Germany on the verge of forbidding Scientology

[muck]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,521992,00.html

The Interior Minister's conference, a joint semi-legislative body of the IMs of the federation and the states, has unanimously labelled Scientology as "contradicting" to the constitution and ordered the domestic intelligence service BfV to prepare a dossier on which's base a ban of Scientology is supposed to follow. The sect is not recognized as a church in Germany.

[Lov3ll]

I can understand not recognising them as a church but should they really be banned? seems to be going a bit to far. I can't read German can anyone tell me the specific reasons for banning them? what goes against the constitution?

[Snoshi]

Good Job Germany!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

As much as I think Scientology is on the fringe of being classified as weird.

I do believe that people should be free in exploring/practicing matters of faith freely and without state intervention.

[theholeinthedonut]

I can understand not recognising them as a church but should they really be banned? seems to be going a bit to far. I can't read German can anyone tell me the specific reasons for banning them? what goes against the constitution?


As much as I think Scientology is on the fringe of being classified as weird.

I do believe that people should be free in exploring/practicing matters of faith freely and without state intervention.

It's not about their beliefs but about the way they manipulate people and try to covertly gain political power. The german move is not related at all to religious motivations.

[muck]

According to the IMK's statement, the following aspects meet with criticism here and will be the base for a federation-wide ban of Scientology:
The structure of Scientology has totalitarian traits according to sociologists
"Rehabilitation project force" for 'renegade' members is seen as brainwashing by experts
Violation of Basic Rights Article 10, Basic Law (Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications) of Scientology members
Illegal restraint of alleged escapists
Indoctrinating programmes for children and pupils camouflaged as for example private coaching services
Treatment of dropouts (main point of criticism): There have happened several incidents when former members, stalked by alleged Scientologists, became psychotic, once a former member even was driven into suicide by a bunch of stalkers

[kilroy1911]

thats good news!

danger of scientology si, that they are trying to convict not ordinary (=poor or at least not wealthy) people, but wealthy and influential. That means that they can gain control over individuals which on important positions which may not be 100% loyal to their positions when they are under the influence of the sect. They also use this network to gain for example business advantage - this is also one of the reasons why they are so succesful in persuading wealthy people - membership in sect can give them considerable advantages in their business.


Another thing is - that these people are paying money to the sect which gets richer and richer and can be more influential etc...

[MichaelF]

The core of the matter is not Scientology's "beliefs", but their continual practice of Entryism. Trying to coopt or otherwise manipulate businesses and government entities is not a recipe for being left alone...

The other inconvenient fact, that they are essentially a religious front for a very large and sophisticated Pyramid Scheme, doesn't help their case.

[CG51]

Your a sharp dude MichaelF, good post.

Good for Germany!

[Snoshi]

http://www.lermanet.com/image/southpark-sue-you.jpg

[Miles.]

Nice move, Germany.

[CG51]

http://www.lermanet.com/image/southpark-sue-you.jpg

HEHE, the ending was great, all the cast and production members were John and Jane Smith :lol:

[Billy No Mates]

Normally i would abhore a state curtailing the individuals right to believe whatever they want(however pointless and stupid),but as this is sure to chaff of Tom Cruise then i think it can only be a good thing to curtail the activities of these dead eyed freaks .

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Everything the Church of Scientology has been accused of. Every single other church has at some point done the same thing.

Look, all religions have experienced repression, condemnation and ridicule in their early years. Look what happened to Jesus? Luther?

Who is to say people like Anton LaVey and L. Ron Hubbard in a thousand years will not be considered or looked at in the same light?

Fact is. All religions have had to start somewhere. When they shift considerably from the norm they face monumental problems in establishing themselves.

I see no difference to what is happening with Scientology and Satanism then what happened to early Christians. The similarities are striking.

[theholeinthedonut]

Everything the Church of Scientology has been accused of. Every single other church has at some point done the same thing.

Look, all religions have experienced repression, condemnation and ridicule in their early years. Look what happened to Jesus? Luther?

Who is to say people like Anton LaVey and L. Ron Hubbard in a thousand years will not be considered or looked at in the same light?

Fact is. All religions have had to start somewhere. When they shift considerably from the norm they face monumental problems in establishing themselves.

I see no difference to what is happening with Scientology and Satanism then what happened to early Christians. The similarities are striking.

If the early day christians behaved like todays scientology I would have been all in favor for them getting the same treatment as scientology gets today in germany.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Your looking at it in a similar fashion to how the Romans viewed Jesus.

Look at it from outside the box.

[tsuri]

It is good to ban this unconstitutional corporation. Their products are fraudulent and their membership practices are weird.

I fear however that a long legal battle could follow which would just cost us money.


Everything the Church of Scientology has been accused of. Every single other church has at some point done the same thing.

we live today in an age where such practices are fortunately illegal for everyone. Beeing a church is not an apology to start abusing people's rights. Churches are highly illogical cults. There was a reason we replaced their belief in magic with rule of law and universal human rights.
And last, even if you give churches some leeway in their fanatism, Scientology is not a church but a corporation.

[Jaeger07]

Your looking at it in a similar fashion to how the Romans viewed Jesus.

Look at it from outside the box.

The Romans were smart and had the greatest civilization of their time. What are you trying to say?

[muck]

They persecuted the Christians nonetheless. However, Germany does not take steps against the personal faith of anyone and less than ever uses the same measures against Scientologists like those the Romans used, or does it?

I laughed my ass off just now when reading the US State departement statement about their concerns regarding the alleged constraint of freedom of religion in Germany...

[hank]

Everything the Church of Scientology has been accused of. Every single other church has at some point done the same thing.

Look, all religions have experienced repression, condemnation and ridicule in their early years. Look what happened to Jesus? Luther?

Who is to say people like Anton LaVey and L. Ron Hubbard in a thousand years will not be considered or looked at in the same light?

Fact is. All religions have had to start somewhere. When they shift considerably from the norm they face monumental problems in establishing themselves.

I see no difference to what is happening with Scientology and Satanism then what happened to early Christians. The similarities are striking.

I don't profess to know much about Scientilogy but I think I know this. L. Ron Hubbard wrote a science fiction novel which he and a friend decided to turn into a religion. So, they bought a converted hospital ship and took the chosen few on a long voyage, after which the chosen few had no money and L. Ron Hubbard was personally wealthy. Thus began scientology. If I have any of that wrong please let me know (I saw that on a documentary).

I fail to see the connection to Jesus. You point that all religions start out a little far-fetched is well made though. Sounds like the difference here is that the German government fears their might be ulterior motives.

I would agree that "banning" seems a little severe if your concern is that Scientology might be trying to take over your conutry or something. Who knows though, you should see those guys recruit in the NY subway terminals. Its impressive. They have those machines they hook you up to and they dress well.

hank

[akd]

Doesn't sound like their addressing anyone's personal beliefs, but going after Scientology as a corporate entity (which it is).

[Snoshi]

I would agree that "banning" seems a little severe if your concern is that Scientology might be trying to take over your conutry or something. Who knows though, you should see those guys recruit in the NY subway terminals. Its impressive. They have those machines they hook you up to and they dress well.

hank
You mean like this?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Stresstest.jpg

[theholeinthedonut]

Just "looking from outside the box" for the sake for it, as a kind of "l'art pour l'art" is intellectual onany. I can look at it from several perspectives and the facts will still be the same. It is not important what might develop out of todays scientology ( replace it with what ever faith of philosophy you which)! What matters is the actions they take today and the legality of those actions. I do not care about anybodys beliefs at all, everybody is entitled to his own beliefs just as he sees it fit. What i can't ignore though,is if someone's beliefs take him to take illegal or totaliatrian actions and restricts other peoples freedoms. Then it is not about freedom of religion anymore but about the basic freedoms of the individual and the rule of law. In the western societies we freely choose to entrust our elected government with the enforcment of the laws and the preservation of our individual freedoms. It is the duty of those governements to control any organization or entity that endangers those rights. The instruments given by law to the german state and it's agencies are very strict and rather restrictive, seeing an unjust and totalitarian act in the german actions is understandable, from your point of view, as you are not as familiar with the political and social situation in germany, nonetheless I can't concur with your views.

[hank]

You mean like this?

