The USS Liberty attack

[RealUltimatePower]

I just heard about this the other day and was frankly very surprised. In 1967 the USS Liberty, a intelligence-gathering ship was attacked by Isreali fighters off the coast of Gaza. This was during the six day war. From what I've read it seems Israel appologized for the attack calling it an accident. But I've also read what seem to be survivors' accounts and the accounts of the Isreali pilots. They say that the planes were unmarked and that they straffed the liferafts after having torpedoed the ship repeatedly. Some pilots have come forward and said they knew they were attacking an American ship.
Does anyone know more about this or if this is news to you as well you can just put USS Liberty in the search engine and find a lot of sites.

[XASA]

The Liberty was a vessel outfitted by the U.S. Navy Security Group to conduct SIGINT for NSA during the Six Day War. It was not only attacked by Israeli fighters but also Israeli gunboats. The Israelis claimed that they mistook the clearly marked ship, which was also flying the American flag, for a Egyptian horse carrier! Dozens were killed and wounded. Conjecture was the Israelis wanted to keep U.S. intelligence in the dark about its war plans as the ship had the potential to monitor both Arab and Israeli forces. Also, help from an aircraft carrier stationed nearby was delayed for unknown political reasons. Due to not wanting to upset American-Israeli relations and the highly classified nature of the Liberty's mission, the crew was not allowed to discuss the attack for years. The Liberty's captain was awarded the Medal of Honor for keeping the ship afloat despite being wounded, the XO the Navy Cross posthumously, and the crew several Silver and Bronze Stars. I don't believe the Israelis ever paid any reparations to those families who lost love ones. I read a book on the attack a few years ago--sorry but I can't remember the title--as some of the security has been lifted. There was also a History Channel program covering it. Sad day for America. http://ussliberty.org

[He219]

I read someplace that the Israelis used napalm on the Liberty.

[Cpl Stumps]

I saw that History Channel show. They said that fighters had been scrambled from a U.S. Aircraft Carrier nearby but that they were re-called for unknown reasons. I believe I remember one of the survivors saying that their attackers had the Israeli flag visible on the gunboats and the aircraft that attacked it and that they relayed this information over the radio before it got knocked out. Eventually after losing communications with the ship other American Ships were dispatched to assist but not in time to stop the attack or provide defense.

[Trident-za]

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm?nl=061803

Intersting article- suggests that it wasn't an accident, the Pentagon knew this, and covered it up. I've read a similar one by one of the survivors (can't find the link right now)

[Vance]

Isreal says it was a mistake and there was no US flag, but the members on board clearly remember putting it up, even the guy that physically raised it.

[Trident-za]

"The first casaulty in war is truth".

[Duke]

When I was a kid my old man told me of this incident. He said the following. Before the Israeli attack, the Liberty's skipper sought assistance from a nearby carrier TF. (Remember this is a Crypto-ship with all sorts of COMINT, ELINT, SIGINT etc capabilities. The ship knows when a beer can is floating 100 yards portside.) The carrier refused to send support "on orders". That meant someone higher up barred any support, be it ship or aircraft, to the Liberty. The ADM of the carrier TF, however, demanded CINCPAC's confirmation of the order. (When an order is construed as a direliction, an officer MAY ask for confirmation. So, an officer can ask his immediate CO if he can ask his CO if the order in question is valid. This action "theoritically" can go up the entire chain of command to the President himself. In the case of the carrier, this actually happened. (so says the old bulls) The TF ADM's request went all the way to SECDEF McNamara, and when the ADM requested confirmation to THE CINC, McNamara would only say, "The President agrees."
I'm not one to gossip, but...

[GazB]

The account I read stated that the Israelis knew it was an american intel ship. That is why it was attacked. What the Israelis feared was that the Americans might find out that the Israelis themselves were using american supplied equipment to fool the arabs. Basically the Israelis were intercepting arab messages and changing them so that each arab state thought the others involved were doing much better than they actually were, so that arab states not involved fully in the war would not apply more forces or aid other arab states more. The account I read suggested this violated an Israeli US agreement... not because the US wanted the Israelis to lose as such, but they were planing to use similar tactics in any future war with the Soviets and didn't want to give away the game.

The attack itself involved Israeli Mirage fighters firing 30mm cannon and 68mm unguided rockets. (Vs two .50 cal HMGs on the Liberty).
Later several Israeli gunboats joined and added 40mm bofors guns, but also most critically torpedoes. Of those killed, the vast majority were killed by one torpedo hit... I seem to remember a number like 135 killed and wounded (the wounded included the captain).

At this point the Israelis claim to have spotted the "stars and stripes" through the smoke, though the article I read suggested they had intercepted a transmission from the USS Littlerock and a carrier battlegroup saying the Littlerock was on its way as were several F-14s.

Israeli Puma helos offered assistance but the captain of the liberty told them to "go Fuk themselves", which I think it quite understandable.

After that the US decided weakly armed intel ships were a bad idea and have used nuclear subs or destroyers etc since.

[Trigger]

several F-14s
More likely F-4 Phantoms.
Not flamin' ya Gaz, just being nit-picky. :D

[martinexsquaddie]

There was an article suggesting that the Israels were desperate to cover up a massacre of Egyptian POWs thats what the attack was about.

[CPLHUNTER]

Just happened upon this thread.

The attack on the Liberty seems to have the necessary elements of a good coverup.

I would like to hear from some of our Israeli members about their thoughts on this issue.

We already know that the entire crew of the Liberty believes that the attack was deliberate. At the time, Israel's primary military ally was France, not the US.

Aside from a few exceptions, the US refused weapons sales to Israel until around 1970 I believe.

I find it interesting that the Captain is the only person to recieve the Medal of Honor from some else than the president. It was given in a private ceremony at an obsure location.

The big question is why? Alot of people have come up w/ some pretty crazy ideas ranging from hiding a massacre of enemy troops to a secret deal between Israel & the US to destroy the ship and blame on the Egyptians.

The most logical conclusion seems to be that the ship was attacked in order to prevent it from learning of the Israeli plan for the attack on Golan Heights and attempting to interfere.

In the fog of war maybe it could have been a mistake. But since virtually the entire crew says it was deliberate, I have a hard time believing that they got together and made up the same story to bash Israel.

This doesn't however make Israel the big evil Zionist state. Many people try to use this incident to attack Israel and show how bad they are...now if this happened today when we are tight allies w/ Israel then I would wonder WTF

[S'13]

Memos show Liberty attack was an error

By Nathan Guttman

WASHINGTON - New documents released this week by America's National Security Agency support Israel's version of a long-festering controversy between the two countries: Israel's shelling of an American spy ship, the USS Liberty, off the coast of Gaza during the 1967 Six-Day War.

Israel has always said it had no idea the ship was American, but conspiracy theorists and anti-Israel propagandists still claim Israel struck the ship in the full knowledge that it was American.

The documents, originally defined as top secret, were made public by Florida Judge Jay Cristol, who has been investigating the Liberty incident for years and published a book on the subject last year. On Monday, the NSA gave him a transcript of conversations held by two Israeli Air Force helicopter pilots who were hovering over the Liberty after it was hit, and these tapes confirm Israel's claim that the attack on the ship, which killed 34 American servicemen and wounded 171, was a tragic error.

After the Liberty was bombed by both the Israel Air Force and the Israel Navy, the two helicopter pilots were summoned from their base to assess the damage and evaluate the possibility of rescuing the surviving crew members. An American spy plane, which had been sent to the area as soon as the NSA learned of the attack, recorded their conversations, which took place between 2:30 and 3:37 P.M. on June 8, the third day of the war.

The spy plane also recorded the orders radioed to the pilots by their supervisor at Hatzor Base, which instructed them to search for Egyptian survivors from the "Egyptian warship" that had just been bombed - thus supporting Israel's claim that it had believed the ship was Egyptian when it ordered it attacked. "Pay attention. The ship is now identified as Egyptian," the pilots were told.

Nine minutes later, Hatzor informed the pilots that it was not an Egyptian warship, but an Egyptian cargo ship. Only at 3:07 were the pilots first informed that the ship might not have been Egyptian at all: Hatzor told them that if they found Arabic-speaking survivors, they should be taken to El-Arish, but if they found English-speaking survivors, they should be taken to Lod. "Clarify by the first man that you bring up, what nationality he is, and report to me immediately," the supervisor instructed, according to the transcript. "It's important to know."

Then, at 3:12, one of the pilots informed Hatzor that he saw an American flag flying over the wounded ship. He was asked to investigate and determine whether it was really an American ship.

This is not the first time such transcripts have been made public: Israel gave its own recordings of the pilots' conversations to the British television station Thames in 1987. But conspiracy theorists charged that Israel had doctored the tapes before handing them over to the station in order to hide the fact that it struck at the Liberty intentionally. No such imputation can be made about these new transcripts, as they were never in Israeli hands.

Israel has always said it attacked the Liberty, which America sent to the region to gather intelligence on the progress of the war, because it believed it was an Egyptian supply ship ferrying supplies to the Egyptian troops that Israel was then fighting. When it discovered the error, it immediately informed the Americans, apologized and paid compensation to the victims' families.

The incident was investigated by inquiry commissions in both Israel and the United States, and both concluded that it had, indeed, been a tragic error. Nevertheless, the controversy never died. In 1979, one of the survivors, James Ennes, published a book accusing Israel of bombing the American ship deliberately. Ennes claimed an Israeli spy plane had hovered over the ship all morning and had surely identified it as American, since the American flag was clearly visible. A later book, written by James Bamford, charged that Israel hit the ship in order to keep America from learning of its plans to attack Syria, and further claimed that the NSA had tapes of conversations among Israeli pilots that not only confirmed this, but also proved that the tapes released by Israel had been doctored.

Another claim that appears frequently on the dozens of Internet sites devoted to the affair is that Israel hit the ship to conceal a mass murder of Egyptian soldiers on the Sinai peninsula.

In its letter to Cristol, the NSA stressed that, contrary to the claims that often appear in such books and Web sites - that the agency has tapes from both the Liberty and from a nearby American submarine that confirm Israel's guilt - the only tapes that exist were those made by the spy plane and given to Cristol this week.

"It's the last piece of intelligence that remained classified, and every rational person that will read it will understand that there is no truth in these conspiracy theories against Israel," Cristol said yesterday. But he added: "Those who hate Israel, who hate Jews, and those who believe in conspiracy will not be convinced by anything."

Cristol, a former U.S. navy pilot and legal officer, began investigating the Liberty incident 14 years ago. Since publishing his book, which vindicates Israel, he has received threats and been accused of being an Israeli agent. "I take this lightly, but I am saddened to learn that there is this kind of hate toward Israel," he said.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y



Nuff said...

[kineret]

a clear case of friendly fire, considering there were a number of egyptian and russian ships in the water that had very similar profiles. Seeing a rather small flag is not exactly easy when you are fighter pilot, that has to fly and multi task after 48 straight hours of combat and no sleep.

the usual theorists come out with the egyptian POW massacre non-sense (wheres the proof of this 'massacre') and other interesting and creative tales to make a clear war tragedy into something that its not.

[Hollis]

A Judge in Florida reviewed the tapes that recorded the event which were released not so long ago (they were classified), and rendered a opinion on this. Contary to the History channel story (the one I saw) the story did not bare the facts of the CASE. This story became a high profile piece of propaganda against the Israelis.

Also there was a article that was release a little after the judge's opinion with a interview with the Israeli piolet. One of his comments noone has ever asked for is version of what happened or interviewed him from the US media. A key factor in this situation.

In the tapes that were released, his voice is heard and what he said is known.

Bottom line this was a terrible accident. Tremendous lack of communication and coordination between the US and Israel.

But it is still used as a major propaganda piece for the anti_Israelis.

[Kaplanr]

. . . The ADM of the carrier TF, however, demanded CINCPAC's confirmation of the order. (When an order is construed as a direliction, an officer MAY ask for confirmation. . .

Why would he want the CINCPAC's conformation? That's Commander IN Chief PACific.

[CPLHUNTER]

I'm not trying to start sh1t here, but why did virtually all the entire crew say that they were attacked on purpose?

I'm more than open to opposing points of view on this subject but you have to admit that there is alot of good evidence on both sides of the fence.

[S'13]

I'm not trying to start sh1t here, but why did virtually all the entire crew say that they were attacked on purpose?


Of course they were attacked on purpose... Israeli forces attacked them on purpose thinking the were an enemy vessel and that's the crux of the matter.

[Hollis]

I'm not trying to start sh1t here, but why did virtually all the entire crew say that they were attacked on purpose?

I'm more than open to opposing points of view on this subject but you have to admit that there is alot of good evidence on both sides of the fence.

I have been in and know of several friendly fire incidents, Sure seem they ment it when your on the receiving end.

1) gernade killed Pvt Johnson of India Co 3/3 June '69
2) August '69 9 rounds from USA arty hit the CP group of Lema 3/3 killing 3 Marines and two Corpsman
3)July '69, My company again India 3/3 on a large horseshoe shaped ridge, the front element saw the rear element, some one thought the other was Bac Biet (NVA) fire fight opened up, one Marine wounded.

Also a Friend who as a Army Medic told of a divison size ambush (something like that) Hammer/anvil ambushed went wrong, Charlie did not go along with the ambush, when the Hammer and Anvil met there were only US and ARVN troops, and firefight erupted, Killing anfd wounding a number of friendlies. Those wounded want to get back into fight for payback. This was US vs US troops the year was around '66-67, I will have to ask him the units and dates.

[CPLHUNTER]

Of course they were attacked on purpose... Israeli forces attacked them on purpose thinking the were an enemy vessel and that's the crux of the matter.

I should have been more clear:

Why did virtually all the entire crew say that they were attacked on purpose after being clear that it was an American ship?

[Hollis]

http://hnn.us/articles/369.html

This is the review from Judge Cristol when all the records were released.

Also some where is the recording of the Israel Piolet prior, during and at the disengage of the attack.

[CPLHUNTER]

Thanks for link, I now have something to read on my lunch break

[S'13]

I should have been more clear:

Why did virtually all the entire crew say that they were attacked on purpose after being clear that it was an American ship?

How could the crew know that they recognized them as a U.S ship?

I'm sorry to say, but it's ridiculous that people view them some sort of an authority that can determine whether it was a deliberate or not. Especially considering all the investigations that were carried out and reached the same conclusion.

[BlackRain]

The Liberty incident has been debated ad nausem in the past here (check the archives) resulting nothing but eventual flames wars.

The only ones who know what happened on the USS Liberty are the survivors and there position on what happened is clear.

Trivia: The only person not to receive the Medal of Honor from a US president was the commander of the USS Liberty. It was awarded in private.

[CPLHUNTER]

The Liberty incident has been debated ad nausem in the past here (check the archives) resulting nothing but eventual flames wars.

The only ones who know what happened on the USS Liberty are the survivors and there position on what happened is clear.

Trivia: The only person not to receive the Medal of Honor from a US president was the commander of the USS Liberty.

So I have seen. I've read both sides of this story and will maintain my own opinion.

Israel said they're sorry and paid out 13 mill so I guess that closes the case.

I'm on to another thread

Thanks for all the info from both sides, very interesting

[S'13]

The only ones who know what happened on the USS Liberty are the survivors and there position on what happened is clear.

How the heck could they know what happend? Because they were the ones getting shelled?

Considering this I'd say they had a very narrow view of the whole event (all they knew at the time was that they were being attacked).

I doubt they had some sort of supernatural ability to know what went on in the minds of the pilots.

This is ridiculous...

[dangerclose]

Israel's motivation for knowingly attacking its ONLY ally in the world? At the time there was real fear that the Soviets would get involved on behalf of Syria and Egypt so why in the world would Israel purposely antagonize the U.S. - again, it's only ally and the only reason the Soviets would hesitate to jump in the war?

Fact is, the USS Liberty was an unannounced warship in the middle of a war zone. Friendly fire accidents have happened under more clearer circumstances.

While we're at it .. I want to know the real story behind U.S. apaches killing British troops when they fired on their APCs in the first Gulf War or U.S. fighter pilots bombing Canadian troops in afghanistan when they were expressly denied the permission to fire? How do we really know they were accidents? </lunacy>


You can't fix any sane or logical motive to Israel attacking the Liberty other than it being an honest mistake.

[Hollis]

Step back and look at the big picture. 1967 Middle of the cold war. WHY would Israel attack it's major ally?

Now if Israel was intent on commiting suicide that would make some sort of sense.

Anti Israelis say it was to conceal Israel from mass execution of Egyptian Soldiers. That has been proven to have never happened.

Some of the major facts of the case was not released until recently (last few years) Which encluded the Tape from the Israeli piolet. Those facts clearing demonstrated what happened.


The Crew perception is understandable to me, I already posted the friendly fire incidents that I was in or knew about.

I agree with Blackrain, this is a dead horse that has beaten ad infinitum (SP)

[BlackRain]

How the heck could they know what happend? Because they were the ones getting shelled?

Considering this I'd say they had a very narrow view of the whole event (all they knew at the time was that they were being attacked).

I doubt they had some sort of supernatural ability to know what went on in the minds of the pilots.

This is ridiculous...

The crews had those most accurate view of what happened. They stated that the US flag was flown, they were reconned at low level prior to the attack, and that they were machine gunned while trying to get into life boats, etc, etc. They also monitored the radio traffic of the attack. The very definnition of HUMINT and ELINT or first person witness.


U.S. Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Walsh's article adds, had said there was "every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined one hour before the attack."



The Navy captain heard survivors' testimonies that the Israelis even shot up the Liberty's lifeboats after they were lowered into the waters to save the crew. That testimony was excised from the official record at some point after it left Boston's hands. (The tattered rafts now are proudly displayed in an Israeli museum.)

[Hollis]

Black Rain, not to belabor the point, The Israel Piolet recoding going into the attack, during the attack and after is now available. Also a recent interview with him.

What was apparent to the Crew was not so to the Piolet.

One of the greatest military oxymorons is "friendly Fire"

edited to add, I googled "US Navy" + "friendly fire", interesting results, one quote stated FF in RVN was 5,000 incidents. Planes shot down, ships and subs sunk.

[S'13]

The crews had those most accurate view of what happened.

No they didn't.

Actually there's no such thing as "most accurate" view in these kinds of things. Just like the pilots, they were limited to what they knew and saw.

That's why investigations are carried out with the aim of taking all the different peices of information at hand in order to make up the most accurate picture of what happend.



They stated that the US flag was flown


And according to the pilots they unable to notice it. Maybe due to there being no wind, or because Liberty was steaming with the wind at the same speed that the wind was blowing.



they were reconned at low level prior to the attack


Israel acknowledged the ship had been identified as American and neutral the previous day; however, it claims that at 11 a.m., the ship moved out of the status board. An hour later, when explosions were heard in El-Arish, Israel claims to have reacquired the ship without being aware that it was the same one that was flown over the day before.



and that they were machine gunned while trying to get into life boats etc


And? Still doesn't prove that they were identified as Americans.



They also monitored the radio traffic of the attack


And what did this reveal?

[Clarsachier]

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm?nl=061803

Intersting article- suggests that it wasn't an accident, the Pentagon knew this, and covered it up. I've read a similar one by one of the survivors (can't find the link right now)


Here's the survivors' home page

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Here's a few lmore inks ,

http://www.thelibertyincident.com/

This one's real good

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

At the time, the relationship with Israel was an integral part of the U.S.'s Cold War policy to contain the USSR's control of the oil region. It's certainly a good time to bring the truth to light.... It shows the lengths Israel will go to keep a lid on their 'activities'.

[S'13]

Here's the survivors' home page

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Here's a few lmore inks ,

http://www.thelibertyincident.com/

This one's real good

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

At the time, the relationship with Israel was an integral part of the U.S.'s Cold War policy to contain the USSR's control of the oil region. It's certainly a good time to bring the truth to light.... It shows the lengths Israel will go to keep a lid on their 'activities'.

The truth is out there! rofl

[American Patriot]

That explains everything then. Very tragic incident and regrettable for the israelis

[Chuckie]

Here's a picture showing the Liberty and the Egyptian ship it was mistaken for. Draw your own conclusions.

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7100/samosamo4eu.gif

[kineret]

Here's the survivors' home page

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Here's a few lmore inks ,

http://www.thelibertyincident.com/

This one's real good

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

At the time, the relationship with Israel was an integral part of the U.S.'s Cold War policy to contain the USSR's control of the oil region. It's certainly a good time to bring the truth to light.... It shows the lengths Israel will go to keep a lid on their 'activities'.


bwahahaha, from one of your official 'sources'

"After ten official US investigations (including five congressional
investigations), there was never any evidence that the attack was made with knowledge that the target was a US ship."

its one thing to have genuine interest in something and enquire about it to obtain the implicit truth. its quiet another to have an clear agenda, refute facts and recordings and bend them to fit your own theory. This is pretty much what the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs do in their hard hitting 'documentaries'.

[Hollis]

I wonder if CLar and the other ever listen to the recording of the Pilot that was recently released becuase it was classified?

I DOUBT IT.

Also did they review the other declassified Information?

I DOUBT IT.

WHY... Because it does not fit into their anti-Israeli BS.

[BlackRain]

I wonder if CLar and the other ever listen to the recording of the Pilot that was recently released becuase it was classified?

I DOUBT IT.

Also did they review the other declassified Information?

I DOUBT IT.

WHY... Because it does not fit into their anti-Israeli BS.


You meant this Israeli pilot?

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up


Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role.

According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack," he insists.

Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews.

Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.

A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.

Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

[kineret]

You meant this Israeli pilot?

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up


Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role.

According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack," he insists.

Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews.

Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.

A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.

Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

great source!

1. what was the pilots name, how do we know that this pilot is real and not another 'totally true and believable fact' created by the anti-israel crowd?

2. how does this shady looking text compare with official recorded tapes of communications between IAF pilots during the attack?

3. what could be a single possible reason for IAF to attack its only ally?? Why would they do this??

[S'13]

You meant this Israeli pilot?

Israeli Pilot Speaks Up



BS...



Pilot who bombed 'Liberty' talks to Post

Arieh O'Sullivan

An Israeli pilot who mistakenly attacked the American intelligence ship USS Liberty during the 1967 Six Day War said they were lucky he had no bombs – otherwise he would have sunk her.

"There was a mistake. Mistakes happen. As far as I know, the mistake was of the USS Liberty being there in the first place," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Yiftah Spector.

After 36 years Spector, who this week was dismissed by the IAF for signing the pilots' refusal letter protesting the policy of targeted killings, agreed to speak to a reporter for the first time on his role in the attack on the Liberty, an American spy ship strafed on the fourth day of the war.

Flying a Mirage III fighter jet code named "Kursa" or couch, Spector was the first pilot to reach the ship, which was about 20 nautical miles west of Gaza. He had been on an air-to-air mission and was not loaded with bombs.

Spector, now 63, went on to become a triple ace, shooting down 15 enemy aircraft, and take part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, earning himself a place in the pantheon of Israeli fly boys. This week he ended a 20-year stint teaching new generations of pilots.

Spector had always refused to discuss the attack on the USS Liberty, which killed 34 US sailors and wounded 172, or even be revealed as the pilot who led the attack on her. Until now.

"I did not fire on the Liberty as a human target. I was sent to attack a sailing vessel. This ship was on an escape route from the El Arish area, which at that same moment had heavy smoke rising from it," Spector said.

"It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did not have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of ours. I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck," he told The Jerusalem Post. "This was not there, so it wasn't one of ours."

The concern of the IAF was that Spector and his wingman, who had been diverted from the Suez Canal, would strike one of the Israel Navy ships in pursuit of the vessel, which was assumed to be Egyptian. IAF archival recordings of the pilots' radio transmission of the actual attack obtained by the Post show that Spector was specifically requested to verify that the ship was a military vessel and not Israeli.

According to the June 8, 1967, radio transmission, Spector said: "I can't identify it but in any case it's a military ship."

Speaking of the event 36 years later may have caused Spector to mix what he remembered with what he may have read and his testimony does not always match archival facts.

"I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag. Just to make sure I photographed it," said Spector, who retired from active duty as a brigadier-general in 1984.

Experts intimately acquainted with the incident said that the only photos Spector took were from his gun-sight camera during his strafing run. Regardless of whether the 455-foot ship bristling with eavesdropping antennas flew a US flag, which it evidently did from its starboard halyard, that banner was shot off in Spector's first strafing pass.

"I was told on the radio that it was an Egyptian ship off the Gaza coast. Hit it. The luck of the ship was that I was armed only with light ammunition [30mm] against aircraft. If I had had a bomb it would be sitting on the bottom today like the Titanic. I promise you," Spector said.

The 30mm rounds were armor piercing, which to this day led Liberty survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. Spector's first pass ignited a fire which caused the ship to billow black smoke. Ironically, Spector transmitted he suspected the Liberty was putting out smoke to deliberately mask itself.

"Every order is given by commanders and the last one to receive it has to decide whether he will pull the trigger or not. In this instance I was the fighter. I checked what I had to check [i.e. that it was a military ship and not one of ours] and pulled the trigger," Spector said.

"The crew should be thankful for their luck [that I was on an air-to-air mission and did not have any bombs]. It is a pity we attacked. I'm sorry for poor Capt. (William Loren) McGonagle, who was wounded in the leg and the other guys who were killed and wounded."

"I'm sorry for the mistake. Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked," Spector said. "I'm the last guy who has a problem with admitting mistakes and asking for forgiveness. There was a mistake, but it wasn't my mistake."

He added he remains baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.

"I know that after the war one of the first things that was done was the establishment of a [US] senator's inquiry. I know this personally, because I was called upon to testify before it. They came to the country and I was questioned. I told them what I told you just now – that there was a mistake. I am sorry for the mistake. In war mistakes happen," Spector said.

He said that he had never in the past 36 years ever met with any of the Liberty survivors, but has no qualms about doing so now.

"They must understand that a mistake was made here," Spector said. "The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints."


/////

[Hollis]

You meant this Israeli pilot?



hate to say this, you got suckered punched on this.

When the document were declassified, all of this was reopened. Without the documents the anti-Israeli propaganda seem to work.

The Judge in Florida review all the information and rendered a opinion. The opinion very much said up to the declassification of those documents most conculsions were wrong. That is was a terrible mistake, lack of communication, misscommuniation, lack of coordination.

[Clarsachier]

kineret]bwahahaha, from one of your official 'sources'

I truly understand your amusment. Even when you kill innocent U.S. servicemen, biting the hand that feeds you, some of us are too stupid to believe it.

"
After ten official US investigations (including five congressional
investigations), there was never any evidence that the attack was made with knowledge that the target was a US ship."

Most knowlegable people are aware of the position of the U.S. in the '60s' which was again, to use Israel as a tool to prevent USSR's influence in the region.

While some may readily believe in the Israeli pilots stupidity in not seeing
American markings, given the IDF's recent marksmanship, it doesn't pass
logical analysis.

You can take a look at the Israeli patrol boat passing by the Liberty during from the USN website the attack to blow the 'missidentification' excuse off the map. I bet you have a great excuse for that one! :)

Additionally, this boat fired on the life rafts. see ; Attack on the Life Rafts
http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06-2.htm


its one thing to have genuine interest in something and enquire about it to obtain the implicit truth. its quiet another to have an clear agenda, refute facts and recordings and bend them to fit your own theory. This is pretty much what the 9/11 conspiracy nutjobs do in their hard hitting 'documentaries'.

And it's another thing to be a propaganda orafice spewing Israeli propaganda.

A 9/11 conspiracy reference! Nice! (Except that you use it every day!)

This ain't a theory, my man ;

From the U.S. Naval Institute

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm

"The board of inquery concluded that the (Israelis) knew exactly what they were doing when they attacked the Liberty." CIA Director Richard Helms

It's so ridiculously easy to refute your ME propaganda today with official data that you're really making it a pleasure!

[PELASGOS]

[QUOTE=S'13]How could the crew know that they recognized them as a U.S ship?



From USS Liberty's huge American flag - here it is:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html

[kineret]

I truly understand your amusment. Even when you kill innocent U.S. servicemen, biting the hand that feeds you, some of us are too stupid to believe it.


screw you for even suggesting this. I wasnt laughing at this incident you idiot, i was laughing at the source which claims to be 'impartial' which is laughable if you look at the site's content and pictures.


"


Most knowlegable people are aware of the position of the U.S. in the '60s' which was again, to use Israel as a tool to prevent USSR's influence in the region.

what does this have to do with this particular friendly fire incident?



While some may readily believe in the Israeli pilots stupidity in not seeing
American markings, given the IDF's recent marksmanship, it doesn't pass
logical analysis.
I want to see your marksmanship skills after you fly for over 2 days of non stop combat missions, while fighting 3 countries on every border. Now you're just talking out of your ass.




You can take a look at the Israeli patrol boat passing by the Liberty during from the USN website the attack to blow the 'missidentification' excuse off the map. I bet you have a great excuse for that one! :)

Ahh the good old Armchair General 20/20 rearview vision analysis. You are right, it just sucks those IAF pilots didnt have a nice clean photograph photoshopped for lighting and clear effect to refer to.





And it's another thing to be a propaganda orafice spewing Israeli propaganda.

A 9/11 conspiracy reference! Nice! (Except that you use it every day!)

This ain't a theory, my man ;

From the U.S. Naval Institute

http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm

"The board of inquery concluded that the (Israelis) knew exactly what they were doing when they attacked the Liberty." CIA Director Richard Helms

It's so ridiculously easy to refute your ME propaganda today with official data that you're really making it a pleasure!

thats nice. How do you refute or disprove such 'propaganda' as recorded pilot transmissions between ground control and fighter pilots?? Or is that all propaganda too? The quote there is very nice too, from Helms, a man convicted of lying to Congress and convicted for 2 years in prison.

Richard McGarrah Helms (March 30, 1913 – October 23, 2002) was the Director of Central Intelligence (DCI) from 1966 to 1973. He was the only director to have been convicted of lying to Congress over Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) undercover activities.

Great source!

btw, please answer me these 3 basic fundamental questions since you seem to be so 100% convinced that Israel wanted to kill Americans so bad.

1. Why did Israel attack its only ally during a war in which they had enemies on all sides, and no war suppliers except for US?

2. Why didnt they sink the Liberty if they wanted to destroy it so badly? WHy call off the attack all of a sudden?

3. How do you explain for the comm transmissions between pilots and ground and the recorded interview of the pilot that participated in the attack, recorded facts that completetly refute any of your rubbish?

[Kaplanr]

I think it interesting that most of you will spend time on this, drawing conclusions about the double-crossing Jew Zionist power mongers, but wouldn't devote 1/4 of the time to the hows and whys of why the Liberty's sister ship was attacked and overpowered a year later (USS Pueblo).

It's right up front for you to see. The Liberty was attacked because it was a non-friendly warship in a warzone -- not because it was an American warship. Even if the flag was there? Are the Egyptians incapable of planting one on their own ships?

The whole Medal of Honor thing is ridiculous too. That in and of itself indicates the navy wanted to make the episode go-away because it points to some serious flaws in USN operational procedures at the time. What Einstein sends an unarmed or underarmed warship into a hot warzone?

[S'13]

How could the crew know that they recognized them as a U.S ship?



From USS Liberty's huge American flag - here it is:


http://www.mccullagh.org/image/10d-15/uss-liberty-flag.html

Ah, so the crew knew they had a flag on... good for them. :roll:


You see, that's where the fact that the pilots didn't notice it comes in.

[kineret]

what bugs me most is that these people have a clear agenda and no interest in what actually happened, despite all the recorded evidence and clear logical conclusions. There was absolutely no material, military or any other possible interest or benefit for Israel to attack and kill American military personnel and equipment other than the fact that they mistook it for an enemy ship.

Why must there always be something sinister or evil in anything thats being discussed in regards to Israel? pathetic.

[PELASGOS]

Declaration of

Ward Boston, Jr.,Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Counsel to the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry’s investigation into the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty

I, Ward Boston, Jr. do declare that the following statement is true and complete:

For more than 30 years, I have remained silent on the topic of USS Liberty. I am a military man and when orders come in from the Secretary of Defense and President of the United States, I follow them.

However, recent attempts to rewrite history compel me to share the truth.

In June of 1967, while serving as a Captain in the Judge Advocate General Corps, Department of the Navy, I was assigned as senior legal counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the brutal attack on USS Liberty, which had occurred on June 8th.

The late Admiral Isaac C. Kidd, president of the Court, and I were given only one week to gather evidence for the Navy’s official investigation into the attack, despite the fact that we both had estimated that a proper Court of Inquiry into an attack of this magnitude would take at least six months to conduct.

Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., then Commander-in-chief, Naval Forces Europe (CINCUSNAVEUR), at his headquarters in London, had charged Admiral Kidd (in a letter dated June 10, 1967) to “inquire into all the pertinent facts and circumstances leading to and connected with the armed attack; damage resulting therefrom; and deaths of and injuries to Naval personnel.”

Despite the short amount of time we were given, we gathered a vast amount of evidence, including hours of heartbreaking testimony from the young survivors.

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as “murderous bastards.” It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors, who had ordered the attack, were well aware that the ship was American.
I saw the flag, which had visibly identified the ship as American, riddled with bullet holes, and heard testimony that made it clear that the Israelis intended there be no survivors. 10. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded — a war crime.Admiral Kidd and I both felt it necessary to travel to Israel to interview the Israelis who took part in the attack. Admiral Kidd telephoned Admiral McCain to discuss making arrangements. Admiral Kidd later told me that Admiral McCain was adamant that we were not to travel to Israel or contact the Israelis concerning this matter.

Regrettably, we did not receive into evidence and the Court did not consider any of the more than sixty witness declarations from men who had been hospitalized and were unable to testify in person.

I am outraged at the efforts of the apologists for Israel in this country to claim that this attack was a case of “mistaken identity.” In particular, the recent publication of Jay Cristol’s book, The Liberty Incident, twists the facts and misrepresents the views of those of us who investigated the attack.

It is Cristol’s insidious attempt to whitewash the facts that has pushed me to speak out.

I know from personal conversations I had with Admiral Kidd that President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of “mistaken identity” despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Admiral Kidd told me, after returning from Washington, D.C. that he had been ordered to sit down with two civilians from either the White House or the Defense Department, and rewrite portions of the court’s findings.

Admiral Kidd also told me that he had been ordered to “put the lid” on everything having to do with the attack on USS Liberty. We were never to speak of it and we were to caution everyone else involved that they could never speak of it again.

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that statement as I know that the Court of Inquiry transcript that has been released to the public is not the same one that I certified and sent off to Washington.

I know this because it was necessary, due to the exigencies of time, to hand correct and initial a substantial number of pages. I have examined the released version of the transcript and I did not see any pages that bore my hand corrections and initials. Also, the original did not have any deliberately blank pages, as the released version does. Finally, the testimony of Lt. Painter concerning the deliberate machine gunning of the life rafts by the Israeli torpedo boat crews, which I distinctly recall being given at the Court of Inquiry and included in the original transcript, is now missing and has been excised.

Following the conclusion of the Court of Inquiry, Admiral Kidd and I remained in contact. Though we never spoke of the attack in public, we did discuss it between ourselves, on occasion. Every time we discussed the attack, Admiral Kidd was adamant that it was a deliberate, planned attack on an American ship.

In 1990, I received a telephone call from Jay Cristol, who wanted to interview me concerning the functioning of the Court of Inquiry. I told him that I would not speak to him on that subject and prepared to hang up the telephone. Cristol then began asking me about my personal background and other, non-Court of Inquiry related matters. I endeavored to answer these questions and politely extricate myself from the conversation. Cristol continued to return to the subject of the Court of Inquiry, which I refused to discuss with him. Finally, I suggested that he contact Admiral Kidd and ask him about the Court of Inquiry.

Shortly after my conversation with Cristol, I received a telephone call from Admiral Kidd, inquiring about Cristol and what he was up to. The Admiral spoke of Cristol in disparaging terms and even opined that “Cristol must be an Israeli agent.” I don’t know if he meant that literally or it was his way of expressing his disgust for Cristol’s highly partisan, pro-Israeli approach to questions involving USS Liberty.
At no time did I ever hear Admiral Kidd speak of Cristol other than in highly disparaging terms. I find Cristol’s claims of a “close friendship” with Admiral Kidd to be utterly incredible. I also find it impossible to believe the statements he attributes to Admiral Kidd, concerning the attack on USS Liberty.

Several years later, I received a letter from Cristol that contained what he purported to be his notes of our prior conversation. These “notes” were grossly incorrect and bore no resemblance in reality to that discussion. I find it hard to believe that these “notes” were the product of a mistake, rather than an attempt to deceive. I informed Cristol that I disagreed with his recollection of our conversation and that he was wrong. Cristol made several attempts to arrange for the two of us to meet in person and talk but I always found ways to avoid doing this. I did not wish to meet with Cristol as we had nothing in common and I did not trust him.

Contrary to the misinformation presented by Cristol and others, it is important for the American people to know that it is clear that Israel is responsible for deliberately attacking an American ship and murdering American sailors, whose bereaved shipmates have lived with this egregious conclusion for many years.


Dated: January 9, 2004
at Coronado, California.
Ward Boston, Jr., Captain, JAGC, USN (Ret.)
Senior Counsel to the USS Liberty Court of Inquiry

[Clarsachier]

kineret]screw you for even suggesting this. I wasnt laughing at this incident you idiot, i was laughing at the source which claims to be 'impartial' which is laughable if you look at the site's content and pictures.


Suuure you were.....

Screw you for lying about a cowardly attack against my countrymen and then
disrespecting the survivors' testamony. But keep it up as it's quite revealing about who you are.


what does this have to do with this particular friendly fire incident?

It was intentional, it wasn't friendly fire.


I want to see your marksmanship skills after you fly for over 2 days of non stop combat missions, while fighting 3 countries on every border. Now you're just talking out of your ass.

This marksmanship was okay, they hit a moving target twice with unaerodynamic freefall (Napalm cannisters.)

I was referring to the deaths of what, 16(?) Palestinian civs in the past week
as an anology to show that if you weren't actually trying to kill civs, you could indeed use the excuse of bad marksmanship in general by your armed forces.


Ahh the good old Armchair General 20/20 rearview vision analysis. You are right, it just sucks those IAF pilots didnt have a nice clean photograph photoshopped for lighting and clear effect to refer to.

I don't think that that description will effectively discount the comments of a CIA director.


thats nice. How do you refute or disprove such 'propaganda' as recorded pilot transmissions between ground control and fighter pilots?? Or is that all propaganda too? The quote there is very nice too, from Helms, a man convicted of lying to Congress and convicted for 2 years in prison.

Richard McGarrah Helms (March 30, 1913 – October 23, 2002) was the Director of Central Intelligence (DCI) from 1966 to 1973. He was the only director to have been convicted of lying to Congress over Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) undercover activities.

Could that be because of Watergte? :roll:


[QUOTE]Great source!

Refute these sources!

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/texts/support.txt


btw, please answer me these 3 basic fundamental questions since you seem to be so 100% convinced that Israel wanted to kill Americans so bad.

With pleasure.


1. Why did Israel attack its only ally during a war in which they had enemies on all sides, and no war suppliers except for US?

This is what I'd like to discuss. They were executing a policy which is in effect till this day - preventing at all means anyone knowing about Israels' atrocities against the Non-Jewish inhabitants of the region.


2. Why didnt they sink the Liberty if they wanted to destroy it so badly? WHy call off the attack all of a sudden?

Simply because that wasn't the purpose of the attack. Besides that there was too much risk that the aircraft from the U.S. battlefleet would arrive and
interdict the attack.


3. How do you explain for the comm transmissions between pilots and ground and the recorded interview of the pilot that participated in the attack, recorded facts that completetly refute any of your rubbish?

Firstly, those 'so called' original transcripts are completely refuted by NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby http://www.ussliberty.org/

Secondly who would accept reports from (foriegn) military organizations are
authentic. Especially when they're trying to excuse themselves from a cowardly attack on an 'ally' intel ship.

[Clarsachier]

I think it interesting that most of you will spend time on this, drawing conclusions about the double-crossing Jew Zionist power mongers, but wouldn't devote 1/4 of the time to the hows and whys of why the Liberty's sister ship was attacked and overpowered a year later (USS Pueblo).

It's right up front for you to see. The Liberty was attacked because it was a non-friendly warship in a warzone -- not because it was an American warship. Even if the flag was there? Are the Egyptians incapable of planting one on their own ships?

The whole Medal of Honor thing is ridiculous too. That in and of itself indicates the navy wanted to make the episode go-away because it points to some serious flaws in USN operational procedures at the time. What Einstein sends an unarmed or underarmed warship into a hot warzone?

Despite the use if the 'race card' I wouldn't have a problem with your comments about the incident, and probably wouldn't post.

But 'your colleagues' amature propaganda campaign using missdirection and
lies, drives me friggin crazy!!!!!

[kineret]

Suuure you were.....

Screw you for lying about a cowardly attack against my countrymen and then
disrespecting the survivors' testamony. But keep it up as it's quite revealing about who you are.



I am an American. I dont know who you are, but I do know that you are very fond of conspiracy theories and willfully ignorant of facts that all say otherwise.

[quote]

It was intentional, it wasn't friendly fire.






Could that be because of Watergte? :roll:


now youre just insulting my intelligence.
water gate now? whats next? was the sniper that shot Kennedy a Mossad hit man?




This is what I'd like to discuss. They were executing a policy which is in effect till this day - preventing at all means anyone knowing about Israels' atrocities against the Non-Jewish inhabitants of the region.


atrocities such as????

what atrocities? I dont even know why im replying to this steaming pile of bull****




Simply because that wasn't the purpose of the attack. Besides that there was too much risk that the aircraft from the U.S. battlefleet would arrive and
interdict the attack.


you really cant be this stupid, and im sure you arent, but are just playing dumb. #1 what battlefleet? what was in the vicinity that could arrive within 15-20 minutes to stop this 'predetermined attack'?
#2 why not just arm the fighters with surface bombs that are designed to destroy ships and sink the Liberty as fast as possible? why strafe them? (duh, because maybe they were on a CAP mission in a WARZONE, engaging an unidentified vessel)

#3 why did the pilots disengage as soon as they were made aware that the ship was american, even though no american fire support was anywhere in teh region? i can disprove your crackpot theories all day with ease, but you have an agenda and its rather pointless for me to go on and keep asking you these basic questions that you cannot answer.





Secondly who would accept reports from (foriegn) military organizations are
authentic. Especially when they're trying to excuse themselves from a cowardly attack on an 'ally' intel ship.


As I understand it, the Liberty itself has recordings of israeli comms talkign to each other in Hebrew, these recordings were backed up by the IAF recordings which were all translated. But you are offcourse free to go on constructing your fantasy scenario wihtout accepting the very basic fact that a US ship was strafed in a warzone due to misidentification (which happens in every war).

[Kaplanr]

Despite the use if the 'race card' I wouldn't have a problem with your comments about the incident, and probably wouldn't post.

But 'your colleagues' amature propaganda campaign using missdirection and
lies, drives me friggin crazy!!!!!

Whose use of the race card?

This is what I'd like to discuss. They were executing a policy which is in effect till this day - preventing at all means anyone knowing about Israels' atrocities against the Non-Jewish inhabitants of the region.


I'm not impressed with your position or language. It gives an impression of objective viewership, but isn't. I'll echo the question, what Battlefleet? 6th Fleet was nowhere nearby, which is what made the idea of lone US Navy ship in the region unusual.

As to all this talk about only ally etc., BS. The US hadn't assumed the role yet, and diplomatically had only taken the lead when the Straits of Tiran were closed and tried to organise and international armada to open them. When the idea collapsed, we were on our own. Unlike Europe and Japan, we weren't operatijng under any US umbrellas or alliances. We had some Patton tanks (via W. Germany), Hawk batteries and Skyhawks on order.

[Hollis]

This issued always puzzeled me, What seemed apparent did not make any sense at all. What was available and then the documentary only seem to confirm the worse case interpetation, Israel deliberately Attacked a US ship.

The reason's given such as hiding the massacre of Egyptian soldiers in the Sinai, I knew was BS.

There is no rational reason why Israel would have attack the US at such a dangerous time.

When the classified information was released over 35 years later some questions were answered. Obviously those clinging to their "I hate Israel position" or did not know about the release of new information maintian that Israel did it deliberately.

There is STILL no rational reason why Israel would have done a attack against the US being offered, no new facts nothing. BUT the released of the declassified information very clearly spelled out that it was a terribly mistake. There was NO evil intent, No reason except a mistake in identification and operational errors.

The new facts when combine with what was known present a very clear picture of what happened and why.

Of all the thousands of friendly fire issues this one issue is constantly being brought up, it does not serve the purpose to answer questions, to seek reconciliation, or to find justice, it's soul purpose is to "bash and malign Israel". To discredit any reason for the US to be allied with Israel. Again it is raised to the forefront to gain support for the enemies of Israel, our common enemies the terrorists.

[Clarsachier]

Whose use of the race card?

This one. How is it that you forget your own posts?


I think it interesting that most of you will spend time on this, drawing conclusions about the double-crossing Jew Zionist power mongers,


I'm not impressed with your position or language. It gives an impression of objective viewership, but isn't. I'll echo the question, what Battlefleet? 6th Fleet was nowhere nearby, which is what made the idea of lone US Navy ship in the region unusual.

Well in sofar an my language is concerned ;Am I to understand that you havn't noticed that this is a (very) informal American forum? Never the less m. Kaplanr, if it will 'impress' you for me to address you formally - I will concede.

The one that contained the carriers USS America (CVA-66) and Saratoga (CVA-60) which scrambled fighters when the U.S.S. Liberty got through Israeli Jamming.

Are you going to assert that the position of this fleet helps your assertion that the Israelis didn't know that U.S. ships were in the region.


As to all this talk about only ally etc., BS. The US hadn't assumed the role yet, and diplomatically had only taken the lead when the Straits of Tiran were closed and tried to organise and international armada to open them. When the idea collapsed, we were on our own. Unlike Europe and Japan, we weren't operatijng under any US umbrellas or alliances. We had some Patton tanks (via W. Germany), Hawk batteries and Skyhawks on order.

Unless I'm missing your logic, you seem to be saying that, 'since we wern't allies it didn't matter that we were Americans - we were fair game just by being in the area?

This is certainly a departure from the implausable 'we thought you were Egyptian' excuse. Please confirm. This will make the conversation much more
interesting.

[Stolly]

I can understand that the pilots of fast moving aircraft can mistake the USS Liberty for something else, but the skippers of other surface vessels ? Thats something else.

[S'13]

I can understand that the pilots of fast moving aircraft can mistake the USS Liberty for something else, but the skippers of other surface vessels ? Thats something else.

If I'm not mistaking the boats came when there was already smoke all around.

[Kaplanr]

I'm saying that the presumed and premature "allies" card adds a level of treachery that then gets to have an emotional appeal, rather than an intellectual one.

My racial or ethnic reference was to where this argument traditionally goes. The logical progression is infallible; if there's a coverup, why is there a coverup? Who's pulkling strings? Too many dots for me to connect, but one of the classic ones is that LBJ was willing to do anything to reduce American Jewish objections to the war in Vietnam, and to draw away American Jewish votes that he could se going to McCarthy, RFK or Hubert Humphrey.

As to your last point, as a matter of faact yeah. I'd say a strange warship (meaning not my own) in a hot theater of war is an open target. Especially if I'm under the impression that the war has mortal existensial consequences for me. Rightly or wrongly, the average Israeli went into the 6 Day War thinking that a victory wasn't an forgone conclusion. That the General Staff felt otherwise is at best 20-20 hindsight.

As to the 6th Fleet, it was anywhere from 450 - 600 miles away, 12-15 hours steaming time. (As estimated by USS Liberty crewman on their discussion board.) http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433

[PELASGOS]

Shortly after the Sixth Fleet transmission of the rules of engagement to its dispatched rescue aircraft, the Israeli torpedo boats suddenly broke off their attack and transmitted messages asking if USS Liberty required assistance.[


Give them an Academy Award

[Kaplanr]

Maybe we should arrange a reconciliation meeting between surviving Liberty crew and IDF personnel; like when they would get IJN and Pearl Harbor survivors together.

[Stolly]

If I'm not mistaking the boats came when there was already smoke all around.

Must have been a lot of smoke, yet i understand they fired on the ship ? Wouldn't that require line of sight ? Or no ?

[S'13]

Must have been a lot of smoke, yet i understand they fired on the ship ? Wouldn't that require line of sight ? Or no ?

There were naplams so I would imagine so.

There can still be enogh smoke to block the sight of the flag while not obscuring the whole ship.

[Clarsachier]

I'm saying that the presumed and premature "allies" card adds a level of treachery that then gets to have an emotional appeal, rather than an intellectual one.

My racial or ethnic reference was to where this argument traditionally goes. The logical progression is infallible; if there's a coverup, why is there a coverup? Who's pulkling strings? Too many dots for me to connect, but one of the classic ones is that LBJ was willing to do anything to reduce American Jewish objections to the war in Vietnam, and to draw away American Jewish votes that he could se going to McCarthy, RFK or Hubert Humphrey.

As to your last point, as a matter of faact yeah. I'd say a strange warship (meaning not my own) in a hot theater of war is an open target. Especially if I'm under the impression that the war has mortal existensial consequences for me. Rightly or wrongly, the average Israeli went into the 6 Day War thinking that a victory wasn't an forgone conclusion. That the General Staff felt otherwise is at best 20-20 hindsight.

As to the 6th Fleet, it was anywhere from 450 - 600 miles away, 12-15 hours steaming time. (As estimated by USS Liberty crewman on their discussion board.) http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433

I can't find the least fault with this explaination. The U.S.S. Pueblo reference especially, illustrates the U.S.'s (continuing) hubris putting intel vessels into danger. Presumably, under the assumption that no one would dare attack
us.

The 'indignant' outcry from the NSA and others after this logic failed is also indictive of that mindset. Well, I believe that the attack was deliberate. But I have a real hard time faulting the Israelis. Victory was most definately
not a forgone conclusion at that time.

You'll hear no more from me about this. But, is there really a museum in Israel
commemorating this attack and exhonorating the pilots? That's a little tacky
IMO.

[BlackRain]

hate to say this, you got suckered punched on this.

When the document were declassified, all of this was reopened. Without the documents the anti-Israeli propaganda seem to work.

This has nothing to do with anti-Israeli propoganda.

You either believe the crew and the Medal of Honor captain of the USS Liberty when they say they were deliberately attacked (http://www.ussliberty.org/voices.htm) or don't.

I was not there nor anyone on this forum.

I tend to believe my own countrymen who were wounded and unfortunately killed over a foreign powers explanation of why they attacked a US flagged vessel in international waters on a clear day.

If you think the USS Liberty crew men are liars, that is your problem.


"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

Most people here refuse to give any credence to the crews experience, which is sad -- but not unexpected in this forum.

[IDFM203]

Wow this again…….Anyways, from past debates that I have been in on this, I know this can go on and on though for me, I just want to respond to our favorite cut and pastor ;)


This has nothing to do with anti-Israeli propoganda.

You either believe the crew and the Medal of Honor captain . Or you can believe the Israeli fighter pilots who also have won medals from it’s nation for that say it was not deliberate!!

Taking away national loyalties and biases for a minute, as for intentions as to whether it is deliberate or not, who is supposed to know more, the one’s that are attacking and know their intentions or the one’s that are being attacked and do not know the attackers intentions at all?

(Now of course you can say that the Israeli pilots are outright lying though you would have no proof and anyways my point is that simply because the crew of that ship say that they were attacked, which we all agree on, though that it was a deliberate attack, is not something that they can really know at all!)


US flagged vessel in international waters on a clear day. .…in middle of a ongoing WARZONE!! (Boy the way you describe things, the U.S. ship was off the shores of Disney land on a beautiful day, taking a cruise and it was nowhere near any battlerfield of any kind…)

Oh and something that always had me curious….what was that SPY ship doing in middle of a WARZONE??

[Hollis]

This has nothing to do with anti-Israeli propoganda.

You either believe the crew and the Medal of Honor captain of the USS Liberty when they say they were deliberately attacked (http://www.ussliberty.org/voices.htm) or don't.

I was not there nor anyone on this forum.

I tend to believe my own countrymen who were wounded and unfortunately killed over a foreign powers explanation of why they attacked a US flagged vessel in international waters on a clear day.

If you think the USS Liberty crew men are liars, that is your problem.



Most people here refuse to give any credence to the crews experience, which is sad -- but not unexpected in this forum.

Btw my comment was in regards to the "Israeli Pilot" interview that you posted.

Black rain, I have posted what I know about friendly Fire, and my history with this affair, I am not calling them a liar........

To lie means to willfully distort the truth, I believe they believe in what they said.

As I mentioned before friendly fire is a great oxymoron. When your the target, it is very real. It is very personal.


And as I posted, I often wondered about this event, much like you, until those documents were declassified.

They made sense of this mess.

Other options the declassified documents were a plant.


EDITED TO ADD. I am sure that you have been in situation were the Little picture does not tell it all.

[BlackRain]

Wow this again…….Anyways, from past debates that I have been in on this, I know this can go on and on though for me, I just want to respond to our favorite cut and pastor ;)

Or you can believe the Israeli fighter pilots who also have won medals from it’s nation for that say it was not deliberate!!

Taking away national loyalties and biases for a minute, as for intentions as to whether it is deliberate or not, who is supposed to know more, the one’s that are attacking and know their intentions or the one’s that are being attacked and do not know the attackers intentions at all?

(Now of course you can say that the Israeli pilots are outright lying though you would have no proof and anyways my point is that simply because the crew of that ship say that they were attacked, which we all agree on, though that it was a deliberate attack, is not something that they can really know at all!)

…in middle of a ongoing WARZONE!! (Boy the way you describe things, the U.S. ship was off the shores of Disney land on a beautiful day, taking a cruise and it was nowhere near any battlerfield of any kind…)

Oh and something that always had me curious….what was that SPY ship doing in middle of a WARZONE??

Good points and I don't mean to be gruff with you.

1) Why was the ship there in international waters?

The USA and Israel were/still allies and was conducting ELINT. Don't forget the US admin was very concerned that the Russians would become involved in this war and needed to gain intelligence on their intentions.

As far as the other points you brought up, I think that the Moore Commision and the War Crimes (http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf) report would probably answer better than I.




The “Moorer Commission” (Chaired by Adm. Moorer) investigated the attack and made the following findings:







“We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following:

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency
radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;



7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crew members; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and
the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American
people; and 24









THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, USN, Ret.
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH
Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps
Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy,
James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia”

[IDFM203]

Good points and I don't mean to be gruff with you.

1) Why was the ship there in international waters?

The USA and Israel were/still allies and was conducting ELINT. Don't forget the US admin was very concerned that the Russians would become involved in this war and needed to gain intelligence on their intentions. Ok that can be an explanation though there is also one where SOME people say that the U.S. was actually spying on Israel and it’s movements and conveying it to the Arabs to further endear themselves to them and their bountiful oil as in all truth at the time, the U.S. was NOT a major aly of Israel at all (It was only AFTER the 1967 war did the U.S. change positions and decide to become Israel’s major arms supplier…Which is also curious that indeed if Israel deliberately and maliciously attacked that U.S. spy ship why then after the war would it then decide to become Israel’s major arms supplier?? Oh and before all you Zionist control nutties come at me with the powerful Israeli lobby drivel, then if so, where was that lobby right before the war? Anyways I am off track here :)).

Either way I guess we can now both agree that the SPY ship was not some cruise ship innocently off the coast of Disney world ;)

As for your long copy and past (boy I didn’t see that coming ;) ) let me say that I actually responded to that point by point around three years ago on this board…The thing is that for some reason, I cannot access my posts past two years back or so).

Anyways, I think I should be upfront, I come on this board to look at photos and yes to engage in conversation and debates with opposing viewpoints every now and then though as I am not on the payroll of any foreign policy board or committee, I frankly do not have the time nor the inclination do go on long research sprees and bring all sorts of articles and links to websites (which do exists and yes back when I first started, I did bring a lot of them up). So in other words, I am here to engage in debate though if all I am going to be responded to with are long cut and paste rebuttals then I am afraid my friend, this debate will be over.

I look forward to an insightful and original response of your own…..

Shalom :)

[Hollis]

This is all getting interesting,

The pilot who admitted the attack, who has he, According to the current interview with the pilot no one ever talked to him.. Everything contradicts. nothing makes sense. PT boats with torpetoes cannot sink a ship? Napalm? The Judge Cristol lied or invented a new ending? Rockets? The voice recording were a hoax?

I thought it was settled with the release of declassified info.......... What a mess.

[BlackRain]

Shalom :)

Yes, all this makes my head hurt. And, yes I will officially concede the USS Liberty was not in Disneyland.

You seem like a mensch so this goyim will let you off easy this time by not posting more reams of data.

p-)

[IDFM203]

Hehe :lol: thanks and in return, I will speak to my Zionist AIPAC station chief in Washington at my next underground meeting and be sure to get you off the Mossad hit list that every American goy is on ;)

[Kaplanr]

. . . You'll hear no more from me about this. But, is there really a museum in Israel commemorating this attack and exhonorating the pilots? That's a little tacky
IMO.

If there is, I've never seen it. There's the Clandestine Immigration and Naval Museum in Haifa which has several ships, weapons and the usual stuff in anaval museum. I don't recall seeing any pieces of Liberty boats or rafts there. There's the Air Force Museum outside Beer-Sheva, and it's almost exclusively aircraft, but I haven't been there. In Yafo (Jaffa) there's a multi-building storage facility of stuff accumulated by the IDF including items from pre-state days (Hagana, Irgun and Lehi.) It's open to visitors, but it isn't really a museum, more a historical warehouse. Maybe there's material their, but it doesn't make sense.

Think about the actions of the day. After the attacks are stopped, Israeli help is rejected and other than an Israeli helo bringing out the Naval Attache, there is no further Israeli involvement. If I understand correctly, she was escorted to Malta by 6th Fleet units; I'd think they would have gathered up whatever was around.

[PELASGOS]

Maybe we should arrange a reconciliation meeting between surviving Liberty crew and IDF personnel; like when they would get IJN and Pearl Harbor survivors together.



Yes it would be interesting for the war criminals to meet with their victims.

The term war crime is not mine but that's how the sailors petition vs Israel describes the act.

[S'13]

Yes it would be interesting for the war criminals to meet with their victims.

The term war crime is not mine but that's how the sailors petition vs Israel describes the act.


So far is there any court willing to stand behind such a claim of war crimes? Ah no...

In that case cut the BS.

[n4292936]

for those interested in the event, you may want to check out Body of Secrets by James Bamford


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385499086/002-3489268-5024827?v=glance&n=283155


I read it several years ago and ran into the guy that runs the Liberty.org site. He contributed the Liberty info to the book( or at least he was interviewed in relation to it).

[Kaplanr]

Yes it would be interesting for the war criminals to meet with their victims.

The term war crime is not mine but that's how the sailors petition vs Israel describes the act.

Yes I know PELASGOS, your previous posts just show how objective you are vis-a-vis Israelis. You just happen to be using "objective" and neutral terminology.

The equivalent would be my translating your sentence to read:
"Yes it would be interesting for the pilots and sailors to meet the sailors whose Bozo commanders unneccessarily put them in harms way."

[kineret]

Yes it would be interesting for the war criminals to meet with their victims.

The term war crime is not mine but that's how the sailors petition vs Israel describes the act.


i never understood why greeks are so anti-israeli. on general terms. greece took in the palestinian gunmen that hid in the church of nativity, desecrating the church and were firing out of it at IDF soldiers. greece took them in anyway. ironic.

[Deuterium]

Ok that can be an explanation though there is also one where SOME people say that the U.S. was actually spying on Israel and it’s movements and conveying it to the Arabs to further endear themselves to them and their bountiful oil as in all truth at the time, the U.S. was NOT a major aly of Israel at all (It was only AFTER the 1967 war did the U.S. change positions and decide to become Israel’s major arms supplier…Which is also curious that indeed if Israel deliberately and maliciously attacked that U.S. spy ship why then after the war would it then decide to become Israel’s major arms supplier?? Oh and before all you Zionist control nutties come at me with the powerful Israeli lobby drivel, then if so, where was that lobby right before the war? Anyways I am off track here :)).

Either way I guess we can now both agree that the SPY ship was not some cruise ship innocently off the coast of Disney world ;)

As for your long copy and past (boy I didn’t see that coming ;) ) let me say that I actually responded to that point by point around three years ago on this board…The thing is that for some reason, I cannot access my posts past two years back or so).

Anyways, I think I should be upfront, I come on this board to look at photos and yes to engage in conversation and debates with opposing viewpoints every now and then though as I am not on the payroll of any foreign policy board or committee, I frankly do not have the time nor the inclination do go on long research sprees and bring all sorts of articles and links to websites (which do exists and yes back when I first started, I did bring a lot of them up). So in other words, I am here to engage in debate though if all I am going to be responded to with are long cut and paste rebuttals then I am afraid my friend, this debate will be over.

I look forward to an insightful and original response of your own…..

Shalom :)

Didn't the change in US aid to Israel happen in 1965 not 1967? I thought 65 was the year we began selling tanks and arms and our foreign aid dollars increased exponentialy.

[CPLHUNTER]

Didn't the change in US aid to Israel happen in 1965 not 1967? I thought 65 was the year we began selling tanks and arms and our foreign aid dollars increased exponentialy.

The US did keep it's distance for some time. But for the glory of cut & paste, where would we be?

Harry Truman is given much of the credit for the creation of Israel, but his unwillingness to supply arms to the Jews fighting for independence undermined the diplomatic support he gave to the UN-sponsored partition of Palestine. The United States continued its arms embargo, despite persistent pressure from Israel and her supporters, until the Kennedy Administration.

United States policy for denying American arms to Israel was based on the following arguments: 1) the country was strong enough to defend itself without U.S. arms; this belief was reinforced by Israel's success during the Suez campaign; 2) Israel had access to arms from other sources; 3) the United States did not want to appear to be starting an arms race in the Middle East; 4) the U.S. sales of arms to Israel would lead the Arabs to ask the Russians and Chinese for arms; 5) the U.S. did not want to risk a Middle East confrontation with the Soviet Union; and 6) U.S. military aid to Israel would alienate the Arabs.

Not until 1962 did Israel receive its first major weapons system from the United States when Kennedy agreed to sell HAWK anti-aircraft missiles to Israel. That sale was opposed by the State Department, but Kennedy felt justified in ordering its execution after he failed to dissuade Egyptian President Nasser from escalating the arms race and after he learned that the Soviet Union had supplied Nasser with long-range bombers. The HAWK sale was significant not only because it was the first major direct arms transfer to Israel but also because that system required that Israeli soldiers be given extensive training in the United States and that spare parts be supplied to Israel. These were the first steps on a path which made Israel increasingly dependent on U.S. arms.

From 1948 until the 1962 HAWK sale, the Israeli lobby (consisting of those individuals and organizations which attempt directly and indirectly to influence American policy to support Israel) was largely unaware of any U.S. military aid to Israel. (Actually, there had been a trickle of arms such as recoilless rifles.) There was nothing unusual about this since virtually all U. S. aid to the Middle East was secret. In 1956, Israel's Ambassador to the United States, Abba Eban, told the president of the American Jewish Committee, Irving Engel, that with the possible exception of jet fighters, Israel was receiving arms in fair amounts.(1) (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/phantom.html#N_1_) The main source of these weapons, according to Eban, was France. In fact, it was U.S. encouragement of third-party arms suppliers which had enabled Israel to meet its defense needs. In addition, the United States itself was supplying small amounts of weapons to Israel, apparently without the knowledge of the Israeli lobby.

[S'13]

Didn't the change in US aid to Israel happen in 1965 not 1967? I thought 65 was the year we began selling tanks and arms and our foreign aid dollars increased exponentialy.

Nah, the real changes came following the Yom Kippur War and the peace agreement with Egypt as you can see here:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

[Giann53]

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/walsh06.jpghttp://www.ussliberty.org/

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." (http://www.ussliberty.org/helmstext.htm)
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous " (http://www.ussliberty.org/rusk.htm)
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship." (http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm)
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

[Snoshi]

Its impossible to tell who is right in this case

[S'13]

The USS Liberty: Case Closed (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html)

[Giann53]

The USS Liberty: Case Closed (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html)


From the Jewish Virtual library..How unbiased.

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/sailors.gif

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/lgwalsh06.jpg

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/mcgon2.jpg

To the Americans here.Whose words are you going to believe? The Men who were there your brothers your sevice men or a foreign government.

RIP to the American Sailors
http://www.youtube.com/v/lqDKgqvGgn8

[CPLHUNTER]

The USS Liberty: Case Closed (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty1.html)


Wow, I guess its closed then...another set of args in complete disagreement w/ the other side.

I give up and will stick with my original conclusion which is that the attack was deliberate. But damn my head sure does hurt.

[S'13]

From the Jewish Virtual library..How unbiased.


Well originally this is actually a chapter from the acclaimed book by Michael B. Oren, 'Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East'.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195151747?v=glance

[Giann53]

Well originally this is actually a chapter from the acclaimed book by Michael B. Oren, 'Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East'.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195151747?v=glance

Thank you for the link S'13 but I will take the men's account who were actually there during the attack.

http://www.wrmea.com/images/August_2005/hanley_01.jpg

[CPLHUNTER]

I suggest that this thread is closed as S-13 says the case was...

I believe what I'm going to believe and S-13 or Giann53 will believe what he/she wants, so on and so on...

[S'13]

Thank you for the link S'13 but I will take the men's account who were actually there during the attack.

http://www.wrmea.com/images/August_2005/hanley_01.jpg

Yeah, it was a ship full of telepathists (it wasn't just any intel ship) and they knew exactly what the people on the other side were thinking. :roll:

Also there isn't any chance of bitterness on their side.

This is pathetic...

[Giann53]

They reported Israeli aircraft buzzing them.The men had the American flag in the wind and the IAF pilots were so low they waved to each other.

If you look here the US Sailors have slammed Israel with war crimes
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

At approximately 06000 hours on the mourning of June 8th 1967 an Israeli Martitime aircraft observer reported seeing an "US Navy cargo type ship"

[S'13]

They reported Israeli aircraft buzzing them.The men had the American flag in the wind and the IAF pilots were so low they waved to each other.


If you just took the time to read the link I provided, but I guess you are not interested in the truth.

[Giann53]

If you just took the time to read the link I provided, but I guess you are not interested in the truth.

The truth is it was a deliberate attack on a US Naval personel in international waters.

[S'13]

The truth is it was a deliberate attack on a US Naval personel in international waters.

Apparently that's the only "truth" you are willing to accept.

[khukuri]

To be honest. The whole thing is quite strange. Allies sinking each others ships during wartime. At the same time friendly fire is quite easy to do... remember first gulf war when british harriers attacked american armour... **** happens. And the storys and theorys and not 100% either. In that world there always fishy things going on that most of us will never know.
But the quotes from above makes it very clear.

When high officials from CIA, state department and NSA, especially NSA are completly sure that it was a delibaret attack theres no doubt in my mind if it was deliberate or not.




"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty." (http://www.ussliberty.org/helmstext.htm)
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous " (http://www.ussliberty.org/rusk.htm)
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship." (http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles03/PROwalsh06.htm)
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor

[IDFM203]

Didn't the change in US aid to Israel happen in 1965 not 1967? I thought 65 was the year we began selling tanks and arms and our foreign aid dollars increased exponentialy.
No, for as S13 showed, the major shift in U.S. Policy only happened after the 1967 war for before the 6 day war, while there were some aid from the U.S., it was only a trickle and it was on very select few military items though most of Israel’s armaments (and with what it fought with in the 1967 war) were from what it had PURCHASED from France.

So with respect, 1965 was not the turning point on FULL U.S. assistance.

[Kaplanr]

The truth is it was a deliberate attack on a US Naval personel in international waters.

Deliberate attack on foreign naval personnel in international waters...

[Hollis]

I noticed the heat this thread is generating.

Maybe it would be good to close this thread, before, heat gets more people banned.

[CPLHUNTER]

I noticed the heat this thread is generating.

Maybe it would be good to close this thread, before, heat gets more people banned.

Agreed, that was my request on page 6

[PELASGOS]

i never understood why greeks are so anti-israeli. on general terms. greece took in the palestinian gunmen that hid in the church of nativity, desecrating the church and were firing out of it at IDF soldiers. greece took them in anyway. ironic.

The Palestinians entered the church armed and by force. What dou you expect the monks to do? Krav Maga?

The Palestinians went to Cyprus after the incident with the ok by Israel and various countries accepted them:

The Italian News Agency said on Thursday, quoting western diplomatic sources in Rome that the 13 Palestinians who are besieged in the church of nativity in Bethlehem and are considered by Israel as dangerous will leave today evening the Nativity church for Cyprus and from their they will be distributed on several European countries including Canada


And i never understood why Israel with many of its ww2 survivors benefited by Greek civilians who saved them from the Nazis signed a military alliance with Turkey vs Greece.

[PELASGOS]

for those interested in the event, you may want to check out Body of Secrets by James Bamford


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385499086/002-3489268-5024827?v=glance&n=283155


I read it several years ago and ran into the guy that runs the Liberty.org site. He contributed the Liberty info to the book( or at least he was interviewed in relation to it).



Bamford writes that while the Israelis were attacking the Liberty, an American spy plane overhead, a Navy EC-121, overheard and recorded Israeli conversations. The results are devastating. The Israelis were unaware that anyone was listening, and their pilots talked openly about seeing an American flag on the ship they were attacking

[PELASGOS]

Bamford has in his book what US major officials said:


-- Lieutenant General Marshall S. Carter, director of the National Security Agency at the time: "There was no other answer than it was deliberate."

-- Major General John Morrison, NSA deputy director of Operations at the time: "Nobody believes that explanation. The only conjecture that we ever made that made any near sense is that the Israelis did not want us to intercept their communications at that time."

-- Walter Deeley, the senior NSA official who conducted an internal NSA investigation of the incident: "There is no way that they didn't know that the Liberty was American."
-- Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff: "I have to conclude that it was Israel's intent to sink the Liberty and leave as few survivors as possible. Israel knew perfectly well that the ship was American."


Phillip F. Tourney, president of the USS Liberty Veterans Association and a survivor of the attack: "The Israelis got by with cold-blooded, premeditated murder of Americans."

-- Richard Helms, Director of Central Intelligence at the time: "Your chapter on the Liberty was exactly right."

-- George Christian, press secretary to President Johnson at the time: "I became convinced that an accident of this magnitude was too much to swallow."


-- Dean Rusk, Secretary of State at the time: "The Liberty was flying an American flag. It was not all that difficult to identify, and my judgment was that somewhere along the line some fairly senior Israeli official gave the go-ahead for these attacks."

-- David G. Nes, the deputy head of the American mission in Cairo at the time: "I don't think that there's any doubt that it was deliberate.... [It is] one of the great cover-ups of our military history."
-- George Ball, Under Secretary of State at the time: "American leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of its citizens."

[Kaplanr]

The Palestinians entered the church armed and by force. What dou you expect the monks to do? Krav Maga?

The Palestinians went to Cyprus after the incident with the ok by Israel and various countries accepted them:

The Italian News Agency said on Thursday, quoting western diplomatic sources in Rome that the 13 Palestinians who are besieged in the church of nativity in Bethlehem and are considered by Israel as dangerous will leave today evening the Nativity church for Cyprus and from their they will be distributed on several European countries including Canada


And i never understood why Israel with many of its ww2 survivors benefited by Greek civilians who saved them from the Nazis signed a military alliance with Turkey vs Greece.

Sorry to say but diplomatically Greece has historically given Israel the cold shoulder, long before we had warm (as opposed) to correct relations with Turkey. There is certainly no alliance or agreement between us directed against Greece; that's someone besides us being paranoid for once.

Don't blame us because you two can't come to any sort of long lasting rapproachment. If it would help matters any we'll take Turkey, you can have the Palestinians.

[PELASGOS]

Sorry to say but diplomatically Greece has historically given Israel the cold shoulder, long before we had warm (as opposed) to correct relations with Turkey. There is certainly no alliance or agreement between us directed against Greece; that's someone besides us being paranoid for once.

Don't blame us because you two can't come to any sort of long lasting rapproachment. If it would help matters any we'll take Turkey, you can have the Palestinians.


During the Ottoman occupation in the Balcans the Jewish communities were acting as Ottoman allies killing Greeks noumerous times and it's not fantasy but documented by the memoirs of Greek fighters. The massacres in Naousa and the island of Hios are known of the participation of Jewish contigents and their brutality. This was not Israeli state of course but the choice of this era's Jews. There are more but just have in mind that your love with the Turks vs Greeks has a long history. At some point the newly formed Greek state choose to leave this behind because there were also retaliations by Greeks vs Jews when the Turks started losing the war.

There were some good times later like in ww2 when many Jews were rescued in Greece and in 1955 or something when Israeli navy was present to Kefalonia island and helped the people after a disastrous earhquake.


Who said we want the Palenistians?

[BlackRain]

Wow, this thread is still going?

Eerily reminiscent of the same topic a few years ago.

[Drako]

Hmm, you may argue as much as you want - you'll never really know the truth. It's being covered up by both sides so there's no way to find out why Liberty was attacked. One thing is sure - if Israelis saw any profits (from a military point of view) in attacking the ship, they would do it. I know I may be called antisemite but Israel couple of times has shown that when they think something is right they will do it. If they did that - they seemly found an agreement with US gov so nothing was let out to the public.

[Belrick]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=315949&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y



Nuff said...


You honestly think that tape recording is evidence of anything?

[Argyll]

flogged to death a hundred times before