Definition of Zionism

[Commie]

[edit - ver. 2 typo]
Well im not a jew and im not religious either. Since i am pretty interested in the Israel - Palestinian conflict the nature of both the jewish religion and the arabic religion has interested me since they play a significant part in the conflict, so i wonder if one our Israeli homeboys in here can please explain how they see and define Zionism.
In its Original form and the form it has taken today.

I do have own opinions regarding this though i will not post them here.
Since they are pretty "liberal" ;-)

I would really like to hear your opinions guys i hardly get to talk to Israeli Jews so often.

SERIOUS REPLIES ONLY, no friggin flamewar.

[ExtraT]

Zionism is a desire of a Jew to return to his homeland in Eretz-Israel (mistakenly called Palestine by some people.)

Every non-assimilated Jew is a zionist, although there are different kinds. Ultra-orthodox Jews, for example, believe that return to Eretz-Israel is forbidden until the coming of Mashiah, or soon before it.

Zionism was greatly warped by the world socialist movement, since it goes against the basic principle of socialism: national differences are a distraction from class struggle. USSR did a great job at villifying zionism (they equated it with faschism).
Of course, the omnipresent antisemitism didn't help either. :(

[Sway]

yeah basically what the previous dude said....Its a jewish movement that happened in the 19th century and established its homeland IN palestine ....except it wasnt mistakenly called PALESTINE by some people..thats what the name of the country was be4 the movement

[Commie]

But isn't Zionism basically saying that the lands of eretz-israel belong to the jews only and all non-jews and so it do contain some kind of Nationalistic or Teologic essence that make the country isolationistic?

Please help me out... If you have some book tips that would be great too!

[UkrainianAmerican]

But isn't Zionism basically saying that the lands of eretz-israel belong to the jews only and all non-jews and so it do contain some kind of Nationalistic or Teologic essence that make the country isolationistic?

Please help me out... If you have some book tips that would be great too!
Most dictionaries have a pretty good definition.

[UkrainianAmerican]

yeah basically what the previous dude said....Its a jewish movement that happened in the 19th century and established its homeland IN palestine ....except it wasnt mistakenly called PALESTINE by some people..thats what the name of the country was be4 the movement
And the only ppl living there at that point were the Bedouin nomads.

[Commie]

russian american lets try to focus on the issue at hand here which is Zionism, okey? Therefore i wont respond to this one though if you feel like it you can start another thread where we can discuss this matter.

[ExtraT]

it wasnt mistakenly called PALESTINE by some people..thats what the name of the country was be4 the movement

What country? Palestine is a geographical term, introduced by the Romans to wipe every trace of the Jewish presence in the land (Jews really pissed the Romans off with all these rebellions). There was never a country named "palestine", never a people named "palestinian" - these are all artificially created names for the sake of denying Jews their home.

[Commie]

AGAIN guys.... lets focus on Zionism, if you do not have something to add to the discussion, dont post and start another thread about existence of Palestine is or is not.

[Sway]

SO your saying there was never a country named soviet union either huh... it was always russia ....soviet union was also just an articficially created name????? all because its not called that now doesnt meant it wasnt be4 the movement..??are u ignornant or just stupid? I mean hmm then the israeli's must be fighting an imaginary enemy... they must be schizchophrenic .... since palestinians dont "exist"

p.s sry commie gave u the best defenition i can...but it was called palestine be4...even tho some people are to ignorant to admit it.

[ExtraT]

SO your saying there was never a country named soviet union either huh... it was always russia ....soviet union was also just an articficially created name?????


Of course. Haven't you studied history, at least a little? Do you have any idea what the term "Soviet Union" really means? And what was the reason for it's creation?


I mean hmm then the israeli's must be fighting an imaginary enemy... they must be schizchophrenic .... since palestinians dont "exist"


No, we are not fighting an imaginary enemy. And yes, "palestinians" do not exist. Can you find me any historic reference to "palestinians" prior to 1967? Come on, don't be shy. :lol:

We're fighting Arabs that want to take our home from us. To justify their aggression, they have named themselves "palestinians", as per suggestion from their good friends at USSR Politbureau. Why should we play into the hands of our mortal enemy and go along with their false claims? Can you give me a single logical reason?


was called palestine be4...even tho some people are to ignorant to admit it.

Again: Eretz-Israel was named "palestine" by our mortal enemies - the Romans. They chose a name that sounded close to "Plishtim" - a long-extinct biblical enemy of the Jews. They did so to wipe out the Jewish heritage, to rewrite history and, eventually, to destory the Jewish people. Give me one good reason why we should go along with this, and call our homeland this pathetic piece of **** of a nickname? Because YOU like it better that way? Who the f*ck are you, anyways? rofl

[ExtraT]

AGAIN guys.... lets focus on Zionism, if you do not have something to add to the discussion, dont post and start another thread about existence of Palestine is or is not.

Zionism is about the desire and the right of Jews to reclaim their homeland in Eretz-Israel. The term "palestine" is a tool that antisemites use to vilify and warp zionism.

So - yes, discussion about existance of "palestine" and "palestinians" is very much on topic.

[UkrainianAmerican]

ExtraT, arguing with a Commie and his boyfriend on the finer points of Zionism is like talking to a wall.

[ExtraT]

ExtraT, arguing with a Commie and his boyfriend on the finer points of Zionism is like talking to a wall.

Well, I'm no IDFM203, but there are certain things that even I can't go by. The term "palestine" is one of them.

[786mine]

i sometimes wonder why even have this discussion coz everyone has their head in their ass so high, all they can see if their belief.

[ExtraT]

i sometimes wonder why even have this discussion coz everyone has their head in their ass so high, all they can see if their belief.

Tell ne, how can you sleep at night? Your hypocrisy is simply astonishing.

[Commie]

(first of all RussianAmerican PIPE down you dont know **** about me so don't make hastly statement because my nick on this forum that would be like me thinking you go all day long wearing a big red hat, sunglasses and ugly stripe pants. ExtraT PIPE down as well as i said clearly in the beginning i want NO FLAME WARS so stop posting and the right of the palestinians is clearly related to zionism as zionism is clearly related to the conflict but just know i want to know more about Zionism!)

Anyhuuuw....

I got this from a Swedish Wikipedia site and i hastly translated it to english. Read it and tell me your thoughts.
It made me see that Zionism is a bit more complex than i previously thought anyway.


