Israelis Fire Into Crowd of Marchers

[Anastasius Focht]

Israelis Fire Into Crowd of Marchers

RAFAH, Gaza Strip — Israeli forces fired on a large crowd of Palestinians demonstrating against an Israeli invasion of a neighboring refugee camp, killing at least five people, including two children, and wounding 35 others, Palestinian medical workers said.

Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machine guns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.

An estimated 3,000 people were participating in the demonstration against the Israeli invasion of the nearby Tel Sultan (search) neighborhood in Rafah refugee camp (search).

The army had no immediate comment.

The strike came as Israeli troops stormed homes in this Palestinian refugee camp on Wednesday in an ongoing search for militants and illegal weapons, confining tens of thousands of residents to houses without electricity or water.

The invasion, launched Tuesday, knocked out power in the refugee camp, home to an estimated 90,000 people, local Palestinian officials said. By Wednesday, they said, water service had been halted as well.

Twenty Palestinians — the highest single-day death toll in more than two years — were killed on the first day of the army's "Operation Rainbow" offensive. Among the dead were a 13-year-old boy and his 16-year-old sister.

International condemnation mounted against the operation, and the United States said it was asking Israel for "clarification." The United Nations and European Union demanded an end to the incursion, which Israeli security officials said would last at least a week.

The massive invasion — the largest in the Gaza Strip in years — came less than a week after Palestinian militants killed 13 soldiers — seven in the Rafah area.

Israel said it was targeting armed militants, but Palestinians said many of Tuesday's casualties were civilians.

Palestinians said the teenage brother and sister were killed by an Israeli sniper as they gathered laundry from their rooftop.

But the military said an initial investigation found no Israeli soldiers had fired in that area at the time of the shootings. The military said the two had apparently been killed by a Palestinian bomb aimed at troops.

Early Wednesday, the army said it demolished the home of Ibrahim Ahmed, an Islamic Jihad (search) militant it said was responsible for a shooting attack earlier this month that killed a pregnant Israeli woman and her four daughters near a Gaza settlement. Palestinian witnesses said at least three homes were demolished overnight.

Ali Bayomi, a 55-year-old resident of Rafah, said soldiers disguised as Hamas (search) militants had arrested two of his cousins and were using the men as human shields as they conducted searches of homes. The army did not comment.

Salwa Abu Jazar, a 33-year-old mother of four, said the noise from combat helicopters and shooting kept her family up much of the night.

"There is no water, no electricity, and it is very hard to move inside the house using candles because snipers in the building next door will shoot you," Abu Jazar said.

The army said it had shot and hit two armed men overnight in Rafah. Palestinian residents said one man had been hit in the head and stomach, the other in the leg. They said the intense fighting was making it hard for ambulances to evacuate the dead and wounded.

The facades of Rafah buildings were riddled with holes from Israeli machine guns. Residents said the rocket and gun fire had confined them to the innermost rooms of their homes.

Saleem Katib, 25, said his ailing, elderly father went to morning prayers early Tuesday and still had not returned. Trapped by the fighting and the military curfew, the man was holed up near the mosque with other worshippers, his son said.

"How can you believe that a man can't reach his home when he is only 20 meters away?" Katib said.

In all, 19 Palestinians were killed Tuesday by Israeli fire — 10 in two separate missile strikes and nine by machine gun fire, said Dr. Moawiya Hassanain, a senior official for the Palestinian Health Ministry. A 20th man was killed while handling explosives.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat denounced the incursion as a "planned massacre."

"What is happening in Rafah is an operation to destroy and to transfer the local Palestinian population, and this must not be accepted, not by the Palestinians, nor the Arabs, nor by the international community," an angry Arafat told reporters at his West Bank compound.

Israel's Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected a petition by 46 Rafah residents against demolition of their homes, giving the army the right to tear down buildings that could be used for attacking troops.

Troops demolished four houses Tuesday, witnesses said. The Israeli army chief, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, said homes would be destroyed only if gunmen used them as firing positions or to cover up tunnels.

"Our plan is not to demolish houses," he said, backing away from a plan to knock down rows of houses, hundreds in all, to widen the border buffer zone — apparently giving in to mounting diplomatic pressure.

Paul Patin, a spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv, said the United States had asked Israel for "clarification" regarding the Rafah operations.

President Bush described the violence as "troubling" but said Israel had the right to defend itself from terrorism.

Mohammed Dahlan, a former chief of Palestinian security in Gaza who is considered to have pro-Western views, said the United States had the power to stop the incursion — but would not in an election year.

"I don't expect any serious move by the Americans to put an end to the ongoing aggression, because if the Americans want to end it, they can stop it by one statement, but they don't want to," Dahlan told a radio station in Gaza.

Also Wednesday, Israeli forces entered a refugee camp next to the West Bank town of Jenin, and killed a Palestinian militant who was a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades (search), a group linked to Arafat's Fatah movement.

Also, an Al Aqsa militant was killed in an exchange of fire with Israeli soldiers in the West Bank city of Nablus early Wednesday.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120331,00.html

[UkrainianAmerican]

Tsk tsk tsk, I bet those Zionazis fired for absolutely no reason.
[/sarcasm]

[ShotOver]

What are the kids doing in a demonstration crowd?
:roll:

[big80a2]

RIP to the death.

