That's it. Because Saddam was really just a misunderstood kinda guy."

[BlackRain]

I am stilling waiting for the report on the chemical attack that was thwarted in Syria. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/81981/1/.html Al-Qaeda chemical attack in Jordan could have killed 80,000: officials

Notice how the world has remained silent on this issue. If it comes out that those chemcials came from Iraq's arsenal, there will be alot of crow to eat in Europe.

Just as the USA has set sactions on Syria for aiding the Iraqi insurgents, Europe has come to the defense of Syria. Will the EU sign a new trade deal with Syria despite the fact Syria refuses to sign the anti-WMD pledge?

---------

EU pursues closer Syria ties despite US sanctions

Jordan Times, Thursday, May 13, 2004

Syria is a full member of the EU's Euro-Mediterranean partnership, a trade, aid and cultural pact including a political and security dialogue — the only forum outside the United Nations where it sits at the same table as Israel

BRUSSELS (*******) — The European Union is hesitating on the verge of signing a key trade and aid pact with Syria but has no intention of following the United States in imposing sanctions, EU officials said on Wednesday.

EU negotiators initiated an association agreement with Damascus last December but Britain, Germany and the Netherlands have held up signature because they want to include a stronger commitment to renounce weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

Syria is a full member of the EU's Euro-Mediterranean partnership, a trade, aid and cultural pact including a political and security dialogue — the only forum outside the United Nations where it sits at the same table as Israel.

"It's quite clear that the EU has a policy of engagement with Syria," European Commission spokesman Diego de Ojeda said. "We believe this agreement would be a very good instrument to promote political and economic reform."

President George W. Bush banned all US exports to Syria other than food and medicine on Tuesday, accusing Damascus of supporting terrorism, pursuing WMD and failing to stop anti-US fighters from entering Iraq.

The sharp contrast in approaches is emblematic of wider transatlantic differences over the Middle East and especially the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Underlining Brussels' policy of rapprochement with a country Washington regards as a rogue state, Commission Vice President Loyola de Palacio will visit Damascus on Sunday to discuss integrating Syria into regional energy networks and connecting it to the EU's energy market. EU officials see the association agreement as a hook to get Syria to cooperate more against terrorism, as well as to expand political and economic freedom in the authoritarian state.

A British official said the US decision would have no impact on whether the EU went ahead with its agreement.

"The real issue on Syria is and will remain the extent to which we and Germany feel the outcome of the negotiations reflects the weapons of mass destruction policy we adopted. Subject to that, we'd be ready to go along," he said.

Diplomats said the three critics were demanding a renegotiation of the WMD clause, which Syria has so far refused.

One EU official said their obstruction had raised some doubt as to whether the Union had the political will to conclude the accord under current circumstances. But Dutch Foreign Minister Bernard Bot, whose country takes on the EU presidency for six months in July, said after meeting Syrian President Bashar Al Assad last month he was very hopeful they could find a satisfactory agreement.

The EU agreed last year to make renunciation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons a standard feature of trade and aid agreements with third countries.

Syria argues that the EU makes no such demands of the Arab state's arch-foe, Israel. Critics accuse EU External Relations Commissioner Chris Patten of rushing to conclude the Syria talks last December as a political gesture to counter the US Congress' adoption of the Syria Accountability and Lebanese Sovereignty Restoration Act.

[catdat]

And the peaceniks stammer....


Umm...it's been pretty much documented that Saddam had plenty of chemical weapons mi35d. I'm not that concerned about those shells here in Florida as I think I may be "just" out of range. Those ballistic missles he had if you can find any dirt on them...


The CDC sheet on Sarin in case any of you guys get too close:

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/erc107-44-8.asp

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

EU pursues closer Syria ties despite US sanctions

You can forget the anti Euro rhetoric today Black Adder your playing to an empty gallery. :P

[scm77]

And the peaceniks stammer....

"Bu-bu-bu-but, Saddam said he got rid of all the chemical artillery shells! You mean he was...LYING?!?"

