[UK] 'Major Crackdown on Gun Culture'

[Dave-Sappy]

Major crackdown on guns culture

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44268000/jpg/_44268732_ram_203.jpg There were 57 arrests in Merseyside after raids

More than 100 arrests were made and more than 1,300 weapons seized in a major offensive against gun culture, the home secretary has announced.
Co-ordinated raids in Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and London led to 118 arrests and the seizure of the weapons - most of them replicas.
More than 1,000 officers were involved in the crackdown, which included work in schools and support for families.
Jacqui Smith said it showed the police could "fight back against gangs".
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif It's important that we make sure that we're getting guns and other weapons off the streets, that we're making clear that this isn't the sort of activity that we have to live with http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Jacqui Smith

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

Vote to tighten Euro gun laws (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7117042.stm)


Speaking from Longsight police station in Manchester, she said: "What yesterday demonstrates is that this is the case and I hope that will reassure communities and encourage the police officers and others that have been working on this to keep up the good work."
Not all of the 118 arrests were gun related; others were linked to drugs, prostitution and other crimes.
The home secretary added: "What we know is that the relationship with gang membership and drugs crime and other things often can lead to gun crime and it's important that we tackle that.
"It's important that we make sure that we're getting guns and other weapons off the streets, that we're making clear that this isn't the sort of activity that we have to live with, that ordinary members of the community can fight back against it."
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifOPERATION SEIZURES
Ten handguns
1,296 imitation firearms
Three CS gas canisters
One stun gun
Four air weapons
Large number knives/batons
Live ammunition (five seizures)
34 vehicles
£5,900 in cash
67 warrants executed


Police arrested gang members after serving search warrants and operating armed mobile checkpoints which used automatic number plate recognition equipment.
Police were also joined by Revenue and Customs officers in checking the records of registered firearms dealers to ensure they were operating within the law.
West Midlands Police carried out three arrest warrants and made a total of 26 arrests.
In Manchester, drugs, firearms - including a stun gun - and machetes were seized while extra patrols were operating in the areas of Fallowfield, Moss Side and Old Trafford.
And in Liverpool, arrests were made for a variety of offences including the possession of firearms and drugs.
Police also uncovered four cannabis factories and seized a large quantity of class A drugs. The four cities targeted were identified by the government as gun crime "hot spots" after 11-year-old Rhys Jones was shot dead as he walked home from football practice in Croxteth Park, Liverpool, in August. Meanwhile, a proposal led by British MEP Arlene McCarthy to ban firearms that can be converted into handguns faces a vote in the European Parliament.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7118332.stm

[My Comment] Much of the guns shown on the news are airsoft...hardly lethal weapons! But as usual the media portray them as terrible murderous killer guns!

[GunnerBhoy]

[My Comment] Much of the guns shown on the news are airsoft...hardly lethal weapons! But as usual the media portray them as terrible murderous killer guns!


In the wrong hands airsoft weapons can get people killed, they look identical to the real thing.

[Lov3ll]

I can just see all the airsofters crying as the police take away their BB guns rofl

[Billy No Mates]

Im glad to see that politicians are really rooting out the causes of gun crime in the UK namely our silly European neighbours......good work Arlene McCarthy......

[Dave-Sappy]

In the wrong hands airsoft weapons can get people killed, they look identical to the real thing.

Thats very true, although I see it as a bit of Darwinian evolution; if your stupid enough to take an airsoft gun in public you deserve what youve got coming!

[Jaeger07]

These kinds of busts prevents a lot of crime.

Police in many countries are turning to "confiscation tactics", and its effective as hell.

[Tokamak]

1,296?!!! WOW!. I am glad they are making some progress. About the places that they raided in Manchester, I was a little surprise to see Fallowfield, that's mainly a student area.

[akd]

1,296 imitation firearms


How is an imitation firearm a weapon? I think some other aspect of culture may be the issue here. Nanny state on the rampage. I'm sure there will be a huge drop in replica violence now.

[WarriorMonk]

yay for the nanny state!

NOT.

[Invisigoth]

How is an imitation firearm a weapon? I think some other aspect of culture may be the issue here. Nanny state on the rampage. I'm sure there will be a huge drop in replica violence now.

