Putin attacks 'jackal' opponents [Archive]

daily666

11-21-2007, 11:27 AM

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/bbc_logo.gif
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7105467.stm
Putin attacks 'jackal' opponents
Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused opposition politicians of scavenging like jackals for funds from foreign embassies.

He also accused the West of meddling in Russian politics, saying: "Those who confront us need a weak and ill state."

Mr Putin was addressing a crowd that carried banners praising him and urging him to continue leading Russia.

Though he quits the presidency next year, Mr Putin has indicated he will stay in politics - possibly as PM.

He has said he will head the list for the pro-Kremlin United Russia party in December's parliamentary polls, though he is not a party member and will not be obliged to take a seat in parliament.

His party has widespread support and is expected to win a huge majority.

Opposition and human rights groups have, however, accused Mr Putin of resurrecting Soviet-era practices to build an authoritarian, one-party state.

'Dirty tricks'

Thousands of Mr Putin's supporters packed a sports stadium on Wednesday to hear him speak.

Their banners praised the president and demanded Russia continue following his policies, while the venue's loudspeakers played patriotic songs from the Soviet era.

Mr Putin attacked Russia's opposition politicians, saying they were effectively the agents of foreign governments.

"Unfortunately there are still those people in our country who act like jackals at foreign embassies... who count on the support of foreign funds and governments but not the support of their own people," he said.

In an apparent reference to popular pro-Western movements in Ukraine and Georgia, he added: "They want to go out into the streets, they've learnt from Western specialists. They've trained in neighbouring republics."

Mr Putin said the opposition wanted to create a "disoriented, divided" Russia that would be vulnerable to "dirty tricks".

'Total renewal'

Mr Putin told the crowd they could look forward to the changes forthcoming parliamentary and presidential elections would bring.

"In the months to come we will have a total renewal of the top leadership of the state," he said.

He also criticised those who had governed Russia during the 1990s, and who he said were now seeking to return to power to "restore an oligarchic regime, based on corruption and lies".

Their names could be found among candidates and sponsors of some parties and "they will again cheat everyone" if they come to power, he said.

An audience member interviewed by the AFP news agency said: "It's painful to imagine life without Putin."

"We fear that without him it will be chaos," Kristina Rastvorova, a member of a pro-Putin youth movement said.

SOG

11-21-2007, 12:05 PM

"We fear that without him it will be chaos," Kristina Rastvorova, a member of a pro-Putin youth movement said.

interesting.

Igor01

11-21-2007, 12:09 PM

http://www.idiot.ru/images/Brezhnevutin.jpg

"I approve this thread".

Secretary General of the Party, Protector of Hydrocarbons, Father of the Russian Nation, Generalissimus Supremus of Imperial Defence Forces, Vladimir I, The Tzar of all Great, White and Small Russias and all Surfdoms, with a special associated protectorate of the Polish Federal Governship.

MZKT

11-21-2007, 12:29 PM

Well, Putins face should not coupled with Brezhnevs body.

It's not wrong what Putin says, but this personal cult and youth organizations around him is disgusting.

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 12:38 PM

Snoshi

11-21-2007, 12:40 PM

Well, Putins face should not coupled with Brezhnevs body.

It's not wrong what Putin says, but this personal cult and youth organizations around him is disgusting.

X2...
Putin Jugend is disgusting

Igor01

11-21-2007, 12:52 PM

It's not wrong what Putin says, but this personal cult and youth organizations around him is disgusting.

Agreed, these supposedly "grass-roots" oubursts of love and adoration for Putin are sickening, he is clearly positioning himself as a non-formal leader of the nation, one with the people regardless of his job status. His recent PR stunt in Krasnoyarsk when he "absolutely spontaneously" stopped to talk to some roadworkers and "just happened" to make some extremely important statements about the popular support giving him the moral right to conduct oversight of whoever will be in charge of Russia after his term is up makes me think that unless oil prices take a nosedive, Putin will become if not a formal monarch, but at least something akin to a CPSU Secretary General, a sacred untouchable symbol with powers above anything in the Constitution.

Could be a good thing too, in the long run, who knows. There are way to many hints that this idea is being actively tested in various mass media and popular blogs, watch Putin's rhetoric get progressively more hard-line as the crucial time of his presidential term comes close. We are sure to see some very interesting and probably unexpected moves from the man.

