counter-insurgency vs dhimmitude

[red collar]

Hello, I'm new, but I'm taking the chance with a question that's on my mind.

What is Ehud Olmert thinking?

We're seeing many Fatah-linked fighters being released.
We're seeing gas and electricity being sent to the West Bank.
Mahmoud Abbas is being empowered by Israel, the USA and Jordan.
Taxes are/will be redirected into Fatah controled territories.
Tanks/APC's or some kind of armored vehicules will be sold to Fatah.

All this, the releases, the commodities, the money... It should hinder any
kind of griping against Israel in the West Bank. It should prove to the population
that Abbas is the man who can make their lives better.

All this is excellent in terms of counter-insurgency (no I'm not an expert).

But am I the only one who fears that HAMAS will prevail regardless? HAMAS
attacked Fatah and took american weapons destined to Fatah. Weapons and ammo.
I've heard rumors that money destined to Fatah was ending up in HAMAS hands.

I'm just a catholic civilian in Canada who reads the news, but I can't help feeling
a lot of doubt.

Progress is being made in Afghanistan. Progress is being made in Iraq. But in
the West Bank?

When I read Caroline Glick or see new "drive-by shooting" videos on youtube,
I wonder if the West Bank can ever be peaceful.

I bet there's always hope, but I wonder if any of you can see real progress
under Ehud Olmer's watch.

[Mr. Nielsen]

You can't compare what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan with the occupied palestinian territories.

In Afghanistan and Iraq the US and allies have a legitimacy as seen by the population (or at least a majority hopefully), because they are aiding the legitimate governments of Iraq and Afghanistan. And they are there based an international mandate.

It's the oppsite in Israeli occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem and the besieged Gaza. The Israeli troops are against international law and UN resolutions. And they are there to protect the illegal settlers and suppress anyone from taking action against the occupation.

By the way there are no insurgents in the occupied palestinian territories, because the militants/resistance fighters/terrorists are not opposing a legitimate government.

So in terms of countering Hamas the best move would be to start rounding up some of the 400.000 israelis living illegally in the occupied territories, returning them to Israel or whatever country the originally came from. And at the same time start working seriously on ending the occupation which is the source of the conflict.

P.S.: If this was not the answer you were looking for. I'm sure there will soon come others.

[red collar]

Oddly enough, I see what you mean. I don't fully agree that it's illegal since a country should have
the right to defend it's borders, it's not just a privilege given by the United Nations.

Mr. Nielsen, I like your arguement, sir.

...the militants/resistance fighters/terrorists are not opposing a legitimate government.You're right, I can't compare.

Right now, there is no legitimate government to support and the only one you can oppose is Israel.

But can Fatah be empowered enough that some day, it will sit at the negociation table with
Israel and fight it's own rogue elements? Is that even possible?

If some day, the West Bank had it's own security force, it's own legal system and accepted to
co-exist with Israel, I think Ehud Olmert would want the settlers out. Others would not agree to that
but I think it would be on the table.

You wouldn't have "400.000 israelis living illegally in the occupied territories" anymore then, but you'd
still have some in Gaza and the Golan Heights.

So the "problem" would still not be over. The UN would still be passing resolutions against Israel.

Empowering the locals is what we're seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan (elections, cooperation
with law enforcement, some trust in the government). That's what I'm hoping to see in the West
Bank under Mahmoud Abbas, but it's a stretch.

Ehud Olmert hasn't brought peace yet because those who live in the West Bank have to willfully support
a legitimate government of their own before we see any stability. And we're not there yet.

ADDED: Caroline Glick mentions this in her comment on the Annapolis Conference...

Olmert's decision to allow Fatah security forces to receive 25 advanced Russian armored personnel carriers in spite of IDF objections was no doubt a consequence of Bush's appeal to Putin for help.(...)

source (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1195546703899&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull).

She questions Washington's methodes, motives and goals. She doesn't seem happy at all.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Oddly enough, I see what you mean. I don't fully agree that it's illegal since a country should have
the right to defend it's borders, it's not just a privilege given by the United Nations.The problem is that Israel have gone way beyond defending their borders. Since 1967 Israel have systematically worked to incorporate the occupied territories into Israel. 400.000 Israelis are right now living in the occupied territories, at the expense of the legitimate palestinian population.



Right now, there is no legitimate government to support and the only one you can oppose is Israel.In principle there is. At present Mahmoud Abbas from Fatah/PLO is the elected president. And they have a government headed by Ismail Haniyeh from Hamas. The elections were heavily monitored by western observers, and were considered to have been fair elections. But since the militants/resistance fighters/terrorists are fighting the Israelis not their own "governmnet" I say they are not insurgents.

When I say "government" it's because it's open to dispute if the palestinians have anything to govern. The only control small enclaves/ghettos and in all pratical sense the israelis are the ones in control of the occupied territories.



But can Fatah be empowered enough that some day, it will sit at the negociation table with
Israel and fight it's own rogue elements? Is that even possible?

If some day, the West Bank had it's own security force, it's own legal system and accepted to
co-exist with Israel, I think Ehud Olmert would want the settlers out. Others would not agree to that
but I think it would be on the table.What comes first the chicken or the egg. The problem with the palestinians policing themselves is the issue of legitimacy. The problem is that the population sees their own police as an israeli tool to keep them calm why Israel expands the occupation. During the Oslo years the number of illegal settlers doubled, which totally undermined the legitimacy of the palestinian authority.[/quote]



Empowering the locals is what we're seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan (elections, cooperation
with law enforcement, some trust in the government). That's what I'm hoping to see in the West
Bank under Mahmoud Abbas, but it's a stretch.Again it's difficult to empower the population when they are not in control of their daily live and they can't see any hope for freedom and a state of their own. And Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt Fatah/PLO might is not necesarrily the solution.

