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Kilo
11-28-2007, 07:02 AM
libertarian

n. 1. a person who believes in the doctrine of the freedom of the will
2. a person who believes in full individual freedom of thought, expression and action
3. a freewheeling rebel who hates wiretaps, loves Ron Paul and is redirecting politics


By Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch
Sunday, November 25, 2007; B01

How to make sense of the Ron Paul (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Ron+Paul?tid=informline) revolution? What's behind the improbably successful (so far) presidential campaign of a 72-year-old 10-term Republican congressman from Texas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Texas?tid=informline) who pines for the gold standard while drawing praise from another relic from the hyperinflationary 1970s, punk-rocker Johnny Rotten?
Now with about 5 percent (and climbing) support in polls of likely Republican voters, Paul set a one-day GOP (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Republican+Party?tid=informline) record by raising $4.3 million on the Internet from 38,000 donors on Nov. 5 -- Guy Fawkes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Guy+Fawkes?tid=informline) Day, the commemoration of a British anarchist who plotted to blow up Parliament and kill King James I in 1605. Paul's campaign, which is three-quarters of the way to its goal of raising "$12 Million to Win" by Dec. 31, didn't even organize the fundraiser -- an independent-minded supporter did.

When a fierce Republican foe of the wars on drugs and terrorism is able, without really trying, to pull in a record haul of campaign cash on a day dedicated to an attempted regicide, it's clear that a new and potentially transformative force is growing in American politics.

That force is less about Paul than about the movement that has erupted around him -- and the much larger subset of Americans who are increasingly disillusioned with the two major political parties' soft consensus on making government ever more intrusive at all levels, whether it's listening to phone calls without a warrant, imposing fines of half a million dollars for broadcast "obscenities" or jailing grandmothers for buying prescribed marijuana from legal dispensaries.

Paul, who entered Congress in 1976, has been dubbed "Dr. No" by his colleagues because of his consistent nay votes on federal spending, military intervention in Iraq (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Iraq?tid=informline) and elsewhere, and virtually all expansions of federal power (he cast one of three GOP votes against the original USA Patriot Act). But his philosophy of principled libertarianism is anything but negative: It's predicated on the fundamental notion that a smaller government allows individuals the freedom to pursue happiness as they see fit.
Given such a live-and-let-live ethos, it's no surprise that at a time when people run screaming from such labels as "liberal" and "conservative," you can hardly turn around in Washington, Hollywood (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Hollywood?tid=informline) or even Berkeley (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Berkeley?tid=informline) without running into another self-described libertarian.

The lefty Internet titan Markos "Daily Kos (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Kos+Media+LLC?tid=informline)" Moulitsas penned a widely read manifesto last year pegging the future of his party to the "Libertarian Democrat." The conservative pundit Jonah Goldberg declared this year that he's "much more of a libertarian" lately. Bill Maher (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Bill+Maher?tid=informline), Christopher Hitchens (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Christopher+Hitchens?tid=informline), Tucker Carlson, "South Park" co-creator Matt Stone -- self-described libertarians all. Surely it's a milestone when Drew Carey (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Drew+Carey?tid=informline), the new host of that great national treasure "The Price Is Right (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/The+Price+Is+Right?tid=informline)," becomes an outspoken advocate of open borders, same-*** marriage, free speech and repealing drug prohibition. As Michael Kinsley, an arch purveyor of conventional wisdom, wrote recently in Time magazine (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Time+Inc.?tid=informline), such people are going to be "an increasingly powerful force in politics."
Kinsley is hardly alone in recognizing this trend. In April 2006, the Pew Research Center (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Pew+Research+Center?tid=informline) published a study suggesting that 9 percent of Americans -- more than enough to swing every presidential election since 1988 -- espouse a "libertarian" ideology that opposes "government regulation in both the economic and the social spheres." That is, a good chunk of your fellow citizens are fiscally conservative and socially liberal; in bumper-stickerese, they love their countrymen but distrust their government. Anyone looking to win elections -- or to make sense of contemporary U.S. politics -- would do well to understand the deep and growing reservoir that Paul is tapping into.

Though relatively unknown at the national level, Paul is hardly an unknown legislative quantity. A former Libertarian Party presidential candidate, he has at various times called for abolishing the Internal Revenue Service (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Internal+Revenue+Service?tid=informline), the CIA (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Central+Intelligence+Agency?tid=informline) and several Cabinet-level agencies. A staunch opponent of abortion, he nonetheless believes that federal bans violate the more basic principle of delegating powers to the states. A proponent of a border wall with Mexico (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Mexico?tid=informline)CNN (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Cable+News+Network+LP+LLLP?tid=informline) host Lou Dobbs (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Lou+Dobbs?tid=informline) fawned over Paul earlier this year), he is the only GOP candidate to come out against any form of national I.D. card. (nativist
Such positions may not be fully consistent or equally attractive, but Paul's insistence on a constitutionally limited government has won applause from surprising quarters. Singer Barry Manilow (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Barry+Manilow?tid=informline) donated the maximum $2,300 to his campaign; the hipster singer-songwriter John Mayer (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/John+Mayer?tid=informline) was videotaped yelling "Ron Paul knows the Constitution!" and 67,000 people have signed up for Paul-related Meet Up pages on the Internet. On ABC's "This Week" recently, George Will (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/George+Will?tid=informline) half-jokingly cautioned his fellow pundits, "Don't forget my man Ron Paul" in the New Hampshire (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/New+Hampshire?tid=informline) primary. Fellow panelist Jake Tapper seconded the emotion, saying, "He really is the one true straight talker in this race."

Yet Paul's success has mostly left the mainstream media and pundits flustered, if not openly hostile. The Associated Press (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/The+Associated+Press?tid=informline) recently treated the Paul phenomenon like an alien life form: "The Texas libertarian's rise in the polls and in fundraising proves that a small but passionate number of Americans can be drawn to an advocate of unorthodox proposals." Republican pollster Frank Luntz has denounced Paul's supporters as "the equivalent of crabgrass . . . not the grass you want, and it spreads faster than the real stuff." And conservative syndicated columnist Mona Charen said out loud what many campaign reporters have no doubt been thinking all along: "He might make a dandy new leader for the Branch Davidians."

When conservatives feel comfortable mocking the victims gunned down by Clinton-era attorney general Janet Reno's FBI (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Federal+Bureau+of+Investigation?tid=informline) in Waco (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Waco?tid=informline), Tex., in 1993, it suggests that a complacent and increasingly authoritarian establishment feels threatened.
And little wonder. In the 1990s, conservative Republicans rose to power by relentlessly attacking Big Government. Yet the minute they took control of both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, they kicked out the jams on even a semblance of fiscal responsibility, signing off on the Medicare (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Medicare?tid=informline) prescription drug benefit and building literal and figurative bridges to nowhere. From 2001 to 2008, federal outlays will have grown by an estimated 29 percent in inflation-adjusted terms, according to the Office of Management and Budget (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Office+of+Management+and+Budget?tid=informline).

The biggest Big Government expansion during the Bush era is the one that Americans now despise most: the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Afghanistan?tid=informline), whose direct costs are already an estimated $800 billion, plus 4,000 American lives. Paul's steadfast bring-the-troops-home stance -- not just from Iraq, but Korea and Japan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Japan?tid=informline) as well -- is the major engine powering his grass-roots success as ostensibly antiwar Democrats in the majority can't or won't do anything on Capitol Hill (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Capitol+Hill?tid=informline).

But if war were the only answer for his improbable run, why Ron Paul instead of the perennial peacenik Dennis Kucinich (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Dennis+Kucinich?tid=informline), the Democratic congressman from Ohio (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Ohio?tid=informline) whose apparent belief in UFOs is only slightly less kooky than his belief in the efficacy of socialized health care?

Part of the reason is Republican muscle memory. Paul's "freedom message" is the direct descendant of Barry Goldwater (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Barry+Goldwater?tid=informline)'s once-dominant GOP philosophy of libertarianism (which Ronald Reagan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Ronald+Reagan?tid=informline) described in a 1975 Reason magazine interview as "the very heart and soul of conservatism"). But that tradition has been under a decade-long assault by religious-right moralists, neoconservative interventionists and a governing coalition that has learned to love Medicare expansion and appropriations pork.

So Paul's challenge represents a not-so-lonely GOP revival of unabashed libertarianism. All his major Republican competitors want to double down on Bush's wars; none is stressing any limited-government themes, apart from half-hearted promises to prune pork and tinker on the margins of Social Security.

College kids (a key bloc of Paul's support) have seen no recent evidence that the GOP has anything to do with libertarianism. Yet there's no reason to believe that Democrats will do anything useful about the government intrusion that so many young people abhor: the drug war, federal bans on same-*** marriage, online poker prohibitions, open-ended deployments in Iraq.

This is the mile-wide gap in the Maginot line of "serious" Washington politics. Undergrads aren't the only ones weary of war and moralizing, and more interested in exploring new frontiers of technology and culture than in heeding the stale noise coming from inside the Beltway.

More than at any other time over the past two decades, Americans are hungering for the politics and freewheeling fun of libertarianism. And with the dreary prospect of a Giuliani vs. Clinton death match in 2008, that hunger is likely to grow even faster than the size of the federal government or the casualty toll in Iraq. Ron Paul may lose next year's battle -- though not without a memorable fight -- but the laissez-faire agitators he has helped energize will find themselves at the leading edge of American politics and culture for years to come.

gillespie@reason.com
matt.welch@reason.com
Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch are editors at Reason magazine.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/23/AR2007112301299.html

vryhpyammoadded
11-28-2007, 09:31 AM
Ron Paul may lose next year's battle -- though not without a memorable fight -- but the laissez-faire agitators he has helped energize will find themselves at the leading edge of American politics and culture for years to come.
I couldn’t agree more. The states need to bring down the bloated federal beast, feast on its carcass and reinvigorate this nation.
History will repeat itself I’m certain. The next administration will resemble the Carter admin or worse, the economy will stagnate and federal meddling in everyone’s pocketbooks and minds will rise.

The party that latches onto a crash, across the board, federal cash diet and a reversal of meddling after this period will win big. Everyone loves a tax revolt! Well, accepting entitlement junkies, greedy politicos and their business partners.
Today the people just seem too focused on melodrama, building a better federal sugar daddy and improving the thought police to want what’s really needed; a smaller, less meddling and corrupt Fed with powers more dispersed among the state and local governments.

Reagan was absolutely correct about the heart and soul and I predict the RINO’s are going to learn this the hard way.

Alien life form… Branch Davidian’s LOL, I almost want Ron Paul to win now just to see the looks on all the pundits, analysts, news anchors and other politician’s faces. The political world will think us insane. Love it!

2Sheds_Jackson
11-28-2007, 10:37 AM
I have to agree - I like to see the shake-up. But I still have no idea what a "libertarian" is supposed to be. So far as I can tell, it's somebody who picks positions off an a-la-carte menu without intellectually committing to the consistent application of the principles underpinning those positions. The movement itself is fine - it's pushing lots of ideas I like, and I hope it can provide some much-needed tugging back to the right. However, I'm not so crazy about Ron Paul. After visiting his website and looking at his position bullet points there's no way I could drink that kool-aid.

gaijinsamurai
11-28-2007, 03:47 PM
Just out of curiosity, 2_Sheds, which Ron Paul positions are you in opposition to?
(by the way, I don't agree with him on everything either, but I am still leaning towards supporting him)

Rictor
11-28-2007, 03:53 PM
I have to agree - I like to see the shake-up. But I still have no idea what a "libertarian" is supposed to be. So far as I can tell, it's somebody who picks positions off an a-la-carte menu without intellectually committing to the consistent application of the principles underpinning those positions. The movement itself is fine - it's pushing lots of ideas I like, and I hope it can provide some much-needed tugging back to the right. However, I'm not so crazy about Ron Paul. After visiting his website and looking at his position bullet points there's no way I could drink that kool-aid.

Libertarian, as I understand it, is one who believes that

1. If a law can conceivably be eliminated, it should be. If it can't, make it as local as possible.
2. A person's money and possessions are his own. His life and dignity are his own, and no person, group or state has a right to infringe on these.
3. The state is a necessary evil, but should be kept small and powerless by all means necessary.

Essentially "live and let live".

Murph
11-28-2007, 03:58 PM
Libertarian, as I understand it, is one who believes that

1. If a law can conceivably be eliminated, it should be. If it can't, make it as local as possible.
2. A person's money and possessions are his own. His life and dignity are his own, and no person, group or state has a right to infringe on these.
3. The state is a necessary evil, but should be kept small and powerless by all means necessary.

Essentially "live and let live".

Sounds like that's barely a step above anarchy.
"Here's my toy government, it likes to pretend it can do anything."
Somehow I don't see that happening in a post globalization world.

seraosha
11-28-2007, 04:05 PM
I just can't shake the "Ron Paul is Ross Perot" feeling.

I know, I know, apples and oranges...but something resonates on the high frequency band that causes spontaneous deja vu in laboratory rats.

Hollis
11-28-2007, 04:56 PM
This is sort of my view. Once long ago (60's) there was a conservative group called Young Americans for Freedom (YAF). There was a draft, there was a war.

YAF was very pro-capitalist orientated. Problem was the draft and war. They developed a thought, I am not sure who was all involved that, the government did not have the right to coerce people, less government was best and government should not interfere with business.

Advantage was they could now oppose the draft without the conflict of being conservatives during a hot war against communism. In a way, yes they promoted a higher form of anarchy.

My concern with Libertarians is that they are as if Libertarianism is a religion, that they are believers before anything else.

Libertarians basically promote a free market system where government does not involve itself in it at all.

All public services should be contracted out to private business'.

dimasorokine
11-28-2007, 05:03 PM
Libertarian, as I understand it, is one who believes that

1. If a law can conceivably be eliminated, it should be. If it can't, make it as local as possible.
2. A person's money and possessions are his own. His life and dignity are his own, and no person, group or state has a right to infringe on these.
3. The state is a necessary evil, but should be kept small and powerless by all means necessary.

Essentially "live and let live".

Anarchy with some guidelines attached I guess...this would be the best type of system to live in for the indevidual. Unfortunetly, thats some scary sh*t for those in power, or anyone with power for that matter.

-Dima

SOG
11-28-2007, 05:21 PM
Libertarians basically promote a free market system where government does not involve itself in it at all.

All public services should be contracted out to private business'.

the first line is scary to me. i actually enjoy the government sticking its nose into business making sure powerhouse corporations play by some rules. splitting huge companies up etc, IF the government would actually do it well and enforce it.

as for public services, i agree to some extent, but disagree on others. the employees would be more apt to oversight, doing there job right, constant contract competition and review of procedures to make them more efficient due to competition. however, what is to keep city officials from getting in bed with such powerful companies and screwing tax payers? absolutely nothing. so in the end it is a fine balance and both ways have their ups and downs.

personally i would rather deal with a long established public entity than a private corporation even though the public entity is more ****e to beuracracy.

as to the whole libertarian idea, it sounds like a throwback attempt to regain what we once were when founded like some sort of historical "everything was wonderful" dream, but i believe it to be impractical based on what we are today.

todays government/business/cities i view as a vicious circle but one that constantly comes around and checks what others are doing. a chaotic form of a business and accountability but, one that works. and quite frankly, i think we've been like that from day one.

Yellowbelly
11-28-2007, 07:41 PM
the first line is scary to me. i actually enjoy the government sticking its nose into business making sure powerhouse corporations play by some rules. splitting huge companies up etc, IF the government would actually do it well and enforce it.

as for public services, i agree to some extent, but disagree on others. the employees would be more apt to oversight, doing there job right, constant contract competition and review of procedures to make them more efficient due to competition. however, what is to keep city officials from getting in bed with such powerful companies and screwing tax payers? absolutely nothing. so in the end it is a fine balance and both ways have their ups and downs.

personally i would rather deal with a long established public entity than a private corporation even though the public entity is more ****e to beuracracy.

as to the whole libertarian idea, it sounds like a throwback attempt to regain what we once were when founded like some sort of historical "everything was wonderful" dream, but i believe it to be impractical based on what we are today.

todays government/business/cities i view as a vicious circle but one that constantly comes around and checks what others are doing. a chaotic form of a business and accountability but, one that works. and quite frankly, i think we've been like that from day one.

The reason why we HAVE those massive corporations is the government sticking its nose in the first place. AT&T would have been nothing if the government didn't subsidize it and make unfair and unconstitutional rules so it could beat out the competition. That's why America is still 2 years behind the rest of the world in phone technology. Basically what I'm saying is, Monopolies CANNOT naturally exist. If there were fair rules, no government playing favorites, then there will ALWAYS be natural healthy competition because if the service is bad, then we find a new place to go to.

The libertarian idea isn't impractical when the government becomes dangerous, won't pay the bills back, which threatens our economy.

gaijinsamurai
11-28-2007, 09:05 PM
I believe in a lot of the Libertarian philisophy, but not all of it.
As someone who works in parole & probation, I lean towards the belief that most illegal drugs should be legalized, (with the exception of meth and possibly heroin), but the people who abuse them should not expect the rest of us to pay for their poor decision making.
However, I can see the flip side, where the results of their abuse does effect the community as a whole. I also see the overall benefit of having tax dollar-funded treatment programs, halfway houses, and other assistance which are things commonly championed by liberals but targeted by fiscal and social conservatives.

afreu
11-28-2007, 09:27 PM
Establish the night watchman state right now and watch how the West goes down. The wealth and stability of western societies is based on a strong state. The problem we're facing in recent years is that societies have to face problems which can not be handled by single governments/states alone anymore. This requires new forms of governance, perhaps with the state in a different role but not without the state at all.

Hollis
11-28-2007, 11:32 PM
I believe in a lot of the Libertarian philisophy, but not all of it.



They have some good points, But... I tend to almost think of them as a belief system.

Build a better system you will build a better man. Sort of thinking, the communist believed that too. Every system has the same common weakness.......... People.

Ordie
11-28-2007, 11:56 PM
If you want to go to Libertarian-ville.

Visit Pahrump, Nevada

martinexsquaddie
11-29-2007, 03:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

put the cat among the pigeons:0

libertarians tend to be college kids with the expectations of a good job living in a state with rule of law and an non corrupt military and the whole infrastructure of a high tech state. making sure the waters safe to drink and stuff they buy won't kill them

Peiper_76
11-29-2007, 02:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

put the cat among the pigeons:0

libertarians tend to be college kids with the expectations of a good job living in a state with rule of law and an non corrupt military and the whole infrastructure of a high tech state. making sure the waters safe to drink and stuff they buy won't kill them


Apart from your very strange characterization of what a libertarian expects politically (yours sounds very statist), I object to your generalization of libertarians as "tending" to be hypocritical college kids.

Libertarianism, historically "classical liberalism" (distinguished from modern "liberalism"), was the prevalent philosophy of the American Revolution. Great minds such as Locke, Smith, Voltaire, Mill, Nozick, Jefferson, von Mises, Rothbard, Friedman, Hayek, and Rand, among others, were proponents of this very developed philosophy. One cannot knowledgeably discuss modern political theory without, at least, a basic understanding of classical liberalism.

In addition, the link you have cited is not representative of libertarian philosophy. Indeed, to many recognized libertarian theorists and in the face of the development of libertarianism, the term "libertarian-socialist" represents a contradiction.

[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism ]
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism ]
[ http://cato.org/ ]
[ http://www.mises.org/ ]

Shellshock1918
11-29-2007, 02:43 PM
I think it should be noted that the Libertarian party and libertarianism are two different things.

Conservatism is a right-wing libertarian ideology. Socialism/Marxism, is a left-wing authoritarian ideology.

Murph
11-29-2007, 04:52 PM
:sarcasm: Those pesky college kids! They're always supporting someone's cause. :/sarcasm:

Seriously, you can say "College Students support X political posistion" for basically anything. I love it!