A German soldier tortures no one

[He219]

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,87186_6,00.jpg
Wolffsohn -- instructor in Munich at one of Germany's top two military officer training schools -- attracted controversy earlier this month when he told a German television reporter that "if we attempt to counter terror with gentlemanly methods, we will fail."

German Professor Under Fire (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1201346_1_A,00.html)


Referring to the excesses at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, he said, "In the anti-terror fight there are really no effective laws of war. I believe that torture, or the threat of torture, is legitimate as one of the instruments against terror, because terror basically… has nothing to do with our civilized order."

However, Wolffsohn said that the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "has gone too far." He later said his remarks were a "scientific-theoretical reflection" and that he did condemn torture.

On Wednesday, Struck was at pains to make clear that the country's military establishment did not share Wolffsohn's controversial views.

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen," he added.

Germany's stringent postwar military training rules force soldiers to take responsibility for their actions, reflecting lessons drawn from the Nazi era. Struck said he was confident that German soldiers, who are deployed in peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and Afghanistan, would never mistreat prisoners.

"I can rule that out because our soldiers -- even the ones who only do nine months' compulsory service -- learn during their training that they must not follow illegal orders." The minister added, "It would be an illegal order if anyone were to demand that prisoners be treated in the way that we have, for example, seen in the pictures from Iraq."

Struck said he had ordered a meeting with Wolffsohn to determine whether the professor was instructing his students in a manner consistent with the German constitution.

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,33248_6,00.jpg
"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

[weedman]

This is a difficult question.

On the one hand, I appreciate the freedom of speech, but on the other hand, I think that a person in such a postion should never ever talk such unconstitutional and unlawful things, espacially in the public. So, as I said, I'm not sure what to think about this.

[Retard]

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/images/theb2930.jpg

[weedman]

Retard, little hint for you: We are talking about the postwar time. :)

[mack pl]

Retard,it was 60 years ago :| Germans soldiers are different now(I hope) ;) :|

[Marsuitor]

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,87186_6,00.jpg
Wolffsohn -- instructor in Munich at one of Germany's top two military officer training schools -- attracted controversy earlier this month when he told a German television reporter that "if we attempt to counter terror with gentlemanly methods, we will fail."

German Professor Under Fire (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1201346_1_A,00.html)


Referring to the excesses at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, he said, "In the anti-terror fight there are really no effective laws of war. I believe that torture, or the threat of torture, is legitimate as one of the instruments against terror, because terror basically… has nothing to do with our civilized order."

However, Wolffsohn said that the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "has gone too far." He later said his remarks were a "scientific-theoretical reflection" and that he did condemn torture.

On Wednesday, Struck was at pains to make clear that the country's military establishment did not share Wolffsohn's controversial views.

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen," he added.

Germany's stringent postwar military training rules force soldiers to take responsibility for their actions, reflecting lessons drawn from the Nazi era. Struck said he was confident that German soldiers, who are deployed in peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and Afghanistan, would never mistreat prisoners.

"I can rule that out because our soldiers -- even the ones who only do nine months' compulsory service -- learn during their training that they must not follow illegal orders." The minister added, "It would be an illegal order if anyone were to demand that prisoners be treated in the way that we have, for example, seen in the pictures from Iraq."

Struck said he had ordered a meeting with Wolffsohn to determine whether the professor was instructing his students in a manner consistent with the German constitution.

http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,33248_6,00.jpg
"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

Retard,
Contained within the above post was this:

Germany's stringent postwar military training rules force soldiers to take responsibility for their actions, reflecting lessons drawn from the Nazi era. Struck said he was confident that German soldiers, who are deployed in peacekeeping missions in the Balkans and Afghanistan, would never mistreat prisoners.

Please don't be an idiot.

[Argyll]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/germ-j31.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/aug2003/colo-a16.shtml

http://eurodos.chez.tiscali.fr/docu/texts/ai-germany-2002.html


Seems their Police don't adhere to this chain of thought!

[catdat]

hmm... I guess skins don't get drafted in Germany anymore. He's suggesting there are no "bad eggs" in his Army? Or is he suggesting they are much more disciplined than the US Army?

I personally have not seen any sado-masochistic german soldiers and I served with a lot of them. I've never seen any American ones either.

Sado Masochistic MPs? In every Army I bet.

[EvanL]

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/images/theb2930.jpg
Like your name says.
Need i say more?
We are aware oif the horrors that the Nazis committed. And we shouldnt forget that. But Germany is not that type of country anymore, and there is no sense relating that.
Retard

[Obergefreiter]

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/images/theb2930.jpg

Not funny. :fork:

[weedman]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/germ-j31.shtml

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/aug2003/colo-a16.shtml

http://eurodos.chez.tiscali.fr/docu/texts/ai-germany-2002.html
That was a shame, but there were serious consequences for this incident, which was also an individual case.

[Trigger]

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/images/theb2930.jpg
Like your name says.
Need i say more?
We are aware oif the horrors that the Nazis committed. And we shouldnt forget that. But Germany is not that type of country anymore, and there is no sense relating that.
Retard

Does this mean that Americans on this forum will no longer be subjected to cries of 'what about My Lai' or 'What about the slaughter of the native Americans' or the other old standby: 'But you firebombed Dresden'?

Works for me. ;)

[EvanL]

"A German soldier tortures no one," Struck (photo) said during a television talk show on the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. "I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans," he added.

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/images/theb2930.jpg
Like your name says.
Need i say more?
We are aware oif the horrors that the Nazis committed. And we shouldnt forget that. But Germany is not that type of country anymore, and there is no sense relating that.
Retard

Does this mean that Americans on this forum will no longer be subjected to cries of 'what about My Lai' or 'What about the slaughter of the native Americans' or the other old standby: 'But you firebombed Dresden'?

Works for me. ;)
Ive never done that anyways

[mack pl]

Ok,so this thread could be the best place for all ppl who likes flame wars and history ;) So, you dirty germans nazis etc. etc. etc...bla bla bla.......... ;)

[weedman]

Does this mean that Americans on this forum will no longer be subjected to cries of 'what about My Lai' or 'What about the slaughter of the native Americans' or the other old standby: 'But you firebombed Dresden'?
You're kidding?

Struck just made a statement about the circumstances in the postwar era, not more, not less.

[mack pl]

Does this mean that Americans on this forum will no longer be subjected to cries of 'what about My Lai' or 'What about the slaughter of the native Americans' or the other old standby: 'But you firebombed Dresden'?
You're kidding?

Struck just made a statement about the circumstances in the postwar era, not more, not less.yeah sure ;) ....nah,just kidding ;) :lol:

[Trigger]

Calm down. I was just making a joke about what EvanLloyd posted. :cantbeli:

[Kitsune]

Struck is a damn idiot for making comments like this. :slap:
(I make stupid comments, too, from time to time. But I can afford it. p-) ).

We have a discussion going on a German site about another comment of Strucks, that conscription would "protect" the German armed forces against...aehem...torture impulses. :roll:
Well, someone mentioned the Milgram experiment and the Stanford-Prisoner Experiment then, which undermine the idea that "normal people" (like conscripts) are in no way immune to such a kind of behaviour.
Also the Milgram experiment showed that this goes for people of all countries (well, at least the experiment was repeated in a lot of countries and the differences were not significant).

Conclusion: A German, even a conscript, is as ****e to do or not to do things like happened in Abu Ghraib as people of other democratic countries. It's the leadership that has to see that something like this does not happen.
One thing is certain though: The German Armed Forces have a special responsibility not to let torture or abuse happen.
And Germany cannot afford it either. With our past we would not so easy be forgiven like the Americans, who have a lot of goodwill with other nations they can use up.

[He219]

Struck just made a statement about the circumstances in the postwar era, not more, not less.

What buggs me is the 'never' part ...


"I am firmly convinced that even a young and not particularly educated soldier would never do what we have seen from the Americans"

... seems chauvinistic and self-assured to me.

[weedman]

Struck is a damn idiot for making comments like this. :slap: Had also said:

Deutschland wird auch am Hindukusch verteidigt.

(Germany is being defended also at the Hindukush.)

What a rubbish.... :bash:

[Retard]

Well, someone mentioned the Milgram experiment and the Stanford-Prisoner Experiment then, which undermine the idea that "normal people" (like conscripts) are no way immune to such a kind of behaviour.
Also the Milgram experiment showed that this goes for people of all countries (well, at least the experiment was repeated in a lot of countries and the differences were not significant).

That was the point I was trying to make. never say never.

Even nazi commie pinko pigs can do bad things :P

[Shadow]

Nazi and Commie are 2 conflicting words Retard.:D

Well, he is SPD, vote CDU!:P;)

[Caribou Kid]

That was a cheap shot, Retard.

Why don't you go back and sit on your little chair facing into the corner again, like the naughty child you are, there's a good little boy. :backhand:

It was blindingly obvious that he meant 21st Century Germany, dude.
DUH! HELLO!!! This is the Internet, remember, not carrier pigeons and singing telegrams. Get with the program already, Retard. You live in yesterday.
Loser.

[weedman]

Nazi and Commie are 2 conflicting word Retard.:D
Not for some illiterate guys up in here :roll:

[stuntman]

This is a difficult question.

On the one hand, I appreciate the freedom of speech, but on the other hand, I think that a person in such a postion should never ever talk such unconstitutional and unlawful things, espacially in the public. So, as I said, I'm not sure what to think about this.

What do you mean by this?

[weedman]

This is a difficult question.

On the one hand, I appreciate the freedom of speech, but on the other hand, I think that a person in such a postion should never ever talk such unconstitutional and unlawful things, espacially in the public. So, as I said, I'm not sure what to think about this.

What do you mean by this?Torture is against our constitution (the so-called Grundgesetz) and several other international laws.

[stuntman]

Oh ok thx!

[Retard]

The world will never let the holocaust happen again. The world would rise up & stop it.

Rwanda 1994:
http://www.gendercide.org/images/pics/rwanda204.jpg

Are we (the whole world) any better than we were 10 years ago?