And this is by the way how the west bank looks at present. The palestinians control considerably less territory than the map suggests.

http://www.mideastweb.org/fmep_israel_settlements_map1.gif

[red collar]

I believe thatIsmail Haniyeh, the Hamas leader, forfeited all right to legitimate power when
he took over Fatah installations by force.

Supported by the population? Possible. Speaks for the population? Possible.

Does he represent the kind of force in power that's headed towards peace? Hell no.

Here's what Abbas is telling his people if they ever find Hamas militants firing rockets into Israel...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MobpaopoI

Here's what Hamas thought of the Annapolis conference...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v1s8eyAdBE

Any questions?

Now, I don't think Mahmoud Abbas will do anything different than Yasser Arafat, but he's the best chance we have.

Note: If you haven't see it, there's a movie called Obsession: Radical Islam's war against the West. In that movie,
there's a short clip of Yasser Arafat chanting "al Jihad, al Jihad, al Jihad" to a joyful crowd.

And this was after Arafat signed the Oslo Accord. So Arafat gave us some double talk, and I expect as much from Abbas.
Same party, same modus operandi.

[Mastermind]

Sounds to me like Mr. Nelson has been reading way too much Palestinian propaganda. Israel removed the settlements years ago...if you have not read a paper in several years, they bull dozed the houses of the settlers to make sure there was no legal resourse for the settlers to take anything back. When the Palis took over those areas, they ripped out the orchards the Israelis had cultivated and destroyed the irrigation systems...everything Israeli was so hated they even tore down the remaining well houses and electrical systems.

As for Israel "occupying" anything in West Bank or Gaza, that also ended. Now, rockets hammer into Israel every day, but no random rockets are launched back into Gaza or West Bank areas...only when targets are presented, like the terrorists setting up rocket launchers or when snipers see Pali sappers and snipers approaching the border areas. Now, almost all of this is coming out of Hamas controlled areas. Today, no Israeli soldiers patrol the Pali camps or territories...they are, for all intents and purposes, a sovereign nation that simply refuses to do anything to help their own people...they Palis constantly have their beggar hands out, even to their sworn enemies...what gall they have to shoot civilians one day and then demand the same victims provide them with good drinking water, electricity and money. Only in the ME does this make any sense.

As for Israel violating UN resolutions, please be more specific? When does Israel get a UN resolution condemning the Hezzis for launching random high explosives into innocent civilian areas on a daily basis? When will the UN resolve for Hamas and Fattah to give back the still missing soldiers they kidnapped only last year???

As for the events since the 67 war, might I remind everyone who is so blind that Israel was attacked by surprise and fought like hell to defend herself form the blatant aggression all around her. Only when she totally kicked the aggressors asses did the assaulting Arab nations demand a UN intervention to save them from Israel. What gall to then demand the conquered areas back. Golan, Sinai, West Bank and Gaza....all would have never been in question if the Arabs nations had remained at peace and had not tried their absurd assaults...same in the 1972 fiasco. Please tell me what conquered nations in history have ever demanded and received in return their conquered territory after being defeated from their acts of aggression. NONE! But, now, Israel is considered "criminal" for rejecting the last claims on Golan...and has given back almost everything she won in that pitiful Arab moment in time in 1967?

Israel pulled out and gave Palestinians their own home lands...something no Arab nation in power over those same areas ever considered doing. Certainly, when Jordan had control, and the Palis were all just "refugees…not “Palestinians"…remember???, Jordan not once gave them anything but the back of a hand. In fact, does anyone recall the great Palestinian exodus as they were thrown out of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and even Lebanon? Not even their own Arab brothers wanted them...yet Israel, their own avowed enemy, is expected to do (and has done) for the Palis what their own Arab brothers would never do?

It is as if the Pali excusers wake up in a brand new world ever single day and have no regard for any reading of history at all.

[red collar]

Sounds to me like Mr. Nelson has been reading way too much Palestinian propaganda. Hehehe. Could be. But that is how he sees it and I don't mind.

I don't agree with all of it, but I don't mind.

There are families of refugees who have been waiting since 1947 to return, and now they've had kids
and grandchildren. They also have a point of view even if I don't agree with it.

As for Israel violating UN resolutions, please be more specific? When does Israel get a UN resolution condemning the Hezzis for launching random high explosives into innocent civilian areas on a daily basis? When will the UN resolve for Hamas and Fattah to give back the still missing soldiers they kidnapped only last year???This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel) could be what is being mentioned. It's on Wikipedia, but it should give us all an idea
of what the United Nations has done to side against Israel.

Some use that list as fodder against Israel, I use it against the United Nations. Basically, throw a
rock in any direction and you'll hit an anti-Israel UN resolution.

Mastermind, I believe you're talking about Yom Kippur in 1973? You know, that time when
Israel chose NOT to have a pre-emptive strike because they just knew the UN would blame
them for everything. And then Israel won again.

Usually, the victors get reparation. Not the losers. But this time there can't be a winner and there
can't be a loser because the UN is involved.

I have issues with the UN.

Ted at Israpundit (http://www.israpundit.com/2007/?p=6655) had issues with Annapolis this week. I don't blame him. He made a list and
it's worth a look. He reached 25 points and gave up (in disgust I guess).

But screw it: There's gotta be hope.


SIDENOTE: Palestine doesn't exist.

"Palestinian" was a term the english used to address all the people in the area, even the jews.
Palestinien arabs don't have a country yet.

I hate to repeat the obvious, but perhaps this was a good time to be redundant.