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Alael
11-28-2007, 01:48 PM
Some articles from International Herald Tribune:



Riot police in France on alert for firearms
By Katrin Bennhold Published: November 27, 2007


VILLIERS-LE-BEL, France: Dodging rocks and projectiles, the police lined the streets of this tense suburb Tuesday where angry youths have vowed to seek revenge for the deaths of two teenagers who died in a collision with a police car.

The town, where rioting flared Sunday night after the accident and escalated Monday night, saw incidents of rock throwing by youths Tuesday but appeared mostly calm in the hours after nightfall. In the neighboring town of Sarcelles, at least one police officer was wounded by a Molotov cocktail. Seven arrests were made after minor skirmishes.

Unrest spread to the southern city of Toulouse, where 10 cars and a library went up in flames, the police said, according to an Associated Press report.

The mood remained tense in the northern suburbs of Paris, however, because of the appearance of shotguns in the hands of a small number of rioters - a rare sight in the last major outbreak of suburban unrest, in 2005.

Police union officials had warned earlier Tuesday that the violence was escalating into urban guerrilla warfare. More than 80 officers have been wounded so far - four of them as a result of gunfire - and the rage was still simmering Tuesday. Inside the City Hall of Villiers-le-Bel, a group of visiting mayors appealed for calm while police officers dodged rocks outside in the afternoon.


"We are sitting targets," said Sophie Bar, a local police officer who stood guard outside City Hall. "They were throwing rocks at us and it was impossible to see where they came from. They just came raining over the roof."

The violence was triggered by the deaths of two teenagers on a motorbike who were killed in a crash with a police car Sunday night. The scene, with angry youths targeting the police mostly with firebombs, rocks and other projectiles, was reminiscent of three weeks of rioting in 2005.

But senior police officials warned that the violence was more intense this time.

"Things have changed since 2005," said Joachim Masanet, secretary general of the police wing of the UNSA trade union. "We have crossed a red line. When these kids aim their guns at police officers, they want to kill them. They are no longer afraid to shoot a policeman. We are only on the second day since the accident, and already they are shooting guns at the police."

Some young men stood by the charred timbers of the town's police station, Tuesday laughing and surveying the damage.

Cem, 18, of Turkish origin, declined to give his name because he feared police reprisals. But he and his friend Karim, of Algerian descent, said they both had participated in rioting over the past two days.

"That's just the beginning," Cem said. "This is a war. There is no mercy. We want two cops dead."

"The police brought this on themselves," Karim added. "They will regret it."

Six officers hurt in the clashes Monday were in serious condition, according to Francis Debuire, a police union official. Four were wounded by gunfire, including one who lost an eye and another who suffered a shattered shoulder.

The biggest risk, the police say, is that the violence will spread. In 2005, unrest cascaded through more than 300 towns, leaving 10,000 cars burned and 4,700 people arrested.

As night fell in Villiers-le-Bel, the anxiety was evident. Strangers warned people to hide their portable telephones because youths were snatching them on the street. People hurried to their homes, while some gathered in knots on street corners. Police helicopters circling public housing developments spotted stockpiles of rocks stacked along the roofs.

Naim Masoud, 39, a teaching assistant in Villiers-le-Bel, said that, in her school, even 8-year-old children talked about racism and discrimination by the police.

"It will take a lot more than riot police to cure this neighborhood," she said. "These children feel like foreigners. It is inexcusable what they are doing, but the seeds are deep."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/europe/france.php#end_main


In French suburbs, same rage, but new tactics
By Elaine Sciolino Published: November 27, 2007


PARIS: Two years after France's immigrant suburbs exploded in rage, the rituals and acts of resentment have reappeared with an eerie sameness: roving gangs clashing with riot police forces, the government appealing for calm, residents complaining that they are ignored.

And while the scale of the unrest of the past few days does not yet compare with the three-week convulsion in hundreds of suburbs and towns in 2005, a chilling new factor makes it, in some sense, more menacing. The onetime rock throwers and car burners have taken up hunting shotguns and turned them on the police.

More than 100 officers have been wounded, several of them seriously, according to the police. Thirty were hit with buckshot and pellets from shotguns, and one of the wounded was hit with a type of bullet used to kill large game, Patrice Ribeiro, a police spokesman, said in a telephone interview. One of the officers lost an eye; another's shoulder was shattered by gunfire.

It is legal to own a shotgun in France — as long as the owner has a license — and police circles were swirling with rumors that the bands of youths were procuring more weapons.

"This is a real guerrilla war," Ribeiro told RTL radio, warning that the police, who have struggled to avoid excessive force, will not be fired upon indefinitely without responding.

The police have made more than 30 arrests but have been restrained in controlling the violence, using tear gas to disperse the bands of young people and firing paint balls to identify people for possible arrests later.

The prefecture of the police in the Val d'Oise area, where most of the violence has occurred, said Tuesday night that there were no reported injuries among civilians that could be linked to the police.

The events of the past three days, set off by the deaths of two teenagers whose minibike collided with a police vehicle on Sunday, make clear that the underlying causes of frustration and anger — particularly among unemployed, undereducated youths, mostly the offspring of Arab and African immigrants — remain the same.

"We have heard promise after promise, but nothing has been done in the suburbs since the last riots, nothing," said François Pupponi, the Socialist mayor of Sarcelles, which has been struck by the violence, in an interview. "The suburbs are like tinderboxes. You have people in terrible social circumstances, plus all the rage, plus all the hate, plus all the rumors, and all you need is one spark to set them on fire."

On Tuesday, there were the first signs of the violence spreading beyond the Paris region when a dozen cars were set afire in the southern city of Toulouse.

In the wake of the unrest in 2005, the government of then-President Jacques Chirac (with Nicolas Sarkozy, now the president, as the tough, law-and-order interior minister) announced measures to improve life in the suburbs, including extra money for housing, schools and neighborhood associations, as well as counseling and job training for unemployed youths. None has gone very far.

At that time, Sarkozy alienated large numbers of inhabitants in the troubled ethnic pockets of France, but afterward reverted to a low-key approach, which he has maintained ever since. During his presidential campaign, he stayed away from the troubled suburbs, aware that his presence could inflame public opinion against him.

In his six months as president, he has largely focused on injecting new life into France's flaccid economy through creating jobs and lowering taxes and consumer prices.

His most notable initiative in dealing with youth crime has been punitive: the passage of a law last July that required a minimum sentence for repeat offenders and in many cases allowed minors between 16 and 18 years old to be tried and sentenced as adults.

Since September, Fadela Amara, his outspoken junior minister charged with drawing up a policy for the suburbs, has been holding town hall meetings throughout France in preparation for what is to be a "Marshall Plan" for the suburbs. Her proposals are scheduled to be made public in January.

"We've been talking about a Marshall Plan for the suburbs since the early 1990s," said Adil Jazouli, a sociologist who focuses on the suburbs. "We don't need poetry. We don't need reflection. We need money."

