European's developing anti Echelon technology

[moughoun]

European Researchers Craft New Encryption

Quantum cryptography uses photons' properties to block Echelon, other eavesdropping technology.

Philip Willan, IDG News Service
Monday, May 17, 2004
The European Union will invest $13 million over the next four years to develop a secure communication system based on quantum cryptography, using physical laws governing the universe on the smallest scale to create and distribute unbreakable encryption keys, project coordinators say.

If successful, the project will produce the cryptographer's holy grail--absolutely unbreakable code--and thwart the eavesdropping efforts of espionage systems such as Echelon, which intercepts electronic messages on behalf of the intelligence services of the United States, Britain, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia.

"The aim is to produce a communication system that cannot be intercepted by anyone, and that includes Echelon," says Sergio Cova, a professor from the electronics department of Milan Polytechnic and one of the project's coordinators. "We are talking about a system that requires significant technological innovations. We have to prove that it is workable, which is not the case at the moment." Major improvements in geographic range and speed of data transmission will be required before the system becomes a commercial reality, Cova adds.

"The report of the European Parliament on Echelon recommends using quantum cryptography as a solution to electronic eavesdropping. This is an effort to cope with Echelon," says Christian Monyk, the director of quantum technologies at the Austrian company ARC Seibersdorf Research and project coordinator. Economic espionage has caused serious harm to European companies in the past, Monyk adds. "With this project we will be making an essential contribution to the economic independence of Europe."



Security via Photons
Quantum cryptography takes advantage of the physical properties of light particles, known as photons, to create and transmit binary messages. The angle of vibration of a photon as it travels through space--its polarization--can be used to represent a zero or a one under a system first devised by scientists Charles H. Bennett and Gilles Brassard in 1984. It has the advantage that any attempt to intercept the photons is liable to interfere with their polarization and can therefore be detected by those operating the system, the project coordinators say. An intercepted key would therefore be discarded and a new one created for use in its place.

The new system, known as Secure Communication based on Quantum Cryptography (SECOQC), is intended for use by the secure generation and exchange of encryption keys, rather than for the actual exchange of data, Monyk says.

"The encrypted data would then be transmitted by normal methods," he says. Messages encrypted using quantum mechanics can now be transmitted over optical fibers for tens of miles. The European project intends to extend that range by combining quantum physics with other technologies, Monyk says. "The important thing about this project is that it is not based solely on quantum cryptography but on a combination with all the other components that are necessary to achieve an economic application," he says. "We are taking a really broad approach to quantum cryptography, which other countries haven't done."



International Effort
Experts in quantum physics, cryptography, software, and network development from universities, research institutes, and private companies in numerous countries are contributing to the project, Monyk says. Contributors come from Austria, Belgium, Britain, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Sweden, and Switzerland.

In 18 months, participants will assess progress on various solutions and choose which technologies are the most promising, project coordinators say. SECOQC aims to have a workable technology ready in four years, but will probably require three to four years of additional work before commercial use, Monyk adds.

Cova is more cautious: "This is the equivalent of the first flight of the Wright brothers, so it is too early to be talking already about supersonic transatlantic travel."

Technological challenges include creating sensors that can record the arrival of photons at high speed and photon generators that produce a single photon at a time, Cova says. "If two or three photons are released simultaneously they become vulnerable to interception," he says.

Monyk believes several million people will eventually use the system worldwide. Choosing the users will be a political decision, as organizers want to prevent terrorists and criminals from taking advantage of the completely secure communication network, he says.

"In my view it should not be limited to senior government officials and the military, but made available to all users who need really secure communications," Monyk says. Banks, insurance companies, and law firms may be clients, Monyk says. Law enforcement might be granted access under exceptional circumstances. "It won't be up to us to decide who uses our results," says Milan Polytechnic's Cova. :D

[Kilgor]

The zionist mind control satalites can already read it... ;)

[moughoun]

The zionist mind control satalites can already read it... ;)


Yes, they are alway's one step ahead aren't they

[Midav]

That's what the heads of the 3rd reich thought about enigma.

Just takes one bad apple to jack a machine or someone providing the codes...

[budanski]

Quantum cryptology has always been a buzzword for getting budgets out of the gullible. Unbreakable codes always get broken...

Anyhoo, MajiQ (http://www.magiqtech.com/index.php) announced this (http://news.com.com/2100-1029-5103373.html) last year.

[oldsoak]

- oops , edit.

[Kitsune]

Its hard to explain budanski.
But quantum encryption would indeed be "unbreakable". Its different than Enigma, where there just was a huge number of possibilities. That's the case with any of todays encyptions, many of them would take a time in the magnitude of a universe lenght to crack. But you never truly know...
But with quantum encryption you DO know wether someone is eavesdropping, beacuse the eavesdropper changes the quantum states, so if it works its is impossible to crack, you simply know that the channel is clean or not.

There are some drawbacks however. Quantum encryption only works with optical laser communication, not with radio waves. So only direct sight communication is possible, or optical cable (which could not be of endless lenght, you need built in electronic amplifiers for any greater lenght...and in them you could place a listening device).
Good news is that this kind of communication via laser can transport 10.000 times more data than radio communication (if the size is the same)...and that Europe (and especially Germany) is in the field of satellite laser cross linking technology at least 5 years ahead of the US. ;)

But, as said, radio waves cannot be protected by quantum enceyption (even if it works), that we know already. And that leaves your echelon spooks in the game in any case.

[Midav]

As said, just takes on bad apple.

Dunno about the lead thing.

Lived in Germany most of my life, kept up on a lot of things and from what I heard, Transparent Networks from CA. is doing some impressive work, especially in the near IR field.

IR is even quicker.

[Mark Sman]

Every code can be broken.

Whether it will be is another matter.

Some codes are just nigh on impossible given the state of current tech. But just when you think you are the biggest baddest nerd on the block, someone one ups you.

[Herrmannek]

Its hard to explain budanski.
But quantum encryption would indeed be "unbreakable". Its different than Enigma, where there just was a huge number of possibilities. That's the case with any of todays encyptions, many of them would take a time in the magnitude of a universe lenght to crack. But you never truly know...
But with quantum encryption you DO know wether someone is eavesdropping, beacuse the eavesdropper changes the quantum states, so if it works its is impossible to crack, you simply know that the channel is clean or not.

There are some drawbacks however. Quantum encryption only works with optical laser communication, not with radio waves. So only direct sight communication is possible, or optical cable (which could not be of endless lenght, you need built in electronic amplifiers for any greater lenght...and in them you could place a listening device).
Good news is that this kind of communication via laser can transport 10.000 times more data than radio communication (if the size is the same)...and that Europe (and especially Germany) is in the field of satellite laser cross linking technology at least 5 years ahead of the US. ;)

But, as said, radio waves cannot be protected by quantum enceyption (even if it works), that we know already. And that leaves your echelon spooks in the game in any case.

THats why quantum is ****. Most of the time you can't sendo info over super duper secured network or can't wait untill someone will stop listenning so you must send **** via "open" text...

[Kitsune]

Midav wrote:

Dunno about the lead thing.

Well, I read quite some stuff about it. Europe and especially Germany has consistently supported researches in the field of laser cross linking technology for the last 20 years, the US has not. The assessment was that the technological difference is right now 5 years or more. Of course the US wants to catch up here...and they are of course hugely interested in "technological cooperation" in that field. ;)
Of course all this could be a lie.


Lived in Germany most of my lifeYeah. And? What has this to do with anything?


[...]and from what I heard, Transparent Networks from CA. is doing some impressive work,
...but do you live in California? If not, how can you be sure? Only a Californian can know that, can't he? :roll:
(Btw its certainly possible, that they do something "impressive work" over there).



especially in the near IR field.

IR is even quicker. Nope. Data flow rate is (a bit) slower than visible light, from what I know. But ist much faster than radio waves, true.

[fdt]

Its hard to explain budanski.
But quantum encryption would indeed be "unbreakable". Its different than Enigma, where there just was a huge number of possibilities. That's the case with any of todays encyptions, many of them would take a time in the magnitude of a universe lenght to crack. But you never truly know...
But with quantum encryption you DO know wether someone is eavesdropping, beacuse the eavesdropper changes the quantum states, so if it works its is impossible to crack, you simply know that the channel is clean or not.

There are some drawbacks however. Quantum encryption only works with optical laser communication, not with radio waves. So only direct sight communication is possible, or optical cable (which could not be of endless lenght, you need built in electronic amplifiers for any greater lenght...and in them you could place a listening device).
Good news is that this kind of communication via laser can transport 10.000 times more data than radio communication (if the size is the same)...and that Europe (and especially Germany) is in the field of satellite laser cross linking technology at least 5 years ahead of the US. ;)

But, as said, radio waves cannot be protected by quantum enceyption (even if it works), that we know already. And that leaves your echelon spooks in the game in any case.What if the eavesdropper can disguise his "sneaky" probe as a space radiation, electromagnetic radiation or whatever... How the system is going to decide whether it is eavesdropped or not... ?

[Kitsune]

@fdt:

The actual details are a bit mindboggling but it has something to do with the fact, that the reader (wether he is the intendet recipient of the message or an unintendet eavesdropper), changes the quantum states BY reading it. Therefore it is a communication system where sender and recipient are alerted when someone is eavesdropping. That is the point, that is why it is called a "holy grail"...with other encryption methods it is IMPROBABLE that someone can read it, here it is áctually IMPOSSIBLE (without you knowing it, that is).
Of course you wouldnot know, WHAT the interference was (if there was any), the evil NSA or a natural cause. But you know that the message might have been compromised (and are able to act accordingly). If there is no interference you know for sure that nobody listened.

[moughoun]

ok I posted this because I thought it was interesting, but youare starting to lose me here, remember I'm Irish keep it simple

[fdt]

@fdt:

The actual details are a bit mindboggling but it has something to do with the fact, that the reader (wether he is the intendet recipient of the message or an unintendet eavesdropper), changes the quantum states BY reading it. Therefore it is a communication system where sender and recipient are alerted when someone is eavesdropping. That is the point, that is why it is called a "holy grail"...with other encryption methods it is IMPROBABLE that someone can read it, here it is áctually IMPOSSIBLE.I've heard of the Heisenberg's works and theories... You didn't get my Q... I think. In a real world there is never such a thing as clean transmission that is free of any outside interference. Every system assumint this fact must be taught how to discriminate between actual signal and the "white noise" of different kinds of radiation, emissions (microvawes, sun, power lines, earth magnetsim etc etc...) Q was what if eavesdropper learns to fool the system... making it "believe" that there are natural causes of some inconsistencies not actual eavesdropping...

In Heisenberg's theory a photon of light falling at atom makes it spin differently, so the observation is detectable as the atom behaves different. Problem is in real world when the atom is always "bombed" by photons... so the "white noises" are always present somehow...

[Kitsune]

@fdt: This is a bit newer than Heisenberg. With regard to the simple minded moughoun (hehe, nice to have a pretext here) please refer to the all knowing oracle for further research:

http://www.google.com

And that, to Midavs (and presumably budanskis ;)) relief is still American.



p-)

[moughoun]

@fdt: This is a bit newer than Heisenberg. With regard to the simple minded moughoun (hehe, nice to have a pretext here) please refer to the all knowing oracle for further research:

http://www.google.com

And that, to Midavs (and presumably budanskis ;)) relief is still American.



p-)

Simple minded, I wish, dumb very very dumb, my degree is only in history, sure you can get that off of a box of corn flake's

[fdt]

@fdt: This is a bit newer than Heisenberg. Well, I don't think that the physical principles have changed since... Technology probably did... Now Europe will spend 20 MEur so Yanks will spand 20 times more to break this technology... Instead of politicians trying to hide or read minds couldn't they rather find a way to achieve such a state when nobody will care what the others think... because it will not be anyhow threatening to anyone... Sort of a perfect world ;) ... My conclusion is that where is smth to hide there You will always find a man who wants this to "unhidden"... World spins around, sh*tloads of money are spent and nobody profits of that instead of AT&T, Lucent, Motorola, Siemens, Alcatel, Sagem, Thales, etc. etc... all of taxpayer's money. And Bush, Chirac or Prodi will be able to order their pizza without a risk of other side knowig whether it is with or without anchovis :cantbeli: .

[Kitsune]

@Moughoun: Sry it was only a joke. Possibly I overestimated the Irish humorous capacity, but I would never dare to underestimate an Irishmans intelligence. ;)

@fdt: Echelon spied on Europe (not only on Europe of course) from the start. And obviously there are interesting things here, and it does not look as if this is going to change soon. True is that the US spends much more money for research. But they are also very good in wasting money, it is astonishing what European technology can achieve and it how many fields we ware actually ahead of America...if we overcome our fragmented state at least a bit and would start o spend more for research (and possibly less for agricultural help) we might do even better. Only if we fall far back this spying will stop...until then its about business and economics.
I would say we shpuld start to spy a bit back. We have looked the other way long enough now.