Its a firearm when it raises your success rate from 10 to a whooping 1306 confiscated weapons :roll:

[theholeinthedonut]

Its a firearm when it raises your success rate from 10 to a whooping 1306 confiscated weapons :roll:

I like that one!! Well done! Big PR stunt....sadly my beloved UK seems to be going down the gutter.

[GunnerBhoy]

Although these replicas are far from being as dangerous as the real thing they are used to commit crimes, for example if your being mugged by someone brandishing a 'firearm' are you going to wait and find out if it does go bang?

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

How is an imitation firearm a weapon?


More importantly, how are they illegal? Or are the cops just taking people's toy guns without due process?

[theholeinthedonut]

Although these replicas are far from being as dangerous as the real thing they are used to commit crimes, for example if your being mugged by someone brandishing a 'firearm' are you going to wait and find out if it does go bang?

If all you ever saw was a gun on tv ok......anyhow there are thousands of uzis etc. on London's street...hardly will make out a difference if you take away a 1300+ toy guns
EDIT: In your logic every single household in the UK should be raided then... every single kitchen or butcher's knife is a weapon much more dangerous then a replica gun.

[GunnerBhoy]

In 'my logic' as you have put it, it is clear that replicas are used in gun crime, i have not said that replicas should be made illegal, but the houses raided by the police are unlikely to be lived in by law abiding citizens. therefore their replicas should be confiscated.
I see these raids as a positive move by the police, wheather or not the have mainly confiscated replicas.

[Herrmannek]

going to some homes in full swat gear 100$
busting doors 10$
taking children toys 0.1$
calling them weapons 0.02$
and showing this all on national tv pricless

[Peiper_76]

In the wrong hands airsoft weapons can get people killed, they look identical to the real thing.

"In the wrong hands airsoft weapons can get /the wielder/ killed, they look identical to the real thing."

fixed.



Although these replicas are far from being as dangerous as the real thing they are used to commit crimes, for example if your being mugged by someone brandishing a 'firearm' are you going to wait and find out if it does go bang?

Was it not the "point" of prohibitive gun policy in the United Kingdom, to "prevent innocent gun deaths." This seems evident per the reclassification and banning of classes of weapons as a reaction to the Hungerford and Dunblane "massacres." If so, how does the prohibition of replicas "prevent innocent gun deaths?"

Notwithstanding, it is one's duty, per the UK government, to not resist if one is being "mugged." So what does it matter how they are "mugging" someone? This is unless the UK government has discovered some secret causal relationship between replicas and "muggings."


replicas are used in gun crime

To qualify a crime committed using a replica as "gun crime" is a canard. The simple fact remains that a replica is not a firearm. While the presence of a replica ought to be treated as an aggravating factor during the legal prosecution of a crime, it no more endangers the victim than any other blunt object.

[Billy No Mates]

Its a firearm when it raises your success rate from 10 to a whooping 1306 confiscated weapons :roll:

Exactly concerned citizens will now be able to sleep at night safe in the knowledge that the police are having amazing sucess at curbing the so called gun culture so beloved of wannabe gangsters and tabloid editors alike .

[akd]

Although these replicas are far from being as dangerous as the real thing they are used to commit crimes, for example if your being mugged by someone brandishing a 'firearm' are you going to wait and find out if it does go bang?

They should go ahead and confiscate hands and feet, as well. They could be used in a crime or potentially do something that could get the user injured or even killed.

[Hunterhr]

I'm waiting for the inevitable news story, "5 Dead, 7 Injured in police raid targeting airsoft guns, as airsofters use deadly force to protect their replicas. "Those things are ****ing expensive" one suspect was reported to have said as he was taken into custody."

[EsoognomEhT]

going to some homes in full swat gear 100$
busting doors 10$
taking children toys 0.1$
calling them weapons 0.02$
and showing this all on national tv pricless

Except it would be in £.

[Herrmannek]

Except it would be in £.

Don't know how to push that from my keyboard :)

[CMNot]

^^ Try Ctrl+Alt+$, it gives €'s on UK keyboards.


Megaraptor;2903179']More importantly, how are they illegal? Or are the cops just taking people's toy guns without due process?

Due process? Such a thing doesn't exist if a copper chooses to pull you up on "anti-terrorism" laws.

