World should give thanks for America

[He219]

World should give thanks for America (http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/americans-world-thanksgiving-1924033-europe-europeans)
MARK STEYN
Syndicated columnist

Speaking as a misfit unassimilated foreigner, I think of Thanksgiving as the most American of holidays.

Christmas is celebrated elsewhere, even if there are significant local variations: In Continental Europe, naughty children get left rods to be flayed with and lumps of coal; in Britain, Christmas lasts from Dec. 22 to mid-January and celebrates the ancient cultural traditions of massive alcohol intake and watching the telly till you pass out in a pool of your own vomit. All part of the rich diversity of our world.

But Thanksgiving (excepting the premature and somewhat undernourished Canadian version) is unique to America. "What's it about?" an Irish visitor asked me a couple of years back. "Everyone sits around giving thanks all day? Thanks for what? George bloody Bush?"

Well, Americans have a lot to be thankful for.

Europeans think of this country as "the New World" in part because it has an eternal newness, which is noisy and distracting. Who would ever have thought you could have ready-to-eat pizza faxed directly to your iPod?

And just when you think you're on top of the general trend of novelty, it veers off in an entirely different direction: Continentals who grew up on Hollywood movies where the guy tells the waitress "Gimme a cuppa joe" and slides over a nickel return to New York a year or two later and find the coffee now costs $5.75, takes 25 minutes and requires an agonizing choice between the cinnamon-gingerbread-persimmon latte with coxcomb sprinkles and the decaf venti pepperoni-Eurasian-milfoil macchiato.

Who would have foreseen that the nation that inflicted fast food and drive-thru restaurants on the planet would then take the fastest menu item of all and turn it into a Kabuki-paced performance art? What mad genius!

But Americans aren't novelty junkies on the important things. The New World is one of the oldest settled constitutional democracies on Earth, to a degree the Old World can barely comprehend. Where it counts, Americans are traditionalists.

We know Eastern Europe was a totalitarian prison until the Nineties, but we forget that Mediterranean Europe (Greece, Spain, Portugal) has democratic roots going all the way back until, oh, the mid-Seventies; France and Germany's constitutions date back barely half a century, Italy's only to the 1940s, and Belgium's goes back about 20 minutes, and currently it's not clear whether even that latest rewrite remains operative. The U.S. Constitution is not only older than France's, Germany's, Italy's or Spain's constitution, it's older than all of them put together.

Americans think of Europe as Goethe and Mozart and 12th century castles and 6th century churches, but the Continent's governing mechanisms are no more ancient than the Partridge Family. Aside from the Anglophone democracies, most of the nation-states in the West have been conspicuous failures at sustaining peaceful political evolution from one generation to the next, which is why they're so susceptible to the siren song of Big Ideas – communism, fascism, European Union.

If you're going to be novelty-crazed, better the zebra-mussel cappuccino than the Third Reich.

Even in a supposedly 50/50 nation, you're struck by the assumed stability underpinning even fundamental disputes. If you go into a bookstore, the display shelves offer a smorgasbord of leftist anti-Bush tracts claiming that he and Cheney have trashed, mangled, gutted, raped and tortured, sliced 'n' diced the Constitution, put it in a cement overcoat and lowered it into the East River. Yet even this argument presupposes a shared veneration for tradition unknown to most Western political cultures: When Tony Blair wanted to abolish, in effect, the upper house of the national legislature, he just got on and did it.

I don't believe the U.S. Constitution includes a right to abortion or gay marriage or a zillion other things the Left claims to detect emanating from the penumbra, but I find it sweetly touching that in America even political radicalism has to be framed as an appeal to constitutional tradition from the powdered-wig era.

In Europe, by contrast, one reason why there's no politically significant pro-life movement is because, in a world where constitutions have the life expectancy of an Oldsmobile, great questions are just seen as part of the general tide, the way things are going, no sense trying to fight it. And, by the time you realize you have to, the tide's usually up to your neck.

So Americans should be thankful they have one of the last functioning nation-states. Europeans, because they've been so inept at exercising it, no longer believe in national sovereignty, whereas it would never occur to Americans not to. This profoundly different attitude to the nation-state underpins, in turn, Euro-American attitudes to transnational institutions such as the United Nations.

But on this Thanksgiving the rest of the world ought to give thanks to American national sovereignty, too. When something terrible and destructive happens – a tsunami hits Indonesia, an earthquake devastates Pakistan – the United States can project itself anywhere on the planet within hours and start saving lives, setting up hospitals and restoring the water supply.

Aside from Britain and France, the Europeans cannot project power in any meaningful way anywhere. When they sign on to an enterprise they claim to believe in – shoring up Afghanistan's fledgling post-Taliban democracy – most of them send token forces under constrained rules of engagement that prevent them doing anything more than manning the photocopier back at the base.

If America were to follow the Europeans and maintain only shriveled attenuated residual military capacity, the world would very quickly be nastier and bloodier, and far more unstable. It's not just Americans and Iraqis and Afghans who owe a debt of thanks to the U.S. soldier but all the Europeans grown plump and prosperous in a globalized economy guaranteed by the most benign hegemon in history.

That said, Thanksgiving isn't about the big geopolitical picture, but about the blessings closer to home. Last week, the state of Oklahoma celebrated its centennial, accompanied by rousing performances of Rodgers and Hammerstein's eponymous anthem:

"We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand!"

Which isn't a bad theme song for the first Thanksgiving, either.

Three hundred and 86 years ago, the Pilgrims thanked God because there was a place for them in this land, and it was indeed grand. The land is grander today, and that, too, is remarkable: France has lurched from Second Empires to Fifth Republics struggling to devise a lasting constitutional settlement for the same smallish chunk of real estate, but the principles that united a baker's dozen of East Coast colonies were resilient enough to expand across a continent and halfway around the globe to Hawaii.

Americans should, as always, be thankful this Thanksgiving, but they should also understand just how rare in human history their blessings are.

[chuckster]

Well said HE219!

I think the world is catagorically grateful for America (or should be) but a lot of people resent the fact we will not convert to Socialism for our economic system or dump spirituality in favor of secular humanism for our moral values system.

[clean]

There's something to love and hate about the US for everyone. We're both socialist and anti-socialist, religious and secular, charitable and greedy, esoteric and dumb, isolationist and imperialist. We're everything to admire and aspire too, and everything to shun and run from. It's just the nature of this joint.

[Invisigoth]

There's something to love and hate about the US for everyone. We're both socialist and anti-socialist, religious and secular, charitable and greedy, esoteric and dumb, isolationist and imperialist. We're everything to admire and aspire too, and everything to shun and run from. It's just the nature of this joint.

That's pretty spot on.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Aside from Britain and France, the Europeans cannot project power in any meaningful way anywhere

For the past 300-400 years that has pretty much been the case anyway. Nothing new.

[little icebear]

I am saying thanks for American Rock´n´Roll music, for Coca Cola and Fast Food, for Star Wars and for Marvel Comics. p-)

[Litti]

Marvel Comics.Enough awesomeness to cover all the negative aspects!!!

[ex Strathcona]

wow! i am humbled by your awesomeness!

[toki]

In Europe, by contrast, one reason why there's no politically significant pro-life movement is because, in a world where constitutions have the life expectancy of an Oldsmobile, great questions are just seen as part of the general tide, the way things are going, no sense trying to fight it. And, by the time you realize you have to, the tide's usually up to your neck.Great conclusion. :roll:
I thought that was the most ignorant part of the read. And i think it shows the core of the article. So in Europe there are no "Great questions" raised.

All in all this is a pseudo religious and nationalist pissing contest with alot of funny moral conclusions.


Speaking as a misfit unassimilated foreigner, I think of Thanksgiving as the most American of holidays.
The author wants to raise his credibility, but a rant is a rant is a rant.

[MajorTom]

World should give thanks for America (http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/americans-world-thanksgiving-1924033-europe-europeans)
MARK STEYN
Syndicated columnist



It started with a promising word "World".
But already the second sentence revealed what was coming..

"In Continental Europe, naughty children.."

This fantasy story was full of anti-European drivel generated by a low self esteem.
This re-writing of history, generalization and total lack of understanding makes my head hurt.

Americans should give thanks to Europeans who brought civilization to that God forsaken land in 1500.

[Cralis]

Ah, it was a little-bit embelished, but the general points are well taken. It was a form of a rant, but it has a good purpose and hits some pretty important points. Since I'm not an English-major, I won't nitpick his writing skills.

Major Tom, I would like to point out that many of our ancestors fled Europe to get away from oppression. Are you saying we should thank Europe for that?

Toki, I noticed you took out the part asking about "who has the philosophers" ... one of the points of his rant is that the "old europe" where they came from is nothing like the "new europe" of today. And he's right.

We do have a LOT to be thankful for.

[theholeinthedonut]

Great conclusion. :roll:
I thought that was the most ignorant part of the read. And i think it shows the core of the article. So in Europe there are no "Great questions" raised.

All in all this is a pseudo religious and nationalist pissing contest with alot of funny moral conclusions.


The author wants to raise his credibility, but a rant is a rant is a rant.

I'm afraid I have to agree with toki on this.....which just goes to show how big an arseclown Monsieur Steyn is......pathetic.
Not to deny though that the US of A are a great country we should be grateful to.

[Rictor]

Aside from Britain and France, the Europeans cannot project power in any meaningful way anywhere. When they sign on to an enterprise they claim to believe in – shoring up Afghanistan's fledgling post-Taliban democracy – most of them send token forces under constrained rules of engagement that prevent them doing anything more than manning the photocopier back at the base.

To alter Gerald Ford's quote (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1426190) slightly, "A nation powerful enough to give you everything you want is also powerful enough to take everything you have."

I think very few people are interested in living in the shadow of a hegemon, no matter how benevolent. It's a matter of principle, and something Americans, citizens of a nation founded by the original anti-imperialists, should be sympathetic to.

Although I wholeheartedly agree about Marvel.

[MajorTom]

Major Tom, I would like to point out that many of our ancestors fled Europe to get away from oppression. Are you saying we should thank Europe for that?


They went because of job, oppressions, adventure, food... you name it.
There are as many stories as there are people who sailed and survived the Atlantic ocean. But with those Europeans came the civilization to the North America.
We all should thank those brave Europeans who started the USA.

[Telmar]

They went because of job, oppressions, adventure, food... you name it.
There are as many stories as there are people who sailed and survived the Atlantic ocean. But with those Europeans came the civilization to the North America.
We all should thank those brave Europeans who started the USA.

And us Europeans should thank the brave Americans who came back to free Europe from oppression.

Happy Thanksgiving American friends!

[PanzerMaster]

Well said HE219!

I think the world is catagorically grateful for America (or should be) but a lot of people resent the fact we will not convert to Socialism for our economic system or dump spirituality in favor of secular humanism for our moral values system.

<pissing_context>
I don't resent if 50 millions of Americans (many of them hardworking) can die in a blink of an eye because have not health insurance.

I don't resent if your moral values means having metal detectors and armed guard in junior schools and teaching that the world is 6000 years old.
</pissing_context>

I RESENT if your moral value and your economic system will be dumped on my head on my country. I am happy with the America as is... as long there is an ocean between us. p-)

Ranting apart. Don't think that I am happy with the situation here in Italy or in the old europe. I think that there is good in BOTH of our "worlds". If only one can take the good and dump the rest... I am an utopic delusional dreamer

[toki]

Toki, I noticed you took out the part asking about "who has the philosophers" ... one of the points of his rant is that the "old europe" where they came from is nothing like the "new europe" of today. And he's right.

We do have a LOT to be thankful for.

I took it out, because it led to far in my short post. So tell us what the "old" Europe is like? Europe changed all the time. This old and new is meaningless if you do not point out a very precise era. And philosophers and great thinkers existed in every era.

I just wanted to point out the utter arrogance of the quoted sentence in my previous post.

[ronnieraygun]

Well said HE219!