Swedish source: http://www.susning.nu/Sionism


1. History
2. Different zionistic directions
2.1 Political Zionism
2.2 Religious Zionism
2.3 Workingclass Zionism
2.4 Rightwing zionism
3. Historical Criticism of Zionism
3.1 Jewish Criticism
3.2 Arabian Criticism
3.3 Leftwing Criticism
3.4 Rightwing Critcism


1. History
The political part of Zionsim is a legacy from the growing nationalistic movemnt during the 19th century in Europe. The idea

that every folk group had a right to its own state and due to that a folkgroup without a state became an abnormality.
Theodor Herzl wrote the book The Jewish State [Judestaten] in 1896. In Austria he spread the idea for a Jewish Nationalstate. Herzel was a secular zionist and thought like, [Leo Pinsker], that the jewish state didn't necessary needed to be in Palestine and could as well be a small territory in America or an independent pshalik in the asian part of Turkey.

The major conflict within the Zionist movement during the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century was between territorialist ( who believed that a diplomatic solution to establish a Jewish state was the right solution) and colonialists (who believed that a territory would be conquered in pace with the growing power for their new nation). A small
note thats interesting is that the territorialists first did not want Palestine to be the land to for a Zionist state but instead Uganda. The definition territorialist and colonialist is the a creation of the sweidsh author Göran Rosenberg.

The colonialits prevailed and after the zionist congress 1905. The goal was now set for the zionist movement and colonialisation of Palestine begun. In the year 1917 the zionist struck a deal with Great Britain regarding a promise of a national home for the jews in palestine [The Belfour declaration]. But a jewish state was not declared until the year 1948. The dominating part of the zionistmovement was ?workingclass?zionist movement. Agricultural work, Labout och Collectivism was the ideal that were preached as zionism's own. In opposition to the workingclasszionism a more militant rightwingzionism started to flurish amongst e.g. Menachem Begin and Vladimir Jabotinsky. The Six Day War in 1967 could be said to be a turning point for the zionist movement. With the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip the rightwing movment became - with their demans of jewish majority in the entire area - the leading part of zionism.

Main source: Book [Det förlorade landet]? The lost Country - Göran Rosenberg.


2. Different Zionistic Directions
There is two separate directions within zionism. If you want you could represnt these directions with a diagram - where the x-line is represented by a political zionistic view contra the religious zionism. The Y-line would represent the Workingclass zionist movement contra the Rightwing movement.

2.1 Political Zionism
The political zionist movement believes that the jews are a people just like Swedes, Americans and so forth. And as a people they are entitled to a state. The political zionistmovement want the state Israel to be just like anyother state. Therefore Israel should be a democratic state [pluralistic], a secular state the aknowledges the right of non-jewish citizens as jewish
citizens.
Examples of politcal zionists are Theodore Herzl and [Shimon Peres]?.

2.2 Religious Zionism
As opposite to the political zionism the religous zionists means that Israel is a state with an entire agenda. Instead they have a special mission and beliefs of Jewish Authority that are linked with messiahan ideads regarding the delievery of the Jewish people. The state of Israel becomes a sign of god for religous zionists that the end times are near. Just like in the the same spirit as christian zionists often reasons who means that the return of the jewish people means the coming of Christ and Harmageddon is near. Ronald Reagan despised this kinds of ideas during his time as president of the United States. Religous Jews cointures to draw paralells between the state of Israel and the jewsish people. In their vision Israel will be a state exlusive only to the jewish people.There is particularism borderlining to racism where christian, muslims and arabs is considered as secondgrade citizens which preferable would be transfered to nearby arabic countries. The religious movement believes that the jews as Gods Chosen people have a historic and religious right to the country of Israel. They usually quote out of the "Pentateuken?" as arguments.
Example of predecssors for the religious movement are Moshe Levinger, [Zvi Yehuda Kook]? and [Moshe Dayan]?. There are often clear connections between the religious movement and the rightwing movement.


2.3 Working-Class Zionism
The working class ideal was the dominating direction in Israel from 1948 to 1967. Within the movement people preachead the socialistic ideals as Collective ownership, strong unions, workingclass romantic? and love to the earth. Working-Class zionism has had strong bonds to the kibbutz-movement, where the work takes place in collective form. Withing the dominant part of the working-class zionism the religous dreams didn't have as clear retorics as those who could be found within the right-wing
movement. Altough a territorial romantic, the ignorance of the arabic population and the dream of Eretz-Israel could also be found within the working-class movement.
Leading profiles in the working-class movement are ex. [David Ben Gurion]?, Yitzhak Rabin and [Martin Buber]?.

2.4 Right-Wing Zionism
Right-Wing zionism is a radical branch of zionism that proclaims Jewish Supremacy stretching troughout the entire are of the historical Israel - Which would be the present Israel, the occupied territories, Jordan and Sinai. The right-wing movement grew strong during the Six Day War,1967. In the year 1977 the righ-wings political party Likud came to power in Israel and Menachem Begin was appointed prime minister.
Famous Right-wing zionists are Ariel Sharon, Menachem Begin and Vladimir Jabotinsky.

3. Historical Criticism of Zionism

3.1 Jewish Criticism
Many orthodox jews is critical to zionsim since they mean that it is forbidden to meddle in the historical process that will bring forth the coming of Messiah. Because of the creation of Israel many jews has seen this as a sign of the coming which has been strongly critcised by antisionistic orthodox jews.

3.2 Arabian Criticism
In the year 1975 the UN General Assembly assumed a resolution where zionism was equalized to racism. The votes were 35 in favor 27 against and 32 who did not vote. This resolution was resolved by UN in 1991 with the vote 111 in favor and 25 against. <- (don't see the connection with arabian criticism but we know it's there)

3.3 Left-wing Criticism
Part of Europes leftwing says that the demands of the zionists is a jewish state exlusive only to the jews. The critics believes that this results in increased racism (entocentrism) and discrimination in the state Israel. They point to the arabs that were in majority in 1948 but in the present are in exile in many surrounding arabic countries.

3.4 Rightwing Extreme Criticism
Zionism has become the subject for many conspiracy teories where as the most famous is the nazi ZOG teory.

[StarvingStudent47]

Commie--

I am an American Jew. I label myself as a Zionist, though I myself am proud to be an American citizen and hope to live here for the rest of my life. Zionism is the belief that there should be an independent Jewish state in the world. It is in that sense "nationalism"--in the same way that the desire for Irish home rule in 1916 was "nationalism" and in the same way that former American President Franklin D. Roosevelt encouraged "national self-determination." Lots of Bostonians believed that Catholic-majority Ireland should be separate from Britain in 1916. They believed this without being inherently racist and without wanting to abandon their American citizenship.

A "Zionist" is someone who believes that that indepedent Jewish state should exist. "Zionists" are not by definition violent, racist, or anything like that. One of history's most famous Zionists wasn't even a Jew at all! His name was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr (I'm not sure how well he's known in Sweden, but he was a famous African-American civil rights leader) and on the topic of Zionism, he had this to say (http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html) on Zionism. Many people also call former American President John F. Kennedy a Zionist. Other Zionists are complete atheists, and believe that Israel should exist because some state in the world needs to be there to accept Jewish refugess from other lands in times of crises, for example the 1930s (when no one, including the USA and all Western European countries, opened their borders to German-Jewish and Russian-Jewish refugees).

---

As a liberal (or more, judging by your name), I'm sure you're familiar with the UN declaration that "Zionism is racism." Three things you should know about this notorious declaration:

1) It was declared during a time when Kurt Waldheim was the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Kurt Waldheim was an officer in the Wehrmacht (Hitler's military) in WWII, and his unit was indicted for war crimes. He was not convicted for lack of evidence (gosh, all the eye-witnesses were dead), but he never publicly renounced his Nazi beliefs. So take what he says about "Jews being racist" with a grain of salt.

2) It was declared during a time when the Soviet Bloc and the Muslim bloc in the UN General Assembly could essentially force through any resolution they wanted. They couldn't get important things by the Security Council, but meaningless "resolutions" like this did not require Security Council approval. The Soviet bloc opposed anything Israel did, because they were allied with the Arab states and the USA was allied with Israel. So it should be no surprise that they could make as many declarations against Israel as they wanted--like this one.

3) THIS DECLARATION WAS REPEALED. After Waldheim left office (thank God) and the power of the Soviet bloc eroded, the United Nations basically admitted that this bogus, partisan resolution was just that, and repealed it. Kofi Annan is certainly not pro-Israel, but even he admits that Zionism is not racism.

---

Regarding the definitions you post--I don't see anything particularly wrong with them, though Wikipedia is exaggerating the importance of religious Zionism (and perhaps being too harsh on it), while ignoring the overwhelming importance of political Zionism. It admits that political Zionism exists, but fails to mention that the VAST, VAST majority of Zionists are political, not religious, Zionists.

Another indictment of Zionism is that it's "religious extremism dictating politics." Wikipedia correctly points out that Jewish extremists don't want an independent Jewish state, because it doesn't follow the exact letter of their version of Biblical prophecy. So the allegation that ZIonism is driven by Jewish extremism doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Perfectly said SS47. woot

[5jumpchump]

Definition . Point finger , invade , over run , take oil , deal with it . :P

[UkrainianAmerican]

Definition . Point finger , invade , over run , take oil , deal with it . :P
Cuz, Israel has SOOOOOOOO much oil. :cantbeli:

[StarvingStudent47]

Definition . Point finger , invade , over run , take oil , deal with it . :P

Dumbass troll. Go back to reading your Noam Chomsky drivel. Israel is the one area in the Middle East WITHOUT oil, so your allegation doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

[sethen]

A non-kosher perspective on zionism: Thugs with LOTS of American equipment.

[Kilgor]

A non-kosher perspective on zionism: Thugs with LOTS of American equipment.

This thread is attracting trolls like flies around steaming ****.

[Commie]

[edit - extra thoughts]

Thank you for an informative post.

But still doesn't some part of zionism see the Jewish Race (gods chosen people) as supreme,, more extreme wing of zionism that would be and im not saying that all of zionists are. This kind of zionistic view should be dealt with since it create a problem for all the other normal zionists?

Tho i guess this can be found in all countries with nationalistic belifes ;).

[Javehn]

Every national movement have a seeds of Rasism in it . But surprisingly , due to the unics of Zionism , rasizm acts in it are very few , and it's very small fanatic group of people that combine Religion + Zionism + fanatism and some sort of revisionism . The basic idea of Zionism was to resettle in the Historical land of Jehudea Kingdom , while oevery other national view in the world is allready settled in their country , and have hostile feelings towards people they bellieve are not true inhibitants .

In some way , we are still not seeying this land as ours . It's part of other problem , called "Jewish self blame" .

[big80a2]

I'm a zionist
And proud of it ;)

I find my grounds in the bible.
I'm a christian zionist,
so for some I'm a fanatic fool :P ;)

[UkrainianAmerican]

I'm a zionist
And proud of it ;)

I find my grounds in the bible.
I'm a christian zionist,
so for some I'm a fanatic fool :P ;)
:lol:
:hug:
Anyways, after studyiing Zionist movements for some time, I didnt really notice anything racist, or something that suggested that Jews are uber-menschen or so bull like that.

[IDFM203]

Great post Starvingstudent47



ExtraT, arguing with a Commie and his boyfriend on the finer points of Zionism is like talking to a wall.

Well, I'm no IDFM203, but there are certain things that even I can't go by. The term "palestine" is one of them.hey now I can understand you wanting to respond but no need to name me here or put me in that light simply to make your point ;)

I enjoy debate but I do pick and choose and don’t respond to all now or things like that, hell even in this thread, besides responding to you, I haven’t made any comments, so please next time you want to make a point that’s great but not at my expense, the last thing I want is respond unkindly to a fellow supporter p-)

P.S. on a lighter note, I love how my Zionist location takeover “thingy” etc… has caught on :D …. indeed the conspiracy lives, and now even has spread to this forum ;)

Shalom :D

[He219]

Israel is the one area in the Middle East WITHOUT oil, so your allegation doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

Recently S'13 posted something to the contrary, just sayin' ..
;)

Israel Strikes Black Gold (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=61864)
Haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/423495.html)

[AirZone]

Israel is the one area in the Middle East WITHOUT oil, so your allegation doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

Recently S'13 posted something to the contrary, just sayin' ..
;)

Israel Strikes Black Gold (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=61864)
Haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/423495.html) Awww I heard about it... but im not sure if its even enough.

Anyway the Israel are a country of nazionists...of course an Israeli-Arab team won the ISRAELI cup in soccer :roll: believe me some Israeli arbs lives better than me... (hell they dont need to serve in the army if they dont want to)

funny thing an jewish israeli player lead the wining of the arb team (yeah jewish players play in there)

but does the new tell you about that ? OF COURSE NOT !

dumbass hypocrites..

[Mr. Nielsen]

One of history's most famous Zionists wasn't even a Jew at all! His name was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr (I'm not sure how well he's known in Sweden, but he was a famous African-American civil rights leader)

I believe that the Luther King Zionist thing is just a baseless story.

[Javehn]

OMG !!! He is here !! Nielsen is here !!! Ellusive , no ? You don't write , you don't call , where are you ?

I am gonna have a lot of fun today . :lol: Yea , i do . Unless you offcorse will decide to run away again .

[Mr. Nielsen]

As a liberal (or more, judging by your name), I'm sure you're familiar with the UN declaration that "Zionism is racism." Three things you should know about this notorious declaration:

1) It was declared during a time when Kurt Waldheim was the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Not sure of relevance.


2) It was declared during a time when the Soviet Bloc and the Muslim bloc in the UN General Assembly could essentially force through any resolution they wanted. They couldn't get important things by the Security Council, but meaningless "resolutions" like this did not require Security Council approval.

Is resolution 181 also meaningless?


3) THIS DECLARATION WAS REPEALED. After Waldheim left office (thank God) and the power of the Soviet bloc eroded, the United Nations basically admitted that this bogus, partisan resolution was just that, and repealed it.

Or perhaps they were just making a goodwill gesture after the Madrid conference the same year?


And Javehn, don't worry I will get around to you soon.

[S'13]

Israel is the one area in the Middle East WITHOUT oil, so your allegation doesn't stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

Recently S'13 posted something to the contrary, just sayin' ..
;)

Israel Strikes Black Gold (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=61864)
Haaretz (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/423495.html)

True that we have oil but the amount we have equals what SA pumps in a day! So by ME standards you could say we don't have oil p-)

[5jumpchump]

Definition . Point finger , invade , over run , take oil , deal with it . :P
Cuz, Israel has SOOOOOOOO much oil. :cantbeli:

:cantbeli: Geeeez lighten up it was only a joke , one that went waaaaaaaaay over your head . I wasn't implying Isreal has the oil .
It was a far fetched joke about how the arab world sees Isreal and the US as Zioinists taking over the world , invading other countries for oil . I need more practice . Back to the drawing board :oops:

[Javehn]

I like Zionists . They are tasty and crumbly . When they are not trying to conquer the world .

[Mark_Aspen]

Whats the line Moses asked God?

"Let me see if I understand you, they get 300 years of oil reserves ...
and we get to cut the tips off our WHAT?"

[StarvingStudent47]

I believe that the Luther King Zionist thing is just a baseless story.

The intimate connection between American Jews and African-Americans in the 1960s is undeniable. The almost univeral American Jewish support for MLK's Southern Christian Leadership Conference is undeniable. I see no reason to disbelieve the truthfulness of this widely-printed letter of his.


Is resolution 181 also meaningless?
Was Kurt Waldheim Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1947? No! Were the lines of the Cold War clearly drawn yet, especially in the Middle East? No! And of course, Resolution 181 was never repealed by the very organization that established it. Therefore, my criticisms of the "Zionism is racism" declaration do not also cover Resolution 181.

[StarvingStudent47]

[edit - extra thoughts]

Thank you for an informative post.

But still doesn't some part of zionism see the Jewish Race (gods chosen people) as supreme,, more extreme wing of zionism that would be and im not saying that all of zionists are. This kind of zionistic view should be dealt with since it create a problem for all the other normal zionists?

Tho i guess this can be found in all countries with nationalistic belifes ;).

For most Jews, "the chosen people" is not a declaration of racial supremacy or anything like that. It's the people who God chose to give the Torah to. Being a member of the Chosen people confers no benefits whatsoever, since the Jewish God evaluates people according to their actions, not their beliefs. Saying you're the "chosen people" is like me saying that I was working with a group of students, and I was chosen to give the presentation for our group project. Yes, I was "chosen," but that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else. It's just how it happened to work out.

Yes, some Jews are racist. Just like some Swedes are racist. But that doesn't make Jewish nationalism inherently evil, just like the presence of some racists in Sweden doesn't make Swedish patriotism inherently racist. Do you see what I'm saying here? Every group has a couple of bad seeds, but it's only with Zionism that people try and say that the entire group is evil because there are a couple of bad seeds within it. Yes, some Irish are racist. But this doesn't mean that a belief in Irish Home Rule is inherently racist. Zionism is no different.

Zionists DO deal with the racists within them, as much as anyone can. We condemn them, we tell them to STFU, and when racists act on their racist beliefs, Israeli courts throw them in jail. Just like neo-Nazis in Sweden. But it's hard to permanently stamp out all bad aspects of a society--Israel is no different than Sweden or anywhere else in this respect. You work for that goal, but it's hard to make it arrive. But just because there is the Ku Klux Klan in America, doesn't make American patriotism racist. Just because there are skinheads in Britain, doesn't make British patriotism racist. All of these countries, Israel included, work to control their small bigot minorities.

[AirZone]

[edit - extra thoughts]

Thank you for an informative post.

But still doesn't some part of zionism see the Jewish Race (gods chosen people) as supreme,, more extreme wing of zionism that would be and im not saying that all of zionists are. This kind of zionistic view should be dealt with since it create a problem for all the other normal zionists?

Tho i guess this can be found in all countries with nationalistic belifes ;).

For most Jews, "the chosen people" is not a declaration of racial supremacy or anything like that. It's the people who God chose to give the Torah to. Being a member of the Chosen people confers no benefits whatsoever, since the Jewish God evaluates people according to their actions, not their beliefs. Saying you're the "chosen people" is like me saying that I was working with a group of students, and I was chosen to give the presentation for our group project. Yes, I was "chosen," but that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else. It's just how it happened to work out.

Yes, some Jews are racist. Just like some Swedes are racist. But that doesn't make Jewish nationalism inherently evil, just like the presence of some racists in Sweden doesn't make Swedish patriotism inherently racist. Do you see what I'm saying here? Every group has a couple of bad seeds, but it's only with Zionism that people try and say that the entire group is evil because there are a couple of bad seeds within it. Yes, some Irish are racist. But this doesn't mean that a belief in Irish Home Rule is inherently racist. Zionism is no different.

Zionists DO deal with the racists within them, as much as anyone can. We condemn them, we tell them to STFU, and when racists act on their racist beliefs, Israeli courts throw them in jail. Just like neo-Nazis in Sweden. But it's hard to permanently stamp out all bad aspects of a society--Israel is no different than Sweden or anywhere else in this respect. You work for that goal, but it's hard to make it arrive. But just because there is the Ku Klux Klan in America, doesn't make American patriotism racist. Just because there are skinheads in Britain, doesn't make British patriotism racist. All of these countries, Israel included, work to control their small bigot minorities. You know whats funny ? people forget how tiny Israel is.. and how the racists are minority (And I mean MINORITY)

[Javehn]

Zion ?? Isn't it the last city of human on earth , while everybody else assimiliated in Matrix ? And there is this Rabbay Leo , or the one , Massiah :lol: . There are profits there , trully Biblical scene . Zion ...

[AirZone]

Zion ?? Isn't it the last city of human on earth , while everybody else assimiliated in Matrix ? And there is this Rabbay Leo , or the one , Massiah :lol: . There are profits there , trully Biblical scene . Zion ... And who's trinity ? the "pilegesh" of the messiah ? :lol:

[Javehn]

She is ugly biach ... :roll:
The profit , on the other hand :lol:

[AirZone]

She is ugly biach ... :roll:
The profit , on the other hand :lol: You are a sick... sick man... rofl

[citizen-k]

But isn't Zionism basically saying that the lands of eretz-israel belong to the jews only and all non-jews and so it do contain some kind of Nationalistic or Teologic essence that make the country isolationistic?

Please help me out... If you have some book tips that would be great too!

No.

The first Jews who started coming to Israel (accept for those who were in Israel in the first place) bought the lands they lived on, and had good relationships with their Arab neightbours.
Zionism isn't about owning the land - it's just about returning to Israel - which was mostly empty at the time...

Zionism's main task is to create a Jewish state - not because Jews don't like others, simply because Jews haven't got any other place to live. As you know they are not comfortable in foreign countries. (something with the air...it smells like gas to them)

[SeanAshi]

Definition . Point finger , invade , over run , take oil , deal with it Don't forget about eating Palestinian babies :roll:

[AirZone]

But isn't Zionism basically saying that the lands of eretz-israel belong to the jews only and all non-jews and so it do contain some kind of Nationalistic or Teologic essence that make the country isolationistic?

Please help me out... If you have some book tips that would be great too!

No.

The first Jews who started coming to Israel (accept for those who were in Israel in the first place) bought the lands they lived on, and had good relationships with their Arab neightbours.
Zionism isn't about owning the land - it's just about returning to Israel - which was mostly empty at the time...

Zionism's main task is to create a Jewish state - not because Jews don't like others, simply because Jews haven't got any other place to live. As you know they are not comfortable in foreign countries. (something with the air...it smells like gas to them) Yeah... many people doesnt know we kinda DEVELOPED this land to what its today...a place where we can bake our mazot for young palastine kids :roll: (Im in a saractic mood today hehehe)

[Mark_Aspen]

Don't forget about eating Palestinian babies

You're leaving out poisoning the wells with plague, and running the world's banking system. Imagine if the Templars and Rockefellers were us?

[Mr. Nielsen]

Was Kurt Waldheim Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1947? No! Were the lines of the Cold War clearly drawn yet, especially in the Middle East? No! And of course, Resolution 181 was never repealed by the very organization that established it. Therefore, my criticisms of the "Zionism is racism" declaration do not also cover Resolution 181.

My point was just, that you seemed to indicate that the general assembly was making meaningless resolutions. Therefore the general assembly resolution 181 would also be meaningless.

[Mr. Nielsen]

The intimate connection between American Jews and African-Americans in the 1960s is undeniable. The almost univeral American Jewish support for MLK's Southern Christian Leadership Conference is undeniable. I see no reason to disbelieve the truthfulness of this widely-printed letter of his.

I'm not arguing that american jews didn't support the civil rights cause.

But the letter you are referring to, just don't seem to exist. See the following article:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml

[Moledet]

The intimate connection between American Jews and African-Americans in the 1960s is undeniable. The almost univeral American Jewish support for MLK's Southern Christian Leadership Conference is undeniable. I see no reason to disbelieve the truthfulness of this widely-printed letter of his.

I'm not arguing that american jews didn't support the civil rights cause.

But the letter you are referring to, just don't seem to exist. See the following article:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml
LOL, nice source, Electronic intifada? Couldn't you find a more biased site? That site is worse then Al-Jazeera.

[Mr. Nielsen]

LOL, nice source, Electronic intifada? Couldn't you find a more biased site? That site is worse then Al-Jazeera.

Have you read the article?

The electronic intifada is a very good web site on the conflict. They are very good at keeping their facts and moral straight. It's of course from a palestinian angle.

[StarvingStudent47]

Was Kurt Waldheim Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1947? No! Were the lines of the Cold War clearly drawn yet, especially in the Middle East? No! And of course, Resolution 181 was never repealed by the very organization that established it. Therefore, my criticisms of the "Zionism is racism" declaration do not also cover Resolution 181.

My point was just, that you seemed to indicate that the general assembly was making meaningless resolutions. Therefore the general assembly resolution 181 would also be meaningless.

My point was that they were making meaningless resolutions IN THE 1970s. Resolution 181 was in the 1940s. Why is this distinction so hard for you to grasp?!

[StarvingStudent47]

The intimate connection between American Jews and African-Americans in the 1960s is undeniable. The almost univeral American Jewish support for MLK's Southern Christian Leadership Conference is undeniable. I see no reason to disbelieve the truthfulness of this widely-printed letter of his.

I'm not arguing that american jews didn't support the civil rights cause.

But the letter you are referring to, just don't seem to exist. See the following article:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml

There is some disagreement as to whether the full article is legitimate. However, there is NO disagreement that the sentiment is legitimate, as conveyed by the public encounter where Dr. King says "'Don't talk like that. When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism." Electronic Intifada denies this quote, so I guess you have to ask yourself: do you trust Electronic Intifada or Harvard Law School?

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/iaisrael/drmlk.html
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/m/ma/martin_luther_king__jr_.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Quote/king.html

Furthermore, the following pages, which are just as "unbiased" as ElectronicIntifada, accept the letter as probably accurate.
http://www.messiahnj.org/mlking.htm
http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-022-Martin-Luther-King-Zionism.html
http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html

Whether the full letter is accurate or not, Dr. King's public defense of Zionism is unquestionable.

[Sway]

Extrat says
No, we are not fighting an imaginary enemy. And yes, "palestinians" do not exist. Can you find me any historic reference to "palestinians" prior to 1967? Come on, don't be shy. :lol:

Sry for late response....been afk

Okay palestinians dont exists like you say....lets just say that....and there comproside of a bunch of arabs whose sole purpose is not to let jews back into there "homeland"....

1) Dont you think that other arabs would be in on this war if that was true...since there all one in the same according to you..instead of hesistating

2) Okay so lets say the israels wanted to return like u say..DURING the time period you were gone....WHAT was it called? it wasnt referred to as israel...DURING THE TIME period that you say the israelis left....and be4 they returned... did the coutnry just disappear?? i can guess ur ansewr you'll say it was probably still Israel...even tho they wernt there...in ur eyes it maybe...just like in mine its still Palestine, but with another name.

3) If palestinians dont exist...then neither do my posts...its another figment of ur imagination...

4) hehe its funny that u say palestinians dont exist tho..... but every day in the news it says "10 palestinians dead in blah blah blah" or "palestinian kils 4 israelis in blah blah blah"....Dude no one likes war.... u might hate palestinians ..ur opinion is urs...but dont deny existance...just so u can justify that ur people are right...thats the most ignorant thing someone can do...

5) Here lets ASSUME there are no such people called palestinians prior to 1967....just assume....those arabs u say that went there and colonized....in this area that had no name according to u..since no one occupied it.... id assume had kids there..what race are they? i mean it wasnt israel...since the israels left...and we know that area was considered an islamic state at the time.....

Just face the fact it was palestine... at the time as mucha s u want to deny it...there were arabs and jews living there under an islamic statepeacfully... grant it the jew population was low at the time roughly 6 percent..but they still lived there peacefully till the brits messed things up ...

salam all :hug:

[StarvingStudent47]

Sway and ExtraT--could we keep this thread specifically on the topic of "the definition of Zionism," instead of making it the "everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict thread, version 4,503,409"?

[RavenW]

Sorry I just noticed this topic and because there are sooo many replies already I might repeat someone.

Here is my definition.

Zionism is a desire of Jews to create and live in the state of their own. Period.

Original, zionists did NOT specifically mention any particular land or region for this Jewish state. The proposals went from African territory to the ilsands in Pacific. But since the historical heart of Jewish homeland was located West of Jordan River, they decided that it is important that Jews would return to the original roots of their lives.

For our discussion, Zionism is a desire of Jews to create and live in the state of their own.
Here is a definition for you. As simple as it is.



P.S. For those of you who think that there was some kind of "country" called Palestine in 19th century, that is NOT true.
Palestine was a region of Middle East. It was a REGION as Balkan in Europe. I hope you would not call "Balkans" to be a country in 19th century Europe.
Palestine incorporated present day State of Israel, West Bank of Jordan river, present Gaza Strip, state of Jordan itself and south-west of Syria and Southern border of Lebanon.

This region "Palestine" was under control of Ottoman Empire that had many other provinces in the world at that time.

Who lived in that region? many different ethnic groups, among them - Jews, Arabs, Armenians, Cherkess, Druses, Turks, some Greeks etc.

Now, Eastern European Jews who suffered greatly from anti-Semitism of their neighbours wanted to establish their new Jewish State in the region that was a place of the original Jewish State since they felt deep historical as well as religious connection with this land.

Moreover, it was natural for them to choose Palestine, since the holy city of Yerushalaim (Jerusalem) contained the holiest sites and symbols in Judaism and played tremendous importance in the formation of Jewish character and identity.

For example, Torah mentions Jerusalem by name 600 times, Quaran mentions Jerusalem by name 0 times.

You got the picture.

The largest ethnic group of people who lived in Jerusalem (even some 50 years before first Zionist paper was published) were Jews. Jews also lived in the region specifically in West Bank since biblical times, and their presence in such cities as Hebron was uninterrupted until Palestinian Arabs started to slaughter tham in 1920s and state of Jordan forbid Jews to live in this holy city for them while Hebron was under Jordanian control.

Thank you.

------------------------------
Fight the bias, make the difference! :D

[Vance]

Raven knows his ****.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I'm looking for cake recipes.

[Vance]

I'm looking for cake recipes.
http://www.cakerecipies.com

[One?]

Don't forget firing rockets at a peaceful demonstration and then claiming they had weapons. Although all tv stations that were present at the demonstration claimed no weapons were present and videos show no weapons present....

[StarvingStudent47]

Don't forget firing rockets at a peaceful demonstration and then claiming they had weapons. Although all tv stations that were present at the demonstration claimed no weapons were present and videos show no weapons present....

What the **** is this a response to in this thread? RavenW's discussion of the definition of Zionism? Mocking's request for cake recipes? OR ARE YOU JUST TROLLING FOR FLAMES?!

[One?]

Don't forget about eating Palestinian babies

You're leaving out poisoning the wells with plague, and running the world's banking system. Imagine if the Templars and Rockefellers were us?


StartvingStuden: I was building on that....

[mocking_loudly_died]

Don't forget firing rockets at a peaceful demonstration and then claiming they had weapons. Although all tv stations that were present at the demonstration claimed no weapons were present and videos show no weapons present....

What the f*** is this a response to in this thread? RavenW's discussion of the definition of Zionism? Mocking's request for cake recipes? OR ARE YOU JUST TROLLING FOR FLAMES?!

Now now, upset boys get no sweet cake. :lol:

[Kilgor]

is the cake in the shape of two ****s ?

[mocking_loudly_died]

is the cake in the shape of two ****s ?

I was going for a more phallic design, just to be controversial.

[Kilgor]

better put a star of david on aswell, just to be sure

[AirZone]

Sorry I just noticed this topic and because there are sooo many replies already I might repeat someone.

Here is my definition.

Zionism is a desire of Jews to create and live in the state of their own. Period.

Original, zionists did NOT specifically mention any particular land or region for this Jewish state. The proposals went from African territory to the ilsands in Pacific. But since the historical heart of Jewish homeland was located West of Jordan River, they decided that it is important that Jews would return to the original roots of their lives.

For our discussion, Zionism is a desire of Jews to create and live in the state of their own.
Here is a definition for you. As simple as it is.



P.S. For those of you who think that there was some kind of "country" called Palestine in 19th century, that is NOT true.
Palestine was a region of Middle East. It was a REGION as Balkan in Europe. I hope you would not call "Balkans" to be a country in 19th century Europe.
Palestine incorporated present day State of Israel, West Bank of Jordan river, present Gaza Strip, state of Jordan itself and south-west of Syria and Southern border of Lebanon.

This region "Palestine" was under control of Ottoman Empire that had many other provinces in the world at that time.

Who lived in that region? many different ethnic groups, among them - Jews, Arabs, Armenians, Cherkess, Druses, Turks, some Greeks etc.

Now, Eastern European Jews who suffered greatly from anti-Semitism of their neighbours wanted to establish their new Jewish State in the region that was a place of the original Jewish State since they felt deep historical as well as religious connection with this land.

Moreover, it was natural for them to choose Palestine, since the holy city of Yerushalaim (Jerusalem) contained the holiest sites and symbols in Judaism and played tremendous importance in the formation of Jewish character and identity.

For example, Torah mentions Jerusalem by name 600 times, Quaran mentions Jerusalem by name 0 times.

You got the picture.

The largest ethnic group of people who lived in Jerusalem (even some 50 years before first Zionist paper was published) were Jews. Jews also lived in the region specifically in West Bank since biblical times, and their presence in such cities as Hebron was uninterrupted until Palestinian Arabs started to slaughter tham in 1920s and state of Jordan forbid Jews to live in this holy city for them while Hebron was under Jordanian control.

Thank you.

------------------------------
Fight the bias, make the difference! :D

Hmm.. Its kinda nice to know theres people in this forum who knows history and arnt feeding from any "objective" media. Nice post woot

[AirZone]

Don't forget firing rockets at a peaceful demonstration and then claiming they had weapons. Although all tv stations that were present at the demonstration claimed no weapons were present and videos show no weapons present.... Wrong topic ? :backhand:

Uh...I wonder why no one in the world overwhelmed about the Iraqi wedding. I guess its easier to make jews bad in the eyes of the world than big and strong USA :|

[StarvingStudent47]

Don't forget about eating Palestinian babies

You're leaving out poisoning the wells with plague, and running the world's banking system. Imagine if the Templars and Rockefellers were us?


StartvingStuden: I was building on that....

Oh, my apologies :) I mistook your joke for a serious comment. In retrospect, it was pretty funny :)

[Mr. Nielsen]

My point was that they were making meaningless resolutions IN THE 1970s. Resolution 181 was in the 1940s. Why is this distinction so hard for you to grasp?!

I'm not so sure that the 1940's were so much better than the 1970's in regard to making resolutions based on knowledge of the subject.

Personally, in regard to a general assembly resolution, I would have an eye to whether a majority of the worlds real democratic states support it. If not, I will not give it much credibility.

[Javehn]

Personally, in regard to a general assembly resolution, I would have an eye to whether a majority of the worlds real democratic states support it. If not, I will not give it much credibility.

Something suspicious arrise from this post . In your previous posts you never stop glorify UN Anti - Israel resolutions , and suddenly you would have an eye now for it's credeibility ?
Another UN anti Israel resolution added today .

[citizen-k]

Don't forget firing rockets at a peaceful demonstration and then claiming they had weapons. Although all tv stations that were present at the demonstration claimed no weapons were present and videos show no weapons present....

Very mature and realistic.

How about "doing there best not to kill dumb ass Palestinians who take their kids into the heart of the battle fileld"

I know you have a serious deniel personality issue, but please try to understand: Rafah is a war zone, those civilians marched into a battle field.

Now, how DUMB can a person be to march with his kids into such a place?

This thread is not about dumb ass Palestinian mental cases - it's about Zionism. Same Zionism which brought my grand-grand-grand father to Southern Lebanon/Northen Israel to teach YOUR family about modern agriculture.

Yes, 120 years ago Lebanon's agriculture knowledge was prehistorical, and my ancestor, who graduated the agriculture universtity in Paris came to Israel in order to develop it. So, in case any of your family members got anything to do with agriculture in Lebanon, now is a good time to thank zionism!

[Mr. Nielsen]

There is some disagreement as to whether the full article is legitimate.


Well, even CAMERA acknowledges that the letter is a hoax.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=370&x_article=370



However, there is NO disagreement that the sentiment is legitimate, as conveyed by the public encounter where Dr. King says "'Don't talk like that. When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

The source for this quote is apparently an article by Seymour Lipset from 1969, at least these three links refer to it:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/iaisrael/drmlk.htmlhttp://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclopedia/m/ma/martin_luther_king__jr_.html
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Quote/king.html

The Electronic Intifada also mentions Congressman John Lewis as being quoted for it. Congressman John Lewis, who knew Martin Luther King, refers to the quote, but there is no mention of him actually being at Harward hearing it.



Electronic Intifada denies this quote, so I guess you have to ask yourself: do you trust Electronic Intifada or Harvard Law School?

Electronic Intifada article doesn’t really deny the quote from the 1968 Harvard speech. They raise the question whether Martin Luther King actually was in Cambridge at the time. But so far it end with Seymour Lipset as source, and with no evidence to suggest he is either mistaken or a liar, then Martin Luther King might well have said the quote.

Harvard Law School is, unfortunately, far from being a guarantee for accuracy and integrity.

[Mr. Nielsen]

Personally, in regard to a general assembly resolution, I would have an eye to whether a majority of the worlds real democratic states support it. If not, I will not give it much credibility.

Something suspicious arrise from this post . In your previous posts you never stop glorify UN Anti - Israel resolutions , and suddenly you would have an eye now for it's credeibility ?
Another UN anti Israel resolution added today .

We were talking about General Assembly (GA) resolutions such as 181, where every country has a vote that count, regardless of democratic status.

The latest was a Security Council resolution with 14 in favour and the US abstaining. Of those 14, I would say that 9 are democratic states.

[Commie]

Sorry guys been away for awhile. Seen some answers i'd want to see and some posts that doesn't even belong here. Anyway SS47 some post back you replied to my previous answer well i do agree with you that all kind of nationalistic beliefs creates racism.

Tho i believe your countries nationalistic beliefs are stronger since it's required due to the situation. Sweden haven't fought a war in well a very long time tho we have a strong sense of nationality bubbling beneath the surface and are countires have racists and other scum like any other country.

Furthermore from my POV i pretty much despise nationalism so any form of it is bad according to me. Even swedish nationalism.

I don't hesitate that Martin Luther King Jr. supported the Zionists but you'll have to remember that was different days (both black and jews were fighting for their rights) i wouldn't be all to sure if he would give his full-hearted support today.

But now im a wee bit off topic... So ill ask anyone if they have some great tips that i can read... For example the Jewish State which Herzl wrote?
I guess the Torah would be a good book but im not really into religion or biblical studies :).

[StarvingStudent47]

Naw, don't bother with the Torah. Boring, repetitive, and utterly unrelated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If you want a novel that will help you empathise with the sentiments behind Zionism, try Leon Uris's Exodus or Herman Wouk's The Hope. These are both "historical fiction" in the sense that they track fictional people through real-world events. Both are compelling and fun novels to read. Exodus starts with the end of WWII and goes through the 1948 War. The Hope starts early in the 1948 War and goes through the 1967 War. Both books have been accused of being "Zionist propaganda," but then of course every single book that has ever said Israel has a right to exist has been accused of being "Zionist propaganda." Anyway, if you want to understand Zionism better, these books are where I would start, NOT the Torah or anything like that.

If you want a more concrete history text...I dunno, maybe someone else here has a suggestion of a good one to start with?

[RavenW]

1. Howard M. Sachar "History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679765638/qid=1085119216/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/102-9307816-5444963?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

The best book I read so far. Honest and balanced, even though a little bit to the left of center. I personally tend to be a little to the right of center. But I think it is still a centrists in its views.


2. Alan Dershowitz "Case for Israel" ... that's how I wanted to call my project first. Then, I changed the title for "Israel and Palestine: The look of Bystander". That book inspired me to start my own project, since I truely believe that behind all imperfections and crimes, Israel comes up clean and great country like my home - USA. And everyone, I mean even Palestinians (if they are good persons) should support it.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/047146502X/ref=pd_bxgy_img_2/102-9307816-5444963?v=glance&s=books

The book is a bit weak, cause I did not find answers for the most passionate accusations that I tend to hear from ignoramus-simplisicus and/or just plain old anti-Semites (both have some bias against Israel, but both tend to have some bias against microwaves and cable TV, so go figure)... but its interesting to read, any way.

If you want to read just one, go for Sachar's "History of Israel". more than 1000 pages of detailed history with facts and documents and the guy was Harvard's leading history professor at some point.

[wiking]

Why do everyone have to be so seriouse?
Let's lighten up the mood a bit, shall we.

http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/cartoon/057.gif

[AirZone]

Why do everyone have to be so seriouse?
Let's lighten up the mood a bit, shall we.

http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/cartoon/057.gif
rofl good one

[Mr. Nielsen]

I can recommend "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001" by Benny Morris. A good book describing the conflict from an Israeli point of view, based on archieval material.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679744754/qid=1085139054/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9076356-3185722?v=glance&s=books


Harvard Law School is, unfortunately, far from being a guarantee for accuracy and integrity.

It was exactly Alan Dershowitz I had in mind, when writing that line. "The Case for Israel" is better to be avoided.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I can recommend "Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-2001" by Benny Morris. A good book describing the conflict from an Israeli point of view, based on archieval material.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679744754/qid=1085139054/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9076356-3185722?v=glance&s=books


Harvard Law School is, unfortunately, far from being a guarantee for accuracy and integrity.

It was exactly Alan Dershowitz I had in mind, when writing that line. "The Case for Israel" is better to be avoided.
I read parts of it ( A case for Israel). It was all backed up by factual info.

[Javehn]

Benny Moris . Offcorse , it comes more clear now . The man that is hated by both sides . To tell that this book represent any view of Israeli side is typically ignorent to you Nielsen . His first book "Birth of Palestine refugess" were disprooved by both sides , the Palestinian and Israeli , as he falsely tried to claim mass murderers of Palestinian inhibitants of Israel . In one particular case he even makes mistake and calling one villadge as a place of disastor , when this villadge was empty on arrival , except one guard .

His next book claims not only genoside , but he also says it was neccesary for new born Israel state to survive , i bellieve it is the one you are talking about . So let me tell you about this from Israeli point of view , or at list mine : I use it to wipe the **** from my ass after i leave the toilet . So typical , "Israeli point of view " . And the fact that you don't know his brother in arms Noam Chumskiy is even more suspicios . Something is telling me you are not good understander of situation as you pretend to be .


King regards to you i wish not .

[Mr. Nielsen]

I read parts of it ( A case for Israel). It was all backed up by factual info.

It's exactly one of the unfortunate features of the book, that it gives the impression of being a scientific work. But in reality it's full of factual errors, distortions and plagiarism.

Below is a link to a Democracy Now interview where Alan Dershowitz is confronted by Norman Finkelstein. The broadcast is rather long, but interesting and quite entertaining.

http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/demand/2003/sept/256/dnB20030924a.rm&proto=rtsp&start=07:10.3

After watching the interview, I bought "The Case for Israel" and got my library to lend me a copy of the book, mentioned in the interview, by Joan Peters. And I verified that everything that Finkelstein pointed out in the interview was correct.

[IDFM203]

Mr. Nielsen,

Ok I was bored so I decided to check out that video ;)

First let me remind you that I did not read Dershowitz book so I am not in any way endorsing that book, I am simply going to comment on that video and my thoughts in general about those two debating there.

Well I will start off with my comments on those two. So let me see here, you have a left liberal arguing against a extremist left liberal “jew” and these are the people that are arguing for or against the facts? Though I am sure I would respect Dershowitz book (though I will have to read it to make that conclusion) more so then any finklestin, chumsky or benny morris, book, to me all of those books are viewd with great skepticism.

Now in the video what I saw was Norman finklestien stoop to the very low level of constant tripe and personal attacks on Mr. Dershowitz instead of focusing ONLY on disputing the facts on the CONFLICT itself that he claims he writes in his book.

I was very very unimpressed with Norman finklestien.

IMO if he has a case then he should have spent more time on it then the actual amount of time he did.

Now first I saw him claim that he did plagiarism, now I did not read the book so I cant comment on that but however the examples Norman finklstien brought, even if plagiarism, so? he does not dispute the facts of what mark twain said or things like that.

Secondly he then tries to dispute Dershowitz by bringing b’tsalem but they don’t have any proof to dispute what Dershowitz said, all they do is make a case based on pali "witnesses" as if I am supposed to really take that as proof :roll:


So no I didn’t really see anything of real substance on the issues of the conflict that were in dispute but rather all I saw was little irrelevant nuances that Norman finklstien tried to get Dershowitz on.

Anyways that’s my take on that video clip.

Now I am sure there is a whole written case by Norman finklerstin so perhaps there he has a lot more substance on disputing Dershowitz’s claims on the conflict, but just from that video clip I didn’t see much that really made his book look factually false on the substantive issues!!!!

Shalom :D

[StarvingStudent47]

If I understand his question correctly, Commie was looking for a book about Zionism, written from a Zionist perspective. Not a book about Zionism written by the anti-Israel far-left, which is what Mr. Nielsen is suggesting.

I haven't read Dershowitz's A Case for Israel myself yet, but I've heard many good reviews of it. That's a good place to start in terms of non-fiction (I still recommend Exodus or The Hope as well, because though they can't address the details of history as well because of their format, they really capture the emotion behind Zionism).