Personally, if taking one airsoft gun away from some chav stops some poor copper from being suspended for 6 months and having his name dragged through the mud for shooting him, I'm all for it. The only thing sadder than having a 'gun' fixation is having a fecking 'toy gun' fixation.

[Calanen]

How is an imitation firearm a weapon? I think some other aspect of culture may be the issue here. Nanny state on the rampage. I'm sure there will be a huge drop in replica violence now.

If someone points an imitation firearm at you - its a bit hard to scream 'Fake!' confidently. Of course, that is not the case if its a pink supersoaker. But a realistic looking replica, there would be no way to tell the difference. You can commit armed robbery with a replica, as most people are not going to risk determining whether or not the gun is actually real by encouraging the perps to shoot it.

[Lambert58]

Come to my house and try and take my weapons. I might be leaving in a body bag, but i won't f&^%ing be solo.

[akd]

If someone points an imitation firearm at you - its a bit hard to scream 'Fake!' confidently. Of course, that is not the case if its a pink supersoaker. But a realistic looking replica, there would be no way to tell the difference. You can commit armed robbery with a replica, as most people are not going to risk determining whether or not the gun is actually real by encouraging the perps to shoot it.

Yes, and you could strangle someone with your hands or kick someone's teeth in with your feet, both fundamentally more unpleasant things than being "violently" robbed with a toy gun. Obviously my point was sarcastic, highlighting the absurdity of a culture that spends tax dollars and police time confiscating something that is basically harmless because of what it might be used for, then boast about it as if they have actually prevented violent crimes that were certain to occur through the action.

Anyways, shouldn't any rationale Brit know for certain that the "gun" pointed at them is just a toy, seeing as the real things are banned.

[Calanen]

Yes, and you could strangle someone with your hands or kick someone's teeth in with your feet, both fundamentally more unpleasant things than being "violently" robbed with a toy gun.


That's just silliness. How could you rob a bank with your feet? Or carjack them. It's not comparing apples with apples. Replicas are able to be used as firearms, with the only exception being that they cannot fire. No one on the receiving end knows that however, and those airsoft guns can look a lot like the real deal.



Anyways, shouldn't any rationale Brit know for certain that the "gun" pointed at them is just a toy, seeing as the real things are banned.


And armed robbers really care about gun laws. They are banned here to, and the cops catch people with AK47s all the frigging time.

[Calanen]

Anyways, shouldn't any rationale Brit know for certain that the "gun" pointed at them is just a toy, seeing as the real things are banned.

So you would've confidently shouted 'fake' when you saw these guys in Belfast? Believe both RPGs and assault rifles are banned in the UK.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41629000/jpg/_41629016_ira_238.jpg

[zealot]

Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

[Royal]

Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

Quit talking sense - you'll mess up all their arguements.

[Billy No Mates]

Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

Like drugs which is what the gun problem is all about it is a matter of supply and demand,we can try to curb the supply of converted replicas or decommissioned firearms get the makers of airpistols to alter their product or whatever but if we cant stop the flow of drugs then we are unlikely to be able to stop firearms coming in either im not saying we shouldnt try but if we could stop the drugs then that would do more than anything to curb gun crime(and a whole host of other crimes).

[CMNot]

Yes but the problem with that thesis is no one has come across a decent drug policy yet. The American hard line was an abysmal failure, the Dutch still have illegal drugs despite a very liberal and open-minded approach to drug culture in general (and anyone who has been to Amsterdam for over a week will tell you what that policy means come the weekend :roll:). We can't even stop the movement of Afghan hash, which is odd when that country is full of troops from Afghan hash 'client' countries.

[Billy No Mates]

Your right of course its a very hardline to tread,i suppose im only pointing out the obvious cause and effect that the rise of gun crime here is directly related to the increase of drugs .

[muck]

I can just see all the airsofters crying as the police take away their BB guns rofl
roflYeah!

But only ten sharp weapons, what a poor harvest.

[akd]

So you would've confidently shouted 'fake' when you saw these guys in Belfast? Believe both RPGs and assault rifles are banned in the UK.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41629000/jpg/_41629016_ira_238.jpg

Internet sarcasm fails again.


Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

Now that I didn't know, and would be surprised if true.

[pgm]

Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

I'm afraid this is not true, or to be more correct, you are just repeating a metropolitan legend. Even if it's possible to "reinforce" and/or modify a replica so that it can shoot a projectile, in most cases it becomes a "deadly weapon" only for the people who use it: replicas are (deliberately) made in metal alloys that can't stand the stress of firing. In more than 20 years of weapons study and collection, I've yet to see a replica modified so that it can be considered a really "deadly weapon" (apart for those who brandish it, as I've already said). The same goes for decommissioned weapons: if you have the tools and the parts to reactivate a deactivated MAC-10 or UZI, it means that you can made a new one from scratch - so I can't understand why you really want to work on a deactivated weapon, which is much more complex and time-consuming.
All in all, I'm afraid that most of the posts in this thread miss the point: the real problem are not weapons in se (even less airsoft weapons!), but men - i.e. criminals. But it's not surprising that the same people who uphold gun laws and gun confiscation also are in favour of less severe punishments. In their logic, a criminal is always a product of society and circumstances. So, take off weapons and "weapons culture" (whatever it is), and you'll have a perfect society without criminals. Absolute idiocy.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Come to my house and try and take my weapons. I might be leaving in a body bag, but i won't f&^%ing be solo.

Lambert - perhaps you ought to point out to the membership that you don't live within 3,000 miles of the country in question, do you even know where it is? Your ignorance and stupidity are quite astounding. Think yourself lucky that you live in a country with more freedom of weapons ownership despite the appalling gun crime rates. We don't all have that privilege.

[BugHunt]

I'm afraid this is not true, or to be more correct, you are just repeating a metropolitan legend. Even if it's possible to "reinforce" and/or modify a replica so that it can shoot a projectile, in most cases it becomes a "deadly weapon" only for the people who use it: replicas are (deliberately) made in metal alloys that can't stand the stress of firing. In more than 20 years of weapons study and collection, I've yet to see a replica modified so that it can be considered a really "deadly weapon" (apart for those who brandish it, as I've already said). The same goes for decommissioned weapons: if you have the tools and the parts to reactivate a deactivated MAC-10 or UZI, it means that you can made a new one from scratch - so I can't understand why you really want to work on a deactivated weapon, which is much more complex and time-consuming.
All in all, I'm afraid that most of the posts in this thread miss the point: the real problem are not weapons in se (even less airsoft weapons!), but men - i.e. criminals. But it's not surprising that the same people who uphold gun laws and gun confiscation also are in favour of less severe punishments. In their logic, a criminal is always a product of society and circumstances. So, take off weapons and "weapons culture" (whatever it is), and you'll have a perfect society without criminals. Absolute idiocy.


Sorry m8 theres been enough PROSECUTIONS of those doing the convertions, that even with the hyperbole and usual tabloid BS one suspects there importing replicas and deactivated as opposed to REAL Ingrams and Uzis by the tonne....

They work on deactivated and occasional replicas - specific models because these are easier to get then real ones...there was that german CO2 gun which was of high enough standard (after conversion) to fire a real round....


Remeber there not selling these weapons to high end delta operators - but generally low end criminals. Drug dealers who need to brandish something to scare away competition, muppets who want to be the "big man" etc.

These guys arent gun connoisseurs they aint going to doing extended firefights - there probably only going to fire a few times if that.

Considering prisoners in some US prisons have managed to create working guns from spare bits of metal, and the same phenomena occurs in some of the poorer far eastern countries id say its pretty damn possible....

[California Joe]

Come to my house and try and take my weapons. I might be leaving in a body bag, but i won't f&^%ing be solo.

"Any of you homos touch my stuff....I'll kill ya."

http://montysbluff.com/francis.jpg

Lighten up Francis.

[Peiper_76]

Guys, you are missing one very important point. Two-thirds of the illegal firearms on british streets are converted replicas. They are usually german made hi-quality replicas, made out of quality steel with a real/ fully working action(i'm not talking about airsoft!) made to fire powerfull blanks. Once on uk soil, the barrels are reinforced/or replaced in illegal factories, real bullets are loaded in and voila! You've got yourself a deadly weapon. Another important source are decommissioned weapons, which are re-activated, especially when it comes to sub-machine guns on British streets, like MAC-10 and UZI.. i'd call this preemptive operation...