I think the world is catagorically grateful for America (or should be) but a lot of people resent the fact we will not convert to Socialism for our economic system or dump spirituality in favor of secular humanism for our moral values system.

http://will.incorrige.us/facepalm/picard.jpeg


There's something to love and hate about the US for everyone. We're both socialist and anti-socialist, religious and secular, charitable and greedy, esoteric and dumb, isolationist and imperialist. We're everything to admire and aspire too, and everything to shun and run from. It's just the nature of this joint.

/THIS.



For the past 300-400 years that has pretty much been the case anyway. Nothing new.


Dear God man, I like you. But peel off that PVC suit and check yourself. The power-projection thing ended much more recently than your timeline. Anything else is highly suspect.



It started with a promising word "World".
But already the second sentence revealed what was coming..

"In Continental Europe, naughty children.."

This fantasy story was full of anti-European drivel generated by a low self esteem.
This re-writing of history, generalization and total lack of understanding makes my head hurt.

Americans should give thanks to Europeans who brought civilization to that God forsaken land in 1500.

They did not. They kicked out all the poor with their typical classist BS and created the modern world's best semblance of a meritocracy. Europe still can't do it. Brazil still does not even come close. The Europeans brought no civilization. They expelled their poor and their religious nuts. Their place names and land knowledge all came from natives. Many Americans are partly descended from natives. And black folks built a lot. A lot of wealth was created by black people in bondage or indentured servitude. That wealth continues to this day. CSX, Norfolk Southern, etc.


They went because of job, oppressions, adventure, food... you name it.
There are as many stories as there are people who sailed and survived the Atlantic ocean. But with those Europeans came the civilization to the North America.
We all should thank those brave Europeans who started the USA.

We should thank wherever we came from. We came from a lot of other sources than just Europe. This American society celebrates Thanksgiving as a day off from work, nothing more, nothing less. We still work more than your average European and we work harder, too. It gives us one day off to chill with family and watch American football. The rest of the crap is suspect history and everyone knows it. We accept the most workable solution, that somehow natives and some religious nuts had a meal together. That's pragmatism and a solution that rises above vogue ideas, monarchies and hamfisted ideologies and I hope that's what the US is about.

[Sharp]

We still work more than your average European and we work harder, too.

:roll: i really would like to see it.

[ronnieraygun]

:roll: i really would like to see it.

That's a fact, Mr. 35 Hour Work Week. I'm not in this to argue. Anyone could agree that Americans work longer hours and have statistically more productivity than Europeans. I don't like it because it makes me unhappy but it's true.

[ronnieraygun]

And don't get me wrong, I hate jingoistic bull**** just as much as the next person. It's just that the article seems a little refreshing for those of us on this side of the pond because things have been so negative lately. I don't think anyone in this discussion right now intends for some random Europeans to actually come and kiss American ass. No one is perfect and I am not jumping off a transport to throw high fructose corn syrup down your throats. This is just a welcome change compared to the usual crap right now. (America is bad, part 3, America is bad, part 4, American still is bad, part 5) etc etc etc

[ronnieraygun]

And I like Canada, btw. If you want to talk about a cool country to be thankful for living in, Canada might be it. Crazy immigrants and happy white folks making money everywhere. Just cool it on the speed tripods and hirsute ladies.

[Sharp]

That's a fact, Mr. 35 Hour Work Week.

You are wrong by calling me Mr. 35 Hour Week, cuz i'm really far from this 35 hour work limit, as are my fellow patriots.:cantbeli:

[wilhelm]

How did the celebration of Thanksgiving actually come about? Is it as ironic as I've been told?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

In my experience having lived in both Europe and the US, Americans do work more hours and have less holiday, at least in the case of blue collar (factory) workers. Is this a good thing? Depends on your perspective.

Whether or not Americans or Europeans are more productive or efficient is too subjective a question to be anything other than silly.

I tend to agree with Panzermaster that both "realms" have a lot to learn from one another.

Should Europe be thankful for what America has done in the last century? I am afraid that the generation which is thankful is dying out and that if America wants to be thanked by the next generations, it will have to prove itself as a "beacon of democracy and freedom" again. Memories are short.

[Buckeye67]

How did the celebration of Thanksgiving actually come about? Is it as ironic as I've been told?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

There ya go.

[toki]

That's a fact, Mr. 35 Hour Work Week. I'm not in this to argue. Anyone could agree that Americans work longer hours and have statistically more productivity than Europeans. I don't like it because it makes me unhappy but it's true.
So i take it you worked in Europe before?

I know quite a few american expats who work here in my hometown. I have yet to hear they have a leisure time. Personally i can tell you that neither anyone in my (pretty large) family nor friends work 35 hours. Far from it.


In my experience having lived in both Europe and the US, Americans do work more hours and have less holiday, at least in the case of blue collar (factory) workers. Is this a good thing? Depends on your perspective.
That could be a point. Blue collar. I think you also do not work 35 hours?

[wilhelm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

There ya go.

Thanks Buck ... I've checked that already. It appears that they're not sure of the original source for Thanksgiving. Where is it traditionally thought to come from?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

So i take it you worked in Europe before?

I know quite a few american expats who work here in my hometown. I have yet to hear they have a leisure time. Personally i can tell you that neither anyone in my (pretty large) family nor friends work 35 hours. Far from it.


That could be a point. Blue collar. I think you also do not work 35 hours?
I work more than 35, by choice. Like many of my management colleagues, we are measured/paid based on performance and the weeks tend to be a bit longer.

But I know many admin/secretary types or factory workers who work about 35. Try getting a hold of somebody in an office on Friday afternoon at 14.00... many people have already gone home for the weekend.

Germans start early though, most people are at work by 07.30 or 08.00 and are generally quite efficient. Just because Europeans enjoy their holidays doesn't mean they are lazy. I think it is a crime that most Americans have only 2 weeks of holiday.

[Buckeye67]

Thanks Buck ... I've checked that already. It appears that they're not sure of the original source for Thanksgiving. Where is it traditionally thought to come from?

