China taps into U.S. spy operations

[I can't think of a name]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071221/NATION/676409066/1001



China taps into U.S. spy operations

By Bill Gertz
December 21, 2007
China's intelligence service gained access to a secret National Security Agency listening post in Hawaii through a Chinese-language translation service, according to U.S. intelligence officials.

The spy penetration was discovered several years ago as part of a major counterintelligence probe by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) that revealed an extensive program by China's spy service to steal codes and other electronic intelligence secrets, and to recruit military and civilian personnel with access to them.

According to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity, China's Ministry of State Security, the main civilian spy service, carried out the operations by setting up a Chinese translation service in Hawaii that represented itself as a U.S.-origin company.

The ruse led to classified contracts with the Navy and NSA to translate some of the hundreds of thousands of intercepted communications gathered by NSA's network of listening posts, aircraft and ships.

NCIS agents discovered that the translation service, which officials did not identify by name, had conducted contract work for the National Security Agency facility at Kunia, an underground electronic intelligence post some 15 miles northwest of Honolulu that conducts some of the U.S. intelligence community's most sensitive work.

Kunia is both a processing center and a collection point for large amounts of Chinese- and other Asian-language communications, which are translated and used in classified intelligence reports on military and political developments.

Naval intelligence officials familiar with the Chinese spy penetration said the access to both "raw" and analyzed intelligence at Kunia caused significant damage by giving China's government details on both the targets and the sources of U.S. spying operations. Such information would permit the Chinese to block the eavesdropping or to provide false and misleading "disinformation" to U.S. intelligence.

The officials did not say how long the Chinese operation lasted before being detected.



NCIS also discovered a major Chinese intelligence operation that sought to recruit Chinese Americans as spies, and to recruit Navy and civilian intelligence workers with access to Kunia's secrets.

According to the officials, China's program to recruit intelligence workers was discovered in 2005 after a Navy cryptographic technician was caught accepting a no-cost visit to China, paid for by Beijing's government.

The case led to an NCIS probe that discovered other intelligence personnel, many of them nearing the ends of their careers, who were targeted by Chinese intelligence for recruitment.

The ethnic recruitment effort involved similar tactics. China's intelligence service used intelligence officers and supporters to identify Chinese Americans with access to secrets who would be approached and offered free visits to China, often to meet relatives. The Chinese would then use the visit to attempt to recruit the Americans as spies.

Chinese-American ethnic groups in the past have denounced the U.S. government for singling out Asian Americans as spy targets, accusing counterintelligence officials of racism. But the Chinese recruitment program shows that Beijing actively seeks to develop spies through such ethnic targeting.

NSA and NCIS spokesmen declined to comment when asked about the Chinese intelligence-gathering operations in Hawaii.

I.C. Smith, a former FBI special agent, said both China's civilian MSS and military spy service, known as "2 PLA" for the Second Department of the Chinese military, are targeting NSA.

"There can be no higher target for an intelligence service, and that includes China's MSS and 2 PLA, than gaining access to an adversaries' codes and electronic intelligence," he said, because it is the ultimate in "foreknowledge" advocated by ancient Chinese strategist Sun Tzu.

Getting U.S. electronic intelligence and codes would give China specific information on what is known and allow Beijing to take defensive measures "based on knowledge, not supposition," Mr. Smith said, adding that "it also allows for disinformation to be done with confidence and it basically gives the intelligence service every advantage over the enemy."

The NSA Hawaii operations center employs several thousand people and was recently expanded at a cost of more than $350 million. An NSA press release in August stated the expansion is "one facet of the agency's efforts to evolve a global cryptologic enterprise that is resilient, agile and effective in prosecuting a dynamic threat environment."

The facility was singled out for criticism in the past by intelligence reform advocates because of its restrictive policies on information-sharing.
There is no intelligence in US intelligence.

Well for one, note how ethnic Chinese were targeted and acquired as spies, just like the Lebanese who were recently spying for Hezzbollah.

Second, no one is taking China seriously. With the USSR we had an embargo and people learning Russian meant big career moves in intelligence. It seems like only China is aggressively going after results.