<<Shock!>>
<<Awe!>>
<<Disbelief!>>

Rationalizing:

"It must have been misplaced. That's it. Because Saddam was really just a misunderstood kinda guy."

rofl rofl

[Herrmannek]

Hopefully they are responding well to the Hopsital treatment they are getting for the "minor" exposure. :|
They will have some intersting war stories to tell, I reckon. :|
Hope the Military release the details soon, if OPSEC allows it. (Not many people can claim to have had a Sarin gas cloud close-encounter, eh.)

I would assume, at least i hope, that because the coalition expected chemical agents, they had the antidotes on hand. On the plus side, at least sarin evaporates quickly and doesnt linger very long. Though this does make me ask if the insurgents/terrorists/whoever else have access to sarin and whether or not we'll see it used more "intelligently" (ie. water pollution). If anyone wants to see the possible affects of a sarin attack, check out two terrorist attacks in Japan in 1994 and 1995.


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/sarin/erc107-44-8.asp

Lethal cholinesterase inhibitor in liquid or vapor form.

There is only a slight difference between a fatal dose and a dose that produces more mild health effects.

Clothing releases agent for about 30 minutes after contact with vapor.

Contaminated surfaces present long-term contact hazard.

[martinexsquaddie]

there was some turd after ww1 went round burying caches of mustard gas shells all over the uk :( met the EOD bloke who had the lovely job of dealing with these :(. Also had a lovely time in kuwait dealing with chemical mines :roll:.
bet there's shed loads of these shell's lieing around but unlikely to be in any special compound. My brother saw loads of unexploded ordinance along the iran iraq border. No place for souviner hunting or weapon inspectors but if your looking for ied material :roll:

[csqnsas]

Come on guys - get real.

Think about it how many he was/ they were supposed to have?

How many have we found?

Lets think about the Terrorists planting these and other devices. If they had the know how to use them and they had a large stock of them .Why is this the first reported use?

Think? these worms try use anythig as a weapon. Read up on the Bosnian war - the Serbs used the chemical chlorine as a weapon. Not a specific WMD i.e Blister agent just some concentrated pool chemical.

Think about how we have protection up to our eyeballs.

To find out who planted this one look for the terrorist lying in a pool of his own sh*t and vomit.

Herrmannek

Sarin ( if that was what it was)is a NERVE agent - i.e highly volatile compounds, they quickly disperse in open air, which can result in only minimal dosages to the intended victims. They are nonpersistant.


mi35d

Lay off the useless peacnik crap.

Take a guess who the two countries with the most WMD in the world .

Or walk around a WW 1 battlefield with a CAM. There is still Blister agent all over France.

Every year in France and England they find chemical shells from WW1.
for the A.T.O's its SOP.

Yes its a worry but nothing the troops are not trained for and have the MOP/IPE to work in.
[/b]The terrorist does not

Mind at 40 degrees I'm glad I'm not in full MOP/IPE

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek

Sarin ( if that was what it was)is a NERVE agent - i.e highly volatile compounds, they quickly disperse in open air, which can result in only minimal dosages to the intended victims. They are nonpersistant.


I quoted source nothing more :) ... BTW being nerve agent have nothing to do with its physical properties like vapour resilience, density, viscosity etc, all comabat gases were "designed"* to work well on batlefield in not always ideal conditions...sarin also so speed of it dispeersing couldn't be very fast because it would not work then. Also sticking to random surfaces or products of reaction with them should also be considered...



*chosed to be exact

[Tane Angle]

Argyll, you are correct, the shells work best when is airbursts. Honestly, more than a few people I've talked to have been surprised that up until now, no stray shells were found. The astounding lack of shells left over left some unsure what to think. The indication right now appears to be that the people who used it were unaware of the shell type. The fact that some rounds are designed for specific tasks has been ignored some.

Honestly, I still don't know what to think about the fact that it's taken so long for one to turn up. I don't know if that means most of the strays were picked up or just no one went looking for them or what. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Secret Squirrel]

Herrmannek

Sarin ( if that was what it was)is a NERVE agent - i.e highly volatile compounds, they quickly disperse in open air, which can result in only minimal dosages to the intended victims. They are nonpersistant.


I quoted source nothing more :) ... BTW being nerve agent have nothing to do with its physical properties like vapour resilience, density, viscosity etc, all comabat gases were "designed"* to work well on batlefield in not always ideal conditions...sarin also so speed of it dispeersing couldn't be very fast because it would not work then. Also sticking to random surfaces or products of reaction with them should also be considered...