What is your source for your "two-thirds" assertion beyond some vague and unsourced BBC news story? Quality citations would help here, such as government or law enforcement statistics or papers.

In a Home Office study of 106 "firearms," 71 were "real firearms," 4 were "converted imitation firearms," and 1 was a "reactivated firearm."

It is important to note that there was no commentary as to the condition of the converted or reactivated weapons. The report does not note if these firearms are functional, much less safe for the wielder.

The sources cited for the 71 "real firearms" ranged from negligence on the owner's part, theft, the black-market, to cross-border smuggling.

Gun crime: the market in and use of illegal firearms
[ http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hors298.pdf ]


extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

[Royal]

I'm afraid this is not true, or to be more correct, you are just repeating a metropolitan legend. Even if it's possible to "reinforce" and/or modify a replica so that it can shoot a projectile, in most cases it becomes a "deadly weapon" only for the people who use it: replicas are (deliberately) made in metal alloys that can't stand the stress of firing. In more than 20 years of weapons study and collection, I've yet to see a replica modified so that it can be considered a really "deadly weapon" (apart for those who brandish it, as I've already said). The same goes for decommissioned weapons: if you have the tools and the parts to reactivate a deactivated MAC-10 or UZI, it means that you can made a new one from scratch - so I can't understand why you really want to work on a deactivated weapon, which is much more complex and time-consuming.

My bold.

So are you a cop? an armourer? or just some internet wannabe?

I've seen enough home made weapons and devices between Northern Ireland, the Balkans and various African and Middle Eastern dumps to last me a lifetime. Any cretin with a lathe and a drill can turn out a zip-gun. A de-ac or an 8mm blank firer can be puting 9mm down the range in half an hour.

Yes the people that use them are the problem, but does that mean that we should just chuck firearms at them and hope no one gets slotted in the crossfire?

I had a licence for a BHP (when it was still legal) so I'm no anti-gun nut, but I'll be quite happy for all these replicas to be off the streets - even if it simply stops some poor AFO having to slot an idiot too stupid not to carry one...

[DeltaWhisky58]

I too owned a BHP in the days of old, but I'm with Royal 100% of the way. Get these abominations off the streets and we'll all be safer.

[11 Bravo]

My bold.

Any cretin with a lathe and a drill can turn out a zip-gun. A de-ac or an 8mm blank firer can be puting 9mm down the range in half an hour.

I had a licence for a BHP (when it was still legal) so I'm no anti-gun nut.



Not just any "cretin" can manage such work with a lathe. A deac or 8mm blank toy can be made live in half an hour....I really beg to differ on that farce.The 9x19 pistol cartridge if so chambered in ANY half hour conversion hack would if at all possible to fire this cartridge in this scenario cause said toy to come apart.
Old spec deacs may be more readily converted back to live status , but getting the parts is the bugbear as they are nearly illegal as the guns themselves.The newer spec deacs are pretty much scrap metal as they are intended to be. If you can get a cretin with a lathe to make one of these go bang in half an hour I'll eat yours' and my hat too !.
The toys/replicas converted to a "live" round to my knowledge all have been in 22 rimfire caliber and some in 25 ACP - neither of which are high pressure and fairly common cartridges around the world - especially europe.
These thugs can sleeve a replica barrel and the cylinders of replica revolvers and make a very cheap and marginally effective pistol with the two calibers I mentioned. Try that with a 9mm or even a 32 ACP and you will have bits of diecast potmetal flying about !.
Anyhow this is a rarity when encountered by the british police.There is no shortage of real guns in this world...if some people want them even in the nanny state... they will obtain them/
So much technical and propaganda nonsense spouted in threads like this.

[Royal]

Anyhow this is a rarity when encountered by the british police.There is no shortage of real guns in this world...if some people want them even in the nanny state... they will obtain them/
So much technical and propaganda nonsense spouted in threads like this.

I'll take that as an insult to me and my country...

Oh and I'll take the word of the AFOs that I know about deac conversions over an internet know-it-all.

Have the best day.

[Steel21]

Although these replicas are far from being as dangerous as the real thing they are used to commit crimes, for example if your being mugged by someone brandishing a 'firearm' are you going to wait and find out if it does go bang?