[moughoun]

@Moughoun: Sry it was only a joke. Possibly I overestimated the Irish humorous capacity, but I would never dare to underestimate an Irishmans intelligence. ;)

@fdt: Echelon spied on Europe (not only on Europe of course) from the start. And obviously there are interesting things here, and it does not look as if this is going to change soon. True is that the US spends much more money for research. But they are also very good in wasting money, it is astonishing what European technology can achieve and it how many fields we ware actually ahead of America...if we overcome our fragmented state at least a bit and would start o spend more for research (and possibly less for agricultural help) we might do even better. Only if we fall far back this spying will stop...until then its about business and economics.
I would say we shpuld start to spy a bit back. We have looked the other way long enough now.

But I was agreeing with you,.... oh your good mister very good, I'll have to watch out for you, your a cleaver one :lol:

[fdt]

@Moughoun: Sry it was only a joke. Possibly I overestimated the Irish humorous capacity, but I would never dare to underestimate an Irishmans intelligence. ;)

@fdt: Echelon spied on Europe (not only on Europe of course) from the start. And obviously there are interesting things here, and it does not look as if this is going to change soon. True is that the US spends much more money for research. But they are also very good in wasting money, it is astonishing what European technology can achieve and it how many fields we ware actually ahead of America...if we overcome our fragmented state at least a bit and would start o spend more for research (and possibly less for agricultural help) we might do even better. Only if we fall far back this spying will stop...until then its about business and economics.
I would say we shpuld start to spy a bit back. We have looked the other way long enough now.I hoped that You will hit the point for me... This technologies are developed by corps for govts for our money. Then corps and govts use'em... the average citizen on both sides of Atlantic profits sh*t of this development, his phone talks and net transmissions are always visible to rulers. When govt says that it wants to hide smth from other govt i always ask what guarantee I have that my govt doesn't want to hide smth from me... Govts have always more skeletons in a cabinet that they want to hide from their own citizens than those who they try to keep invisible for other countries... Our only hope is that greedy corps (that sell the technologies to the people) and nasty hackers prove that "You can't fool all the people all the time" (salute Bob).

[Kitsune]

fdt wrote:
I hoped that You will hit the point for me... This technologies are developed by corps for govts for our money. Then corps and govts use'em... the average citizen on both sides of Atlantic profits sh*t of this development, his phone talks and net transmissions are always visible to rulers. When govt says that it wants to hide smth from other govt i always ask what guarantee I have that my govt doesn't want to hide smth from me... Govts have always more skeletons in a cabinet that they want to hide from their own citizens than those who they try to keep invisible for other countries... Our only hope is that greedy corps (that sell the technologies to the people) and nasty hackers prove that "You can't fool all the people all the time" (salute Bob).

Well, what can one say? This is classic idealism. Basically what you saying is, that it would be better to stop all this illogical stuff and just to get along with each other...and of course it would be better. But its simply not hte way things work in this world. If the USA would stop using echoing or atleast SHARE it with their European allies (only the British are included) it would be nice. But they haven't done so before the Iraq war and they will not start with it now.
And if one side is spying you simply HAVE to play along, protect your knowledge, spy on theirs to even the odds, although it costs money. But it costs us more money if they get all our secrets, what we know and what we our economic strategies are. From an outside view it is just a waste, like all of this military stuff; dead money, helping noone to live a better life. If just all would cooperate...
And of course spies and secrecy do not go well together with our democratic systems, which should be transparent, you are right here too. But what can one do about it? Its simply not possible that only one side stops it.

[fdt]

Well, what can one say? This is classic idealism. Basically what you saying is, that it would be better to stop all this illogical stuff and just to get along with each other...and of course it would be better. But its simply not hte way things work in this world. If the USA would stop using echoing or atleast SHARE it with their European allies (only the British are included) it would be nice. But they haven't done so before the Iraq war and they will not start with it now.
And if one side is spying you simply HAVE to play along, protect your knowledge, spy on theirs to even the odds, although it costs money. But it costs us more money if they get all our secrets, what we know and what we our economic strategies are. From an outside view it is just a waste, like all of this military stuff; dead money, helping noone to live a better life. If just all would cooperate...
And of course spies and secrecy do not go well together with our democratic systems, which should be transparent, you are right here too. But what can one do about it? Its simply not possible that only one side stops it.Dear Kitsune... sides were during Cold War now it's everybody for itself... Know why Yanks and Brits co-operate on Echelon? It's not against the France or Germany it's against their own citizens. US and UK laws forbid their services to invigilate their own citizens... so when US govt wants to know smth about his citizen,a intelligence officer fills relevant application and sends it to Brits. They collect everything on the US citizen with use of their Canadian stations and pass it to Yanks... and vice versa. Everything is OK with law, infos collected... :lol: It's not a simple contradiction EU vs US as some try to picture this. Ever wondered who are French spying with use of their Mutzig located (Bas-Rhin/Lower Rhine) station? Huh? :lol:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/0,39020645,2079875,00.htm

Frenchelon - France has nothing to envy in Echelon

Jerome Thorel, ZDNet France
ZDNet UK
June 30, 2000, 09:30 BST

France has its very own Echelon, located within the Paris region and equipped with semantic analysis engines that sort out the information. By Jerome Thorel, Editor of ZDNet News, France

"The French have nothing to envy the Americans for. France has its very own Echelon, located within the Paris region and equipped with semantic analysis engines that sort out the information".

This is what a DST (French equivalent of MI6) officer told journalists in 1998 following the first denunciation of Echelon by the European Parliament. Ironically, it was the French who complained most bitterly about Echelon's covert activities and indeed, several companies and individuals are now persuing a legal case against America's National Security Agency (NSA).

That France endowed itself with such capabilities, however, is no surprise. The French weekly magazine, Le Point, dubbed France's equivalent electronic surveillance network 'Frenchelon'. According to reports, the site has been developed over the years by two bodies from the French Ministry of Defence: on the one hand the DGSE -- a broad term for the secret services -- and on the other the DRM (Direction du Renseignement Militaire) which manages military information.

The first detailed list of French bases was published by Le Monde in February. The bases are apparently linked to the DGSE (ex-GCR, Groupement des Contrôles Radioélectriques or grouping of radio-electric controls).

According to Le Monde: "These means of interception, by satellite or other, are deployed in Alluets-Feucherolles (Yvelines), Agde (Hérault), Domme (Dordogne), Mutzig (Bas-Rhin/Lower Rhine) and Solenzara (Southern Corsica), Saint-Barthélemy (in the West-Indies), Reunion Island, Djibouti and Mayotte (Indian Ocean)."

In a confidential letter dated 16th March 2000, Le Monde du Renseignement counted over a dozen bases and added to the existing list the plateau d'Albion (Alps of Haute-Provence), a commune of the Oriental Pyrenees (Saint-Laurent de la Salanque) and the Filley barracks in Nice. Furthermore, an agreement with the United Arab Emirates authorised the installation of surveillance stations in that region of the Gulf.

Another base mentioned by Jean Guisnel (author of the investigation published by Le Point last year): is "secretly planted on the space station Kourou [with the help of the German services], specially made available to oversee American and South American satellite communications/transmissions."

Kourou is also quoted as one of the bases "linked and/or associated" with Echelon.

Generally speaking, France is taking adantage of its overseas provinces and ex-colonies to widen its listening capabilities to a global scale: New Caledonia for the Pacific and Asia areas, the Emirats, Djibouti and Reunion Island for Africa and the Middle East, West-Indies and Kourou for the American continent.

In addition to the ground-bases, we are able to reconstitute France's entire known arsenal:

Satellites Helios-1A and 1B

Issued from the space observation programme Helios IS controled by the DRM.

Officially: Helios-1A (launched in August 1995) takes high-definition photos focused on protecting France against conflicts. But in June 1998, Le Point revealed that a stowaway, an "interception cartridge known as Euracom" took its place at Helios' side. Manufacturered by Dassault Systèmes (version confirmed by an official report filed by the Assembly in October 1998), the cartridge is thought to intercept Inmarsat and Intelsat signals.

Air: The same sources also suggest that surveillance stations are being airlifted by the "electronic information planes, Gabriel and Sarigue".

Sea: Current marine units are believed to be due for a replacement in 2001 by the Bougainville, a ship equipped for electromagnetic research.

Although Frenchelon seems efficient at spying on radio-electric or satellite signals, the real superiority of Echelon lies in its capacity to intercept massive amounts of Internet and telephone traffic. The 120 Echelon satellites revealed by Duncan Campbell in his report to the European Parliament are able to capture the terrestrial relays of European public telephones as well as the ten main Internet exchange points that run through the United States, a practically mandatory relay for intra-European exchanges. On the other hand, it would be difficult to imagine the French services unable to intercept IP traffic conveyed via the points of exchange of the Hexagone.

The official line on what is now termed 'Frenchelon' is that it exists as a means of defence, to protect France against conflicts, terrorism and the proliferation of nuclear arms. However, France's surveillance operations are, as with Echelon, prime suspects of economic espionage, engaging in what has become a fiercly contested International sport, which aims to retain or gain market shares.

[Kitsune]

@fdt: :D

You are absolutely right, the French have spied on (for example) Germany quite a lot. Especially one of these incidents costed Germany billions...
But it is the enormous scale of echelon that makes them nowadays more inclined to cooperation. Germany is just now building the SAR Lupe system which consists of Radar satellites who can scan the ground with the resolution of 50cm. Agreement is now that the French Helios and the German SAR Lupe systems will share information, to form the basis of an European satellite recon system.
As far as listening posts are concerned...Germany is not entirely innocent either, the BND for example operates a listening post in China near the Russian border to spy on...well thats a secret. ;)

As for your concern that such systems would be used to spy on their own citizens...well that is certainly a point. But a closer European cooperation makes sense nontheless, and it is going to happen.

[Shadow]

Kitsune you are hitting the nail right on its ****ing head!:D
Europes rock in inventnig things. America rocks in copying forign technology.;)

[OldRecon]

As mentioned photon encrypted messages can't (at present) be eavesdropped without disturbing the spinn pattern of the photons of a message.
Thus eavsdropping makes the message unreadable both for eavesdropper and destined receiver.
Though wouldn't surprise me if there's some element in string theory that makes it possible to work around the problem with predicting a photonic message stream without disturbing the spinn of the subatomic particles of the message.

Though my knowledge of physics rather rudimentary to say the least.

[fdt]

Well I'm not that idealistic as it may look at first glance... ;) I'm simply pessimistic (pessimist = relatively well informed optimist) on politicians... :bash:

[Anastasius Focht]

I think its impossible to eavesdrop that key messages, but it is still possible to get those Codes before and after sending.....

[fdt]

.... the French have spied on (for example) Germany quite a lot. Especially one of these incidents costed Germany billions...
Which particular case did You mean here? Any details? This must have been commented on German media... I suppose.

[Midav]

Kitsune--

What I meant, lived down the road from ESOC in Darmstadt, Germay.

Talked to plenty of people from the EU developing tech, not just Germans.

TN is every bit as advanced, and hey, as you said, you have the oracle right in front of you. :D

http://www.google.com/

[weedman]

To all the peole talking about "cracking this codec": Ever tried to hijack a photon? :roll:

[budanski]

Kitsune:

The theory is that Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle can be used to insure that no one intercepts your data. After all, per Heisenberg, you can know either the position or the momentum of the charge, but never can you know both simultaneously.

So using this theory, Quantum cryptologists encode data either on the position or on the momentum of the charge, and whoever first reads this data (like a hacker tapping a line) will upset the quantum system for any subsequent readers (such as the true intended receiver), thus allowing either the detection of the hacker or the data to go through.

And that all sounds great and wonderful, until you realize that an eavesdropper can simply recreate whatever data is desired and retransmit the new charge, with the receiver now not being any wiser to the interception.

In other words, Quantum Cryptology by its very nature is **never** secure from a determined hacker, even though on the surface it appears as though Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle would secure it.

The hacker can simply recreate whatever data that she intercepted, and the receiver can't discern is the data is original or recreated.


Kitsune you are hitting the nail right on its f*** head!:D
Europes rock in inventnig things. America rocks in copying forign technology.;)

So true. :roll:

That explains your top scientist to not only flee the E.U. (http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/printout/0,13155,901040119-574849,00.html), but also flee Germany (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1450_A_1107052_1_A,00.html) for a copy infringement job in the states? C'mon, even the E.U. acknowledges this (http://www.euobserver.com/index.phtml?sid=9&aid=12183).

For a bunch of pirates, why does the U.S. hold this spot (http://www.aneki.com/nobel.html)?

While the E.U. catches up with little projects ie: Galileo, A400, Martian Landrovers while missing out on the whole computer revolution, keep ranting...