After he returns from China on Wednesday morning, Sarkozy plans to visit a seriously wounded senior policeman at a hospital near the northern Paris suburb of Villiers-le-Bel.

It was in Villiers-le-Bel on Sunday afternoon that the deaths of two teenagers identified as Moushin, 15, and Larimi, 16, occurred, the event that set off the latest unrest. The teenagers were riding without helmets on a minibike that collided with a police car; rumors that the police had caused the accident elicited calls for revenge.

The crash was reminiscent of the electrocution deaths in another Paris suburb in October 2005 of two teenagers, who, according to some accounts, were running away from police. That event set off the worst civil unrest in France in four decades, plunging the country into what Chirac called "a profound malaise."

But Sarkozy, still reeling from huge transit strikes and student protests throughout France this month, is unlikely to use the current unrest as a vehicle to turn introspective or vent his rage too loudly at those he once called "scum."

In 2005, he vowed to clean out young troublemakers from one Paris suburb with a Kärcher, the brand name of a high-powered hose used to wash off graffiti; when he pledged in another suburb that year to rid poor suburban neighborhoods of their "scum," he was pelted with bottles and rocks.

On Tuesday, Prime Minister François Fillon told Parliament that the clashes were "unacceptable, intolerable, incomprehensible," and he pledged punishment for the offenders in the affected suburbs.

"Those who shoot at policemen, those who beat a police officer almost to death, are criminals and must be treated as such," he said, adding, "We will do everything so that tonight there is a maximum security presence."

Under heavy security on Tuesday night, Fillon visited Villiers-le-Bel, where the two youths had died, in what he called a show of support for the police and firefighters. About 1,000 police officers were deployed there.

Critics of the Sarkozy government complain that many areas in the suburbs are without a police presence, and that the only time there is a show of security is after violence erupts.

"Sarkozy promised to send more police to the suburbs, but in so many places there are fewer police than there were two years ago," said Mohamed Hamidi, the French founder of Bondy Blog, a popular political blog created in the Paris suburb of Bondy after the outbreak of violence in 2005. "He didn't keep his word. Who suffers from all the violence and the burning cars? The people who live in these neighborhoods."

In Villiers-le-Bel on Tuesday night, the atmosphere was tense, with white police trucks and antiriot police officers on the streets. Earlier in the day, about 300 people, including children, marched silently in memory of the two dead teenagers.

At a bakery on a small plaza in town, Habib Friaa, the baker, mourned their deaths, especially that of Larimi, who had started an apprenticeship with him two months ago.

"Baking was his passion," Friaa said. "He was a courageous young man, someone who had hope."

Ariane Bernard contributed reporting from Paris, and Basil Katz from Villiers-le-Bel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/28/europe/28france.php?page=1


Paris suburb riots called 'a lot worse' than in 2005
News Analysis
By Elaine Sciolino Published: November 27, 2007




PARIS: The rituals and acts of rage have an eerie sameness to them: roving gangs of angry youths clashing with the riot police in France's edgy suburbs, the government appealing for calm, local officials and residents complaining that their problems are ignored.

Two years after an orgy of violence in which rioters in more than 300 suburbs and towns torched cars, trashed businesses and ambushed the riot police and firefighters, Villiers-le-Bel and several nearby suburbs of Paris similarly have erupted in violence and destruction.

In one sense, the unrest seems to be more menacing than during the early days of the three weeks of rioting in 2005. Then, the youth seemed disorganized, their destruction largely caused by rock-throwing and arson and aimed at the closest and easiest targets, like cars. This time, hunting shotguns, as well as gasoline bombs and rocks, have been turned on the police.

"From what our colleagues on the scene tell us, this is a situation that is a lot worse than what we saw in 2005," Patrice Ribeiro, a police officer and senior union official, told RTL radio Tuesday. He added, "A line was crossed last night, that is to say, they used weapons, they used weapons and fired on the police. This is a real guerrilla war."

Ribeiro warned that the police, who have struggled to avoid excessive force, would not be fired upon indefinitely without responding.

More than 80 police officers already have been wounded the clashes, several of them seriously, Ribeiro said later by telephone. Thirty of them were hit with pellets from shotguns, and one of the wounded was hit with a type of bullet used to kill large game, he added. It is legal to own a shotgun in France - as long as the owner has a license - and police circles were swirling with rumors that the bands of youth were procuring more shotguns.

It is impossible to predict whether the violence will continue and spread to the much larger cluster of Parisian suburbs around the town of Seine-Saint-Denis, the area where violence was concentrated in 2005, or to the rest of the country.

But the events of the past three days make clear that the underlying causes of frustration and anger - particularly among unemployed, undereducated youth, mostly the offspring of Arab and African immigrants - remain the same.

"We have heard promise after promise, but nothing has been done in the suburbs since the last riots, nothing," said François Pupponi, the Socialist mayor of Sarcelles, which has been struck by violence. "The suburbs are like tinderboxes. You have people in terrible social circumstances, plus all the rage, plus all the hate, plus all the rumors and all you need is one spark to set them on fire."

Indeed, after the unrest in 2005, the government of then-President Jacques Chirac - with Nicolas Sarkozy, now president, as the tough law-and-order interior minister - announced measures to improve life in the suburbs, including extra money for housing, schools and neighborhood associations and counseling and job training for unemployed youths. None has gone very far.

At that time, Sarkozy alienated a huge swath of inhabitants in the troubled ethnic pockets of France, but afterward reverted to a low-key approach, which he has maintained ever since. During his presidential campaign, he stayed away from France's suburbs, aware that his presence would only inflame public opinion against him.

In his six months as president, he largely has focused on injecting new life into France's flaccid economy through job creation and lowering taxes and consumer prices. His most notable initiative in dealing with youth crime has been punitive: the passage of a law last July that required a minimum sentence for repeat offenders and in many cases allowed minors between 16 and 18 years of age to be tried and sentenced as adults.

Since September, Fadela Amara, his outspoken junior minister who has been given the task of drawing up a policy for the suburbs, has been holding town hall meetings throughout France in preparation for what is to be a "Marshall Plan" for the suburbs. Her proposals are scheduled to be unveiled in January.

"We've been talking about a Marshall Plan for the suburbs since the early 1990s," said Adil Jazouli, a sociologist who focuses on the suburbs. "We don't need poetry. We don't need reflection. We need money."

After he returns home from China, Sarkozy on Wednesday plans to visit a seriously wounded senior police officers at a hospital near the northern Paris suburb of Villiers-le-Bel.

It was there that on Sunday afternoon the deaths of two teenagers identified as Moushin, 15, and Larimi, 16, occurred, the event that sparked the latest unrest. The teenagers were riding without helmets in a mini-motorbike that crashed into a police car on Sunday.

The accident was reminiscent of the electrocution deaths of two teenagers in another Paris suburb in October 2005, who, according to some accounts, were running away from the police. That event triggered the worst civil unrest in France in four decades.

But Sarkozy, still reeling from massive transit strikes and student protests this month throughout France, is unlikely to use the current unrest as a vehicle to turn introspective or vent his rage too loudly at those he once called "thugs."

In 2005, he vowed to clean out young troublemakers from one Paris suburb with a Kärcher, the brand name of a high-powered hose used to wash off graffiti; when he pledged in one suburb that year to rid poor suburban neighborhoods of their "thugs," he was pelted with bottles and rocks.

Ariane Bernard contributed reporting from Paris and Basil Katz from Villiers-le-Bel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/11/27/europe/riots.php?page=1


related to this post:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124489

AROUETLJ
11-28-2007, 04:09 PM
Shows you how oh so informed the media are. The name is Mouhsin, not Moushin.

Mastermind
11-28-2007, 05:50 PM
FTA"At that time, Sarkozy alienated a huge swath of inhabitants in the troubled ethnic pockets of France, but afterward reverted to a low-key approach, which he has maintained ever since. During his presidential campaign, he stayed away from France's suburbs, aware that his presence would only inflame public opinion against him."

Hahaha...and how many of his opponents were swaggering through the ghettos of Muslim control?

That's the very heart of the problem, now then, isn't it? The Muslims have gained supremacy...nay soverignty! France has ceded an entire multi million of their citizens to forces that desire nothing less than a France under Sharia law. The Nazis accomplished this very thing with gun powder and Stukas...it was called Vichy. To their credit, the Muslims or the "Youths" have accomplished it with a few pints of gasoline and the unity and determination brought by Allah.

I suppose the people of France will awaken the day the gasoline art is used in the Louvre. But, then what?

dimasorokine
11-28-2007, 06:01 PM
Mastermind, this is western style "democracy" - a perfect balance between tolerance, oppression and intolerance. The Muslims will continue to burn cars once in a while - while staying poor and the French will continue to tolerate them...

-Dima

Mastermind
11-28-2007, 06:05 PM
Yah...you are, in all probability, correct.

AROUETLJ
11-28-2007, 06:41 PM
FTA"At that time, Sarkozy alienated a huge swath of inhabitants in the troubled ethnic pockets of France, but afterward reverted to a low-key approach, which he has maintained ever since. During his presidential campaign, he stayed away from France's suburbs, aware that his presence would only inflame public opinion against him."

Hahaha...and how many of his opponents were swaggering through the ghettos of Muslim control?

That's the very heart of the problem, now then, isn't it? The Muslims have gained supremacy...nay soverignty! France has ceded an entire multi million of their citizens to forces that desire nothing less than a France under Sharia law. The Nazis accomplished this very thing with gun powder and Stukas...it was called Vichy. To their credit, the Muslims or the "Youths" have accomplished it with a few pints of gasoline and the unity and determination brought by Allah.

I suppose the people of France will awaken the day the gasoline art is used in the Louvre. But, then what?

Er, a good chunk of these "youths" are not Muslim, but they're black. You're not suggesting a return to segregation are you?

dimasorokine
11-28-2007, 06:41 PM
I have to say though, it makes me quite angry and I would not want it for any country I live in...unfortunetly France is one of the top countries I'm considering moving to within the next year or two.

-Dima

Calanen
11-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Er, a good chunk of these "youths" are not Muslim, but they're black.

You've taken a survey?

CPL Trevoga
11-28-2007, 08:41 PM
Hmm... Note to myself:"Do not import guys from Afrique du Nord to work my plantation."

Mr.K
11-29-2007, 12:09 AM
I have to say though, it makes me quite angry and I would not want it for any country I live in...unfortunetly France is one of the top countries I'm considering moving to within the next year or two.

-Dima

You want to live there? Man you're crazy. You will be constantly reminded how putin is a "facho" and about the struggle of the chechen people, + unemployment, and constant strikes. People are more rude than in North America.
Well ok food is better and everything is more expensive.

Mr.K
11-29-2007, 12:13 AM
FTA"At that time, Sarkozy alienated a huge swath of inhabitants in the troubled ethnic pockets of France, but afterward reverted to a low-key approach, which he has maintained ever since. During his presidential campaign, he stayed away from France's suburbs, aware that his presence would only inflame public opinion against him."

Hahaha...and how many of his opponents were swaggering through the ghettos of Muslim control?

That's the very heart of the problem, now then, isn't it? The Muslims have gained supremacy...nay soverignty! France has ceded an entire multi million of their citizens to forces that desire nothing less than a France under Sharia law. The Nazis accomplished this very thing with gun powder and Stukas...it was called Vichy. To their credit, the Muslims or the "Youths" have accomplished it with a few pints of gasoline and the unity and determination brought by Allah.

I suppose the people of France will awaken the day the gasoline art is used in the Louvre. But, then what?

The alienation was done far before Sarkozy came to power. And what unites the urban youth is not Allah but poverety and a feeling that there is no way out. Of course burning your hard-working neighbor's car , or school, or public library is dead stupid.

dimasorokine
11-29-2007, 01:11 AM
You want to live there? Man you're crazy. You will be constantly reminded how putin is a "facho" and about the struggle of the chechen people, + unemployment, and constant strikes. People are more rude than in North America.
Well ok food is better and everything is more expensive.

I'll have to try out the different countries I guess ;) But mainly, I want to move for the georaphical location (close to Russia, close to Africa, close to a whole bunch of European countries)

-Dima

Ariha
11-29-2007, 04:45 AM
The Muslims will continue to burn cars once in a while - while staying poor and the French will continue to tolerate them...

-Dima

The Muslims can wage wars in odd manners, but they are not dumb. The riots are opening moves, the demographics play against the French, the day the muslims wil feel they have reached the "critical mass" we´ll see if they are going to "tolerate" the French in French soil.

Ariha
11-29-2007, 04:49 AM
Er, a good chunk of these "youths" are not Muslim, but they're black. You're not suggesting a return to segregation are you?

The fact they are black (race) doesn´t mean they can not be muslims (sect). The black inmigration in France comes from the belt of African countries south of the Sahara, former french colonies, and it happens that they are, in a very significant percentage, muslums.

Telmar
11-29-2007, 04:58 AM
You've taken a survey?

Have you?

On the motorcycle that was hit by the police car, there was one Arab and one Black. 50/50.

These are extremely severe community riots that include two out of three of Frances main non-european immigration groups. The riots are 100% linked to immigration issues, but calling it "muslim" is lack of information or trying to forward an agenda.

Russian_dude
11-29-2007, 05:08 AM
I think these "youfs" need to be sent on a "fact finding" mission to a REAL "bled" somewhere in Algeria. They sure would be glad to be back home in France after that.

Bitogno
11-29-2007, 06:16 AM
I think these "youfs" need to be sent on a "fact finding" mission to a REAL "bled" somewhere in Algeria. They sure would be glad to be back home in France after that.
Sure that send these youngs should be sent to poor countries so that they could have a better idea of the chance they have. But also sure that the people posting about these youngs should be send to the banlieues to see what it is to be always asked by the police their identities ( except for the whites ), to be always rejected by firms when they apply for a job ( whatever diploma they have ), to be arrested when they steal an apple ( which is normal ) and to see that some people at power aren't arrested when they do worst ( which is not ) even voting their own amnisty, and the list is long. It would put some lead in the head, as we say in France, and not only to the youngs of the banlieues.

Russian_dude
11-29-2007, 08:05 AM
If you steal... you are a thief, why should the police let you go? First an apple... then a car.

French "banlieu" are not as bad as 80% of the worlds cities. In fact all their "dumpiness" is the result of the misuse by the locals.

Most of the "racaille" do not have much in the way of schooling, what, they think they deserve management positions? They walk into an interview dressed like thugs and speaking in bad French and expect to be hired???? No way.

The balieu people want things to fall out of the sky for them. It doesn't work this way.

Bitogno
11-29-2007, 08:43 AM
If you steal... you are a thief, why should the police let you go? First an apple... then a car.

French "banlieu" are not as bad as 80% of the worlds cities. In fact all their "dumpiness" is the result of the misuse by the locals.

Most of the "racaille" do not have much in the way of schooling, what, they think they deserve management positions? They walk into an interview dressed like thugs and speaking in bad French and expect to be hired???? No way.

The balieu people want things to fall out of the sky for them. It doesn't work this way.
I agree that if you steal police should be arresting you. But it as to be the same for every one not only the poor. Currently, in France, a lot polititians ( Sarkosy included ) are implicated in a lot of affairs ( try to find who paid for Sarkosy housework, and why Sarkosy, Royal, Holland didn't paid taxe on fortune ). More and more I hear people ( and not from banlieue, and not poor at all ) that ask why they should be honest when our polititians are thieves.
About work I have a few friends that are from immigration, with high level diploma and they have problem having appointments for job when white people don't, and if you come from banlieue it is worst.
If you read French have a look in newspapers at the ones that were arrested and jugged. Most of them were never arrested and most of them were working or students.
To finish, it is true that in the banlieues some people ( racaille if you wan't ) are degrading things but also it is true that the things that are not usable anymore due to normal use ( such as lifts ) are not fixed.

Russian_dude
11-29-2007, 08:57 AM
Ah, the chicken or egg... The lifts aren't fixed and the people riot OR the people riot and the lifts are not fixed.

Mastermind
11-29-2007, 09:09 AM
Have you?

On the motorcycle that was hit by the police car, there was one Arab and one Black. 50/50.

These are extremely severe community riots that include two out of three of Frances main non-european immigration groups. The riots are 100% linked to immigration issues, but calling it "muslim" is lack of information or trying to forward an agenda.
One Muslim and one black...so are you suggesting there are no black Muslims?

During the LA riots, the vast majority of people doing the looting across the city were hispanic and white. Of the people killed, the ones murdered were almost all whites, the ones killed by police were mostly black with a few hispanics.

In any riot, there are always a mix. But, the core that instigates the riot is usualy more monolithic in ethnicity. Once the mayhem begins, it naturally becomes a free-for-all. The thing that allowed the riot to spread throughout the city was the recall of police back to their stations by the Police Chief who also had an agenda...he was trying to demonstrate to the City Council, who had been blasting the police over Rodney King, what a city looks like with no police...the tactic was quite successful.

I think the present French situation has very much in common with the LA experience. If the government relenquishes a large portion of it's jurisdiction to radical or "special interest" control, there is usually only one path left open. The "shared power" systems eventually compete for more power. The chaos of a riot is exactly what is needed by the non-governemntal force.

Soon, you will hear of some sort of "negotiation" that will be called for to stop the riots. This is a sign of surrender by the city officiates. Negotiation means eventually settling for something you never would have agreed to if the pre-negotiation circumstances (i.e. The Riot) had not happened. The less powerful force always comes out of negotiations more powerful.

AROUETLJ
11-29-2007, 09:50 AM
Have you?

On the motorcycle that was hit by the police car, there was one Arab and one Black. 50/50.

These are extremely severe community riots that include two out of three of Frances main non-european immigration groups. The riots are 100% linked to immigration issues, but calling it "muslim" is lack of information or trying to forward an agenda.

OK, since I'm not French, let me trigger the flame war here:

For most of the foreign media, and most of the people in this board, it is fine to "deport" (deport? who? French citizens? Where? to their grandfather's country of origin?) Muslims, but not non-Muslim blacks. Am I correct or what? Non-European troublemaker immigrants to France are not just Muslims, but include: Romanian passport holders (the Rom/Gypsies), European non-EU citizens (Georgian drug-dealers aplenty), Christian black Africans, non-Muslim blacks, Muslim blacks, Muslim Maghrebins, and non-Muslim "ethnic minorities". So there you go. Many countries have got over the "it is fine to put the blame on blacks" complex, but are still in the "it is fine to put the blame on Muslims" phase, because one is politically unacceptable, while the other is perfectly fine.

So please, the thugs and scum and criminals are not just Muslims, and it's not a just a problem of Muslim culture vs. European culture, but of non-European culture vs European culture. But, seeing as we relinquished any sense of civilised behaviour in May 1968, I don't expect the situation to improve.

Lt. James Anderson
11-29-2007, 09:51 AM
France is too far gone to be saved.

Ludipipo
11-29-2007, 10:01 AM
France is too far gone to be saved.

..... QFTT

Dasein
11-29-2007, 10:02 AM
France is too far gone to be saved.

Many countries have dealt with similar issues with disenfranchised immigrant populations. What France is seeing is hardly unusual, so why do you say it is too far gone to be saved?

Lt. James Anderson
11-29-2007, 10:04 AM
Many countries have dealt with similar issues with disenfranchised immigrant populations. What France is seeing is hardly unusual, so why do you say it is too far gone to be saved?

Because you have already lost the war of numbers (demographics).
This is not just a temporary problem ... the things will only get worse with time.

Telmar
11-29-2007, 10:06 AM
One Muslim and one black...so are you suggesting there are no black Muslims?


I said an Arab and a Black. There are Black Muslims of course. If I recall, from 80% to 30% from country to country south of the Sahara.

I wanted to underline that this is no religious riot. The origins of the people are not important, or we would have to label a lot of ugly things that happened in Europe as "Christian" ideologies.



I think the present French situation has very much in common with the LA experience. If the government relenquishes a large portion of it's jurisdiction to radical or "special interest" control, there is usually only one path left open. The "shared power" systems eventually compete for more power. The chaos of a riot is exactly what is needed by the non-governemntal force.


You may be right. But it has not happened yet. France has not been too much plagued by home grown terrorists. As a matter of fact, for the moment it has one of the best records in this field.



Soon, you will hear of some sort of "negotiation" that will be called for to stop the riots. This is a sign of surrender by the city officiates. Negotiation means eventually settling for something you never would have agreed to if the pre-negotiation circumstances (i.e. The Riot) had not happened. The less powerful force always comes out of negotiations more powerful.


These latest riots are over since 48 hours now. A few people will be going to jail for some harder sentences than usual.

Guerrier_Franc
11-29-2007, 10:22 AM
I agree that if you steal police should be arresting you. But it as to be the same for every one not only the poor. Currently, in France, a lot polititians ( Sarkosy included ) are implicated in a lot of affairs ( try to find who paid for Sarkosy housework, and why Sarkosy, Royal, Holland didn't paid taxe on fortune ). More and more I hear people ( and not from banlieue, and not poor at all ) that ask why they should be honest when our polititians are thieves.
About work I have a few friends that are from immigration, with high level diploma and they have problem having appointments for job when white people don't, and if you come from banlieue it is worst.

Why so many people in the world want to come in France if there are so many racists in this country ??? :roll:




If you read French have a look in newspapers at the ones that were arrested and jugged. Most of them were never arrested and most of them were working or students.

Source ?


To finish, it is true that in the banlieues some people ( racaille if you wan't ) are degrading things but also it is true that the things that are not usable anymore due to normal use ( such as lifts ) are not fixed.


:roll:

Bitogno
11-29-2007, 10:28 AM
Why so many people in the world want to come in France if there are so many racists in this country ??? :roll:

Source ?

:roll:
The sources are Le Figaro and Le Monde.
And not so many people come to France ( immigration in England is more important ) even if there are so many racists because they have the choice between having nothing in their own country and having much more in France.

Guerrier_Franc
11-29-2007, 10:29 AM
Because you have already lost the war of numbers (demographics).

source ?



This is not just a temporary problem ... the things will only get worse with time.

History is never written...

Guerrier_Franc
11-29-2007, 11:08 AM
The sources are Le Figaro and Le Monde.

Where are these sources ? articles ?

sarkozy said the contrary.


And not so many people come to France

is it a joke ?

300 000 immigrants come to live in France each year

one French ambassador in Algeria said some month ago
there are 350 000 algerian without paper who live in France.
Add irregulars who come from all others countries.....






( immigration in England is more important )

Maybe i don't know,
But i know England has also "some" problems with integration.
I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) immigration in England is mainly economical,
In france since the family reunification in 1975 immigration is mainly family
only 7% immigrants come in France to work.
It's a huge difference.

It's in french
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2d047_immigration-7-seulement-viennent-po

Bitogno
11-29-2007, 11:43 AM
Where are these sources ? articles ?

sarkozy said the contrary.

is it a joke ?

300 000 immigrants come to live in France each year

one French ambassador in Algeria said some month ago
there are 350 000 algerian without paper who live in France.
Add irregulars who come from all others countries.....

Maybe i don't know,
But i know England has also "some" problems with integration.
I believe (correct me if i'm wrong) immigration in England is mainly economical,
In france since the family reunification in 1975 immigration is mainly family
only 7% immigrants come in France to work.
It's a huge difference.

It's in french
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2d047_immigration-7-seulement-viennent-po


http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3224,36-983697@51-982356,0.html
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualites/2007/11/28/01001-20071128ARTFIG00259-lexter-ans-chomeur-et-emeutier.php

When I say not so many it is comparing to England :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5273356.stm
And In this article they say 600000 from EU, they don't talk about other countries. But I believe it is true that, in England they come to work.

In France according to Insee : http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/chifcle_fiche.asp?ref_id=NATCCI02141&tab_id=498&souspop=4
It is far from the number of people coming to England.

To finish a few quotations from Nicolas Sarkosy :
_ " Je veux dire à ce jeune des quartiers, s'il veut s'en sortir que nous lui trouverons une formation, un contrat, une rémunération et un emploi. "
We are still waiting.

_ " Moi je ne serai jamais du côté des fraudeurs, parce que la fraude c'est l'impôt payé par les plus pauvres. "
Except when he has to pay taxes on wealth.

Mastermind
11-29-2007, 03:16 PM
Many countries have dealt with similar issues with disenfranchised immigrant populations. What France is seeing is hardly unusual, so why do you say it is too far gone to be saved?
We have the same circumstance in the USA with Mexican illegals and immigrants who refuse to assimilate.

The number game involves a ratio between the legitimate inhabitants of a "place" and the illegitimate inhabitants. That number, according to some studies I have read although have no time right now to support with sources, is about 5%. The basis for this number is the science of politics and the voting block power that percentage represents. 12.5% is an absolute that simply can not be politically ignored. Between 5% and 12.5%, the trends begin in regard to politicians paying particular attention to the specific demographic. Laws begin to be passed as the pandering for votes begins. You see this in the USA with the huge over-influence the black minority has...as it turns out more than 80% of blacks vote democrat...yet blacks only represent 14% of the US population. Why are they so influential at such small numbers...because they tend to be monolithic in their voting habits. Although, this has worked against them in terms of power within the party itself due to the predictability of that constituency...they can safely be ignored by both parties since they do not effectively "switch vote"...that is, they are a safe political bet. However, the pandering that went on to build that "safe vote" resulted in enormous political changes in the US...Affirmative action, welfare, protected racial status, minority contractor advantages, educational advantages, etc.

The same thing happened with the Irish, the Italians and the Jewish to some degree (more or less)....the Asians are just now, belatedly, coming into their minority power...but then, the Asians have assimilated much better and now have pretty much melted into the majority.

If a very powerful, very active, very pro-active minority block, such as the Muslim's have, is allowed to grow without pressure to assimilate into the general population, they will eventually (at a bit above the 5% mark due to their resistance to participating in state run event's like elections) begin to exercise their law changing power...as we have seen evidence of in Britain, now...they will continue to elect more and more representatives to governmental seats. Their powers are enhanced significantly by "enablers"...that is members of the majority who actively participate in helping them gain political status (please take note of the rise of the Presidential Candidate, Barak Hussein Obama…a man with clearly Muslim influences in his background). These enablers act through either foolish naivety or by political greed...either way, the result is the same.

Eventually the minority element gains a political foothold that is used to enhance even more influence in social structures and to further expand it’s influence. In the case of Muslims, there is no compromise to anything less than total control given enough time. Muslims are unique in that they press their religion first over the power of the state…in the Islamic belief system, nothing short of total Islamic rule is tolerable. That is what makes them so dangerous to a free society…that and their willingness to use terror tactics as a routine political tool (please, don’t even go to the “good Muslim, Bad Muslim nonsense…condemning the many for misdeeds of the few…Muslims are Muslims are Muslims….the only reasons we have benevolent behavior out of the “good” is because of their minority status….let them gain a majority and you have Darfur and Sudan and Ethiopia and Iran…to name but a few).

Presently, the Muslims within Western societies realize they are at a crossroads. Their numbers for the present are too small to resist the overwhelming power of the majority secular population. They could step one bit too far and trigger a backlash reaction that could cause their utter failure…such as laws being passed outlawing the practice of Islam itself. But, if they are “good citizens’” for just a few more decades, their power base will expand to such a point they can not be resisted by any effective means short of open war. The result is mathematically predictable.

I think some nations are already realizing the “magic percentage” and the majority populace are beginning to realize the danger…I cite the Netherlands as an example.

In history, dramatic reactions have been demonstrated…I cite Spain of the latter half of the 15th century as an example of what happens when the Islamists over extend their power influences (please, hold back your urges to criticize this statement by saying “That was Islam then not Islam now!”…Islam has not changed one iota since the 11th century…their goals is still exactly the same…Total World Domination). What they can not conquer by military action they will eventually conquer merely by absorption.

The secular, political and religious confusion of their opponents…their victims…makes their tasks all that much easier. Already, we see many states(Britain, France, USA, etc) that find themselves helpless to find solutions to the very growing and quite obvious threat Islam presents. There is small wonder the religious leaders of Islam speak so confidently. They are well aware, their dominion over the people of this world is merely a matter of time…not a matter of if.

Dasein
11-29-2007, 03:41 PM
We have the same circumstance in the USA with Mexican illegals and immigrants who refuse to assimilate.

The number game involves a ratio between the legitimate inhabitants of a "place" and the illegitimate inhabitants. That number, according to some studies I have read although have no time right now to support with sources, is about 5%. The basis for this number is the science of politics and the voting block power that percentage represents. 12.5% is an absolute that simply can not be politically ignored. Between 5% and 12.5%, the trends begin in regard to politicians paying particular attention to the specific demographic. Laws begin to be passed as the pandering for votes begins. You see this in the USA with the huge over-influence the black minority has...as it turns out more than 80% of blacks vote democrat...yet blacks only represent 14% of the US population. Why are they so influential at such small numbers...because they tend to be monolithic in their voting habits. Although, this has worked against them in terms of power within the party itself due to the predictability of that constituency...they can safely be ignored by both parties since they do not effectively "switch vote"...that is, they are a safe political bet. However, the pandering that went on to build that "safe vote" resulted in enormous political changes in the US...Affirmative action, welfare, protected racial status, minority contractor advantages, educational advantages, etc.

The same thing happened with the Irish, the Italians and the Jewish to some degree (more or less)....the Asians are just now, belatedly, coming into their minority power...but then, the Asians have assimilated much better and now have pretty much melted into the majority.

If a very powerful, very active, very pro-active minority block, such as the Muslim's have, is allowed to grow without pressure to assimilate into the general population, they will eventually (at a bit above the 5% mark due to their resistance to participating in state run event's like elections) begin to exercise their law changing power...as we have seen evidence of in Britain, now...they will continue to elect more and more representatives to governmental seats. Their powers are enhanced significantly by "enablers"...that is members of the majority who actively participate in helping them gain political status (please take note of the rise of the Presidential Candidate, Barak Hussein Obama…a man with clearly Muslim influences in his background). These enablers act through either foolish naivety or by political greed...either way, the result is the same.

Eventually the minority element gains a political foothold that is used to enhance even more influence in social structures and to further expand it’s influence. In the case of Muslims, there is no compromise to anything less than total control given enough time. Muslims are unique in that they press their religion first over the power of the state…in the Islamic belief system, nothing short of total Islamic rule is tolerable. That is what makes them so dangerous to a free society…that and their willingness to use terror tactics as a routine political tool (please, don’t even go to the “good Muslim, Bad Muslim nonsense…condemning the many for misdeeds of the few…Muslims are Muslims are Muslims….the only reasons we have benevolent behavior out of the “good” is because of their minority status….let them gain a majority and you have Darfur and Sudan and Ethiopia and Iran…to name but a few).

Presently, the Muslims within Western societies realize they are at a crossroads. Their numbers for the present are too small to resist the overwhelming power of the majority secular population. They could step one bit too far and trigger a backlash reaction that could cause their utter failure…such as laws being passed outlawing the practice of Islam itself. But, if they are “good citizens’” for just a few more decades, their power base will expand to such a point they can not be resisted by any effective means short of open war. The result is mathematically predictable.

I think some nations are already realizing the “magic percentage” and the majority populace are beginning to realize the danger…I cite the Netherlands as an example.

In history, dramatic reactions have been demonstrated…I cite Spain of the latter half of the 15th century as an example of what happens when the Islamists over extend their power influences (please, hold back your urges to criticize this statement by saying “That was Islam then not Islam now!”…Islam has not changed one iota since the 11th century…their goals is still exactly the same…Total World Domination). What they can not conquer by military action they will eventually conquer merely by absorption.

The secular, political and religious confusion of their opponents…their victims…makes their tasks all that much easier. Already, we see many states(Britain, France, USA, etc) that find themselves helpless to find solutions to the very growing and quite obvious threat Islam presents. There is small wonder the religious leaders of Islam speak so confidently. They are well aware, their dominion over the people of this world is merely a matter of time…not a matter of if.

First, this really has nothing to do with the situation in France. The youth rioting are not trying to get Sharia law implemented, nor have they not integrated into French society. Rather, the root cause of the grievance seems to be that France isn't upholding it's end of the deal - these young people are native French, born and raised, but are still treated as outsiders. They have not rejected France, France has rejected them.

Second, your views on Islam are simply wrong. For example, Islamism is a 20th century phenomena, there were no Islamists in 15th century Spain.

Islam has changed considerably since the 11th century, most notably is the move away from ijtihad. Further, Islam itself is hardly monolithic - there are many different fiqhs, with their own regions of influence. Thus, the Islam you might find in Mali is not the same as the Islam you might find in Afghanistan. On top of that, there is the very recent rise of more radical movements in Islam, like Islamism, which advocates a political application of Islam.

Lt. James Anderson
11-29-2007, 03:59 PM
Islam has changed considerably since the 11th century, most notably is the move away from ijtihad.

Wow! Are you serious? Check some history books about Turkish control of some parts of Europe, particularly the Balkans ... The region is screwed up even today because of it. And then go ahead and read about treatment of the Christians under Islam at the beginning of the last century ...

FYI, as recent as the WWI and WWII the Muslims in the Balkans waged jihad against the Serbs (that is a historical fact).

Dasein
11-29-2007, 04:37 PM
Wow! Are you serious? Check some history books about Turkish control of some parts of Europe, particularly the Balkans ... The region is screwed up even today because of it. And then go ahead and read about treatment of the Christians under Islam at the beginning of the last century ...

FYI, as recent as the WWI and WWII the Muslims in the Balkans waged jihad against the Serbs (that is a historical fact).

You are confusing ijtihad with jihad. ijtihad is a process of making legal decisions based on independent interpretation of the Koran as opposed to taqlid. While ijtihad has a similar root as jihad, they are very different concepts.

Lt. James Anderson
11-29-2007, 04:43 PM
OK, never heard of it ...

Smok
11-29-2007, 05:00 PM
I know a guy, who was born in France. He is a muslim, but as I said born in France, his parents were born in France and he told, that he feels "100% frenchmen". He is really well educated - he has masters degree and he knows languages (AFAIK 6!). But he couldn't find any good job in France, because he is muslim, his name is Abdul and his ethnicity is Arabic. They told him, that he can be driver, cleaner etc. So he moved to Poland and found job here. And real job (adequate to his education) - not as shop assistant or bus driver.
So one of the reasons of this big problem is, that people in France are racists. White people in France had to change or that kind of clashes will be part of everyday life in France.

Mastermind
11-29-2007, 05:57 PM
First, this really has nothing to do with the situation in France. The youth rioting are not trying to get Sharia law implemented, nor have they not integrated into French society. Rather, the root cause of the grievance seems to be that France isn't upholding it's end of the deal - these young people are native French, born and raised, but are still treated as outsiders. They have not rejected France, France has rejected them.

Second, your views on Islam are simply wrong. For example, Islamism is a 20th century phenomena, there were no Islamists in 15th century Spain.

Islam has changed considerably since the 11th century, most notably is the move away from ijtihad. Further, Islam itself is hardly monolithic - there are many different fiqhs, with their own regions of influence. Thus, the Islam you might find in Mali is not the same as the Islam you might find in Afghanistan. On top of that, there is the very recent rise of more radical movements in Islam, like Islamism, which advocates a political application of Islam.
Sorry...I think you may be wrong on the diversity of pan-global Islam.

Sure, for now the Muslims are Islamic by degrees. But, the more powerful militant sects are reaching world wide influence. I cite the Philippine, Indonesian, and Australian influences as they become more and more like their Wahabist brothers. Islam, like Christianity, can certainly have manifold interpretations. But, the end goal of all Islam is world conquest. If there develops any one sect that demonstrates success in achieving this goal, that will be the magnetic model. As the west retreats before the influx of such militancy, as is currently being demonstrated, we will see (are seeing) the migration of Muslim minds toward that formula. As this migration accelerates, we are witnessing a parabolic curve develop in militant Islam’s progression.

Lt. James Anderson
11-29-2007, 05:59 PM
that people in France are racists.

Well, then the best solution would be to move all the Arabs from France to Poland ... If they are racist, they won't change ...
Seems like that would be the best solution for Arabs, French and Poles ...
Would you agree?

Alael
11-29-2007, 06:10 PM
The people in France are not racist.... the Renseignements Generaux (a kind of special branch of police specialized in collecting political and social informations) publish some very "political incorrect" stats about criminality in France (of course everyone tryed then to hide this): 70% of crimes and felonies are commited by 2 types of people said to be victims of racism (people we are talking about here).

The truth is 70% of criminals are africans or north africans, but they are only a little part of african and north african community living in France.

There are very good africans and north africans: honest, law abiding, working hard, paying their tax...and suffering because of the africans and north africans who do bad things and leave a bad image in the mind of the other peoples.

I have an Algerian friend who grew up in the northern suburb of Paris, he studied hard and found a job with lot of difficulties but he overcame these difficulties.

I have a friend who dislike africans and north africans young "wanna be gangsta" because of their invasive agressive and rude behaviour, is he racist? no he loves asians, because of their polite behaviour.

If Frenchs are racist, why don't the asian living in France complain? lot of asian people are doctors, lawyer etc... is the french society's top reserved to white people? no, but the africans and north africans "wanna be gangsta" put a such image in the mind of people because of their behavior that for the good ones life become hard, and the socialists with their ideology that criminals are not really responsible, because they are made by the society, gave this excuse for more than 16 years (during the time they were in the presidency of France and in the government) to these thugs making this situation worse, instead to put the thugs in jail, so the good africans and north africans won't be associated to these criminals in the mind of other people.

Smok come here in France take the train in Paris suburb and if you are assaulted, you will tell me what kind of guy did it...and I will say that you are racist.


Lot of africans and north africans are now in French National Police, this fact pissed the thugs off because they can't say anymore that they are victims of racism from Police, obviously these cops are say to have betrayed their race, and they are more in danger than the white cops.
Some Algerian origin french citizens booed the French national anthem in the stadium during a soccer match between France and Algeria, this shocked the real Algerian peoples who came here to see these Algerian origin peoples with french citizenship acting so badly without honor.

Guerrier_Franc
11-29-2007, 07:19 PM
these young people are native French, born and raised, but are still treated as outsiders.

just a question do you live in france ? are you french ?

Guerrier_Franc
11-29-2007, 07:20 PM
So one of the reasons of this big problem is, that people in France are racists.

French people is probably one of the less racist people of the world, of course there are racists (as all countries in this world ) but they aren't definitely the majority.
In fact France has been too laxist during severals decades and pays for it today.

Now french people want security, return of autority and it's the principal reason to the election of Nicolas sarkozy, it's not random if he's president.

Telmar
11-30-2007, 02:50 AM
OK, since I'm not French, let me trigger the flame war here:

So there you go. Many countries have got over the "it is fine to put the blame on blacks" complex, but are still in the "it is fine to put the blame on Muslims" phase, because one is politically unacceptable, while the other is perfectly fine.



Good analysis.

As for me as probably most people, I blame those who shoot police officers, firemen, and random citizens whatever colour their skin has.

Smok
11-30-2007, 08:57 AM
Well, then the best solution would be to move all the Arabs from France to Poland ... If they are racist, they won't change ...
Seems like that would be the best solution for Arabs, French and Poles ...
Would you agree?

Problem is more complicated. Not only racism is there. Also bad political of all French governmensts since end of WW2. And of course muslims are problem too.

I live in Wroclaw, which is the biggest "muslim" city in Poland. About 1000 muslims per 600000 citizens. Not much (if we compare to France) but 1000 is quite big number. And we have no problems with them. No crime, no unemployment, no ghettos etc. But we have different policy. Only educated people can stay in Poland. Also we have well working border guard, so we are able to stop illegal immigrants.
But we have problems with Gypsies. 300 Gypsies in Wroclaw make 10 time more problems than 1000 muslims.

And I met few Frenchmen - they are bigger racists than Poles. This im my oppinion.

Scourge
11-30-2007, 11:58 AM
Problem is more complicated. Not only racism is there. Also bad political of all French governmensts since end of WW2. And of course muslims are problem too.

I live in Wroclaw, which is the biggest "muslim" city in Poland. About 1000 muslims per 600000 citizens. Not much (if we compare to France) but 1000 is quite big number. And we have no problems with them. No crime, no unemployment, no ghettos etc. But we have different policy. Only educated people can stay in Poland. Also we have well working border guard, so we are able to stop illegal immigrants.
But we have problems with Gypsies. 300 Gypsies in Wroclaw make 10 time more problems than 1000 muslims.

And I met few Frenchmen - they are bigger racists than Poles. This im my oppinion.

'Educated people' do not make generalizations :) Ooops, did I just make one?

Mastermind
11-30-2007, 12:38 PM
Problem is more complicated. Not only racism is there. Also bad political of all French governmensts since end of WW2. And of course muslims are problem too.

I live in Wroclaw, which is the biggest "muslim" city in Poland. About 1000 muslims per 600000 citizens. Not much (if we compare to France) but 1000 is quite big number. And we have no problems with them. No crime, no unemployment, no ghettos etc. But we have different policy. Only educated people can stay in Poland. Also we have well working border guard, so we are able to stop illegal immigrants.
But we have problems with Gypsies. 300 Gypsies in Wroclaw make 10 time more problems than 1000 muslims.

And I met few Frenchmen - they are bigger racists than Poles. This im my oppinion.
So, how are the Gyspies bigger problem? What is it they do to be a problem and why are they allowed to do it.

Typically, when Muslims are in a very small minority, they are very quiet...no problem. It is when they gain advantages in numbers they begin to express their desire to force others to their way. When your 1000 become 60,000 out of 600,000 then you will see them becoming a problem. Of course, there may be exceptions to this observation...just that I have not found any examples of where Muslims have assimilated peacefully when their numbers have grown to a viable percentage point..

AROUETLJ
11-30-2007, 01:18 PM
Good analysis.

As for me as probably most people, I blame those who shoot police officers, firemen, and random citizens whatever colour their skin has.

Yep. You get all these news analysis going on about "Muslim revolts in France", but never a word about "Blacks' revolt in France". Because the latter is racist and taboo, while the other is not.

Smok
11-30-2007, 01:37 PM
So, how are the Gyspies bigger problem? What is it they do to be a problem and why are they allowed to do it.

Typically, when Muslims are in a very small minority, they are very quiet...no problem. It is when they gain advantages in numbers they begin to express their desire to force others to their way. When your 1000 become 60,000 out of 600,000 then you will see them becoming a problem. Of course, there may be exceptions to this observation...just that I have not found any examples of where Muslims have assimilated peacefully when their numbers have grown to a viable percentage point..

The main point is, to make strong assimilated part of well educated and liberal muslims, who will be a "good kernel" of growing muslims minority. This is what our government does.
In other countries situation is different. Many poor educated muslims arrive to country in short time, make ghettos (they don't need to assimilate then) and that is the reason of future problems.

Problem with Gypsies is, that they don't want to learn (they don't go to schools), don't want to work and steals everything they can.

Mr.K
11-30-2007, 01:40 PM
There were revolts in french suburbs even before the "arabs/muslims/blacks/strangers". Back then it was the "evil socialists" now its the "evil strangers who want to force their beleifs on us".
It's a rich vs poor/excluded confrontation.

Lt. James Anderson
11-30-2007, 04:54 PM
It's a rich vs poor/excluded confrontation.

Thanks for that worthless communist BS explanation.

Mastermind
11-30-2007, 05:47 PM
Problem with Gypsies is, that they don't want to learn (they don't go to schools), don't want to work and steals everything they can.
Hey, they sould just like some of my relatives that come to celebrate holidays here in Las Vegas. Damn Gypsies! They're everywhere!

Dasein
11-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Thanks for that worthless communist BS explanation.

What's wrong with that explanation, and why is it 'communist'?

Kilgor
11-30-2007, 06:22 PM
What's wrong with that explanation, and why is it 'communist'?

Because the riots are not a simplistic case of class warfare peddled by types who's understanding of society is rooted in discredited 19th century viewpoints.

Telmar
12-01-2007, 03:29 AM
The main point is, to make strong assimilated part of well educated and liberal muslims, who will be a "good kernel" of growing muslims minority. This is what our government does.
In other countries situation is different. Many poor educated muslims arrive to country in short time, make ghettos (they don't need to assimilate then) and that is the reason of future problems.

Problem with Gypsies is, that they don't want to learn (they don't go to schools), don't want to work and steals everything they can.

You are no different than the French racists. You have just other groups you dislike and generalize on.

Kaapeli
12-01-2007, 04:34 AM
In other countries situation is different. Many poor educated muslims arrive to country in short time, make ghettos (they don't need to assimilate then) and that is the reason of future problems.

Living in a ghetto is rarely a choice made willingly.
Most lower class and poor people go live where it's affordable from them.
My understanding is that many of these French immigrants areas were purpose built as slums for the poor.

A way to avoid creating ghettos is to disperse cheap rental flats.
In my country the poorest live in publicly funded rental flats that have a lower rent than free market housing. These flats are not left in disrepair or concentrated in any particular area where the social problems and poverty could create ghettos. So it's a matter of city planning.

Smok
12-01-2007, 08:48 AM
You are no different than the French racists. You have just other groups you dislike and generalize on.

No I'm not. I have never saw a working Gypsy! Never! I saw many working muslims (doctors, shop assistants, teachers) but no Gypsies.
I met muslim students, but never met Gypsy student.
AFAIK there are 3 Gypsies, who work in Wroclaw. Yes - three persons! 297 don't want to work. One time local magistrate from Legnica city offered jobs for all their Gypsies (to pull them out from the ghettos). Not a single Gypsy accepted this proposition. They preffer to steal or do nothing.



Living in a ghetto is rarely a choice made willingly.
Most lower class and poor people go live where it's affordable from them.
My understanding is that many of these French immigrants areas were purpose built as slums for the poor.

A way to avoid creating ghettos is to disperse cheap rental flats.
In my country the poorest live in publicly funded rental flats that have a lower rent than free market housing. These flats are not left in disrepair or concentrated in any particular area where the social problems and poverty could create ghettos. So it's a matter of city planning.

Yes I agree! But the problem is when some minority don't want to "mix" with majority and preffer to live in some "groups" in one part of city.

Musashi
12-01-2007, 08:50 AM
You are no different than the French racists. You have just other groups you dislike and generalize on.
I was living in a city with many Gypsies in Poland.
NONE of them had even a primary school completed
99% of them did not have any work

I am not a racist, but I can just confirm, what Smok said.

Dasein
12-01-2007, 12:58 PM
Because the riots are not a simplistic case of class warfare peddled by types who's understanding of society is rooted in discredited 19th century viewpoints.

Neither can elements of class and economics be ignored. Economics remain a driving element of society, and are often a determining factor in historical change. To dismiss Marxism entirely is simply unfounded - the analytic methods developed by Marx have so permeated our understanding of history that Marxism now seems self-evident as an approach to history. To say economics can now be seen as a determining force in history is now considered a benign and even commonplace statement, but this is the legacy of Marx.

Sharp
12-01-2007, 01:08 PM
this just an ethnic and education problem .. you can't ask peoples to share the values of the country they'are currently in if their parents always educated them like if they didn't were from this country, but from the one their great parents were... further more, you can addionate this problem with an educational one, no money = no hope = no straigh on your childrens