Most folks are taught that the "first" Thanksgiving was at Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1621. The Pilgrims, having suffered greatly during the winter of 1620/1621 were helped by the Wampanoag indians with growing & tending crops and such. Then at the end of that harvest season they held a feast (with the indians in attendance) to celebrate and to give thanks to God for seeing them through.

Thanksgiving is without a doubt my favorite holiday.

[kosse]

I like leisure time and I'm happy to have it. But by all means, work your ass off in US. You'll need to in order to pay back your humongous debts.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Thanksgiving is without a doubt my favorite holiday.
Yeah, the family, food and football... and Turkey leftovers for about a week afterwards. Yum! :)

[wilhelm]

Most folks are taught that the "first" Thanksgiving was at Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1621. The Pilgrims, having suffered greatly during the winter of 1620/1621 were helped by the Wampanoag indians with growing & tending crops and such. Then at the end of that harvest season they held a feast (with the indians in attendance) to celebrate and to give thanks to God for seeing them through.

Thanksgiving is without a doubt my favorite holiday.

Thanks Buck .... so Thanksgiving is as ironic as I thought.p-)

[kilroy1911]

why to give thanks to America:

- USA give hope and chance to milions of people from all over the world to live better lives and to create new nation. Many of these people were persecuted in their home countries for their belief and opinion and only america gives them chance to show what they can really do.
- Many industrial inventions came from the USA - even the toilet paper as we know today is from USA - many of these inventors cannot work in their homelands - Albert Einstein is a shiny example.
- great cultural influence - musice, literature, movies...
- they saved french ass in WW1
- they saved french ass in WW2
- they try to finish what french started in Vietnam
- muscle cars
- they virtually created worlds pop-culture - from movies, art, comics, music to design and architecture

etc etc etc...

- current goverment may not be ideal - but the USA are here from 1776 and since this year they gives to the world many great things and people... and sometimes saved our ass when no one has balls to do it...

[mas-36]

MARK STEYN
The U.S. Constitution is not only older than France's, Germany's, Italy's or Spain's constitution, it's older than all of them put together.


Which to me is an indication of the willingness of their governments to change and evolve over time to better meet the needs of their people.



That's a fact, Mr. 35 Hour Work Week. I'm not in this to argue. Anyone could agree that Americans work longer hours and have statistically more productivity than Europeans. I don't like it because it makes me unhappy but it's true.

Are you sure? I've read articles suggesting this hasn't been true for a while:
http://www.dbresearch.de/PROD/DBR_INTERNET_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000204807.pdf

http://superfrenchie.com/Pics/Blog/charts/productivity.jpg




The author wants to raise his credibility, but a rant is a rant is a rant.


Very true. You might also like to know that other columnists published in that sourse, including George Will, are quite the anti-European in pretty much every case.

Look, Mr Steyn wants to write a column that makes him feel good he can, thats why it's an opinion piece, and he's certainly entitled to it. It's a feel-good piece with lots of flag waving. Europeans write the same thing from their perpesctive. However, being thankful requires the open-mindedness and modesty to realize that MANY things which have proven themselves to be very difficult and required much sacrifice, could not have been achieved without the help of others. It's a two-way street. As an American, I'm grateful in turn that many others see my country as having a beneficial effect on the rest of the world. At the same time, as an American, I'm also well aware that other peoples and countries are doing their part in bettering the world too, including the USA. Perhaps Mr. Steyn should eat a piece of humble pie to help him realize this, instead of thumping his chest instead of suggesting other countries have nothing to offer.

[Buckeye67]

Thanks Buck .... so Thanksgiving is as ironic as I thought.p-)

Depends on how you define "irony", I reckon. :p

[playtym]

World should give thanks for America (http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/americans-world-thanksgiving-1924033-europe-europeans)

I'll second that, after all, they gave us...
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6477/fileshm9gc0.jpg


And if it wasn't for them, all the Arabs in the world might hate one of our countries instead. p-)

[junglejim]

What the hell!!! 40 hour work week is a workers paradise here in Asia, well in my neck of the woods atleast.

I dont know about you guys but a day to say thanks for your blessings, seems to me one of the most logical holiday invented.

[Buckeye67]

I dont know about you guys but a day to say thanks for your blessings, seems to me one of the most logical holidays invented.

I couldn't agree more.

[wilhelm]

Depends on how you define "irony", I reckon. :p

Hehehe.... so the irony is not lost on you then.p-)

How do you prepare turkey so that it doesn't taste like dry rubber?

[mas-36]

why to give thanks to America:
even the toilet paper as we know today is from USA -

Great...Thanks. We sure use a hell of a lot of it too.



- they saved french ass in WW1

This would be news to the French


- they saved french ass in WW2

...and they're grateful for that. You've obviously never been there. A lot of them died too, if you care to know.


- they try to finish what french started in Vietnam

Presidents Eisenhower and JFK did more to get us in Vietnam than anything the French did, or didn't do.

Funny how "America is best" rants almost inevitably descends into the usual realm of France-bashing. It never goes anywhere else. Case and point, Mr Steyn.

[playtym]

Hehehe.... so the irony is not lost on you then.p-)

How do you prepare turkey so that it doesn't taste like dry rubber?

I recommend the Beer Bird. (http://www.beerbird.co.za/)

Disclaimer: This is not an advert.

[Buckeye67]

I can see where some would see irony there. I don't think it's particularly so myself though.

Best turkey I've ever had is deep-fried. Plunge the entire bird into a vat of hot oil. Yum! :-D

Here's Alton Brown on deep frying turkeys (links to part 2 & 3 are there as well):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E270Qx5OpxU

[junglejim]

Roast it till its done with your favourite sauce then, deep fry it. :)

[Basillicus]

Well, although that article is written by some slightly too nationalistic and ignorant person I got to agree with it at some extent. Despite the way things are currently run in the USA (Iraq, environmental issues, problems with the economy etc.) the countrys effect to the world is and has been mostly very positive. We are lucky that the USA with its values has survived as the superpower, I don't want to even imagine what the world would be like if e.g. the Chinese or Russians would have similar power.

But on the other hand with great power comes great responsibility. If you have the power to do good but you do nothing you are critized. If you try to do something and it fails you are critized. And if you succeed people take it for granted and don't bother to thank you, that's the way it goes.

[MetroN]

Yes, we are lucky to have the US as our friend and allied.

But I'm not gonna go on my knees and start sucking their ****.

[wilhelm]

Platym, I've heard of the beer up the ar*e method of preparing chicken .... doesn't the paint/labelling on the can ruin it though? Anyone tried it?

Buck, I've only a few more years 'till I turn 40, and I'd really like to get there. So I'll pass on the deep fryer...

A friend once stuffed a deboned chicken with stuffing, which he inserted into a deboned duck, which he inserted into a deboned bantam (? I think it was called ... a large chicken?) which he then stuffed into a turkey. Every bird had been given lashings of honey, lemon, herbs and chilli....then onto the kettle barbeque with some oak shavings.

Well, let me be the first to tell you .... mmmmm. Perhaps you should try that for thanksgiving. I think he's a bona fide genius.

[Buckeye67]

Sounds like he fixed a "turducken"... too much trouble. :p

and deep frying, when done properly, doesn't make food greasy. p-)

[playtym]

Platym, I've heard of the beer up the ar*e method of preparing chicken .... doesn't the paint/labelling on the can ruin it though? Anyone tried it?

I haven't tried it yet, but I picked up one of those things last weekend when I was at the butchers. I'll report back once I've tried it out.

[kilroy1911]

Great...Thanks. We sure use a hell of a lot of it too.


This would be news to the French

...and they're grateful for that. You've obviously never been there. A lot of them died too, if you care to know.

Presidents Eisenhower and JFK did more to get us in Vietnam than anything the French did, or didn't do.

Funny how "America is best" rants almost inevitably descends into the usual realm of France-bashing. It never goes anywhere else. Case and point, Mr Steyn.

just because i didnt put a :-) there it doesnt mean that it was completly serious(hint: vietnam).

to WW1 - the US put a 1 000 000 FRESH troops into trenches which is a considerable amount of manpower. In the first months - US forces (AEF - american expeditionary forces) were used to complement french or UK troops but later at the end of war, AEF conduct a couple of succesful large scale offensive operations - afaik 500 000 men assaulting the german lines. These operations were supported by french, but conducted mostly by AEF and under command of general pershing. Most important thing is not just the number itself, but the fact thet these men were trained properly in the US and their were fresh - compared to war-tired (or better say trench-tired) european troops on both sides.

[INAT]

Yes, we are lucky to have the US as our friend and allied.

But I'm not gonna go on my knees and start sucking their ****.


oh come on just the tip .p-)

[MetroN]

Use your hand. Or get a blow-up-doll.

[INAT]

thats ok i'm not an American just live here.

[wilhelm]

Sounds like he fixed a "turducken"... too much trouble. :p

and deep frying, when done properly, doesn't make food greasy. p-)

From wiki...


The turducken is not suitable for deep frying (http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&wikititle=1&q=Deep%20frying) Cajun style (http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&wikititle=1&q=Cajun%20cuisine) (to deep fry poultry, the body cavity must be hollow to cook evenly)..........although some people now serve it in place of the traditional roasted turkey at the Thanksgiving (http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&wikititle=1&q=Thanksgiving) meal.So the SOB actually did not invent it!!?? Mind you, he probably heard it from a family member.

Platym, why don't you try it tonight? If we don't hear from you tomorrow then we'll know....

[Buckeye67]

I'm not sure who came up with the turducken idea. They've been around for a while now though. Paula Deen did a great turducken on her show (a Thanksgiving special) on the Food Network. It does look good, but it seems a lot of trouble, and I'm not that fond of duck. So I'll stick with me more traditional style fixins. :-D

[Telmar]

... Most important thing is not just the number itself, but the fact thet these men were trained properly in the US and their were fresh - compared to war-tired (or better say trench-tired) european troops on both sides.


It is true that the arrival of US troops helped counterinfluence the end of the german eastern front with the Russian armistice.

However, the casualty rate of the American troops was high because they and their commanders were not as combat ready as the Brits or the French. Training is not like the real thing.

[harddeck]

to the rest of the aussies on here isnt it good to hear the names of all these countries like america, canada or the various european nations and be able to say......who gives a fvck.......the suns out, the beach has a wave and that blonde has huge ****.

[PanzerMaster]

Usually I am a deep critics of some American policies (as you can see in the many flamefests.. ahem.. threads I am involved).

But after seeing that exists a recipe for deep frying an entire turkey... well, call me a newbie Yankee!! woot

...it easy to buy me with food :oops:

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Dear God man, I like you. But peel off that PVC suit and check yourself. The power-projection thing ended much more recently than your timeline. Anything else is highly suspect.




The article said that only France and the UK currently has power projection capability. What I meant was that for the past 300-400 years thats basically been the case anyway.

[Lancero]

We know Eastern Europe was a totalitarian prison until the Nineties, but we forget that Mediterranean Europe (Greece, Spain, Portugal) has democratic roots going all the way back until, oh, the mid-Seventies; France and Germany's constitutions date back barely half a century, Italy's only to the 1940s, and Belgium's goes back about 20 minutes, and currently it's not clear whether even that latest rewrite remains operative. The U.S. Constitution is not only older than France's, Germany's, Italy's or Spain's constitution, it's older than all of them put together.




Portugal first constitution was aproved in 1822 - 35 years later than the US constitution.
Germany also had a constitution on the XIX century.
France first one was in 1791.
Naturally, they evolved to better ones and revisions were made.

Last time I checked the map, Portugal was still over 200kms away from the Mediterranean. Despite the proximity, we always were Atlantic in our economy, politics, etc.

That said, happy thanksgiving to yall. ;)

[Freibier]

Thanks for nothing and choke on that turkey p-)

[Buckeye67]

Except that it wasn't an american that wrote the article. :|

But feel free to rage against whatever you think you're raging against.

[Buckeye67]

Deep fried turkey > You.

[wilhelm]

Except that it wasn't an american that wrote the article. :|

But feel free to rage against whatever you think you're raging against.