Another example of human shields.

sorce: Jpost


May. 19, 2004 9:03 | Updated May. 19, 2004 14:58
Helicopter and tanks kill 9 demonstrators in Rafah
By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH


Helicopters and tanks shot into a crowd of demonstrators in Tel Sultan killing at least nine people, including two children, and wounding 35 others, Palestinian medical workers said, bringing the toll of Palestinians killed to 31 since the launching of Operation Rainbow on Tuesday.




Associated Press reports Israeli tanks and helicopters were in the area at the time. Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks opened fire with shells and machineguns and a helicopter fired four missiles. Wounded were evacuated by ambulance, private cars and donkey carts to the nearby hospital.

The IDF reports that IAF helicopters fired a number of missiles towards hundreds of Palestinian demonstrators who had left Rafah and were heading for Tel Sultan where soldiers are deployed.

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.

Meanwhile, residents of the besieged Tel Sultan neighborhood began surrendering Wednesday after troops called on armed men to give themselves up. As a result, Palestinians gathered in the town center, carrying white flags.

An army spokeswoman said Palestinian snipers inside houses fired on the surrendering crowds, wounding at least two people. Palestinians said Israeli troops fired on two surrendering teenagers, killing one of them, but IDF sources claim soldiers were firing at the snipers and identified hitting one.

Earlier, IDF shot and killed five Palestinians in the Tel Sultan neighborhood of Rafah on Wednesday.

Two Palestinians were shot while attempting to place a bomb near IDF forces, and three additional armed Palestinians were shot in two separate incidents.

Several dozens of Palestinians were also wounded in Operation Rainbow, as Israeli forces in Rafah conduct house-to-house searches, seeking out fugitives as well as tunnels used to smuggle weapons from Egypt into the Gaza Strip.

IDF troops operating in Tel Sultan demolished overnight Tuesday the home of Ibrahim Ahmed, the Islamic Jihad terrorist who shot and murdered Tali Hatuel and her four daughters in the Kissufim crossing on May 2nd, in a terrorist attack that shocked the country.

Infantry, armored, and engineering units operated in the neighborhood, while more troops were deployed along the Philadelphi Route to the southwest of the city, along the border with Egypt.

Shots were fired at an IDF post located near the border with Egypt and an anti-tank rocket was fired at a civilian convoy entering the isolated settlement of Netzarim, in the center of the Gaza Strip.

No injuries were reported in both incidents.

Mofaz: No time limit on operation; MKs object to IDF action

Just hours after Operation Rainbow got under way, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said there is no time limit on the army's operation in Rafah.

"The aim of the operation is to enable us to deal effectively against weapon smuggling. Even now, Palestinian terrorists are making supreme efforts to smuggle weapons into the Gaza Strip that will enhance the threat and change the strategic balance," he said. "The operation is not limited in time and will depend on assessments and goals attained in the coming days."

MK Avraham Burg (Labor) said that military means could not solve the conflict with the Palestinians. "We should not drown Gaza in blood; if we do so, our sons will also be drowned in blood," Burg told Channel 10 news. He added that the army is operating with no clear guidance from the government, which does not have a clear plan of action.

MK Yossi Sarid (Meretz) said that the IDF operation in Rafah is illegitimate since hundreds of people who are in no way involved in terrorism would get wounded or even killed during the operation.

[Anastasius Focht]

Another example of human shields.

So since what Time a crowd of Marching People needs human shields? Do you suggest demonstrators are a legitimate Target for Attack Helicopters???


What are the kids doing in a demonstration crowd?


Children are always in a demonstration crowd, in every country. Parents carry them on their shoulders or leading them on their Hands. Or was your question meant as a Joke?

:roll:

[ShotOver]

Disgusting how the palestinians use their children in crowds they know will get shot at, to give the IDF a bad name.
:roll:
Not nice.

[S'13]

So since what Time a crowd of Marching People needs human shields? Do you suggest demonstrators are a legitimate Target for Attack Helicopters???

The armed combatants in the crowd were the targets and the fact that they were marching in the direction of IDF ground forces didn't help them...



Children are always in a demonstration crowd, in every country. Parents carry them on their shoulders or leading them on their Hands. Or was your question meant as a Joke?

Yes children are always marching together with armed terrorists... :cantbeli:

[Anastasius Focht]

Disgusting how the palestinians use their children in crowds they know will get shot at, to give the IDF a bad name.
:roll:
Not nice.

So your point is that it is legally to fire into a crowd of marching protesters with an attack Helicopter???

[S'13]

So your point is that it is legally to fire into a crowd of marching protesters with an attack Helicopter???

If there are armed terrorists among the so called "protesters" and they are moving in the direction of your forces... Yes.

[Javehn]

Here is the peacefull demonstration :

http://www.israeli-truth.com/article458/708mega.jpg

Here is your demonstration in details (check the background) :
http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/javehn/demons.jpg



And here is what happends to those who don't want armed men to take part of it :
Graphic : http://www.israeli-truth.com/article458/020316102808.mdzbx5931b.jpg

Convinced ?

[Anastasius Focht]

So since what Time a crowd of Marching People needs human shields? Do you suggest demonstrators are a legitimate Target for Attack Helicopters???

The armed combatants in the crowd were the targets and the fact that they were marching in the direction of IDF ground forces didn't help them...



Children are always in a demonstration crowd, in every country. Parents carry them on their shoulders or leading them on their Hands. Or was your question meant as a Joke?

Yes children are always marching together with armed terrorists... :cantbeli:

I dont think any video of the Targeting system of that Heli will appear to prove your statement. This is just one point of view what happened, and CNN,Sky, FOX or any other independent News agencies are not stating there were any weapons in the crowd. And they were moving nowhere.

Have you any source? Any Pictures? Did they wear T-Shirts with "Terrorist" printed on them to identify? I cant identify an armed man in a crowd while standing 20 Meters away...

They dont look very armed:

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,355535,00.jpg

http://www.welt.de/media/pic/000/145/14580v1.jpg

[Javehn]

Here goes my pictures for nothing :roll:

[Anastasius Focht]

Here goes my pictures for nothing :roll:

YOU were showing some old and unrelated pics, I show Pics that actually show that certain event.

I think its stupid to search for old pics showing nothing, agree? :cantbeli:

[Javehn]

The second pic is old and unrelated ?

[Anastasius Focht]

The second pic is old and unrelated ?

Does it show what happened today? .....no!

What do you want to say? Do you want to end this by showing old Pics of armed among protestors or children next to armed palestinians??

[Javehn]

What do you want to say? Do you want to end this by showing old Pics of armed among protestors or children next to armed palestinians??

Where is your proof that there were no combatants amongst the crowd ?The burdon of proof is upon you . Show me the picture of demonstration before the helicopter attack .
I showed you the picture what is done to people who refuse to let armed people inside the marches . It is pretty rellevant here , no ?


It would be easy if we drop the pictures , and you will say directly on what you are accusing IDF .

[/McH\]

Anastasius Focht why do you think this demonstration is any different from other Palastinian Demonstrations??

[Anastasius Focht]

What do you want to say? Do you want to end this by showing old Pics of armed among protestors or children next to armed palestinians??

Where is your proof that there were no combatants amongst the crowd ?The burdon of proof is upon you . Show me the picture of demonstration before the helicopter attack .

This is what *******, an absolutely credible news agency says:


RAFAH, Gaza Strip (*******) - Israeli forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing eight Palestinians and raising the death toll in Israel's heaviest raid in the Gaza Strip in years to 31.

Some witnesses reported seeing helicopter gunships launching missiles while others said tanks fired shells into a peaceful crowd of thousands, sending people fleeing in panic, some dragging bloodied comrades with them.

"I saw bodies dismembered, blood everywhere," one witness said as smoke rose from the scene.



http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5192002

All reported News say I'm right and you are questioning my thesis, you have to disprove me and not vice versa.

Nice try....:lol:

And you still didnt bring up anything that supports your version.

[/McH\]

RAFAH, Gaza Strip (*******) - Israeli forces opened fire on a protest march in a besieged Gaza refugee camp on Wednesday, killing eight Palestinians and raising the death toll in Israel's heaviest raid in the Gaza Strip in years to 31.

Some witnesses reported seeing helicopter gunships launching missiles while others said tanks fired shells into a peaceful crowd of thousands, sending people fleeing in panic, some dragging bloodied comrades with them.

"I saw bodies dismembered, blood everywhere," one witness said as smoke rose from the scene.


Did you noticed that "Some Witnesses" reported?? very reliable...

[AirZone]

Boringggggggggggggggg.... go to whine in a Hamas forum not in here, give more proofs and not just pics to show us how evil is the zionist army :roll: you can do the same with every other armed force in the world.

[ShotOver]

*Blows his whistle*
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET! ARGYLL!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
AAAAAARGYLL!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET! TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
HEEEELP!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!

[big80a2]

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.


here is your proof!!

[AirZone]

Heh, its funny... while in grozny nothing is left no one said a word when the russians just blowed the **** outta it, and in Gaza when you take out 4 and a half houses because of tunnels and terrorists that are shooting at Israeli soldiers the world (more like the arb and the hyprocite *cough* leftish news *cough*) says its a massacre...

****ing disgusting


and i want to see what the coallition will do when they will see thouands of iraqi with some armed inside of them willl do... sure they will just sit and wait for them

moron

[big80a2]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040519/capt.sge.rry23.190504133143.photo01.default

check there is an armed man there!
AK47 on his back

[Javehn]

Well , as far as i understand , there were only one missile fired (there is a recording from near by unmanned aircraft that recorded it) in open space near the crowd with safety distance , unlike "at list 4 missile inside the crowd" as eye witness said . Problem that nearby there were IED charges , and they exploded when the missile hit the ground , causing the **** storm to arrise . The helicopter have cameras , unlike eye witness , here is your little propaganda problem .... ;)

[Anastasius Focht]

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.


here is your proof!!

There isnt even a Link where this Stuff comes from. That is your Proof? :cantbeli:

And even if there were Weapons, killing 2 small children to get a 17 year old ****nut waving with an AK can be described with just one Word:

TERRORISM

[AirZone]

Well , as far as i understand , there were only one missile fired (there is a recording from near by unmanned aircraft that recorded it) in open space near the crowd with safety distance , unlike "at list 4 missile inside the crowd" as eye witness said . Problem that nearby there were IED charges , and they exploded when the missile hit the ground , causing the **** storm to arrise . The helicopter have cameras , unlike eye witness , here is your little propaganda problem .... ;)

hehehe... javehn 1 anastasius 0

[citizen-k]

It's not like the helicopter searched for civilians to bomb - it was a mistake, and in battle mistakes happen.

There is war in that area for the past 3 days - what the hell were they doing outside?

Soldiors (or helicopters) are not looking for civilians to kill - they were well notified not to leave their homes.

I wonder what will be your reaction the next time a Palestiniana will SEARCH and KILL civilians. (such as 4 little girls and their mother who were shot from close range last week)

[Javehn]

I have a question to you , Anastasia . Have you heard that UNWRA cars were used by Palestinian fighters to move Israeli soldiers body part from place to place in last bombing of APC in Rafah ? This is photographed and sealed . Where were you then ?
UN helping terrorists , what a scandal , oh my oh my oh my !!!! Shurely Anastasia Fuuckt should have outrage on this !! Tell me something , are you Truthsayer brother by any chance ?

[Anastasius Focht]

The death toll rised to 23 and 60 wounded.


The Web site of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz said 23 marchers, most of them schoolchildren, had been killed. It said 60 people, including women and children, had been wounded.

Capt. Sharon Feingold, spokeswoman for the Israeli military, told ******* an investigation had already begun.


So what now?

Still cant see Weapons and this Photo was taken SECONDS after the attack:

http://www.faz.net/imagecache/{C12F05EA-CADF-4F56-B602-AC8BF2E7054B}picture.jpeg

[Javehn]

Anastasia , do you make any read of what i wrote ?

Here is a good forum for you , i suggest you visit there , you will be more welcome :

http://www.palestinianforum.net/forum/showthread.php?s=224a16874e9b96f3a472d7949311165f&threadid=17322&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

[citizen-k]

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.


here is your proof!!

There isnt even a Link where this Stuff comes from. That is your Proof? :cantbeli:

And even if there were Weapons, killing 2 small children to get a 17 year old f*** waving with an AK can be described with just one Word:

TERRORISM

Right...

And approaching a car in order to shoot 4 little girls and their pregnant mother is a fight for freedom :cantbeli:

Do us all a favor and take you lame ass, terror supporting point of views else where...

[Anastasius Focht]

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.


here is your proof!!

There isnt even a Link where this Stuff comes from. That is your Proof? :cantbeli:

And even if there were Weapons, killing 2 small children to get a 17 year old f*** waving with an AK can be described with just one Word:

TERRORISM

Right...

And approaching a car in order to shoot 4 little girls and their pregnant mother is a fight for freedom :cantbeli:

Do us all a favor and take you lame ass, terror supporting point of views else where...

I never defended barbaric palestinian actions, but Israel is nothing better than that...... thats the Point.

And what about that one:


The Web site of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz said 23 marchers, most of them schoolchildren, had been killed. It said 60 people, including women and children, had been wounded.

Capt. Sharon Feingold, spokeswoman for the Israeli military, told ******* an investigation had already begun.

[citizen-k]

They said that among the crowd were Palestinians armed with light weapons and grenade launchers. The officials said that the fact that they were heading towards Tel Sultan endangered the troops stationed there.


here is your proof!!

There isnt even a Link where this Stuff comes from. That is your Proof? :cantbeli:

And even if there were Weapons, killing 2 small children to get a 17 year old f*** waving with an AK can be described with just one Word:

TERRORISM

Right...

And approaching a car in order to shoot 4 little girls and their pregnant mother is a fight for freedom :cantbeli:

Do us all a favor and take you lame ass, terror supporting point of views else where...

I never defended barbaric palestinian actions, but Israel is nothing better than that...... thats the Point.

Prepare to apologize - it apears to be that the missile wasn't even shot to their direction and that the explosion occur due to explosives hidden (near school kids) by the Palestinians.

No link for now, since it's not from the media - we'll just wait and see.

You do admit that killing someone by mistake in battle is worse then shooting a 2 year old girl in the head on purpose (so you said)

YOU ARE A SICK PERSON!!!

[S'13]

An initial examination revealed that an IDF gunship identified armed Palestinians in the march approaching the Tel Sultan neighborhood. At some point, the gunship fired one missile towards an open space. Meanwhile, tanks fired shells at open areas to deter the armed activists, some of which were reportedly carrying RPG rocket launchers.

A military source told Maariv Online that a tank fired towards an abandoned structure and speculated that this could have activated explosive devices hidden in the area by Palestinians.

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=7581

[Javehn]

Ok , i see you intentionally trying to ignore me . Did you read what i wrote ?
IED , you know what is that ? Improvised Explosive device , allright ? You know who make them , and plant them ? Palestinians .

Did you read that one of those went up on the crowd , and not helicopter strike ? Right now Army is investigating it , and i am pretty much shure you are not amongst those who will get the shortage of the investigation .

Let me help you . Here is a good forum for you , use it :
http://www.palestinianforum.net/forum/showthread.php?s=224a16874e9b96f3a472d7949311165f&threadid=17322&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

"Mustafa . This is a rock , or this is a stone ??? "
http://www.eyelash.ps/upload/pic/594831.jpg

[Anastasius Focht]

So lets lock that Topic at this Point and see what comes out?

[Javehn]

Allready retreating ? Common , even Truthsayer did better job then you .
Don't run , Forest , stay here for a while .

Your first mistake was to relay on newspaper . AP or ******* don't have inside reporters , they have local "reporters " that are passing the news from war zone . They can tell that Messiah came down from the sky . This is your first mistake .
2)When you see word "eye witness" followed by "Arab/ Palestinian" in the same sentence , the credability is droping down very fast . It's simmilar to reports of Egypt radio that Egypt troops kicking the remaining Jews Army into the sea , while Israeli troops washed their legs in Suez canal . You didn't knew that , and that is your second mistake .

Yep .

[citizen-k]

So lets lock that Topic at this Point and see what comes out?

No, we should leave it open - so in case you are wrong, we would like you to post an apology, then Hood should make it sticky for a while.

[Bootneck]

Those That Shall Not Be Named would be very disappointed that their replacement is caving so easily. I guess they forgot to tell you that in order for the Big Lie to work you have to keep repeating it over and over.



So lets lock that Topic at this Point and see what comes out?

[Anastasius Focht]

So you dont like facts instead of speculation?

And an IDF investigation is not what I understand about independent and objective when it is for something an IDF Soldier ****ed up.

They usually do good work, when covering something up. ;)

[Javehn]

So you dont like facts instead of speculation?

Wrong move , boy !! You are the one speculating here , and bringing pictures of kids to proove the point . When there is a video tape from helicopter + unmanned aircraft that is here and ready to kick your sorry looser ass down to the ground . You bring Newspapers , and then you are the one talking about speculation ?

You just lost , boy . Fall down and go away to Hamas website . Get your hipocrite skinny ass out of here . You just called this IDF pilot a killer , and if i was him , i would track you down on this plannet , and rechange your fase to a puzzle mode . Never ever call someone killer in your life unless you really mean it , and have good proof of it . No piss off boy .

[citizen-k]

So you dont like facts instead of speculation?

And an IDF investigation is not what I understand about independent and objective when it is for something an IDF Soldier f*** up.

They usually do good work, when covering something up. ;)

I guess we will all see the films taken by the helicopter & MRPV which were in the region.

I guess you will then claim that the films were altered by the Mossad & the elders of zion :cantbeli:

It's known for a fact at this point that there were armed man near the demonstration which fired towards IDF soldiors/helicopter.

[Anastasius Focht]

So you dont like facts instead of speculation?

Wrong move , boy !! You are the one speculating here , and bringing pictures of kids to proove the point . When there is a video tape from helicopter that is here and ready to kick your sorry looser ass down to the ground . You bring Newspapers , and then you are the one talking about speculation ?

You just lost , boy . Fall down and go away to Hamas website .

So where is the Video? :lol:

I lost nothing and just because some israeli rightwing newspages (And no international Media) is posting a fairy tale about IEDs and other stuff you think you have won? :cantbeli:

[maw]

sop for breaking up a demonstration is firing tear gas, rubber bullets or water cannons. if there are armed individuals in the crowd deploy snipers.

firing missle/missles into a crowd gets isreal no points. it only generates casualties.

but that's the whole point.

anastasius i want to give you some insight and i mean this with complete respect.

i think you're not seeing the isreali mindset which is one of a steel fist. isreal unlike the us or europe is unafraid to generate civilian casualties. to do so would show weakness and play into arafat's hands. it means that when you're at war there is no moral supremacy. i'll go as far to say that moral supremacy during war is a fallacy that will lose you the game (hearts and minds is not a moral consideration, it's a strategy). i've seen the result of war and i can tell you, it's just blood and guts. nothing more. there's no moral merit badge for the loser.

in vietnam or iraq the us could afford to take the moral high road because the stakes were lower. isreal doesn't have a large continent in the middle of the pacific/atlantic to retreat to. the stakes are much higher, the chips are out hence the gloves are off. it's unproductive to judge isreal's actions against the hague or genva conventions or even some of the tenets laid down in the treaty of versailles because the people that the isreali's are facing hold no value in those documents.

i'm not saying it's right or wrong. i'm just trying to show you what i think is the isreali forum members perspective. before you dismiss my post i'd like to mention that there are several aspects of isreali policy that make my blood boil.

to our isreali forumites, forgive me for trying to speak for you. sometimes it is easier to explain things when they are broken down into their simplest form. and if if i have incorrectly spoken for you i apologize in advance.

[Javehn]

Hey , Felicia fuuck boy , here is something for you :
http://www.faz.net/imagecache/%7BC12F05EA-CADF-4F56-B602-AC8BF2E7054B%7Dpicture.jpeg
Missile don't explode like that . It goes above the ground , and the blasting wave should be more powerfull and sideways . This one looks like something exploding on the ground .

[citizen-k]

sop for breaking up a demonstration is firing tear gas, rubber bullets or water cannons. if there are armed individuals in the crowd deploy snipers.


All very nice (and the rest of the post is well said) BUT:

This "demonstation" didn't occur in a peaceful town, in a peacful day - don't be mistaken.

The whole area is in WAR WAR for the past 3 days - civilians KNOW there are tanks & helicompters shooting outside and they were told to stay home.

They chose to get outside & shield armed man during battle - their death is nothing but a mistake.

The missile/shell if ever shot in their direction WAS NOT AIMED at them, it wasn't a part of "breaking up the demonstration" - it was a MISTAKE.

Remember the wedding at Afghanistan? I doubt it Americans got anything against Afghan weddings - but they were in war, and made a mistake.

(only they blew up a wedding in the middle of the desert while the IDF is fighting in a built-up area, filled with explosive charges and snipers)

[Javehn]

טוב ,שמע , אם רגע ורגע זה נהיה ברור שאכלנו זיין והייתה טעות . כנראה איזה טנק שיחרר פגז ופגע בקה"ל , יכול להיות , אין לזה הסבר הגיוני ,, דובר צה"ל אין לו מושג מה להגיד , כנראה שכן עשינו את זה .
דובר צה"ל הזה אין לו מושג , לא יודע אי לכסות את התחת פה .

[Universal]

Disgusting how the palestinians use their children in crowds they know will get shot at, to give the IDF a bad name.
:roll:
Not nice.

Ur a f***in idiot if you believe what you just said. You're saying palestanians purposely take their children to a demonstraion so they could get shot?!? ur an idiot, u need to get your head out of your ass and open up your mind.

[citizen-k]

Disgusting how the palestinians use their children in crowds they know will get shot at, to give the IDF a bad name.
:roll:
Not nice.

Ur a f***in idiot if you believe what you just said. You're saying palestanians purposely take their children to a demonstraion so they could get shot?!? ur an idiot, u need to get your head out of your ass and open up your mind.

They never do that.

Their kids are at school all day rofl

Then who sent the 14 year old with an explosive charge? Little green man from Mars?

Who shot Muhamad-A-dora if not Palestinian snipers?

[ExtraT]

the stakes are much higher, the chips are out hence the gloves are off.


The stakes are, indeed, very high - but the gloves are, unfortunetly, very much on. If we were to really take the gloves off we would have won a long time ago. Unfortunetly, Israel has fight on 2 fronts: external enemy, and an internal fifth column. An unfortunate side-effect of democracy. :(


... there are several aspects of isreali policy that make my blood boil.


Which ones, if I might ask?

[Tengu]

Ur a f***in idiot if you believe what you just said. You're saying palestanians purposely take their children to a demonstraion so they could get shot?!? ur an idiot, u need to get your head out of your ass and open up your mind.Childisch namecalling is the way to go. So is throwing rocks at armed soldiers, teaching kids how to hate and use weapons in camps, letting kids walk with armed terrorists out in the open :roll: . There is a reason why they do that and that reason is ppl like you.

[ExtraT]

You're saying palestanians purposely take their children to a demonstraion so they could get shot?!? ur an idiot, u need to get your head out of your ass and open up your mind.

Tell me, have you ben living in a bottle or something? Haven't you seen all these pictures of armed terrorists hiding among children? Did your hypocrisy cause permanent blindness??

[EvanL]

The whole Israel/Palestine situation is so touchy. i dont think anybody who isnt experiencing it first hand should be commenting. If you dont live in pain, how are you supposed to feel the pain?
Your view can become clouded, not only for pro-palestinian people, but the pro israeli people as well.
Nobody knows whose right or wrong in these situations, but we do know taht Israel isnt a bunch of murderous bloodthirsty zionists. They are ppl trying to protect their land and people. The Palestinians have the same thing goign for them, but unfortunately they have been tainted by terrorist groups liek Hamas, and Islamic Jihad.
There hasnt been peace in the middle-east since the 40's. And with attitudes like alot of the ones i see here, i dont see how it could be possible.
So whatever side of this argument your on. Let it go. It is for the most part not your problem, unless your living it. Like our Israeli members sadly enough have to put up with every day of their lives.
But for us in the West to sit back and take sides in this argument doesnt help for the efforts put forth to stop these deaths from happening on either side.
Thank you all, and just some thoughts

[maw]

you may ask but unfortunately my response has to be not here. not now.


... there are several aspects of isreali policy that make my blood boil.


Which ones, if I might ask?[/quote]

[Argyll]

What was the intention of the original topic?

A) To provide an interesting topic of conversation about the rights and wrongs of Children in demo's
B)An attempt to start a ****storm with the Israeli's here?

29 posts the majority of them in threads against US Politics/ abuse cases and Israeli actions..........a familiar pattern or coincidence?

Hello HELEX ;)

[Universal]

You can't draw conclusions from pictures. In these countries, If the children find something they're amazed by, like guns, marching army, burning cars or anything like that, they're gonna chase it down the streets and surround it, especialy when there's cameras around. The armed men that you see getting all the attention are showing off, they're not gonna kneel down to the kid next to them and say "Go home little one, its dangerous here." :roll: They simply don't care, as long as their face is painted, they're carrying a rifle and all eyes are on them, they're happy.

What you guys are saying, is that these armed men gather all the children they can find, order them to march down the streets so they could hide behind them and use them as shields. If that doesn't sound crasy to you, then you're the one who needs a head check.

[Javehn]

What you guys are saying, is that these armed men gather all the children they can find, order them to march down the streets so they could hide behind them and use them as shields. If that doesn't sound crasy to you, then you're the one who needs a head check.

Yep , indeed . That's what they talled . Head check ? You have absolutly no idea of the menthality in the region . Why you insist that everybody share the same value ? When were you last time in Palestinian school to see what they are teaching there ?

How about a big brother with a gun saying to his little brother "keep outside and shield me " . That's one example of what happened, when the older brother was couht and intorragated .

[Universal]

See, with what you said, we'll get into the media issue, and how they lie to make you believe what they want, and thats a long road of arguing and discussions, and I don't feel like embarking on it because I've travelled down that road for a long time.

In the end, the point is... this is WAR. In war, nobody is right, nobody is wrong. The people I have trouble with are the ones that beleive the US/Israel are 100% right in everything the say and do, and vice versa with the palestinians/arabs. WAR is a big misunderstanding, all sides make mistakes, all sides suffer.

[Javehn]

No one thinks that we are right 100 percent .But the problem is when people starting to accuse us , what you think , we will shake our heads down and say , "Yes , you are right ? " . Because almost all the time accusations are exadurated . Like this one for example .
Notice that it's always European guys starting the accusation , and we are to defend ourself . Where is the right and wrong ? It's ok to accuse someone , but not ok to recieve an answer ? Frankly , i am seek of this circle .

[IDFM203]

I am going to hold off comment on what happened today till more of the facts come out (though good job Javehn and others ;) )

However…..


What you guys are saying, is that these armed men gather all the children they can find, order them to march down the streets so they could hide behind them and use them as shields. If that doesn't sound crasy to you, then you're the one who needs a head check.
Check this out of what happens all the time (and there are more pictures of even kids shielding pali gunman and pali mortars before they are fired that have been posted before on this forum)……

http://www.israel-wat.com/abuse.jpg

………..so tell me does this sound crazy or look crazy and if it is what you see there does that make you crazy for denying that it exists? :roll:




i think you're not seeing the isreali mindset which is one of a steel fist. isreal unlike the us or europe is unafraid to generate civilian casualties.

I don’t really have the energy or time to counter the other things you wrote for it while all that you said wasn’t untrue, it wasn’t at the same time exactly correct and as such id appreciate the next time you form a opinion you make it your own instead of purporting to speak for us.

I mean no disrespect to you but I hope you can understand our concerns when I feel you totally misrepresented our mindset and why it offends us when other purport to speak for us!!

as for the comment of yours that I highlighted, completely false on your part.. We are in a war, but even so we go through great lengths to try to prevent civilian casualties and we do NOT want to generate civilian casualties at all!!

Shalom :D

[Universal]

So you're saying all the accusations you recieved on these forums are all false? Maybe you should read my previous post again.

Do you honestly want all the members to agree together on all the issues, do you know how boring that would be??

[Universal]

I am going to hold off comment on what happened today till more of the facts come out (though good job Javehn and others ;) )

However…..


What you guys are saying, is that these armed men gather all the children they can find, order them to march down the streets so they could hide behind them and use them as shields. If that doesn't sound crasy to you, then you're the one who needs a head check.
Check this out of what happens all the time (and there are more pictures of even kids shielding pali gunman and pali mortars before they are fired that have been posted before on this forum)……

http://www.israel-wat.com/abuse.jpg

………..so tell me does this sound crazy or look crazy and if it is what you see there does that make you crazy for denying that it exists? :roll:




i think you're not seeing the isreali mindset which is one of a steel fist. isreal unlike the us or europe is unafraid to generate civilian casualties.

I don’t really have the energy or time to counter the other things you wrote for it while all that you said wasn’t untrue, it wasn’t at the same time exactly correct and as such id appreciate the next time you form a opinion you make it your own instead of purporting to speak for us.

I mean no disrespect to you but I hope you can understand our concerns when I feel you totally misrepresented our mindset and why it offends us when other purport to speak for us!!

as for the comment of yours that I highlighted, completely false on your part.. We are in a war, but even so we go through great lengths to try to prevent civilian casualties and we do NOT want to generate civilian casualties at all!!

Shalom :D

I'll say it again, you can't draw coclusions from pictures.

[IDFM203]

I'll say it again, you can't draw coclusions from pictures.ok so draw from my words as a soldier that has experienced many times shootings from palis in crowds and they use kids purposely as shields after they fire at us!!!

Shalom

[W(M)D]

Boringggggggggggggggg.... go to whine in a Hamas forum not in here, give more proofs and not just pics to show us how evil is the zionist army .............

Did not realise that Hamas had a (web) forum, probably the only time they discuss/debate anything. Hamas is an absolute embodiment of political thought (NOT).

[Javehn]

So you're saying all the accusations you recieved on these forums are all false? Maybe you should read my previous post again.
Ha ? The accusation are over reacted always . That's what i wrote . Over reacted . The facts are correct, accusations wrong . What post of yourself mighty you are reffering for me to read ? Cause i find it , as you put it yourself , boring .
With whom you think you are talking here ? There are x-soldiers in this forum , that served and endangered their lifes in this conflict .


Do you honestly want all the members to agree together on all the issues, do you know how boring that would be??

Yes , extremelly boring . God forbid this forum would be serious millitary respected one . I can debate more on Hamas forum then here . Every self respected millitary forum have one opinion on this forum . Boring .... Go masturbate or something , if you find it boring , i am here to learn about military equipment . This is suppose to be military forum .

[Javehn]

Did not realise that Hamas had a (web) forum, probably the only time they discuss/debate anything. Hamas is an absolute embodiment of political thought (NOT).

I gave a link to the forum twice here . The idea to use Ambulances as a "human shield" sort of speak was originated from that Website , when one of the forum partisipants gave that idea . But , what do i know?

[AirZone]

I'll say it again, you can't draw coclusions from pictures.ok so draw from my words as a soldier that has experienced many times shootings from palis in crowds and they use kids purposely as shields after they fire at us!!!

Shalom Ahh... yeah people like IDFM203 and Javenh served in the army, in the terretories....I think they know alot more about that place than any other forum memember, whats funny people still think they know better then those who were there and been under fire and such.

Pretty funny.... (or sad) :roll:

[Universal]

So you're saying all the accusations you recieved on these forums are all false? Maybe you should read my previous post again.
Ha ? The accusation are over reacted always . That's what i wrote . Over reacted . The facts are correct, accusations wrong . What post of yourself mighty you are reffering for me to read ? Cause i find it , as you put it yourself , boring .
With whom you think you are talking here ? There are x-soldiers in this forum , that served and endangered their lifes in this conflict .


Do you honestly want all the members to agree together on all the issues, do you know how boring that would be??

Yes , extremelly boring . God forbid this forum would be serious millitary respected one . I can debate more on Hamas forum then here . Every self respected millitary forum have one opinion on this forum . Boring .... Go masturbate or something , if you find it boring , i am here to learn about military equipment . This is suppose to be military forum .

You're here to learn about military equipment?? You're in the wrong place pal, these forums are about finding articles to make the middle-east look its worst

[Javehn]

No . I think this forum is the wrong place for you ;) . If you notice the name , its militaryphotos , not kinderguardenpostings.se . Take your legs and get out if you are out of contribution level .

[Mamon]

What the hell are schoolchildren doing in a protest march? Shouldn't they be in school?

[Threelions]

Isreal is just like every other country that is facing devolution. Atrocities on both sides, with niether side willing to be the bigger man and stop the tit for tat crap. Sri Lanka, Isreal, Chechnya, its all the same crap. We can all sit here and argue, some will say Isreal is the demon, and others say that the palestinians are the bad guys, but trust me, both sides are equally to blame. My solution is if we wait long enough they will just kill each other off and solve the problem for everyone!

Cheers

[Javehn]

Or instead i will come to your mama . Send her my best regards , tell her to shave this time :roll:

Yea , cheers , he ?

[Universal]

No . I think this forum is the wrong place for you ;) . If you notice the name , its militaryphotos , not kinderguardenpostings.se . Take your legs and get out if you are out of contribution level .

Thats where you're wrong, if anyone here is leaving, it should be you, I'm here to stay and if you don't like it, then you're **** out of luck. :D

[Javehn]

Save your smillies for the preason , i don't nead them , ok ;) .

[Universal]

Isreal is just like every other country that is facing devolution. Atrocities on both sides, with niether side willing to be the bigger man and stop the tit for tat crap. Sri Lanka, Isreal, Chechnya, its all the same crap. We can all sit here and argue, some will say Isreal is the demon, and others say that the palestinians are the bad guys, but trust me, both sides are equally to blame. My solution is if we wait long enough they will just kill each other off and solve the problem for everyone!

Cheers

Just what I was trying to say, but you explained it better. :hug: Believe me dude, I know exactly what you're saying and I totaly agree.

[Threelions]

Or instead i will come to your mama . Send her my best regards , tell her to shave this time :roll:

Yea , cheers , he ?

What?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/img/pic_2000.jpg
Palestinian father and son. (the son was shot and died)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=601001
Isreali Father and daughter.

Same s**t different pile! Like i said both sides are to blame and both sides suffer the same!

Cheers

[Javehn]

Do you know that the boy and his father was killed by Palestinian fire ??
Mistake to bring this picture , asshole , eh ?

[Argyll]

Just can't keep it civil can you.

Guys This topic is locked for the same reasons as all the rest.

Have you not read my post just a few back?

I'm pretty certain Anastasios Focht is HELEX :bash: