PDA

View Full Version : The end justifies the means



bryanleu2002
11-17-2007, 01:26 AM
Read Carefully

Why is this concept so flawed, or not?

Why is it that it is common day practice in Law Enforcement? (buy a Scanner and listen)

Why do most (tax paying individuals) in the US believe that the end justifies the means is this the correct course of action?
Consider Before Election Day I may not agree with some of Bush's
policies and I think we should have some exit strategy for Iraq , but
the following makes me think;

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new
constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at
the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the
AthenianRepublic some 2,000 years earlier:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up
until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts
from the public treasury.

From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who
promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that
every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which
is always followed by chaos."

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the
beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those
200 years, those nations always progressed through the following
sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"




A Lawman Speaks for Liberty


This letter is the first ever written by Police Officer Jack McLamb, of the Phoenix Police Department (1979), to his fellow police officers nationwide. It would later lead to the founding of his international police publication - Aid & Abet Police Newsletter: Constitutional Issues for Lawmen. The publication has since been expanded to include the U.S. National Guard, Coast Guard, and military personnel.



After spending a number of years in law enforcement and at the same time working closely with citizen groups in the city, state and country on various programs, I have fortunately gained a fair understanding as to what citizens think and feel about police officers in their communities.


Of all the different citizens' attitudes and beliefs that I have encountered (including some misconceptions) there is one in particular which seriously affects my own and other officers' attempts to establish a trusting and close relationship with fellow citizens, both in our business and private lives. Let me explain.


There are literally millions of citizens today who have awakened to understand the causes of many of our national problems; thousands upon thousands more join their ranks each month. These citizens are actively attacking the source of these problems, and specifically, they mean to hold government responsible for the part it has played.


People are discovering that government is purposely involved in various actions that are injurious to our society, not to mention illegal in certain cases. They, the citizens, don't understand why we, as law enforcement officers, don't join them in the attack against such wrongful activities. Many have long since decided that it is because police officers have sworn allegiance to "the system", to the government, and that it is the government that is most sacred in our eyes. This group of involved citizens believes that, even though we may be very much aware of the wrongs committed by government officers, we, like many other government officials, believe that "the end somehow justifies the means".


As an example, one large city police department, along with its state criminal justice system, tried to push an unconstitutional bill through the legislature. This bill, if passed, would have allowed law officers to gain evidence illegally, as long as they did so "in good faith". They would then be able to use that evidence in the course of prosecuting the accused.


Well, this sounds like the answer to every officer's dreams, doesn't it? After all, we officers would use these tactics only against criminals now, wouldn't we? What do you think the good citizens felt about this "wonderful" new method of fighting crime? The first thing to cross the mind of the intelligent citizen is that his very privacy, security and freedom would now depend upon who might be doing the labeling of who is and who is not a criminal!


Would the Jews become criminals just because they are Jewish? How about the Irish? Officers, take heed of such new "laws". Who knows, one day all people in "low riders" may be labeled as criminals, or perhaps all blonde-haired, blue-eyed people, or people with "afros". "OH, THAT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE!" It already is happening here, in America. You may not be aware of it, but thousands of good citizens are labeled as "criminals" each year by the IRS, for example, in the course of their many "investigations". Suppose this agency (or any other) selects YOU next year, after being allowed to gain "evidence" against you UNLAWFULLY, and then use it in court. A plan very similar to this has just been recommended by the President's Task Force on Crime, and may pass into law this year.


The point is this: The citizen sees his God-given, Constitutionally-guaranteed rights increasingly crushed beneath the feet of those who have sworn an oath to uphold and protect those very rights. And he is absolutely right! And why do we lawmen do such things? Because we do not understand that there are those in power in American government who want to destroy this nation. How do they covertly accomplish this goal? They do it under many names. For example, it is done, many times, in the name of "expediency", or behind the cry, "for the good of the people" or "for the good of the majority". And we officers become the evil-doers' ENFORCERS. Is it any wonder that many private citizens see us as part of the big plan, and who, as INSIDERS, will do what we are told to do, regardless?


I have had occasion to expound over and over again to angry groups of good citizens, that the law officer allows these things to continue for the very same reason that most private citizens allow them to continue: They just don't know what is going on. Officers, like private citizens, are not aware of their rights, so how can they know when they are violating or losing them? They are not aware of the laws protecting those rights, so how can they know when there is a violation? l explain that the American Officer is not knowingly taking part in the perpetuation of these violations and crimes against his fellow citizens; for if he were aware, he would know that he is then destroying his own rights as a citizen. Some people now know and understand this truth, namely, that police officers are as misinformed and naive as other good citizens; and just as badly they need to become informed, IF we are to save this nation.


Probably the most serious problem, and the one that I find hardest to excuse to any satisfaction is this: Why are government officials, lawmen included, allowed to raise their right hands and swear to uphold and protect laws that they don't know exist at the moment they take oath, and still today don't know exist. Sound ridiculous? Do you doubt what I just said? Then answer this question: What is the Sixth Amendment to the Bill of Rights? What'?! You don't remember? How about the Eighth Amendment? Forgot that, too, eh? Now get out your oath of once and read: "I _______, do solemnly swear that I will support and bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and laws of the United States of America and the State of ______…" You and I, officer, are like protectors and defenders of that vital document, the Constitution. Should we not know what is in it?


I have a confession. Until a knowledgeable citizen showed me my own ignorance concerning these founding documents, I, too, was guilty of this very serious shortcoming. I remember only too well. It was an old gentleman who, after I spoke in front of a large group of citizens one night, asked me these two questions:


1) How could I, an officer of the law, protect citizens' rights if I did not know what they are?


2) How would I know when, in the performance of my duty, I might be infringing on the rights of the citizen, if I were not knowledgeable of those rights?

What could l say? I was terribly embarrassed, and although I could not admit it that night, I knew he was right. This was the real turning point in my life as an American citizen, and as a protector of the People. I began to feel guilty. I started to read and study. There were two books I read right away: The Constitution Explained by Harry Atwood, and The Biggest Con by Irwin Schiff I was never more shocked in my entire life. I was stunned! I couldn't speak for hours after finishing these books. I have since read them several more times, as well as many others similar in theme.


My life has changed from that time till this. I spent the next two years studying and checking facts. I became "mad" at myself and "mad'' at my fellow citizens, both public and private, for allowing this to happen over the years. I was furious with the government for the atrocities it had been committing, and above all for hooking me into their perpetration!


From that time until now, my goal has been to share what I have learned with my fellow lawmen, hoping that they in turn will share these things with other officers and with their own families. In this way we may join the millions of other good Americans across the country who have decided to stand up and fight for this God-given Land called America. We must secure it once and for all from those traitors within our own system who wish to continue having their way with our liberties and freedoms.


And so I ask: Are you an informed officer? If you are, you will be able to answer the next four questions with ease.


Name one well known, national organization that has been in business for many years, whose goals include that of systematically opposing and deterring any laws designed to curb crime or protect the public. (If you guessed the ACLU, you were correct.)


Is it possible at this time for the President of the U.S. to take complete dictatorial control over this country within 24 hours?


As of November 1980 is it now possible to "arrest" the leaders in the criminal justice system for criminal injustices against the victims of crime?


Is a national police force now being formed? I believe the answers to these questions will shock most officers. The correct answers to questions like these can be vital to the law officer. So why don't more officers have the answers, when so many citizens do? I know why, and you should too. If you're curious about the answers to any of these questions, I'd be very pleased to share them with you. Send a self-addressed, stamped envelope (and perhaps a little to cover copying costs) to my home at (address obsolete)


I wish to share one last thought with you, brothers and sisters: IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE. Sound familiar? I recall some years back when thousands of dedicated officers were, put to death, each one stating: "I WAS ONLY FOLLOWING ORDERS.'' (Remember Nuremberg?)


The writing is once again on the wall, my fellow officers. You and I, and all government officials, have a heavy responsibility to our countrymen. The SOUNDS OF LIBERTY DYING are all about us. We can ignore those sounds further, but we will hear them again and again, and one day so loudly that we will no longer be able to ignore them ever again. May it not be too late!


Yours in Freedom,

Officer Gerald "Jack" McLamb

Courtesy

Bryan

http://www.jackmclamb.com/Articles/LawmanSpeaksLiberty.htm

bluffcove
11-17-2007, 03:05 AM
1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;
4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"


Ive liked this quote for a long time, and wondered who said it, Cheers. I reckon we are somewhere around complacency at the moment.

Ratamacue
11-17-2007, 03:12 AM
Ive liked this quote for a long time, and wondered who said it, Cheers. I reckon we are somewhere around complacency at the moment.The quote is a fake. Whoever created it didn't even bother to make it read like 18th century literature.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Litti
11-17-2007, 03:15 AM
I dont believe that at all.

There have been economical recessions in many democratic nations and they survived just fine. We had one in Finland, a lot of people lost their jobs and things were looking bad. There was the wall street crash in USA but it simply meant that the opposition gained popularity.

And I was too tired to read the other part about losing your liberty completely. But people in the developed world have fought hard for their individual freedoms and we are not going to let them just slip away. When a political party crosses the line, you will see it in the votes which is evident in the USA as well (Republicans down, Democrats up)

Calanen
11-17-2007, 05:30 AM
The USA has faced far worse crises than the one it faces at the moment. The American Revolution, probably the bookies would have backed His Majesty. Then the Great Depression, where the economy went into meltdown not seen before or since, to the point where there was a real question whether it could ever recover. Nearly going bankrupt during WW2. Things are going just peachy in comparison to those other parts of history.

Its just that today, we have a lot more time on our hands to talk about how the sky is falling.

Rictor
11-17-2007, 12:41 PM
The United States, meaning the people, economy, military etc, have certainly faced greater crises before. But I would say that the American Republic, as a form of government, is in one of its worst crises ever.

And if the Republic fails, America as an entity distinct among nations goes with it.

Herrmannek
11-17-2007, 01:07 PM
Democracy is a poor system, its an old truth. I've learned that just recently when I ran away from under influence of elementary and high school country wide unified propaganda by leftist scholars... Now I think best thing is constitutional monarchy, constitution warrants yours and kings rights,freedoms and obligations and you both are obliged to keep guard of constitution, plus if constitution is well formed, King as being owner of the state will nor steal from the state(who steals from himself) nor he will give out his treasury for no reason. Thats because he is not elected, He doesn't need to prove anything to the people, but because he earns money on taxes defined meticulously by constitution his wealth depends on the peoples wealth...Well programed constitutional monarchy can warrant a thousands years of stable governments for the country. Once in a while there will be a bad king who can't manage himself, but constitution needs the provisions for the case... I'm curious if we ever go back to such system...

Hollis
11-17-2007, 02:12 PM
Democracy is a poor system, its an old truth.


I would say it is people who make Democracy a poor systems and the other systems a complete failure.

250 years ago every government, I believe was dictatorial, ie Monarchy and the like.

Today, they world is not the same as it would 150 years ago. Many actions that were considered norm are now gone as barbaric practices of the past.

The ability to change and to adapt to that change is what allows a system to survive. The US...... has changed and adapted.

Once one realizes there will never be a Utopian system system, some kind of "worker's paradise", a workable system with all if faults begins to look real good.

Humans will corrupt any system, the idea is to have sufficient check and balance that no one person or small group of people can control most if not all the power. The Security of the American people is not the Government, it is the people themselves.

One could say, the political systems of mankind are evolving into a more "democratic" form.

Herrmannek
11-17-2007, 02:25 PM
I would say it is people who make Democracy a poor systems and the other systems a complete failure.

250 years ago every government, I believe was dictatorial, ie Monarchy and the like.

Today, they world is not the same as it would 150 years ago. Many actions that were considered norm are now gone as barbaric practices of the past.
You are preety wrong :) Of course I wasn't talking about constitutional monarchy Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth/British style. I want a real king with real power, not the "modern constitutional monarchy" that equates to ordinary indirect democracy everyone has.

After wikipedia:

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, formed after the Union of Lublin in 1569 and lasting till the final partition of the state in 1795 operated much like many modern European constitutional monarchies. The legislators of the unified state truly did not see it as a monarchy at all, but as a republic under the presidency of the King. Poland-Lithuania also followed the principle of "Rex regnat et non gubernat", had a bicameral parliament, and a collection of entrenched legal documents amounting to a constitution along the lines of the modern United Kingdom. The King was elected, and had the duty of maintaining the people's rights.

Litti
11-17-2007, 02:43 PM
Absolute power to one person means that his personal oppinions and beliefs dictate the population. More often than not, it has usually been a bad thing. Especially if anyone disagrees.

Our political systems have evolved throughout the years, democracy is the result. In this case Monarchy would be like the neanderthal, slowly dying away as an obsolete form of government.

Totalitarian regimes might work when you look at economical growth. Worked for Soviet Union in the 1930's and it works for China at the moment. But in these oppressive regimes will fall.

Herrmannek
11-17-2007, 03:01 PM
Absolute power to one person means that his personal oppinions and beliefs dictate the population. More often than not, it has usually been a bad thing.

Our political systems have evolved throughout the years, democracy is the result. In this case Monarchy would be like the neanderthal, slowly dying away as an obsolete form of government.

Nor monarchy nor democracy are new. They are millennia old craps... important new word here is constitutional... in cons. monarchy King doesn't have absolute power. and this system IMHO has less flaws than democracy. BTW what we have now is heading into absolute democracies. More and more of my freedoms is transformed into "rights of ...". Actually in absolute values people from 1600 had more rights than we do. Taxes were rarely larger than 10% in total, there was no borders, you could build whatever house you liked on your soil, and so on... Of course there was a problem of feudal structure of society, cast systems, and so on, wide lack of constitutional rights, and so on... But democracy had nothing to do with solving all this problems... USA won because USA constitution is second to bible, not because democracy is best system around.

Hollis
11-17-2007, 03:17 PM
You are preety wrong :) Of course I wasn't talking about constitutional monarchy Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth/British style. I want a real king with real power, not the "modern constitutional monarchy" that equates to ordinary indirect democracy everyone has.

After wikipedia:

Sound like you want to be a slave to some king.

The only king I would accept would be me as king. I strongly feel my wife would disagree and kick me off the throne.

I does not seem many of us have made it out of the medieval ages. A constitutional representative republic is about as good as it gets. A dictatorship of the proletariat leads to despotism, Monarchies lead to despotism, Oligarchies lead to despotism, other words any time a individual or group of individuals can garnish more power than others, we are in trouble.

Power does corrupt.

Herrmannek
11-17-2007, 03:35 PM
Sound like you want to be a slave to some king.

The only king I would accept would be me as king. I strongly feel my wife would disagree and kick me off the throne.

I does not seem many of us have made it out of the medieval ages. A constitutional representative republic is about as good as it gets. A dictatorship of the proletariat leads to despotism, Monarchies lead to despotism, Oligarchies lead to despotism, other words any time a individual or group of individuals can garnish more power than others, we are in trouble.

Power does corrupt.

Why You think I would be a slave to some King? In constitutional monarchy King doesn't have bigger power over me than todays state/head of state have. Difference is King is interested in keeping his country well oiled and wealthy compared to elected head of state that steals whatever it can while his term/cadence lasts...

vryhpyammoadded
11-17-2007, 03:51 PM
When a nation gets so polarized between the entitlement culture and the independents, with the managerial elite irresponsibly set on pleasing all sides just so it can maintain enough favor to get elected to keep its vampire fangs in the Republics revenue jugular as primary concern, you get exactly our situation with either side using every trick in the book to gain the upper hand via the political proxy.

All this leads to the continual incremental corrupt creep towards tyranny as the two factions slowly secure a greater, more focused grip on the legal minutia so as to beat the other out and, being much like falling momentum, the more corruption your legal system gains, the more corrupt your population needs to be to survive while your population of integrity needed to slow things down goes into decline. It’s like some vicious national death spiral.

Sure Bush, Pelosi and a host of other politicians play their parts in this fiasco but they aren’t really the biggest problem. Sure we can fix a lot by removing them from office but really only more people like them will take their place. Heck, just look at the crooks waiting in the party wings to fill Bush’s shoes or those Senate and House seats up for grabs.
No, this philosophic standoff in the voting masses minds won’t get fixed until enough of one philosophy beats the snot out of the other gaining enough control to dominate legislation and leverage the corruption to its ends.

So, the decision is really quite simple. Are you for the entitlement culture with its busy body nanny state meddling in your affairs, keeping you in the fat dumb and happy life of ignorant bliss while the elite fat cats run away laughing to the bank till all the lights go out or, are you for acting like a responsible grownup, showing some integrity, leading your own life, working hard and enjoying the profits of your labor that is yours to decide who can buy and punish those who attempt to steal it?

Once you choose, go out and find others of like mind then take over the local party of your choice and get involved. Do something while we still have a Constitution protecting our rights to choose. Don’t go whining about it being too late, that you cannot change the election in 08. So it is too late, so what. Go get cracking for the next election and push some real candidates, not these corporate canned and market spun heaps of dung, bad and worse choices.

Personally, the answer is clear to me. Socialism is by its very nature a system more fertile to the growth of corruption, therefor, I’m all for anyone who has the platform of reversing the federal influence over the states, i.e. weaning off the entitlement state, giving power back to the individuals. Sure, I know that’s unrealistic, none of the candidates are promoting this but I will continue to push this in my local party and on line anyway. Someone is going to hear me until more people join up or America suffers the inevitable course to tyranny our current situation leads to. Lord help those poor guys in law enforcement should this nation ever slide so far.

Yes, I agree. America is in the grips of it's greatest crisis ever. The Civil War began over squabbles concerning slave or non-slave seats in the house, so shall the next one be but only using new names meaning the same old thing; freedom or slavery

bryanleu2002
11-23-2007, 01:34 AM
The quote is a fake. Whoever created it didn't even bother to make it read like 18th century literature.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Do not believe everything you read on snopes..


http://www.mgroves.com/images/snopes_cartoon.gif

Ratamacue
11-23-2007, 01:39 AM
Do not believe everything you read on snopes..I don't. However, I was not able to find a source from, say, a university website or other such academic institution attributing any similar quote to "Alexander Tyler" or, more accurately, Alexander Fraser Tytler. But feel free to do so and prove me (and Snopes) wrong.

bryanleu2002
11-23-2007, 02:40 AM
I don't. However, I was not able to find a source from, say, a university website or other such academic institution attributing any similar quote to "Alexander Tyler" or, more accurately, Alexander Fraser Tytler. But feel free to do so and prove me (and Snopes) wrong.

yea ,, your right,, after much research I have concluded,. This is a thread should be terminated , the issue of democracy can not be debated !! its absurd.

We are a democracy , "THAT IT" is perfect and can't be flawed..

No qoutes of this nature can be attributed to "Alexander Tyler" ........

Maybe it can be attributed to Alexander Tytler, or even Arnold Toynbee, or Lord Thomas Macaulay,

Who the **** Knows .. and who cares?

It's the point that counts ....

Its like the 911 conspiracy theriost.

It does not matter what is fact , It's what you Believe!!!!

Nobody with sound body and mind believes that 911 was a conspiracy by the government. anyone with a straight mind will tell you this , including me

However, This is insignificant to those who want to believe in it..

It's not what you and i know as fact, it what every body wants to believe!

This is the essense of control,,

Try getting into any broadcast station in your area!! Here, not even the cub scouts can get in for a tour, let alone you and I!.. This reminds me of the one of the planks of the communisist manifesto...

It makes me think that the media looks at our troops as victims and felons... At the same time, you cant go inside their workplace to see what they are really doing... Very strange...