[Ordie]

Perhaps we (USA) should invest more in Chinese immersion classes at the elementary school level.

[usm2b]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071221/NATION/676409066/1001

There is no intelligence in US intelligence.

Well for one, note how ethnic Chinese were targeted and acquired as spies, just like the Lebanese who were recently spying for Hezzbollah.

Second, no one is taking China seriously. With the USSR we had an embargo and people learning Russian meant big career moves in intelligence. It seems like only China is aggressively going after results.

I agree...we need to be taking China seriously. And you may be right...but do you really think that we are publicly posting our espionage and intelligence successes against China?

[Power_serj]

What do you mean there is no intelligence in U.S intelligence? Apparently there is, since the Chinese were caught spying.

[SOG]

Second, no one is taking China seriously.

we don't know what our intel agencies are doing. it's hard to judge the priorities of how many various agencies? even if some people in certain circles think we arent, do they know what everyone is doing?


It seems like only China is aggressively going after results.

well, there was that situation with the US navy EP-3. i'd say that was the US going after results.


China's Spying Overwhelms U.S. Counterintelligence (Update2)

By Jeff Bliss
Enlarge Image/Details

April 2 (Bloomberg) -- In a Santa Ana, California, courtroom, 66-year-old engineer Chi Mak listens to federal prosecutors describe how he and his family stole secrets from his employer, L-3 Communications Holdings Inc. The alleged target: data about Navy submarine engines that run silently to avoid detection.

U.S. intelligence officials say the Mak case is unusual -- not in the nature of the charges brought against him, but that charges were brought at all.

For every person caught and accused of passing U.S. military and trade secrets to China, they say, scores of others go undetected. Taking advantage of an outmanned counterintelligence effort drained and distracted by the wars in Iraq and against al-Qaeda, current and former officials say, China has systematically managed to gain sensitive information on U.S. nuclear bombs and ship and missile designs.

``Iraq and the struggle with terrorism are sucking resources across the board,'' says Joel Brenner, the top counterintelligence official in the office of Director of National Intelligence Michael McConnell. Meanwhile, ``the Chinese are really making a run at us.''

Adds Keith Riggin, a former senior official at the Central Intelligence Agency who focused on China issues: ``If the American people knew the number of officers going against the Chinese, they would be appalled.'' He says his frustration with the lack of resources was one reason he ended a 24-year career in 2006.

`Troublesome'

While 140 foreign intelligence services are trying to penetrate U.S. agencies, China's is the most aggressive, Brenner says. He describes China's activities as ``an intensifying and troublesome pattern.''

Chinese officials say the U.S. allegations are meritless.

``I wonder why people always feel threatened by others and treat others as thieves,'' Qin Gang, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, said at a March 15 press briefing in Beijing. ``It indicates these people have a chip on their shoulders and have fragile psychologies.''

While the Federal Bureau of Investigation tripled the size of its China unit in 2001, plans for further expansion were scotched when the Iraq war began, says Rudy Guerin, a China expert who retired from the bureau last year. David Szady, the FBI's former assistant director for counterintelligence, says the FBI should hire another 1,500 agents, and most should be used against China's espionage within the U.S.

More Agents

Stephen Kodak, an FBI spokesman, declines to say how many more might be necessary. At the same time, he adds that ``the bureau would always welcome additional assets.''

Central Intelligence Agency spokesman Paul Gimigliano says his agency has enough resources, and that ``it would be wrong to suggest that other priorities have diluted the attention we pay to China. Over the past five years, the opposite has been true.''

The FBI spent $2.2 billion on counterterrorism and counterintelligence programs last year; the CIA budget is classified. The U.S. won't disclose how many counterintelligence agents are working on China-related issues.

U.S. officials say there's overwhelming evidence that China has a well-thought-out plan to employ thousands of professional spies and amateurs to get sensitive U.S. military and business data, sometimes directly from sympathetic employees, sometimes through a joint venture or third party.

Submarine Data

Mak, his wife, brother, sister-in-law and nephew were indicted on charges of conspiring to export U.S. defense articles to China's government. In court papers, prosecutors say he copied submarine data from L-3's Anaheim, California-based Power Paragon unit onto compact discs and enlisted the other family members to encrypt the information and help smuggle it to China. Brenner says the disks also contained information on the U.S. Navy's next-generation DD(X) warship.

Under questioning, Mak admitted sending information to Chinese operatives since 1983 on technology that included radar systems of Aegis cruisers, which are used to defend against multiple missile attacks, Brenner says.

Mak and his relatives pleaded innocent to the charges. His lawyer, Ronald Kaye, says he was taking the disks for a conference with fellow engineers, and that the information about the Navy engine was obsolete. The engineer also got approval from his supervisor to make presentations at the conference, Kay says.

`Asset to His Country'

Mak ``was not only an asset to the company but a profound asset to his country,'' he says. Mak's relatives will go on trial in May.

U.S. officials say China's effort encompasses industrial secrets as well as national-security ones. Brenner cites the case of Gary Min, a DuPont Co. chemist who admitted obtaining information on company products, including materials used in airplane construction, that prosecutors valued at $400 million.

Authorities say that between August and December 2005, Min, 43, downloaded 22,000 confidential abstracts from the Wilmington, Delaware-based company's electronic library. The documents included information on all DuPont's major product lines as well as emerging technologies.

Some of the searches focused on Vespel, a synthetic resin used to coat car, airplane and oil pump parts, and Declar, a plastic material used in the automotive and energy industries and in airplane interiors, according to court papers.

Shredded Documents

U.S. law-enforcement authorities said that when they searched Min's Grove City, Ohio, home, they found computers containing confidential files, garbage bags filled with shredded company documents and the remains of DuPont papers that had been burned in the fireplace. In court documents, DuPont said the information would be ``highly valuable'' on the open market in ``foreign countries, specifically China.''

A call to Min's lawyers wasn't returned. Min hasn't been charged with being a Chinese spy.

Brenner says his office is still assessing the damage from another case involving Katrina Leung, who the FBI had used for 20 years as a double agent to obtain information from the Chinese, and who prosecutors in turn accused of being a Chinese agent herself.

Authorities accused Leung, 52, of taking documents from James Smith, head of the FBI's Chinese counterintelligence operation in Los Angeles, over the course of a nearly 20-year affair with him.

Peter Lee

Some of those documents related to ``Royal Tourist,'' the FBI code name for the investigation of Peter Lee, an employee of defense contractor TRW Inc. Lee, who was accused of giving radar technology being developed to track submarines to Chinese scientists, pleaded guilty in 1997 to willful transmission of national defense information to a person not entitled to receive it.

While the case against Leung was dismissed in 2005, Smith pleaded guilty to making a false statement to the FBI about his relationship with her. Smith was one of the FBI's most seasoned China experts, a resource the agency has struggled to replace, intelligence officials say.

The CIA also hasn't been able to replace its veteran China experts when they retire, Riggin says. ``We're losing huge experience in this area.''

With the CIA occupied with preventing U.S. government secrets from falling into the wrong hands, Riggin and others say, companies doing business in China are especially vulnerable to losing non-defense information. U.S. businesses are paying particular attention to the first intellectual-property suit brought in a Chinese court by Santa Clara, California-based Intel Corp., the world's biggest semiconductor maker.

Intel Suit

In the suit, Intel said Shenzhen Dongjin Communication Tech Co. Ltd. illegally used its software, which Dongjin had obtained through a third party, for network communication cards in its own products. Shenzhen Dongjin has countersued, accusing Intel of being an illegal monopoly.

Spokesmen for Shenzhen Dongjin haven't responded to e-mails and phone calls for comment. A ruling may come as early as next month, says Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy.

Whatever the ruling, U.S. companies face an uphill battle to keep secrets secret, says Thomas Donohue, president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the nation's largest business group.

``If you're going to make a huge move toward innovation, well, get ready in this system to lose it,'' he told reporters March 26 in Beijing. ``Because somebody's going to steal it.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aqgFx0bVAX3I&refer=news

china is a threat and as reported in this article, we are working to address that.

