U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party

[ariweiner]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq (news - web sites), killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed. Most of the bodies were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One child was headless.

[RomanS]

ariweiner

PORK TASTES GOOD !

[ariweiner]

Pork may taste good. But I kind of dislike eating the meat of an animal that would eat feces.

The above article is Deja vu. Approximately 40 people were killed in 2002 when a AC130 strafed a wedding party in Afghanistan.

[Argyll]

ariweiner

PORK TASTES GOOD !

quit flaming Permski!

[RomanS]

Chicken eats its ****, and its more filthy than pork.

[Bootneck]

Ah, was there celebratory anti-aircraft fire happening at this one as well?


The above article is Deja vu. Approximately 40 people were killed in 2002 when a AC130 strafed a wedding party in Afghanistan.

Both incidents are tragic mistakes. I'm sure you know that but it wouldn't further your cause to note it.

[Beowulf]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack

U.S. Reportedly Kills 40 Iraqis at Party

16 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq (news - web sites), killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.



Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.


Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.


Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.


About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.


Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.


"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.


"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.


The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.


Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.


U.S. troops took the bodies and the wounded in a truck to Rutba hospital, he said.


"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."


Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."


In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire

[Javehn]

Arab weddings have a custom fire their guns . Usually it is getting known to the millitary that wedding is taking place on some location on exact hour , and te news is spread to the troops in order to avoid fire . Apparantly Iraqy family didn't notify the Army , and something even ****tier happend . When they started to fire in the air , aurcraft passed there , and .... Murphy law in it's ugliest form .

Arieweiner , as a muslim you know that Arabs shooting in the air at weddings . You didn't mentioned it .

[budanski]

Celebratory firing again? Tragic, but who the hell throws a wedding at 2:45 in the morning? Time to fire their wedding planner.

[mack pl]

Few months ago on serbian wedding ppl shoot on air too,and they hit some small airplane or helicopter(im not sure),they shoot him down.Ohh,well,kalashnikov could be dangerous ;)

[weedman]

RIP :(

I better add nothing .... :roll:

[mack pl]

RIP :(

I better add nothing .... :roll:agree ;)

[Trident-za]

Celebratory firing again? Tragic, but who the hell throws a wedding at 2:45 in the morning? Time to fire their wedding planner.

Weird wedding, but I guess some "western" wedding celebrations drag on to the early hours of the morning too... never had an all night bender Budanski?

The celebratory firing thing I just don't get at all, but... I guess it is their country and if they want to follow their custom we can't exactly stop them.

Tragic mistake, bad luck to those at the wedding.

[EvanL]

Its a stupid custom to fire off a weapon in the air. But a custom non the less.
Who are we to criticize that? Afterall we have some pretty strange customs in other religions as well.
RIP

[weedman]

Its a stupid custom to fire off a weapon in the air. But a custom non the less.
Who are we to criticize that? Afterall we have some pretty strange customs in other religions as well.
RIPMust agree, it's neither our right nor our duty do complain about the customs of others.

And I can tell you many stupid Western customs... :roll:

[One?]

Chicken eats its ****, and its more filthy than pork.


you sure about that?? (could you provide scientific proof of this statement.) And no this is not a flame. I just want proof thats all.

[Argyll]

Its a stupid custom to fire off a weapon in the air. But a custom non the less.
Who are we to criticize that? Afterall we have some pretty strange customs in other religions as well.
RIPMust agree, it's neither our right nor our duty do complain about the customs of others.

And I can tell you many stupid Western customs... :roll:


yeah tragic,and avoidable with a bit of communication.

Best custom I like is getting it on with the bride before she marries your best mate ;)

[Kenshin]

This is not confirmed yet to be an Aircraft assault right? and Yeah... 3AM wedding?

[RomanS]

Chicken eats its ****, and its more filthy than pork.


you sure about that?? (could you provide scientific proof of this statement.) And no this is not a flame. I just want proof thats all.

you dont like pork either?

[budanski]

Celebratory firing again? Tragic, but who the hell throws a wedding at 2:45 in the morning? Time to fire their wedding planner.
Weird wedding, but I guess some "western" wedding celebrations drag on to the early hours of the morning too... never had an all night bender Budanski?

Never with children at 3am. Michael Jackson, maybe.

[Trident-za]

Oh come on Budanski :roll:

I've been to a good few parties that went on until really late - children are put into a room to sleep while the grown-ups play.... good grief, if the house was targeted, it wouldn't matter if all the kids were sleeping in a room at the opposite end of the house. Get real....

Or are you saying its more likely this wasn't a wedding - the parents decided to "attack" an aircraft at 2:45 am, and bring their children along for the show?

[He219]

Maybe the celebratory gunfire was to wake the children up at 2:45AM?

Let's not rush to judgement here ...
;)

[Anastasius Focht]

Celebratory firing again? Tragic, but who the hell throws a wedding at 2:45 in the morning? Time to fire their wedding planner.

So you usually leave a Party at 10 o'clock in the evening and you never were on an event untill 2:45??? Poor guy.... :lol:

[He219]

^ Dr. Josef Menghelex speaking .....

You've convinced me, Argyll!
p-)

[Marmot1]

Well last week I was on wednig in poland which started 3PM and finished 5:30AM next day... and then again 4PM another day of celebrating started (2 days wedding) and I can assure you that on 4am There were a lot of ppl dancing and also a lot of kids... (I counted 8)

BTW for 150 ppl there were 300L of vodka, two kegs 80L each of beer and keg of wine ;-) )

P.S. Why no one react on permski flaming??? Instead of showing respect to innocent civilians kiled he spread a **** and no one react... double standards for some??? :bash: :bash: :fork:

[mack pl]

You mised Argylls post mate ;) BTW 2l of vodka for one person?OMG cool wedding man,Im impressed ;) :lol:

[Trident-za]

Maybe the celebratory gunfire was to wake the children up at 2:45AM?

Let's not rush to judgement here ...
;)

Agreed He219. But it is kinda easy to blame everyone else, isn't it. Either it was the Iraqis fault for getting themselves blown up (afterall, following your non-western custom is just dumb), or.... they had it coming because they obviously weren't simple civilians. No way in hell anyone but an Iraqi can take blame here :roll: :roll:

If you asked which which was more logical: a wedding celebration that went on until 2:45am (with irresponsible adults) or a bunch of terrorists who decided to take their kids with them on a "operation", well..... you will have a damn hard time convincing me of the latter.

Note: I think this was a tragic ****-up... but the almost compulsary attempt to shift the blame certainly pisses me off.

[Trigger]

Marmot: Argyll told him to knock it off already. Let it go.

On topic:
Everyone who actually witnessed the event and can legitimately pass judgement raise your hand.

That's what I thought. :cantbeli:

[Anastasius Focht]

^ Dr. Josef Menghelex speaking .....

You've convinced me, Argyll!
p-)

What is this Helix Stuff all about??? :bash:

[Marmot1]

ON polish news there is info that it was not a plane but helicopter....

[mack pl]

^ Dr. Josef Menghelex speaking .....

You've convinced me, Argyll!
p-)

What is this Helix Stuff all about??? :bash:Im not sure,but i hope Anastacia Fichte stuff will not start ;)

[RomanS]

P.S. Why no one react on permski flaming??? Instead of showing respect to innocent civilians kiled he spread a **** and no one react... double standards for some??? :bash: :bash: :fork:

I never see you come and pay respect to fallen US soldiers punk.

[Argyll]

^ Dr. Josef Menghelex speaking .....

You've convinced me, Argyll!
p-)

What is this Helix Stuff all about??? :bash:

Paranoid?...........or rumbled?

[weedman]

I never see you come and pay respect to fallen US soldiers punk.That justifies your sovereign contempt to the death of innocent civilians?

[mack pl]

P.S. Why no one react on permski flaming??? Instead of showing respect to innocent civilians kiled he spread a **** and no one react... double standards for some??? :bash: :bash: :fork:

I never see you come and pay respect to fallen US soldiers punk.Boys sent PMs to eachother,ok :|

[Argyll]

Well last week I was on wednig in poland which started 3PM and finished 5:30AM next day... and then again 4PM another day of celebrating started (2 days wedding) and I can assure you that on 4am There were a lot of ppl dancing and also a lot of kids... (I counted 8)

BTW for 150 ppl there were 300L of vodka, two kegs 80L each of beer and keg of wine ;-) )

P.S. Why no one react on permski flaming??? Instead of showing respect to innocent civilians kiled he spread a **** and no one react... double standards for some??? :bash: :bash: :fork:


read the topic from the beggining again marmot and stop jumping the gun!
I've warned him to stop,so leave the moderating to the mods ;)

[Trident-za]

Marmot: Argyll told him to knock it off already. Let it go.

On topic:
Everyone who actually witnessed the event and can legitimately pass judgement raise your hand.

That's what I thought. :cantbeli:

Yeah, good point. Unfortunately this forum would close down pretty damn fast if we applied this as a criterion for posting on any topic.

[martinexsquaddie]

The british army have been handing out pamphlets trying to persuade the locals not to shoot guns in the air with little effect :(
apprantly the night saddam got captured everything was going up into the air with tragic effects :(

[Javehn]

It can be prevented with just a simple coordination between locals and army . If i am not mistaken , that what was done in SL during the 80's to prevent some serious **** to happend .
Someone focked up and didn't notified to the chain that there is a wedding in the AO , with shooting .

He219 , what do you think about that matter ? No pictures to judge on this point , but the wedding seams pretty peacefull to me , don't you say ?

[Merik]

I heard on the news that the Iraqis where firing in the air and the 64 pilot believed he was taking fire so he returned it. Remember, if a round doesnt actually hit your aircraft you dont know what direction they are going unless its a tracer. Honeslty I think this was prety damn funny cause it'll teach them not to shoot in the air anymore.

[weedman]

Honeslty I think this was prety damn funny cause it'll teach them not to shoot in the air anymore.It was especially funny for these young children getting killed ...you IDIOT.

[martinexsquaddie]

especially has theres now another tribal group looking for revenge :roll: :(

[He219]

He219 , what do you think about that matter ? No pictures to judge on this point , but the wedding seams pretty peacefull to me , don't you say ?

I posted a picture to disprove your claim that the Palestinian demonstration was full of gunmen, like the Hamas rallies.

Your claim that secondary explosions from the weapons in the crowd of the Palestinians caused fatalities was my rational for posting it.

Both events are a tradgedy. Don't be a smartass.


http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7288/7288512.jpg

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7288/7288558.jpg

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7288/7288557.jpg

Iraqis prepare graves after an alleged missile attack by U.S. Armed Forces, during a wedding in Ramadi, Iraq Wednesday, May 19, 2004, in this image from television. (AP Photo/APTN) ** TV OUT **

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7288/7288547.jpg

http://accuweather.ap.org/apdbs/Intl_Photos/views/mini/7288/7288492.jpg

[LeMat]

It is so called "freedom". These killed people are so happy! They were murdered in free country!

If you want to tell that it was stupid to shoot into the air remember - it is THEIR country and it is THEIR tradition. US are GUESTS in Iraq.

[LordHalbert]

Do you think terrorists shot at US air assets knowing full well that a wedding was nearby. Sounds like something they would do.

[IDFM203]

I know you posted this to Javehn but I might as well respond as well ;)


Both events are a tradgedy. Don't be a smartass. Yes both events indeed are a tragedy, but the one between both of you who was initiating the smartass trollish comments were YOU.

For that pic and your one line smartass comment was clear as to what you tried to institute and it was a trollish comment, for you did nothing but use a Helex style, you know throw in a pic and a one liner and then you run……. even though that pic had nothing at all to do what Javehn claimed in THAT thread where he said “How about the people who were armed and hiding amongst the crowd” (I mean he didnt say there were full of gunman or even compare it to a hamas rally).



Also he claimed we didn’t target civilians and it was a tragic accident, but that pic and the one liner didn’t exactly convey that truth and it was wrong for you to do!!….I mean it would be like if I did nothing in this thread but bring down a wedding pic from today of them all joyous and then say underneath it “doesn’t look like Iraqi insurgents to me”.

I hope you get my point.


Anyways despite this,

Shalom to you :D

[Fargin]

Seems like +40 people attending a wedding party was killed in a tradgic accident.

Some use this incident to taunt US forces in general and some seems to deny that such accidents happen and pass all blaim on the killed. **** all of you.

[American Patriot]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Not being callous but that's the sad reality for them right now.

[Trident-za]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Are you kidding? You want the Iraqi people to apply to the US for perimssion to get married? In their own country?

[Gringo]

ariweiner

PORK TASTES GOOD !

The Pulp Fiction Dialogues belong to me and MolliG. Reservoir Dogs isn't reserved though, that you can do. ;)

[Kriz]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Are you kidding? You want the Iraqi people to apply to the US for perimssion to get married? In their own country?

Duh, operation Iraqi Freedom remember ;)

No wait that doesn't really make sense :roll:

[Anastasius Focht]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Not being callous but that's the sad reality for them right now.

Ummm.... that is a Joke? Please say it is.... was it? :cantbeli:

And firing in the air is an old tradition there, the incident in Afghanistan should have brought that to the minds of the Army.

Making the same mistake the second time.... not good.

[catdat]

Um... not to shake you guys boat too much but every fourth of july there are plenty of Americans that think it's a fun idea to shoot guns in the air too. Sometimes with tragic results. I admit I wouldn't cry too much if someone returned the fire.

Speaking of traditions - in the US we used to have shoot outs between people right out on the street - they were called gunfighters. We've grown out of that behavior. Maybe the Iraqis should grow up too.

[American Patriot]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Not being callous but that's the sad reality for them right now.

Ummm.... that is a Joke? Please say it is.... was it? :cantbeli:

And firing in the air is an old tradition there, the incident in Afghanistan should have brought that to the minds of the Army.

Making the same mistake the second time.... not good.

Another liberal kneejerk reaction. Do you always blame everything bad that happens on Americans?

THEY NEED PERMITS FROM INTERIM AUTHORITY TO HAVE 'FIRE YOUR AK INTO THE AIR'-TYPE WEDDINGS OR THEY WILL BE SHOT UPON.

That's probably not what even happened there. We will know what really happened after American investigation.

[American Patriot]

Speaking of traditions - in the US we used to have shoot outs between people right out on the street - they were called gunfighters. We've grown out of that behavior. Maybe the Iraqis should grow up too.

Maybe in Western movies.

[Denat]

Few months ago on serbian wedding ppl shoot on air too,and they hit some small airplane or helicopter(im not sure),they shoot him down.Ohh,well,kalashnikov could be dangerous ;)

I remember that. It was some Cessna I presume, but not sure. Those damn AK's are really dangerous ****, especially in drunken' hands ;)

[Argyll]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Not being callous but that's the sad reality for them right now.

Ummm.... that is a Joke? Please say it is.... was it? :cantbeli:

And firing in the air is an old tradition there, the incident in Afghanistan should have brought that to the minds of the Army.

Making the same mistake the second time.... not good.

Another liberal kneejerk reaction. Do you always blame everything bad that happens on Americans?

THEY NEED PERMITS FROM INTERIM AUTHORITY TO HAVE 'FIRE YOUR AK INTO THE AIR'-TYPE WEDDINGS OR THEY WILL BE SHOT UPON.

That's probably not what even happened there. We will know what really happened after American investigation.

Are you totally sure about this AP?..........no witch hunt here,cause I'm not sure about it that's all

[American Patriot]

I think the Americans should start selling the Iraqis blank-firing adaptors and blanks for their AKs :lol:

[Anastasius Focht]

Maybe next time the Iraqi people will realize that America is engaged operations throughout the country and they will get the necessary permits to have their wedding.

Not being callous but that's the sad reality for them right now.

Ummm.... that is a Joke? Please say it is.... was it? :cantbeli:

And firing in the air is an old tradition there, the incident in Afghanistan should have brought that to the minds of the Army.

Making the same mistake the second time.... not good.

Another liberal kneejerk reaction. Do you always blame everything bad that happens on Americans?

THEY NEED PERMITS FROM INTERIM AUTHORITY TO HAVE 'FIRE YOUR AK INTO THE AIR'-TYPE WEDDINGS OR THEY WILL BE SHOT UPON.

That's probably not what even happened there. We will know what really happened after American investigation.

To know what really happened there should be a UN investigation, an US investigation means we will know what the Army wants that happened....
And you want that every celebration in the Iraqi equivalent of "Hillbilly county" to be reported to a not existing auhority that even hasnt Baghdad under control?
:roll:

[American Patriot]

The Iraqi authority doesn't exist? What about the interim government, the IP, ICDC, etc?

Maybe you don't need a permit but it would be prudent to at least notify coalition or IP.

[usa320]

Just in from CNN


"Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that U.S. troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them," a Pentagon spokesman said.



im guessing that there were ground forces in the area who had a positive visual that the aircraft were infact engaging hostile targets.

[UkrainianAmerican]

While part of the blame lies with the wedding organizers who didnt notidy the CPA, its still a really tragic event :( :( :(
RIP :(

[usa320]

It wasnt a wedding. It was hostile fighters, in vehicles.

Who drives around in trucks with Ak-47's and RPG's and 3am to celebrate a ****ing wedding?

[CRAZY MERC]

To usa320:
Do you remember when US planes bombed and killed 4 Canadians in Afghanistan? For two months after that Pentagon was saying they were shot at by ground fire. US is just trigger happy sometimes........

[usa320]

and sometimes liberals are just to dense to realize that people dont drive around at 3am with machine guns in a war zone to celebrate a wedding.

[Argyll]

The only thing that struck me as odd was the scenes of mourning,where quite a few of them were not to keen on showing their faces,they were fully wrapped in shemaghs,and some were very conscious of the camera and were trying to cover there faces........why would they do that?

They also appeared to be "young men"..........call me suspicious,but a lot of what was reported lacked a bit of sense..........I'm withholding judgement on this one for the time being

[Ichhabe]

It wasnt a wedding. It was hostile fighters, in vehicles.

Who drives around in trucks with Ak-47's and RPG's and 3am to celebrate a f*** wedding?

Quite ironic as when I read your ignorant comment, there is a program from Planet Hollywood about customs around the world regarding weddings. There they have sequense about a wedding in Jordan. And guess what? It is being celebrated in to the darkest of night. And have another guess on what they are doing. Shooiting up in the air with AK's.

Try to do a google search up on Arab wedding traditions.

[Moledet]

What an Antisemitic world, I still haven't heard even one condemnation for this attack. We kill 8 and the whole world condemn us another country kills 6 times more people and no one says a word.

[Ichhabe]

What an Antisemitic world, I still haven't heard even one condemnation for this attack. We kill 8 and the whole world condemn us another country kills 6 times more people and no one says a word.

Strange I must say. Cause I can't see you doing it either. To bissy condemning the IDF-attack I guess?

[Moledet]

What an Antisemitic world, I still haven't heard even one condemnation for this attack. We kill 8 and the whole world condemn us another country kills 6 times more people and no one says a word.

Strange I must say. Cause I can't see you doing it either. To bissy condemning the IDF-attack I guess?
The US didn't condamn Israel. But Europe did and the Arabian countries even called us Nazis, ahhh the hypocrisy :|

[Ichhabe]

What an Antisemitic world, I still haven't heard even one condemnation for this attack. We kill 8 and the whole world condemn us another country kills 6 times more people and no one says a word.

Strange I must say. Cause I can't see you doing it either. To bissy condemning the IDF-attack I guess?
The US didn't condamn Israel. But Europe did and the Arabian countries even called us Nazis, ahhh the hypocrisy :|

So Collin Powel's voice is not tuned in to your frequency?

[Moledet]

What an Antisemitic world, I still haven't heard even one condemnation for this attack. We kill 8 and the whole world condemn us another country kills 6 times more people and no one says a word.

Strange I must say. Cause I can't see you doing it either. To bissy condemning the IDF-attack I guess?
The US didn't condamn Israel. But Europe did and the Arabian countries even called us Nazis, ahhh the hypocrisy :|

So Collin Powel's voice is not tuned in to your frequency?


Haaretz:
U.S. President George Bush on Wednesday urged "restraint" by Israel and Palestinians, but declined to condemn the Israel Defense Forces Rafah attack.

"We are very concerned about reports from Gaza and the number of Palestinians who are said to have been injured and killed," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said.

"We have asked the Government of Israel for the facts about what happened today. We will continue to follow this closely and we urge all parties to exercise maximum restraint," McClellan said.

I couldn't find anything more.

[Moledet]

Double post. grrrrr

[Kilgor]

Im pretty sure that firing weapons into the air under sadams rule was banned to, thats of course unless he stood on a balcony and did it ;)

Instant prision for those who did.

Its a highly dangerous activity which they have been told NOT to do, and which kills scores of people around the world from accidents.

The bullets return to earth at 300-700 feet per second, and only 200 FPS is enough to crack a skull.

[Bootneck]

Pentagon says it attacked fighters -- not wedding
Witnesses say Iraqi wedding attacked near Syria



BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Pentagon officials Wednesday denied alleged eyewitness reports of a U.S. attack on a wedding party in a remote area of western Iraq that killed innocent civilians.

"Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that U.S. troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them," a Pentagon spokesman said.

He was responding to a video distributed by The Associated Press showing Iraqi witnesses who said that at least 20 people were killed and five others critically wounded early Wednesday when planes fired on a wedding celebration.

A man on the video said all homes in the village near the Syrian border were destroyed in the attack at about 3 a.m. local time Wednesday.

The video showed at least a dozen bodies, including small children, wrapped in blankets for burial as they were unloaded from a truck.

Men with picks and shovels were digging a series of graves in the video.

A senior military coalition official said as many as 40 people were killed in the attack, but said it was his belief that the attack was against a foreign fighters' safe house.

A coalition official said in a written statement that coalition forces conducted a military operation "against a suspected foreign fighter's safe house in the open desert, 85 km southwest of Husaybah, and 25 km from the Syrian border.

"During the operation, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided.

"Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said.

Asked if the incident was the same one described on videotape, he said, "Yes, it is the same incident."

He added, "We had actionable intelligence to go after a foreign fighters' safe house. It is not our belief that there was a wedding party in the open desert."

The taped witnesses identified the village as al Qa'im, which maps show is on the Iraqi side of the Syrian border, along the Euphrates River.

In Afghanistan two years ago, U.S. airstrikes killed dozens of civilians at a wedding party.

After an investigation, a report issued by U.S. Central Command blamed those deaths on hostile anti-aircraft fire from the ground that provoked a U.S. AC-130 gunship to respond.

Local Afghans said that U.S. forces confused "celebratory fire" from wedding participants for hostile fire, but the U.S. military found that several compounds in the area were "positively identified" as sources of anti-aircraft artillery fire.

Two U.S. soldiers killed
The report came as military officials said two U.S. soldiers from the 1st Infantry Division were killed in northern Iraq, one of them by hostile fire, and a Marine previously reported killed in western Iraq died of causes unrelated to combat.

A soldier was shot to death around 4:30 p.m. Tuesday while on patrol in the town of Muqdadiyah, according to a statement from the 1st Infantry Division, based in Tikrit. An unidentified gunman fired on the soldier's patrol from a cemetery, the statement said.

Another soldier died in an electrical accident Tuesday evening at a coalition base near Baiji. The identities of soldiers were not released.

Meanwhile, the Marines reclassified the death of one of their troops as "nonhostile" in a statement Wednesday.

The Marine, initially reported as killed in action, was assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. The death occurred in Kamah, near Fallujah, the the U.S.-led coalition said. Fallujah is a Sunni Muslim stronghold where resistance to the U.S. occupation has been the strongest.

The United States has lost nearly 800 troops in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion that deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. The majority of the dead have been killed in a guerilla campaign against occupation forces that began after the collapse of Saddam's government.

In Washington, the chief of U.S. forces in the Middle East told a Senate panel Wednesday there was no pattern of prisoner abuse by American troops.

But Gen. John Abizaid said preliminary findings by the Army's inspector general cite problems in training and organization and recommend "very specific changes."

"I specifically asked the [inspector general] of the Army, did he believe that there was a pattern of abuse of prisoners in the Central Command area of operation?" Abizaid testified. "And he looked at both Afghanistan and Iraq, and he said no." (Full story)

CNN Baghdad Bureau Manager Kevin Flower and senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre in Washington contributed to this report.


After further investigation this could turn out to be a tragic mistake. However nothing I've seen so far tells me that this is anything other than what the Pentagon claims it to be. Foreign fighters have been known to have their families in tow. The death of innocents, especially children, is unintentional and greatly regretted by all involved. This is the key point. Some people just refuse to see it.

[catdat]

American Patriot wrote:

Maybe in Western movies.

Your "knowledge" of American History is limited to what you see on TV?
Cause if you think all that's a myth then who's this?
http://www.americanwest.com/pages/docholid.htm

I'm trying to make the analogy that Iraq has a degree of lawlessness that was similar to what may have existed in Tempe, AZ 130 years ago. Since you brought up westerns you've probably seen depictions of cowboys celebrating by firing their weapons into the air. My point being is this is a normal way to celebrate in many countries at certain stages of their social development but I think it's time they move on.

The Iraqis can kiss my M3A1. You fire a bunch of weapons around US ground forces in a combat zone don't whine about the consequences.

[Merik]

Honeslty I think this was prety damn funny cause it'll teach them not to shoot in the air anymore.It was especially funny for these young children getting killed ...you IDIOT.


Dont even patrionize me with that crap. I know full and damn well there were children there, but the "adults" probably should not have brought the weapons in the first place. Remember its a f-ing war zone asshole?

[Merik]

To usa320:
Do you remember when US planes bombed and killed 4 Canadians in Afghanistan? For two months after that Pentagon was saying they were shot at by ground fire. US is just trigger happy sometimes........


Actually that wasnt a case of being "trigger-happy." If you knew what really happened then you wouldnt go on saying that crap. It was the pilot's fault that led to that incident. It wasnt that he was trigger happy, he didnt know allied forces were in the area because he didnt read the information on the flight ops board.


Dont go around throwing **** in the air when you dont know what your talking about please.

[Kilgor]

Any sources as to watch aircraft(s) carried out the unfortunate attack ?

[blancitaloca]

Just posing a thought.... I'm a girl so be gentle...

What if the place where that wedding was, was actually a target the US was actually going for. Is it possible that the Iraqis knew they were being targeted and used the women and children to dissuade the US from attacking (or just to make the US look bad)? Are kids always up at that time over there? And, haven't they been known to use their women and children for such defenses?

[One?]

The only thing that struck me as odd was the scenes of mourning,where quite a few of them were not to keen on showing their faces,they were fully wrapped in shemaghs,and some were very conscious of the camera and were trying to cover there faces........why would they do that?

They also appeared to be "young men"..........call me suspicious,but a lot of what was reported lacked a bit of sense..........I'm withholding judgement on this one for the time being


I saw the bodies on arab tv. And I counted at least 13 kids, most of them were not even teens. Their body was too small. Most of the faces were burnt and its just something you don't want to look at.

[Ichhabe]

Just posing a thought.... I'm a girl so be gentle...

What if the place where that wedding was, was actually a target the US was actually going for. Is it possible that the Iraqis knew they were being targeted and used the women and children to dissuade the US from attacking (or just to make the US look bad)? Are kids always up at that time over there? And, haven't they been known to use their women and children for such defenses?

A quick search with www.google.com will give a lot of answers on traditional Arab weddings. I have given some of the answers in this article the colour red.

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=3937


‘Wedding Days’ Replace ‘Wedding Nights’ In Iraq: Lack of law and order triggered daylight weddings in Iraq

by Aws Al-Sharqy, IslamOnline.net
April 2nd, 2004


BAGHDAD, April 2 (IslamOnline.net) - Wedding nights have become “wedding days” in occupied Iraq, thanks to lack of security and stability in the war-scarred country.
For fear of endless crimes committed under cover of night, Iraqis are usually forced to do away with a universally-recognized practice; to hold wedding celebrations at night.

IslamOnline.net correspondent tracked down the real causes behind the strange practice that came along with the U.S.-led occupation.
“Changing marriage rituals came amidst growing rumors that gangs attack wedding convoys, kidnap the bride or any other female guest to seize their jewels or demand a ransom,” IOL was told.

Badria Sultan has a unique experience as a mother of two new husbands before and after occupation of her oil-rich country.

Her first son, Haroun, married in a jovial wedding ceremony held at night until the small hours of the next day before the U.S.-British invasion began on March 20, 2003.
Her second, Saadun, was less fortunate though.
“He got hitched in full day light last week, with no ceremony or even signs of usual festivity,” the traumatized mother said.

Common

The change is not limited to this bitter experience of the two brothers and their mother though. It is something felt and suffered by many others in the war-scarred country.
Iraq has fallen into a seething, bubbling cauldron of chaos, anarchy after the U.S. occupation forces rolled into Baghdad, almost a year ago.

One year after the invasion, the lack of law and order is still there, local inhabitants say.
Human Rights Watch (HRW) said in a report released Wednesday, July 16, that the failure of Iraqi and U.S. occupation authorities to provide public security in Iraq's capital lies at the root of a widespread fear of rape and abduction among women and their families.
The report was named “Climate of Fear: ****** Violence and Abduction of Women and Girls in Baghdad”.

New Phenomenon

“The irony of is that our country only witnessed these daylight weddings at the time of occupation,” said Mohsen Al-Qubeisi.
Qubeisi was forced to cancel a ceremony ritual held one day before joining in the wedlock in view of the turbulent situation.

The new husband called the new circumstance “an irony”, as many Iraqis were disillusioned with the U.S. empty promises of a better life after the overthrow.

The country is endowed with the world's second oil reserves that turned peoples of neighboring countries more affluent.
Although people hate Saddam, they also loathe being under occupation, which they say only left them suffering under more tough conditions.

“Stability and security is a dream for us now,” said Ahmed Al-Saher, 45.
“some worshippers stopped going to mosque prayers for fear of being stolen or assaulted,” he said, adding families strive to attempt to adapt to the current no-order-of-law situation.

Others Feel Pinch

The brunt of the daylight weddings has also extended to professions associated with wedding rituals and ceremonies.

Madeleine Zako, a hairdresser’s owner, said all of her work is now carried out during the day, unlike the usual night shifts Mondays and Thursdays.
Singers also quit out of the borders, with John Amanweel, a party hall owner, saying the scenes of wedding parties in which big names show up turned rare after the occupation.
Wedding nights usually turn into a tragedy, with possible random shootings in almost daily raids by occupation forces and gangsters using darkness a smokescreen for their illegal activity.

The country has also been inflicted with cascading outrage and all-night curfews that restricted movement of local inhabitants after the invasion.

Hassan Saleh Al-Mashhadani, 34 managed only to invite 200 people of his family to his wedding ceremony held on the light of lanterns and with the use of palm-made traditional fans in the searing summer heat last summer.
“We spent the whole night covered in sweat, with a searing temperature exceeding 50 Celsius,” the Iraqi husband recalled his first day in marriage.

“I had expected that the situation would improve after the fall of the Saddam regime and the entry of Americans,” he said.

No Marriage

The examples are not uncommon, but as many Iraqis turn away from the whole idea of marriage after most of them lost their jobs and sources of living.
Samia Al-Malki told of her 22-year-old son's dilemma.
“All his marriage plans turned awry. It is enough for the family to rather concentrate on just one thing - how to make ends meet,” she said.
For young male Iraqis, the question when the situation would turn back into normal for a much better life and a day to tie the knot remains - rather suspending.


And yes, it is normal that children take part in these night time weddings.

[American Patriot]

That tradition doesn't jive too well with the coalition. Maybe they will stop doing it or they are willing to die for it.

[Nizark]

Pork may taste good. But I kind of dislike eating the meat of an animal that would eat feces.

Thank you Samuel L Jackson...seen pulp fiction recently?

[American Patriot]

BTW, they waited (key word) for their freedom for 35 years, don't you think they can wait another couple?

[Dagon]

2 things:

1) It was night. Did they actually see the plane? hear it? I think no.

2) remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan

They weren't in a city. Perhaps the wedding couple and guests thought they could carry out a traditional wedding in this remote place.

[Argyll]

The only thing that struck me as odd was the scenes of mourning,where quite a few of them were not to keen on showing their faces,they were fully wrapped in shemaghs,and some were very conscious of the camera and were trying to cover there faces........why would they do that?

They also appeared to be "young men"..........call me suspicious,but a lot of what was reported lacked a bit of sense..........I'm withholding judgement on this one for the time being


I saw the bodies on arab tv. And I counted at least 13 kids, most of them were not even teens. Their body was too small. Most of the faces were burnt and its just something you don't want to look at.

I meant the mourners "One"....not the fatalities,I really feel for their loss tho',another accident that could have been avoided by both parties concerned :(

[Marmot1]

That tradition doesn't jive too well with the coalition. Maybe they will stop doing it or they are willing to die for it.
WHAT??? you want them to change their traditions because you are ocupying them??? :cantbeli:

[vikingblade]

the close location to syrian border is giving me red flags. more info will follow im sure. we havnt heard all the details on this yet.

as far as the issue of wanting them to stop their custom of shooting in the air, well, they can do what they wish. but, they will continue to get killed if they fire in the direction of us aircraft. that said, the loss of innocent life, especially children is terrible.

everyone can say what they want, but personally, if any action on my behalf could cause harm or death of my child, whether directly or indirectly, i would stop the dangerous behavior. custom or not. end of fukin story. shooting firearms into the air, in a country at war, with military aircraft flying everywhere, at 3 in the morning, at the syrian border, with children all around, is stupid beyond belief.

[ibstolidude]

2 things:

1) It was night. Did they actually see the plane? hear it? I think no.

Are talking about the same incident?

[Dagon]

2 things:

1) It was night. Did they actually see the plane? hear it? I think no.

Are talking about the same incident?

Somehow I got the impression that it was night. Guess it wasn't :(

[wulfstan]

I bet in all the years people have been firing in the air to celebrate weddings etc, there have been hundreds/thousands of deaths. Strange how this is not a topic to be discussed among the more 'morally aware' people in the west!

[Merik]

I bet in all the years people have been firing in the air to celebrate weddings etc, there have been hundreds/thousands of deaths. Strange how this is not a topic to be discussed among the more 'morally aware' people in the west!

Hehe what goes up must come down.

[Ichhabe]

I bet in all the years people have been firing in the air to celebrate weddings etc, there have been hundreds/thousands of deaths. Strange how this is not a topic to be discussed among the more 'morally aware' people in the west!

That was quite an interesting observation from you. I am actually stunned by your accusations.
In fact, I don't even know how to respond to that. It is just so stupid that I want to frame that comment and put it on the wall as a reminder so that I can avoid saying stupid comments.

[RomanS]

I seriously feel bad for the innocent people, because they were probably not aware that Americans will fire at a barage of shooting guns.

RIP

[pinkeye]

the close location to syrian border is giving me red flags. more info will follow im sure. we havnt heard all the details on this yet.

as far as the issue of wanting them to stop their custom of shooting in the air, well, they can do what they wish. but, they will continue to get killed if they fire in the direction of us aircraft. that said, the loss of innocent life, especially children is terrible.

everyone can say what they want, but personally, if any action on my behalf could cause harm or death of my child, whether directly or indirectly, i would stop the dangerous behavior. custom or not. end of fukin story. shooting firearms into the air, in a country at war, with military aircraft flying everywhere, at 3 in the morning, at the syrian border, with children all around, is stupid beyond belief.

damn those iraqis!! how dare they adhere to their customs in their own country!! how dare they celebrate a joyous occasion!! don't they know they are supposed to be cowering?! don't they know that rumsfeld and co. continue to reassure the american public that current hostilities are limited to a few areas and not ravaging the entire country?! don't they know that rural areas, even those close to the syrian border, are no place to hold weddings? they should do so in najaf!!

let's stop blaming the iraqis for wanting to add some cheer to their difficult lives. this was a tragic error on the part of the pilot(s). our thoughts should be with all involved.

[budanski]

The media apology fascination continues...

U.S. Marine general says no apology for Iraq attack
******* (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/MAR051038.htm)

FALLUJA, Iraq, May 20 (*******) - A U.S. Marine general said on Thursday he had no need to apologise for an attack in the remote Iraqi desert that killed around 40 people who witnesses say included women and children celebrating a wedding.

"How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles (16 km) from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles (130 km) from the nearest civilisation?" Major General James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, told reporters in Falluja.

"These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let's not be naive."

Asked about witness testimony and footage from Dubai-based Al Arabiya television which showed weeping relatives lowering bodies, one of a child, into graves, he said: "I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don't have to apologise for the conduct of my men."

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the U.S. military in Iraq, earlier told ******* the attack early on Wednesday had targeted "a suspected foreign fighter safe house", 25 km (16 miles) east of the Syrian border.

Witnesses said the attack was on a house where a wedding had been held and killed 41 people.

Interesting blog...

http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/

"Why was a wedding party in full swing at 02:45 am in the middle of the desert? A glance at the map would show the area in which the wedding took place was 250 kilometers from "Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi," and who "put the death toll at 45." A long way to go for medical treatment or burial when Qusabayah is 50 kilometers away. Under normal circumstances, there are two wounded for every dead. By the normal ratios there should have been at least 90 injured. There was a videotape of "showing a truck containing bodies of people who were allegedly killed in the incident. Most of the bodies were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One of the children was headless." A video of the dead, but where were the wounded?

Nothing to discredit the initial report on the face of it, and Faramarzi was correct in reporting the initial details, but there enough for someone to say 'get in closer for a better look'. Long before we found out about the satcom radios, the weapons and the cash at the "wedding party". In a war where battlefield reality is no longer directly experienced by the majority, the 'closer look' is all the public has to on which to base decisions which may spell national victory or defeat. But sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? If the newspapers have neither tracking cell, nor map, nor ruler, nor calendar to follow events how can the public tell what really happened? At this writing, 24 hours after the initial story, some newspapers are still reporting the incident as an attack on a wedding party while others describe it as a strike against a militant group. Two versions and no closure. Except in the case of individual news threads, like Faramarzi's, whose content has evolved, the reportage as a whole resembles a palimpsest, a word used to describe a sheet of parchment which has been overwritten many times by different symbols until finally the newer cannot be distinguished from the older."