He is a Canadian by birth who lives in America. He is also a noted US 'o phile (???!!!?)

What do you do with left-over Turkey?

[Buckeye67]

Btw, edited my post, so I can rage generally against whoever had written the article.

Happy?


You mean the post that reads exactly the same way it did when you posted it?

I'm delighted.

[Buckeye67]

He is a Canadian by birth who lives in America.

Regardless, one can hardly look at an article written by a canadian and proclaim that the only thing "America" has discovered is "arrogance".

Generally we have enough leftover turkey to eat for several days after Thanksgiving. :)

[Buckeye67]

Not "exactly".

Whatever you say, Betty.

(By the way - The Roman and Venetian Republics != "Italy".)

[wilhelm]

Regardless, one can hardly look at an article written by a canadian and proclaim that the only thing "America" has discovered is "arrogance".

Generally we have enough leftover turkey to eat for several days after Thanksgiving. :)

Ahhh, but I for one do not believe that whole "arrogance" thing. You did, afterall, also invent the Hula-Hoop.....:)

Do you make sandwiches, pies, casserole etc? Any good recipe's? And do you really eat deep fried turkey?

[Buckeye67]

Ahhh, but I do not believe that whole "arrogance" thing. You did, afterall, also invent the Hula-Hoop.....

Yeah, I was talking to Pollyanna there about the whole "arrogance" thing. That's why I brought up the fact that it wasn't an american who wrote the article to begin with (americaphile or not). It's quite a stretch of reasoning to go from "canadian writes article" to "America = arrogant". But what do I know.


Do you make sandwiches, pies, casserole etc? Any good recipe's? And do you really eat deep fried turkey?

Thanksgiving dinners vary from place to place, obviously, but on most tables you can find; turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, various other vegetables including: corn, green beans, squashes etc. The "traditional" dessert is pumpkin pie. Sandwiches are usually what the leftover turkey is used for. :)

[Buckeye67]

Look, I live present days enough to confirm that USA, by now, are arrogant.
Look around. Sad but true. Arrogant USA and a Canadian that tells me why I have to thank America.

Right, and noone else here has "live present days enough" to know that you're full of it.


I've nothing against Americans in sè, but what America is doing around the world today (economically, politically and militarly), makes me thank for nothing american.

Do tell, what is "America" doing (unilaterally) "around the world today" (that other countries aren't and/or haven't done) that is "arrogant".

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Pisa and Genoa were around before Venice to.

England has more or less had some form of democracy since the 8th century. Even if it was only made up of the nobility.

Kingdom of Jerusalem elected it's kings in the even of a monarch not having a direct heir

Holy Roman Empire elected the Emperor.

Even Saladin was elected.

Simple fact. Democracy is not a new thing. Many past and present nations have always generally had some form of democracy and freedom of speech. And European secularism goes a long long way back. Rome eventually granted it. Kingdom of Jerusalem had it under Baldwin IV and Saladin continued it. Monarch were forever arguing with the pope over matters of faith.

[wilhelm]

I don't necessarily agree with the article in it's entirety, but I do like a good turkey.

Would you say Thanksgiving is more widely celebrated, or more popular in the US than Christmas? Whilst I have travelled quite extensively, I have not visited you shores before. My impressions are from Hollywood and the Internet....p-)

Heheheh

[wilhelm]

Pisa and Genoa were around before Venice to.

England has more or less had some form of democracy since the 8th century. Even if it was only made up of the nobility.

Kingdom of Jerusalem elected it's kings in the even of a monarch not having a direct heir

Holy Roman Empire elected the Emperor.

Even Saladin was elected.

Simple fact. Democracy is not a new thing. Many past and present nations have always generally had some form of democracy and freedom of speech. And European secularism goes a long long way back. Rome eventually granted it. Kingdom of Jerusalem had it under Baldwin IV and Saladin continued it. Monarch were forever arguing with the pope over matters of faith.

Greece .... for the love of all that is good .... don't forget the Greeks!!!

This 3 way conversation is quite esoteric. Is that an echo I hear. Buck, are you ambidextorous?

[Buckeye67]

Not ambidextrous. But I spell better than Mindi. :)

Which, my PVC covered mp.net denizen, I don't remember the article saying that "America" invented "democracy", so I'm not sure what exactly your point is

[Buckeye67]

And a lot more, if you want.

That's where Italy and Italians come from.

;)

So I can quote you on saying that the modern nation of Italy (not to mention the italian people) comes specifically from the Roman Republic and the city-state of Venice?

Really? That's what you're saying?

[Buckeye67]

I don't necessarily agree with the article in it's entirety, but I do like a good turkey.

Would you say Thanksgiving is more widely celebrated, or more popular in the US than Christmas? Whilst I have travelled quite extensively, I have not visited you shores before. My impressions are from Hollywood and the Internet....p-)

Heheheh

I'd say they're fairly close in popularity but I reckon Christmas is held in slightly higher esteem.

[Buckeye67]

I think that's not the topic.

Only a thing:
USA is doing in 21th century things that other countries (Roman empire, Brithis empire, you say) done centuries ago. But they call it "domocracy exporting". The whole thing is "with us or against us".

This is arrogant.

Must I thank USA for doing that?
Because I can drink a Coke or eat a BigMac when/where I want I have to shut up and approve?

USA done many good things for us in the past, but they can't relax on it forever.

Btw, OT.

You're the one who strolled in lambasting "America" for being "arrogant", so I think asking you to support your "theory" with relevant examples isn't off-topic.

So provide some.

[Eztyga]

Thanksgiving dinners vary from place to place, obviously, but on most tables you can find; turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, various other vegetables including: corn, green beans, squashes etc. The "traditional" dessert is pumpkin pie. Sandwiches are usually what the leftover turkey is used for. :)

Pumpkin pie? Sounds like sh#t to me. As it is I have to smother pumpkin in gravy to stomach it, and that is saying a lot as I love veggies.

Had to laugh when I saw 'pumpkin pie'. One episode of 'Two Fat Ladies' they were making something with pumpkins, and they said,'Never let an American near a good pumpkin'. Or words to that effect. p-)

Ezy

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

One more thing.

The US has been around for what 230 odd years. Not bad. Not bad at all. Rome was around from around 500bc to 1453ad thats nearly 2000 years. 2000 years and it's never really died if you consider the pope is still around. England in the modern sense from 1066 to present.

Fact. Yes the US is a powerful nation militarily, economically, culturally, scientifically and politically. Yet it has not been challenged. It's existence has never really been put to the test.

When the US has a fight for it's very existence then we can judge it on how great it really is.

[Buckeye67]

I can pretty much guarantee that if you haven't had pumpkin pie - you can't really judge whether it's **** or not. :p

You won't need gravy, I guarantee. :)

[Buckeye67]

When the US has a fight for it's very existence then we can judge it on how great it really is.

We did that from 1775 to 1781, then again from 1812 to 1814 and then again from 1861 to 1865.

Next.

[Buckeye67]

I've answered that.

No, you haven't. You've made silly-arsed generalizations, but have yet to provide factual, specific examples to "prove" your "theory".

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

We did that from 1775 to 1781, then again from 1812 to 1814 and then again from 1861 to 1865.

Next.

Nah beg to differ. The British response to 1775-81 was half hearted at best. 1812-14 was nothing more then a little trade war. Even still by 1814 that little French dude in some island in the Med. England reigned supreme. I think if they wanted to they could have taken you. Remember you lot started that one. Then you had your little civil war. All significant events in your history no doubt. But was your existence in danger? not really.

[junglejim]

I've nothing against Americans in sè, but what America is doing around the world today (economically, politically and militarly), makes me thank for nothing american.


What America is doing now, is what other countries would do given the power and money... probably even more. Personally i lived in the US long enough not to generalize AMERICA = ARROGANT. You would actually be surprised how down to earth most of them are and they have a big heart. Yes even Californians :)

[Buckeye67]

Nah beg to differ. The British response to 1775-81 was half hearted at best. 1812-14 was nothing more then a little trade war. Even still by 1814 that little French dude in some island in the Med. England reigned supreme. I think if they wanted to they could have taken you. Remember you lot started that one. Then you had your little civil war. All significant events in your history no doubt. But was your existence in danger? not really.

You may beg to differ, but you'd be wrong.

[Buckeye67]

I think I just did argue it.

Well, I'm tired and can't be arsed to keep engaging in this stimulating multi-dimensional conversation about turkey, pumpkin pie and how AMERIKKKA IS SATAN.

G'night.

------------------------------------

v-Do tell where the United States has demanded the world be grateful to them.

[BugHunt]

What America is doing now, is what other countries would do given the power and money... probably even more. Personally i lived in the US long enough not to generalize AMERICA = ARROGANT. You would actually be surprised how down to earth most of them are and they have a big heart. Yes even Californians :)


Ahuh - and do other nationalities go around demanding the world be grateful for them?


I know a few americans all are good people infact some of the smartest and fittest i know.....

There worst government excesses and the outspoken "political" muppets you find on here and on say Fox news.....well the world might well be abetter place without them :roll:

[mas-36]

We did that from 1775 to 1781,
with a LOT of help coming from you know where...

then again from 1812 to 1814
We attempted an invasion of Canada which failed, fought minature naval battles in the Great lakes, beat off a bunch of drunken Scots wearing skirts in a muddy mosquito-infested swamp called New Orleans, and got Washington D.C. burnt down as a result. We were in danger?? More like we got our little butts paddled.

and then again from 1861 to 1865.

The war in which we really won completely by ourselves, mind you it was against our own brothers within a giant dysfunctional family, but I'm willing to grant that we were fighting for our existance then.

[junglejim]

Ahuh - and do other nationalities go around demanding the world be grateful for them?


I know a few americans all are good people infact some of the smartest and fittest i know.....

There worst government excesses and the outspoken "political" muppets you find on here and on say Fox news.....well the world might well be abetter place without them :roll:

Disagree, I actually think that a few are arrogant while most are good people.

But yes, you are correct, most other nationalities dont go around asking the world be thankful for them... they just colonize weaker states and enslave the populance.

And a piece of article written by one person, shouldn't be a basis for "AMERICA = ARROGANT" or "the world might be a better place without them"

[BugHunt]

Disagree, I actually think that a few are arrogant while most are good people.

And a piece of article written by one person, shouldn't be a basis for "AMERICA = ARROGANT" or "the world might be a better place without them"

No but there recent foreign policies mistakes and the murky motivations behind them might.




But yes, you are correct, most other nationalities dont go around asking the world be thankful for them... they just colonize weaker states and enslave the populance.

A recent example of that? Since WW2?

Beyond capitalist enslavement which many richer states seem to be doing atm i cant think of one direct invasion enslavement empire in tooth and claw....

[Lancero]

Can we all agree that codfish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacalhau)rules for Christmas? p-)

[Stonewall71]

Not many reasons to say thanks in the last 8 years at least...:roll:

[Stonewall71]

"Mistakes"

Circa 1.000.000 deaths in Iraq, after "Mission accomplished".
American, italian, iraqis... it doesn't matter, they're dead.

Little foreign policy "mistakes".


I think the correct term is "collateral damage"....

[junglejim]

A recent example of that? Since WW2?

Beyond capitalist enslavement which many richer states seem to be doing atm i cant think of one direct invasion enslavement empire in tooth and claw....


Ok got me there, other than what the Soviet Union did in the Cold War behind the Iron Curtain. Might not be enslavement per se, but Gulags are far worse I woul think


World will not better without americans, indeed.

But please, junglejim, it's not one article.
It's the road US had chosen from sept. 2001.
(Please, don't we start to talk 'bout who, and when, and where, and why, 'cause this will never end).

That road, IMO is paved with arrogance.

That's all. My opinion, ok?

Peace.

;)


The people in the US governmnet has been and are arrogant, that I agree. I just dont agree painting the entire US as arrogant based on what you see on TV and their politics.

[theholeinthedonut]

That's exactly what I'm trying to write.

The problem is that a few people like those made some 1.000.000 deaths "mistakes"

:roll:
Mind to provide us with some sources.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Wotan et al - calm down, this topic is in danger of being locked.

[theholeinthedonut]

Iraq, Iran, North-Korea, Ethiopia and Afghanistan are the only places justforeignpolicy seems to have detected a need to intervene. The solution for the conflict in afghanistan is, according to justforeignpolicy is this:

Quote:
A political solution is needed in Afghanistan that includes withdrawal of occupation troops. The impossibility of a military solution has been shown by the resurgence of the Taliban and the inability of the government to control anything outside the capital. Despite this, the United States is constructing “long-term” military bases inside Afghanistan and commanders are planning for a similarly long-term commitment of forces.

Afghanistan has been occupied by the United States and its allies in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) for five years - since the invasion in late 2001. There are 32,500 NATO troops in Afghanistan. Yet the U.S.-supported government of Hamid Karzai still does not control much outside the capital city, violence has increased and Taliban fighters have reportedly grown stronger and are winning the allegiance of more Afghans.

From limited press reports, we know that NATO forces have killed many Afghan civilians – recently at an increased rate. The United States and NATO have stepped up air attacks, which are notoriously inaccurate and carry a large toll for Afghan men, women and children on the ground.

As in Iraq, there is no military solution in Afghanistan. Attacks killing civilians, besides pointing out the human toll of this occupation, increase support for adversaries of the United States. Instead, a political solution that involves negotiations with the Taliban and a withdrawal of U.S. and NATO troops must be sought. Some countries within NATO recognize this, calling for an exit strategy. However, the leaders of the U.S. and the U.K. have said they will stay in Afghanistan for as long as “a generation.”

Also as in Iraq, the stated goal of this invasion and occupation has not been achieved. Osama bin Laden has not been brought to justice. Instead, another country has been denied its right to self-determination and its people have suffered tragic violence. It is time to end the occupation of Afghanistan.

/Unquote


Sorry Wotan, I really won't continue any discussion based on such distinguished, reliable and unbiased sources as justforeignpolicy.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Obviously I can't count deaths directly, and none of us can.

The amount of people deaths changes the US foreign policy disaster?

So why keep on quoting such a vastly over-inflated figure then?

Back on topic, now!

[Partial_Panel]

Many of the posts so far in this thread seem to bear out what Dennis Miller said back in 2003:

America is the most:
Loved & hated,
Admired & despised,
Feared & respected,
nation in the world.
Face it: We're Frank Sinatra:)!!

On a serious note:
This time of year, I not only give thanks for my own blessings here at home, but am also thankful for those, regardless of nationality, who are putting their lives on the line beside us, around the world.

[BugHunt]

Saw this and thought of this thread ;)

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/how_can_we_raise_awareness_in


Just think if those Darfur residents were more grateful and aware about the US, America might be in there helping them p-)


But you know what ill bet they all hate freedom and probably eat french fries or some such......[/miss carolina off]

[joka]

Lately I've been getting a lot of this dramaqueen vibe from the US. "Since you don't mention your gratitude every other sentence, I'm going to point out all the different ways in which we're awesome and you suck."

Thank you for the good stuff you have done though (which is a lot).

[timetraveller]

Saw this and thought of this thread ;)

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/how_can_we_raise_awareness_in


Just think if those Darfur residents were more grateful and aware about the US, America might be in there helping them p-)


But you know what ill bet they all hate freedom and probably eat french fries or some such......[/miss carolina off]

Miss Carolina Priceless , what ever happend to her after that national humiliation ?

Back to the Topic in hand ..

America has given use many delights over the years especially on the Big screen ...annd Small

THE Cinematic greats of the days gone by , to the Current breed who's films have brung enjoyment to the masses and will still continue to do so ..for many years to come .

On the Political side .. It's like a dj playing to a crowd in the club .. u cant please them all , That i know from experience .

[Mr.K]

Edit, way too sensitive comment for this thread.

[NavyTimes]

Many of the posts so far in this thread seem to bear out what Dennis Miller said back in 2003:

America is the most:
Loved & hated,
Admired & despised,
Feared & respected,
nation in the world.
Face it: We're Frank Sinatra:)!!

On a serious note:
This time of year, I not only give thanks for my own blessings here at home, but am also thankful for those, regardless of nationality, who are putting their lives on the line beside us, around the world.




Well said.

Other than that:

Whoooooaaaa, crazy thread.

[mxw99]

[quote=He219;2884338]World should give thanks for America (http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/americans-world-thanksgiving-1924033-europe-europeans)
MARK STEYN


Translate it into French and send to to LE MONDE.FR see if they
publish it.

[Hollis]

Sort of been following this thread, first comment is:

regardless of what country you are from, be proud of it and work to make it better.

As a "Yank'/member of the USA. I am proud at the positive contributions my country has made. I really hope we can do more. As far as the mistakes, again I will re-state "I really hope hope we can do more."


The world is only getting smaller, we really need to learn to live together and work together. The USA is not the problem, our collectively greed and inability to live together is!!!


Each one of us can make a difference, choose who you will serve, partisan political BS or making the world better.


After all the world is all we got.

[clean]

Thanks, Hollis.

[He219]

Wow, some of you should actually read the artice.
It's all in there; Greece, Democracy, Constitution etc ..

The cynics are completely missing the point, or denying it.
p-)

[Dercius]

Wooow, a very narcicistic egocentric article. I suppose that is what happens when all the history you study is only 300 years:):):):).

The rest of world history is learnt if you are lucky in a chunky holywood film scoring 0 in historical accuracy:):):)

Just joking.p-)

In Europe we thank the americans for the good things they have done, but we thank also the Atlandic Ocean, American Natives and Mexicans were not so lucky:):)

[Vorian]

but we forget that Mediterranean Europe (Greece, Spain, Portugal) has democratic roots going all the way back until, oh, the mid-Seventies;

Nice...a Portuguese already answered for Portugal. Just wanting to mention that Greece is a democracy since 1827.

Overall the article is not really good. And I am amzed that British don't feel offended about the first part that describes their "Christmas"

[chris450]

lol some good laughs there