Unfortunate accident at Rafah - Part II

[Javehn]

This is how it happend , according to IDF press release . Another Murphy in action . This event was called in Israel as Khana accident II . :(
RIP to the innocent victoms from IDF spokesman .... :( There are 10 killed people from this one .

This is how it's happend .

http://img.lj.com.ua/pepel/dotz.jpg

There is engagement between IDF and armed palestinian in the place called Tel Soltan , north of the map , red cubical and an arrow . Meanwhile the parade is comming closer to engagement perimeter , the way of advance is seen on the red arrow . There is a firefight in a red circle , and the parade is getting closed to that perrimeter . Helicopter performing fire on open field , as it seen on orange , in order to make the parade stay away from firefight perimeter . It's not helping , and tank performing shell fire on a nearby house in red perimeter . The house is full of planted IED , and people in the parade carrying grenades and RPG , and they all detonated . The result was devastating .

Murphy laws of war in action :( .

[weedman]

Murphy laws of war in action :( .Murphy or not, Israel is in my opinion completely responsible for what had happened.

[Javehn]

That is your opinion . Ok .
How about the people who were armed and hiding amongst the crowd , it was established . They are not responsible at all ? In any case , what happened is very unfortunate . :( :(

[Obergefreiter]

This will turn into a flame war, but I have to say that in my opinion, if the palistinians would just stop being trouble they would not have this problem. This is a bad thing, but they share responseability.

[weedman]

That is your opinion . Ok .
How about the people who were armed and hiding amongst the crowd , it was established . They are not responsible at all ? In any case , what happened is very unfortunate . :( :(OK, let me say, these hiding amongst the crowd were also not innocent, but this action was in my opinion more than just a bad accident because of the gravity of the attack.

[Javehn]

Well , this particular drill is highly trained in IDF , but this indeed was something that was not expected . :| It's called to establish perimeter by fire . By very sadly and ironicly , the house that was targetted was full of explosives , and was strengthed by explosives from armed people amongst the crowd . :(


but this action was in my opinion more than just a bad accident because of the gravity of the attack.

I am not shure what you mean by gravity of the attack ... ? This was millitary drill that gone bad , very simple .

[Mark_Aspen]

Alright Weedman, I'll accept your argument that we are resposnible, whatever that ultimately means. But why do I get the feeling that for you or for the "left" in general, it gives you another fact to further a position that Israel isn't legitimate, or shouldn't exist because of its conflict with the "innocent" Palestinian Arabs? Had this occurred in a similar shape and form to Russia in Chechnya, Indonesia in Timor, Mexico in Chiapas, or the US in Iraq (as it did today) or Afghanistan, no one would call for the dismantling of the USA; no one would imply that Indonesia or Mexico aren't legitimate states.

The very congestion of the Palestinian protest is evidence that they know the IDF operates within stringent and identifiable patterns, even within the current reality of regular violence and confrontation. It would not surprise me if there weren't disciplinary action taken too. So don't even start with the Hague and UN warcrimes BS.

[shrek]

I heard it said once and I have to repeat it here becuase it's perfect;

If the Arab world is a football field then Israel is a matchbox in the middle of it. All the Arabs want is half of the matchbox. When do you say enough is enough. I think Israel has been saying it long enough.

[weedman]

Alright Weedman, I'll accept your argument that we are resposnible, whatever that ultimately means. But why do I get the feeling that for you or for the "left" in general, it gives you another fact to further a position that Israel isn't legitimate, or shouldn't exist because of its conflict with the "innocent" Palestinian Arabs? Had this occurred in a similar shape and form to Russia in Chechnya, Indonesia in Timor, Mexico in Chiapas, or the US in Iraq (as it did today) or Afghanistan, no one would call for the dismantling of the USA; no one would imply that Indonesia or Mexico aren't legitimate states.
You're right, I am "left" as you called it.

And I am also condeming similar situations, whereever they are (Iraq, Chechnya etc.).

But I makes me really sad to see such gerneral hatred against "Palis" in this forum.
Last year, we made an exchange with an Israeli class and it was a very positive experience for me to see many Isrealis who share same point of views and dislike the current political course.

[RomanS]

Murphy laws of war in action :( .Murphy or not, Israel is in my opinion completely responsible for what had happened.

Your opinions seem to suck a lot of turtle cocks lately! Plus not like anyone gives a **** about your opinions here.

[weedman]

Your opinions seem to suck a lot of turtle cocks lately! Plus not like anyone gives a **** about your opinions here.There was already a relativization, but sorry, of course you don't read whole threads but are seeking for new "flameable" stuff.

[RomanS]

Your opinions seem to suck a lot of turtle cocks lately! Plus not like anyone gives a **** about your opinions here.There was already a relativization, but sorry, of course you don't read whole threads but are seeking for new "flameable" stuff.

You talking about FLAMES???

oh my ...... search - "weedman flames" ... please wait, too many matches.

[Macs.]

PermskiiOMON you are ALWAYS flaming, thats nothing new.

Use your brain and post arguments, and don't just insult.

[He219]

http://www.seton.net.au/images/signs/signs/S6347.gif


http://cache.*****images.com/thumb/50856708.jpg?x=x&a=50856708&b=editorial&t=1
Enlarge (http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50856708.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=E2399169AC85D6DED1A89CAB57DE4F866F333CFD5500BD32)

RAFAH REFUGEE CAMP, GAZA STRIP - MAY 19: Unarmed Palestinians shout anti-Israeli military operation chants in Rafah refugee camp moments before Israeli forces fired a missile on the protest march, on May 19, 2004 at the Rafah refugee camp in southern Gaza Strip. Israeli forces killed at least ten Palestinians in an attack on a crowd of people in Rafah, Palestinian witnesses and medics said. (Photo by Johannes Abeling/***** Images)

Doesn't look like a Hamas rally to me ...
p-)

[Anastasius Focht]

That story sounds a bit questionable, because a detonation strong enough to ignite a RPG or handgrenade carried by someone is deadly for the carrier and everybody in range for that follow on explosion of grenades long before that. Agree?

And He219 pic shows ZERO of those weapons.

[Mark_Aspen]

I can't speak for everyone who hates the Palestinians, especially the non-Israelis. Why are their thoughts any more or less understandable than Arabs who've never met an Israeli, or Palestinian for that matter, yet automatically hate me and wish me "thrown into the sea." You've already made the point, there is an Israeli left, or opposition, or some grouping who might agree to accomodate the Arabs; who is there for them to talk with?

We didn't arrive in Gaza because we wanted to, and we've made our own situation more complicated than it should have been in 30+ years, but your sense of outrage doesn't move me; you don't apply universal standards.

[Javehn]

Doesn't look like a Hamas rally to me ...

This is the official information until now :
7 people were killed from the ralley , of them were child . From those 7 , 4 were armed . There is video confermation of it , and later IDF will release the tapes .

2)The helicopter fire was made far from the rally , as it seen on the map . There is video confermation .

3)There is new suspicion, that not the house was armed , but the road , and IDF intentionally bypassed this road by a circle move . One of the shell debriefes felt on the IED and detonated it .

[He219]

..your sense of outrage doesn't move me; you don't apply universal standards.
^ Totally agree with the lack of universal application of standards.

None of those shed a tear when insurgents fired 12 mortar rounds (http://editorial.*****images.com/source/CFW/imageResults.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState|0|15|0|1|5%2f20%2f2004|5%2f20%2f2003|0|0|0|0|1|attack+abu+ghraib&p=1) into Abu Ghraib, April 20, killing 22 and injuring 92....

:roll:

[Javehn]

Anastasia fuuck or Helex, whoever you are . What have you smoked today , idiot ??? Do you know how many people participating in this ralley ? Hundreds ? All of them inside the frame of the picture ? Your analizis of the picture is brilliant , now go take the red pill and wake up to the real world , son .

[IDFM203]

Doesn't look like a Hamas rally to me ...
p-)Just like that wedding party that your forces shot up and killed over 40 innocent civilians didn’t look like Iraqi fighters to me p-)


This is war, mistakes unfortunately happen, we did not purposely target civilians and like Javehn said, there are reports of armed gunman in the crowd (which of course you rarely see in the pics, but that’s for another topic)

So please, I can accept these kinds of posts from the usual’s, but I would like to hope for a little better from you :roll: ….at least till the facts come out!!

(Believe me I have a lot more this time around then the last time we had these types of discussions….you know what I am referring to ;) )

Shalom :D

[Anastasius Focht]

Anastasia fuuck or Helex, whoever you are . What have you smoked today , idiot ??? Do you know how many people participating in this ralley ? Hundreds ? All of them inside the frame of the picture ? Your analizis of the picture is brilliant , now go take the red pill and wake up to the real world , son .

Ever heard of probability? It is not very likely that all armed men of that rally were outside the Picture and all unarmed inside. rofl

And afaik 3000 people took part at that rally.

And haaretz doesnt speak of IED's or other "the palestinians are responsible themself" Stuff.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/429428.html

[Javehn]

Ever heard of probability? It is not very likely that all armed men of that rally were outside the Picture and all unarmed inside.


Ok ,i see someone has no idea what the hell he is talking about . You really stupid , aren't you ? How many people you count on HE picture ? Aren't you the one who talled not to drow conclussionsfrom the picture ? You are not very persistant . Let me tell you something from personall experice , thought i see this is not very considerable thing on this forum . On every single rally of this sort there is an armed people . Always. Read my text , always . It's just like the wedding stuff , it is the same with ralleys .
And you are the one that laughing at me ? Helex , not funny .


anyway , the point is still there , and i am sorry the post got flamed from it's original purpoce . This was very bad accident , and RIP to those who died there .

[Javehn]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=62692

Next time make a better search , Anastasia fistfucsk.
He219 , don't you think your remarks are a bit out of order , specialy due to what happened today in Iraq ? I didn't expected that kind of level from you .

[Anastasius Focht]

1. Im no Helex

2. Dont you think your position makes you a bit ....subjective.... ? Or would you say a Palestinian sees that what the IDF does very objective???
I have no reason to hate the Israelis or the Palestinians and from my poit of view both partys have the same low moral ground.

The IDF seems to have a lot of "accidents" with palestinian Children:


Statistics and numbers documented
September 28th, 2000 - April 14, 2004

Total Number of Palestinian deaths [1]: 2939

Number of Palestinian children killed [2]:
Number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli settlers [3]: 42
Number of Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling [4]: 535

Number of Palestinians killed as a result of occupation restrictions [5]: 133
Denied treatment or access to hospital: 68
Unclear circumstances: 65

Number of Palestinians assassinated [6]: 340
Number of targeted Palestinians: 188
Number of innocent bystanders killed during assassinations: 152
of whom childern: 35
of whom women: 25

Total Number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli troops [7]: 2490
Children: 558
Female: 134
Male: 1798

Number of Palestinian suicide bombers [8]: 158

Total Area Distribution of the dead [9]:
West Bank: 1315
Gaza: 1107
Jerusalem: 52
Inside Israel & abroad: 16
Unidentified locations:

Palestinians injured by Israeli forces and settlers [10]: 25146
Live ammunition: 6537
Rubber coated steel bullets: 5966
Tear gas: 5767
Miscellaneous: 6726

Number of Palestinians permanently disabled or maimed by injuries sustained from the Israeli military [11]:

Educational Statistics [12]:
Number of Palestinian students killed: 432
Number of Palestinian students injured: 3354
Number of Palestinian students in Israeli prisons: 542
Number of schools damaged by Israelis: 286

Below Figures Last Updated May 10, 2003

(Dunums= ¼ of an acre or 1000 meter square)
Number of dunums of Palestinian land confiscated by Israel [13]: 848155
Number of dunums of Palestinian land razed by Israel [14]: 18521
Number of trees uprooted: 227995
Palestinian Greenhouses destroyed: 475

Number of Palestinian homes completely destroyed or demolished [15]: 1162
Palestinians left homeless: 40415
Homes destroyed in W. Bank and east Jerusalem as a result of Israeli court orders: 1162





Sources:

The Palestinian Red Crescent Society
The Ministry of Health
The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS)
The World Bank and the International Management Group
Office of the United Nations Special Coordinator (UNSCO)
United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)
The Ministry of Education
The Palestinian Journalist Syndicate
Defense for International Children - Palestine Section
Ministry of Agriculture
PECDAR
Arij
UN Economic and Social Committee for Western Asia



http://www.jerusalemites.org/statistic.htm

[Javehn]

Please , don't get even there . Every case to it's body . Every thing has an explanation , but trust me i am not going to sit all night and write about it , i am waisting valueble time on the internet as it is .
So , what is your explanation ? We target them intentionaly ? Every single army in the world , in place like that would do exactly the same job , and even much worse (let's say we had German shipments of officers from time to time , and they had good solutions to the problem . You are German , no ? You would be surprised what would happend if Bundeswehr would take our places ) .
Anyway , look in the search button on the forum . I am tired to write same thing over and over again .

Anyway , you allready trie dto proove me wrong by bringing me news source. I brought you other source . I trying to convince me with things you have no first experience about , and the last and funniest you trying to conclude something from the pictures . Next time come prepared , school boy . Farshteist ?


And lastly , i have no intention to discust all the PA-Israel issue over again . I am adressing this subject alone . this is more then enough matterial on this forum about this matter .If you will continue to bring this up , i will just not answer it , simple as that . That's what you wanted now ? Suddenly when you prooved wrong you are starting to jump on other hourse ?? No go , pal , the work is not easy on you here. You are accusing someone of being murder , do you have any idea what is that like ?

[AirZone]

1. Im no Helex

2. Dont you think your position makes you a bit ....subjective.... ? Or would you say a Palestinian sees that what the IDF does very objective???
I have no reason to hate the Israelis or the Palestinians and from my poit of view both partys have the same low moral ground.

The IDF seems to have a lot of "accidents" with palestinian Children:


Statistics and numbers documented
September 28th, 2000 - April 14, 2004

Total Number of Palestinian deaths [1]: 2939

Number of Palestinian children killed [2]:
Number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli settlers [3]: 42
Number of Palestinians killed as a result of Israeli shelling [4]: 535

Number of Palestinians killed as a result of occupation restrictions [5]: 133
Denied treatment or access to hospital: 68
Unclear circumstances: 65

Number of Palestinians assassinated [6]: 340
Number of targeted Palestinians: 188
Number of innocent bystanders killed during assassinations: 152
of whom childern: 35
of whom women: 25

Total Number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli troops [7]: 2490
Children: 558
Female: 134
Male: 1798

Number of Palestinian suicide bombers [8]: 158

Total Area Distribution of the dead [9]:
West Bank: 1315
Gaza: 1107
Jerusalem: 52
Inside Israel & abroad: 16
Unidentified locations:

Palestinians injured by Israeli forces and settlers [10]: 25146
Live ammunition: 6537
Rubber coated steel bullets: 5966
Tear gas: 5767
Miscellaneous: 6726

Number of Palestinians permanently disabled or maimed by injuries sustained from the Israeli military [11]:

Educational Statistics [12]:
Number of Palestinian students killed: 432
Number of Palestinian students injured: 3354
Number of Palestinian students in Israeli prisons: 542
Number of schools damaged by Israelis: 286

Below Figures Last Updated May 10, 2003

(Dunums= ¼ of an acre or 1000 meter square)
Number of dunums of Palestinian land confiscated by Israel [13]: 848155
Number of dunums of Palestinian land razed by Israel [14]: 18521
Number of trees uprooted: 227995
Palestinian Greenhouses destroyed: 475

Number of Palestinian homes completely destroyed or demolished [15]: 1162
Palestinians left homeless: 40415
Homes destroyed in W. Bank and east Jerusalem as a result of Israeli court orders: 1162





Sources:

The Palestinian Red Crescent Society
The Ministry of Health
The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (PCBS)
The World Bank and the International Management Group
Office of the United Nations Special Coordinator (UNSCO)
United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)
The Ministry of Education
The Palestinian Journalist Syndicate
Defense for International Children - Palestine Section
Ministry of Agriculture
PECDAR
Arij
UN Economic and Social Committee for Western Asia



http://www.jerusalemites.org/statistic.htm And YOU should ask yourself why... but of course you dont care...

Javenh, WHY YOU GIVE A **** ? let the troll talk, im sure most of the people in here dont take any strange lookin pills and know that **** happens and its war... let him boil in his little hatred, yeah you dont hate us nor the palastines, sure...at least dont be like the UN and lie to us in the face.

Be a man and tell the truth, you dont like us.. you never liked us.. and why ? becuase we are jews of course :roll:


I always ask my self, why do they hammer us ? what do they get from this ? do they know how its to live in israel ? do they know how the army acts in side cities ? did they ever tried to find IDF videos about thier operations ? NO YOU DONT ! because you hate jews... you see some thing bad happens and you start to scream about how bad we are...
ffs stop with this ranting and let this forum be a MILITARYphotos forum and not howzionistsjewsusasucks forum.. theres plenty of them in the net

[weedman]

Please answer this question:

Do you think it is justified to kill Palestinian Children, when you think of the murder of several Israeli children and their pregnant mother?

[Javehn]

No .

That what i am trying to tell from the beggining of the post , idiot .

[RomanS]

Please answer this question:

Do you think it is justified to kill Palestinian Children, when you think of the murder of several Israeli children and their pregnant mother?
Do you tnink its a good way to make your point by blowing up bus stops, buses, cafes, nightclubs?

[weedman]

No .

That what i am trying to tell from the beggining of the post , idiot .Great, then I did not underrate you :D

So what do you think about fighting the reasons of the terror and not just the terror itself?

[hey]

weedma, someone said it's justified? every Israeli is sad about this incident and any other incident where innocent civilens are killed.

3 innocents died today, may them rest in peace. but you cant come and say that they died because of Israeli evilness.

[weedman]

weedma, someone said it's justified? every Israeli is sad about this incident and any other incident where innocent civilens are killed.Well, I just want to response to AirZones point to aks for the reasons these kids got killed.

[Javehn]

It's up the PA authority and not us. We just supply them with watter , eletricity and so on . They hate us , we can't help them . First Israeli with humanitarian aid in Gaza would be castrated and burned allive . It's allready happened , regular Israeli people who strayed from their way got killed there .

I would love to help them , they live in deep missory , but unfortunatly we can't . There is just to much hate for that . We give them watter , powe r, and work inside Israel , this has to do meanwhile , the rest of the work should be done inside PA , what is unfortunatly not going to happend in next century . :(

[AirZone]

Please answer this question:

Do you think it is justified to kill Palestinian Children, when you think of the murder of several Israeli children and their pregnant mother? Of course not... I never said that, I dont know any Israeli (Arb or Jew, I live in haifa and I know many arb kids, suprised ? :roll:) that will agree with that unless he's crazy (radical rightwing?) or just filled with hatred or he doesnt understand the conflict that much. Most of us just want quite and peace, but we wont sit and wait for the world to help us... we waited in WWII and nothing happend (and before that) and some times in WARZONE civilans get killed...I saw the pics and I really felt bad...becuase I know the pain, I lost people I know in Kav37 bus that blowed up in Haifa (both arbs and jews died in there) from my school...but when a terrorists dies or some one who's a living shield I do not shed a tear...I dont know what really happend there guess we will have to wait, but for now I feel sorry for the kids, dying so young like my friends did. Also, I feel sorry that a generation is raised because of hatred towards us and we can do nothing to stop it because if we wont do what we are doing right now in there...I afriad cafes will blow up, resturands, buses, night clubs, mauls... like it was before IDF/Shabaq started to kill all the terrorists...I think im saying what any other Israel in this forum feels... we are tired from this, we never wanted it to be like that, but we are not going to do nothing...and if it means flatting 4 and a half houses we will do it (only 4.5, not 20,000 :roll: like some one said in the news or it was palastines offical)

[Anastasius Focht]

Im interested in a Statistic on how many Israelis have been killed by Palestinian activitys between September 28th, 2000 - April 14, 2004

Would be somewhat informative.

And may I ask you some Questions:

Do you think the palestinians see themself on the side of rightfulness and they are justifying all questionable actions by that? And do you think because you are the "good" and the Palestinians "evil" the IDF is alway right no matter what they are doing?

And why did recently some IDF Pilots, the elite and among them one of those men who destroyed the Iraqi nuclear powerplant, think they were probably not doing the right thing.....?

[Javehn]

Go away , morron . Find the answers yourself .