Seven dead in two US church shootings

[Kilgor]

Seven dead in two US church shootings

December 10, 2007 08:06am

FIVE people, including the suspected attacker, have been killed in a shooting near a church in Colorado Springs.
El Paso County Sheriff Terry Maketa said "one gunman (is) down" and four people were dead, another possibly one wounded in the incident at the New Life Church. He said the casualty toll was preliminary.

Police detained a suspect but gave no details about his condition or a possible motive.

Police cordoned off the New Life Church and locked down several local buildings.

One witness told CNN he saw a young man wearing combat boots and with an assault rifle and a handgun.

Colorado Springs Police Lieutenant Fletcher Howard said police were not sure if a second gunman was at large.

In an earlier incident, 110km away, two people were killed and two were wounded shortly after midnight when a gunman entered a training centre for young missionaries, run by an Australian, in the Denver suburb of Arvada.
The shooting happened just after midnight on Sunday US time at the Youth With a Mission centre in Arvada, a suburb of Denver. Staff at the centre said no Australians were injured.

The gunman is still on the loose.

The missionary centre is run by Peter Warren, who is from Australia, and his Californian-wife Linda.

Staff at the centre said they believed Mr Warren was originally from Sydney.

Mr Warren moved to Denver from California in 1984 to pioneer the centre. He joined Youth With A Mission in Canberra in 1977.

Paul Filidis, a spokesman with Youth With a Mission, said all four of the victims were staff members and US citizens.

The centre+s website lists one Australian, Jesse Furgason from Canberra as working at the missionary. It says he did his missionary training in Perth in 2004 and joined the Colorado centre in 2006.

Mr Filidis was unaware if there were any other Australians studying at the centre.

The two young people killed in the shooting have been identified asm Tiffany Johnson, 26, from Minnesota and Philip Crouse, 23, from Alaska.

Two men, ages 22 and 23, were wounded. One was in critical condition at an area hospital and the other was in stable condition, police said. Their names have not been released.

The gunman was still missing late Sunday morning and a massive manhunt in the snow was under way.

About 45 people were evacuated from the dormitory and moved to a secure, undisclosed location.

Witnesses told police that the gunman was a 20-year-old white male, wearing a dark jacket and skull cap. He may have glasses or a beard.

"There's no blueprint for this, we're just going to be honest and pray for one another, cry with one another," centre director Mr Warren told KUSA-TV.

"Who knows what was going on in this young man's life."

Mr Warren is now comforting those at the centre.

Police with several dogs searched the area through the night, and residents of nearby homes were notified to be on the lookout.

"Why would anybody want to hurt those kids?" said Mimi Martin, who lives near the center. "I just pray for their families."

The dormitory is on the campus of the Faith Bible Chapel but is unaffiliated with the church.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,22897852-952,00.html



At what stage when does enough become enough ?

And not just talking about gun control...

[Hilbert]

At what stage when does enough become enough ?

And not just talking about gun control...

Sadly, there is no real way to prevent these kinds of tragedies. When a person is determined to kill another person, you can make all the laws, regulations, or whatever you want but it won't do any good, they'll find a way.

That is the essential problem.

[Geezah]

There is a good chance that these shootings that have been taking place over the last few days could be copy cat shootings.
Maybe the events that took place last week have started a mud slide of nutters to come out of the wood work and start going after the innocents.

[Shadowstorm]

RIP for the victims who were killed and I hope the victims that were injured be ok.

[Chulo]

jezz this sucks.. im still waiting on hearing from my friends at that YWAM base

[lider_r]

Sadly, there is no real way to prevent these kinds of tragedies. When a person is determined to kill another person, you can make all the laws, regulations, or whatever you want but it won't do any good, they'll find a way.

That is the essential problem.

I wonder how many times i have to post this article before people acknowledge that this theory that 'you can't prevent these kind of shootings' has been disproved?



Gun buyback cuts suicides, massacres (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20926083-1702,00.html)
The Federal Government's weapons buyback scheme has dramatically ended gun massacres and sharply reduced the number of overall firearms deaths, a study has found.
I'm not suggesting something like a gun buyback in the US, but this evidence enough that gun control measures CAN have a positive effect.

[Hilbert]

I wonder how many times i have to post this article before people acknowledge that this theory that 'you can't prevent these kind of shootings' has been disproved?

Get your facts straight first hot shot, I didn't say shootings can't be avoided, I just said that when a person is determined to kill another person, they'll do it with any tool, whether it be a gun, a knife, a car, or a pencil through the eye.

Is one award not good enough for you? Once again, you show us these statistics but you fail to take into consideration what people have told you when you first posted it weeks ago - while it may curb a shooting or two, violent crime as a whole goes through the roof. Your problem is that to you still fail to take into account the larger picture, and if your posting is any indication, probably never will see the the whole view of the matter.

[lider_r]

Sadly, there is no real way to prevent these kinds of tragedies. then perhaps you should be more careful with your wording....

I take this means you agree that some kind of gun control measures can work then?


or a pencil through the eyeoften the mass muderers' weapon of choice...

[Hilbert]

*sigh* And this is coming from the guy who suggests defending your house with a broomstick.

First, lay off the 1+1=3 logic, then read over my postings and actually try and figure out whats being said before pulling words out of your arse.

It's way to late to get into this kind of a debate with you, for the third time.

Moving on.

[Sand Man]

Damn. RIP to those who lost their lives.

Very sad to hear such things happening in light of the Holiday season. :(

My prayers go out to the families affected by this tragedy.

[lider_r]

*sigh* And this is coming from the guy who suggests defending your house with a broomstick.

eerr i said this where?


First, lay off the 1+1=3 logic, then read over my postings and actually try and figure out whats being said before pulling words out of your arse. this is what you said:

"Sadly, there is no real way to prevent these kinds of tragedies. When a person is determined to kill another person, you can make all the laws, regulations, or whatever you want but it won't do any good, they'll find a way."

I then proceeded to post an article which disproved your theory.Case closed.


First the shooting at Omaha, then the shooting of the 7 year old girl six times and now this. All in the same week. I'm at a loss to understand how this couldn't make folk in the US reconsider things?

And, according the other threat about Omaha, the offender stole the weapon from his stepfather's closet? The whole disaster could have been avoided if somebody had actually secured their weapon properly?

[Zoomie]

I then proceeded to post an article which disproved your theory.Case closed.
Ah yes, because Australia=USA. :cantbeli:


First the shooting at Omaha, then the shooting of the 7 year old girl six times and now this. All in the same week. I'm at a loss to understand how this couldn't make folk in the US reconsider things?
It happens because the US is a whole lot bigger than any of the other "success story" countries you toss around. Get a grip on reality please.

[RussDill]

I wonder how many times i have to post this article before people acknowledge that this theory that 'you can't prevent these kind of shootings' has been disproved?

I'm not suggesting something like a gun buyback in the US, but this evidence enough that gun control measures CAN have a positive effect.

What a horrible lie, the number of suicides where guns were used dropped, the number of suicides did not change. The overall statistics are similar.

And in this case, only 1 was killed, there were 7000 people at there the church. So why was only 1 killed? Because the gunman was shot and killed by a law abiding citizen.


Police arrived to find that the gunman had been killed by a member of the church's armed security staff, Myers said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316263,00.html

I'd say that'd stop 'em pretty quick. But, if you want, next time, we'll have the security staff ask what kind of deal they can get on that AK. A buy back.

oh, and to add, recent shootings mentioned, Detroit, Ohamha, VA, Colombine, etc. Its illegal to carry guns. I think I notice a trend.

[akd]

I wonder how many times i have to post this article before people acknowledge that this theory that 'you can't prevent these kind of shootings' has been disproved?

I'm not suggesting something like a gun buyback in the US, but this evidence enough that gun control measures CAN have a positive effect.

*sigh* How many times will you repeat this drivel?

The only strong statistical correlation in Australia was the drop in suicides by firearm, but that is only by firearm. Suicide rates have remained the same (or maybe up now, I think). Big accomplishment! Thousands of guns were protected from the trauma of being used in a suicide!

Massacres on the other hand are exceptional events, and not really something to bandy about as a indicator of the state of safety or violence in a particular country, city, etc. If for 5 years you have one shark attack per year in Australia, and if then in the 6th year there are no shark attacks, do you proclaim that it is now impossible to die by shark attack in Australia and encourage people to jump in the sea with their shorts full of chum?

Massacre's are tragedies, but try to have some perspective. You are highly, highly unlikely to die in a random shooting in the US (or any other civil society). There are so many other things you could target for banning that would actually have greater significant statistical impact on your day to day safety, things that have no protection under the constitution. The fear generated by such shootings is largely media hype.

Statistically, you are more likely to be shot by a cop than shot in a random spree killing, so be careful how you bandy such numbers around.

[lider_r]

What a horrible lie, the number of suicides where guns were used dropped, the number of suicides did not change. The overall statistics are similar.
Did you not read the rest of the article, ergo the most important part-

The rate of homicides, suicides and fatal accidents involving firearms had been declining in the 18 years preceding the new gun law.

After that, the decline doubled, with the biggest fall occurring among the tally of suicides.

"Removing large numbers of firearms from a community can be associated with a sudden and ongoing decline in mass shootings and accelerating declines in total firearm-related deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides,'' the report, published in Injury Prevention, a journal of the British Medical Association, said.



oh, and to add, recent shootings mentioned, Detroit, Ohamha, VA, Colombine, etc. Its illegal to carry guns. I think I notice a trend.

What is the point in state level gun laws when firearms can just be taken across open borders? Any provisions passed by a state are obviously going to be undermined by states where guns are easier obtain.

[Zoomie]

What is the point in state level gun laws when firearms can just be taken across open borders? Any provisions passed by a state are obviously going to be undermined by states where guns are easier obtain.
Wake up lider, firearms can be taken across national boundaries too, which are rather open. Do you honestly think for a second criminals are actually going to give pause for any kind of law?

[lider_r]

*sigh* How many times will you repeat this drivel?
The only strong statistical correlation in Australia was the drop in suicides by firearm, but that is only by firearm. Suicide rates have remained the same (or maybe up now, I think). Big accomplishment! Thousands of guns were protected from the trama of being used in a suicide!

I'll point you to the above post, because you obviously missed the most important bits!


Massacre's are tragedies, but try to have some perspective. You are highly, highly unlikely to die in a random shooting in the US (or any other civil society). There are so many other things you could target for banning that would actually have greater significant statistical impact on your day to day safety, things that have no protection under the constitution. The fear generated by such shootings is largely media hype.That damned liberal media again!

Friend, if there are something like 30 gun murders and over a thousand gun related crimes everyday then you're chances of being caught up in something like that seems pretty good.

[Zoomie]

Friend, if there are something like 30 gun murders and over a thousand gun related crimes everyday then you're chances of being caught up in something like that seems pretty good.
Maybe if you live in Australia. :roll:

[RussDill]

[SIZE=2]Did you not read the rest of the article, ergo the most important part-[I]

The rate of homicides, suicides and fatal accidents involving firearms had been declining in the 18 years preceding the new gun law.

After that, the decline doubled, with the biggest fall occurring among the tally of suicides.


So homicides, suicides, and fatal accidents involving firearms are somehow worse than than homicides, suicides and fatal accidents in general?

Look, here in the US, Toyotas kill thousands every year. I purpose banning them. Years later, we'll examine the statistics and find that fatal accidents involving Toyotas have plummeted. Thus proving that all societies should ban Toyotas.



What is the point in state level gun laws when firearms can just be taken across open borders? Any provisions passed by a state are obviously going to be undermined by states where guns are easier obtain.

Ah, all the places I listed, (except Detroit) its perfectly legal to carry in that state. But not in that particular place. Point being, if someone wants to carry out a mass shooting, they choose somewhere that they can be fairly certain they are safe.

[lider_r]

Wake up lider, firearms can be taken across national boundaries too, which are rather open. Do you honestly think for a second criminals are actually going to give pause for any kind of law?

The firearms that come from within the nations own borders are the ones causing or the problems....