*chosed to be exact

But sarin does disperce quickly, and clothing is containamented for about a half hour. Why use a chemical weapon that sticks around for a long time? Doesnt make sense if you hope to occupy that area or check the results of your "attack".

[Herrmannek]

Herrmannek

Sarin ( if that was what it was)is a NERVE agent - i.e highly volatile compounds, they quickly disperse in open air, which can result in only minimal dosages to the intended victims. They are nonpersistant.


I quoted source nothing more :) ... BTW being nerve agent have nothing to do with its physical properties like vapour resilience, density, viscosity etc, all comabat gases were "designed"* to work well on batlefield in not always ideal conditions...sarin also so speed of it dispeersing couldn't be very fast because it would not work then. Also sticking to random surfaces or products of reaction with them should also be considered...



*chosed to be exact

But sarin does disperce quickly, and clothing is containamented for about a half hour. Why use a chemical weapon that sticks around for a long time? Doesnt make sense if you hope to occupy that area or check the results of your "attack".

I agree, but "quickness" is relative, for full scale battlefield hour or 2 is quick in other cases not necessarily...

[SEALInTheMaking]

This could become very dangerous for our soldiers and Iraqi civilians very quickly. It's pretty apparent that, based on how the weapon was employed, that the insurgents did not know what they were dealing with. Now they do, and if they have found a stockpile of these shells, then we could be looking at a large chemical attack within the next couple of days. (If they did find sarin shells, god only knows what else they found) Now Im not an expert on artillery or chemical weapons, but it seems pretty likely that if they know what they have, they're either going to try and extract the agents and release them somewhere, or more likely, throw as many of these shells as possible in the back of a van and blow it up in a populated area.

[usa320]

Anyone who still thinks that Iraq had no WMD is simply and bluntly a dumb****.

This was the smoking gun. and we got lucky it didnt kill many people, because had it been fired from a mortar instead of blown up, it could have cause major damage.

This is gonna make the work of EOD alot more complex now, because instead of just defusing IED's, they need to check them for WMD's first.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Anyone who still thinks that Iraq had no WMD is simply and bluntly a f****
Yep I will be the first to put my hand up for this one usa320 when to I get my f**** badge.

[Tane Angle]

I think I'll wait before I call it a smoking gun. The fact that the users were apparently unaware that the two capsules needed to be mixed for the sarin to form indicates that it was probably not a former Hussein-regime person trained in it's use.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[usa320]

Tane you are missing the point. Its not the fact that they knew or didnt know the shell contained sarin. Its not rather or not the insrugents had intention or possession of sarin. The issue here is that it now can be proved for fact that saddam hussein had, in his possession, durring his regime, weapons banned by UN resolution 687.

[Secret Squirrel]

Anyone who still thinks that Iraq had no WMD is simply and bluntly a f***.

This was the smoking gun. and we got lucky it didnt kill many people, because had it been fired from a mortar instead of blown up, it could have cause major damage.

This is gonna make the work of EOD alot more complex now, because instead of just defusing IED's, they need to check them for WMD's first.

Smoking gun? hardly. Do you know how much sarin was present in that shell? And how much damaged could have occured?

[radon]

Finally, WMD found in Iraq but not by us. This certainly is good news since the discovery proves Saddam violated UN sanctions.

Everyone knew that before anyway.


Anyone who still thinks that Iraq had no WMD is simply and bluntly a f***.

This was the smoking gun. and we got lucky it didnt kill many people, because had it been fired from a mortar instead of blown up, it could have cause major damage.

I disagree. Atleast it wasn't a rusty and rotten mustard gas shell this time. Munitions get lost , that is no news. But nobody knows even if that shell was as old and rusty as the last wmd found burried. It could be as well it isn't possible firing that thing from anything. Even if I dont thins is anything special. Saddam could have as well fired normal shells at the kurds.

[Herrmannek]

Chance that insurgants found one of few lost/missacounted c-shels is very low and chance they used them in attack even lower....So I think they have much more of it and after today they'll know what they have even they didn't yesterday :)

[Argyll]

Is anyone willing to wager with me that the "token" WMD find will be made before November? ;)

[ibstolidude]

Is anyone willing to wager with me that the "token" WMD find will be made before November? ;)
yes, but only because that is when Bin Laden will be thawed out from the freezer and "found"! ;)

[Argyll]

Is anyone willing to wager with me that the "token" WMD find will be made before November? ;)
yes, but only because that is when Bin Laden will be thawed out from the freezer and "found"! ;)

Clutching a map with all the secret WMD dumps in Iraq ,marked with big red "x's" ;)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The issue here is that it now can be proved for fact that saddam hussein had, in his possession, durring his regime, weapons banned by UN resolution 687.
I think you are clutching at straws here USA320 on the issue of UN resolution 687 considering the ebb and flow of the battle lines of the Iran / Iraq war and what we now know to be the piss poor auditing practices of the Iraqi army I would not be surprised if some of these binary agent shells went astray either in the supply chain or en-route to be destroyed.
The Iraqi army has left countless live munitions strewn around Iraq from conflicts past, I am surprised they have not found a Scud and transporter / launcher lying around somewhere with a herd of goats taking shelter under it.

[ibstolidude]

Is anyone willing to wager with me that the "token" WMD find will be made before November? ;)
yes, but only because that is when Bin Laden will be thawed out from the freezer and "found"! ;)

Clutching a map with all the secret WMD dumps in Iraq ,marked with big red "x's" ;)

And love notes from NK, Syria, Iran and France; with a campaign contribution reciept from John Kerry. ;)
- even it was true, it would likely not even help him.

[Obergefreiter]

The shell is said to be a 155mm shell. Would they not have used 122 or 152mm shells?
Did Iraq use any artillery in 155mm, and did they have any in that caliber that would have used gas?

Or am I being too specific?

[Argyll]

The shell is said to be a 155mm shell. Would they not have used 122 or 152mm shells?
Did Iraq use any artillery in 155mm, and did they have any in that caliber that would have used gas?

Or am I being too specific?

You'd be surprised at just what Saddam had at his disposal with regards to Artillery pieces,and the Coalition were lucky they were not used,he had some heavy duty stuff,IIRC he had some SA stuff as well alon the lines of the "Rhino"SP Gun

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The shell is said to be a 155mm shell. Would they not have used 122 or 152mm shells?
Did Iraq use any artillery in 155mm, and did they have any in that caliber that would have used gas?

Or am I being too specific?

You'd be surprised at just what Saddam had at his disposal with regards to Artillery pieces,and the Coalition were lucky they were not used,he had some heavy duty stuff,IIRC he had some SA stuff as well alon the lines of the "Rhino"SP Gun
I think Gerald Bull did some work on extended range 155mm pieces for them and I could be wrong here but Matrix Churchhill made a few batches of shells in 155mm for trials in Iraq before they sold them tooling. Rumour has it that the ballistics computations for the SA and Iraqi 155mm were done in the US.

[Secret Squirrel]

The issue here is that it now can be proved for fact that saddam hussein had, in his possession, durring his regime, weapons banned by UN resolution 687.
I think you are clutching at straws here USA320 on the issue of UN resolution 687 considering the ebb and flow of the battle lines of the Iran / Iraq war and what we now know to be the piss poor auditing practices of the Iraqi army I would not be surprised if some of these binary agent shells went astray either in the supply chain or en-route to be destroyed.
The Iraqi army has left countless live munitions strewn around Iraq from conflicts past, I am surprised they have not found a Scud and transporter / launcher lying around somewhere with a herd of goats taking shelter under it.

herd of goats... rofl...thats awesome. Tests should be completed soon to date the sarin. But also keep in mind, the Iraqi army was never well known for marking its ammo very well.

[usa320]

You guys are misisng the point completely. It doesnt matter who saddam planned at shooting them at, who had them when we found them, what kind of shell they were or where they were found in Iraq. The bottom line is this find proves that saddam hussein was in posession of Sarin, a banned munition under UN Res.687, at some point after the gulf war. And not only did he not destroy or mark the weapon, but he hid and lied about it from the UN weapons inspectors.

The only reason anyone could possibly believe Saddam didnt have WMD is being blinded by one sided political views and a burning desire to see the US fail in iraq.

