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RavenW
05-17-2004, 11:34 PM
Hello everyone :)

I've been reading this forum for some time (6 month) before I decided to join the discussion. Here is the outline for my project and I would like to hear from you, what do you think? I tried to be as balance and objective as person can be...

This is just outline and some personal thoughts about the conflict, but it would be nice to hear some critics and I would like to know, do you agree with me on the approach how to DEFINE and analyze the conflict/problem.

Also, if you have some questions about specific areas like lets say Chapter 5 section h. I would love to answer it as fully as I understand it myself.
Thus, Ch. 5 Sec. h. would be CHAPTER "History of Zionism" Section h. Jewish pioneers before Zionism (1860). And so on...

You got the idea. Just give me the part that interest you the most and I think we can find un-biased truth to that particular episod. I also interested particularly in your opinion about thoughts in Chapter 20 "ISLAMO-FASCISM" and CHAPTER 19 "So WHO IS RIGHT in the conflict? (Personal thoughts on the conflict/Personal life experience).

And finally, why do I bother with this project in the first place? Because I found the vast majority of such topics to be unorganized and without some principal structure and formal aproach. Plus I was very interesated to learn the truth about facts on the ground and unfortunately found out that there were almost no good (truthful/unbiased) sources on the subject.

I hope to bring some sense of formal discussion to such explosive topic.

Ok, here is the project itself. Thank You. :)


ISRAEL and PALESTINE (The Conflict)

The look of bystander

Outline/plan and chapter content


1. INTRODUCTION.

a. What this conflict is about?
b. Why this conflict is important?
c. Benefits of resolving the conflict for people of the region.
d. Benefits of resolving the conflict for people outside the region.
e. Disadvantages of resolving the conflict for people of the region.
f. Disadvantages of resolving the conflict for people outside the region.
g. Why there is a grim perspective of resolving the conflict in the near future?


2. DEFINITIONS of TERMS and CONCEPT APPROACH.

I. NECESSARY DEFINITIONS (What is _? For our discussion lets define terminology). Write about the IMPORTANCE OF DEFINITION and RIGHT TERMINOLOGY for our study.
a. Happiness.
b. Peace.
c. Absence of Peace.
d. War.
e. Spiral (cycle) of violence/tit-for-tat - why it does not apply for this conflict.
f. Terrorism/Acts of Terror.
g. Guerrilla attacks/Acts of War.
h. Collateral damage.
i. Codes of War.
j. Bias.
k. Independence.
l. Anti-Semitism.
m. Occupation.
n. Liberation.
o. Disputed territory.
p. Sovereign.
q. Democracy.
r. Nationalism.
s. Prejudice.
t. Freedom of Speech.
u. Torture.
v. Beatings/Mistreatment.
w. Equality/Equal treatment/Equal opportunities - difference.
x. Racism.
y. Xenophobia.
z. Tolerance.
aa. Intolerance.
bb. Fundamental moral values/Core human values.
cc. Assumption about human nature.
dd. Assumption about people in general.
ee. Culture.
ff. Civilization.
gg. Racism.
hh. Anti-Semitism.
ii. Progress/progressive.
jj. Natural as in “Typical thing”.
kk. Reaction as in “opposite of progress”.
ll. Nation, People, National identity.
mm. Crime. (Traditional definition).
nn. Crime against Humanity.
oo. War Crime.
pp. Genocide.
qq. Ethnic cleansing.
rr. Pogrom.
ss. Propaganda as a tool/War of information.
tt. Positive aspects of propaganda (examples).
uu. Negative aspects of propaganda (examples).
vv. Brainwashing.
ww. Basic Fundamental Laws of Human beings and Human Rights.
xx. Laws of War/Laws of Peace – difference.
yy. Normal as in Normal person.
zz. Abnormal as in “abnormal person” (e.g. full of hatred by brainwashing and propaganda).
aaa. Ignorant or ignorance.
bbb. Normal society.
ccc. Abnormal society (do they exist? See System of Coordinates).
ddd. Cancer of society.
eee. Savagery and barbarism.
fff. Immoral as immoral person.
ggg. Moral as moral person.
hhh. Problems of defining moral of society.
iii. Judeo-Christian values/culture/traditions.
jjj. American ideology/American values.
kkk. Evil/evilness as in infanticide.
lll. Necessary evil as in “necessary sacrifice such that the goodness’ would prevail” (aside question of possibility of reaching goodness by compromise with evil and the question of necessary evil… how necessary is it?).
mmm. Minimize as in “minimize impact or minimize casualties”.
nnn. Justice/just cause.
ooo. Terrorist/Militant/Guerrilla/Soldier - difference.
ppp. Soldier (army) – definition.
qqq. Armed combatant – definition.
rrr. Unarmed protestor –definition (with examples of real life deadliness of unarmed protestor shielding a terrorists from SWAT sniper). (Negative image of unarmed protestor) Absence of protestors or lack of substantial protest during such events as Holocaust, genocide of Christian minority in Middle East, genocide in Rwanda, human rights abuses in Sudan, Algeria and Niger. Question of absence of voice of protest against genocide carried out by Saddam Hussein regime during his dictatorship.
sss. Unarmed protestor – definition of positive unarmed protestor. (The legality of protest as well as administrative process involving a nonviolent protest, its activity and means to carry it out).
ttt. Legal as in “legal purchase of land”, “legal act of war”.
uuu. Illegal as in “illegal confiscation of land/property”.
vvv. Claim of ownership/question of “belongingness” of land, property, territory to someone
www. Land of Israel
xxx. Palestine/Palestina
yyy. State of Israel
zzz. Palestinian Authority (PA)

II. CONCEPT and APPROACH to problem
a. Choices of System of Coordinates
b. Different perspectives on the conflict arise from different definitions/systems of view at things and stylistic approaches.
c. Two fundamentally different systems of coordinates or systems to view things
(Fixed point of view on moral and cultural values [closed system], flexible point of view on moral and cultural values [open system])
Religious aspects of two systems (typical religions for systems Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Krishna), level of intensity of two systems (extremism and relax variations of both systems, examples), Tolerance to people who live by different systems
III. STYLES OF APPROACH
a. Idealistic/humanistic approach (way to view things/facts)
b. Cynical approach and materialistic approach
c. Real politik approach
IV. WAY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS
a. Use of system (what system I choose) and approach when I look at the heart of the problem


3. HISTORY OF LAND before British Mandate

a. Pre-Historic times (Paleolithic Age).
b. Ancient Times (Neolithic Age/Arrival of Semites from Ur).
c. Kingdom of Israel.
d. Split of Kingdom of Israel into Northern Kingdom of Israel and Southern Kingdom of Judea.
e. Babylonian captivity and Assyrians.
f. Philistines and Phoenicians.
g. Ancient State of Israel.
h. Greek Occupation.
i. Roman Occupation.
j. Life under Roman Occupation.
k. Great Patriotic War (Jewish War against Occupation).
l. Moment of Independence.
m. Destruction of Judea/Birth of Palestine.
n. Another genocide of Jews. Last Jewish apprising in Palestine.
o. Forceful exile of Jews from the land.
p. Roman/Byzantine rule.
q. Persian invasion and control.
r. Arab invasion and control.
s. Medieval Turkish control.
t. Ottoman Empire control of the land.
u. How the British began to control Palestine.


4. HISTORY OF JEWISH PEOPLE.

a. Ancient Hebrew (Semitic) Tribes.
b. Jews become Jews. c. 1000 BC
c. Jews and their religion.
d. Jews and their homeland.
e. Jews and their culture, tradition, history.
f. Jews in the exile.
g. Anti-Semitism (Definition, Types (Political, Economic, Domestic) and Periods: Ancient, Medieval, Industrial, Modern, neo Anti-Semitism).
h. Bias and how is it different from Anti-Semitism.
i. Bias and anti-Semitism combined together.
j. Jews and return.
k. Who are Jews anyway? Religion, secularism and national identity.
l. Accomplishments of Jews in arts, literature, science, philosophy, religion, music, entertainment, medicine, economics, technology.


5. HISTORY OF ZIONISM

a. What is Zionism?
b. Birth of Zionism.
c. Defining moments of Zionism (historical homeland/modern homeland).
d. Zionism and reality (Dreams become True/Palestine and reality).
e. Jewish presence in Palestine (1825).
f. Comparison 1. The State of European people (1850) and their search for independence. (Specific examples – Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Irish, Italians).
g. Comparison 2. The State of American people (1850) and their search for independence (Specific examples – Americans, Mexicans, Cubans).
h. Jewish pioneers before Zionism. (1850)
i. Jewish pioneers (Allyah) and the spirit of Zionism. (1895).
j. Second and third Allyah. Waves and Patterns of Jewish migration to the land of Israel/Palestine.
k. Professional Zionists.
l. Labor/Socialist Zionism.
m. Revisionism in Zionism.
n. Relationship of Zionism to socialism, communism, bolshevism.
o. Zionism, anti-Zionism and Racism.
p. Anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
q. Jews, Zionism in process and Palestine.


6. HISTORY OF ARABS

a. Pre-historic Arabs (Semites) and formation of Arab identity.
b. Who are Arabs anyway?
c. Variations of Arab identities (Tribes, Bedouin, Druses)
d. Birth of Arab nationalism.
e. Pan-Arabism.
f. Accomplishments of Arabs in arts, literature, science, philosophy, religion, music, entertainment, medicine, economics, technology.


7. HISTORY OF ISLAM

a. Arabs before Islam.
b. Birth of Islam.
c. So what is Islam? Comparison with Judaism, Christianity.
d. Development of Islam.
e. Islamisation of nations.
f. Medieval Islam.
g. Reaction in Islam (stagnation).
h. Modern World and Islam.
i. Wahabism and fundamentalism in Islam.


8. HISTORY OF PALESTINIANS (Palestinian Arabs)

a. So what do we mean by Palestinians?
b. Jews as Palestinians of the land (1885).
c. Arabs in Palestine/land of Israel.
d. Immigration #1 of Arabs in Palestine/land of Israel (1850).
e. Immigration #2 of Arabs in Palestine/land of Israel (1930).
f. Migration of Arabs in Middle East.
g. Reasons for immigration/Arab migration in Middle East.
h. Palestinians become Palestinians (birth of Palestinian nationalism) de-facto.
i. Development of Palestinian nationalism.
j. Palestinians today.
k. Accomplishments of Palestinians (Arabs) in arts, literature, science, philosophy, religion, music, entertainment, medicine, economics, technology.