You got it. When I figured out that was Scientology I was admittedly a little shaken up. I'd never seen their active recruitment before.

hank

[ronnieraygun]

Just "looking from outside the box" for the sake for it, as a kind of "l'art pour l'art" is intellectual onany.

This is the best thing I have read all day.

[Cralis]

Wow. If you can't "see" the differences then you obviously haven't done ANY looking.

[Doublethinker]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,521992,00.html

The Interior Minister's conference, a joint semi-legislative body of the IMs of the federation and the states, has unanimously labelled Scientology as "contradicting" to the constitution and ordered the domestic intelligence service BfV to prepare a dossier on which's base a ban of Scientology is supposed to follow. The sect is not recognized as a church in Germany.

So they FIRST decide to ban a party and THEN ask for some kind of evidence to be gathered to give the ban some legitimacy in the eyes of the people?

Shouldn't it be the other way round: first gathering info and analyzing it, and only then making a decision based on ALL available info?

[Fargin]

Hopefully the rest of EU will follow.

[Vorian]

It is good to ban this unconstitutional corporation. Their products are fraudulent and their membership practices are weird.

I fear however that a long legal battle could follow which would just cost us money.


we live today in an age where such practices are fortunately illegal for everyone. Beeing a church is not an apology to start abusing people's rights. Churches are highly illogical cults. There was a reason we replaced their belief in magic with rule of law and universal human rights.
And last, even if you give churches some leeway in their fanatism, Scientology is not a church but a corporation.


What wrong exactly are they doing?
From what I know they are a group popular for celebrities in Hollywood and seem to believe some pretty weird stuff about aliens , but this is what I got from South park

[muck]

@Doublethinker

They ordered the creation of a dossier to emphasize the necessarity of a ban, yes. This happens due to the federative structure of Germany: In fact each of the German states has it's own domestic intelligence service which have gained a plenty of incriminating informations about Scientology. For the notes: However, since Scientology does operate federation-wide, the federal government is the only instance which can forbid the sect, so the federal domestic intelligence service has to do another run.

@Vorian



The structure of Scientology has totalitarian traits according to sociologists
"Rehabilitation project force" for 'renegade' members is seen as brainwashing by experts
Violation of Basic Rights Article 10, Basic Law (Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications) of Scientology members
Illegal restraint of alleged escapists
Indoctrinating programmes for children and pupils camouflaged as for example private coaching services
Treatment of dropouts (main point of criticism): There have happened several incidents when former members, stalked by alleged Scientologists, became psychotic, once a former member even was driven into suicide by a bunch of stalkers

[Doublethinker]

The core of the matter is not Scientology's "beliefs", but their continual practice of Entryism. Trying to coopt or otherwise manipulate businesses and government entities is not a recipe for being left alone...



Same can be said about such organizations as Opus Dei, yet we don't see the gov't picking their track, do we?

I think it pretty much IS about their beliefs.

[DavidDCM]

So they FIRST decide to ban a party and THEN ask for some kind of evidence to be gathered to give the ban some legitimacy in the eyes of the people?

Shouldn't it be the other way round: first gathering info and analyzing it, and only then making a decision based on ALL available info?

No, they have gathered infos beforehand, than decide that a ban might be appropiate and than (what they are doing now) collect all these informations in a "juristic acceptable" expertise.

And again, it's not to forbid people what they shall belief. Even if Scientology will be forbidden, the German members will be allowed to keep their faith. It's not the religion Scientology that is to be forbidden, it's the organisation Scientology that is.

[theholeinthedonut]

Same can be said about such organizations as Opus Dei, yet we don't see the gov't picking their track, do we?

I think it pretty much IS about their beliefs.

MP.NET Double Dumbarse of the week 05 - 09 November 07/12 - 16 November 07

EDIT: I'm pretty much speechless......so quoting your user title this was all I could think of...anyhow even trying hard I really do not find anything I could reply.

[Freibier]

Scientology had it comming, hope the EU follows suit after we banned this corporation and their business practice

[Invisigoth]

I have a Scientology Centre down the street from me here in Paris. I find it really creepy personally. They often have a dozen of young well-dressed people hanging out and trying to convince people of taking their "free stress tests". All of their information and posters in the window refers only to stress tests, literature, anti-drug etc. and does in no way mention anything about their screwed up pseudo-religion.

And it works..

[Vorian]

@Vorian




* The structure of Scientology has totalitarian traits according to sociologists
* "Rehabilitation project force" for 'renegade' members is seen as brainwashing by experts
* Violation of Basic Rights Article 10, Basic Law (Privacy of correspondence, posts and telecommunications) of Scientology members
* Illegal restraint of alleged escapists
* Indoctrinating programmes for children and pupils camouflaged as for example private coaching services
* Treatment of dropouts (main point of criticism): There have happened several incidents when former members, stalked by alleged Scientologists, became psychotic, once a former member even was driven into suicide by a bunch of stalkers


They seem like a nasty group don't they?

[Calanen]

As much as I think Scientology is on the fringe of being classified as weird.

I do believe that people should be free in exploring/practicing matters of faith freely and without state intervention.

It's a scam masquerading as a religion. They do things like get disabled people that have big compensation payouts to join and take all their money.

If you join, you have to pay more and more money to the organisation to advance through it. If you don't have the money, they encourage you to mortgage your house, or loan from the Church at high credit card interest rates. Eventually, you have nothing left, the Church has taken it all.

That's what makes them dangerous. But the con is clever -call yourself a religion, and the authorities have to leave you alone. But Germany is calling their bluff, and I say, that is a good thing.

[Calanen]

Same can be said about such organizations as Opus Dei, yet we don't see the gov't picking their track, do we?

I think it pretty much IS about their beliefs.


Opus Dei does not engage in systematic fraud to con people out of their money. Scientology does, and it uses the cloak of religious freedom to continue to perpetrate this fraud.

[phoebus]

Hopefully the rest of EU will follow.

More like Germany's following our (Hellas) example? :)

Good move, Europe should ship them back to Orion's belt or wherever they came from.



Hellas, January 1999

KEFE (scientology) is ordered by the Court of Appeals to shut down and liquidate. In its judgment, the court describes KEFE as "an organization with totalitarian structures and trends, which despises man, aims at power and money, teaches the survival of the powerful and ruthless, applies dangerous methods without preventing the possibility of suicide of its members, brainwashing them and corroding its opponents' reputation."


more here (http://www.raids.org/gen00586.htm)

[Doublethinker]

MP.NET Double Dumbarse of the week 05 - 09 November 07/12 - 16 November 07

EDIT: I'm pretty much speechless......so quoting your user title this was all I could think of...anyhow even trying hard I really do not find anything I could reply.

When will you stop stalking me?

You appear in virtually every thread I post to say the same thing. Its actually trolling.

Harden the fvck up already.

[Doublethinker]

No, they have gathered infos beforehand, than decide that a ban might be appropiate and than (what they are doing now) collect all these informations in a "juristic acceptable" expertise.


OK, thanks for clarifying that, it wasn't obvious from the short summary in English.



And again, it's not to forbid people what they shall belief. Even if Scientology will be forbidden, the German members will be allowed to keep their faith. It's not the religion Scientology that is to be forbidden, it's the organisation Scientology that is.

Strange. Its same as saying, that we can forbid Catholic church but not forbid catholicism. The organisation may be an integral part of the belief.

[Doublethinker]

I have a Scientology Centre down the street from me here in Paris. I find it really creepy personally. They often have a dozen of young well-dressed people hanging out and trying to convince people of taking their "free stress tests". All of their information and posters in the window refers only to stress tests, literature, anti-drug etc. and does in no way mention anything about their screwed up pseudo-religion.

And it works..

Haha. We are in the same situation here then.

I have such a center one block away from my house. Same propaganda of rejection of drugs, some 'sucess stories' of their members as well as some tests which help you understand why you fail at life (when I told the recruiter that I was satisfied with my life and that all the goals I have not yet achieved, I will achieve later myself, she kept smiling silently giving me blank stare for a couple of seconds - as if there was an error in the program and the system had to be rebooted ;) ).

I visited their center once, started taking the test, but it was too long, I said I didn't have the time for it and walked away.

I saw the same recruiter a couple of times after that, we greeted each other, yet she didn't try to convince me to try it once again.

[Doublethinker]

Opus Dei does not engage in systematic fraud to con people out of their money. Scientology does, and it uses the cloak of religious freedom to continue to perpetrate this fraud.

While there's much truth to what you are saying, the arguement, that I was replying to, was based on the assumption that scientology is being acted against because of its entryism policy, and attempts to achieve not only economical but also political goals this way.

Opus Dei is pretty much the same story, it had especially great political power in Spain. Even some catholics believe it to be some sort of a 'catholic freemason society'.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Guys, look, Scientologists are frauds, yes. But they aren't robbing people on the street. Look, it's people's choice where to spend their money, and if they want spend it on ridiculously expensive Scientology classes then that's their choice. It's not the government's role to stop people from making stupid decisions with their money.

[RS_Leo1A5]

Concerning Scientology:
Go to http://www.xenu.net/.
Read.
Think.
Understand.

[conefire]

Once it gets as far as illegal restraint and downright terrorizing, it is.

[RS_Leo1A5]

Megaraptor;2917977']It's not the government's role to stop people from making stupid decisions with their money.
Conning people out of their money is a crime.
Conning people out of their money is Scientology's business model.

=> Scientology is a criminal organization.

[Albatross]

I work with one of these whack jobs. She is in sales, makes around 300k a year. She was giving almost all of it to the "church" for the first part of the year.

[muttbutt]

Conning people out of their money is a crime.
Conning people out of their money is Scientology's business model.

=> Scientology is a criminal organization.
Plus I don't know how legally binding a 10 billion year contract can be.........:roll:

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Conning people out of their money is a crime.
Conning people out of their money is Scientology's business model.

How are they conning people?

Conning people is promising something, taking someone's money and not following through with your promise.

AFAIK, Scientology classes are ridiculously expensive, but you do get to go to actual classes for the money. You can't stop people from buying $200,000 toilet seats if that's what they want to buy.

[SupportTheTroops_5]

it is the most outrageous religion out there. you have to pay to be a member, they believe that a science fiction writer's word is true, and they never really let you escape the religion. they are almost as bad as "presleyterians" http://www.geocities.com/presleyterian_church/

but if people really want to do it you should let them i guess, it would be their fault if they realized they were ripped off

[MichaelF]

Same can be said about such organizations as Opus Dei, yet we don't see the gov't picking their track, do we?
.

Opus Dei does not detain people illegally, harass ex-members and/or attempt to coopt other organizations. Nor do they engage in False Flag and front operations. Nor are they a blatant Pyramid Scheme (which is illegal). Nor do they engage in Entryism (which is a legal definition, not what you think it means).

They've been accused of some of the above, without success.

Difference is, the Scientologists keep getting caught red-handed doing so. They are, demonstrably, guilty of what they are accused of.

Lastly, the German .gov has the legal and constitutional power to suppress anti-democratic organizations.

[Johnny_H02]

Look at this interview, creepy.

http://www.xenutv.com/andreas/index.html

[khukuri]

they believe that a science fiction writer's word is true,



So what do you call the ones who wrote the bible and koran?


I think one need to be very careful with this, if anything gets banned, it should be the organisation for criminal activity. Not the religioin it self.

[theholeinthedonut]

When will you stop stalking me?

You appear in virtually every thread I post to say the same thing. Its actually trolling.

Harden the fvck up already.

Maybe it is because you keep on ignoring all the irrefutable facts that people bring onto the table and persist on writing the dumbest things possible. That's life my friend, if you behave like a five year old kid you will be treated accordingly. If you keep on interrupting the grown up's discussion with arsehattery and your usual clownery you will be slapped on the wrist! So like you said: harden the feck up, with your whining about stalking and trolling you are making an arse out of yourself.

[Eztyga]

Megaraptor;2917977']Guys, look, Scientologists are frauds, yes. But they aren't robbing people on the street. Look, it's people's choice where to spend their money, and if they want spend it on ridiculously expensive Scientology classes then that's their choice. It's not the government's role to stop people from making stupid decisions with their money.

They are robbing people on the streets. I work in the CBD in Sydney, their head-office is around the corner from where I work. They regularly set up their 'testing equipment', which is nothing more than an ohm meter which at best tests the resistance of your skin. They use psychology on people to con them into thinking that there is a something missing in their lives, personality etc.

If that isn't criminal, then what is? Go and speak to them, then tell me what you think. I humoured them to get an insight to their methods, as a technician the use of an ohm meter tells me a lot, the ignorant might be impressed, I wasn't. When I was working full time as a electronics tech I used a multi-meter everyday, it is nothing more than a tool. It dosn't measure your shortcomings...:cantbeli:

Ezy

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

They are robbing people on the streets. I work in the CBD in Sydney, their head-office is around the corner from where I work. They regularly set up their 'testing equipment', which is nothing more than an ohm meter which at best tests the resistance of your skin. They use psychology on people to con them into thinking that there is a something missing in their lives, personality etc.

If that isn't criminal, then what is? Go and speak to them, then tell me what you think. I humoured them to get an insight to their methods, as a technician the use of an ohm meter tells me a lot, the ignorant might be impressed, I wasn't. When I was working full time as a electronics tech I used a multi-meter everyday, it is nothing more than a tool. It dosn't measure your shortcomings...:cantbeli:

Ezy

Dude, like I said, if people want to buy a $200,000 toilet seat, that's their choice...

[phoebus]

Megaraptor;2918252']Dude, like I said, if people want to buy a $200,000 toilet seat, that's their choice...

The problem could be as well that your level of understanding on this important issue seems to be rather concentrated on some sort of a Bed, Toilet Seats & Beyond offer.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

The problem is that your level of understanding on this issue is solely concentrated on some sort of Bed, Toilet Seats & Beoynd brochure offer.

Whatever man, I just believe people should be allowed to spend their own money how they please...

[phoebus]

Megaraptor;2918259']Whatever man, I just believe people should be allowed to spend their own money how they please...

Sure, but Scientology isn't just a can of spam that you buy on Sainsburys.

[Eztyga]

Megaraptor;2918252']Dude, like I said, if people want to buy a $200,000 toilet seat, that's their choice...

People who can afford a $200,000 dollar toilet seat do so, people who are naive can ill afford to have their wages skimmed off by an organisation pushing itself as a legitimate religion.

Ezy

[theholeinthedonut]

Megaraptor;2918259']Whatever man, I just believe people should be allowed to spend their own money how they please...

It is not about the fact that they give their money, it's about the way people are coaxed into "giving" it. The more, this is not the main concern of the german authorities, they are much more worried about their brain washing, treatment of the dropouts and the clear effort to undermine society on every level, as well politics, governement, business. Every religion is tolerated in germany as long as they stay within the boundaries of the laws, who would have an interest to hassle and persecute scientology for no good reason?

[Morboute]

I think im gona move to Germany soon, its just getting better and better. :)

[naymeria]

Megaraptor;2918259']Whatever man, I just believe people should be allowed to spend their own money how they please...


Not if they are buying it, because their freedom of choice has been manipulated.


Why do think subliminal advertsing is illegal, otherwise? In the usa, i don't know, but it is illegal for the EU.


Nay

[Doublethinker]

Maybe it is because you keep on ignoring all the irrefutable facts that people bring onto the table and persist on writing the dumbest things possible. That's life my friend, if you behave like a five year old kid you will be treated accordingly. If you keep on interrupting the grown up's discussion with arsehattery and your usual clownery you will be slapped on the wrist! So like you said: harden the feck up, with your whining about stalking and trolling you are making an arse out of yourself.

Aside from you, if you haven't noticed, other members are having a normal discussion here.

You are close to 40 yourself. If you find my posts insulting, report them. If you find them not worth of your time, don't read them. But don't bitch and moan in every thread, contributing zero to the discussion. You are acting much more immature.

[muck]

According to the latest news, the ban will be enacted in autumn 2008 unless something unforseen happens.

[Calanen]

Everything the Church of Scientology has been accused of. Every single other church has at some point done the same thing.



Perhaps. The difference is that the Catholic Church is not entirely geared up to systematically fleece its members of their money. Scientology is. Scientology is just a big scam, that hides behind the cloak of religion.

[lider_r]

Good Job Germany!

amen!

as someone who has an interest in the mental health area, its best that scientologists are sidelined. They prey on the vulnerable.

[lider_r]

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/eVx5pIi00Mo

[Johnny_H02]

Scientologists creep me out well the argumentative ones, here is why.
They never take a clear stance, they just sort of dissmissivly restate the same thing over again.That whole "of all the problems in the world" argument he clung to is childish? and is in blatent disregard for common sense.If the man in the interview I posted felt that the practices of Scientology are a problem in the world worth notating and educating people about.That is a simple concept that the Scientologist really seemed to not understand?

It is downright creepy, maybe because that guy in the video can totally be destroyed in his own debate with his own points that he brings up and its nothing to him like it doesn't matter.To be that immune to common sense or self awareness is mind blowing and people with that sort of complex could do some pretty terrible things, and have done so history reflects this.

Whether its letting people die of starvation or deprivation, keeping them out of hospitals for treatment that can ether save their lives or prolong them.Forbidding psychiatric help to those who need it, sucking the financial life out of people who cannot afford to lose those funds.

Its truly a creepy underhanded organization/corporation.
That Operationclambake site really sheds allot of light.

But just from random interviews alone, just the way these scientologists argue their case its almost like they seem brainwashed.At least if I were to go to a minister of a Christian Church, or a Mosque or any other religion with a recognized text which is considered sacred and not the works of a Science Fiction writer all my points will be addressed with lines or verses from scripture and not a dismissive accusation ridden "look the other way" series of statements.

[RS_Leo1A5]

Megaraptor;2918034']How are they conning people?

Conning people is promising something, taking someone's money and not following through with your promise.
First they convince you that you have a problem (all of their "personality" and "intelligence" test are constructed so that the results show that you have "problems" no matter what you answer).
Then they promise to help you with these problems (problems they invented and manipulated you to believing them) and lead you to "salvation" (or whatever the Scientology equievalent is).
And the solution is so simple - devote your life to the "church", convert or abandon your friends and relatives and, most importantly, give all your money, to the last cent, to Scientology.
Only money can save your soul (or thetan)!

[RS_Leo1A5]

Megaraptor;2918252']Dude, like I said, if people want to buy a $200,000 toilet seat, that's their choice...
That's the point!
They dont wan't to buy a $200,000 toilet seat they are told they absolutely must buy a $200,000 toilet seat - because only the $200,000 toilet seat can save their soul!
And that's only the start. In six month they will have to buy a $250,000 toilet seat to continue their absolutely necessary "therapy".
And in a year they'll have to buy a $350,000 toilet seat... and so on.

[lider_r]

for those with some spare time on their hands, there is a discussion here (http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewthread/1251/P0/) on the Sam Harris forum about somebody's experience with 'the church'

Its amusing to say the least.

[cx2115]

Megaraptor;2918259']Whatever man, I just believe people should be allowed to spend their own money how they please...
I agree. However, I don't think that's the point. Businesses may not make false statements about their products or services, corporations may not lie to their investors, manufacturers have a duty of care to insure their products are not actively harmful, etc etc etc.

+1 to Germany, IMO.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

That's the point!
They dont wan't to buy a $200,000 toilet seat they are told they absolutely must buy a $200,000 toilet seat - because only the $200,000 toilet seat can save their soul!

And people don't have free will to make that decision to sign the check? Why should people be mommied and daddied by the government to keep them from spending their money on stupid stuff?

[muttbutt]

Megaraptor;2918686']And people don't have free will to make that decision to sign the check? Why should people be mommied and daddied by the government to keep them from spending their money on stupid stuff?
Well extortion is illigal, you ever see that BBC programme where they were trailed by car's own by the COS, or when he was interviwing a guy about the "church" out in the middle of nowhere a car pulls up a guy from the "church" gets out and starts reading from a dossier about incidents/run in's with the law/personal problems the guy had in the past.....yeah every normal church does deep background checks on people

[naymeria]

Megaraptor;2918686']And people don't have free will to make that decision to sign the check? Why should people be mommied and daddied by the government to keep them from spending their money on stupid stuff?

Your answers make me wonder if you have read what people are posting about the organization or if you are in that bulky age where it's more important to stand by one's own issues at all costs rather than comprehending.

If you are buying something without knowing what you are really buying (They sell you something different from what they say it is) or having been manipulated into buying it, then that's fraud, ortheft, or extortion. And the gov't does not only have the right to intervene, but it's its duty to intervene.

Whereas you may wish to live in some wild west world where pseudo-medicine men can sell you miraclous all ailment healing mixtures, which send you to the hospital, most people don't. Because that's not freedom anymore, but a distorted sort of anarchy, with no protection of the vulnerable and which in the end only gives smart criminals the freedom to damage you.

Nay

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

If you are buying something without knowing what you are really buying (They sell you something different from what they say it is) or having been manipulated into buying it, then that's fraud, ortheft, or extortion. And the gov't does not only have the right to intervene, but it's its duty to intervene.

I understand that. I just don't see how people who pay for Scientology training are buying something different than what the sellers say it is. They are, in fact, buying Scientology training...that's understood by both parties.

[phoebus]

Megaraptor;2920252']They are, in fact, buying Scientology training...that's understood by both parties.

They are manipulated and brainwashed to do so, so again, nope. I beleive there's no reason to repeat your baseless argument once it's been reapeatedly proven wrong.

[xav]

I have a Scientology Centre down the street from me here in Paris. I find it really creepy personally. They often have a dozen of young well-dressed people hanging out and trying to convince people of taking their "free stress tests". All of their information and posters in the window refers only to stress tests, literature, anti-drug etc. and does in no way mention anything about their screwed up pseudo-religion.

And it works..

Really???

I was 100% sure Scientology was considered a sect (therefore closely monitored) in France.


La Scientologie est considérée comme une secte par le ******* parlementaire français de 1995 qui dresse une liste indicative des sectes.

Scientology is regarded as a sect by the parliamentary report french of 1995 which gives an indicative list of sects.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I was 100% sure Scientology was considered a sect (therefore closely monitored) in France.

So is protestant Christianity, so I wouldn't trust France's definition of a "sect."


They are manipulated and brainwashed to do so

That's called "advertising" and it happens everywhere.

[ZhukovG]

Finally a country is doing something against that strange and crazy Cult,

[muck]

Authorities have shut down a kindergarten in Munich today, the board of which was completely composed of Scientology members. The Verfassungsschutz, the State's Domestic Intelligence Service, has found out that despite contrary statements of the members of the board, employees of the facility have tried to influence the toddlers with teachings psychologically close to those of L.R. Hubbard. The parents haven't been aware of what happened there behind closed doors.

I totally appreciate this measure. It only emphasizes the threat Scientology means to those who are not cautious if they actually try to manipulate children of that age!

[Mastermind]

The cult should be banned everywhere...including the USA...they are as nuts as the fcknig mu....oops...better not go that far...don't want to get banned.

Sorry...my mistake...never mind.

[Freedom-Fries]

Scientology owns your towns people

http://www.youtube.com/v/IQLcWnJpL5c

[toki]

This one is funny:

Some German woman, who is a 'critic' arrives at some Airport in the U.S.:
One German member of the welcoming comitee says, "you kill people in Germany". In the end you hear this German person again. "That hit". The way she says it, sounds mentally challenged. Really odd.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4EYS7SpFTEI

Checked it: Ursula Caberta y Diaz, German politician. Authority legal protection for children and young persons. Leads a work group about Scientology in Hamburg. Former Left wing of the SPD, left the SPD - born in 1950 and now suddenly NAZI criminal. LOL interesting.

[MichaelF]

http://www.youtube.com/v/-5sHSnQ7mzM&rel=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5sHSnQ7mzM&eurl=http://www.wwtdd.com/?start=150


http://www.youtube.com/v/ly-hTPNRlWU&rel=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-hTPNRlWU&eurl=http://www.wwtdd.com/?start=156

I swear, the only way this could be more sinister is if there were severed heads on pikes in the background...

It's all pretty terrifying and basically looks and sounds like a veiled threat against all the non-believers, topped off by Cruise saluting a portrait of L Ron Hubbard.
You honestly expect the speech to end and then the wall opens up to reveal an army of killer robots with glowing red eyes.

[muttbutt]

Damn Mike that's scary **** there.