Come on guys, i know for a fact that some two-bit losers from Afghanistan werent able to concoct enough VX in Jordan to kill 20,000 people in their kitchen sink.

The finds in Syria and Jordan. The convoys headed to syria before the war, the building that mysteriosly blew up when the ISG took a peek inside...now the clearest proof yet- mustard gas and sarin shells being found, one exploding.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The following extract was taken from globalsecurity.org its not the best technical resource and it does speculate on the death Dr Bull but its concise.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/supergun.htm

Most worrisome in Iraq's arsenal of guns developed by Gerald Bull from mid-1981 until he was assassinated on 22 March 1990 [probably by Israeli intelligence], were its 300 155 millimeter howitzers, all versions of the GC-45 gun that Bull developed in the 1970's. Two hundred of these guns, termed GH-N-45 and manufactured in Austria, were shipped to Iraq via Jordan in 1985 for use in the Iran-Iraq war. The remaining 100 were manufactured in South Africa, where they are marketed under the name G-5. The G-5 can deliver a tactical nuclear warhead, chemical shells or any NATO standard 155mm shell.

Bull also designed two advanced self-propelled artillery systems for the Iraqis: the 210-millimeter Al Fao and the 155 millimeter Majnoon. The Al Fao, which weighs 48 tons, can fire four 109 kilogram rounds a minute for 35 miles from its 11-meter barrel. The Iraqis claim that the Al Fao and Majnoon can attain a top speed of 72-88 kilometers an hour on the road.

[Obergefreiter]

It is good that they never used the SA guns. They are based on the Austrian guns (that we are phaseing out stupidly in my opinion)

These are some of the most effective, longest ranged, and accurate atrillery pieces in the world.

I thought he had all Russian artillery. Thank you for the information.

[ExtraT]

The G-5 can deliver a tactical nuclear warhead, chemical shells or any NATO standard 155mm shell.


This is bull****. There is no way a nuclear device can be crammed into 155mm. There is a basic limitation of the diameter of the imploding sphere - and it's bigger than 155mm.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The G-5 can deliver a tactical nuclear warhead, chemical shells or any NATO standard 155mm shell.


This is bull****. There is no way a nuclear device can be crammed into 155mm. There is a basic limitation of the diameter of the imploding sphere - and it's bigger than 155mm.
http://www.brook.edu/FP/PROJECTS/NUCWCOST/shell.jpg
Weapons designers examining a mock-up of a test version of the W48 155-millimeter nuclear artillery shell


An estimated 1,000 W48 nuclear artillery shells (designed by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory) were produced and deployed with Army and Marine Corps forces between 1963 and 1991. The W48 had a yield of 0.02-0.04 kilotons (equal to 2-4 tons of TNT).

Credit: Department of Energy (courtesy Natural Resources Defense Council)
You were saying.

[Argyll]

The G-5 can deliver a tactical nuclear warhead, chemical shells or any NATO standard 155mm shell.


This is bull****. There is no way a nuclear device can be crammed into 155mm. There is a basic limitation of the diameter of the imploding sphere - and it's bigger than 155mm.


:cantbeli: ..........so how can they make suitcase bombs then?
You think they cannot make this sphere smaller than 155mm?

[Herrmannek]

0.02-0.04 kilotones is 20-40 tones not 2-4 tones

[catdat]

Argyll wrote:

Is anyone willing to wager with me that the "token" WMD find will be made before November? :)

I'll see that bet Argyll and I'll raise you one Saudi - a found Bin Laden right before the election.

[Argyll]

0.02-0.04 kilotones is 20-40 tones not 2-4 tones

Big fuc*in' mushroom then?

[Herrmannek]

0.02-0.04 kilotones is 20-40 tones not 2-4 tones

Big fuc*in' mushroom then?

Dunno, ask guys from EOD :)

[catdat]

"Little Boy" the first atomic bomb was equivalent to about 20,000 tons TNT. So yea big cloud.

http://pegasus.phys.saga-u.ac.jp/imagesMac-PC/ForPEACE/bomb1.jpg

[ExtraT]

You were saying.

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Sorry, I f*cked up here. Probably it's because it's not an imploding scheme.

However, the place I looked it up lists it's yield at 75t.