[Shadow]

:P
I knew you won't like that statement!;)
Cruise Missile = V2
Stealth Bomber = Horten HO XXX
...
;)

[ibstolidude]

:P
I knew you won't like that statement!;)
Cruise Missile = V2
Stealth Bomber = Horten HO XXX
...
;)
I hate the Euro US debate - but to pretend that the US cruise missile aresenal is a V2 based system is absolute ignorance. - unless you mean both had a propellant and a body - and if that is the case of your arguement it is stole off the ancient chinese.

[He219]

:P
I knew you won't like that statement!;)
Cruise Missile = V2
Ahm, V2 = Ballistic Missile / Fi-103 (Buzz Bomb) = Cruise Missile
Stealth Bomber = Horten HO XXX
Stealth Fighter = Ho IX (Go 229)
...
;)

Nice try, Shadow!
:lol:

[ronin2172]

:P
I knew you won't like that statement!;)
Cruise Missile = V2
Stealth Bomber = Horten HO XXX
...
;)

Jackass....the v2 is a ballistic missle.....the v1 was a cruise missle...if u r gonna talk s*** at least get your facts right
damn u beat me he219!

[He219]

Shadow's forte lies with designing his Spud Guns (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13271&highlight=german) ...

;)

[Shadow]

Getting on somebodys nerves can be great fun!:D
;) :hug:

[Kitsune]

Budanski is actually quite right with his statement. This is Germanys (and Europes) biggest problem.
The US is not in the lead because Americans are cleverer than Europeans (I have to say quite the opposite, American education levels are lower, the average Americans knowledge is...in some cases...abysmal low. There are many exceptions, but the difference is there. Sry if someone feels offended here), but because America is still the place where you get the big fundings and where you can get the rewards for your idea. Without this European and Asian "brain influx", the US would produce significantly less Nobelprizes.

The good news for budanski is, that this is still happening: many brilliant scientist leave Europe and go to America to spend their most productive years there. The bad news is: this tendency ia not as strong as it was once. The problem is known, and we are doing something against it. Things like these can not be changed overnight however.

In the end it could be that the US has to contemplate a serious reform for their rotten highschool system to produce the brilliant students for their excellent un iversities themselves. ;)

[Angelino]

IIRC, the guys who came up with Quantum Cryptography (Charles Bennett and Gilles Brassard) are both American and both work for a good ol' American corporation (Can't get more American than IBM!)

@budanski -- Quantum cryptography can be used to agree on a secure key and to determine if someone is tapping the line. A cracker can get in and attempt to reproduce the key, but if a long key is used, the odds are very low as to whether they can reproduce it exactly without being found out. A very good explanation of the process was detailed in Simon Singh's "The Code Book" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0385495315/qid=1084904380/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-0737375-1206300?v=glance&s=books

[He219]

Budanski is actually quite right with his statement. This is Germanys (and Europes) biggest problem.
The US is not in the lead because Americans are cleverer than Europeans (I have to say quite the opposite, American education levels are lower, the average Americans knowledge is...in some cases...abysmal low. There are many exceptions, but the difference is there. Sry if someone feels offended here), but because America is still the place where you get the big fundings and where you can get the rewards for your idea. Without this European and Asian "brain influx", the US would produce significantly less Nobelprizes.

The good news for budanski is, that this is still happening: many brilliant scientist leave Europe and go to America to spend their most productive years there. The bad news is: this tendency ia not as strong as it was once. The problem is known, and we are doing something against it. Things like these can not be changed overnight however.

In the end it could be that the US has to contemplate a serious reform for their rotten highschool system to produce the brilliant students for their excellent un iversities themselves. ;)

The US may not have a Socialized Education system like in Germany, yet our diverse cultural ingenuity produces something that 'Fachidioten' can even begin to comprehend ..
;)

[Shadow]

Oh and I build Potatocanons no Spudguns, that's a difference!:P
Spudgun's use a compressed air tank, Potatocanons use the exploding gas. And that's not the only thing i'm building, ever seen some of my Sodium,styroporpowder,rust powered rockets?

[He219]

Please, enlighten us with your evil genious, Shadow!

p-)

[Kitsune]

@He219:

Believe me, the US has more than its share of Fachidioten. That is exatly the problem. Its actually quite typical for an American to be knowledgable only in his field of expertise. Your High Shool system, as I said.

But you can leave that as it is...we can live with it. ;)

[He219]

Alleskönner statt Fachidiot (http://zeus.zeit.de/text/2004/17/C-Schl_9fsselkompetenzen2)

;)

[Kitsune]

Yeah, and? That is the title of an article that comments on the reforming some of the German universities are undertaking. It makes no comparisions to the USA.
For example it says, that university students should aquire the ability "to express themselves well in 2 languages".
He219...the average Americans ability to express himself well in zero foreign languages is legendary all over the world. (In fact it was an American who joked, that you could discern the American users from the foreigners on any Internet forum, instantly: they would be those with the bad english! Again, thats not coming from me).
So believe that average Americans are especially broadly educated if you like. But its not true.

[Anastasius Focht]

There is also another Joke about that:

How do you call a person who speaks many different Languages? Multilingual.

How do you call a person who just speaks one Language? American.

;)

[budanski]

Budanski is actually quite right with his statement. This is Germanys (and Europes) biggest problem.
The US is not in the lead because Americans are cleverer than Europeans (I have to say quite the opposite, American education levels are lower, the average Americans knowledge is...in some cases...abysmal low. There are many exceptions, but the difference is there. Sry if someone feels offended here), but because America is still the place where you get the big fundings and where you can get the rewards for your idea. Without this European and Asian "brain influx", the US would produce significantly less Nobelprizes.

The good news for budanski is, that this is still happening: many brilliant scientist leave Europe and go to America to spend their most productive years there. The bad news is: this tendency ia not as strong as it was once. The problem is known, and we are doing something against it. Things like these can not be changed overnight however.

In the end it could be that the US has to contemplate a serious reform for their rotten highschool system to produce the brilliant students for their excellent un iversities themselves. ;)

Sadly enough, the U.S. educational system is hindered by socialistisc rule where everyone is supposely equal and no one is better than the other. The politicians here think by dumping money into the school system, things will all be dandy. Michael Barone from U.S. News (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/archive/030512/20030512040259_brief.php) wrote this fascinating article awhile back.


A tale of two nations

By Michael Barone


Who has not been impressed by the American military personnel we have been seeing over these past two months? Calm, terse, determined, brave, confident--above all, competent, able to vanquish the enemy and spare the innocent with astonishingly low casualties. And yet a few years ago most of these young men and women were typical American 18-year-olds, most of whom don't seem competent at much of anything.

One of the peculiar features of our country is that we produce incompetent 18-year-olds and remarkably competent 30-year-olds. Americans at 18 typically score lower on standardized tests than 18-year-olds from other advanced countries. Watch them on their first few days working at McDonald's or behind the counter in chain drugstores, and it's obvious that they don't really know how to make change or keep the line moving. But by the time Americans are 30, they are the most competent people in the world. They produce a stronger and more vibrant private-sector economy; they produce scientific and technical advances that lead the world; they provide the world's best medical care; they create the strongest and most agile military the world has ever seen. And it's not just a few meritocrats at the top: American talent runs wide and deep.

Why? Because from the age of 6 to 18, our kids live mostly in what I call Soft America--the part of our society where there is little competition and accountability. In contrast, most Americans in the 12 years between ages 18 and 30 live mostly in Hard America--the part of American life subject to competition and accountability; the military trains under live fire. Soft America seeks to instill self-esteem. Hard America plays for keeps.

Fighting back. Soft America for a long time has been running most of our schools. Since early in the 20th century, as Diane Ravitch has shown in Left Back, educators have had a mistrust of testing and competition and a yearning to protect children from their rigors. Educators ban tag and dodge ball, because some kids lose. Teacher unions seek tenure, higher pay, and lower accountability. Parents' expectations are often low: Mom and Dad, busy working in Hard America, don't want to notice that their kids are not learning much. There are exceptions of course: Many schools do a good job despite all this. But for most kids who are not on the track to the relatively few select colleges, junior high and high school are something like the Soviet system: They pretend to teach, and we pretend to learn.

Then at 18, kids encounter Hard America--competitive colleges and universities and community colleges, competitive private-sector employers, training institutions from McDonald's to the military. Some fall behind and don't get much of anywhere. Others seek out enclaves of Soft America--soft corners in the civil service or corporate bureaucracies. But most figure out pretty quickly that how they do depends on what they produce. They develop skills that astonish those who knew them at 18. That is what we have been seeing in the American military forces in Iraq.

Soft America took over much of society because in the early and middle 20th century, America seemed to many people to be too Hard. Not many kids made it up the educational and job ladders. Much work was hard labor, and in the 1930s, jobs were scarce and charity inadequate. Educators wanted to make schools Soft, and New Dealers wanted to shield people from the marketplace with strong unions and Social Security. By the 1970s Soft America was trying to Soften Hard America with guaranteed incomes, job tenure, and comparable worth (bureaucrats, not markets, setting salaries).

In the 1980s and 1990s Hard America fought back. Surging private-sector growth brushed aside attempts to Soften the Hard economy. The military, hobbled by public contempt after Vietnam, built a voluntary force in which people could gain benefits and honor by performing. Politicians started passing laws to make the people who run the schools accountable for results. A sensible society wants to keep some part of itself Soft: We don't want to subject kindergartners to the rigors of the Marine Corps or to leave old people helpless and uncared for. But a sensible society also understands--and the military has been driving home the lesson--that Soft America lives off the productivity, creativity, and competence of Hard America. And that we have the luxury of keeping part of our society Soft only if we keep most of it Hard.


For example it says, that university students should aquire the ability "to express themselves well in 2 languages".
What would be the advantage for an American to learn a second language? Not to sound arrogant, but most businesses, if done international is done in English. Its seems more critical for a german to learn english if he is to be competative or to attend a few of the world's top universities. Just because you know a second language doesnt make you any smarter. Take me for example. I speak two fluent languages yet I'm still the forum's right-wing kook. If that were a measurement, most immigrants who fled here to the states speak more than just english.

[He219]

Yeah, and? That is the title of an article that comments on the reforming some of the German universities are undertaking. It makes no comparisions to the USA.
No comparisons? ;)

Im Prinzip folgen alle diese Übungen im Elementarwissen dem amerikanischen Beispiel – freilich mit dem Unterschied, dass die Erstsemester dort nur zehn und nicht zwölf oder dreizehn Schuljahre hinter sich haben.
General Studies, neuartigen Bachelor- und Master-Studiengängen, Teamgeist, Dieser Begriff in der Spannbreite von der Powerpoint-Präsentation bis zur Körpersprache ... Je mehr die Wissenschaften und Studienangebote sich verästeln, desto nötiger sind General Studies, um einen klaren, alltagstauglichen Kopf zu gewinnen.

As for languages:


..nur einer von zehn kann sich außer im Englischen noch in einer weiteren Fremdsprache ausdrücken.

Indeed, the article was about 'Reform'.
p-)

[Red]

Code's are made to be broken

[Falco]

Code's are made to be broken

Just like rules p-)

[Anastasius Focht]

Code's are made to be broken

Just like rules p-)

But you simply cant break the rules of physics..... ;)

[henksmoeder]

Budanski is actually quite right with his statement. This is Germanys (and Europes) biggest problem.
The US is not in the lead because Americans are cleverer than Europeans (I have to say quite the opposite, American education levels are lower, the average Americans knowledge is...in some cases...abysmal low. There are many exceptions, but the difference is there. Sry if someone feels offended here), but because America is still the place where you get the big fundings and where you can get the rewards for your idea. Without this European and Asian "brain influx", the US would produce significantly less Nobelprizes.

The good news for budanski is, that this is still happening: many brilliant scientist leave Europe and go to America to spend their most productive years there. The bad news is: this tendency ia not as strong as it was once. The problem is known, and we are doing something against it. Things like these can not be changed overnight however.

In the end it could be that the US has to contemplate a serious reform for their rotten highschool system to produce the brilliant students for their excellent un iversities themselves. ;)

Sadly enough, the U.S. educational system is hindered by socialistisc rule where everyone is supposely equal and no one is better than the other. The politicians here think by dumping money into the school system, things will all be dandy. Michael Barone from U.S. News (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/archive/030512/20030512040259_brief.php) wrote this fascinating article awhile back.


A tale of two nations

By Michael Barone


Who has not been impressed by the American military personnel we have been seeing over these past two months? Calm, terse, determined, brave, confident--above all, competent, able to vanquish the enemy and spare the innocent with astonishingly low casualties. And yet a few years ago most of these young men and women were typical American 18-year-olds, most of whom don't seem competent at much of anything.

One of the peculiar features of our country is that we produce incompetent 18-year-olds and remarkably competent 30-year-olds. Americans at 18 typically score lower on standardized tests than 18-year-olds from other advanced countries. Watch them on their first few days working at McDonald's or behind the counter in chain drugstores, and it's obvious that they don't really know how to make change or keep the line moving. But by the time Americans are 30, they are the most competent people in the world. They produce a stronger and more vibrant private-sector economy; they produce scientific and technical advances that lead the world; they provide the world's best medical care; they create the strongest and most agile military the world has ever seen. And it's not just a few meritocrats at the top: American talent runs wide and deep.

Why? Because from the age of 6 to 18, our kids live mostly in what I call Soft America--the part of our society where there is little competition and accountability. In contrast, most Americans in the 12 years between ages 18 and 30 live mostly in Hard America--the part of American life subject to competition and accountability; the military trains under live fire. Soft America seeks to instill self-esteem. Hard America plays for keeps.

Fighting back. Soft America for a long time has been running most of our schools. Since early in the 20th century, as Diane Ravitch has shown in Left Back, educators have had a mistrust of testing and competition and a yearning to protect children from their rigors. Educators ban tag and dodge ball, because some kids lose. Teacher unions seek tenure, higher pay, and lower accountability. Parents' expectations are often low: Mom and Dad, busy working in Hard America, don't want to notice that their kids are not learning much. There are exceptions of course: Many schools do a good job despite all this. But for most kids who are not on the track to the relatively few select colleges, junior high and high school are something like the Soviet system: They pretend to teach, and we pretend to learn.

Then at 18, kids encounter Hard America--competitive colleges and universities and community colleges, competitive private-sector employers, training institutions from McDonald's to the military. Some fall behind and don't get much of anywhere. Others seek out enclaves of Soft America--soft corners in the civil service or corporate bureaucracies. But most figure out pretty quickly that how they do depends on what they produce. They develop skills that astonish those who knew them at 18. That is what we have been seeing in the American military forces in Iraq.

Soft America took over much of society because in the early and middle 20th century, America seemed to many people to be too Hard. Not many kids made it up the educational and job ladders. Much work was hard labor, and in the 1930s, jobs were scarce and charity inadequate. Educators wanted to make schools Soft, and New Dealers wanted to shield people from the marketplace with strong unions and Social Security. By the 1970s Soft America was trying to Soften Hard America with guaranteed incomes, job tenure, and comparable worth (bureaucrats, not markets, setting salaries).

In the 1980s and 1990s Hard America fought back. Surging private-sector growth brushed aside attempts to Soften the Hard economy. The military, hobbled by public contempt after Vietnam, built a voluntary force in which people could gain benefits and honor by performing. Politicians started passing laws to make the people who run the schools accountable for results. A sensible society wants to keep some part of itself Soft: We don't want to subject kindergartners to the rigors of the Marine Corps or to leave old people helpless and uncared for. But a sensible society also understands--and the military has been driving home the lesson--that Soft America lives off the productivity, creativity, and competence of Hard America. And that we have the luxury of keeping part of our society Soft only if we keep most of it Hard.


For example it says, that university students should aquire the ability "to express themselves well in 2 languages".
What would be the advantage for an American to learn a second language? Not to sound arrogant, but most businesses, if done international is done in English. Its seems more critical for a german to learn english if he is to be competative or to attend a few of the world's top universities. Just because you know a second language doesnt make you any smarter. Take me for example. I speak two fluent languages yet I'm still the forum's right-wing kook. If that were a measurement, most immigrants who fled here to the states speak more than just english.

The socialistic rule isn't a hinder in Europe. We for all really do have some social-democratic imputs in our school system, everyone is equal. Still our level of education is VERY high (although not talking about holland, since it is regressing very fast(though it's still high)). Hoorah for equal opportunities. It gives minorities and the such the opportunity to adapt and to integrate.

Speaking several languages doesn't make you especialy smarter, but it helps you to earn the others respect. Take France for example. If you start to talk english to a french person, most of the times they will react rather unfriendly. IF you start to talk french, doesn't matter if you suck at it, they will help you with a understanding smile. In europe and a LOT of other countries, speaking only one language is mostly considered as being a chauvinist, who's not respecting others cultures and not even trying to adapt.

[Falco]

Code's are made to be broken

Just like rules p-)

But you simply cant break the rules of physics..... ;)

We don't know that until they are actually broken, it's called evolution. p-)

[Mark Sman]

Go ahead. Make the "unbreakable code."

Don't be suprised when the intercepts guys simply crack the machines at either end and still get into the secret stash of badger **** this whiz-bang photonic miracle will be designed to protect.

[Red]

Code's are made to be broken

Just like rules p-)

But you simply cant break the rules of physics..... ;)
Neo did. :D

[Red]

What Encryption standard do the Eu nations use?I know the US public uses AES but i don't know what standard the Government uses?But to be serious it will only take a while before such codes will be broken.That was what was said about DES encryption but now that standard is breakable.

[budanski]

The socialistic rule isn't a hinder in Europe. We for all really do have some social-democratic imputs in our school system, everyone is equal. Still our level of education is VERY high (although not talking about holland, since it is regressing very fast(though it's still high)). Hoorah for equal opportunities. It gives minorities and the such the opportunity to adapt and to integrate.

Speaking several languages doesn't make you especialy smarter, but it helps you to earn the others respect. Take France for example. If you start to talk english to a french person, most of the times they will react rather unfriendly. IF you start to talk french, doesn't matter if you suck at it, they will help you with a understanding smile. In europe and a LOT of other countries, speaking only one language is mostly considered as being a chauvinist, who's not respecting others cultures and not even trying to adapt.
As noted in my earlier posts, the same socialistic system are driving your top scientists abroad. The socialist government takes most of your earnings to support others who refuse to work (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3685483.stm) and the same socialist government meddles endlessly so that you can't do your best work in your field. Any surpise why your economy have been stagnant for the last three years? (http://www.faz.com/IN/INtemplates/eFAZ/docmain.asp?rub={B1311FCE-FBFB-11D2-B228-00105A9CAF88}&doc={1D3382AD-647E-47F0-9A5F-894490AB7777}) It's a mess and I'm surprised they don't all leave. Even when Schroder is out, his replacement will do nothing to change any of this.

The problem is priorities. Eurocrats want to use science and research to create products and use the profit to continue funding their welfare state. Americans use science and research to create products that grow private enterprise. In the mid-60's, researchers at the University of Florida created a sports drink and dubbed it "Gatorade"- in honor of the school mascot and Professor Cade. Now Gatorade is a major product line with many jobs attached to it. Furthermore, Gatorade sales generate research dollars for UF and many other places. In today's Europe, none of that would have happened. The government would try to sell the product in an effort to generate funds for its welfare programs. The researchers who created it would not share in the profits and royalties. And they wonder why they have a brain drain.

Note that Europeans leave for the US in great numbers, conversely, Americans do not leave the US to live in Europe and work, other than the rich who buy vacation homes:)

[budanski]

Go ahead. Make the "unbreakable code."

Don't be suprised when the intercepts guys simply crack the machines at either end and still get into the secret stash of badger **** this whiz-bang photonic miracle will be designed to protect.

Who would have thought Silly String would be crucial in detecting IEDs...


Night Lights and Silly String
Strategypage (http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/howtomakewar/default.asp?target=HTPROC.HTM)

May 17, 2004: In Iraq, American troops have established their own Research & Development and procurement system. It’s informal, and arises from curiosity, need and the ability to quickly share information via the Internet, and use the web to order interesting new stuff as well.*

Two recent examples are battery powered LED headband flashlights and Silly String. LED (Light Emitting Diodes) have been around for decades, but in the past few years, LED lighting elements have become powerful enough to replace light bulbs in flashlights. The advantage of LEDs is that they draw less power, giving you 20-100 hours of use on two or three AA or AAA batteries (and depending on how many LEDs are used.) In Iraq, where new batteries are sometimes hard to get, the electrical power supply sometimes fails, and troops often have to operate under blackout conditions, LED lights solve many problems. Headband LED flashlights provide enough light to read by, but not so much that hostile gunmen will spot you. You can also get red LED elements, which is used for true blackout conditions. While the military has adopted some LED products, the troops have bought a lot more with their own money.

OK, LEDs make sense, but Silly String? This is a kids toy, a “gun” with a canister of plastic foam attached. Pull the trigger, and a string of plastic goes flying for about 12 feet. Harmless, kind of silly. But American marines found that Silly String was an excellent tool to search for trip wires when removing ****y traps or roadside bombs. Officers were so impressed that they got the government to pay for the supplies of Silly String. The procurement people back in the United States were surprised at first, until the use of Silly String was explained.*

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Americans do not leave the US to live in Europe and work, other than the rich who buy vacation homes:)
There may not be a large amount of Americans leaving the US to work in Europe but the numbers of US persons who seek positions in banking, insurance and financial houses in the UK are growing every year.
Do they scent fresh opportunities maybe.

[budanski]

There may not be a large amount of Americans leaving the US to work in Europe but the numbers of US persons who seek positions in banking, insurance and financial houses in the UK are growing every year.
Do they scent fresh opportunities maybe.

Considering the industry, theres some big players there. (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/83257/1/.html)

[kinghk]

What Encryption standard do the Eu nations use?I know the US public uses AES but i don't know what standard the Government uses?




US public basically uses (3)DES, AES (Advanced Encryption Standard) was finally implemented in 2001, and it takes time before new standards are being used. AES uses the Rijndael algorithm, devoloped by two guys from Belgium. AES is indeed the standard for the future, but 3DES will be supported for a long time.




That was what was said about DES encryption but now that standard is breakable.

Not really breakable. There is no known mathematical vulnerabilities in DES, the problem with DES is simply that the 56 bit code is to easy to brute-force. DES was made in 1977, not that odd that it is insecure now, considering how mach faster todays computers are.


But to be serious it will only take a while before such codes will be broken.

A while? DES lasted from about 20 years, before the algorithm was considered insecure. DES is still a good algorithm, unless your trying to hide your secrets from governmental agencies and such, to break DES you'll still need huge amount of computer power.

[Kitsune]

@budanski

Germany has suffered from "brain drain" since about 70 years. Since the early 30ties when scientists left Germany becuase of the Nazis, the scientists the US army took with them in 1945, the 50ties in which Germany was rebuilding and scientists left for the new shore of greater promises...

Nonetheless Germany is today at a top postion in nearly every technological field, even leading in some , perhaps in not as many as the US but in more than people like you think.
Don't believe it? Have I to remind you that America is buying far mor high technological products from Germany than the other way round?
That alone is testimony to the ingenuity of the German people, the efficency of our education system and our economy. Despite the brain drain we did this.


Remember: after WWII, Europe was destroyed. Before WWII, Germany, not the US produced the most scientific Nobelprizes in the world. Even in the 50ties the German scientist was something of a cliche in the US. The height of US scientific dominance were perhaps the late sixties...since then it is diminishing, year by year. The amount of nobelprizes you receive may have increased because the overall number has increased, the amount of scientific paper the US produce may have increased because the total number has increased...but the relative piece of the scientific cake the US holds is diminishing, not increasing.

It is true, the brain drain ist still there. It shows that our system is not perfect. It shows that we still can learn some things. But here is the difference: We are willing to learn from others. America is not. Because America is the greatest nation on earth.
We are reforming right now. And it looks right now as if the brain drain will diminish to a dribble over the next two decades. We have thrived despite of it. Can you?

Also we attracting more and more foreign students. Were only Germans sat in the teaching rooms one sees Asians and South Americans, Australians and Turks today. Who knows? Tomorrow you may find even Americans there.


But by the time Americans are 30, they are the most competent people in the world. They produce a stronger and more vibrant private-sector economy; they produce scientific and technical advances that lead the world; they provide the world's best medical care; they create the strongest and most agile military the world has ever seen.
This is the typical trash you are always telling budanski. The most competent people in the world?
With everyone I asked in the military (without exceptions) the British left a much deeper impression than the Americans, despite the superinflated US defense spendings. (The USA IS a welfare state, budanski. But for the welfare of its industrial-military companies, not for the American people).
On American universities the brilliant foreign student has become a cliche, your economy has the biggest trading deficit the world has ever seen (explain that budanski...how can that be if you are that damn good...that itches doesn't it? The one thing that simply does not fit into your worldview of total American superiority, a nation that is, according to your view, about to see the rest of the planet vanish in the rear view mirror...but why choose so many Americans to buy foreign goods...why do not so many foreigners buy American?)


America has become fat. You are living on foreign investments, your research labs rely on foreign brain matter. Only you sheer size has saved you. Until so far.
You are vulnerable and dependent. But you have failed to realize how much. Instead you have grown cocky. You think you can do without anyone else.
And that is the difference. European nations haven't.

All I can say, from my experience (a lot) with Americans: There is no genetic superiority there. America has created an enviroment which is good for enterprise. Europeans can and do thrive in this enviroment, at least as good as Americans. We have to learn to make Europe such an enviroment. And we are willing to learn.
Otherwise there is nothing fundamental, in which America is superior. Not intelligence, not education, not virtue, not morals.
On the contrary: we can learn how not to do it. Americans are not well educated or informed. Others, who are are dangerously narrowminded. Some are incredibly rich. But many others are dangerously poor, people who never get a chance in life, around 40 million who do not get "the best health care the world can provide"...they do not get any. Criminal statistics are dangerously high...in all these things Europe already does better.
You do not want to learn from us? Nothing we Euroweenies can teach Great America? Well, at present you can afford this attitude.
We will see wether you still can in 10 years.

[sethen]

Quantum mechanics is the science and theory that explains an obscure, bizzare part of the universe. The extremely small builiding bolcks of matter called quearks. Riddle me this, can two things be in one place or can one thing be in two places? Any type of electronic intelligence systems like these bring in two many factors. I simply beleive any bizarre combinations of events could compromise these thing. Bad idea. Has anyone actually read what the scientist say about this stuff???? Parralel universes, multiple selfes, multiple universes..etc...etc!!!!! Whoah........... :cantbeli:...schrodingers cat...singularity points...big bang...expanding universe...contracting universe..."big crunch"..

[Angelino]

Not really breakable. There is no known mathematical vulnerabilities in DES, the problem with DES is simply that the 56 bit code is to easy to brute-force. DES was made in 1977, not that odd that it is insecure now, considering how mach faster todays computers are.


But to be serious it will only take a while before such codes will be broken.

A while? DES lasted from about 20 years, before the algorithm was considered insecure. DES is still a good algorithm, unless your trying to hide your secrets from governmental agencies and such, to break DES you'll still need huge amount of computer power.

The original DES spec called for a 128 bit key, but the NSA asked IBM to shorten the key length to 56 bits before adopting the standard. There has always been a rumor that this was done because the key would still be strong enough to resist ordinary mortals efforts in the 70s, but not strong enough for the NSA. Also, the NSA had knowledge of differential cryptanalysis techniques back in the 70s, though the general public only knew of this technique when it was rediscovered publicly in the 90s. Incidentally, the Electronic Frontier Foundation built their own crypto cracking computer a few years ago for $250,000 and managed to crack DES in like a day. IIRC someone predicted fairly recently that if chips are ordered in bulk, anyone willing to shell out around 5 million bucks can build a much faster DES cracker that will do the job in a few minutes.

[budanski]

Kitsune:

Typical euroweenie. Always quick to give advice while not taking its own medicine and blind to what is the obvious. Let me keep this simple:

First. Yes, the U.S. has benefitted from foreigners, the whole country is founded by them. Now youre blaming the U.S. of pillaging europes brightest minds after WW2? Maybe it would have been wise to have left Poland alone. How convenient to see you take credit for some you were aiming to exterminate in the first place.

Second. Our poor, as you mentioned happens to be obese, owns homes with larger living space than your average homes in europe, cars, tv, microwave ovens etc. (http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm) With healthcare you get what you pay for. People do not want to wait months for medical care are going to pay out of pocket to have it done privately. The US system may be expensive (for many reasons), but you can get whatever treatment you want when you want it - you just have to pay for it like and other good or service. Its not like hospitals here refuse treatment to those who dont have money anyways, just ask our illegal immigrants. Take France for example, with the title of best healthcare, how is it that it managed to let 10,000 elderly die from a heat wave and go bankrupt (http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1219704,00.html)? Free Healthcare = Banruptcy, who would have figured. Here, crime rates continue to fall (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/10/national/printable543314.shtml). While they rise in Germany (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=7174).

Third. Don't like the article? take it up with the writer. The trash you throw about deficits is no different. You've brought up this topic quite a few times with me responding and nothing else from you. Explain this to me. The U.S. has managed to get itself out of an inherited recession, conducted two wars, and given the deficit as a proportion of total economic output at 4.5% that seems on average (Germany's is what? around 4%? Not to mention your increasing budget deficit which you and France seem to think you're above EU law with (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=ab2iKMML9Ss8&refer=germany) while punishing other member who surpasses the 3.0 mark. How arrogant), with such a "horrendous" deficit, how is it that we've managed to keep our unemployment lower than what it was under Carter's administration (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=668&u=/ap/20040507/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy&printer=1) while Germany's double digit numbers are going up? (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_772191,00.html)

Whats new kitsune? Everything is dandy in Euro-land. God forbid we let unemployment and a staggering economy go unchecked. We sure don't need the second coming of Hilter to turn things around do we? ;)

Here are what some of the economists are saying. You being armchair economist and all, I'm sure your analysis will prove these experts wrong. :roll:

Debtor Nation, Without the Rhetoric
When it comes to trade deficits, choose fact over myth.

National Review Online (http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_nugent/mosler_nugent200402240846.asp)

In the world of economic analysis, fundamental truths are sometimes lost to rhetoric. For example, it is fact — not theory — that government budget deficits add exactly that amount to the savings of financial assets that the rest of us hold. Yet politicians and economists have attacked the federal budget deficit on the premise that it reduces savings. Few media moguls pick up on the fact that expansive fiscal policy (the budget deficit) has been directly responsible for the recent increases in non-government savings, just as they overlooked the fact that the Clinton surpluses reduced our savings.

Along with errantly berating budget deficits as draining our savings, the media make an equally illogical error regarding the trade deficit. Within the Beltway, a trade deficit means that U.S. consumption is at the mercy of foreign lenders, and the U.S. Treasury is beholden to foreign owners of its securities. The image is that of the U.S. government and American consumer going hat-in-hand around the world begging for credit to fund expenditures, with the United States also at risk of meeting its foreign "obligations." We are presumed to be suffering the consequences of being a debtor nation.

Fortunately, the truth is far from the mythology. To expose these myths, all that's needed is a closer look at what's really happening. First it's the U.S. consumer who is funding foreign savings, and not foreign savings that is funding the consumer. Second, U.S. Treasury issuance has to do with alternative accounts at the Federal Reserve, and is not the precursor of financial stress.

What occurs when a U.S. consumer purchases a German-made car? If the consumer pays cash, the consumer's checking account in a U.S. bank is debited and the German carmaker's account is credited, thereby increasing foreign savings of U.S. dollars. Total deposits in the U.S. banking system remain the same. (By the way, there is no cargo ship in New York harbor taking dollars back to Germany. All that occurs is a change in holders of U.S. dollar deposits in the banking system.)

When the consumer borrows to buy the car rather than using cash in his bank account (a more likely option), the bank makes a loan to the consumer, creating a loan on the asset side of the bank's balance sheet and a new deposit on the liability side. (Loans create deposits.) After the car is paid for, the German car company has the new bank deposit. Note that consumer borrowing increased total bank deposits and funded foreign deposits (savings) of U.S. dollars. The widely held causal myth is that foreigners are funding U.S. consumers.

That's what the trade gap is all about-the desire of foreigners to net save U.S. dollars and to sell goods and services to the U.S. to obtain those assets. If foreigners did not desire to save U.S. dollars, they would instead buy goods and services from the U.S. and there would be no trade deficit.

Following the above transaction, the foreign holder of U.S. dollar bank deposits may decide to invest in U.S. Treasury securities rather than hold a bank deposit. At the time of the German car company's purchase of these securities, the seller of the Treasury securities becomes the new holder of the bank deposit, and the foreigner the new holder of the Treasury security. (If the foreigner buys securities directly from the Treasury the result is the same.)

When foreigners hold Treasury securities, the U.S. government is said to have foreign creditors, and the U.S. is said to be a debtor nation. While this is true by definition, a look past the rhetoric at what the U.S. government actually owes the holder of Treasury securities is revealing. The government promises that, at maturity, the foreigner's security account at the Fed will be debited, and his bank's reserve account at the Fed will be credited for the balance due. In other words, the U.S. government's promise is only that, at maturity of the Treasury security, a non-interest bearing reserve balance will be substituted for an interest bearing Treasury security. This transaction is not a potential source of financial stress for the government. Remember, the U.S. is no longer on a gold standard meaning that the dollar is not redeemable at the government for gold or any other good or service. Holders of deposits or Treasury securities can't demand the surrender of our national parks, or any other U.S. asset.

Understanding that government deficits add to savings and that U.S. consumers fund the desires of foreigners to save is a good way to start seeing through the media's economic mythology.

— Thomas E. Nugent is executive vice president and chief investment officer of PlanMember Advisors, Inc. and chief investment officer for Victoria Capital Management, Inc. Warren Mosler is associate fellow, Cambridge Centre for Economic and Public Policy, Department of Land Economy, University of Cambridge, Cambridge, U.K.


Trade-deficit trash talk
By Lawrence Kudlow
THE WASHINGTON TIMES (http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20040516-102451-5869r.htm)

For all the hullabaloo about the widening trade deficit, no one talks about the spectacular performance of U.S. exports. This is a key recovery indicator, and it's booming.

Two years ago U.S. exports were falling by nearly 15 percent, a recessionary sign. For the 12 months ending in March, however, total exports of goods and services increased by 14.6 percent. This turnaround, forged in rapid technology gains and record productivity, shows the world-class competitiveness of American workers and businesses.

The recent decline in the exchange value of the dollar from the astronomical overshoot of a few years ago has also helped. So has the pickup of business investment funding that followed the Bush tax cuts of 2003. The U.S. export picture is rosy indeed.

Pessimistic pundits go berserk every time trade-deficit numbers are published. But their gloom and doom is hogwash. The U.S. has run a sizable trade gap for nearly 25 years, even while the economy has prospered mightily, total job creation has increased significantly, and interest rates and inflation have generally trended lower.

Sifting through reports on the $46 billion trade gap for March, it's clear that the domestic and international media (particularly in Old Europe) is obsessed with blaming U.S. imports for the world's economic ills. We profligate Americans consume too much, they say. We live too well. Blame America. Nonsense.

Yes, imports exceeded exports in March. So what? This is not over-consumption by individuals. U.S. imports of industrial supplies and capital goods that fuel business expansion and job creation at home rose 10.5 percent and 16.5 percent respectively over the past year. Meanwhile, imports of consumer goods increased 10.6 percent. This is a good balance. It's also the single biggest stimulus to many foreign economies, especially Europe's.

The U.S. has a very open and relatively low-tariff trading policy that enables businesses and consumers to purchase high-quality goods at the lowest prices worldwide. This enhances our living standards and prosperity. Just ask the 135 million Wal-Mart customers who shop at the local store or on-line. They're on a worldwide shopping tour that never leaves the neighborhood.

Interestingly, when measured on a 12-month basis, total exports are actually growing slightly faster (11.8 percent) than total imports (11.3 percent). And while we're buying consumer-type goods and services at a 10.6 percent clip, we're actually selling consumer goods abroad at a 17.4 percent rate. More, while we're purchasing business investment goods at a 16.5 percent pace, we're selling our homemade business products at an 18.4 percent rate.

All this reflects the health of the American economy. During the early '80s and again in the early '90s the U.S. briefly ran trade surpluses. But those were recessionary periods. Imports collapsed along with the economy.

Why then do so many insist on a trade surplus? Here's a simple solution to our "trade gap": Run a scorched-earth monetary implosion to jack-up interest rates and shrink liquidity, then raise personal and business tax rates. This root-canal economic policy will terminate the economic recovery. But it will probably bring on a trade surplus. Is this what people want?

Here's a better tune, which is playing right now: Pro-growth tax reforms, deregulation, flexible labor markets and free-trade policies have worked to grow the U.S. economy much faster than the economies of Europe or Japan. So we buy more from them than they buy from us. Again, so what?

Balancing our trade gap, indeed propelling our growth-driven trade deficit, is a steady flow of foreign capital into our high-return economy. Last year, net private capital inflows were $370 billion. The actual current account deficit for goods and services is $490 billion. The difference is a statistical discrepancy, one that likely reflects government undercounting of small-business exports.

One other important point. Our biggest export customer, in terms of growth, is China. Over the past 12 months U.S.-China sales have expanded at a 39.1 percent rate. That's bigger than what we sell to Mexico (23.9 percent), Japan (15.2 percent), or Western Europe (12.7 percent). We may be running a trade deficit with China, but we're also tapping into that vast new market at a very rapid rate. It's this expanding export market that will open the door to millions of new jobs in America.

U.S. Treasury Secretary John Snow has been exhorting our global trade partners to adopt strong pro-growth policies of lower tax rates, monetary expansion and trade liberalization. This is the best way to narrow the U.S. trade gap and expand the global economic pie at the same time. Making our export customers stronger makes us stronger.

The international trade game must never be zero-sum, where one nation benefits at the expense of another. Instead, global trade and world economic growth should be a win-win for all the nations involved.

Lawrence Kudlow is a nationally syndicated columnist, chief executive officer of Kudlow & Co., LLC, and CNBC's economics commentator.

[kinghk]

The original DES spec called for a 128 bit key, but the NSA asked IBM to shorten the key length to 56 bits before adopting the standard. There has always been a rumor that this was done because the key would still be strong enough to resist ordinary mortals efforts in the 70s, but not strong enough for the NSA. Also, the NSA had knowledge of differential cryptanalysis techniques back in the 70s, though the general public only knew of this technique when it was rediscovered publicly in the 90s. Incidentally, the Electronic Frontier Foundation built their own crypto cracking computer a few years ago for $250,000 and managed to crack DES in like a day. IIRC someone predicted fairly recently that if chips are ordered in bulk, anyone willing to shell out around 5 million bucks can build a much faster DES cracker that will do the job in a few minutes.

Thanks for the info, I was not aware of some of it.
The EFF DES cracker was announced in July 1998, and the attack took less than 3 days. But anyway, there is no doubt that anyone with some financial and technical resources have the ability to crack DES within short amount of time.

[Shadow]

.nur einer von zehn kann sich außer im Englischen noch in einer weiteren Fremdsprache ausdrücken.

Ahh funny, Gymnasium = learning 2 forign languages (1.english 2.frech) + Latin, that's minimum. And when you are changing from Realschule to Gymnasium you must speak 3 languages.:P (1.german, 2.english.3.XXX)

And what do you learn in the US? Except spanish?

[ibstolidude]

.nur einer von zehn kann sich außer im Englischen noch in einer weiteren Fremdsprache ausdrücken.

Ahh funny, Gymnasium = learning 2 forign languages (1.english 2.frech) + Latin, that's minimum. And when you are changing from Realschule to Gymnasium you must speak 3 languages.:P (1.german, 2.english.3.XXX)

And what do you learn in the US? Except spanish? Actually I speak four languages ranging from Russian to Farsi. (and several that I have a great understanding of) - thanks all the same to you; you 2 languages speaking chump (3, oh that is right you consider you own language as well). It will never cease to amaze me how the bashing of the US and making generalizations against it are acceptable; but are when resiprocated people such as your self cry wolf.

Did you ever take the time to actually consider why there is a difference in the historical data that lead to a seperate focus on languages? Could it be, now I know this is a crazy idea, the fact the linguistically the North American continent is one of the largest homogenous areas in the world. Now lets compare that to the EU where 5 hour drove can cross 2 countries - in Texas a 5 hour drive will get you to another city. The need for multiple languages, especially European, is not that great in North America. Languages are taught and required by both highschool and universities, however being the super smart guy you are, you know that language is a perishable skill. Unlike in the less homogenous EU, in American the only way the average person will need to be speaking german is if they spend loads of money and travel to Germany.

I know you would rather racistly impose your epistemology on the US, than consider the factors that lead to a different way of thought, but please keep it to yourself. You have already been shown a fool in this thread. Perhaps you would be better off to discontinue this ignorant line babble.

[budanski]

What Shadow forgets is that the US exists because WE chose to leave Europe to get away from them because we are not like them in the first place! America has always rejected europe's fuedalism and acceptance of serfdom. His fellow countrymen Kitsune, talks of world domination within 10 years, lets just hope their next leader (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/09/30/2003069873/print), that'll take them there, won't have a funny little moustache.

If you think their economy is bad now (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aVpC17LfW38U&refer=germany), just wait till the newer p-EU members start dipping into their welfare programs while also paying for their own force protection. Their Socialism takes 48% of peoples wages out of their pockets before taxes. They continually find new ways to tax people more. The cost of living is atrocious. They are an old generation who is too lazy to breed (http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/031103/solutions.html). Their retirements will not be able to be paid because in another 20 years the ratio will be 1:1. Now add to the new European union special taxes they haven't even dreamed of: Defense Taxes, since we won't be paying it for them anymore and they want to create their own military force, Special equalisation taxes to prop up the "new" members coming into Europe, etc. I love the quagmire they themselves created (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,,1431_A_1119669_1_A,00.html). I have always said, The "Wirtschaftswunder" didn't come with instructions and they squandered their money.

[Midav]

America has become fat. You are living on foreign investments, your research labs rely on foreign brain matter. Only you sheer size has saved you. Until so far.
You are vulnerable and dependent. But you have failed to realize how much. Instead you have grown cocky. You think you can do without anyone else.
And that is the difference. European nations haven't.

All I can say, from my experience (a lot) with Americans: There is no genetic superiority there. America has created an enviroment which is good for enterprise. Europeans can and do thrive in this enviroment, at least as good as Americans. We have to learn to make Europe such an enviroment. And we are willing to learn.
Otherwise there is nothing fundamental, in which America is superior. Not intelligence, not education, not virtue, not morals.
On the contrary: we can learn how not to do it. Americans are not well educated or informed. Others, who are are dangerously narrowminded. Some are incredibly rich. But many others are dangerously poor, people who never get a chance in life, around 40 million who do not get "the best health care the world can provide"...they do not get any. Criminal statistics are dangerously high...in all these things Europe already does better.
You do not want to learn from us? Nothing we Euroweenies can teach Great America? Well, at present you can afford this attitude.
We will see wether you still can in 10 years.

That was one of the reasons why I left Germany. People think they feel superior and even when I did mind my own business, I regularly heard the argument "Der ami hat schuld an allem" (The American is at fault for everything).

It is something becoming more and more common in Germany.

No, not saying all Germans are like that. At least my oma and opa, some family were more open minded, as were many others I knew.

I'm sorry kitsune, but before you wish to pass judgement, clean your own backyard first.

[Red]

Not really breakable. There is no known mathematical vulnerabilities in DES, the problem with DES is simply that the 56 bit code is to easy to brute-force. DES was made in 1977, not that odd that it is insecure now, considering how mach faster todays computers are.


But to be serious it will only take a while before such codes will be broken.

A while? DES lasted from about 20 years, before the algorithm was considered insecure. DES is still a good algorithm, unless your trying to hide your secrets from governmental agencies and such, to break DES you'll still need huge amount of computer power.

The original DES spec called for a 128 bit key, but the NSA asked IBM to shorten the key length to 56 bits before adopting the standard. There has always been a rumor that this was done because the key would still be strong enough to resist ordinary mortals efforts in the 70s, but not strong enough for the NSA. Also, the NSA had knowledge of differential cryptanalysis techniques back in the 70s, though the general public only knew of this technique when it was rediscovered publicly in the 90s. Incidentally, the Electronic Frontier Foundation built their own crypto cracking computer a few years ago for $250,000 and managed to crack DES in like a day. IIRC someone predicted fairly recently that if chips are ordered in bulk, anyone willing to shell out around 5 million bucks can build a much faster DES cracker that will do the job in a few minutes.
There is alos a dedicated machine designed to break DES algorithms.But something we should look at is the clipperchip-skipjack used by the FBI

[Shadow]

.nur einer von zehn kann sich außer im Englischen noch in einer weiteren Fremdsprache ausdrücken.

Ahh funny, Gymnasium = learning 2 forign languages (1.english 2.frech) + Latin, that's minimum. And when you are changing from Realschule to Gymnasium you must speak 3 languages.:P (1.german, 2.english.3.XXX)

And what do you learn in the US? Except spanish? Actually I speak four languages ranging from Russian to Farsi. (and several that I have a great understanding of) - thanks all the same to you; you 2 languages speaking chump (3, oh that is right you consider you own language as well). It will never cease to amaze me how the bashing of the US and making generalizations against it are acceptable; but are when resiprocated people such as your self cry wolf.

Did you ever take the time to actually consider why there is a difference in the historical data that lead to a seperate focus on languages? Could it be, now I know this is a crazy idea, the fact the linguistically the North American continent is one of the largest homogenous areas in the world. Now lets compare that to the EU where 5 hour drove can cross 2 countries - in Texas a 5 hour drive will get you to another city. The need for multiple languages, especially European, is not that great in North America. Languages are taught and required by both highschool and universities, however being the super smart guy you are, you know that language is a perishable skill. Unlike in the less homogenous EU, in American the only way the average person will need to be speaking german is if they spend loads of money and travel to Germany.

I know you would rather racistly impose your epistemology on the US, than consider the factors that lead to a different way of thought, but please keep it to yourself. You have already been shown a fool in this thread. Perhaps you would be better off to discontinue this ignorant line babble.

It was just a little question no need to flip out.
oh and german + latin + french + english = 4 languages + QBASIC = 5;)
And when you speak french you also understand some italian or spanish.
The only thing I wanted is to point out that He's quote was wrong.

[weedman]

.nur einer von zehn kann sich außer im Englischen noch in einer weiteren Fremdsprache ausdrücken.

Ahh funny, Gymnasium = learning 2 forign languages...I'm learning English, Latin and Italian right now :)

[Kitsune]

@budanksi:

I have never talked about European world domination. I have talked about independence. That is our right and only fair. But that already seems to offend you.
YOU Americans talk of world domination, that the world is unipolar and should stay that way. Especially the current Neocon regime.

May I remind you: I did not start to tell you how to do it. YOU, budanski, are the one who was constantly posting things that undermine two things:
1)How trashy Europe is.
2)How great America is.
Your sources are totally one sided, your reasoning is flawed. Some things are totally of the mark (did you not state that the eurofighter would use avionics from the seventies, because Europeans would be too stupid to modernize it?). You live in a dream world of total American superiority, but you consistently have to point out the weaknesses of Europe (as if you need an assurance), while downplaying the ones of America.

The "analysis" of the US economic situation you posted is typical. If you as an expert say today, that the trading deficit is no problem at all, you have your audience. (It is just the same if you are an intelligence officer who says that Iraq has WMDs)
This is your mindset: Simply mould reality through propaganda. This is also typical for the Bush regime. You see how it works in Iraq. I doesn't.
With the economy it will be similiar. America has a trading deficit because your economy is pumped with investments from the outside world, but your economy has problems to compete with foreign products. Thats why the US economies finance sector is two times as big as the manufacturing sector. The system works because the US is so big and its consumption keeps the world economy in motion, like a vacuum pump. Foreigners invest the money because of a overwhelming trust in the US, it flows to the American consumer who buys many foreign products, it goes back to the foreigners, who reinvest it (Yeah not with a ship, thank you budanksi, for, until your last post I actually believed they would transport the dollars this way...).
But this circuit has become worse and worse. But not for America. Your economy exploded. But so did your trading deficit (its no coincidence that it soared during the time of your little economic "miracle" in the nineties).
But America is not a source, its a drainage, it consumes more than it produces. That is a truth. And it will not work like it forever.
You feel great. So productive. Like a man on cocaine. But its not gonna last.
Believe it or not budansky: Its is not well as it is.

Unfortunately for you, I know America quite well. Your houses are bigger. True. But they are often shabbily built. (Again YOU started it. You started to compare our houses. Because you wanted to prove that Americans are better off than Germans. They aren't).
There are many rich people, true. But one block to far in a certain direction in most of your cities, and you think you are in a third world region.
You are not perfect. But you think you know it all. But you know ****, budanski. You are just like your president, whose helicopter always flys in and out of Washington by the northwest route, so that he sees only Chevy Chase (which is nice), but not Anacostia (which is not so nice).

But I did only start to mention these things as you started to spread you half truths again and again. You had it coming.
So pull the beam out of your eye first.



@Midav: If you feel offended just because I try to set some things right, I am sorry. But my aim was just to offend budanski, not you.
You are a nice guy. :D

[usa320]

by time they crack Echelon something new and better is already in service with the NSA.

What does the European Union have to hide from us anyway...their oil-for-food scams?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

by time they crack Echelon something new and better is already in service with the NSA.
Echelon is not a code you dafty its a multinational survellance network.

[kinghk]

What does the European Union have to hide from us anyway...their oil-for-food scams?

Is this a serious question?

[budanski]

Ah, sure... lemme just take off my "blinders"

Was it not you who was harping within 10 years, the EU will surpass the U.S. across the board? Who is your savior this time? the ex-terrorist you have for a foreign minister?

Talk about one-sided, its seems a majority of the german member here, all believe the U.S. is the embodiment of the unholy spawn of lucifer. What? Still bitter after getting your ass kicked twice in one century? If you paid any attention to my sources, they come from German and other European media outlets as well (I suggest you go back and re-read my posts and see for yourself). Where are your sources? Bit one-sided don't you think? I have constantly backed up my claims, have you ever? No, because being an arrogant weenie demands that you are right. :roll:

Here's my statement on the Eurofighter:

Conceived in the early 70's, The Euro-Fighter was fine in it's day, but technology has advanced so fast and so far that it is now worthless. The US builds jets and while doing so incorporates emerging technology, as well as yet-to-be-fielded technology. We have program management reviews to ensure we can bring on-board new stuff and produce an aircraft that is practically up-to-date when it rolls off the assembly line. The Europeans, however, because of their laws and labor regulations, they are not able to make ANY changes to the design or construction once the contract is signed. You see, if you make a small component in, let's say, the UK, and someone in Italy makes a better component, you can't make the change as that would upset the balance of trade and put many people out of a job. The result? You produce an aircraft that is twenty years out of date.

But then again.... What the hell do I know.
my source:
Eurofighter History (http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/history.html)
Air Farce One - Eurofighter (http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/04/wfarce04.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/01/04/ixworld.html)

My comment demonstrated the type of structure the EU was using to build this plane which would hinder its advancement. No where did I said the p-EU were too stupid to advance it? Just you being too stupid to understand that. What do you have to counter my claims?

Can you really fault me for living in a "dream world" of American superiority when in fact we ARE the sole superpower? More eurotrash logic I suppose.

I'll say this once more. Its really hard for me to take advice from someone who doesnt really have a leg to stand on. Are you really that blind to your own economy where you spew crap out of reflex? Really though, can you really be that arrogant to think that us Americans should heed to a bunch of economic losers?

You have yet explained how the U.S. economy is going strong with such a bloated trade deficit, while germany's is still tumbling. It is also convienent for you to overlook the first article I posted explaining your "foreign investment" myth. With the U.S. having a low savings rate, these trade defitcits are there. To eliminate the trade deficit, you'll have to raise the rates higher which would substantially stop investments. A recesssion then occurs. IS IT ANY WONDER THE U.S. IS OUT OF THIS RECENT RECESSION? Trade deficits usually get paid off when interest rates rises.

Lets go back a few threads and see who first brought up the issue of the poor in America, our healthcare, our crime rates. You do have a selective memory don't you? My half truths are at least backed up with sources, yet you expect us to swallow the **** you spew out of your mouth. It seems, especially the German members here, have an endless critique of the U.S. and are always quick to give advice on foreign policy. Yet, when you look at Europe's own record at diplomacy, its quite pathetic. Am I surprised you guys feel the way you do for America? No. Is it any surprise that Europe's old sin resurfaces to support the PLA while condemning Israel? No. To keep things in perspective, a third of Germans polled think that the U.S. was behind 9/11.

Just as it hit me a few years back that the liberals who opposed the Vietnam War were against it because the U.S. was fighting the very social system they seeked. No different with your hatred for Reagan in the 80's during the Cold War. After decades of mooching off U.S. taxpayers for your defense and finally deciding to build a force protection of your own, I really hope you do enjoy your independence.

[He219]

Talk about one-sided, for every german member here, all I hear the U.S. is embodiment of the unholy spawn of lucifer..
budanski, I can think of several German forum viewers that believe otherwise; Macs, seventy6er and Rantanplan (along with others) for example ...

;)

[budanski]

budanski, I can think of several German forum viewers that believe otherwise; Macs, seventy6er and Rantanplan (along with others) for example ...

;)

Agreed. Corrected. :oops:

Isnt Mac a Belgian.

[He219]

That would be MacS
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/avatars/1437884393fe1f49e2f828.jpg


The whole peremptory part I do agree with, generally ...
;)

[Kilgor]

To quote enemy of the state.

"But this is the richest, most powerful nation on earth, and therefore the most hated,and you and I know what the average citizen does not, that we are at war twenty-four hours of everyday. "

Being the lone superpower means that everyone has a whinge at you ;)

[budanski]

That would be MacS
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/avatars/1437884393fe1f49e2f828.jpg


:oops: Macs, Max. Have I used the "loss of memory due to age" excuse yet?

[Kitsune]

@budanski:

I am sorry. I simply diagree with your world view. You read a lot of Neocon propaganda and believe it, thats your problem. Your "sources"? In todays web you find a source that backs about anything. You have the picture how things are, formed in your mind already and then go hunting for sources. If you find one that suits you, you post it here. But you will only post a source that says something about how great the US are, never something negative. Likewise you will just show around one that says how ****ty Europe is, France and Germany in particular. You may be that delusional to think that this is objectivity. But it is actually "selective awareness". I did never say that Europes or Germanys economy is perfect. Neither did I post every positive article about it here, or went out hunting after articles that said negative things about America. I did never doubt that the US are a superpower. But I do believe that the US economy is not perfect either, and that the trading deficit is a telltale sign. While the opinion, that it means nothing, has been a majority once among experts, its now only a minority now after it has grown to astronomic proportions and is obviously not stopping. Nearly every expert will nowadays include a sentence, that says that "the US trading balance deficit constitutes a dangerous macroeconomic instability that could seriously endanger the US economy" in his analysis of the US economic situation. They did not do that a few years ago. (You find something like this in the Economist, the Financial Times and nearly every other credible source...except Neocon propaganda sites, of course). But obviously our views differ here. So be it. you find my mentioning of the trading deficit annoying? How often did you mention demographics or that Germany transgressed the stability pact limits? Two dozen times each? Or even more often? Pull the beam out of your eye first.

As for me giving advice, I actually did so. But I did, since if one does not the question arises: "What would you make different? Nothing constructive to say?" In the end I have criticised the US, or pointed out its weaknesses far more seldom than you did with Europe.

Otherwise I did correct some of of your so called "truths". I do not deny that I was against OIF from the start. But I think, I respected those who thought differently about it. You didn't.
It was you, who startet his Anti European propaganda before OIF. And I do not think that it is my selective memory misleading me here. Originally I liked you. Then, post after post, it became annoying, finally offending. It was you, who accused Germany to pull the strings behind the scenes, until an American city would be nuked by terrorists (that was your conclusion out of the fact that some centrifuge parts were found on a German freighter originally destined for Libya...you called that wrongly "uranium"....or is it my selective memory again?) A ridiculous conclusion, one must add, if one looked at the facts of the case. But perhaps symptomatic for your thought processes.
So, my selective memory tells me that you started it. Whatever.

Though we disagree in almost everything, you will presumably agree with me, that whatever you or I may think about reality does not really affect the course things take. What is going to happen, is going too happen, in any case.
So lets end this senseless quarrel. We might as well get along by ignoring each other. And, reagrding your last three posts I think you haven't left a offence out against me and my country. That should have more than evened out whatever I may have said offensive about you and America in the last three years.

Please spare yourself the effort of answering.


@He219:
The whole peremptory part I do agree with, generally ...
I am sorry to hear that. But Budanski will be happy, no doubt. But it seems to be a bit of a "One crow does not pick another ones eye" case here, though. (Just for fun He219: Imagine you would be European. And please take 15 to 20 of budanskis posts, new ones or old ones doesn't matter. Read them. Pay special attention to his offensive or slighting remarks he strews in. And do not forget to click on each and every of his selected links. Read those. And there are people who find Helex annoying or weedman. Both of those mostly posted links and sources, too. If weedmans threads are annoying, and Helexes have been offensive, you would have to invent a new word for budanski. But you did perhaps not realize it, because he only snipes at Europeans).
But since I am just a foreigner I try to behave from now on, by leaving the peremptoriness in budanskis able hands while refraining from it myself...as much as I can.

[He219]

Peremptory relates to my evaluation of vituperative railing, kitsune!
:hug:

Budanski's tone merely reciprocates the torrent of chronic cynicism and haughtiness ..

[budanski]

Kitsune:

Don't think I'll let you off that easily.

Again, you amaze everyone here with your selective memory. My so called truths have been backed up with sources, yet your arrogance makes what you say is right because you said so. Have I not supplied you articles from the Guardian, Deutsche Welle, BBC etc.? When did these become the instrument of the Neocons? With a free press and the advent of 24 hour news berating Bush at every corner (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15248), what is the Neocon agenda there? The chances of scandal going undetected under great scrutiny is nil.

Your statement just proves your a bigger idiot than I thought. When all else fails, its the Neocons. Still have a disdain for jews in prominent positions I see.

Much like the Arabic world, control of the media by the government allows European governments to deflect anger at their own corruption and incompetence abroad. As always in a free press enviroment, it is us americans that will always lack the superior ability to see through the Neocon agenda.:roll:

America has the freest press in the world, and the most conservatives. Isnt the connection interesting?


Budanski's tone merely reciprocates the torrent of chronic cynicism and haughtiness ..
I'm getting it checked out... ;)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

America has the freest press in the world, and the most conservatives. Isnt the connection interesting?
The freest press in the world you say, I think the US lost that title a wee while ago, Reporters without Borders places the US at 17th in the free press index and shockingly the UK is at 21 just behind Ecuador.
Finland, Iceland, Norway and Netherlands jointly hold the number one spot. Reporters without Borders is a French based organisation so many may feel there is a conspiracy to keep the US of the top spot, saying that they place France at number 11.

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4118

[budanski]

When you've got Israel ranking below the Palestinian Authority, what usually follows is a BIG FREAKING BULL**** METER.

I mean c'mon, Why are these countries, riddled with dictatorship and/or rebellion and/or civil war and/or revolution could possibly be ranked before Israel?


51 Sri Lanka 15,75 - state of emergency
52 Uganda 17,00 - dictatorship
53 Niger 18,50 - dictatorship
55 Ivory Coast 19,00 - coupdetat in progress
56 Lebanon 19,67 - syrian puppet
60 Yugoslavia 20,75 - how could they have quickly become democratic after Milosovich?
65 Madagascar 22,75 - civil war
67 Bahrain 23,00 - absolute monarchy
72 Sierra Leone 24,50 - haha, this is a funny one. A country riddled by military dictatorship and revolution
78 Kuwait 25,50 - monarchy
82 Palestinian National Authority 27,00 - hmmm....self-explanitory
89 Swaziland 29,00 - absolute monarchy

92 Israel 30,00 - THIS IS THE RANK ISRAEL GETS?

Heres the Wall Street Journal's take on "Reporters without Brains"
take 1: (http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110002514#rsb)
Reporters Without Brains (http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4116)
The French group Reporters Sans Frontières (Reporters Without Borders) has issued its "first worldwide press freedom index," and it's rather risible. Much of the commentary on the report has focused on the apparent anti-U.S. and anti-Israel bias: America ranks 17th out of 139 countries, behind Canada, Costa Rica and 14 European nations. Even more absurdly, Israel--which, as anyone who's been there knows, has a vigorous and open press--ranks 92nd, below even the "Palestian National Authority," which comes in at No. 82.

No doubt bias against America and Israel is partly to blame for these results, but there's more to it than that. RSF has a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't standard for countries where wars are going on. "Some countries with democratically-elected governments are way down in the index," notes RSF, "such as Colombia (114th) and Bangladesh (118th). In these countries, armed rebel movements, militias or political parties constantly endanger the lives of journalists. The state fails to do all it could to protect them." Likewise, the group scores Israel for the hazards journalists face in West Bank and Gaza war zones.

But RSF also demands that governments give reporters unfettered access to war zones. Indeed, one of the bases for the U.S.'s comparatively low ranking is that "since the 11 September attacks, several journalists have been arrested for crossing security lines at some official buildings." In other words, RSF wants absolute liberty and absolute security for journalists who choose to cover wars--an assignment anyone should realize entails significant danger.

What's most noteworthy about the Palestinian Authority's rating isn't that it does better than Israel but that it does better than any other Arab country in the survey except Lebanon (No. 56), Bahrain (67) and Kuwait (78). (Our friends the Saudis finish 125th, between Belarus and Syria.) The reason the Palestinians do better than most of the Arab brethren almost certainly is that they don't have a real state. Can there be any doubt that a Palestine governed by the same gang of thugs and terrorists who run the Palestinian Authority would be considerably more repressive?

take 2: (http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110002870)
Reporters Without Brains--II (http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4700)
The French group Reporters Sans Frontières (Reporters Without Borders)--which, as we noted in November, thinks the Palestinian Authority has more respect than Israel for freedom of the press--is criticizing the Palestinians for detaining an al-Jazeera journalist who reported that Yasser Arafat's al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades took responsibility for the latest mass murders in Tel Aviv. (The authority now claims its held the reporter because he refused to reveal a source.)

Well, good--RSF should be attacking the Palestinian Authority. But the first part of this quote from an RSF press release (we've put it in italics) is positively jaw-dropping:

"We are glad the Palestinian Authority is actively combating organisations that sow terror and death in Israel," said Reporters Without Borders secretary-general Robert Ménard. "However, the right of journalists not to reveal sources is an untouchable part of press freedom and even the need to fight terrorism cannot justify arresting journalists to force them to disclose sources."

[Shadow]

lol Bunanski every post of you gets more and more desperate.

[radon]

I have long tought that Budanski is the American Helex. Same **** only different view. Is it just me when I think some sort of a missionary on a mission , when I have read the posts of the two people. After those Eurofighter comments I could only think "redneck", you are looking and looking to find something to insult certain countries. I personally find your posts annoying. Us is richer than most countries in the world. Well most people here dont care too much , and the situation is propably just the same in many parts of the World.

http://www.gao.gov/docdblite/details.php?rptno=GAO-04-597T

Look at those dates in that link , when development started on that thing. Now I dont bother to look up the dates for f-35. Development of Eurofighter started long ago , it doesent mean the things arent updated. That is just ignorance to fit your agenda. Things arent like 60 years ago when planes were developed in just a couple of years. And you dont have to mention twice that Eurofighter is not superior to the American machines in development.


What Shadow forgets is that the US exists because WE chose to leave Europe to get away from them because we are not like them in the first place! America has always rejected europe's fuedalism and acceptance of serfdom. His fellow countrymen Kitsune, talks of world domination within 10 years, lets just hope their next leader (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2003/09/30/2003069873/print), that'll take them there, won't have a funny little moustache.

I thought you were asian? In what century do you live? The last or in the 1700?s :roll:
I have never seen Kitsune posting anything about German World http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Amd that neonazi card was very desperate. Most of your criticism is true to some extent. You take something , and twist it and interpret it to fit your ideology perfectly and bloat it massive dimensions. :bash:

[Loco]

sd

[Loco]

Much like the Arabic world, control of the media by the government allows European governments to deflect anger at their own corruption and incompetence abroad. As always in a free press enviroment, it is us americans that will always lack the superior ability to see through the Neocon agenda.:roll:
America has the freest press in the world, and the most conservatives. Isnt the connection interesting?

Interesting discussion what you´ve, but I feel that here, Budanski, you´ve failed, I´d say you lied and you know it, but I don´t say it p-)
I just can´t see how is that USA has the freest media of the world. Of course you´ve an old democracy, but it´s not the same being the most powerful country, in military terms, than the best democracy. You must do democracy every hour and every minute. The case of manipulated votes in Florida would unconceivable in many european countries you despise. What you´ve said about the media controled by european governments it´s wrong.

I could talk of Spain. There are some Tv public channels, a national channel and some locals, wich usually support the policy of the actual ruling governmnent in the big lines, but with many exceptions, being the national government or the local one, but there are many newspapers, and radios, and some independent tv channels, that they have their own points of view. Of course, the media usually are more conservative than liberal since they are private companies, and companies usually think that conservatives defend better their business that liberals, but between black and white, there are many greys in Spain in that issue, and the war of Iraq was one of this exceptions, where some conservative newspapers supported all the genesis of Iraq war, and other conservatives media didn´t, in spite of supporting the government of Aznar in every issue except the war, that´s what I call independent criterium, or the searches that tv channels, radios and newspapers did just after the 3/11 bombs in Madrid, who contradicted the movements of spanish governments, even the insults, to focus their interest in islamics terrorists. Of course, the considered liberal media didn´t support the war nor the lies surrounding this war since a year ago and you can say certainly that they are free and independent media depending only of their own resources. Thats stupidness and polemy of WMD today, because is stupid, is considered ridicule here to being discussed yet just because it was demostrated a year ago that was in a big part false, if there was WMD they were used 20 years ago against Iran and Kurds, but not after mostly because they didn´t had it, and I wonder how many americans had the chances or the willing of reading the adventures of Hans Blix with Hussein and with the military inspectors attached to him coming from USA and Europe, and the boycotts he suffered. But now in the other side of the poole it seems some of the "freest media of the world" are discovering the wheel again, my congratulations to you.
We could talk too of the role played by journalists in Basque Country, which I know of first hand, defying terror at home, many times defying the major trend, and when we had our Abu Ghraib in Spain, with the dirty war against ETA, even so our media supported the fight both against ETA and the gubernamental terror, and in those hard years, yet don´t finished, our media had the privilege of being threatened by terrorists and hardly critizised by governments. I know there´re some public media in USA too, and I know how are things in a free market economy. You can´t live without advertisments, and publics advertisments are basic for the survival of an enterprise, and if any channel lacks of public contracts, it´s out of the business, and public contracts is that of public agencies of private companies who depends of public cash. The case of Disney and Michael Moore I wouldn´t say it reflects a wealthy free atmosphera for media.
Btw, jounalists must do their job in the field if he wants to do a good job, which is something risk usually if we talk of war. How many american journalist has died in Iraq war? Do you know how many foreing journalist have died? I ask it because USA is huge, and as you said, with the best media of the world, so may be your journalist are more invulnerables than others. I don´t know if it´s casuality, but the 2 spanish journalists died in Iraq, they worked for anti-war media, one of them died by Iraqi fire and the other one died by american fire, and with this I mean they were everywhere for telling us in the most accurately way the things we see. And in the same way, spanish journalists, like other europeans I think, have died in every major or minor conflict of the last decades, and I don´t count the ones killed by terrorists in Spain. I wonder how many americans journalists has died compared with the spanish, or europeans, gathering information in the field.
But this began about the Echelon net. Well, I suggest to come back to the beginning. I think every one chose their friends because you can´t chose your family. Well, the americans only chose their friends between relatives, ;) The Echelon is the demostration of an unwritten alliance against everybody. USA don´t have to spy allied countries like until now.
And I don´t want to load all my criticism in the american side. It seems here that all the ones with an european flag are germans, why? are you afraid of showing your national flag? The case is that some forum members are talking in the name of europe, and those europeans are of only 1 or 2 europeans countries, mostly northern countries. Well, I don´t share many of your points of view, and your "european vision" is not the official european point of view, which it doesn´t exist btw. I don´t understant this "european patriotism", it´s false, you know it doesn´t exist such thing. There are german, french or spanish interests, if we europeans are together it´s because we share an small territory and some fundamental cultural sources, but we aren´t an homogeneous body opposed to USA or the rest of America. It´s stupid making future projections talking of the european block over USA or Russia or China, we won´t be an independent block by itself, we´ll have even stronger links with America and other close countries(close by culture, policy and economy: Japan is a close country), in the same factual way USA is linked with Australia, NZeland and GB. I mentioned before that above all I feel basque and spanish, after that I can see that I have many common points with other europeans, but mostly as opposition of the rest of the world: compared with a chines or even an usa citizen, I think there´s a kind of european way of entertaining, eating, drinking or making movies, and there´s and american(including latinoamerica) way of doing those things, that isn´t better but different. And I don´t feel closer to many europeans than I feel to many latinoamerican countries, even to USA. It´s complicated and I´m afraid I didn´t explained well, brrrr, too long, but I´m sure many in europe share my point of view. :roll:

[radon]

Much like the Arabic world, control of the media by the government allows European governments to deflect anger at their own corruption and incompetence abroad. As always in a free press enviroment, it is us americans that will always lack the superior ability to see through the Neocon agenda.:roll:

America has the freest press in the world, and the most conservatives. Isnt the connection interesting?

How does the goverment control the media in many European countries? State owned media isnt the answer here, there is privately owned media everywhere. Even if you say much of the media has a similiar political ideology like many goverments but that doesent mean goverment control of the media. There is other media available , publishing ultra conservative media is possible everywhere.

And I excuse because of the end of my last post. It looked like it was written by someone with very bad dyslexia :cantbeli:

[TRACER_BULLET]

Europe (and especially Germany) is in the field of satellite laser cross linking technology at least 5 years ahead of the US. ;)


Another reason to futher fund the balistic missle defence programs & Star wars technology programs ...
We'll just shoot down your satellites
p-)

[SwissGrenadier]

noooooooooo all the us needs is a VEDIC DEFENSE SHIELD!!!!
rofl rofl rofl
www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/vedicdefence.htm

that's one of the things i like about switzerland.no nazi party, no communist party, no natural law party :D

[Kilgor]

Through a glass darkly: rivalry distorts US views of Europe
By Hans Bergstrom

Thursday, May 20, 2004,Page 9

Europeans are constantly reminded of all that is wrong with the US. But perhaps Europeans should reverse the process: what do Americans think is wrong with Europe?

Above all, Americans see Europe as a continent of self-inflicted stagnation -- and with good reason. Economic growth in the EU was near zero last year. Several countries, most notably Germany and France, seem hobbled by inflexible labor markets and regulations that inhibit dynamism. The European Union's highly touted Lisbon Declaration of a few years ago, which proclaimed that Europe would become the world's most competitive region by 2010, appears laughable to Americans, whose productivity gains seem to scale new heights constantly.

The US also sees Europe as excessively inward-looking, sometimes dangerously so. Worse, informed Americans see anti-Semitism running rampant in Europe and xenophobic political parties on the march in country after country. Not even pacific Scandinavia is exempt from this.

Americans see a total inability by Europe to handle immigration in ways that encourage dynamism and diversity instead of antagonism and higher state spending. This seems all the more puzzling because Americans realize how badly Europe needs new immigrants, given its extremely low fertility rates.

Europe's perceived attitude toward rogue states and global terrorism only enhances this perception of self-satisfied inwardness. Americans may differ about what policy should have been pursued in Iraq, but they know that their country cannot run from its role as a world leader responsible for developments in North Korea, the Middle East, Pakistan, India, Taiwan and elsewhere.

It is a jungle out there, as Americans say; not every problem and conflict can be handled through the sort of peaceful, drawn-out negotiations that the EU prefers. Germany and France were against meeting former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein with military force, but had no alternative for getting rid of the butcher of Baghdad.

"What was the European answer to the problem of Saddam Hussein?" asked Senator Joe Biden in a panel discussion at the recent Davos forum. Biden is a Democrat and strong critic of President George W. Bush. "I asked French and German leaders, but never received any credible answer."

"We are not even ready to forcefully meet conflicts on our own continent," Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski sighed. Bosnia's Muslims thank the US, not the EU, for their deliverance from slaughter. Europe devotes half as much in financial resources to the military as the US, resulting in one-tenth of America's military strength, observed Pat Cox, speaker of the European Parliament.

Americans now see Europe as compounding its military weakness by losing its leading position in science. Two-thirds of Nobel laureates in the sciences during the last quarter-century were Americans; many of the others do or did research at US universities.

According to Time magazine, 400,000 European researchers now work in the US. Lack of funding, bureaucracies so complicated that even purchasing a used computer is problematic, hierarchies that hamper curiosity and creativity: all of these barriers confront European scientists and are responsible for inciting today's "brain drain" to the US.

Add economics to this sour recipe. Price regulations and other ill-considered features of European policy contribute to the fact that 60 percent of the world's new drugs are developed in the US, compared to 40 percent only 10 years ago.

This sterility and inertia make Europe less and less interesting for Americans. So US eyes are turning elsewhere: to China with its 1.3 billion people and an economy growing at 8 percent to 10 percent, year in and year out, and to India, with its 1.1 billion people and 6 percent annual growth.

Indeed, India now has some of the world's best engineers, information technology experts and medical professionals. India probably encompasses the world's largest middle class. With new patent laws coming into place, India will have the same attraction for the pharmaceutical industry that it has had for information technology, providing clinical trials for new drugs at a quarter of the cost of Europe or the US.

While the US increases its population somewhat due to normal reproductive rates and large immigration flows, Europe's share of the world's population is approaching a mere 4 percent and is growing older as it shrinks even more.

Demographic change in the US is also working to change America's global orientation. With US immigration dominated by Latin Americans and Asians, the US feels its European heritage less. Similarly, domestic US politics gravitates to the country's south and west, regions that look toward Latin America and Asia, not Europe. The fall of the Soviet empire naturally also reduced US security interests in Europe.

Is this US view of Europe unfair? Perhaps, but no more unfair than how the US is regularly portrayed in Europe's media these days.

But if Americans are critical of Europe, they are also self-critical, far more so than most Europeans. As a European editor wrote apropos the flow of scientists from Europe to the US: "What's most sad is that Europeans still believe that their society represents the epitome of civilization, while the US is on its way to downfall. What if the reality is the reverse?" Every European should contemplate that possibility, at least for a moment, before resuming their current aversion to all things American.

Hans Bergstrom, associate professor of political science at the University of Gothenburg, was formerly editor-in-chief of Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's leading newspaper

[Seiyuuki]

Maybe people should fix problems within their own respected continent first before preaching to each others on what is right and wrong.

[budanski]

This Hans Bergstrom must be on the Neocon payroll. ;)

[Kitsune]

Seiyuuki wrote:

Maybe people should fix problems within their own respected continent first before preaching to each others on what is right and wrong.
If a certain American does that, I promise to do the same.


A certain American ;) wrote:

This Hans Bergstrom must be on the Neocon payroll.
No, he is just the Swedish version of Michael Moore.

[moughoun]

Alright I'm sorry I posted the ****ing thing in the first place, can we let it die the death it deserves now :slap: