House Passes Ban On Waterboarding, but blocks 70% of Intel Funding

[Zoomie]

(AP) The House of Representatives on Thursday approved an intelligence bill that bans the Central Intelligence Agency from using waterboarding, mock executions and other harsh interrogation methods.

The 222-199 vote sent the measure to the Senate, which still must act before it can go to President Bush. The White House has threatened a veto.

The bill, a House-Senate compromise to authorize intelligence operations in 2008, also blocks spending 70 percent of the intelligence budget until the House and Senate intelligence committees are briefed on Israel's Sept. 6 air strike on an alleged nuclear site in Syria.

The 2008 intelligence budget is classified, but it is more than the $43 billion approved for 2007.

Most of the bill itself also is classified, although some portions were made public. One provision requires reporting to the committees on whether intelligence agency employees are complying with protections for detainees from cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment. Another requires a report on the use of private contractors in intelligence work.

It is the first intelligence authorization conference bill Congress has produced in three years.

The White House threatened to veto the measure this week in a lengthy statement, highlighting more than 11 areas of disagreement with the bill.

The administration particularly opposes restricting the CIA to interrogation methods approved by the U.S. military in 2006. That document prohibits forcing detainees to be naked, perform ****** acts, or pose in a ****** manner; placing hoods or sacks over detainees' heads or duct tape over their eyes; beating, shocking, or burning detainees; threatening them with military dogs; exposing them to extreme heat or cold; conducting mock executions; depriving them of food, water, or medical care; and waterboarding.

Waterboarding is a particularly harsh form of interrogation that involves strapping down a prisoner, covering his mouth with plastic or cloth and pouring water over his face. The prisoner quickly begins to inhale water, causing the sensation of drowning.

The CIA is known to have waterboarded three prisoners but has not used the technique since 2003, according to a government official familiar with the program who spoke on condition of anonymity because the information is classified. CIA Director Michael Hayden prohibited waterboarding in 2006. The U.S. military outlawed it the same year.

The intelligence authorization bill also creates a new internal watchdog to oversee all the intelligence agencies. It requires Senate approval for the first time of two agency heads the National Reconnaissance Office, which manages the nation's spy satellites, and the National Security Agency, the outfit that conducted warrantless wiretapping on American phone and computer lines in what the White House calls the Terrorist Surveillance Program.

Separately on Thursday, the Senate Judiciary Committee rejected legislation that would have protected telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits over helping the government eavesdrop on Americans' communications without court orders. The legislation would have made the government the defendant in such lawsuits, rather than telecommunications companies. The 5-13 vote sank the measure pushed by Sen. Arlen Specter, a Republican who hoped it could be a compromise in the dispute over whether to immunize the companies from lawsuits.

In competing legislation written in October, the Senate Intelligence Committee granted legal immunity to telecom companies. The House passed a bill that does not protect the companies. The White House has also threatened to veto that bill.

Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell was briefing the Senate in a closed session about the matter on Thursday.
Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/13/national/main3616832.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3616832)
Yeah, what were those outcries in the past about not having enough intel for anything? Oh, who cares, let's shoot ourselves in the foot. :cantbeli:

[Invisigoth]

Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/13/national/main3616832.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3616832)
Yeah, what were those outcries in the past about not having enough intel for anything? Oh, who cares, let's shoot ourselves in the foot. :cantbeli:

Hm, the 70% is dependent on a briefing for the intelligence committees of your legislature? You make it sound as though they had just cut the the budget for the next decade in half...

[SOG]

oh cool, now we will get the forced version of events finally made public. this oughta be good. brace for the 1000 "were going to invade syria bush devil" posts!

[duhblow7]

Keeping that veto pen within reach, Mr. President?

[WarriorMonk]

oh cool, now we will get the forced version of events finally made public. this oughta be good. brace for the 1000 "were going to invade syria bush devil" posts!

were going to invade syria bush devil

fnar.

(sarcasm)

[Mastermind]

If the congress reduced the intel budget to three dollars and fifty cents, I think we would then, at last, be getting our money's worth. Stupid ba5tard5

[Skutatos]

I think congress should reduce their own budget, stupid worthless bastards.

[JKD]

So Congress' intelligence commitees are wanting to be briefed on...intelligence? Wow. The nerve.

[ViktorNavorski]

So Congress' intelligence commitees are wanting to be briefed on...intelligence? Wow. The nerve.And if the the incident involving the destroyed CIA tapes is any indication, the committee will come back a few months later with something like, "Holy crap! Israel bombed Syria! why didn't we know about it..."

[Chulo]

And if the the incident involving the destroyed CIA tapes is any indication, the committee will come back a few months later with something like, "Holy crap! Israel bombed Syria! why didn't we know about it..."
that CIA tape issue is bullcrap.. just congress trying to act like they are doing something, but actually just shooting itself in the foot

[budgie]

Keeping that veto pen within reach, Mr. President?


Yep it's right next to his head. However he's been keeping that in a rather dark and cramped place these days...

[eskachig]

that CIA tape issue is bullcrap.. just congress trying to act like they are doing something, but actually just shooting itself in the footExplain please. Do you think that CIA was right to destroy the tapes? In my opinion, few things they could have done could be more provocotive.

[Sloppy Joe2]

So Congress' intelligence commitees are wanting to be briefed on...intelligence? Wow. The nerve. the irony


Explain please. Do you think that CIA was right to destroy the tapes? In my opinion, few things they could have done could be more provocotive. are they legally bond to keep them?

[jetsetter]

They were the ones who decided to make the takes in the first place. It was within their rights to do whatever they wanted with them. My only regret is that they were not kept more secret.

[Mastermind]

It is just a strom in a teapot. The dems are desperate right now. Thier presidential campaigners are demonstrating daily that none of them are presidential material in the minds of the voters. Their front runner, Hersefness, is completely incapable of handling herself in a real debate and such is coming right at her eventually where she will ultimately crater...leaving Barak Hussein Obama....oh, Hannah!

The Dem congress is not just bad, it is abysmal with the lowest rating any US congress has ever had. Voters are sick to death of their whiney, childish shenanigans. Nacy P is so wrapped up in her own echo chamber she has no idea what the real world is doing...and Harry Reid is so dumb it's a miracle he can figure out how to shave in the mornings.

thus we have these "See Bush? See how stupid he is? See Bush? See how befuddled he is?" maneuvers. They are so stale now...and Bush is increasingly irrelevant to any election process. The desperation hope is that the voters will be sickened of a Republican administration...not just Bush. But, the dem game is not working. Voters really are not as stupid as the Dems think and most can see right through the dog and pny show or, they don't make the connection, since the dems have bashed Bush so much, the voters are now immune....Saying Bush is bad is now like saying salt is salty.

This "waterboarding tape" issue is just more flash and mirrors...desigend to distract people , suck up head line space and distract the voters from real issues the dems just can not face right now.

[hell]

are they legally bond to keep them?

Yes, they are. Due to several pending federal court cases, information involving the 9/11 commision, and FOIA inquiries, they were legally bound to preserve them. They are talking of refusing to speak in front of Congress because even admitting to the destruction of the tapes, and who destroyed them, who ordered that they be destroyed, etc, could easily bring about contempt of court charges for said people.

[Mastermind]

I would simply deny the tapes ever existed, the event ever happened...put the squeeler on the spot.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Yes, they are. Due to several pending federal court cases, information involving the 9/11 commision, and FOIA inquiries, they were legally bound to preserve them. They are talking of refusing to speak in front of Congress because even admitting to the destruction of the tapes, and who destroyed them, who ordered that they be destroyed, etc, could easily bring about contempt of court charges for said people.
well that question seems to be up to a lot of discussion, on both sides.

now if you or anyone can show a memo or policy letter showing so, i will apoligize and step back but there doesnt seem to be one.

[WARPIG]

From IBD editorials. Ramirez is the scheet.

[JKD]

From IBD editorials. Ramirez is the scheet.

9/11 happened because we didn't torture anyone?

Beowulf's posted this link in a couple of threads. I would recommend it to all the torture fans out there:
http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/

[Mastermind]

So, okay...torture, defined as we "civilized' people have come to "understand' it does not work. However, I suggest, as a combat veteran of Viet Nam, and watching torture techniques that would curl Hitler's hair, that torture, when used in the proper overall system, works with practical perfection.

We are all thinking of torture on a one-on-one basis and used in a very limited sense, mainly, in regard to a single question, over the term of a single torture event. That is not at all how real torturers work...not when they are actually looking for strategic truthful information. The kind of torture we are so far debating is actually much more related to the "police vs the uncooperative drunk jackass" where a TASER is used to gain absolute compliance....that is torture, no matter how else you define it...cops are allowed to torture their suspects...tear gas is a torture device...it inflicts pain and assure compliance.

But, the proficient torturer, using very well proven techniques can gain compliance in interrogation and do it repeatedly with very accurate results, so long as he (or she) does not lose their professionalism. This kind of torture is barbaric in the extreme, has no association with conscience, and uproots the very soul of the victim. Before the session is completed, I don't care how tough you think you are or how dedicated you are to self sacrifice for your cause, the subject will tell you exactly the information you want if he or she has it. They will tell you precisely where their mother is, their babies are and where the keys are to the national vault if that is the object of the interrogation.

This statement of mine above is going to be doubted. I understand, there are great segements of historical data that absolutely prove, "Torture.Does.Not.Work!" People with exhaustive backgrounds in torture and human psychology will tell me I am way, way off base. They are not even discussing the same kind of subject I am when they talk about individual torture sessions on a limited basis...I am talking about reducing human beings to the level of a cockroach and getting their 120% compliance in a very short time.

People who have been there and done that know exactly what I am talking about.

[eskachig]

Yay for forum necromancy.

I don't think that too many people will disagree with you on practical details, but for a lot of us it is unthinkable to live under a government that endorses those methods.

[IMTT]

By the way the US Navy uses waterboarding as part of training designated personnel as others as part of SERE school in Warner springs Ca. This is and has been a standard practice for many years to prepare personnel in case of being held captive. In several other US SERE schools "smoking" is used as well as water boarding. Since the out cry about this how many EU countries or any countries to include their countries of origin have come forward to take these down trodden poor innocent men? BOO HOO Cry me a river, fvgking please... Our elected corrupt officials pose as saviors deny knowledge and assess blame, how predictable! Of course lets not forget spending big money while doing it. I just wonder what will King Obama and his cast of clowns will do when these rightous "freedom fighters" return and take revenge on the evil west? Here let me answer that real qwick; NOTHING, NADA EXACTO MUNDO BABY!

[IMTT]

"We are all thinking of torture on a one-on-one basis and used in a very limited sense, mainly, in regard to a single question, over the term of a single torture event. That is not at all how real torturers work...not when they are actually looking for strategic truthful information. The kind of torture we are so far debating is actually much more related to the "police vs the uncooperative drunk jackass" where a TASER is used to gain absolute compliance....that is torture, no matter how else you define it...cops are allowed to torture their suspects...tear gas is a torture device...it inflicts pain and assure compliance."

I must have missed the point here somewhere or misread this. I don't mean to split hairs and I could be wrong entirely. I don't mean to sound stupid and lame here, let me get this straight you believe that cops torture their suspects, ummm in the United states? Sorry I must be reading this wrong couldn't be right.

[FAI]

From IBD editorials. Ramirez is the scheet.

Curious, who do you think the people you should have tortured to prevent 9/11 attacks?

[Midav]

So, okay...torture, defined as we "civilized' people have come to "understand' it does not work. However, I suggest, as a combat veteran of Viet Nam, and watching torture techniques that would curl Hitler's hair, that torture, when used in the proper overall system, works with practical perfection.....

.....This statement of mine above is going to be doubted. I understand, there are great segements of historical data that absolutely prove, "Torture.Does.Not.Work!" People with exhaustive backgrounds in torture and human psychology will tell me I am way, way off base. They are not even discussing the same kind of subject I am when they talk about individual torture sessions on a limited basis...I am talking about reducing human beings to the level of a cockroach and getting their 120% compliance in a very short time.

People who have been there and done that know exactly what I am talking about.

Good post and I agree! We TASER people at work to comply. We use pressure points for them to comply. We gang up on them to comply. We "threaten" them to comply... and so on and so forth.

There is a time and place for everything as to what we perceive to be good and bad. There's no other way to function. It's hard to explain. Sometimes ya gotta be a ****. We can try and be good and virtuous but there is a limit.

If you're always 100% good, people will take advantage of that. They will see it as a weakness.

If you're always bad and evil, people will see it as a weakness.

You need to have a balance. Humanity runs on twigs... I think some people will understand what I'm saying...

[Mastermind]

"We are all thinking of torture on a one-on-one basis and used in a very limited sense, mainly, in regard to a single question, over the term of a single torture event. That is not at all how real torturers work...not when they are actually looking for strategic truthful information. The kind of torture we are so far debating is actually much more related to the "police vs the uncooperative drunk jackass" where a TASER is used to gain absolute compliance....that is torture, no matter how else you define it...cops are allowed to torture their suspects...tear gas is a torture device...it inflicts pain and assure compliance."

I must have missed the point here somewhere or misread this. I don't mean to split hairs and I could be wrong entirely. I don't mean to sound stupid and lame here, let me get this straight you believe that cops torture their suspects, ummm in the United states? Sorry I must be reading this wrong couldn't be right.
:)...Well, hell Yeah they torture their suspects....Have you ever been TASERed? How about pepperballed? I had a cop grab me one time with a compliance hold for real...like an idiot, I wanted to find out what our prisoners were getting at the receiving end...Jeezus H Kreist! He nearly ripped my arm off...that's what it felt like.

My whole family has been in some form of law enforcement for the last 100 years. I have intimate conversations..very truthful conversations with them and their friends and have for all my life...if you really think cops are not just ordinary people with the same likes and dislikes and petty feelings and gorss prejudices...yer not correct. Cops can and do take perverse pleasure in useing every means at their disposal to get compliance...and if it happens to be some dirty little punk who has "systemed" the system on them one toomany times, let me tell you...they go right to the max allowable by law...and truth is, Fumanchu could not inflict more pain than cops can and do when they get the chance to.

Oh, in court and in public and so forth, the cops are all the spitting image of Mr. and Ms. goody-two-shoes. But, in the locker room, alone in the squad, and at the bar, they tell it like it really is. Once in a while, you get to see the real cops in action on covert video...Rodny King being, of course, the most famous. Yes! Cops torture people...and sometimes, they do it more for fun and payback than they do for business.

I knew two cops (partners) once who were famous for exacting serious and markless revenge on people who gave them hard times. They went through their entire careers without a single proven event...and some of their victims had bruises, cuts, gashes, and even burns where these two jokers had taken out their frustrations....and they got clean away with it. No, not in the thirties and forties...in the 80s and 90s!! And today is not one bit different.

[Skutatos]

if you really think cops are not just ordinary people with the same likes and dislikes and petty feelings and gorss prejudices...yer not correct. Cops can and do take perverse pleasure in useing every means at their disposal to get compliance...and if it happens to be some dirty little punk who has "systemed" the system on them one toomany times, let me tell you...they go right to the max allowable by law...and truth is, Fumanchu could not inflict more pain than cops can and do when they get the chance to.



I have a friend who's dad is a police officer...and I gotta agree with you here. Some of his stories are...interesting...to say the least.

Disclaimer: I don't give a **** what the cops want to do to some piece of **** street urchin, wife beater, murderer, rapist, etc...more power to them.

[eskachig]

Disclaimer: I don't give a **** what the cops want to do to some piece of **** street urchin, wife beater, murderer, rapist, etc...more power to them.A most short sighted viewpoint, and I guarantee that you would not enjoy the culture resulting from its widespread application. Also, did you really equate youth homelessness to murder? Wow.

[IMTT]

Well I have read your response and I must say I'm little confused. Torturing citizens with a taser, a pepper-ball gun, OC, impact weapons or phyiscal control holds is illegal and will result in criminal prosecution. If you have relatives that have bragged about these things then ask them to repeat those cool stories in front of some IA bottom feeder parasite rat investigator. This behavior happens however to be illegal. BTW; Rodney had that azz whipping coming in my opinion! That wasn't torture that was a criminal who didn't comply and continued to resist. I agreed with the Simi valley verdict not the Downtown LA Federal verdict. The same federal prosectutor that refused to go after OJ by the way.

Torture to me is cutting off a guys arm off with a axe, blowing off his hand with det-cord while his friends watch, hooking him up to a field phone on his ********s and lighting him up, then extracting information from the scrubbs standing by witnessing for fear of the same. Throwing a guy out of a chopper into a valcano while his friend on board sings like a bird to tell you everything you want to know. Ripping off a guys nose with channel locks or setting a peice of the body on fire while asking drect questions. That is torture... Denying a guy sleep, making him believe he is drowning or any other ruse short of physical disfigurement and or killing him is all in the game to me. I fully support it and expect it if you want hardened terrorists (who practice and train for "resistance" methods) to tell when and where they intend on killing innocent humans. Anything less is a waste of time and little more than taking space in our facilites and courts. I also know what awaits me if held captive by the enemy in the Saracen lands. Shoot on sight and give no quarter at once. When engaged with the enemy provide them no opportunity to surrender or escape. Shoot them down like dogs. This candy coated approach to fighting the enemy / terrorist invites more attacks. It is 8 years ago that we on American soil were attacked by these heathen savages. We have forgotten and choose to walk away from the task at hand. I'm told that our DA assests are beginning to mirandize suspect terrorists when taking them into custody. They are treating them as criminal suspects and not as enemy combatants. This has been told to me personally on at least three occasions and different sources over the last two months.

I wonder what this coward Obama (no experience, no background and no spine) will do when they attack again and kill our innocent citizens on US soil. Perhaps he can go back to the EU, make friends and they all can eat together while he apologizes for our bad conduct causing another attack. While we have US forces in every other place the EU and their friends need us that have no US interest.

[XShipRider]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3643/3313286473_211c61389c.jpg?v=0

“And now, your highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base...” ~Darth Vader

I do find it interesting, former VP Cheney calls for the release of memos which President Obama does not allow. It implies the methods worked, but we may not know until the memos are eventually released.

[IMTT]

These liberal bed wetters are too busy throwing mud instead of protecting our nation against foriegn enemies. The election is over, get on with the work at hand, shut up and show me what you got!

[Mastermind]

These liberal bed wetters are too busy throwing mud instead of protecting our nation against foriegn enemies. The election is over, get on with the work at hand, shut up and show me what you got!

hahahha,,,probably not gonna happen any time soon...probably never.