Maybe if you live in Australia. :roll:

How is it exceptable to lose tens of thousands of citizens each year to firearm related deaths in any country?

[RussDill]

How is it exceptable to lose tens of thousands of citizens each year to firearm related deaths in any country?

You keep mentioning firearms, as if they are somehow special. I think you mean "how is it acceptable to lose tens of thousands of citizens each year to accidental or intentional death in any country?"

Is your goal to reduce death rates, or death rates by firearm. Because if its just to reduce death rates by firearm, you are an idiot.

[Zoomie]

How is it exceptable to lose tens of thousands of citizens each year to firearm related deaths in any country?
Because some of those include those shot by police and law abiding citizens defending themselves. Besides, at least twice that amount is killed by motorvehicles every year. I guess that's more acceptable to have lots of people getting killed that way, than to have people dying by guns. :roll:

[lider_r]

You keep mentioning firearms, as if they are somehow special. I think you mean "how is it acceptable to lose tens of thousands of citizens each year to accidental or intentional death in any country?"Is your goal to reduce death rates, or death rates by firearm.

Do i really need to answer this question? This is thread about firearms, specifically deaths by firearms. Its not a thread about accidental death!



Because if its just to reduce death rates by firearm, you are an idiot.

If reducing death rates by firearms is idiocy, then I'd be scared to know what your idea of intelligence is...

[Jaeger07]

Lider_r, I'm with you.

Seriously: I'd like to see someone kill 9 people at a mall with a bat or a knife.

Gun control works.


RIP to the victims

[akd]

Do i really need to answer this question? This is thread about firearms, specifically deaths by firearms. Its not a thread about accidental death! It's not a thread about firearms, it's a thread about 3 murders that occured in religious institutions in Colorado today.




If reducing death rates by firearms is idiocy, then I'd be scared to know what your idea of intelligence is... It's idiocy to focus on firearms before deaths.

[Zoomie]

Lider_r, I'm with you.

Seriously: I'd like to see someone kill 9 people at a mall with a bat or a knife.

Been Done. Heard of the Osaka School Massacre? 8 Children were stabbed to death, 15 others were injured. Bet you liked seeing that. :roll:

[digrar]

Do i really need to answer this question? This is thread about firearms, specifically deaths by firearms. Its not a thread about accidental death!




akd beat me to it, you're making this about your favourite topic when it is in actual fact a thread about a current news event.
I suggest you go and get your arse handed to you in a thread specifically opened to discuss gun control, I'm sure there are several you can go and re start.
This thread gets back on topic as of now.

[Jaeger07]

Been Done. Heard of the Osaka School Massacre? 8 Children were stabbed to death, 15 others were injured. Bet you liked seeing that. :roll:

Hey buddy, I'd rather be faced with a knife-wielding murderer than a gun-toting one 10 out of ten times.

About the incident you refered to: 1: they were children, it would be impossible to do something like this to adults - they would simply run away.

2: Japan is a nice example since it has gun control and also a lot less deaths by firearms than the us

[Jaeger07]

akd beat me to it, you're making this about your favourite topic when it is in actual fact a thread about a current news event.
I suggest you go and get your arse handed to you in a thread specifically opened to discuss gun control, I'm sure there are several you can go and re start.
This thread gets back on topic as of now.

Agreed, lets take the discussion to a more apropriate forum.

This thread should be about news/condolances.
Again RIP to the victims.


I'm out.




EDIT: Why is this thread in the Political Discussions and Rants-forum? Shouldnt this be in General Discussions?

[Kilgor]

Any sane person would agree that the US has a problem when it comes to firearm related mass homicides and the perception of incensed individuals that shooting many people dead is a solution to their problems.

[Ratamacue]

What the **** is wrong with you people?

[Fintin]

A friend of mine works for YWAM out of that base. Luckily she has been out of town for a while. Crazy stuff. My thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of those who passed and were injured.

[RussDill]

EDIT: Why is this thread in the Political Discussions and Rants-forum? Shouldnt this be in General Discussions?

*shrug*, it does encourage a political debate on the topic. I'd think political discussions in this forum should be ok.

[digrar]

EDIT: Why is this thread in the Political Discussions and Rants-forum? Shouldnt this be in General Discussions?


General discussion is for topics of a military nature.

[Rifleman]

At what stage when does enough become enough ?

And not just talking about gun control...

Last night I was on duty, at 20:00 we went to a house fire and pulled 4 kids out. The wife thinks the old man was bangin another chick so she waits for him to go asleep. When he is out she pours lighter fluid on his **** and lights it...kids will be ok but one day they will be teenagers. Mommy has taught them that we set people we love on fire, don't cross em'!

Today I went to lunch with a buddy who is a cop, his district is a bad place that the department has been putting a lot of resources into for a few years now, I asked how thing were going. I have seen Christmas lights this year, he said.

Now, before you go any further into my post think about that answer, what does it mean?

It means the people of that neighborhood are not going to be held down anymore, they are "stepin' up." But, the mommy I wrote about above, she decided the same thing. And the Church shooter, he probably decided he was tired of being held down.

How do you pick out the one that will go off like a bomb in a crowd of 300 million?

[Rifleman]

Any sane person would agree that the US has a problem when it comes to firearm related mass homicides and the perception of incensed individuals that shooting many people dead is a solution to their problems.

I agree that the U.S. has a murder problem and the perception of incensed individuals that killing is a solution to their problems. Where do they get such ideas? In this I include those who take their own lives.

However, drug dealers....for them killing is simply business, if they want to stay in business they have to kill, and it is that simple!

[caleb]

My condolences to the families of the victims.


Police arrived to find that the gunman had been killed by a member of the church's armed security staff, Myers said.

Am I the only one to think there is something inherently wrong with the society of a country when a bloody church has it's "armed security staff"?

In my opinion, the lack of gun control in the USA is only one part of the problem, the other part is the deteriorating social and cultural developement.

We can already see signs of this phenomenom in Europe as well.

[Zoomie]

Am I the only one to think there is something inherently wrong with the society of a country when a bloody church has it's "armed security staff"?
But do you realize that the church's membership is roughly the equivalent to some towns? (10,000 people+)

[Rudolph]

God's terrorist-shooter to tour U.S.
Author fended deadly attack on church that killed 11

Posted: May 1, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/images2/vanwyk.jpg
Charl Van Wyk

WASHINGTON – The only man in the world known to have driven off a deadly terrorist attack on a church with a handgun will be visiting the U.S. for a speaking and media tour later this month.

South African Charl Van Wyk, author of "Shooting Back," (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960) published by WND Books, will speak in several churches in the New York and Washington area May 13-20 and then be available for media interviews May 23-28.

In "Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self-Defense," (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960) Van Wyk makes a biblical, Christian case for individuals arming themselves with guns and does so more persuasively than perhaps any other author because he found himself in a church attacked by terrorists.

"Grenades were exploding in flashes of light. Pews shattered under the blasts, sending splinters flying through the air," he recalls of the July 25, 1993, St. James Church Massacre. "An automatic assault rifle was being fired and was fast ripping the pews – and whoever, whatever was in its trajectory – to pieces. We were being attacked!"

But Van Wyk was not defenseless that day. Had he been unarmed like the other congregants, the slaughter undoubtedly would have been much worse.

"Instinctively, I knelt down behind the bench in front of me and pulled out my .38 special snub-nosed revolver, which I always carried with me," he writes in "Shooting Back." "I would have felt undressed without it. Many people could not understand why I would carry a firearm into a church service, but I argued that this was a particularly dangerous time in South Africa."

During that Sunday evening service, the terrorists, wielding AK-47s and grenades, killed 11 and wounded 58. But the fact that one man – Van Wyk – fired back, wounding one of the attackers, drove the others away. Using his personal and high-profile story as a launch-pad, Van Wyk wrote "Shooting Back" (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960) – which instantly became a South African bestseller, as well as a bestseller for WND, which imported thousands of copies of the original book for sale online to audiences in the U.S. and around the world. http://shop.wnd.com/store/images/items/B0888.jpg

But it was always a challenge maintaining supplies to meet the demand, explains WND founder Joseph Farah. So now, WND Books has published, for the first time in the U.S., an updated, revised and repackaged edition of "Shooting Back" (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960) by Charl Van Wyk.

"I am honored to be a part of this historic undertaking – the republishing of this classic work in the United States," said Farah, founder of WND Books and editor and chief executive officer of WND. "We have been working on this for more than three years. Now everyone can read this amazing and important story, which has applications in terror-stricken America and for Christians and Jews throughout the world."

Far from being just a reliving of the tragedy of the St. James Church Massacre, "Shooting Back" (http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1960) is a thorough examination of the whole issue of armed self-defense from a Christian perspective. It deals with burning questions that plague all conscience-driven people:

Should people, especially Christians, carry arms?
When is it appropriate to defend ourselves and our families?
What can Americans do when our freedom to carry arms is legislated away from us?Using the Bible as his guidepost, Van Wyk makes the case that Christians not only have the right but the duty to defend themselves and other innocents from such aggression.

But this amazing true story doesn't end there. It's also about redemption and reconciliation. Several of the church members who were injured or who lost family members in the attacks, as well as Van Wyk, later met with and forgave some of their repentant attackers. WND is sponsoring Van Wyk's media tour. Editors, hosts and producers who would like to book the author for interviews should make requests now. (press@wnd.com)

[caleb]

But do you realize that the church's membership is roughly the equivalent to some towns? (10,000 people+)

I don't quite get what you're trying to tell me here, do you mean the church needs a security staff armed with guns because of so many members or, that among so many members, someone is likely to carry a gun?

As for the latter, I wouldn't have any objection if this was a regular bloke with a conceald carry permit, attending the church's service.
However, the wording "security staff" concludes that he is actually employed by the chruch for providing security. That is what throws me off.

[Shadowstorm]

Man, it just been a bad week.

[noname]

How do you pick out the one that will go off like a bomb in a crowd of 300 million?


I will say they are probably the one who is on some zoloft/paxil or some other combination of mind altering anti-depressant.

[noname]

Any sane person would agree that the US has a problem when it comes to firearm related mass homicides and the perception of incensed individuals that shooting many people dead is a solution to their problems.

In a nation of drug addicted adults who can't bear reality they turn to their quack(medical) professionals who spend little time actually diagnosing anything, and then prescribe some legal narcotics whose effects are showing themselves in hallucinigenic thoughts of mass murder and suicide. The firearms aren't the issue here.

[akd]

I don't quite get what you're trying to tell me here, do you mean the church needs a security staff armed with guns because of so many members or, that among so many members, someone is likely to carry a gun?

As for the latter, I wouldn't have any objection if this was a regular bloke with a conceald carry permit, attending the church's service.
However, the wording "security staff" concludes that he is actually employed by the chruch for providing security. That is what throws me off.

What I have read so far indicates that it is not a professional security guard that ended the shooting, but an armed church volunteer. Also, she is not a bloke.

Not everyone thinks it is a good idea to herd thousands of defenseless people into relatively small "gun-free zones."

[Hollis]

Not everyone thinks it is a good idea to herd thousands of defenseless people into relatively small "gun-free zones."


Maybe they should rename "gun free zones" to slaughter pits.

[shocker1]

My Pastor packs heat and I bet a few of the Deacons do as well. Our Pastor used to be a sheriff. However I have never heard of "armed security guards" at a church house. I think I would find another church. Preferable a small country Baptist church.

[akd]

"Many, many lives were saved because of the quick action of some committed volunteers," he said.


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2007/dec/09/the-last-place-for-a-deadly-attack/

[Chulo]

I don't quite get what you're trying to tell me here, do you mean the church needs a security staff armed with guns because of so many members or, that among so many members, someone is likely to carry a gun?

As for the latter, I wouldn't have any objection if this was a regular bloke with a conceald carry permit, attending the church's service.
However, the wording "security staff" concludes that he is actually employed by the chruch for providing security. That is what throws me off.\
Both actually - 10,000 members means that someone is in the police or some capacity able to carry a weapon. plus the operation budget of a mega chruch normally goes into the 10's of Millions of dollars and it is private property that needs to be guarded and kept safe. So there is no reason why they would not have private security. Mall police can carry guns, college campus security can carry guns, large Company security can carry guns, and same with a Mega church that most probably have more people and more money invested in.

[akd]

Once again, it was not professional security guard that ended the shooting, but a parishioner who was volunteering to provide security that day. No doubt she has a life and job outside of her hours committed to the church, but the media has clearly decided to brand her as a "hero security guard," rather than mom, teacher, or whatever probably consumes the majority of her life. The reasons, I think, are clear.

[Pille1234]

\
So there is no reason why they would not have private security. Mall police can carry guns, college campus security can carry guns, large Company security can carry guns, and same with a Mega church that most probably have more people and more money invested in.
Now that is exactly the thing that is alienating Caleb and myself. From a European perspective it looks rather disturbing that malls, universities and even churches have or need armed security guards. Over here you wouldn't see anyone carrying a weapon besides police and a handful of money couriers. Obviously that need arises with almost free access to guns. That is not the society I would prefer to live in. Of course this is none of my business as it is your society not mine, but I'm noting severe cultural differences between Europe and the US.

[akd]

Now that is exactly the thing that is alienating Caleb and myself. From a European perspective it looks rather disturbing that malls, universities and even churches have or need armed security guards. Over here you wouldn't see anyone carrying a weapon besides police and a handful of money couriers. Obviously that need arises with almost free access to guns. That is not the society I would prefer to live in. Of course this is none of my business as it is your society not mine, but I'm noting severe cultural differences between Europe and the US.

I have seen heavily-armed police on 24/7 duty at places of worship in Europe.

From arf.com:

I WAS the security director at New Life Church. Up until July 2007. I can answer all this but for the sake of the ongoing investigation, I won't go down too many roads.

The person in question is an unpaid volunteer at the church. She is not paid or compensated in any way. She was carrying her own gun and using her own equipment, other then the radio that she is issued by the church.

She is a state certified peace offier with a long law enforcement - street cop - background. That's all I can say.

But I went througn the academy with her and the only other thing I'll say is......


Thank God she was there and did what she did. If she had not, this would have all come out very differently and very badly.


From denverpost.com:


http://www.ar15.com/images/pixels/clear.gif
http://www.ar15.com/images/pixels/clear.gif
Vietnam vet lauds woman's courage in stopping Springs shooter (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7683781)

Larry Bourbonnais, a combat-tested Vietnam veteran, said it was the bravest thing he's ever seen.

Bourbonnais, who is among those who were shot by a gunman Sunday at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, watched as a security guard, a woman who has not yet been named, calmly returned fire and killed the shooter.

"She just started walking toward the gunman firing the whole way," Bourbonnais, who was shot in the arm, said. "She was just yelling 'Surrender,' walking and shooting the whole time."

Bourbonnais, 59, had just finished up a hamburger in the cafeteria on the sprawling church campus when he heard gunfire, he recalled.

Bourbonnais headed in the direction of the shots as frightened people ran past him looking to escape to safety.

"Where's the shooter, where's the shooter," Bourbonnais kept yelling, he recalled.

Near an entry way in the church Bourbonnais came upon the gunman and an armed male church security guard who was there with his gun drawn but not firing, he said.

Bourbonnais said he pleaded with the armed guard to give him his weapon.

"Give me your handgun, I've been in combat and I'm going to take this guy out," Bourbonnais recalled telling the guard. "He kept yelling, 'get behind me, get behind me.' He wouldn't hand me his weapon but he wouldn't do anything."

There was an additional armed security guard there, another man, who also didn't fire, Bourbonnais said.

Bourbonnais yelled at the gunman to draw his attention, he said.

"First I called him 'Coward!' then I called him 's---head'" Bourbonnais said. "I probably shouldn't have been saying that in church."

That's when the shooter pointed a gun at Bourbonnais and fired, he said.

Bourbonnais ducked behind a hollow, decorative pillar and was hit in the arm by a bullet and fragments of the pillar.

At about that moment, a woman with a drawn handgun turned a corner and walked toward the gunman and yelled "Surrender!" Bourbonnais said.

The gunman pointed a handgun at the woman and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_7682958

The Gunman Hated Christians

edit: That story in the post above is great. Sounds like a tough woman.

[California Joe]

That woman RAWKS!

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html

Here she is..

[Hollis]

I agree with what is said about her. Amazing women.

[shocker1]

The gunman pointed a handgun at the woman and fired three shots, Bourbonnais said. She returned fire and just kept walking toward the gunman pressing off round after round.
Wow, she is a true hero. So she is not a hired security guard but a member of the church who happens to have a permit and training. Also doubling as in house security. I support this as members of my church carry but I don't. I just would not feel right packing in my country church. I do carry elsewhere.

[thunderw]

Maybe they should rename "gun free zones" to slaughter pits.

Too politically incorrect. They want people to feel safe even though they're not.

[Geezah]

Lider_r, I'm with you.

Seriously: I'd like to see someone kill 9 people at a mall with a bat or a knife.

Gun control works.


Oi numpty(I've always wanted to say that!)


Pupils die in Japan knife massacre

A knifeman has killed at least eight pupils in a rampage at their school in western Japan.
Officials say more than 20 other pupils were hurt, along with several teachers. Some are seriously ill in hospital.

There has been no word on a possible motive for the attack at an elementary school in Ikeda, a suburb of Osaka, about 500 km (310 miles) west of Tokyo.

Police say they have detained a man. Reports say he was mentally disturbed.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said he was shocked at the "terrible incident" - one of several knife attacks in Japan recently.

Rampage

Police officials said the stabbings occurred shortly after classes began at the school, which caters for children up to the age of 12.

Fire department official Tetsuo Higashimoto said two of the children were killed immediately. The others died later in hospital. It is believed the children were aged six or seven.

Media reports said the 37-year-old attacker climbed into a classroom, slashing children and teachers before moving on to another.

One schoolgirl described the attack on television.

"He [the attacker] came straight to us and stabbed the teacher. He [the teacher] did not say anything and collapsed," she said.

Police said he used a knife with a 15cm (six inch) blade. Two teachers wrestled him down before police arrived to arrest the attacker, who was also injured and taken to a local hospital.

The victims have been taken to local hospitals. At least one boy and one teacher were undergoing emergency surgery, and were said to be critically ill.

Anxious parents have been arriving at the school. The uninjured pupils have been led to safety on the school's playing fields.

'Disturbed'

The attacker had reportedly been high on medication. Public broadcaster NHK and other media said he had taken a large dose of tranquillisers and appeared incoherent when questioned by the police.

Reports said he had been arrested in March 1999, accused of allegedly putting tranquillisers into the tea of some teachers at a school where he used to work.

He was not prosecuted, apparently because he suffered from psychological problems, the Associated Press news agency quoted a police official as saying.

Murder charges are now being prepared against him.

The attack on a school is believed to be unprecedented in Japan.

But the BBC's Charles Scanlon says there has been growing concern in Japan at a series of extremely violent and apparently motiveless crimes. Many of the most highly publicised cases have been committed by youths in their late teens.

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1376982.stm)

You should do a little research before you spout off about things you have little to no knowledge of.

Gun control only controls the law abiding!

[Zoomie]

Oi numpty(I've always wanted to say that!)



BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1376982.stm)

You should do a little research before you spout off about things you have little to no knowledge of.

Gun control only controls the law abiding!
I already posted that Geezah. And as you can tell from their response (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2921339&postcount=28), they could care less about the facts.

[Geezah]

I already posted that Geezah. And as you can tell from their response (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2921339&postcount=28), they could care less about the facts.

My bad, I quicky scanned across the posts and saw his response and I didn't even make it to the end of the thread.

[timetraveller]

There is a good chance that these shootings that have been taking place over the last few days could be copy cat shootings.
Maybe the events that took place last week have started a mud slide of nutters to come out of the wood work and start going after the innocents.

Was watching the BBC news this morning which a Police statement said that both shootings are linked and the shell casing's that were found were tested ,, came from the same gun ..