Well, if the kid's brandishing what is probably a $3000+ SOPMOD CQBR with Eotech, Surefire and Gripod...... then the chances that I demand to hear a bang goes up a bit.

[pgm]

My bold.
So are you a cop? an armourer? or just some internet wannabe?None of the above: I've been collecting weapons since I was 18 and in the last 10 years I've been writing about guns in the most important Italian weapons magazine - Armi Magazine. Sorry. But maybe I'm not an expert like you: you'll never finish to learn...


I've seen enough home made weapons and devices between Northern Ireland, the Balkans and various African and Middle Eastern dumps to last me a lifetime.
And have you ever seen these devices firing more than once or twice without exploding or jamming? You must know very lucky people all around the world.


Any cretin with a lathe and a drill can turn out a zip-gun. A de-ac or an 8mm blank firer can be puting 9mm down the range in half an hour. If you mean that any idiot can take a steel tube with more or less an adeguate calibre, put some ammo in it, and strike the primer with a nail and a hammer, sure it's true. But I doubt that this thing can be called a "gun". It's more a suicide instrument. I thought we were talking about functional guns, not devices that sometimes can shoot something - and certainly they can't shoot a 9x19 ammo, with pressures around 2500 bars...



Yes the people that use them are the problem, but does that mean that we should just chuck firearms at them and hope no one gets slotted in the crossfire?
No, I just mean that we should put these people in jail and stop masturbating about requisitions of airsoft guns in the kids' room and "reactivated" weapons. What's next: slings and rubber bands requisitions? These too can shoot projectiles, and even "live ammo" (using them as blunt instruments, of course).

[pgm]

Not just any "cretin" can manage such work with a lathe. A deac or 8mm blank toy can be made live in half an hour....I really beg to differ on that farce.The 9x19 pistol cartridge if so chambered in ANY half hour conversion hack would if at all possible to fire this cartridge in this scenario cause said toy to come apart.
Old spec deacs may be more readily converted back to live status , but getting the parts is the bugbear as they are nearly illegal as the guns themselves.The newer spec deacs are pretty much scrap metal as they are intended to be. If you can get a cretin with a lathe to make one of these go bang in half an hour I'll eat yours' and my hat too !.
The toys/replicas converted to a "live" round to my knowledge all have been in 22 rimfire caliber and some in 25 ACP - neither of which are high pressure and fairly common cartridges around the world - especially europe.
These thugs can sleeve a replica barrel and the cylinders of replica revolvers and make a very cheap and marginally effective pistol with the two calibers I mentioned. Try that with a 9mm or even a 32 ACP and you will have bits of diecast potmetal flying about !.
Anyhow this is a rarity when encountered by the british police.There is no shortage of real guns in this world...if some people want them even in the nanny state... they will obtain them/
So much technical and propaganda nonsense spouted in threads like this.

That's exactly what I meant...

[BugHunt]

If you mean that any idiot can take a steel tube with more or less an adeguate calibre, put some ammo in it, and strike the primer with a nail and a hammer, sure it's true. But I doubt that this thing can be called a "gun". It's more a suicide instrument. I thought we were talking about functional guns, not devices that sometimes can shoot something - and certainly they can't shoot a 9x19 ammo, with pressures around 2500 bars...


Even if what you guys (pgm and 11Bravo) are saying is 100% correct - and forgetting government and tabloid BS - are you saying getting shot once or twice with 22rimfire or 25 ACP ISNT a danger? :bash:


People are still being shot and killed with those "non-functional" guns....

Also there was a conviction maybe a year back in the north for a father and son team who were churning out uzi's and AK's from deactivated weapons!

£££ hundreds of thousands in profit made by them.....


Sod knows if they were "mil spec" weapons...the news report mentioned at the time they were importing deactivated weapons and basically replacing the barrels.


Seems like if a net nerd can do a bit of research on which bits are needed to work and where to source them - so can a criminal...

[Geezah]

Lambert - perhaps you ought to point out to the membership that you don't live within 3,000 miles of the country in question, do you even know where it is? Your ignorance and stupidity are quite astounding. Think yourself lucky that you live in a country with more freedom of weapons ownership despite the appalling gun crime rates. We don't all have that privilege.

I put it to anyone here to prove that firearm crime in the US is anywhere as bad as you imply.
The same cannot be said about the UK.

[Geezah]

I too owned a BHP in the days of old, but I'm with Royal 100% of the way. Get these abominations off the streets and we'll all be safer.

I agree with some of the comment above, it's just the abominations in my mind that need to be off the streets are those that choose to break the law.

Once the courts start handing down sentences that match the crime commited you will see a decline in the "hey, I'm a cool gangster culture".

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

There is no shortage of real guns in this world...if some people want them even in the nanny state... they will obtain them/
So much technical and propaganda nonsense spouted in threads like this.

Tell me where I might find them? Don't know about where you live but here it's pretty dam hard to get an illegal weapon. And whats more I grew up (my parents still reside) in Australia's poorest, most crime infested suburb.

[Hollis]

Tell me where I might find them? Don't know about where you live but here it's pretty dam hard to get an illegal weapon. And whats more I grew up (my parents still reside) in Australia's poorest, most crime infested suburb.

Minny, Good question. From what I know about human nature, Where there is a demand and someone willing to pay, they will be a supply. Why would a firearm be any more harder to get, then say Cocaine?

I have a small machine shop and can build simple things, firearms are simple things. I am sure in Austrialia there are probably machine shops that can do much more than I can.

Example, there are illegal drugs where I live, I haven't got a clue where to go to buy any. Just because I don't have a clue, does not mean it is not there.

[Geezah]

I showed Min an article a couple of years ago that covered Chinese copies of Glocks that made their way into Australia. It's all about supply and demand.

I guess in Mins World, rubber and plastic mixing together is a big no nop-)

[Shellshock1918]

In the wrong hands airsoft weapons can get people killed, they look identical to the real thing.

quit being a sissy.

[lider_r]

I put it to anyone here to prove that firearm crime in the US is anywhere as bad as you imply.


If the department of justice's stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm)are correct, then it would equal 1306 crimes involving a firearm per day in 2005 and nearly 30 firearm homicides perday in 2004. Thats pretty bad.


Anyways, good on the UK gov for this.

[Hollis]

If the department of justice's stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm)are correct, then it would equal 1306 crimes involving a firearm per day in 2005 and nearly 30 firearm homicides perday in 2004. Thats pretty bad.


Anyways, good on the UK gov for this.

Check with the BBC on this, they had a article some time back on violence.


Other thing, How many people in the UK, How many people in the US? Now adjust those figures for population difference.
http://porcupinenine.blogspot.com/

[LRPV]

I seem to recall this same debate...UK vs US ....'gun-control' on Mp.net.

It'll go pro-gun versus anti-gun. Improbable statistics will be thrown about. Implausible comparisons will be drawn. The only winner will be the post counter...

[Royal]

And have you ever seen these devices firing more than once or twice without exploding or jamming? You must know very lucky people all around the world.

Did I say that they all worked? No. However the idiot that sawed both the but and barrel from a PPSh41 survived - although he hit f.all.


If you mean that any idiot can take a steel tube with more or less an adeguate calibre, put some ammo in it, and strike the primer with a nail and a hammer, sure it's true. But I doubt that this thing can be called a "gun". It's more a suicide instrument. I thought we were talking about functional guns, not devices that sometimes can shoot something - and certainly they can't shoot a 9x19 ammo, with pressures around 2500 bars...).

Let me give you two easily reasearched items. The PPSh 43 (designed and produced during the seige of Leningrad) and the Zagi (produced in similar circumstances in Croatia). All built on home and light industrial machine shops - and all perfectly effective (to about 50m p-)). Also, look at the incidence of illegaly manufactured silencers/surpressors in the US (and elsewhere) - they are (from an engineering point of view) far more difficilt to make than a functioning SMG, if you don't believe me, field strip a PPSh 41 and have a look at the insides.


No, I just mean that we should put these people in jail and stop masturbating about requisitions of airsoft guns in the kids' room and "reactivated" weapons. What's next: slings and rubber bands requisitions? These too can shoot projectiles, and even "live ammo" (using them as blunt instruments, of course).

The William Greenwood case - as noted by BugHunt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/3543887.stm


I seem to recall this same debate...UK vs US ....'gun-control' on Mp.net.