9. HISTORY OF CONFLICT between British Mandate and Madrid/Oslo Peace Talks

a. Between British Mandate and creation of the State of Israel.
b. Deep analysis of the question of claim on the land. From the perspective of 1900s person and analysis of British and French claim on the land. British and French presence in the land of Israel/Palestine (Medieval times, Imperialist age).
c. Deep analysis of the question of claim on the land. Modern perspective/ idealistc humanistic perspective. (Comparison of what we know from previous chapters about Jews, Arabs, Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs)
d. British partition of Palestine. Palestine looses its character.
e. Creation of Transjordan and the politics of Imperialist States (Great Britain).
f. British/French Secret Agreements and Imperialism.
g. Division and creation of modern Middle East.
h. The consequences (historical, militarily, political) of such divisions.
i. Balfour Declaration. Promise to Jews.
j. Promise to Arabs.
k. Jewish immigration
l. Rise of Arab nationalism in Palestine.
m. Arab Revolt #1 (1920s)
n. Jewish response/Formation of Self-Defense
o. Arab Revolt #2 (1930s) (against British)
p. Arab Revolt #2 (1930s) (pogroms against Jews)
q. Jewish militancy and response to Arab Revolt #2 by self-defense as well as pogroms of Arabs.
r. Jewish relationship with British (1930s) (friends and foes, specific examples).
s. “Eye for an eye” mentality in Palestine and what is true and what is not true about this notion?
t. Holocaust.
u. Jewish response to Holocaust.
v. Jewish resistance during Holocaust.
w. Jewish resistance during WWII in Europe.
x. Jewish Revolt. (1940s) (Against British).
y. Jewish support of the British in 1940s.
z. Arab support of the British in 1940s.
aa. Arab support of Nazi Germany in 1940s.
bb. Middle East in WWII (Big Picture).
cc. Palestinian Arabs and the genocide of Jews in Europe.
dd. Survivors of Holocaust and the destiny of Jews/DP (Displaced Persons)
ee. Sad facts of history/Palestine and crimes against humanity (Jewish and Arab crimes/Jewish and Arab terrorism/Jewish and Arab Guerrilla warfare – specific examples, similarities and differences of each act).
ff. Europe after war. State of Europe at the end of War.
gg. European Crimes against Jews after Holocaust and liberation of Europe from Nazis (facts, specific examples).
hh. Treatment of Jews in Middle East after the war by governments and local authorities.
ii. Treatment of Palestinian Arabs in Middle East after the war by government and local authorities.
jj. Treatment of Jews by British authorities in Middle East after the World War II.
kk. Treatment of Palestinian Arabs by British authorities in Middle East after the World War II.
ll. Big picture of Middle East after World War II.
mm. Palestine after the World War II.
nn. UN and partition of Palestine.
oo. Jewish Reaction to partition
pp. Arab reaction to partition
qq. Palestinian Arab reaction to partition/Palestinian Arabs influence on the conflict
rr. War for Independence (Creation of Jewish State).
ss. Important issues of the conflict during creation of State of Israel.
tt. Changing image of the conflict at the War for Independence.
uu. First years after the War for Independence.
vv. Refugees, Refugees, Refugees (Jewish/Arab).
ww. Relationship between Israel and the World/International community.
xx. State of Conflict between Israel and her enemies before 1956.
I. Stance of Arab governments.
II. Stance of Palestinian Arab population.
III. Stance of Israeli government.
IV. Stance of Israeli population.
V. Arab attacks and Israeli response.
yy. Israeli covert operations and Palestinian militant operations (examples).
zz. Analysis of Israeli Operations in terms of nature and style (terrorism/sabotage/militancy/guerrilla/spy/black op – differences and similarities). Choice of terminology.
aaa. Why is Terminology so important?
bbb. General consequences of Arab/Israeli operations.
ccc. Level of Government participation in such operations.
ddd. Level of local population participation in Arab/Israeli operations.
eee. Question of sponsorship of such operations/State sponsorship of terrorism in Middle East/Europe/USSR/USA and Government view of such operations/government response in Israel and Arab countries.
fff. SINAI CAMPAIGN.
I. Pre-conditions.
II. Last days before the War.
III. Start of the War.
IV. Victories and Defeats.
V. Direct Results.
VI. Indirect results (region/super-powers).
ggg. Situation at the beginning of 1960s.
hhh. SIX-DAY WAR.
I. Pre-conditions.
II. Last days before the War.
III. Start of the War.
IV. War on all fronts.
V. Victories and Defeats.
VI. Direct Results.
VII. Indirect results (region/super-powers).
iii. Issues created by Six-Day War.
jjj. War of Attrition.
kkk. Palestinian/Arab militancy in Israel and abroad.
lll. Jewish militancy in Israel and abroad.
mmm. YOM KIPPUR WAR.
I. Pre-conditions.
II. Last days before the War.
III. Start of War.
IV. War on all fronts.
V. Victories and Defeats.
VI. Direct Results.
VII. Indirect results (region/super-power).
nnn. Greater Israel/Israel expansionism.
ooo. Jews return to their homes and cities in the West Bank.
ppp. Jewish pioneers/settlers in the West Bank.
qqq. Jewish pioneers/settlers in Gaza.
rrr. Jewish pioneers/settlers in Sinai.
sss. Importance of West Bank and Sinai from militarily point of view.
ttt. Important differences of West Bank and Sinai from religious/spiritual perspective point of view.
uuu. Importance of Jewish return to the West Bank from humanistic/secular point of view.
vvv. Question of right of return of Palestinian Arabs in the State of Israel.
www. Question of right of return of Palestinian Arabs in the land of Israel (West Bank).
xxx. Situation in territories/living conditions (improvement and difficulties)/mood on Palestinian streets.
yyy. Evolution of Palestinian Terrorism in 1970s/Soviet hand.
zzz. Israel makes “peace” with some of its neighbors.
aaaa. Consequences of “peace” accords with Egypt,
bbbb. Israel and Syria.
cccc. Syrian occupation of Lebanon.
dddd. Israel and Lebanon.
eeee. Reasons for Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon.
ffff. Operation PEACE FOR GALILEE.
I. Pre-conditions.
II. Last days before the War.
III. Start of the War.
IV. Victories and Defeats.
V. Direct Results.
VI. Indirect results (region/super-powers).
gggg. Palestinian crimes against humanity. Lebanese Christian Arabs are massacred by Palestinians.
hhhh. Lebanese Christian Arabs crimes against humanity. Palestinians are massacred by Lebanese Christian Arabs.
iiii. The role of Hezbollah in Lebanon and Middle East.
jjjj. The role of Israelis in Lebanon’s occupation and massacres that happened in the territory under their military control.
kkkk. The role of PLO in Lebanon’s occupation and massacres that happened in the territory under their military control.
llll. The role of Syria in Lebanon’s occupation and massacres that happened in the territory under their military control.
mmmm. Palestinians in Lebanon. (General overview)
nnnn. Palestinian traditional street crimes/unlawfulness.
oooo. Lebanese government in relationship to Palestinian Arabs in Lebanon.
pppp. Lebanese population in relationship to Palestinian Arabs in Lebanon.
qqqq. “Peace” movement in Israel.
rrrr. Peace movement/anti-war movement/pure demagogues – difference.
ssss. Palestinian “Peace” movement in territories.
tttt. First Palestinian Intifada.
I. Pre-conditions.
II. Last days before the Intifada.
III. Start of Intifada #1 (1980s-90s).
IV. Victories and Defeats.
V. Direct Results.
VI. Indirect results (region/super-power).


10. ISRAEL’S AND PALESTINIAN INTERNATIONAL IMAGE DURING FIRST INTIFADA

a. Israel’s image in 70s.
b. Israel’s image in 80s.
c. Israel’s image because of Palestinian Intifada #1.
d. Palestinian image in 70s.
e. Palestinian image in 80s.
f. Palestinian image because of Palestinian Intifada #1.
g. Comparison and trend. Image and Reality.


11. MORE CLOSE AND DETAILED ANALYSIS OF FIRST INTIFADA.

a. Intifada #1 as a weapon
b. Intifada #1 as a tool and an instrument.
c. Intifada #1 as resistance.
d. Intifada #1 as violence and criminal/terrorist activity.
e. New forces emerge from the First Intifada.
f. Formation of HAMAS as serious threat to Arafat and PLO.
g. HAMAS as a threat to Israel and initial Israeli reaction to HAMAS.
h. Differences in Palestinian militancy (types/styles/goals of terrorisms).


12. MODERN ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT and ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT.

a. Situation in Israel and ‘territories’ de-facto.
b. What kind of peace different sides wanted? Israeli and Palestinian view on peace/International view.
c. Madrid and Oslo accords.
d. Reasons and hopes of people (Israelis/Palestinian) after signing “peace” accords.
e. Reasons and hopes of governments and leaders after signing “peace” accords.
f. Jewish state and right wing extremists.
g. Jewish state and left-wing extremists.
h. Arafat arrives to territories.
i. “Normalization” of relationship with Jordan.
j. Terrorist wave after the signing of accords. (1996s)
k. Israeli response to terrorism wave (1996s).
l. Israel and its Northern border.
m. State of Israeli and Syrian relationship in 1990s.
n. Israel’s withdrawal from South Lebanon.
o. Consequences of Israel withdrawal. (Positive/negative) Lessons learned by all sides.
p. Israeli public opinion of withdrawal from Lebanon.
q. Lebanese public opinion of withdrawal from Lebanon.
r. Palestinian Arabs public opinion of withdrawal from Lebanon.
s. Terrorism at the end of 20th century and breakdown of ‘peace’ talks.


13. BIAS, MEDIA and PROPAGANDA DURING 1990-2000

a. In Middle East.
b. Outside Middle East/International.


14. SECOND PALESTINIAN INTIFADA (Intifada Al-Aqsa)/OSLO WAR.

a. Camp David 2.
b. Stalemate.
c. Situation in Middle East (pre-conditions).
d. Beginning of Second Intifada.
e. Deep Analysis of the causes and reasons for the start of Second Palestinian Intifada “Al-Aqsa”/Serious analysis of the beginning of hostilities of Oslo War.
f. First month of Second Intifada.
g. Hard years of Second Intifada.
h. Operation Defensive Shield.
i. Reasons for Operation Defensive Shield.
j. Results of Operation Defensive Shield.
k. International/World response to the Operation Defensive Shield.
l. Analysis of International/World opinion of the Operation Defensive Shield.
m. IDF in territories in general.
n. IDF in territories in particular (positive examples).
o. IDF in territories in particular (negative examples).
p. Evaluation of actions of IDF. Conclusions.
q. Palestinian Authority forces in territories in general.
r. Palestinian Authority forces in territories in particular (examples).
s. Palestinian terrorists/militants in territories in general.
t. Palestinian terrorists/militants in territories in particular (examples).
u. Local population response to Second Intifada. (Jewish Israeli, Arab Israeli and Palestinian Arabs actions – specific examples).
v. Outside influence on conflicts (Egypt, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States, North Korea, China, India, EU, USA, Russia, UN)
o. Lives under Intifada.
I. Lives of Jews in territories.
II. Lives of Palestinians in territories.
III. Lives of Israeli citizens in general.
IV. Lives of Israeli Jews.
V. Lives of Israeli Arabs.
VI. Lives of Christian minority.
w. Intifada and Media War.
x. Bias, Bias and brainwashing propaganda of Oslo War.


15. CLOSE AND DETAILED ANALYSIS OF SECOND INTIFADA.

a. Its consequences.
b. Intifada #2 – Lessons for Israelis.
c. Intifada #2 – Lessons for Palestinians.
d. Conclusions derived from second Intifada.


16. Current State of Affairs.

a. What happens now?
b. Why does it happen? (Causes and leads [Local/International] to current situation)
c. Current Issues. New Issues.
d. Old Wounds. (Old unresolved Issues)


17. World and International community in relationship to MODERN conflict.

a. World Views as a whole.
b. European stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, countries, classes.
III. Dominating View.
c. American stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
d. Russian stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
e. Arab nations stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
f. Muslim stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
g. India stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
h. African stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
i. Asian stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
j. Latin America stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.
k. Australia/Canada stance on the conflict.
I. Different views
II. Views by groups, classes.
III. Dominating View.


18. LOOK AT THE FUTURE

a. The look at the future of Israelis as a nation.
b. The look at the future of Israeli Jews.
c. The look at the future of Israeli Arabs.
d. The look at the future of Israeli Minorities (Christians).
e. The look at the future of Palestinian Arabs as a whole.
f. The look at the future of Palestinian Arab refugees in Diaspora.
g. The look at the future of Israeli Jewish refugees from Arab countries and Jews Diaspora.
h. The look at the future of Jews in territories (West Bank/Gaza).
i. The look at the future of Muslim Arabs (Palestinians) in territories (West Bank/Gaza).
j. The look at the future of Christian Arabs (Palestinians) in territories (West Bank/Gaza).
k. The look at the future of Jews and Jewish Diaspora.


19. (This might be interesting) So WHO IS RIGHT in the conflict? (Personal thoughts on the conflict/Personal life experience).

a. In my Humble Opinion (IMHO)/Who am I to judge? The look of bystander.
b. Why one side is more right than the other?…. or Well, why NOT one side could be more right than the other? J Why NOT? Question of possibility of one side be more right than the other (Historical examples).
c. Some Logic for Dummies. Careful assumptions. Questions of noise. Eliminating unnecessary data/use of data. Physics is the science of simplifying stuff in order to predict ones behavior/noise reduction.
d. Lets define what is a ‘good’ side and what is a ‘bad’ (‘less good’) side in ANY conflict. Why there are two sides and how are they different? Can both sides be ‘good’ or ‘bad’ at the same time? How do we grade the ‘goodness’ or ‘badness’ of the side?
e. How IMHO I view the conflict? Why do I think one side is more right than the other?
f. “Enemy of my friend is my enemy”.
g. Who supports whom? Difference between democratic society and totalitarian regimes. While in democratic society there is a whole spectrum of ideas and variety of opinions (so much that it is actually hard to recognize the ‘good’ side, people listen to different sources and get confused), in totalitarian society there is only one official view of solidarity and support. Guess which side is supported by totalitarian regimes. Israeli or Palestinian side? Think why it can be easier for a person under brutal dictatorship and totalitarian regime to recognize the side of goodness. “Friend of my enemy is my enemy as well…”
h. Moral character of people on both sides of the conflict/different sides of solidarity/blame game.
i. Careful! Simplification leads to mistakes. But simple logic is: “I don’t know X (side), but I know Y (side). If Y against X AND Y=good, then X=evil” (assuming of course that ‘good’ side and ‘evil’ side are always in geometrical opposition to each other) It’s primitive, but it’ll help you through the day of confusion.
j. What I know about “Y” side - Israel. Personal experience. Why I consider Israel “good” side?
k. Why I consider X (opposite) side evil?
l. Mathematical formulas and why they do NOT work in real life conflicts. Also question of inner instinct.
m. Question of oversimplification. Is my proof too simple?
n. Responsibility of making personal choice between the sides lies with the reader. Knowledge of fundamentals of the conflict is important to make a decision. Lets talk about why someone must make a decision and choose a side? Why can’t a person be neutral and abstain from getting involve in the conflict? Question of neutrality.
o. What is wrong with neutrality? Why is it dangerous?
p. Can the person be unbiased, balanced and objective in own views and still support only one of the sides?
q. Most frequently asked question: WHO IS RIGHT?
r. Not simple question leads to not simple answer. Question should have been rephrased.
s. More accurately: Who is MORE RIGHT than WRONG? Or who is LESS WRONG than other?
t. Why is it important to support side of ‘MORE RIGHT/LESS WRONG”? Why can’t people support both sides? Multilateral answer. On surface, the question of balance and fairness? Why is it wrong to place an equal sign in this messy equation of Middle East? Back to the question of morality, human values and the spirit of civilization. Deep question of human moral values and beliefs. “Not with bare hands!” (Answer to Hitler, Goebbls, Mussolini, Lenin, Stalin, Saddam, Arafat, bin Laden) Leitmotiv and tools of abusers of humanity. The question of tools they using and to what strings of soul they appeal. Appeal to the basic animal instincts, usage of old anti-Semitic rhetoric (examples). Opposite to appeal to the high moral values and humanity. Why is this appeal so unpopular in modern world? Why is appeal to humanity heard less often than appeal to pogrom and destruction (examples, genocides in Rwanda, Cambodia, Sudan and call to the physical destruction and removal of thousand of homes on innocent civilians like Jews many of whom are elderly survivors of the Holocaust)? Question of cynism and moral system of core human values in the world. The state of moral values? The presence or absence of change? Change and stability in multidimensional world of human values. Different planes show different state of human moral – from stable to dramatic change.
u. Why you, personally, should support the State of Israel and her People?


20. ISLAMO-FASCISM as the plague/disease/virus/cancer of 21st century.

a. So what is Islamo-fascism?
b. Why Islamo? Why fascism? Evil’s stake on religion, Previous evil’s stake was on race/ethnicity/nationality.
c. Origins and roots. (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, racist Iran, Nationalism and Religious Extremism of Middle East)
d. Early years and encouragement of spread and growth by the World International community.
e. The ‘disease’ moves from incubation period to the open (extreme) form/1980s.
f. Attacks on Jews as ‘lacmuse‘/orange paper for test of chemical presence of extremism in society. (Jews as vulnerable and at the same time powerful minority).
g. The case for minority. Why Jews? Why now? Why always?
h. Israel as a Jew among the nations. Can attack on Israel be viewed as an attack on the fundamental principles of our civilization? In order to understand Islamo-fascists look for the goals. What is the goal of Islamo-fascism?
i. Today’s jihadists as Medieval Crusaders? West and East – flip-flopping of civilizations. Interesting similarities. Question of what is more closely resembles what? (Medieval Islam, modern Western Civilization, Medieval Europe, Modern Middle East) Question of why oh why do we always try to make a comparison with something ‘totally’ different? Answer to cynics who enjoy this type of questions. As in crime, history tends to repeat itself. Something like that or of similar nature was already probably happened before. It is easier to recognize a new disease by the old traits even if disease went through evolution. People are always the same and human psychology as well as human nature rarely changes. Question of human evolution. Question of time of brutal mega-murders and closeness of that brutal period to today’s world. Yesterday’s brutality is 0 meters from us, today.
j. Why did we win World War II? Why we might loose World War III? Question of allies. The need for leaders of World War II and their absence. Remarkable similarities of French position in both conflicts. Why “War against Islamo-fascism” not “War against Terror”? Question of what is terrorism- terrorism as a tool of Islamo-fascism. Terrorism as a loyal servant of evil Islamo-fascist ideology. Terrorism as a tactic, makes ‘War on Terror’ useless because the war against tactic cannot be won until there would be clear definition of who is the enemy. Terror is mere tactic. The war against terror (tactics) cannot be won before the war against Islamo-Fascism (Strategy and Ideology). Different fronts on the war on terror in reality are different fronts in the War against Islamo-fascism. (Examples, Chechnya, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kashmir, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Algeria, Tunis, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Israel… they are all fronts of that war).
k. Can we even possibly loose the War against Islamo-fascism? Yes. So what would happen after defeat?
l. Another question – can we ultimately defeat the evil of this world? Can we ultimately win the War? Is there such thing as total victory? Reappearance and comeback/rebirth of dark phoenix of evil and why this war is “so” eternal? War for thousand years? Dark Ages and genocides as the victories of ‘Evil’ side and V-Day (1945) and the crush and fall of Nazism and Communism as the victories for ‘good’ side. Point of view, an opinion if you will – constant struggle between good and evil in the world.
m. Many faces of Evilness and the tools it’s using. Mimicry and the camouflage of the Evil since the end of World War II. Evolution of the Evil. Its use of new tactics in order to survive in modern world. Old tricks and new style. Question of society anti-bodies against the virus of Evil. Use of terminology and again the importance of understanding why this ‘War of Words’ is so important and why does the ‘Evil’ side so often twist it?
n. So what is Evil? Is it a group? NO. Is it a race? NO. Is it a religion or religious group? NO. Is it a nationality? NO. It is invisible, deadly and uncatchable as lead fumes. Is it possible to detect? Yes, if we look very carefully. Traits of Evil: intolerance, xenophobia, extremism, fundamentalism. Important difference between fundamentalism and believe in fundamental human and moral values. The importance of tolerance and allocation of space for mistakes and imperfection make the belief in fundamental moral values NOT harmful, comparing to zealous rage of intolerance of fundamentalists. Fundamentalism and fundamental values – what’s the difference? Difference between fundamentalism and fundamental human values. (Clarify position) Draw a border between conservative tradition and right-wing intolerance and extremism.
o. Why to have all this talk about ultimate ‘Evil’ and the question of its existence. Back to the question of the system of moral coordinates. Look at system of human values and its spectrum. Extremes (opposite ends) of the spectrum. Question of ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Goodness and ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Evilness. Where people and humanity lies? Somewhere in between? The question of grayscale as opposite to the black/white scale. Imperfection of this world and its inhabitants. The ability of grayscale to allow different variations or mixtures of good and evil in real world. Absence of perfection and the presence of imperfection on the scale. Why do I think American and Israeli civilizations are the same and why do I think that they are better than Palestinian/Arab ones. Question of moral high ground and the importance of understanding the difference between moral high ground ‘superiority’. Dangerous term of ‘superiority’. Understanding the term and what it is implies as a generalization about the society as group of people united by common national/cultural/traditional/political/religious identity. Question of “moral” superiority: in character of an individual, in group of people, in society and country as a whole. Stressing out the importance of existing imperfection as in Israel/America system as in Palestinian/Arab society. Importance of recognizing that both sides have tremendous and terrible imperfections and many wrongs and wrongdoings, but one side is ultimately MORE wrong than the other. NOT on biological level, NOT on physical or genetic level, but on the behavioral level acquired by living, been nurtured, grown up and formed in the society of criminals and society of sane (“normal”) individuals. Example, suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against innocent civilians (non-combatants). Example, opinion on the terrorist activity in the time of crisis for Jewish and Palestinian society. How did Jews viewed terrorism in the times of personal despair? How does Palestinian society view it now? Comparison of false excuses and justification about the lifestyle to the lifestyle of people who live in other Arab countries (worse conditions than Palestinians), in African and Latin American countries as well as in Europe. Also compare the desperation of Palestinian Arab population to the desperation of the Jews in the ghettos of WWII and their responses to those living conditions. How many Jews attacked innocent German children with knives yelling ‘G-d is Great!’ during the time of personal crisis for the Jewish nation and the years of active extermination of Jews by German, Hungarian and Polish murderers. Recognizing the falsehood of justification for the terrorist/bandit/criminal society that uses poverty and bad livelihood as an excuse for its crimes. Recognizing that the real reason behind terrorism is active and vicious spiral of xenophobia in Palestinian society – its worst form of hatred rather than fear toward the people of other religion and nationality – Jews.
p. Fundamental question of the choice of the system of morals by which person/groups of people live demand different views of the same events/conflict. Depending on the system through which we wish to look at the conflict, we might see different picture.
q. Recognizing that this is a war of Ideologies as well as the war of civilizations, where Jews and Palestinian Arabs are unfortunately on the different end of opposite spears (larger than they are themselves). The Land of Israel or Palestine is just a place where those civilizations collide. Because the ideologies so different from each other they cannot possible co-exist in the same area of influence.
r. Examples of previous stand off between different ideologies/moral systems: communism vs. capitalism (Cold War), totalitarian vs. democracy, Nazism vs. Humanism (World War II).
s. Collide of civilization and the question of previous history of co-existence. Periods of polarization/conflict and confrontation.
t. Recognizing the difference of American-Israeli and Islamo-fascists ideologies. The difference is in its values.
u. Question of destiny for our today’s modern Western civilization. Does civilization goes in spiral cycles upward toward enlightment or does it moves in the wave form with its own ups and downs. Question of Dark Ages. Possibility of new Dark Ages after this period of englightment. Duality of History’s nature. As in quantum mechanics, light can have both wave and impulse (particles) form, so perhaps History might have. Sinusoidal waves and spiral twists upward.


21. ROLE OF WORLD SUPER-POWERS AND THE FUTURE OF OUR PLANET.

a. Importance of super-powers in Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
b. Importance of super-powers in the War against Islamo-fascism.
c. Responsibilities that super-powers have for today’s World and Peace.
d. Kipling’s “Burden of White Man” or the delicate question of responsibilities that our Western Civilization has for future of our planet.
e. Kipling’s “Burden of a White Man” as actually a “Burden of Civilized Person”. Question of RACISM. The problem not in color of skin, but in the mind of a person and his/her character. Recognition of Kipling’s mistake and forming of correct postulate.



22. BEFORE FINDING A SOLUTION.

a. Before finding Solution lets find (define) the Problem.
b. Now, since we found the Problem. Lets make step-by-step points to solve the problem. What parts can be solvable and what won’t be accepted.
c. Red lines of the conflict: Refugees (Jewish/Palestinian Arabs), independent and sovereign states (Israel/Palestine), status of Holy city (Jerusalem’s future), the national identity of Israel (its ethnic face and its Jewish roots), demilitarization of Palestinian Arabs, security for Israel, peace and recognition by its neighbors as well as the rest of Arab and Muslim world.
d. Conclusions. It’s possible to solve the conflict only by defining important moments (outcome of all of this) prior to the negotiations of the way to implement it. We have to define our end goals.
e. Terrorism goes first. There is NO progress with terrorism on Israeli and Palestinian streets.
f. Violence and incitement must be stopped, through the controlled violence (war/military operations of IDF/Arab authorities making actions and real steps forward).
g. Defining the fundamental difference between terrorism and the violence of armed forces. In other words, there is NO tit-for-tat or cycle or spiral of violence. Defining “War against Islamo-fascism” and solving a solution with 2 PARTNERS. (Differences)
h. There is problem with terrorism and violent response of democratic state against it.
i. Recognizing the asymmetry of the conflict from all possible viewpoints… that both sides are NOT equal and never were equal between each other, there was always some asymmetry in the conflict: political, economical, legal, world sympathies, neighbors’ relations etc.


23. LAST IN-DEPTH LOOK AT TERRORISM AND ABUSES.

a. Terrorism. What is terrorism? Last thoughts on definitions.
b. Causes of Terrorism – fake explanations and the real ones.
c. Terrorism as means (tactics) of delivering and accomplishing goals (strategy) – Xenophobia, Racism, Intolerance, Hatred.
d. Acts of terrorism and why they can be called as such.
e. Acts of terrorism in the process – the mechanic of ticking bombs.
f. The result of terrorism on the ground (immediate direct results).
g. Long-term results of terrorism as the strategic goals of terrorism and terrorists.
h. Why someone’s freedom fighter is NOT someone else terrorists. Also, why terrorists is NOT someone’s freedom fighter.
i. Terror act as carefully prepared and calculated attacks – NOT a spontaneous acts of desperation.
j. Why terrorism as racism or genocide never should be excused?
k. Why we should not negotiate with terrorism?
l. How can we fight terrorism?
m. ABUSES. Army abuses and abuses by militants as well as civilian participation.
n. The response to the accusation and the means to answer those accusations.
o. Geneva Convention. Introduction (A Little bit of History).
p. Why is Geneva Convention is no longer useful to the humanity in the form it is written?
q. What the world should do with Geneva Convention? (Name specific options)
r. Why is disbanding Geneva Convention is wrong and harmful for our civilization?
s. If cancellation of Geneva Convention is NOT an option that what is it?
t. The modernization of Geneva Convention and restructure of its nature.
u. The importance of changes and their impact on the legal level.
v. Would Amendments weaken the Convention or would they actually strengthen it?
w. Case for the change of Geneva Convention and addition/re-writing some of the articles to accommodate asymmetrical warfare with terror/non-conventional forces.
x. What should be the response of the army in case of abuses?
y. What should be the response of the public in case of abuses?
z. Why do abuses make a threat to our society as we know it? (Question of moral equivalency with terrorism, why it does not apply and question of moral high ground. [Closed system of perception of human nature and human values]).
aa. Last thoughts about terrorism and army crimes and abuses.


24. HOW COULD WE SOLVE THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT (In the presence of partner for peace as well as in the absence of such)?

a. No easy answer. Honestly, don’t know and, please, don’t trust anyone who says he/she knows the ‘real deal’ solution.
b. Lets define possibilities and necessary ingredients as well as pre-conditions.
c. Peace requires both sides (forcefully or not) to recognize each other.
d. Peace requires a long time and serious effort.
e. Peace requires partners and partnership.
f. Peace requires compromise and tolerance.
g. Make emphasize on painful compromises as a stimulus and the only way to move forward.
h. Peace requires love and respect for fellow human beings from BOTH sides.
i. Peace requires different mentality than currently exist in the Middle East.
j. When we talk about PEACE we talk about change in Middle East mentality – the mentality of a whole region.
k. So what could world do about the conflict?
l. Lets give a place for a fantasy and try to analyze rare and unrealistic scenarios of actual true peace in the Middle East.
m. Idealistic view. What would be the idealistic view of solving the problem? (If the OTHER side did not exist… what if)
n. Cynical and materialistic view.
o. Real politik view/Reality.
p. It is unrealistically to find the solution in near future because of apparent indifference of the world to the suffering of others and unwillingness of the world to sacrifice personal comfort and happiness for the sake of other fellow human beings.
q. The last five decades proved that World as a whole (Arab nations particularly) has a lot of words, but does NOT really care about Land of Israel/Palestine and its inhabitants.
r. The money, time and effort that the World spends every year in order to destroy the State of Israel could turn the West Bank and Gaza into exotic paradise as well as transform and improve the whole region. But lets not mention what would happen with weapons sales, narco-bussiness and warlords status if peace would prevail.
s. There is again question of real willingness for peace. Does it exist on both sides?
t. How long do we have to wait for the generation of genuine peacemakers?
u. My own two different roadmaps – two different solutions (based on 2003-4 situation).
I. PLAN A: Semi-Realistic (in terms of actual implementation by super-powers), quick, just and not so effort consuming (5-10 years), but NOT fundamentally right and only partly successful.

Three State Solution: Israel (Jews), Jordan (Palestinian Arabs), Palestina-Judea Federation (Mixed areas of Jewish and Arab inhabitance under the strict control of American/Israeli and UN/French troops). Different Laws and Customs for different Areas of Living. Jewish Laws for the Jewish areas and Palestinian Arab Laws for Palestinian Areas.

II. PLAN B: Very unrealistic (in terms of actual implementation by super-powers), long (20-30 years) and very scary (ARMAGEDON) and heavy burden on the world, but really Just and Morally right solution.

Total World War on Islamo-fascism with subsequent de-Palestinization of Palestinian Arabs (as in de-Nazification of Germans), de-fundamentalization and de-militancy of Saudi Arabia and Arab Peninsula (as in the end of militancy and imperialism of Empire of Japan), complete surrender and capitulation of Muslim (Islamo-fascist) countries in such a war, surrender/liberation of Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Gulf States from Islamo-fascism, liberation of Europe (France in particular) from Islamo-fascist occupation and hegemony, liberation of Asian states by China (Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines would become liberated).

Why China and the deal with the devil. Question of Allies and back to the role of world powers and their leaders.

Complete change and reform in Muslim society, Arab laws, and customs. Tolerance toward women and people of other race/religion. Tolerance to fashion and music of other cultures. Tolerance to people of other opinions. The restoration of right of Jews and Christian to practice their religion in Arab countries and areas currently occupied by Islamo-fascist regimes.
Total war in Media and Information. Complete prohibition of Islamo-fascist literature as well as Islamo-fascist propaganda and symbols. De-islamo-nazification of countries and return to the True NON-Perversicve Islam – the religion of tolerance and peace.

Super Powers (Great Britain, USA, Russia, China, India) devide the world between themselves on the rights of winners. France finally free from Muslim (Islamo-fascist) occupation and can control its own destiny regardless of Muslim dictate. France joining the victorious Allies in defeat of Islamo-fascism. The importance of Europe’s liberation and their cooperation with Britain, Russia and American forces.

Jews who were hidden by their friends-neighbors in Riyadh finally see the light of Day. The diary of the Jewish girl who lived in Damascus under Islamo-fascist occupation gets published. Also there is an establishment of the Museum of Tolerance (Ramallah, West Bank) and gallery of Jewish refugees of Arab-Israeli wars and victims of genocidal terror that Palestinians carried out against civilian population of Israel. Thus the new young generation of Palestinian Arabs would learn first hands about the crimes of their grandparents.

This war would take millions of innocent lives, but it would be worse fight for. The world would fight for the just cause. Finally, there would be a victory of Allies (Great Britain, Russia, Americans, Jews, Chinese and India) in World War III against Muslim tyranny and totalitarian regimes of intolerance. The Rise of British, American, Russian and Israeli flags over ruined Grand Mosque pf Mecca (Reichstag) at the heart of Islamo-fascist hordes.

In short - ARMAGEDON with HAPPY ending.

Of course, this is very scary, frightening, terrible and unrealistic portrayal of the situation that would happen as a result of World War III.
Lets hope that the world would not need another great war of liberation.

Both plans would NEVER be adapted by World Community and would require personal leadership and great courage as well as vision for American and British Allies. There is a serious skepticism about implementation of this plan - see the reasons in above chapters.


25. CONCLUSION

a. Final words about the conflict itself.
b. Why the forces of Goodness would prevail sooner or later and the question of human nature.
c. Personal appeal to support the State of Israel and her People.




I hope that we can base our discussion of the conflict on the outline that I provided, thus leaving NO space for bias and propaganda.
Naturally, I hope to have a dialoge with my fellow forum readers, not a flame war.





2. DEFINITIONS of TERMS and CONCEPT APPROACH.

I. NECESSARY DEFINITIONS (What is _? For our
discussion lets define terminology). Write about the
IMPORTANCE OF DEFINITION and RIGHT TERMINOLOGY for our
study.
a. Happiness.

Happiness is very philosophical and personal issue.
For our discussion, I decided to give primitive
definition of what can be considered happiness if
there would be a need to use such word in our
discussion.

Definition (for our discussion):
Happiness – a state of human being, when such being
feels security, comfort and satisfaction in his/her
own life.
Happiness (alternative definition) – absence of
tragedy/absence of unhappiness.

b. Peace.
Definition (for our discussion):
Peace – state of human society when society and
people in it as a whole can live in happiness without
a fear of war.

For our discussion, I assume that the ultimate
goal of resolving the conflict is to achieve peace and
happiness for people who live in the region.

c. Absence of Peace.
Definition (for our discussion):
Absence of Peace does not necessary mean war; it
is just actual absence of such condition (as peace) in
the fabric of society. Traditionally, for our
discussion, we would consider “absence of peace” as
presence of violence/insecurity in people’s lives.

d. War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Extreme case of “Absence of Peace” or special
state of relationship between groups of nations or
groups of people, when sides resolve conflict through
the extreme violent confrontation without presence of
police force between sides that could control the
level of violence.

Generally, when we talk about wars we talk about
HIC (High Intensity Conflicts) and extreme violence.
War is the state of society that rules by laws that
are different from the one present in peacetime.
War can be called armed conflict between
countries or groups that involves killings and
destruction.

e. Spiral (cycle) of violence/tit-for-tat - why it
does not apply for this conflict.
Definition (for our discussion):
Spiral (cycle of violence)/tit-for-tat -
repeated circle of violence in which attacks do not
serve any other purpose than mere revenge for the
previous action of a cycle. Thus, making those acts
useless for both sides of the conflict.

Note: Spiral of violence is fundamentally
different from the acts of controlled violence
performed by armed forces or police in order to
prevent the future possible attacks as well as to stop
them all together.

Controlled violence performed by armies during
the times of war as well as actions of police force
and acts of self-defense do NOT necessary stop all the
perpetrators of attack immediately, but it still does
not allow anyone to put an equal sign between the
actions of firefighters (army) and gang-formations
(fire).

The actions of those two groups are completely
different in nature as well as in style and methods.
There is fundamental difference between their goals.

f. Terrorism/Acts of Terror.
Definition (for our discussion):
Terrorism is a deliberate (intentional) act of
violence where civilian non-combatants are the main
targets of attack.

Note: Terrorism is a peacetime equivalent of “war
crime”.
War crime can be a deliberate (intentional) act of
violence where civilian non-combatants are the main
targets of attack during the times of war.

Specific examples of terrorism:
A bomb that is placed in civilian market with intent
to harm/murder innocent bystanders (civilians) who
belong to some particular religious/ethnic group or
been chosen by terrorist(s) indiscriminately from
random visitors of this market is terrorism.

The same bomb placed five blocks from this market at
the entrance to the military base and whose explosion
resulted in the murder of innocent passer-by would be
an act of guerrilla warfare with poorly plan of attack
that produced mass collateral damage.

Nuances/Important differences of “terrorism” from
other terms:
Example #1: A bomb that is placed on the road with
intent to harm/murder soldiers of enemy force cannot
be counted as terrorist attack because it is a
guerilla type of attack even if civilian
non-combatants died as a result of pre-mature
explosion.
The perpetrators of an attack did not target civilian
non-combatants on purpose thus their deaths resulted
as unintentional collateral damage.

Example #2: Nuclear strike/precision strike on a
military installation that resulted in the death of
civilian non-combatants that were in direct proximity
of the strike is not an act of terrorism, since it is
carried out as an act of war and does not
intentionally target civilian non-combatants of that
particular area/it was not intended for the murder of
civilians.

That is why it is important to keep the military
installations like barracks, bases, power plants,
artillery pieces and cars from civilian locations.
Both sides must avoid placing their forces in civilian
neighborhoods, as they must understand that such
positions are potential targets of attack from
opposing force. Therefore, the forces that place their
military installations like cars and headquarters in
areas that are densely populated by civilians carry
the responsibilities that arise from their death by
opposing force as collateral damage of war.

Example #3: Any civilian death that resulted from
unintentional/accidental targeting of civilians can be
declared as unfortunate collateral damage.

Example #4: The attack on such military installation
as building of Pentagon can be considered an act of
war or guerrilla type of attack, but the attack on
such civilian installation such as World Trade Center
(NY) can be considered a terrorist attack during
peacetime or “war crime” during times of war.

Example #5: The destruction of Kabul’s home for
elderly and disabled citizens of Afghanistan can be
considered an unfortunate collateral damage since it
was targeted mistakenly (not on purpose/cruise missile
malfunction) and by accident in the fog of war.

Example #6: Bombing of U.S. Marines barrack in Beirut
can be considered act of guerrilla warfare during the
times of war or unprovoked surprise attack that starts
the war between the sides that participated in the
attack because the intended target was a military
personal of opposing force that was on active duty
deployed for combat in the foreign nation.
However, targeting of the same U.S. Marines by armed
opponents in the sanctity of their civilian homes in
America would an act of terrorism since they are
off-duty and not in active army and therefore they
become civilian non-combatants.

Even more to say, targeting of Palestinian militants
in the sanctity of their homes can be considered
lawful acts of war and NOT acts of terrorism since
Palestinian militants converted their home civilian
facilities into actual active military headquarters of
terrorists organizations, thus making them a military
installation (barracks/bases) in the densely populated
areas of residence. Therefore, home/military
installations can be targeted as any other military
installation including car, boat or any other type of
a vehicle that militants/terrorists use as a military
equipment or weapon.

Moreover, terrorists refusal to recognize Geneva
Convention and their repeated offences against Codes
and Laws of War make them official ‘”unlawful/illegal
combatants”. This status assigned to them even by
military during thr battle and in official military
correspondents. Thus, we can argue that Geneva
Convention designed for armed soldiers of conventional
army does not apply to those paramilitary formations
that do not recognize its authority and actively
participate in as many “war crimes” and “terrorism” as
possible.

Technically, since Geneva Convention does not say
anything about unlawful combatants and deals only with
lawful combatants (soldiers wearing uniform) and
civilian non-combatants, we can assume that we do not
have to apply it in the treatment of those individual
who refuse its protection in the first place and who
do not recognizing its authority. For more
information, see Chapter about TERRORISM and ARMY
ABUSES.

Last Important Note about terrorism:
ONCE A TERRORIST – ALWAYS A TERRORIST.
Someone’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist – NOT a
freedom fighter.
This means that even if person participates in other
types of warfare, they can be and must be labeled
terrorists if they actively participate in creation,
ordering or carrying out terror attacks.

For example, if person loves his family and community
during day, but murders and tortures children by
night, such person can be considered an “evil” being
even though he/she can accomplish lots of good things
in life.
If person acts as a true gentleman with his lady, but
rapes other women, such person cannot be labeled as
decent and can justly be labeled as a pig (no offense
to innocent animals).
In the same manner, if person commits acts of
non-violent resistance during some part of a day and
then another part of a day actively participates in
creation or carrying out terror attacks, such person
cannot be called “freedom fighter”, “struggler”,
“militant” etc. He/she is a terrorist.

ONCE A TERRORIST, ALWAYS [stay] A TERRORIST.
No excuses. No double standard.

g. [b]Guerrilla attacks/Acts of War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Guerrilla attacks – type of warfare where one
side (usually paramilitary) uses non-conventional
(asymmetrical) style of warfare against opposing force
(usually a conventional army) in order to win the
battle and/or achieve its goals.

Examples of guerrilla attacks:
Example: Armed resistance of paramilitary force
from local population (militants/partisans) that uses
attacks against a conventional army of enemy in order
to liberate particular territory from enemy control
(end of occupation).
Note: Those guerrillas who actively participate
in terror attacks and use terrorism as tactical as
well as strategic tool for their goal cannot be called
“liberators”, because in order to be labeled partisan,
person must abstain from the actions described under
the definition of “terrorism”. * - Look terrorism.

Guerrilla - irregular militant, usually
politically motivated: a member of an irregular
paramilitary unit, usually with some political
objective such as the overthrow of a government.
Guerrillas usually operate in small groups to harass
and carry out sabotage. (guerrilla warfare).

h. Collateral damage.
Definition (for our discussion):
Collateral damage - unintended damage to
civilian life or property during a military operation.

i. Codes of War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Codes of War – some written and non-written, but
traditionally recognized laws that govern the process
of war and the way it should be carried out.
For example, such thing as declaration of war,
traditional agreement not to harm civilian
non-combatants that might be in the location of active
conflict or at least minimize damage wherever
situation permits to do so without putting lives of
soldiers in unnecessary danger. Effort of both sides
to minimize the collateral damage that cannot be
avoided during armed conflict can be called one of the
traditions of conventional warfare.

Example: When during Battle for Berlin, Russian
soldier risked his live in order to get the little
German girl from the line of fire, he committed a
courageous act of heroism, but in theory noone require
this action from him because of serious risk that
involved his personal safety of going at the line of
fire and taking her from the ruins of Berlin strasse.
Because of his courage and good heart and in
recognition of carrying out even more duties than the
one described under the Codes of War (that technically
would permit him to witness the death of the girl by
some ricochet), German people placed a memorial
monument in his owner in Berlin.

j. Bias.
Definition (for our discussion):
Bias – unjustified and unsupported assumption
about something that appears in persons thinking
process as well as in his/her views and writings that
develop independently without actual knowledge about
matter or subject.
Bias – an unfair preference or dislike of
something.

Examples:
Bias toward particular group when we talk about
rightful ownership of West Bank of Jordan River. An
assumption that this particular territory belongs to
one group more than it does to the other is biased
assumption. Bias can be an unfair preference or
dislike of particular ethnic group based on the
refusal to accept a connection of any particular group
to the land of its ancestry or historical homeland.

k. Independence.
l. Anti-Semitism.
m. Occupation.
n. Liberation.
o. Disputed territory.

..........

to be continued...

One?
05-18-2004, 12:21 AM
zionists are taking over the world ain't that right IDFM203 :P :lol: (i dont think anyone else gets the joke but him so dont bother flaming).

to tell you the truth I'm sick and tired of this issue. But I will give you an advice. Search this forum and you will find everything you are looking for.

Ichhabe
05-18-2004, 12:43 AM
Raven W: How many years did it take you just to write down those questions?

Not that I'm the one with the power to do so, but: If you have the answer to half of those questions and solutions for just 1/3 of them: Then you truly is the just King to rule Israel, and be the Emperor of Palestine. ;)

And almost forgot: Congratulations on the most thorough 1.post ever on this forum. I can't and wont dare to think on how long IDFM 203's reply is going to be on this. (But I'm afraid he have to replace his key board at least two times. rofl )

RavenW
05-18-2004, 02:13 AM
Thanks guys for your responces. I really wanted to write a serious paper about this conflict (maybe even a book), because I am sick and tired of useless topics, where people start to flame instead of looking at the definitions of the simplest terms like "happiness", "terrorism" and "anti-Semitism" at first.


Raven W: How many years did it take you just to write down those questions?

Hah... :) It took me about a week to write down the actual outline and then re-edit and correct it couple of times. I also inserted a chapter about ARMY ABUSES because I thought it is necessary to talk about importance of changing/re-writing Geneva Convention since we live in era of asymetrical warfare as well as properly responding to the abuses of individual soldiers and responsibility of our society to deal with them from position of high moral standards.

The problem with my outline is that it is only an OUTLINE :) a mere plan of the future work (I'm studing History as you might assume), but actual chapters require some serious writing. Oh boy... :roll:


If you have the answer to half of those questions and solutions for just 1/3 of them: Then you truly is the just King to rule Israel, and be the Emperor of Palestine.

Well... It's tempting to say 'I know', BUT - As I said in the outline, I don't have DIRECT answers for the conflict, but I think I have a good understanding of the problem and fair balanced general assumptions about how we can solve it. I, specifically, tried not to write a solution to the problem (even though I included some in last chapters), but wanted to DEFINE THE PROBLEM ITSELF and suggest the possible ways to solve it.

For me it was more important to structurise the approach to the problem.


And almost forgot: Congratulations on the most thorough 1.post ever on this forum. I can't and wont dare to think on how long IDFM 203's reply is going to be on this. (But I'm afraid he have to replace his key board at least two times. )

Thanks, man. I would love to hear some thoughts from IDFM203. I strongly believe in the importance of hearing different view points in order to understand the problem on deeper level.

BASICALLY, it is a question of genuine scientific interest in finding the truth and understanding the reality of the conflict rather than make some politicised activism. That's why I did not participated on the forum, even though I read it every day for many many month now. I prefer inner thoughts and reflection rather than pointless arguments in flame war.

I was thinking to start writing the chapters from the topic that might be an interest to people on this forum first. Do you have some particular question about specific period or maybe event. I can clerify or allaborate on some definitions etc.

Thanks, again. :)

SeanAshi
05-18-2004, 05:41 AM
thus leaving NO space for bias and propaganda.
Impossible

Argyll
05-18-2004, 06:05 AM
Stands by waiting for the ****storm that will follow :roll:

Javehn
05-18-2004, 06:37 AM
I would say you did a good work , dude . I broke down in the middle of reading your essay , but good work i think . Next time , can you sum it in less then 130 pages ? :lol: Thought this problem can't be explained in no less then 10,000 pages book .

IDFM203
05-18-2004, 09:04 AM
RavenW

I am just curious, would you also like a vs by vs explanation of the entire bible, or actually what about a whole rendition of the roman empire and history or while we are at it, what about a thorough explanation on etc……..hey you might as well ask for all that while your at it ;)

I most certainly applaud your thoroughness in the extensive way you have outlined all or most of the pertinent questions and for that I commend you, however if it took you a week to just write it up you can imagine the weeks or months it would take to properly answer all of it, and well this forum doesn’t pay me enough to engage in that kind of time ;)

Though perhaps if you can give some of what your thoughts are to some of what you asked, then I can give my opinions on that and well I am sure others can give theirs as well and you can draw your conclusions from there

Or if you would want some recommended sites I can do that as well.



zionists are taking over the world ain't that right IDFM203 :P :lol: hence my location :D

Though like I said to you before, behind all those smiles, you do really believe some of that crap ;) ……….oh well :roll:

I can't and wont dare to think on how long IDFM 203's reply is going to be on this. (But I'm afraid he have to replace his key board at least two times. rofl )For now it will be as long as my sig ;)


Shalom :D
_______________________________________________

"If the Palestinians/Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Israelis put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"!! (Or to put it more bluntly..” if the military capabilities of Israel and the palestinians/Arabs were reversed, all Israelis would be killed in a matter of 24 hours or less”)

“Peace can only come when the Arabs learn to love their own children more then they hate ours” (http://www.israel-wat.com/pics1_eng.htm#a2)

ExtraT
05-18-2004, 09:46 AM
I also inserted a chapter about ARMY ABUSES because I thought it is necessary to talk about importance of changing/re-writing Geneva Convention since we live in era of asymetrical warfare as well as properly


Why would anybody want to rewrite the Geneva Conventions? They are pretty good as they are right now, and they address the questions of asymmetrical warfare very well.
The problem is, that a lot of people don't have a clue about them, but still judge everybody.

Now, about your outline: You center on trivial specifics too much - that's why it came out so huge. In reality, the answer is very simple (it's a quote of israeli PM Golda Meir):

"When Arabs learn to love their children more than they hate us, this conflict will end".



And another thing: for general education about the conflict, I suggest you read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0929093135/qid=1084887725/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9__i9_xgl14/103-2959507-6466235?v=glance&s=books

UkrainianAmerican
05-18-2004, 09:53 AM
Since the topic temporarily turned to the Geneva Convention can somene explain me the logic behind abnning dum-dum bullets, yet allowing bullets like 5.56 nato, (and its AK74 counterpart) which happen to tumble upon entering flesh.
Regards.

ExtraT
05-18-2004, 10:05 AM
Since the topic temporarily turned to the Geneva Convention can somene explain me the logic behind abnning dum-dum bullets, yet allowing bullets like 5.56 nato, (and its AK74 counterpart) which happen to tumble upon entering flesh.
Regards.

Well, first of all, 5.56 rarely gets the chance to tumble, cause it starts tumbling after it penetrated 5 inches or something. Usually, it exits the body before it starts tumbling. This is concidered to be a failure of 5.56.

Second, I believe, dum-dum bullets cause much more damage than a tumbling bullet. So, it's simply a question of degree of damage.

UkrainianAmerican
05-18-2004, 10:16 AM
Since the topic temporarily turned to the Geneva Convention can somene explain me the logic behind abnning dum-dum bullets, yet allowing bullets like 5.56 nato, (and its AK74 counterpart) which happen to tumble upon entering flesh.
Regards.

Well, first of all, 5.56 rarely gets the chance to tumble, cause it starts tumbling after it penetrated 5 inches or something. Usually, it exits the body before it starts tumbling. This is concidered to be a failure of 5.56.

Second, I believe, dum-dum bullets cause much more damage than a tumbling bullet. So, it's simply a question of degree of damage.
I read a story about how Soviet "advisors" in Vietnam were impressed by the damage the m16 5.56 bullet caaused, and this led to the design of the AK74 round. Or was that more of an exception then the rule?
Regards.

Javehn
05-18-2004, 10:28 AM
Since the topic temporarily turned to the Geneva Convention can somene explain me the logic behind abnning dum-dum bullets, yet allowing bullets like 5.56 nato, (and its AK74 counterpart) which happen to tumble upon entering flesh.
Regards.

Well, first of all, 5.56 rarely gets the chance to tumble, cause it starts tumbling after it penetrated 5 inches or something. Usually, it exits the body before it starts tumbling. This is concidered to be a failure of 5.56.

Second, I believe, dum-dum bullets cause much more damage than a tumbling bullet. So, it's simply a question of degree of damage.

Bull**** . One of our commanders in Platoon recieved incomming 5.56 ' from a zero distance . I mean , really zero distance , and it still travelled in his body . He recieved it in his shoulder , and it passed santimeter from the main artery near the heart , comming back out from the shoulder .

ExtraT
05-18-2004, 10:36 AM
Bull**** . One of our commanders in Platoon recieved incomming 5.56 ' from a zero distance . I mean , really zero distance....


You misunderstand what I said. :)

I meant 5 inches inside the body. That is, if the bullet travels 5 inches or more inside the body, it starts to tumble and fragment.

weedman
05-18-2004, 12:38 PM
“Peace can only come when the Arabs learn to love their own children more then they hate ours” (http://www.israel-wat.com/pics1_eng.htm#a2)

w0rd

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040515/i/r2495866385.jpg

:roll: :roll:

Ichhabe
05-18-2004, 12:58 PM
To weedman and Javehn and any other that can't seem to stay on topic. Please try at least to stay away from this thread. Finally someone come in and try to get a un-normal debate about the situation in the Middle-East. But you guys hijack it as a elite member of the Black September. :bash:


(do you understand my use of "un-normal?)

IDFM203
05-18-2004, 12:59 PM
:roll:

How does that pic disprove what I said?? :roll: :roll:

And indeed its sad (and used very skillfully for pali propaganda purposes that’s why the kids are always there) but that kid wasn’t purposely targeted when Israel went after the pali murderers and unfortunately in war even if we are very careful to avoid it, which we are, still it’s a sad reality that civilians can sometime get in the cross fire (or a lot of times with the palis those kids are placed there on purpose as my line pertains to), oh and this is unlike what the palis do a lot when they mostly target ONLY civilians.

Anyways again your pic has nothing to do with the line I brought down….how about you click on it so you can have a better understanding.

Or to add one that I am not sure is there.

http://www.israel-wat.com/abuse.jpg

You just don’t get it weedman…read my line again and then step back and then think.

Whatever you view on the conflict on who is right or wrong or even that pic you brought and your thoughts on it, it has no bearing on the line I brought down.

Shalom :D

Argyll
05-18-2004, 01:03 PM
;) Here we go.....................

IDFM203
05-18-2004, 01:08 PM
;) Here we go.....................hehe :lol: well you knew it was inevitable :roll:

I just hope that RavenW comes with more posts, for I have gone over the debate before very extensively and as such I felt it would take up way too much time to rehash everything in great detail, however I am perhaps willing to respond to RavenW further posts if he so chooses to do so.

I suggest if it does get serious then erase weedmans post as well as my response to it for indeed it is a hijacking of what could be a thoughtful thread.

Shalom :D

Argyll
05-18-2004, 01:09 PM
I'm sitting on it for now,but as usual he's here to light fires,and offer nothing constructive to the topic ;)

Shalom Buddy :D

Javehn
05-18-2004, 01:10 PM
To weedman and Javehn and any other that can't seem to stay on topic. Please try at least to stay away from this thread. Finally someone come in and try to get a un-normal debate about the situation in the Middle-East. But you guys hijack it as a elite member of the Black September. :bash:


(do you understand my use of "un-normal?)

Icchhabe , can you explain me how the **** did i became the star of your post . I can have good discussion , but how come you classified me like that , i want to know ? Explain me how come you adress this to me , will you ? :bash: :bash: :bash:

Ichhabe
05-18-2004, 01:10 PM
IDFM203: Don't you ever get tired? This is getting so boring. Here we had the chance to learn a quite bit more. But you and weedman is hacking on this with such stamina that I actually get somehow impressed. You are like a Perpetum Mobile.

Javehn
05-18-2004, 01:14 PM
edited ;)

Ichhabe
05-18-2004, 01:16 PM
To weedman and Javehn and any other that can't seem to stay on topic. Please try at least to stay away from this thread. Finally someone come in and try to get a un-normal debate about the situation in the Middle-East. But you guys hijack it as a elite member of the Black September. :bash:


(do you understand my use of "un-normal?)

Icchhabe , can you explain me how the f*** did i became the star of your post . I can have good discussion , but how come you classified me like that , i want to know ? Explain me how come you adress this to me , will you ? :bash: :bash: :bash:

Sorry, I was a little hasty. It was meant towards RussianAmerican because he started to ask about ballistiucs. You replied on that and you know how all you Russian look the like. You were like twins to me. ;)

And I hope the stick you beat me with is at least made of walnut. I hate being bashed with simple pine or ash. :D

IDFM203
05-18-2004, 01:16 PM
Ichhabe,

Well read my last response as for learning or what this thread could and should get to...btw I usually don’t respond to weedman and there are plenty of his absurd posts and one liners that I have outright ignored.... however that pic in reponse to my line I felt I needed to respond to.

perhaps it was a mistake...anyways read my last post and what I suggested.

btw I must profess ignorance on what exactly is a Perpetum Mobile?? Somehow I don’t think I am going to like the answer ;) :roll:

Shalom :D

Javehn
05-18-2004, 01:17 PM
Sorry dude :oops: . I have bad temper today . :oops:

Ichhabe
05-18-2004, 01:18 PM
Raven W: How many years did it take you just to write down those questions?

Not that I'm the one with the power to do so, but: If you have the answer to half of those questions and solutions for just 1/3 of them: Then you truly is the just King to rule Israel, and be the Emperor of Palestine. ;)

And almost forgot: Congratulations on the most thorough 1.post ever on this forum. I can't and wont dare to think on how long IDFM 203's reply is going to be on this. (But I'm afraid he have to replace his key board at least two times. rofl )

Yea , unlike other now this is very constructive and intellegent responce to the thread . :bash: :bash:

Well, sorry for being a little bit humurous when welcoming him with his first post. As if I did not know that the thread would not create a **** storm. No calm down.

Javehn
05-18-2004, 01:19 PM
Sorry , dude! :lol:

beklager , Icchi ;)

AirZone
05-18-2004, 01:42 PM
I think he can get doctor to middle east if he manages to write a book about this.. :lol:

big80a2
05-18-2004, 02:26 PM
hi there RavenW Welcome and thanks for a verry nice piece of work.
Will try to answer a lot but not rightnow ;)
I have printed it so I could read it at the Beach :P ;)

after reading it it looked like I don't have to show my few on the conflict some questions are answering themself ;)

Only some little bugs:

l. Anti-Semitism.

hh. Anti-Semitism.

L and hh are both called Anti-semitism.

Also in the diffrent stances of views I miss the few from a christian view of point.

Butt I will try to do something with it :)

chears

Moledet
05-18-2004, 03:39 PM
Did you visit the area? If you didn't then you can't realy write a good work.

big80a2
05-18-2004, 04:27 PM
Did you visit the area? If you didn't then you can't realy write a good work.

well think this is for RavanW but heyit's behind my post... so ;)

yes I visited the area, actually lived there for 7 years and visit Israel often.
Have nice Israeli and Arab friends overthere.

chearz

RavenW
05-18-2004, 04:41 PM
Thanks a lot evryone for responces. I really can't answer right now, because I am at work (Ironically, my work today is to explain Israeli-Palestinian conflict to students in High School [this is my part time job]).

I don't have time to respond to you right now, but after work I promise you, I will read all of the responces carefully, and try to answer those who interested in positive dialoge.

See you after work. :D

SpikeATGM
05-19-2004, 12:35 AM
:roll:


http://www.israel-wat.com/abuse.jpg

Shalom :D

I would have no sympathy for those chaps behind if they were ever shot at. Afterall they should just stay away and let the terrorist confront the troops directly.

Kilgor
05-19-2004, 01:25 AM
and as soon as one of those kids cop a bullet in the head, the media is all over it as a vile act of Israeli aggression.

Btw, is it true they found a tunnel entrance hidden under a babies crib ?

RavenW
05-19-2004, 03:14 AM
Hey, guys! Let me answer to everyone step-by-step and then I would like to return to the original topic and try to clarify my position.

IDFM203

I am just curious, would you also like a vs by vs explanation of the entire bible, or actually what about a whole rendition of the roman empire and history or while we are at it, what about a thorough explanation on etc……..hey you might as well ask for all that while your at it

I understand and share your sarcasm about such absurd idea as trying to write a definitive work about the conflict. After all, if that would be the case such book would already exist.

Nevertheless, it is important to remember that for the Historical science we try to recreate and understand the motives of people/nations and issues that surrounded them in that particular period.

Final thought, on this matter, it is for my own amusement and thus does not make it harmful to anyone, right? I just want to understand the conflict better for MYSELF first, and only then I could explain the main issues of the conflict to someone else (like my high school students) and respectfully disagree with someone (like people who tend to wave the flags without understanding the actual matter first).


Though perhaps if you can give some of what your thoughts are to some of what you asked, then I can give my opinions on that and well I am sure others can give theirs as well and you can draw your conclusions from there

Sure. That is what I actually wanted.

You see I did not post it here to start another flame war; I have some specific questions to anyone that may know more about the conflict than I do.

Here is a list of my particular questions:

1. From all my Israeli friends, Lebanese Christian friend and Syrian Christian friend I learned that there were some massacres of innocent civilians done by Palestinian Arabs in Lebanon in 1980s.

I am interested in those particular massacres, not during other decades. I remember reading an article of retired colonel of IDF who witnessed the actual bodies of victims and helped Lebanese Arabs to bury women and children who were murdered by Palestinians.

I was stupid enough to forget the name of the Lebanese town where tis pogrom took place.

The exact numbers of that particular massacre were between 1500-2000 civilians and it was carried out by PLO before Palestinian civilians were slaughtered in Sabra and Shatilla. If you remember or know about this incident, please, send me the name of the town.

2. Do you remember the name of Jewish hospital whose personnel was completely slaughtered by Palestinian Arab “militants” after Jewish doctors saved “militants” lives and treated their wounds in 1947? Once again, I saw Israeli chief doctor of this hospital showing the pictures of those brave medical heroes who were murdered in cold blood by their Arab patients.

3. Where can I find the actual full and complete list of pogroms and attacks against Jews and their property carried out by Arab neighbors during 1930s/40s?

And if this list does not exist, why Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs would not publish one? Are they morons? I mean, who works in the department of information and international image control?

Why honest American has to search the web and archives piece by piece and bit-by-bit in order to find crimes of Palestinians, while in order to hear about “crimes of evil Zionists” one just have to simply click a button or two?

4. Were there pogroms in Haifa? I remember reading about one, but I forgot exact date and number of Jewish civilians murdered by their Arab neighbours.

5. Is there a good web-site where I could read about the active involvement of Egyptian intelligence officers in preparation of “operations” against Israeli civilian buses in Negev dessert in 1954.

6. In 1954, after the series of “operations” that Egyptian intelligence carried out against some passenger buses in Negev desert and the attacks of some civilian center in Israeli South by Palestinian “fedayeen” (how they called themselves then), a series of unsuccessful Israeli “operations” were carried out by groups of Jewish Egyptians that involved “sabotage” (bombing) of Cairo’s civilian centers such as movie theater, Cairo main train station and other downtown centers in order to direct the attention of Great Britain to the destabilizing situation in Egyptian territory.

Later Israeli government took responsibility that such so-called covert “operations” were designed by one of the officers of its intelligence branch without actual knowledge and approval of Prime Minister.

Israel made an official apology to the nation of Egypt that was still refusing to recognize Israel existence at that time.

Have you ever heard of such "operations"? Was anyone hurt in the process of bombing of a movie theater except Jewish “activist” who carried it out?

If you remember the incident, what particular steps were done by the government to prevent the possibility of such “operations” in the future.
("It's not about terrorism, it's how your government authority deals with it" <- my personal thought)

Was it then that Knesset declared that such Mossad operations must be approved by Prime Minister himself and chief of Mossad had no right to authorize the "operation" in which targets would involve civilian places like mail offices and restaurants.

7. In the end of 1970s, CIA tried to eliminate one of Hesbollah authorities in Lebanon by blowing up car full of explosives parked next to the exit from local mosque, the result was devastating – 89 civilians dead (mostly women and children) and many more wounded, Hesbollah leader survived the assassination..
If someone remembers this incident please write about it and the actions of American government. Did director of CIA resigned that year? I think he did, but I am not sure, I forgot.

Also If someone remembers the particular steps in which democratic governments of USA and Israel responded to their own people’s terrorism participation.

It's not about terrorism, it's how your government authority deals with it

Israel if I am not mistaken arrested the branch of right-wing terrorist extremists in Israel and took some serious action to prevent Jewish terror groups to embarrass the nation, but left-wing (anti-pioneers/anti-settlers) extremists were left untouched.



Sorry, that I was able to answer only to one person, but I wanted to cleriy some event in Middle East. Later, I try to respond to other posts.

Javehn
05-19-2004, 03:54 AM
Multiply questions you have . It will help if you will brake down your point on little paragraphs . Many people here work , and they don't have time to read and adress all the points . I personnally hate to read something more then 10 lines , i am getting bored and sleepy . :lol:

Your first question :

From all my Israeli friends, Lebanese Christian friend and Syrian Christian friend I learned that there were some massacres of innocent civilians done by Palestinian Arabs in Lebanon in 1980s.

13 April 1975 , Palestinians shoot at Cristian Chappel in Beiruth suburbia . That was a starting point of Civil war in Lebanon . Falanga party responded offcorse and shoot down bus with Palestinians . And so it went downhill from there .

In the end of October 1975 , Palestinians took Kantari region killing big number of civilians . In 20 January Palestinians took the city of El-Damur , and slaughtered 500 Cristian inhabitants . It came as a responce for Falanga attack on Karantina Palestine refugee camp at 18 Jan 1976 , killing there aprox 1000 inhabitants .

Falangas (Cristian Marronite party in Lebanon) were no angels at all as well . When Muslim started to repel Falanga attacks and pull them back , Cristians asked for Syrian help to repell it . Syrians took this golden opportunity , and at 12 August 1976 Falanga with Syrian tanks and Artyllery circled Palestinian refugee camp Tel Zaatar , and slaughtered 1000 palestinians . That did it , Palestinians stoped their war inside Lebanon for a short , and take bigger effort on Israel . Falanga meanwhile tried to bring Israel inside the conflict after they had it with Syria ( Look for Khana massacre ) , and Israel took the bite (The genuine offer of Falanga , you help us with Syria and Palestinians , sence the enemy of my enemy is our friend) . Yes , one big unhappy salad .

About Sabra and Shatilla - it was taken down by Falangist , and had nothing to do with Israeli Army . There is what is called SLA-South Lebanon Army . It was made by Israelies during 1978 operation "Litani" . It was named inittialy "Army of Free Lebanon" until 1980 , and had besides Marronite christians 2 Battalions of Shia Muslims ,and 1 battalion of local Druze (another sect in ME salad) . They got Israeli gear , Israeli uniforms , and even got paid by Israel .
And there is Falangists - This is Cristian indeppendent Lebaneze party that was made in 1936 . So , as you see , Falanga party and SLA army are 2 different things . One is onder direct control of Israel (SLA, or AFL before 1980) , and the other is independent , and had some type of small collaboration with Israel .

Sabra and Shattila was made by Falangists , and not SLA . IDF didn't knew about their planes , and after 3 days the suspicion of IDF soldiers got up , as they understood something "not kosher" going on inside those refugee camps . They got inside , and took Falanga troops out of there .
One of PR victories of Palestinians against Israel is , that they managed to blame the entire Sabra and Shatila on Israel and IDF , and that caused a commity in Israel , and Sharon stape down from his role as a defence minister .






2. Do you remember the name of Jewish hospital whose personnel was completely slaughtered by Palestinian Arab “militants” after Jewish doctors saved “militants” lives and treated their wounds in 1947? Once again, I saw Israeli chief doctor of this hospital showing the pictures of those brave medical heroes who were murdered in cold blood by their Arab patients.

My history knowledge unfortunatly is not high on that matter . I will presume you are talking about "Haddasa" hospital on Mount Scopus (Har Hatsofim . Hebrew Univercity also based on that mount) , that was cut off by Jordanian Legion , and stayed that way until it was liberated back in 1967 .

citizen-k
05-19-2004, 05:18 AM
I didn't see the word "Water" :roll:

It's a long long list... do you have anything written already?

big80a2
05-19-2004, 07:26 AM
Javehn wrote:

In the end of October 1975 , Palestinians took Kantari region killing big number of civilians . In 20 January Palestinians took the city of El-Damur , and slaughtered 500 Cristian inhabitants . It came as a responce for Falanga attack on Karantina Palestine refugee camp at 18 Jan 1976 , killing there aprox 1000 inhabitants .



what I read about it is that, and I quote (from armies in Lebanon):


In January 1976 PLO units attacked the Christian city of Damour on the main highway south of beirut. A quarter of it's population of 40,000 were killed in the battle or massacred afterwards, and the remainder forced to flee. In revenge, in October 1976 the Christian militias laid siege to the Tel Zaatar refugee camp north of Beirut for 50 days. When the camp fell, no quarter was given to the survivors, and the slaughter rivalled that of Damour.

RavenW
05-19-2004, 05:32 PM
It's a long long list... do you have anything written already?

Lets start with chapter 2. :)




2. DEFINITIONS of TERMS and CONCEPT APPROACH.

I. NECESSARY DEFINITIONS (What is _? For our
discussion lets define terminology). Write about the
IMPORTANCE OF DEFINITION and RIGHT TERMINOLOGY for our
study.
a. Happiness.

Happiness is very philosophical and personal issue.
For our discussion, I decided to give primitive
definition of what can be considered happiness if
there would be a need to use such word in our
discussion.

Definition (for our discussion):
Happiness – a state of human being, when such being
feels security, comfort and satisfaction in his/her
own life.
Happiness (alternative definition) – absence of
tragedy/absence of unhappiness.

b. Peace.
Definition (for our discussion):
Peace – state of human society when society and
people in it as a whole can live in happiness without
a fear of war.

For our discussion, I assume that the ultimate
goal of resolving the conflict is to achieve peace and
happiness for people who live in the region.

c. Absence of Peace.
Definition (for our discussion):
Absence of Peace does not necessary mean war; it
is just actual absence of such condition (as peace) in
the fabric of society. Traditionally, for our
discussion, we would consider “absence of peace” as
presence of violence/insecurity in people’s lives.

d. War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Extreme case of “Absence of Peace” or special
state of relationship between groups of nations or
groups of people, when sides resolve conflict through
the extreme violent confrontation without presence of
police force between sides that could control the
level of violence.

Generally, when we talk about wars we talk about
HIC (High Intensity Conflicts) and extreme violence.
War is the state of society that rules by laws that
are different from the one present in peacetime.
War can be called armed conflict between
countries or groups that involves killings and
destruction.

e. Spiral (cycle) of violence/tit-for-tat - why it
does not apply for this conflict.
Definition (for our discussion):
Spiral (cycle of violence)/tit-for-tat -
repeated circle of violence in which attacks do not
serve any other purpose than mere revenge for the
previous action of a cycle. Thus, making those acts
useless for both sides of the conflict.

Note: Spiral of violence is fundamentally
different from the acts of controlled violence
performed by armed forces or police in order to
prevent the future possible attacks as well as to stop
them all together.

Controlled violence performed by armies during
the times of war as well as actions of police force
and acts of self-defense do NOT necessary stop all the
perpetrators of attack immediately, but it still does
not allow anyone to put an equal sign between the
actions of firefighters (army) and gang-formations
(fire).

The actions of those two groups are completely
different in nature as well as in style and methods.
There is fundamental difference between their goals.

f. Terrorism/Acts of Terror.
Definition (for our discussion):
Terrorism is a deliberate (intentional) act of
violence where civilian non-combatants are the main
targets of attack.

Note: Terrorism is a peacetime equivalent of “war
crime”.
War crime can be a deliberate (intentional) act of
violence where civilian non-combatants are the main
targets of attack during the times of war.

Specific examples of terrorism:
A bomb that is placed in civilian market with intent
to harm/murder innocent bystanders (civilians) who
belong to some particular religious/ethnic group or
been chosen by terrorist(s) indiscriminately from
random visitors of this market is terrorism.

The same bomb placed five blocks from this market at
the entrance to the military base and whose explosion
resulted in the murder of innocent passer-by would be
an act of guerrilla warfare with poorly plan of attack
that produced mass collateral damage.

Nuances/Important differences of “terrorism” from
other terms:
Example #1: A bomb that is placed on the road with
intent to harm/murder soldiers of enemy force cannot
be counted as terrorist attack because it is a
guerilla type of attack even if civilian
non-combatants died as a result of pre-mature
explosion.
The perpetrators of an attack did not target civilian
non-combatants on purpose thus their deaths resulted
as unintentional collateral damage.

Example #2: Nuclear strike/precision strike on a
military installation that resulted in the death of
civilian non-combatants that were in direct proximity
of the strike is not an act of terrorism, since it is
carried out as an act of war and does not
intentionally target civilian non-combatants of that
particular area/it was not intended for the murder of
civilians.

That is why it is important to keep the military
installations like barracks, bases, power plants,
artillery pieces and cars from civilian locations.
Both sides must avoid placing their forces in civilian
neighborhoods, as they must understand that such
positions are potential targets of attack from
opposing force. Therefore, the forces that place their
military installations like cars and headquarters in
areas that are densely populated by civilians carry
the responsibilities that arise from their death by
opposing force as collateral damage of war.

Example #3: Any civilian death that resulted from
unintentional/accidental targeting of civilians can be
declared as unfortunate collateral damage.

Example #4: The attack on such military installation
as building of Pentagon can be considered an act of
war or guerrilla type of attack, but the attack on
such civilian installation such as World Trade Center
(NY) can be considered a terrorist attack during
peacetime or “war crime” during times of war.

Example #5: The destruction of Kabul’s home for
elderly and disabled citizens of Afghanistan can be
considered an unfortunate collateral damage since it
was targeted mistakenly (not on purpose/cruise missile
malfunction) and by accident in the fog of war.

Example #6: Bombing of U.S. Marines barrack in Beirut
can be considered act of guerrilla warfare during the
times of war or unprovoked surprise attack that starts
the war between the sides that participated in the
attack because the intended target was a military
personal of opposing force that was on active duty
deployed for combat in the foreign nation.
However, targeting of the same U.S. Marines by armed
opponents in the sanctity of their civilian homes in
America would an act of terrorism since they are
off-duty and not in active army and therefore they
become civilian non-combatants.

Even more to say, targeting of Palestinian militants
in the sanctity of their homes can be considered
lawful acts of war and NOT acts of terrorism since
Palestinian militants converted their home civilian
facilities into actual active military headquarters of
terrorists organizations, thus making them a military
installation (barracks/bases) in the densely populated
areas of residence. Therefore, home/military
installations can be targeted as any other military
installation including car, boat or any other type of
a vehicle that militants/terrorists use as a military
equipment or weapon.

Moreover, terrorists refusal to recognize Geneva
Convention and their repeated offences against Codes
and Laws of War make them official ‘”unlawful/illegal
combatants”. This status assigned to them even by
military during thr battle and in official military
correspondents. Thus, we can argue that Geneva
Convention designed for armed soldiers of conventional
army does not apply to those paramilitary formations
that do not recognize its authority and actively
participate in as many “war crimes” and “terrorism” as
possible.

Technically, since Geneva Convention does not say
anything about unlawful combatants and deals only with
lawful combatants (soldiers wearing uniform) and
civilian non-combatants, we can assume that we do not
have to apply it in the treatment of those individual
who refuse its protection in the first place and who
do not recognizing its authority. For more
information, see Chapter about TERRORISM and ARMY
ABUSES.

Last Important Note about terrorism:
ONCE A TERRORIST – ALWAYS A TERRORIST.
Someone’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist – NOT a
freedom fighter.
This means that even if person participates in other
types of warfare, they can be and must be labeled
terrorists if they actively participate in creation,
ordering or carrying out terror attacks.

For example, if person loves his family and community
during day, but murders and tortures children by
night, such person can be considered an “evil” being
even though he/she can accomplish lots of good things
in life.
If person acts as a true gentleman with his lady, but
rapes other women, such person cannot be labeled as
decent and can justly be labeled as a pig (no offense
to innocent animals).
In the same manner, if person commits acts of
non-violent resistance during some part of a day and
then another part of a day actively participates in
creation or carrying out terror attacks, such person
cannot be called “freedom fighter”, “struggler”,
“militant” etc. He/she is a terrorist.

ONCE A TERRORIST, ALWAYS [stay] A TERRORIST.
No excuses. No double standard.

g. [b]Guerrilla attacks/Acts of War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Guerrilla attacks – type of warfare where one
side (usually paramilitary) uses non-conventional
(asymmetrical) style of warfare against opposing force
(usually a conventional army) in order to win the
battle and/or achieve its goals.

Examples of guerrilla attacks:
Example: Armed resistance of paramilitary force
from local population (militants/partisans) that uses
attacks against a conventional army of enemy in order
to liberate particular territory from enemy control
(end of occupation).
Note: Those guerrillas who actively participate
in terror attacks and use terrorism as tactical as
well as strategic tool for their goal cannot be called
“liberators”, because in order to be labeled partisan,
person must abstain from the actions described under
the definition of “terrorism”. * - Look terrorism.

Guerrilla - irregular militant, usually
politically motivated: a member of an irregular
paramilitary unit, usually with some political
objective such as the overthrow of a government.
Guerrillas usually operate in small groups to harass
and carry out sabotage. (guerrilla warfare).

h. Collateral damage.
Definition (for our discussion):
Collateral damage - unintended damage to
civilian life or property during a military operation.

i. Codes of War.
Definition (for our discussion):
Codes of War – some written and non-written, but
traditionally recognized laws that govern the process
of war and the way it should be carried out.
For example, such thing as declaration of war,
traditional agreement not to harm civilian
non-combatants that might be in the location of active
conflict or at least minimize damage wherever
situation permits to do so without putting lives of
soldiers in unnecessary danger. Effort of both sides
to minimize the collateral damage that cannot be
avoided during armed conflict can be called one of the
traditions of conventional warfare.

Example: When during Battle for Berlin, Russian
soldier risked his live in order to get the little
German girl from the line of fire, he committed a
courageous act of heroism, but in theory noone require
this action from him because of serious risk that
involved his personal safety of going at the line of
fire and taking her from the ruins of Berlin strasse.
Because of his courage and good heart and in
recognition of carrying out even more duties than the
one described under the Codes of War (that technically
would permit him to witness the death of the girl by
some ricochet), German people placed a memorial
monument in his owner in Berlin.

j. Bias.
Definition (for our discussion):
Bias – unjustified and unsupported assumption
about something that appears in persons thinking
process as well as in his/her views and writings that
develop independently without actual knowledge about
matter or subject.
Bias – an unfair preference or dislike of
something.

Examples:
Bias toward particular group when we talk about
rightful ownership of West Bank of Jordan River. An
assumption that this particular territory belongs to
one group more than it does to the other is biased
assumption. Bias can be an unfair preference or
dislike of particular ethnic group based on the
refusal to accept a connection of any particular group
to the land of its ancestry or historical homeland.

k. Independence.
l. Anti-Semitism.
m. Occupation.
n. Liberation.
o. Disputed territory.

..........

to be continued...



it does take a lot of time just to define the concept aproach for this conflict. Do you agree with me on terminology?

IDFM203
05-19-2004, 06:28 PM
RavenW,

First of all you misunderstood my initial sarcasm for I was in no way questing the validity or the need for such a book, just in how you ask it here as if you honestly except to get a book in response full of answers ;)

Again there simply is no time for that from what is a forum where most of us treat it as a hobby or as a distraction from what else they have going on in life.

Like I said it would take a long time for someone to properly answer your first post (and now your second one) and I mean a long time….but again I do applaud you for the structure in which you framed your first post.


Now while I probably can indeed answer most of what you say, I would need to take my time and do lots of research to verify (and get source notes etc…), so as such I hope you can understand my non-answer to your first post (I mean if this was my full time job and this was a real official international policy forum then perhaps but for now I am sure you can understand the limitations of peoples time and energy here in what is just a hobby for a lot of us).


Ok for example I have heard of your question number 6 and I know it led up to what is called as the Lavon affair.

However that and your other questions, like I said before would take up way too much time to give a real and serious answer, so let me recommend you to a site where it does discuss a lot of what you asked (and their search button is also very helpful if you have a hard time finding anything directly from the link I gave you)

For that site click Here (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html)

With that said, I however will probably jump in if I see something which I feel is false or over exaggerated or missing any relevant context ;) , but as of yet I see most of what you wrote doesn’t fall under that so the answer above is the best I can do for now.

Shalom :D

RavenW
05-19-2004, 10:05 PM
IDFM203 Thanks a lot man for responding, I completely understand.

Tell you the truth, I did it mostly for myself caase I was already sick and tired of the amount of false information on the web and people who spread propaganda across the world without thinking twice of what they are actually saying.

I guess, we might leave this post as it is for now... :) :D

Have to be honest, it was just pretty cool to try to write thing like this. I hope one day, people of Earth would realize that there is no simple answers in the conflict like this one and that it is morally wrong to call for the destruction of entire state and its inhabitants.

Let the peace be with your People.

Shalom! :D

RavenW
05-19-2004, 10:29 PM
P.S. If you ever in future see a book titled "Israel and Palestine: The look of bystander" - buy it, man! :lol: :oops: :D

citizen-k
05-20-2004, 08:20 AM
I don't know if you have this issue on your list, but I think you should add it: Many Israelis are not originaly form the Middle-East - Until recent years the government was based mainly on people who were originaly from Europe or America. (All Prime ministers were originaly from Europe except one - Golda Meir, who is from America + Netanyahu & Barak who were born in Israel, but their parents are originaly from Europe & America)

The reason this issue is important is because there are huge differences between what one side is meaning - and what the other side understands.

Another related issue is the total denial of the Holocaust in the Arab world... (On one hand they deny the thing ever happened, but on the other they accuse Israel for being as bad as the Nazis...go figure :cantbeli: )

weedman
05-20-2004, 12:29 PM
RavenW, you should add "war crimes" to your "DEFINITIONS of TERMS ". :|

AirZone
05-20-2004, 12:45 PM
RavenW, you should add "war crimes" to your "DEFINITIONS of TERMS ". :|
DING DONG THE TROLL IS BACKKKKKKKKK ! :fork: :fork: :-*$ :-*$
Warcrimes... if stopping the terrorists groups means warcrimes then by all means I support warcrime !!!


BTW who says its a warcrime ? the arab world ? they say 20,000 houses where flatten but only 4.5 were REALLY destroyed.. go figure

weedman
05-20-2004, 12:52 PM
Warcrimes... if stopping the terrorists groups means warcrimes then by all means I support warcrime !!!

Ah I see, that is just war against terror (graphic). (http://onnachrichten.t-online.de/c/19/83/10/1983102,tid=i.jpg)


BTW who says its a warcrime ? the arab world ? they say 20,000 houses where flatten but only 4.5 were REALLY destroyed.. go figure
Amnesty, the League of Arab States, PA etc. etc.

S'13
05-20-2004, 01:01 PM
[quote]Ah I see, that is just war against terror

It's a war against terror in which the terrorists involve civilians...

RavenW
05-20-2004, 01:36 PM
RavenW, you should add "war crimes" to your "DEFINITIONS of TERMS ".

Why should I include something that is already there in the first place?



ISRAEL and PALESTINE (The Conflict)

The look of bystander

Outline/plan and chapter content

...........................

2. DEFINITIONS of TERMS and CONCEPT APPROACH.

I. NECESSARY DEFINITIONS (What is _? For our discussion lets define terminology). Write about the IMPORTANCE OF DEFINITION and RIGHT TERMINOLOGY for our study.

..........................


mm. Crime. (Traditional definition).
nn. Crime against Humanity.
oo. War Crime.


................................



Please read the outline more carefully. It was always there.
Same goes for "water" that goes under chapter of important issues, and Holocaust denial that goes under Chapter 9.




9. HISTORY OF CONFLICT between British Mandate and Madrid/Oslo Peace Talks


aa. Arab support of Nazi Germany in 1940s.

cc. Palestinian Arabs and the genocide of Jews in Europe.


and finally,


Ah I see, that is just war against terror

Yes, unfortunately, War against Islamo-Fascism as any war has its own share of tragedy and collateral damage.
The death of innocent civilian non-combatants is part of it like in ANY OTHER war.

Unfortunately, our enemies chose to use civilian facilities and non-combatants as Hitler used civilian population of Berlin and send 13 year old boys to die for him because he could not face Allies like a man...

Anyway, this is my first and last responce to you, since I don't usually believe in dialogue with a person that aproves and justify in ANY way brutal murder of pregnant woman and her children in the middle of road at a point blank range. If this is your idea of military target, then talk is over.

So long.

Javehn
05-20-2004, 01:46 PM
RavenW , there is an Israeli general in reserves , that wrote an article , it's called "The catch of Low intensity conflict" , and it's adresses several issues , like the braking down houses , how the Geneva convention and Israeli conflict goes together , and the catch that Israeli army is inside , while considering what is happening not as war , but a LIC with different set of rules .

Have you read that ? Several points you made looks allike .

Argyll
05-20-2004, 01:48 PM
RavenW, you should add "war crimes" to your "DEFINITIONS of TERMS ". :|

Stop being an asshole and read the whole item before shooting your mouth off...........please stop flaming in these topics.........consider this "another "warning!

weedman
05-20-2004, 01:49 PM
RavenW, you should add "war crimes" to your "DEFINITIONS of TERMS ". :|

Stop being an asshole and read the whole item before shooting your mouth off...........please stop flaming in these topics.........consider this "another "warning!I'm getting tired...when do you finally ban me?

Please deliver you from evil!

AirZone
05-20-2004, 01:58 PM
Warcrimes... if stopping the terrorists groups means warcrimes then by all means I support warcrime !!!

Ah I see, that is just war against terror (graphic). (http://onnachrichten.t-online.de/c/19/83/10/1983102,tid=i.jpg)


BTW who says its a warcrime ? the arab world ? they say 20,000 houses where flatten but only 4.5 were REALLY destroyed.. go figure
Amnesty, the League of Arab States, PA etc. etc.

1) You dont want me to bring photos from suicide bombings in mauls, bus, resturant, night club each... or what about daily attacks that happend (and i mean daily... more than once in a day) before IDF started to act like they do now, OH I FORGOT.. YOU DONT CARE ! go to **** some goat lousy hypocrite and if you so care about the conflict why dont you fly to gaza and have some fun with your HAMAS friends.

2) Amnesty says everything is warcrime... WAR IS WAR not to montion a war when CIVILIANS (not army) CIVILANS acts against you. and the League of the Arab States and PA are not so objective so stop bull**** unless you been in there and really saw what happend (yeah right like the massacare in jenin :roll:)

GOD some times i dont know if you are an idiot or you just love to piss Israelis/Jews/the Humanity

weedman
05-20-2004, 02:05 PM
1) You dont want me to bring photos from suicide bombings in mauls, bus, resturant, night club each... or what about daily attacks that happend (and i mean daily... more than once in a day) before IDF started to act like they do now, OH I FORGOT.. YOU DONT CARE ! go to f*** some goat lousy hypocrite and if you so care about the conflict why dont you fly to gaza and have some fun with your HAMAS friends.
I sure, I love Hamas, suicide attacks and the death of innocents :roll:


2) Amnesty says everything is warcrime... WAR IS WAR not to montion a war when CIVILIANS (not army) CIVILANS acts against you. and the League of the Arab States and PA are not so objective so stop bull**** unless you been in there and really saw what happend (yeah right like the massacare in jenin :roll:)
Well, probably you and me, we are also not very objective.


GOD some times i dont know if you are an idiot or you just love to piss Israelis/Jews/the HumanityCome, don't insult my Jewish friends. :(

Javehn
05-20-2004, 02:20 PM
Who are your Jewish friends ? Noam Chumski , Beni Morris and Yossi Beylin ? :lol:

weedman
05-20-2004, 02:22 PM
Who are your Jewish friends ? Noam Chumski , Beni Morris and Yossi Beylin ? :lol:No, some guys from my school... :roll:

AirZone
05-20-2004, 02:22 PM
I sure, I love Hamas, suicide attacks and the death of innocents :roll: Well its strange you always attack israel and never the palastines... :roll:



Well, probably you and me, we are also not very objective.
Mabye so when I want the best for my country...but im more objective then you because im actually live in here and knows the conflict alot more than you (not to montion people who actually served in there and are in this forum like Javenh and IDFM203 andyou still think you know better than those 2).


Come, don't insult my Jewish friends. :( I never did.. i said that I dont know if you are an idiot or just acts like that becuase you are bored.

Javehn
05-20-2004, 02:23 PM
YYou are still a school student ?

Argyll
05-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Ok guys thanks to the asshole this topic is going to be locked

Weedman instead of acting like an asshole an insisting in being banned,why not just stop visiting and posting,and the whole forum will be a lot better.

hood
05-20-2004, 02:39 PM
I've disabled Weedman's account. Argyll, I'll leave it up to you if you want to re-open this topic or not since he won't be around. Thanks.

Javehn
05-20-2004, 03:58 PM
Palestinian newspaper " El Aiam " adressing this to "Islamic national fighters" : Stop using kids as part of the struggle .

Thisstory was in El Aiam Palestinian newspaper at 7.04.2004 - it was made for the Palestinian children day . It's adressed from "International movement of child protection , Palestine branch" . Ussually Palestinian newspapers come under heavy cenzorship , and if this news got threw it , it really reflects the feelings on Palestinian street .

Issue : Using kids in armed battles .

Unlike your statements and your stand that you do not draft kids from the age bellow of 18 , to fight against the occupation , we witness still here and there actions done where kids drafted to armed resistance operations .

Drafting and using of kids in armed resistance operation violates their rights of kids to live under international standarts . Those kids used by Zayuni (* Zionists) enemy in order to falsify the image of our national Palestinian struggle in international community , and and our legitimate right to struggle and resistance according to international law , and our self definition . So does the Zayunist enemy presents those cases as an overall phenomenon , despite the fact thatthis happend in only several and lonely occasions , as it happend in Nablus county in the last period , if indeed Zayuni claimes are correct . All of this while occupation forces deliberatly commit crimes against children , and brought 536 children to death , and more then 12000 injured , sence the begining of our El Aktsa uprisal . Also , the occupation forces never stoped of trying to draft young Palestinian kids as double agents . So , we request you to discust that matter , and to judge on those who are responsible amongst you of using children in armed struggle , in order to make their lifes better , and protect them .

Out of our worry to Palestinian children , and the nead for them to grow in good and un-abused reallity , and on that matter every thing that can geperdise their safety and lifes , after we shifted the blame on occupation zayuni forces , we request you to do the follow :

Uahad , to stop drafting kids under the age of 18 for armed struggle , for every case and event .

Tnin , we should translate this feelings into acts , and assimilate this stand amongst every member of armed resistance and entire Palestinian society .

Talate , to force the judgement upon those who used kids under the age of 18 for armed fight


Children protection international movement , Palastin branch.
April 2004 .

Denat
05-20-2004, 06:17 PM
I love Hamas, suicide attacks and the death of innocents :roll:

You probably does, as your avatar shows.
I once wrote that to you, but there was no answer, maybe because the whole thread has been locked.

There are people who are narrowminded and they see only that what they want to.

..how many innocent Iraqi civilians were killed?
And how many innocent civilians were killed by the terrorists in the World Trade Center, in Madrid and in other numerous places all around the world? You always seem to forget about the reasons and background of the War on Terrorism and you always blame the U.S. for every homeless dog found dead on any road or highway in Iraq. Oh and by the way, Weedman please tell us how many innocent civilians were executed by your communist idol Che Guevarra?
So once again comes my question:

Weedman please tell us how many innocent civilians were executed by your communist idol Che Guevarra?
I'm looking forward to see your answer.
And I strongly believe that before you say anything against the Israelis, you should change your ****ing commie avatar, you leftist liberal mooron.

Moledet
05-20-2004, 06:22 PM
AirZone, the statistics says that before Defensive shield only 30% from the terror attacks were blocked and after Defensive shield, more then 80% of the terror attacks are being blocked (and it keep raising).

The IDF site once had the statistics on the amount of terror attacks that got blocked and the terror attacks that were made, but they deleted it.

Denat
05-20-2004, 06:22 PM
And one more thing - I'll be very suprised if you answer my question. Out.

I've disabled Weedman's account. Argyll, I'll leave it up to you if you want to re-open this topic or not since he won't be around. Thanks.
:roll: :oops: Oh now I can see why he will not answer my question.
Being honest, I'm glad to see that this notorious leftist-liberal-communist troll, who was flameing around here on daily basis, has been finally banned.

RavenW
05-20-2004, 06:25 PM
Javehn

RavenW , there is an Israeli general in reserves , that wrote an article , it's called "The catch of Low intensity conflict" , and it's adresses several issues , like the braking down houses , how the Geneva convention and Israeli conflict goes together , and the catch that Israeli army is inside , while considering what is happening not as war , but a LIC with different set of rules .

Have you read that ?

No, man. Do you have a link? I would love to read it.


Several points you made looks allike.

Maaan, I am not a general :D yet ;)
But, I guess, it is just common sense. Anyone who would stop been so politicized and look quietly see tat war is ugly, this is just banality.
and wars unfortunately involve deaths of civilians. But there is serious difference between collateral damage and terrorism - actual targeting of civilians on purpose.

That's why Israel fights the war against evil... And I hope you win.

P.S. In any case, if people would permit, I'll continue to post the development of chapters from that outline, as long as I have time for it. (I have a job, you know :) ).

next definitions and term to be continued (next week I try to finish Chapter 2 Part I.).

RavenW
05-20-2004, 06:31 PM
big80a2 thanks a lot for reading it so carefully and for critics.

I notices those mistypes myself, but was lazy enough to replace them.

RavenW
06-07-2005, 10:06 PM
It's been more than a year. :)

SeanAshi
06-07-2005, 10:47 PM
1) You dont want me to bring photos from suicide bombings in mauls, bus, resturant, night club each... or what about daily attacks that happend (and i mean daily... more than once in a day) before IDF started to act like they do now, OH I FORGOT.. YOU DONT CARE ! go to f*** some goat lousy hypocrite and if you so care about the conflict why dont you fly to gaza and have some fun with your HAMAS friends.
I sure, I love Hamas, suicide attacks and the death of innocents :roll:


2) Amnesty says everything is warcrime... WAR IS WAR not to montion a war when CIVILIANS (not army) CIVILANS acts against you. and the League of the Arab States and PA are not so objective so stop bull**** unless you been in there and really saw what happend (yeah right like the massacare in jenin :roll:)
Well, probably you and me, we are also not very objective.


GOD some times i dont know if you are an idiot or you just love to piss Israelis/Jews/the HumanityCome, don't insult my Jewish friends. :(Was this guy serious?