"Supporting Human Rights and Democracy"

[weedman]

Although the time is probably a bit inappropriate, the U.S. Department of State has released the current Human Rights Record.

Thought it would be interesting for some of you:


http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/shrd/2003/

[Russian Texan]

The U.S. Record 2003-2004 highlights U.S. efforts to promote human rights and democracy in the 101 countries and entities with the worst human rights records, taking care to include those countries of concern for "extrajudicial killings, torture and other serious violations of human rights."

Now that's what you call an irony :lol:

[Smoothie104]

"Saudi Arabia is a monarchy without elected representative institutions or political parties. The Government’s human rights record remained poor; although there were improvements in a few areas, serious problems remained. Security forces continued to torture and abuse detainees and prisoners, arbitrarily arrest and detain persons, and detain them incommunicado. Mutawwa’in, religious police, continued to intimidate, abuse and detain citizens and foreigners with impunity. Most trials were closed, and defendants usually had no legal counsel. The Government infringed upon privacy rights and continued to restrict freedom of speech and the press, although there has been an increase in press freedom over a series of years. The Government restricted freedom of assembly, association, religion and movement. Violence against women and children, discrimination against ethnic and religious minorities and strict limitations on worker rights continued."




"The United States addresses democracy and human rights concerns in Saudi Arabia by urging the Government to increase political participation, transparency and accountability in government, rights for women, religious freedom and worker rights, raising concerns about human rights violations when they occur, urging the Government to promote greater religious tolerance and supporting on-going reform efforts."




hmmm....given the State Department's findings, you would expect Saudi Arabia to be on the list of "countries of particular concern" that the department says engage in "systematic, ongoing and egregious violations of religious freedom."

But no...... While China, North Korea, Iraq, and Iran made the list this year, Saudi Arabia was somehow absent.

[StarvingStudent47]

The U.S. Record 2003-2004 highlights U.S. efforts to promote human rights and democracy in the 101 countries and entities with the worst human rights records, taking care to include those countries of concern for "extrajudicial killings, torture and other serious violations of human rights."

Now that's what you call an irony :lol:

:roll:

In a world where women in many countries undergo forced genital mutilation, or can be stoned to death for accidentally showing their ankle while walking, I don't think that a half-dozen soldiers who teased and harassed prisoners (and are being court-martialed for doing so) strips the United States of its moral high ground.

Nice try, though.

[Russian Texan]

In a world where women in many countries undergo forced genital mutilation, or can be stoned to death for accidentally showing their ankle while walking,

Have you ever heard an expression: Out of my sight - out of my mind...

Those countries are not in the spotlight right now, but the US is.
Besides, "moral high ground" is a very relative thing...

[Abbyy]

Don't mix up national traditions with purposeful torture. :)

[Russian Texan]

Don't mix up national traditions with purposeful torture. :)
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl

That is a good one, no - it's a great one rofl rofl rofl rofl

[StarvingStudent47]

In a world where women in many countries undergo forced genital mutilation, or can be stoned to death for accidentally showing their ankle while walking,

Have you ever heard an expression: Out of my sight - out of my mind...

Those countries are not in the spotlight right now, but the US is.


Why on earth does that make those other human rights abuses any less aggregious, or the Abu Ghraib prison humiliations any worse than they are? I don't buy it. This report was highlighting serious abuses that people SHOULD remember, and I don't see why you take issue with that.

[Anastasius Focht]

The U.S. Record 2003-2004 highlights U.S. efforts to promote human rights and democracy in the 101 countries and entities with the worst human rights records, taking care to include those countries of concern for "extrajudicial killings, torture and other serious violations of human rights."

Now that's what you call an irony :lol:

:roll:

In a world where women in many countries undergo forced genital mutilation, or can be stoned to death for accidentally showing their ankle while walking, I don't think that a half-dozen soldiers who teased and harassed prisoners (and are being court-martialed for doing so) strips the United States of its moral high ground.

Nice try, though.

But according to Amnesty international at least 4 Iraqi Prisoners have been tortured to death and there were also many female Prisoners raped. I think it is vile to downplay what happened and say it was just a funny Human pyramid and stuff. And the US congress did see 1200 of the more hardcore pictures the public has not seen so far and probably will never see.

So please dont downplay this.

[Sergei]

The U.S. Record 2003-2004 highlights U.S. efforts to promote human rights and democracy in the 101 countries and entities with the worst human rights records, taking care to include those countries of concern for "extrajudicial killings, torture and other serious violations of human rights."

Now that's what you call an irony :lol:

:roll:

In a world where women in many countries undergo forced genital mutilation, or can be stoned to death for accidentally showing their ankle while walking, I don't think that a half-dozen soldiers who teased and harassed prisoners (and are being court-martialed for doing so) strips the United States of its moral high ground.

Nice try, though.

With the statement about women you just lost all credibility you had with me.
There are dozens of women in US who are treated much worse than women in Middle East, constant home beatings and abuse, treatment like cheap whores, and more.
Moral high ground? You lost it a long time ago.

[Argyll]

Is the Ukraine totally free from acts of abuse within it's system Sergei?

I know for sure my country Scotland is not white,and is far from perfect?



http://www.errc.org/rr_nr3-4_2002/snap52.shtml

http://www.errc.org/rr_nr2_2000/snap2.shtml

[Abbyy]

Is the Ukraine totally free from acts of abuse within it's system Sergei?

I know for sure my country Scotland is not white,and is far from perfect?



http://www.errc.org/rr_nr3-4_2002/snap52.shtml

Argyll,

I always want to know what happened if people such you (with balls and military experience) will declare Scotland independence from UK and begin defend it with weapons in hands?
What UK governoment will do against you? Does it will looks like Chechnya? Just curious.

[Argyll]

Is the Ukraine totally free from acts of abuse within it's system Sergei?

I know for sure my country Scotland is not white,and is far from perfect?



http://www.errc.org/rr_nr3-4_2002/snap52.shtml

Argyll,

I always want to know what happened if people such you (with balls and military experience) will declare Scotland independence from UK and begin defend it with weapons in hands?
What UK governoment will do against you? Does it will looks like Chechnya? Just curious.

Declaring Independance is not a declaration of war,but there is The Scottish Division,and the Scots DG's,so we'd have a Military Force,but should Scotland be invaded you bet your bottom dollar guys like me will defend it................however it just ain't going to happen

[Abbyy]

however it just ain't going to happen

You spent almost several centuries to fight for your independence and now just give up whole thing... Because you found that independence isn't as valuable as it sounds. Is it or not?

If yes, why your western buddies supporting all kinds of pro-independence activities on territories of former USSR and inflate value of all kinds of independence for peoples who live here? That policy caused incredible amount of armed conflicts here and didn't bring anything good here.

[soldierandy]

Is the Ukraine totally free from acts of abuse within it's system Sergei?

I know for sure my country Scotland is not white,and is far from perfect?



http://www.errc.org/rr_nr3-4_2002/snap52.shtml

Argyll,

I always want to know what happened if people such you (with balls and military experience) will declare Scotland independence from UK and begin defend it with weapons in hands?
What UK governoment will do against you? Does it will looks like Chechnya? Just curious.

Don't be ridiculous! You know anything about the UK?
By the way do you what 'United' refers to in the 'United Kingdom'?? Do you know what the Union Jack represents? And what does that have to do with the situation in prisons? I sure would not like to spend five minutes in any prison but I'd prefer Barlinnie to anything in a country with no accountability and there are more of them than there are countries with.

For sure the UK is not white but it is whiter than I would like to. ( we are talking of course white as in 'unblemishe' so we don't get confused :oops: ). Too many scumbags get treated with a kids glove over here.

[Tengu]

With the statement about women you just lost all credibility you had with me.
There are dozens of women in US who are treated much worse than women in Middle East, constant home beatings and abuse, treatment like cheap whores, and more.
Moral high ground? You lost it a long time ago.It happens in every nation, even yours. The difference is that it is not acceptable in our countries, in many african countries it is.

[soldierandy]

With the statement about women you just lost all credibility you had with me.
There are dozens of women in US who are treated much worse than women in Middle East, constant home beatings and abuse, treatment like cheap whores, and more.
Moral high ground? You lost it a long time ago.It happens in every nation, even yours. The difference is that it is not acceptable in our countries, in many african countries it is.

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

[Abbyy]

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

And usual bashing started! Move along boys. Nothing interesting here anymore.

[Sergei]

With the statement about women you just lost all credibility you had with me.
There are dozens of women in US who are treated much worse than women in Middle East, constant home beatings and abuse, treatment like cheap whores, and more.
Moral high ground? You lost it a long time ago.It happens in every nation, even yours. The difference is that it is not acceptable in our countries, in many african countries it is.

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

That's right, those things are present in Ukraine no doubt about that. That's why I'm not parading my horse with the moral high ground attitude around telling other countrymen how to do things and how to live their lives. Something some of the yankees here don't seem to grasp.
People are different, cultures are different, get used to that.

[Sergei]

With the statement about women you just lost all credibility you had with me.
There are dozens of women in US who are treated much worse than women in Middle East, constant home beatings and abuse, treatment like cheap whores, and more.
Moral high ground? You lost it a long time ago.It happens in every nation, even yours. The difference is that it is not acceptable in our countries, in many african countries it is.

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

How come you are not seeking "cheap whores" in UK. Don't plunder other countries resources. :bash: Thanks to your "democracy" we have so many cheap whores now. I remember times when women were earning enough not to go for the streetwalk job.

[FRO]

It's funny, back in my university days, I did a research paper on the Scots devolution movement during the late Victorian and early Edwardian era. The Irish of the time used violence. The Scots--for the most part and in no organized or deliberate fashion--did not. Southern Ireland gained its independence. It was always ironic, to me, that while the government is always harping about civilized discourse and working within the system as being more profitable than violence, the guys with the guns won that round.

That said, being Canadian and trying to come to terms with the Quebec situation, I believe federalism can work to address the practical problems associated with independence movements. Nothing, however, can address the cultural imperatives. It's a tough nut to crack.

And back on topic, I really don't think trying to downplay the injustices of one's nation or culture is useful. There is, of course, the natural inclination to defend what we love, but questioning and finding fault can actually help our nations improve. I look at it like I look at writing. I write a story/article/essay and I love it because I've invested so much time in it. The only way to improve it, though, is to seek out its faults. When I have someone critique it for me, I don't want to hear the good things. Those are nice and all, but the only way I can improve is if the person rips the work a new one and lays bare all the mistakes I have made. Once they come to light, I can address them, and that improves the work.

The same goes for nations. When people scrag on Canada, my first inclination is to rush to my beloved nation's defence. However, I need to take a breath and calmly--and objectively as possible--consider their points. Is there any validity to them? If so, how can these shortcomings be addressed? This is how a nation becomes great.

And let's not try to scapegoat and blame, rather, let's try to find solutions.

At least that's my opinion.

Take care all.

[soldierandy]

That's right, those things are present in Ukraine no doubt about that. That's why I'm not parading my horse with the moral high ground attitude around telling other countrymen how to do things and how to live their lives. Something some of the yankees here don't seem to grasp.
People are different, cultures are different, get used to that.

erm..you are parading your horse...no country is beyond critisism but we should be careful who are we comparing with. Utopia doesn't exist. When you are comparing Ukraine to the US/UK there is less difference than the nations that practice barbaric savage punishment - we know who they are. There is such a thing as basic human rights and in the West these are observed to as near as damnit. When we say cultures and people are different that doesn't mean that any act of barbarism is acceptable put it down to 'culture'. Your anti-americanism is blinding you to the acts of our enemies which are infinitely worse. Not only they are beyond reproach by themselves but they are actively encouraged. And again victims are not at fault any more than the perpetrators ever however we like to brand things. The rape victim is always the rape victim even if she had dressed provocatively. The rapist is always the rapist never mind mitigating circumstances.

By the way, what is your opinion of 9/11? Did the US bring it on themselves? did they deserve it? What about the other terrorist acts? What about Saddam? Should he had stayed in power, Sergei? Is it only oil the US went in Iraq for?

By the way I am not looking for cheap whores in the UK as there are plenty of pretty girls that give it up easier. Cheap whores are still expensive and they look like crocodiles here ;)

[ibstolidude]

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

And usual bashing started! Move along boys. Nothing interesting here anymore.
:roll:
ueah it is only bashing when it is said against you - but you get free reign under the guise of an alternative opinion?

riiiiight

[Abbyy]

even yours? In the Ukraine alcoholism and poverty is rife! I have been there mate and it was in the good part. And 'cheap whores' plenty of that!!

And usual bashing started! Move along boys. Nothing interesting here anymore.
:roll:
ueah it is only bashing when it is said against you - but you get free reign under the guise of an alternative opinion?

riiiiight

I don't care have it alternative opinion or not. If you note i didn't blame anyone about such posts. I just note that any valuable discussion here ended.

[weedman]

When I first read this, I had really to laugh. :roll:

[Sergei]

More like pot calling the kettle black.

[StarvingStudent47]

Sergei:

So when a woman is forced to wear a burqa under threat of death in some third-world s---hole, you don't mind because "that's the culture there"? When she is raped, and she goes to the authorities, and they order her stoned to death for adultery, are you saying you don't midn because "that's the culture over there"?

Domestic abuse does exist in the USA, but it's ILLEGAL and it's being fought by both the government and private sectors of society. There is no parallel between that and either genital mutilation in Africa or other abuses in certain Muslim countries.

Unlike you, I'm unwilling to accept atrocity as part of a local culture. It's never part of the VICTIM'S culture, only the perpetrator's. You know what I'm saying?

[Sergei]

Sergei:

So when a woman is forced to wear a burqa under threat of death in some third-world s---hole, you don't mind because "that's the culture there"? When she is raped, and she goes to the authorities, and they order her stoned to death for adultery, are you saying you don't midn because "that's the culture over there"?


For the freaking thousandth of time I repeat that Iraq was a secular society and you wouldn't meet women in burqas on the streets. Raping? Looks like american MP's know a great more deal about it then me and you. :(



Domestic abuse does exist in the USA, but it's ILLEGAL and it's being fought by both the government and private sectors of society. There is no parallel between that and either genital mutilation in Africa or other abuses in certain Muslim countries.


Domestic abuse exists in every country. So isn't it a bit arrogant to point fingers at others, especially on the people of other religion and say "we are better than you cause you make women wear burqas while we treat women as walking ******s"?
You sometimes should visit off-topic section to know what I'm talking about. I haven't seen so many ***-starved idiots bunched up together in one single forum. :roll:

[UkrainianAmerican]

Sergei,
How could you POSSIBLY know how women are being treated here?
Perhaps hollywood isnt the best source of info? :roll:
:cantbeli:

[Abbyy]

Sergei,
How could you POSSIBLY know how women are being treated here?
Perhaps hollywood isnt the best source of info? :roll:
:cantbeli:

For the last 14 years until Spring 2003 there was much more Russians than Americans in Iraq ;) But you're he's just guessing.

[The Walrus]

Though the abuses in Iraq are very serious indeed, and I personally believe blaming it on a few 'bad apples' raises more questions than it answers, however, one cannot compare the US to countries like Zimbabwe and many, many other countries which adopt a policy of torture and human rights abuse.
With the US there is a process going on, and chances are the full picture will emerge eventually and the situation will be corrected immedietaly. If the current Iranian government does so, I will eat my hat.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Sergei,
How could you POSSIBLY know how women are being treated here?
Perhaps hollywood isnt the best source of info? :roll:
:cantbeli:

For the last 14 years until Spring 2003 there was much more Russians than Americans in Iraq ;) But you're he's just guessing.
I was Taliing about treatment of Women inside the US.

[soldierandy]

What is all this BS about how women are 'treated' in the US?? All people in the US have equal rights under the law. Some people are a**holes and we can't help that. If they beat their wifes up they go to jail. Period.
If a student treats women like 'walking ******s' that is his problem. If women want to sleep with him it is their choice. It is an individual thing. That is why we say we have freedom in the West.
Just like we can't help Sergei being a total idiot.

[StarvingStudent47]

What is all this BS about how women are 'treated' in the US?? All people in the US have equal rights under the law. Some people are a**holes and we can't help that. If they beat their wifes up they go to jail. Period.
If a student treats women like 'walking ******s' that is his problem. If women want to sleep with him it is their choice. It is an individual thing. That is why we say we have freedom in the West.
Just like we can't help Sergei being a total idiot.

Like I've been trying to say. In the USA, some women have to endure cat-calling and lower wages than their male counterparts. In many other parts of the world, women are forced to have their clitoris cut off with an unsterilized piece of broken glass. Yes, we have more work to do in the USA before we have true equality. But to draw any comparison between the two is just absurd.

Yes, I read Maxim from time to time. But at least I don't burn my little sister to death for "shaming the family" by holding some boy's hand. Go figure.

[Sergei]

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been involved in this discussion in the first place.