It'll go pro-gun versus anti-gun. Improbable statistics will be thrown about. Implausible comparisons will be drawn. The only winner will be the post counter...

Wrong. As DW and I have both stated - we were handgun owners ourselves. The issue is about reducing the flow of illgeal weapons to criminals - not stopping it, that's impossible.

[Calanen]

Tell me where I might find them? Don't know about where you live but here it's pretty dam hard to get an illegal weapon. And whats more I grew up (my parents still reside) in Australia's poorest, most crime infested suburb.

It is for you and I, because we are 'normal' people. I wouldn't know where to even start. But for people who mix in those circles, it does not appear to be so hard. At least from what the Police I have spoken to told me concerning what they find on the crims, and in the reported cases I have read.

[11 Bravo]

Not just any "cretin" can manage such work with a lathe. A deac or 8mm blank toy can be made live in half an hour....I really beg to differ on that farce.The 9x19 pistol cartridge if so chambered in ANY half hour conversion hack would if at all possible to fire this cartridge in this scenario cause said toy to come apart.
Old spec deacs may be more readily converted back to live status , but getting the parts is the bugbear as they are nearly illegal as the guns themselves.The newer spec deacs are pretty much scrap metal as they are intended to be. If you can get a cretin with a lathe to make one of these go bang in half an hour I'll eat yours' and my hat too !.
The toys/replicas converted to a "live" round to my knowledge all have been in 22 rimfire caliber and some in 25 ACP - neither of which are high pressure and fairly common cartridges around the world - especially europe.
These thugs can sleeve a replica barrel and the cylinders of replica revolvers and make a very cheap and marginally effective pistol with the two calibers I mentioned. Try that with a 9mm or even a 32 ACP and you will have bits of diecast potmetal flying about !.
Anyhow this is a rarity when encountered by the british police.There is no shortage of real guns in this world...if some people want them even in the nanny state... they will obtain them/
So much technical and propaganda nonsense spouted in threads like this.

8 point infraction ?.
Reason: Comitted verbal attack on other member or moderator

So in reading posts over I see because you feel I slighted your country by referring to it as a nanny state..which phrase is used here often by citizens of your country and I don't see them being picked out on it. Please peruse the link attached for some more reading on the subject.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255585

[Hollis]

11Bravo, You may get the lack of Situation Awareness award. Insulting another's country is not a wise thing to do. Then "whining" about it. Best would have been to PM the mod, rather than fart in public.


Ok, I am not the best at explaining this.

[11 Bravo]

11Bravo, You may get the lack of Situation Awareness award. Insulting another's country is not a wise thing to do. Then "whining" about it. Best would have been to PM the mod, rather than fart in public.


Ok, I am not the best at explaining this.


Hollis , I usually don't give a hoot about such things. I felt his taking insult to his country ( alleged ) a bit personal as I see that phrase used here often , not to mention real garbage against my country. Seems to me to have been a bit brash on his part.
Oh well , I need to breakdown and clean an AR and a CZ75.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Hollis , I usually don't give a hoot about such things. I felt his taking insult to his country ( alleged ) a bit personal as I see that phrase used here often , not to mention real garbage against my country. Seems to me to have been a bit brash on his part.
Oh well , I need to breakdown and clean an AR and a CZ75.

You might as well clean the entire collection, you've got a two week break in which to do it!

[GunnerBhoy]

quit being a sissy.


Thank you for your intelligent input into this discussion......:roll:

[perdurabo]

In a Home Office study of 106 "firearms," 71 were "real firearms," 4 were "converted imitation firearms," and 1 was a "reactivated firearm."


so guys you are arguing about less than 4% of guns on streets? geez you guys are nuts :cantbeli:there is much bigger problem, how those 71 guns got on the streets and how to stop it...

[Geezah]

Other thing, How many people in the UK, How many people in the US? Now adjust those figures for population difference.
http://porcupinenine.blogspot.com/

Exactly, you cannot compare like for like, as the population size isn't even comparable, it's percentages that count. You need to also take into account that firearms int he UK are so heavily restricted or banned the firearms that are on the street should not be. It's just the laws passed down only affected the law abiding. This is a major point that lider seems to ignore.