The thing is, the only two alternatives to Putin's "liberal hydrocarbon empire" is a rule by oligarchs or nationalist, the first will finish off Russia as a great country (almost did during Eltsin), the second one will likely transform from a much needed course for Russia's rebirth into a search for "those who stand in our way" and xenophoby.

intelligenzija

11-21-2007, 01:04 PM

Igor01

11-21-2007, 01:21 PM

I attended a conference of boris gryslov two days ago and I really disliked the whole United Russia thing.. I understand that Putin is important for the stability of the state but this is very sad at the same time.

Putin doesn't even pretend to think that there is nothing wrong with United Russia. In his "impromptu" episode in Krasnoyarsk he said openly that it's to amorphous, is lacking official ideology and is used by all kinds of opportunists and political scam artists for their own career and power gain. Then he bluntly added: "but the others are even worse", which is true to an extent.

You can be sure that once the direction of Putin's political aspirations is clear, he will transform the UR into whatever shape suits his ideas better. UR is basically the party of local bearaucrats who are not in the very least interested in instability, they will applaud any power reform as long as it keeps them employed and in control of their local principalities. Some argue, that current power layout of Russia has a lot more with state feudalism than any form of democracy, so crowning Putin a Tzar would only be an honest admission of the de-facto truth, and given the right circumstance would be welcome by a large proportion of the population.

drunken sailor

11-21-2007, 01:55 PM

Putin is crazy, In some news I read today he said he had to put the nuke forces on high alert to counter threats from Nato countries that border Russia. The guy is out of his mind makeing statements like that.

FutureGrunt

11-21-2007, 02:24 PM

TheBelgian

11-21-2007, 02:29 PM

To counter a threat with a threat? Yes, yes he must be crazy!.....

What threat did NATO make!?

intelligenzija

11-21-2007, 02:30 PM

http://www.russiatoday.ru/employee/27 some more or less interesting opinions!

drunken sailor, statements like that are pure gold for the media! He porpably just wants to improve the defence abilities not to be hostile..
But that's a different story.

Kilgor

11-21-2007, 02:41 PM

A cult of personality, and denouncing opponents as agents of foreign intelligence services.

Old habits are hard to kick it seems.

Igor01

11-21-2007, 02:58 PM

A cult of personality, and denouncing opponents as agents of foreign intelligence services.

Old habits are hard to kick it seems.

Please. Uncle Joe cult was the real thing while the National Leader of the Russian Federation's cult is a pure buffonade at this point aimed at scoring political points.

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 03:17 PM

Please. Uncle Joe cult was the real thing while the National Leader of the Russian Federation's cult is a pure buffonade at this point aimed at scoring political points.

Just curious: Is is safe to joke about Putin in Russia? I am thinking not only about thugs and their threats but also about an attempt by the FSB in Novosibirsk to have the election commission there ban anecdotes about Vladimir Putin as “illegal agitation activity”.

Igor01

11-21-2007, 03:35 PM

Just curious: Is is safe to joke about Putin in Russia? I am thinking not only about thugs and their threads but also about an attempt by the FSB in Novosibirsk to have the election commission there ban anecdotes about Vladimir Putin as “illegal agitation activity”.

Despite of what the western media and some Russian "human rights" organizations would have you believe, the death squads and men in long black leather coates are not running amok in the country. Although the prevailing tone in the press is not anti-Putin (understandably so, with 84% approval rating), there are tons of media outlets attacking Putin and UR from all sides of the political spectrum, from National Bolsheviks to the extreme pro-west Union of Right Forces. I am not familiar with the Novosibirsk incident you are referring to, if you have a link, feel free to PM me.

Having said that, there's no denying that Putin & Co. are heavily utilizing the administrative resources available to them. There are reports that in some regions some local beaurocrats are obligated to formally join UR and vote accordingly, I've seen similar reports from one University where the teachers are "strongly encouraged" to join UR. I also have no doubt that they are using budget funds to finance Nashi, The Young Guards etc.

Clearly, that's not a democratic way of doing it by any stretch of imagination. But to suggest that this media circus is akin to Stalin's reign of terror is just bizzare.

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 04:19 PM

Despite of what the western media and some Russian "human rights" organizations would have you believe...
(...)
Clearly, that's not a democratic way of doing it by any stretch of imagination. But to suggest that this media circus is akin to Stalin's reign of terror is just bizzare.

I was actually curious about "freedom of jokes" when I asked that question. I was not suggesting anything other than this: if there is no such freedom than a buffonade is no longer just a buffonade. That's it.

And thanks for your answer.

The very first two top results of googling "putin jokes" are these:
http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2007/11/window-on-eurasia-is-fsb-assuming.html
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2007/11/03/putin_jokes_apparently_not_funny_to_some/7900/
The first one refers to the Novosibirsk incident. And don't blame me for the link choices - these are truly random ones.

Igor01

11-21-2007, 04:37 PM

I was actually curious about "freedom of jokes" when I asked that question. I was not suggesting anything other than this: if there is no such freedom than a buffonade is no longer just a buffonade. That's it.

Sorry for misunderstanding your question and thanks for the links. The article doesn't give much info about the context of the Novosibirsk incident but from my everyday observations I'd say it was probably more to do with pre-election mud slinging. There are lots of jokes and caricatures in the media and on the net and I haven't seen any attempts by the authorities to shut them down (not that they I would completely rule such incidents out just because I haven't heard of any).

You just have to understand that the overwhelming majority of Russians either approve of Putin or too busy going about their daily lives to care. With the lack of suppressed protest feelings you can't expect a huge outpouring of satire directed at Putin, this is simply not what the market wants. I bet you any money that if Putin plays his cards right, in a few years he can pull off full a blown restoration of monarchy, it will not be opposed by the majority of common folks and what's more importantly, supported by beaurocracy.

Digimon

11-21-2007, 04:38 PM

Just curious: Is is safe to joke about Putin in Russia? I am thinking not only about thugs and their threats but also about an attempt by the FSB in Novosibirsk to have the election commission there ban anecdotes about Vladimir Putin as “illegal agitation activity”.

Attempt by FSB? FSB has no business watching over electoral violations.

Although I am not familiar with the situation, I think I can explain what must have happened. In an effort to curb negative campaigning, the United Russia party has passed an amendment to the electorate law which forbids any party participating in the electoral campaign to attack and criticize any of the competing parties, as well as employees of the federal government, in their agitation materials. This was an attempt to make the parties focus on their positive programs in the advertising materials. The amendment was very controversial, and although, in theory, it is meant to make campaigning more constructive and less of a mudslinging exercise, it is too ambiguous and works in favor of the United Russia, since ambiguities most likely will be interpreted by the courts in their favor.

So, if an anecdote with a negative or critical implication towards any of the political parties participating in the election was published in a newspaper, leaflet, or advertised in TV campaign ads during the official election period, then it falls under the law, and constitutes an electoral violation. This, however, does not mean that you can’t tell anecdotes about Putin or anyone else - you can’t do it only if you are a participant of the electoral campaign, and you publishing them and paying for them as a part of your electoral campaign during a particular period of time, i.e. elections.

In what represented the most recent aggressive response to jokes about the Russian president, a Communist Party (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2007/11/03/putin_jokes_apparently_not_funny_to_some/7900/#) leader was targeted by the investigation after placing the comedic material in a party newsletter, The Independent said Saturday.

Igor01

11-21-2007, 04:48 PM

I wonder if this is the collage in question (although this one appeared in Saratov, not Novosibirsk, and the controversy was initiated by the local UR official, not FSB) :

http://img.lenta.ru/news/2007/09/04/saratov/picture.jpg

Switek

11-21-2007, 04:51 PM

IMO Putin is the only true european in these days. Submitted to none.
A man that has no fear to say what he thinks.

May Italian politicians be like him.

Seems you have never heard about Kaczyński twins...

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 05:06 PM

Do you mean one of these?
http://hotimg3.fotki.com/b/99_234/51_136/Mleczko.jpg

Digimon

11-21-2007, 06:08 PM

I also have no doubt that they are using budget funds to finance Nashi, The Young Guards etc.

Prior to March 2006, there was little information about the financing of Nashi. According to a Kommersant interview with one former member of Nashi, who was responsible for keeping accounting books, the money was delivered in bags full of cash with little accountability given to its appropriation. In March 2006, a think tank called “State Club” was created. Described as the Fund for the Preparation of Cadre Reserve (Фонд подготовки кадрового резерва) it began to finance these organizations legally – yet it remained unclear where the money that fill the fund come from. In 2007, the fund got the state financing via the allocation of state funds to NGOs done by the Public Chamber. So, now the financing of these organizations is both legal and legitimate – the money are from the budget, but the allocation of money is done by a public civil institution – Public Chamber. Since the composition of the Public Chamber is not political – 1/3 is appointed by the President, 1/3 is proposed by the civil organizations or NGOs, and the rest are elected by these 2/3s – the state avoids the problem of being a direct sponsor of these organizations. In fact, if I recall correctly, The Republican International Institute which was involved in the training of the youth groups who were behind the color revolutions (Georgia, Serbia, Ukraine, and Haiti, although in the last case the revolution turned bloody), does get private and direct state financing, which raises the question of the US state sponsorship of these events. By introducing the mediation of a formally independent civil institution like the Public Chamber (which, to be fair does give funds to Anti-Kremlin opposition youth groups like Masha Gaidar’s organization), the financing of Nashi seems more legitimate than the financing of similar pro western organizations by the US. Smart pencils…

Source: http://www.gosclub.ru/about/docs/140157718 (State Club website)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Chamber_of_Russia (Wiki on Public Chamber)
Source: http://www.oprf.ru/rus/about (Public Chamber website)

Digimon

11-21-2007, 06:16 PM

I wonder if this is the collage in question (although this one appeared in Saratov, not Novosibirsk, and the controversy was initiated by the local UR official, not FSB) :...

http://img.lenta.ru/news/2007/09/04/saratov/picture.jpg

In fact, the legal case against the editor and the newspaper for this collage was shut down by the newly formed Investigative Committee, for the lack of crime content, i.e. it represented no legal violation of any kind. I was happy to hear that...

I think, as clear from the link provided, the issue referred to is the publication of anecdotes in a communist newspaper by Zuganov. What The Independent is not mentioning is that there is an electoral law that applies in this case - it is not a reaction to jokes about president, it is a reaction to illegal agitation during an electoral campaign. The implication is that it is a form of censorship and restriction of the freedom of speech in favor of the ruling administration - this is not so, Communists are suing Channel One on similar grounds, and any other party can sue for being criticized within the electoral campaign. It is a ridiculous electoral law... but it is not what The Independent presents it to be…

In what represented the most recent aggressive response to jokes about the Russian president, a Communist Party (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2007/11/03/putin_jokes_apparently_not_funny_to_some/7900/#) leader was targeted by the investigation after placing the comedic material in a party newsletter, The Independent said Saturday.

Source: http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/..._to_some/7900 (http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Quirks/2007/11/03/putin_jokes_apparently_not_funny_to_some/7900/)

Digimon

11-21-2007, 07:00 PM

A cult of personality, and denouncing opponents as agents of foreign intelligence services.

Old habits are hard to kick it seems.

Not sure if it is old habits, or an inability to grasp that no political party within a democracy has a monopoly on truth. Georgia, where the president accuses the opposition of treason, Ukraine, where the Our Ukraine party accuses the Party of Regions of treason and the betrayal of Ukrainian sovereignty, and even US where the Democrats are often portrayed as the Osama Bin Laden party by the Fox, and others – all of these cases represent the denial of the very legitimacy of the opposition. These are not habits… rather they represent a particular totalitarian mentality, which we can all share, perhaps, to a different degree…. As Michel Foucault once pointed out, first you have to kill the fascist in yourself…

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 07:30 PM

There was one other fragment of Putin's speech that made me smile - when he was talking about those political bankrupts who left the country full of shortages in the 80s: lack of meat, sugar, salt and matches.

I can understand the first two items, but the symbolic shortages of salt and matches? I remember the stories of matches being split in four, somewhere in Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian - or Polish for that matter - swamps, in the 30s. Tell me that this was a slight exaggeration on part of Putin?

But even if this was still true - I wonder what impact such symbolic match could have on the audience of teenagers who most likely do not even know what a match is in the age of the electronic gadgets?

FelixA9

11-21-2007, 08:57 PM

IMO Putin is the only true european in these days. Submitted to none.
A man that has no fear to say what he thinks.

May Italian politicians be like him.

I'm pretty sure they were saying the same about Stalin and Hitler as well. :|

Mr.K

11-21-2007, 09:03 PM

But even if this was still true - I wonder what impact such symbolic match could have on the audience of teenagers who most likely do not even know what a match is in the age of the electronic gadgets?

Youth in general doesn't vote much, the difference is made by the adults and old people who consider the election day as their "big night out".

Mr.K

11-21-2007, 09:09 PM

MZKT - you were faster, but I will post it anyway. :-)

This is a photoshop trick. I recognize the Brezhnev's suit of medals here, among them - Miner of Merit of Polish People's Republic. :-)

http://hotimg8.fotki.com/a/99_234/51_136/54ec102ae4d89de4ce2fbddb7-21-1.jpg

Look at the audience of that rally! Even Karzai made it illegal to bring children to any public events.

Kazai was probably told to do so in case of sucide attacks that would kill children.
What is wrong with you , there are political youth organisations worldwide, even in the FREE Western World, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Example : http://www.youngliberals.ca/default_e.aspx
And yes they do rallies, and volounteer for elections and yell the party leader's name.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

11-21-2007, 09:12 PM

A cult of personality, and denouncing opponents as agents of foreign intelligence services.

Old habits are hard to kick it seems.

Well the West has openly been critical of Russia in it's democratic process, NATO expansion and so forth.

And ahm being a former KGB dude. I'd think he'd know a thing or to.

As for the personality cult. Lets see, He brought stability, economic growth, worked hard at solving Chechnya and is making the country feel good about itself again. Yep that would develop a personality cult.

Kilgor

11-21-2007, 09:19 PM

Well the West has openly been critical of Russia in it's democratic process, NATO expansion and so forth.

And ahm being a former KGB dude. I'd think he'd know a thing or to.

As for the personality cult. Lets see, He brought stability, economic growth, worked hard at solving Chechnya and is making the country feel good about itself again. Yep that would develop a personality cult.

Of course Putin has brought stability and economic growth to the country, no one would deny that but it appears once again Russians are placing more faith in strong men that strong institutions. Russia has had some painful examples of autocracy in the past...

Putin's comments about opposition parties being infested with spies and foreign agents is just laughingly predictable, textbook paranoia for public consumption. Its the same old line rolled out before before the many show trials of the soviet union.

Mishka Zubov

11-21-2007, 10:24 PM

Kazai was probably told to do so in case of sucide attacks that would kill children.
What is wrong with you , there are political youth organisations worldwide, even in the FREE Western World, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Example : http://www.youngliberals.ca/default_e.aspx
And yes they do rallies, and volounteer for elections and yell the party leader's name.

True. And their status sets the age limits between 14 and 25 years of age. But when you look at the videos, picture galleries, lists of post-secondary clubs or Riding Associations you will notice that there are not that many 14 or 16 years olds - practically these are mostly college students. And this is fine, this is the best age to become politically involved. Saving the world and all those democratic and liberal ideas. We all went through it.

Quoting YLC FAQ:

3. How big is the YLC?

The Young Liberals of Canada has 155 Post-Secondary Institution Young Liberal clubs throughout the country. We also have a presence in nearly every one of Canada’s 301 ridings. It has been estimated that the YLC has nearly 60-80 000 members at various periods. The problem I have with that picture I posted was that these are just kids. I was referring to Karzai, because that's a familiar picture of "pioneers", or whatever they are called under any other regime of the world. The Afghanis used to horde their kids to collect audiences for their VIPs, with one very unfortunate result.

Kids in Poland used to wave flags on May 1st celebrations or draw pictures of American bombers dispersing American beetle over Polish potato fields, etc. Generally, using kids for propaganda purposes is wrong - be it in China, Africa, South America .. or Russia.

Mu-Meson

11-22-2007, 12:27 AM

Kazai was probably told to do so in case of sucide attacks that would kill children.
Either that or those sick twisted people would use children AS the bomb, like that Bhutto bombing did.

DRA

11-22-2007, 12:54 AM

Just curious: Is is safe to joke about Putin in Russia?

daily jokes, photoshops and caricatures about Putin
http://www.vladimirvladimirovich.com/anekdot.php

"Free word"
http://www.slovods.narod.ru/antiputin.html

Not humor but very very anti-Putin, for the laughs you can check out their visits counter at the bottom of the page.
'Anti-Putinism" is not popular in Russia is not because people are afraid of something or someone, it is because Putin is very popular with about 84% percent of voting Russians.

Think about it: US is governed by the person who has "won" very questionable elections and is supported by less than 1/3 of its country's population and yet you consider it a Democracy...
Countries like Venezuela, Russia, Belarus, etc where leaders are elected and supported by the overwhelming majority of population are portrayed as dictatorships...
It is just one of the many reasons why West is loosing its legitimacy around the world and becoming known as nothing more than a gathering of hypocrytical bigots.

Of course there are those in Russia who don't like Putin, but you can find miserable pricks even at the PlayBoy mansion party. The thing is that Putin is great for Russia and Russians see it.
He is smart, strong, tough and cold when he has to be, admit it - you would love to have a leader like that.

PsychoMantis

11-22-2007, 01:00 AM

Of course there are those in Russia who don't like Putin, but you can find miserable pricks even at the PlayBoy mansion party. The thing is that Putin is great for Russia and Russians see it.
He is smart, strong, tough and cold when he has to be, admit it - you would love to have a leader like that.
I agree. I dont see whats the problem of haivng him as a leader for an extend amount of peroid. If the Russians want him to stay,who are we to say "no"? I admire the man,Personally.

Litti

11-22-2007, 02:33 AM

It might work for them now but what happens when this current democracy has been stripped down and the next leader is a total douche and no-one can vote him out?

Usually things end up badly when one generation has decided that it is better to live under an authoritarian system instead of trying to improve their democratic system.

No, I take it back, not usually.....ALWAYS!!!!!!

MZKT

11-22-2007, 10:12 AM

Putin is surely not the great leader as he portrays himself.
He didn't punished the robbers of Yelzin clan, he didn't fought corruption, he concentrates too much on energy exports and leads the country is some sort of slightly more industrial Saudi-Arabia, with oligarchs instead of princes, instead of investing oil money in processing industry

On the other side the alternatives are just horrible:
Kasparov, a member of a militant US think tank, and obviously more loyal to USA then to Russia.
Kasyanov who already failed once and has no public support
Bukovski, a self-proclaimed candidate who admitted to hate Russia (but run for presidency of a country he hates)
Shirinowski, a clown.

The only real opposition to Putin is KPRF, but it lost much of it's power from the 90s.

CPL Trevoga

11-22-2007, 10:23 AM

Oh horrors. Youth joining political process, instead of binge drinking and smoking pot. During communism there was pioneers, great organizations to develop young people into responsible citizens. They should bring it back.

Snoshi

11-22-2007, 10:26 AM

intelligenzija

11-22-2007, 10:27 AM

pioneers = boyscouts + communist ideology

CPL Trevoga

11-22-2007, 10:36 AM

pioneers = boyscouts + communist ideology

Main emphasis was on being responsible citizens and students. Komsomol is more of communist organization. Pioneers are too young to understand complexities of communist ideology or give a **** for that matter.

Don't be silly Snoshi, no cult of personality stuff. I still have Lenin images overload.

Stonewall71

11-22-2007, 10:39 AM

IMO Putin is the only true european in these days. Submitted to none.
A man that has no fear to say what he thinks.

May Italian politicians be like him.

May Most of politicians be like him!!!!woot

Slavja Putin!

FelixA9

11-22-2007, 11:30 AM

Bukovski, a self-proclaimed candidate who admitted to hate Russia (but run for presidency of a country he hates)

Hell look at all the people who live in the US and hate it.

FelixA9

11-22-2007, 11:31 AM

Igor01

11-22-2007, 12:32 PM

Hitler Youth anybody?

Hitler youth is only that when there is a Hitler. Putin as a "stongman national leader" is a farce, so is all this PR buffonade.

CPL Trevoga

11-22-2007, 01:10 PM

Hitler Youth anybody?

Hitler Youth was para-military organization. I don't think you know the subject well enough to discuss it.

Mr.K

11-22-2007, 08:41 PM

Kids in Poland used to wave flags on May 1st celebrations or draw pictures of American bombers dispersing American beetle over Polish potato fields, etc. Generally, using kids for propaganda purposes is wrong - be it in China, Africa, South America .. or Russia.

Yes and, and in 1995 where there was another referendum about the sovereignty of Quebec, i remember clearly how our class ( we were a mixed class of 10-12 years olds) was split up in between that those who were against (someone even brought a NO billboard) and those who were for.
I don't see anything wrong with youth being politicized, the sooner the better they become responsible citizens, participating in the democratic process, instead of being hipsters who were indoctrinated by the media that politics aren't cool.
Right now in Quebec some students went on strike (which will delay their semester), why did the strike happened? Because those who didn't want one never showed up for the vote.

asch

11-23-2007, 12:39 AM

Hitler Youth anybody?

Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
p-)

Doublethinker

11-23-2007, 01:42 AM

Despite of what the western media and some Russian "human rights" organizations would have you believe, the death squads and men in long black leather coates are not running amok in the country. Although the prevailing tone in the press is not anti-Putin (understandably so, with 84% approval rating), there are tons of media outlets attacking Putin and UR from all sides of the political spectrum, from National Bolsheviks to the extreme pro-west Union of Right Forces.

If you take a look at TV channels, the media outlets where more than 70% of the population gets its news from, there are NONE attacking Putin or UR.

The only ones, that retain some sort of independence are marginal newspapers (mostly moscow ones, it gets even worse in the regions, where, as usual, there are excessive bends on the local level) with circulation of something like 10 000, and an old radio station Echo Moskvy, which still has an old-skool liberal ideology, which is too famous and less compromised to be dealt with quickly, as it was done with NTV.

Doublethinker

11-23-2007, 02:19 AM

Doublethinker

11-23-2007, 02:25 AM

Hitler Youth was para-military organization. I don't think you know the subject well enough to discuss it.

Actually Putin's youth members participated in at least one organized assault, which became famous, because attackers soon turned into prey - they tried organizing a mass attack against Limonov using rotten eggs and sticks (throwing them from afar), but were counter-attacked by Limonov supporters and quickly routed using non-lethal guns, like "Osa", and regular hand-to-hand fighting.

Moreover, my friend while sitting with a girlfriend in the Chistye prudy park (a famous gathering place for all kinds of freaks like goths, dead-metallists, etc.) was approached by a group of bald and heavily-built young men, wearing united Russia T-shirts, who started questioning him whether he was a goth, a patriot and what political views he had.

ex-cop

11-23-2007, 03:09 AM

I saw this conference when Putin said these words. It made me sick, it was awfull, it looked like in Soviet times. I didn't like Putin, but after that United Russia conference i began to hate him.

There was video report from Mihail Kalashnikov he congratulated and supported Putin. It was sad! Then i saw Anatoliy Kvotchur one of the greatest test pilots who also supported f...cking Putin's way.

And now walking on the streets i'm tired to see United Russia propaganda and agitation on every building. This's awfull disgusting and sometimes shocking

Jippo

11-23-2007, 03:29 AM

Good luck to everyone in Russia!

Even if Putin keeps the nation and himself together and not mess everything, I think Russians should already think about the person who comes after him. Political structures Putin is creating will most likely overlive his reign. Tyranny can be a good thing with good tyrant, but with a bad one....

Mishka Zubov

11-23-2007, 04:20 AM

Yes and, and in 1995 where there was another referendum about the sovereignty of Quebec, i remember clearly how our class ( we were a mixed class of 10-12 years olds) was split up in between that those who were against (someone even brought a NO billboard) and those who were for.
I don't see anything wrong with youth being politicized, the sooner the better they become responsible citizens, participating in the democratic process, instead of being hipsters who were indoctrinated by the media that politics aren't cool.
Right now in Quebec some students went on strike (which will delay their semester), why did the strike happened? Because those who didn't want one never showed up for the vote.

Wow! Nice opening for a philosophical essay. :-)

Your referendum example seems to suggest that politics is inescapable - irrespectively of age. I cannot argue with that; I can only point out that Quebec problems have been more than just political in nature but deeply seated in a social fabric of the population - with home, school, states (Q vs. C) and political ideas and parties competing for hearts and minds. The problem was too important to be ignored even by kids. But however painful this experience has been, it has still been a democratic process. Easy for me to say because I was not involved in those events; just watching them in TV and hoping for the best.

But I still argue that kids of young age are too vulnerable and too easily becoming indoctrinated and manipulated by sometimes dangerous ideas. It is, to say the least, unethical to use them as political tools. And I am not afraid to mention in one breath "Hitler Jugend" (yes, I am well aware of so-called Godwin's Law, but I will still say this, damn it), Cambodian Khmer Rouge, Chinese Red Guard, or children-soldiers in Sierra Leone and elsewhere in Africa.

The softer versions of those were Soviet Pioneers and all sorts of scouting organizations. Where one draws a line between channeling the natural youth energy into some positive activity, self-reliance, morality, patriotism, nationalism, religious fever, incubation of political or military cadres and straight forward political indoctrination?

What touches me most - of all the bad symptoms of the latter - was turning kids against their own parents, like denouncing their own parents by Chinese kids during some political rallies of Red Guard - with known effects of public humiliation of the parents, imprisonment and worse. Some of you fondly recall "pioneers" - with their summer camps in Artek and all such niceties. That may be but I would be surprised if they said that that organization was benign, completely apolitical.

Poland had its own version of "pioneers", a pseudo-scouting OH ZMP (Scouting Organization of Polish Youth Association), in the years 1950-1956, where political indoctrination of kids was part of the big plans of Polish communist party. These were the dark times in the long tradition of scouting in Poland (1918-till now). The campaign for converting plots of peasants into state-run cooperatives (a'la Soviet kolkhoz and sovkhoz) was still under way, the secret police were rampant, the state war against religion was in full blast, and the communist party was hoping to convert the kids into spies against their parents.

The history lessons at schools supported official party line. As I already mentioned - kids were taught anti-American, anti-Tito, anti-Western propaganda. Pitiful school "wall gazettes" were drawn by kids - showing glorious Polish reconstruction process, Polish-Soviet fraternity and Americans infecting Polish potato fields. Some teachers were brave enough to teach two version of history: an official one in classroom, another during some clandestine "botanical" trips to countryside - being fully aware that some of the kids had been already indoctrinated and that they had to be careful around them. The scout meetings - with all those niceties of wearing uniforms and red scarves, camping, singing and campfires - had also a significant portion of pro-communist indoctrination.

So again, I shudder seeing kids waving flags and I say - leave the kids alone.

Digimon

11-23-2007, 03:33 PM

Yes and, and in 1995 where there was another referendum about the sovereignty of Quebec, i remember clearly how our class ( we were a mixed class of 10-12 years olds) was split up in between that those who were against (someone even brought a NO billboard) and those who were for.
I don't see anything wrong with youth being politicized, the sooner the better they become responsible citizens, participating in the democratic process, instead of being hipsters who were indoctrinated by the media that politics aren't cool.
Right now in Quebec some students went on strike (which will delay their semester), why did the strike happened? Because those who didn't want one never showed up for the vote.

The problem with engaging children in politics is that they lack the critical skill necessary to assess data, draw founded inferences, project options, and foresee long term consequences. The reason why children lack certain rights – like the rights to buy tobacco, alcohol, engage in ***, etc… is precisely because they lack the ability to make autonomous rational judgments – therefore, they must be protected from the irrational decisions they are bound to make. Children cannot vote, precisely because they cannot make responsible choices at this age, anymore than mental patients can make them. To fill a stadium with flag waiving kids, is simply to use the kids for one’s own political purposes, and morally it is little different from filling it with mentally retarded adults.

There is another aspect that makes a difference in whether it is morally legitimate to engage children in politics. Children are a particularly vulnerable demographic group – they are insecure, easily manipulated, and susceptible to peer-pressure. In other words, they are susceptible to indoctrination – an uncritical and persistent endorsement of a view that lacks the correct causal history (brainwashing is often defined as having the wrong causal history, since a belief is acquired not because it is supported by good reasons and rational reflection, but because it has been repeated too many times, or because the person accepts it on faith due to emotional manipulation of fears, anxieties, etc…) Brainwashing is effective under conditions of isolation, information management, and peer pressure – hence the typical isolationist form of religious sects. Nashi, as well as some Bible camps in the US and Islamic camps in Palestine and Syria use a similar form of political indoctrination – relying on isolation of kids with instructors in camps, one sided presentation of religious or political views, and peer pressure from the homogenous collective.

The example you have brought up is somewhat different and represents a different approach to education – liberal education. Kids were not isolated for any extended period of time. They were split into two groups with different views, and, I suspect, were given an opportunity to argue for their case and address criticisms. I also suspect that the instructor did not impose a particular solution to this debate, for, or against separation. In this case children a) are not manipulated for any political purpose by the people in charge of their welfare, and b) not indoctrinated, but taught to assess political arguments critically and scrutinize their own opinions as well as the opinions of their opponents. The instructors were not concerned with furthering their own political goals, but with teaching kids important critical skill, whatever the views they ultimately choose to accept – they were concerned with kid’s welfare. Hence, there is nothing morally suspect in what has been done in your class in 1995.

Ultimately, one can engage students into political debates and discussions as long as they are done for educational purposes aimed at improving the critical skills of students, and hence are concerned with their welfare. Nashi violates this deontological standard by exploiting kid’s vulnerabilities for political ends of a particular political party. Hence, from a deontological point of view, this practice is morally suspect and ethically unacceptible.