[I can't think of a name]

I hope you are right.

[Zerazax]

China has always had a big advantage in the realm of espionage because their culture is very ingrained with the people, so it is hard for outsiders to get "in" and its easy for them to get into other places, esp. those places that are very open to immigration, esp. from high education fields (engineers esp.)

[Ordie]

China has always had a big advantage in the realm of espionage because their culture is very ingrained with the people, so it is hard for outsiders to get "in" and its easy for them to get into other places, esp. those places that are very open to immigration, esp. from high education fields (engineers esp.)

You'd be very surprised how open China and Chinese society has become. If one were to learn the language and pay attention to details the place is a treasure trove of information. China is very open especially in the rural areas. Not once I was stoped by a checkpoint.

The only time I was followed by plainclothes cops was at Tienanamen Square. It was early morning I was the only one in the big square with five plainclothes cops circled in a parimeter of 50ft. It was funny, every where I went they followed me like remora fish on a shark in a big empty square. Finally I went up to one and asked him to take a picture of me. He was scared. Then after a while, I went up to another one asking for the time. He was equally scared. Finnally I went to another one after 1/2 hour to bumm some smokes. He looked at the others not knowing what to do.

Information is power and making connections is the key. That is true with business, education and government. Call it espionage, networking, education and data collecting. We all do it in our lives at work, school or relationships. I don't think its a Chinese thing, information is an important part of daily human survival.

The Americans have an equal opportunity to do the same in China. Unlike the Chinese, who encourage the study of second languages at an early stage. The Americans do not engage nor encourage elementatry level education in Chinese, Arabic, French, Farsi, Spanish, Turk or Russian.

The best investment that the CIA or the DOD can make for the next twenty years is provide funds for language immersion programs. Perhaps not all of today's children will end up working for the CIA, but many may end up in areas that support the US influence abroad in business, academia, arts, military, peace corps and diplomatic corps.

Had the US placed the same effort after the Beirut bombings in 1983 (Wake up call), I believe that 9/11 may or may not have happened but our tenture in Iraq and Afghanistan would have been much easier.

[Beowulf]

There is no intelligence in US intelligence.


How are you qualified to make this judgment?

[I can't think of a name]

Ok, I admit it was a generalization. But this was a stupid move. Anyone who knows people in these type of language services knows that they are full of panda lickers. Also there is no reciprocating level of secrecy relation to China. They treat everything under wraps even though we have little to learn from them.

[Ordie]

They treat everything under wraps even though we have little to learn from them.

Not true. In fact the Chinese has allowed US inspectors to set up seismic instruments at or near Lop Nur to ensure the Russians and Chinese abide with the non-proliferation and testing agreements.

Moreover, soon after 9/11 the Chinese have been very cooperative in providing intel about AQ and other networks.

Without the Chinese pro-active involvement in North Korea, we would be in a worst situation in regards to nuclear proliferation in Asia.

We have alot to learn from the Chinese. After all, they've been around for 5000 years. They must be doing something right to exist as a culture and a nation for such a long time.

[ViktorNavorski]

Not true. In fact the Chinese has allowed US inspectors to set up seismic instruments at or near Lop Nur to ensure the Russians and Chinese abide with the non-proliferation and testing agreements.

Moreover, soon after 9/11 the Chinese have been very cooperative in providing intel about AQ and other networks.

Without the Chinese pro-active involvement in North Korea, we would be in a worst situation in regards to nuclear proliferation in Asia.

We have alot to learn from the Chinese. After all, they've been around for 5000 years. They must be doing something right to exist as a culture and a nation for such a long time.Yeah, all very altruistic and out the goodness of their heart, pleeeease...:roll:

[Ordie]

Yeah, all very altruistic and out the goodness of their heart, pleeeease...:roll:

Yeah it could have been worst. If 9/11 wouldn't had happend what would the neo-cons focus thier attention? China.

Regardless of the rehtoric, for good or bad, China and the US are economically linked.

My argument is that instead of getting into a useless pissing match, it would be better to engage a more proactive partnership with China. Very much as we do with the UK.

But we need to beef up on our own resources in terms of developing and fostering knowledge about China to make it happen. Unlike the UK, with China, language is the biggest barrier.

[I can't think of a name]

Not true. In fact the Chinese has allowed US inspectors to set up seismic instruments at or near Lop Nur to ensure the Russians and Chinese abide with the non-proliferation and testing agreements.

Moreover, soon after 9/11 the Chinese have been very cooperative in providing intel about AQ and other networks.

Without the Chinese pro-active involvement in North Korea, we would be in a worst situation in regards to nuclear proliferation in Asia.

We have alot to learn from the Chinese. After all, they've been around for 5000 years. They must be doing something right to exist as a culture and a nation for such a long time.

Not to derail this thread, but I had a feeling you have the stance that everything will end goodie goodie with the panda and that there is nothing to worry about.

China has a lot more to gain trading and spying/stealing US tech. Thanks to our corporations exporting dual use tech and high end manufacturing processes. Anything worth while to the PLA ends up in the PLA's hands. It is a one way street. China is not getting anymore democratic or any less antagonistic to the US.

PLA corporations funneling RPGs and AKs around the globe negates any "Al Queda intel" they give us on some harmless Uyghurs near the Afghan border.

PLA generals talk publically about nuking Los Angeles and they get promotions. Also who gives a **** about allowing us to monitor testing in Xinjiang when they don't need to test nuclear weapons anymore thanks to the PLA stooges the Clintons allowing them to get MIRV warheads and other ICBM advancements under their watch.

China is not any less of a threat or any kinder to its neighbors or people with is nascent market driven economy localized on its coasts. It only makes them stronger.

China's governments are a history of 5,000 continuous years of suppression, conquest and subjugation of its people and neighbors. It has existed through ruthless tactics and hyper nationalist/racist actions. The current "Red Dynasty" is no different. Historical there have been three ruling classes: Royals, Eunuchs, Generals, and Bureaucrats. There are no more Royals and Eunuchs, just Bureaucrats and Warlord Generals. I have learned a lot about China the past few years and traveled all over it this summer. There is not much we should want out of there except cheap labor.

I am not trying to be antagonistic Ordie, I enjoy your posts on China. I just happen to disagree with some of your conclusions.

[I can't think of a name]

Yeah it could have been worst. If 9/11 wouldn't had happend what would the neo-cons focus thier attention? China.

Please, the "neo-cons" are criticized by China bashers for their "Goldman-
Sachs" foreign policy with China. Wall street types and corporate heads who would traditionally be proponents of neoliberal economics are all for this type of trade with China. Islamic Fundamentalism has little bearing on this.

Most conservatives who see China in a similar light of expansionist Japan circa the early 20th century feel that China should be treated more like the Soviet Union until their is a regime change or the country is broken up into smaller states.


Regardless of the rehtoric, for good or bad, China and the US are economically linked.

True


My argument is that instead of getting into a useless pissing match, it would be better to engage a more proactive partnership with China. Very much as we do with the UK.

NEVER HAPPEN. Study what the CPC is about. They will NEVER be interested in that. "China's century" is all about HAN people being the rulers of the world.


But we need to beef up on our own resources in terms of developing and fostering knowledge about China to make it happen. Unlike the UK, with China, language is the biggest barrier.

True, we also need to step away from the state of denial and acknowledge that China is still an issue. Its neighbors already are coming to that conclusion and we need to support them.

[Ordie]

I Can't Think Of A Name,

Good arguments overall.

The one thing I noticed about the Chinese and its expansion throughout history. Is that the 'bureaucrats' tendency to reign back whenever possible.

For example, when Admiral Zheng He returned from a successful voyage of 300 ships from East Africa, the Emperor with advisement of the Bureaucrats ordered the destruction of the fleet. Same was true with land expansion. The Chinese preferred to a system of expansion via tribute, where the ajoining states paid protection in return of recognizing the Emperor as the Son of Heaven. Korea, and Vietnam are examples.

Another interesting point about China, any invader of China (Mongols, Manchus) simply hires the bureaucrats of the previous dynasty. Within a generation or two, the invaders become acculrated Chinese.

I'm sort of the glass half full. I view the future of China akin to what Japan, South Korea and the ROC on Taiwan today. All of these countries were once repressive dictatorships. Now they are thriving democracies engaged with the world.

As with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, the Chinese government must adopt democratic culture and norms to better engaged with the world. It's good for thier bottom line, and survivalbility.

Overall, good rebuttal.

Merry Christmas

[I can't think of a name]

I Can't Think Of A Name,

Good arguments overall.

The one thing I noticed about the Chinese and its expansion throughout history. Is that the 'bureaucrats' tendency to reign back whenever possible.

For example, when Admiral Zheng He returned from a successful voyage of 300 ships from East Africa, the Emperor with advisement of the Bureaucrats ordered the destruction of the fleet. Same was true with land expansion. The Chinese preferred to a system of expansion via tribute, where the ajoining states paid protection in return of recognizing the Emperor as the Son of Heaven. Korea, and Vietnam are examples.

Good points, the reasons however can be viewed from the fact that most Chinese military expeditions ended in disaster. Also this speaks a lot about how Chinese leaders, and by extension, the Chinese people view themselves and their role in the world. A cultural and/or ethnic arrogance lead them to feel that other peoples were below them and they had nothing to learn from interacting with them. They did not want to associate with what they viewed as barbarians and did not want them to tarnish heaven (China). All that they could do was pay tribute to the emperor and kow tow. Aside from current Chinese opinions about Americans it seems that most internet nationalists are developing this world view. Just go to some China boards and ask about their "lost territories".

If you begin to think about Chinese like I described above you view traditional Chinese history differently. I went to the Great Wall the first time in June. Looking at these mountain ridges that were very steep combined with the wall on top had me scratching my head. Who would move an army over that mountain to begin with? Any real army would just punch through the wall at an easy point. Then it hit me, maybe this was to stop "invaders" of "Barbarians" in the form of poor nomads wanting to take part in the wealth of China. But China did not want some dirty barbarians looking for a better life mixing in with their heavenly society.

The argument I am trying to make is that if you look at China's actions it has a character of exclusion and screw everyone else.


Another interesting point about China, any invader of China (Mongols, Manchus) simply hires the bureaucrats of the previous dynasty. Within a generation or two, the invaders become acculrated Chinese.


True, but the relationship may be a little more symbiotic. The Mongols and Manchus effected China too. However compared to the sheer mass of China it was relatively insignificant.

The PRC today is having problems integrating minorities into Chinese society. For instance China's state driven development in Xinjinag in the 1990s did nothing to mitigate ethnic issues with the turkic people. Ironically the PRC came to the very un-marxist conclusion that no amount of economic progress will solve multicultural or ethic tensions. So their solution is to pump up the western provincial economies so much that the migration of Han people makes the minority populations insignificant. Bad Bad sign for Eastern Russia, Tibet, Kashmir and other places China casts its eye on.


I'm sort of the glass half full. I view the future of China akin to what Japan, South Korea and the ROC on Taiwan today. All of these countries were once repressive dictatorships. Now they are thriving democracies engaged with the world.

As with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, the Chinese government must adopt democratic culture and norms to better engaged with the world. It's good for thier bottom line, and survivalbility.

Overall, good rebuttal.

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to you. You remind me of the classic US Naval officer's as a diplomat. Commodore Mathew Perry's actions in opening Japan demonstrated immense preparation and knowledge of Japan. Nice to know guys in the Navy still may carry this tradition. (I love how a US Navy officer opened Japan, not some Euro diplomat).

Anyway, about transitions to democracy. Japan, SK, and Taiwan were all nominally under US influence. They had to take this route eventually to justify their role in the world. China however is its own master, specifically the CPC. They have no plans to relinquish control (their actions speak louder than their talk of opening up elections on the county level). These people are getting wealthy by having absolute control on the local level.

The CPC wont go down with out a fight. Also note that Singapore is not very democratic at all. The trend toward a market economy in China does not mean that they are heading toward democracy. The two are mutually exclusive. While Mao and Xiaoping had clout as revolutionaries and Long March veterans and Jiang Zemin had the status of some sort of statesmen. The current generation on the other hand only has economic growth as the justification of their rule. That is the true motivation for their actions, the primary motive behind every CPC move is to hold onto their power. Don't forget that. They are not benign and benevolent and the sooner the West realizes that the better.

[Zerazax]

Most conservatives who see China in a similar light of expansionist Japan circa the early 20th century feel that China should be treated more like the Soviet Union until their is a regime change or the country is broken up into smaller states.


I agreed with a lot of what you said, but I disagree heavily with trying to break the country into smaller states. Suggesting that will only add fuel to strengthen the PRC's resolve since they (and the ROC before the Taiwan movement tried to distance themselves from the China in ROC) and a lot of Chinese around the world are very much against trying to split an ancient culture.

I remember when Wen Ho Lee was caught stealing US nuclear secrets and passing them on to the PRC - I was thinking, why would we let a former PRC citizen have access in the first place? Then I realized that he was actually born in Taiwan as a ROC citizen, which seemed very counterintuitive to me given that a lot of this happened right when there had been tensions in the straits. I've since come to realize that a lot of Chinese do not care about the government's or political ideologies in the long run - they care about their cultural identity.

[Ordie]

I Can't Think Of A Name,

Thanks for the feedback. You've given me something to think about.

Ordie

[I can't think of a name]

Don't get me wrong. I would like to think China will head down the same path at the other developed economies. That would be great for everyone. however the world never seems to work that way.

[I can't think of a name]

I agreed with a lot of what you said, but I disagree heavily with trying to break the country into smaller states. Suggesting that will only add fuel to strengthen the PRC's resolve since they (and the ROC before the Taiwan movement tried to distance themselves from the China in ROC) and a lot of Chinese around the world are very much against trying to split an ancient culture.

Tell that to the Tibetans, they have a history of a distinct ethnic, cultural and geographic separation from China. The Turkic people up in Xinjaing Uighur Autonomous Region were and independent republic as recent as 60 years ago called East Turkestan. Both these regions comprise close to a 1/3 of "China". Do these people belong to China's "Ancient Culture" because the Bandits in Beijing think so?

I think not. Those are the two biggies. You can also view China's actions of building a wall on the North Korean border as territorial consolidation. If they feel that NK is falling they don't want a strong Confucian unified Korean Peninsula to have any claim on ethic Korean lands up in Manchuria. There is a strong argument that formerly Manchu/Korean or any other tribal lands north of the great wall could be part of a different country than the Han Chinese. However these regions like Xinjiang and Tibet are being subjugated to Internal Colonialism by the PRC. The PRC's goal is to make these regions have Han majorities so they will never be able to be reclaimed by their local populations.

I could also argue that Yunnan province or parts of Guangzhou have little historical ties to Han Chinese states. I would also like to see a independent Cantonese state on the South China Coast. They speak a very different Dialect and the people look very different from the northern Chinese. I would say that they are not part of the "Han" ethnic group. The "Han" maybe a fabricated racial construct by previous Chinese dynasties to consolidate their territorial gains and subjugation of various people. The South China Coast has for centuries had its economy of maritime trade hampered by Confucian following northern powers.


I remember when Wen Ho Lee was caught stealing US nuclear secrets and passing them on to the PRC - I was thinking, why would we let a former PRC citizen have access in the first place? Then I realized that he was actually born in Taiwan as a ROC citizen, which seemed very counterintuitive to me given that a lot of this happened right when there had been tensions in the straits. I've since come to realize that a lot of Chinese do not care about the government's or political ideologies in the long run - they care about their cultural identity.Not cultural Identity. They care about two things.

1. Family
2. Money

I know that is not very PC but it is true. Any feelings of cultural identity are due to a sense of shame or desire for pride in their heritage. Many Chinese is dispora communities have been willing to drop that all for better lives.

Part of me wants the ROC to be armed to the teeth however these people are not like Israel. Chinese have a history of "Can't beat 'em join them". I am sure many ROC citizens would sell out their country in return for power in the PRC or "Greater China". The DDP people are more anti-PRC than the old KMT who long for a glorious China. I could see a ROC pilot flying say,,,a F-35,,, to Fujian in return for power in the PRC.

You are correct to question the Taiwanese relationship with the PRC. These people in the end will look out for themselves.

I never understood this all until recently myself.

[plato]

------------- out their country in return for power in the PRC or "Greater China". The DDP people are more anti-PRC than the old KMT who long for a glorious China. I could see a ROC pilot flying say,,,a F-35,,, to Fujian in return for power in the PRC.

You are correct to question the Taiwanese relationship with the PRC. These people in the end will look out for themselves.

I never understood this all until recently myself.


Who doesn't look out for themselves in the end? Correct me if I am wrong on this, didn't US abandon ROC to place PRC into the UN? I am sure US wasn't looking out for themselves!

[I can't think of a name]

Who doesn't look out for themselves in the end? Correct me if I am wrong on this, didn't US abandon ROC to place PRC into the UN? I am sure US wasn't looking out for themselves!

True, but I was talking about individuals, not the country. You are talking about the country.

For the ROC to look after itself that would mean something totally different than a single individual defecting to the PRC with something the PRC wants. My original point is meaning that ROC citizens may feel it is in their best interests to work with the PRC on things when it is not in the ROC's interest as a nation.

[plato]

True, but I was talking about individuals, not the country. You are talking about the country.

For the ROC to look after itself that would mean something totally different than a single individual defecting to the PRC with something the PRC wants. My original point is meaning that ROC citizens may feel it is in their best interests to work with the PRC on things when it is not in the ROC's interest as a nation.
ic, you don't have faith in the people of Taiwan. That reminds me of what some people say about Iraq.

[I can't think of a name]

ic, you don't have faith in the people of Taiwan. That reminds me of what some people say about Iraq.

That is true. If you look at these things from a nation-state perspective it become more clear.

Iraq as a State under Saddam was clear, however after all these years it is evident that it never really was a unified nation but rather three. The Kurds see themselves as Kurds etc.....

Taiwan has the KMT types who have families on the mainland and had dreams of a one China under KMT rule. Then you have the more native Taiwanese population who wants independence. So again, the nation part of Taiwan is complicated and not easy to quantify. Unlike Israel that is mostly ethnically and culturally homogeneous. The nation-state is clear, and that is why they have little security problems with their own people as far as I know.

[balalaika-san]

That is true. If you look at these things from a nation-state perspective it become more clear.

Iraq as a State under Saddam was clear, however after all these years it is evident that it never really was a unified nation but rather three. The Kurds see themselves as Kurds etc.....

Taiwan has the KMT types who have families on the mainland and had dreams of a one China under KMT rule. Then you have the more native Taiwanese population who wants independence. So again, the nation part of Taiwan is complicated and not easy to quantify. Unlike Israel that is mostly ethnically and culturally homogeneous. The nation-state is clear, and that is why they have little security problems with their own people as far as I know.If you think China should be separate in to several small nations. Why don't your told us how should we separate other big, multiracial nation like U.S., Russia, Malaysia, and India? We can start with a easy one, let's say, Belgium.

Otherwise I will think you're just a China hater.

[Ordie]

What "I can't think of a name" is true up to a point. China is a cultural and lingusitic polyglot. But where he misses the point is that ever since the Xin Dynasty, China has been a single empire / nation-state. The first Emperor set up a system of standardization of laws, language, writing weights, measure and governance. Eventhough the Xin lasted for a relatively short period, it set the example for subsequent Dynasties and Governments to follow.

To divide China into separate states would make the crisis in the former Yugoslavia look like a lovefest. The Cantonese, Fujianese, Shanghainese, Hakka etc... have identified themselves as Chinese both in culture and norms. In fact the former leaders of Singapore (Lee Kwan Yew), Taiwan (Lee Teng Hui) and the PRC (Deng Xiao Peng) were Hakka.

Overseas Chinese communities tend to cluster around language groups. In San Francisco, the predominate language is Taisan or Cantonese. In Los Angeles, in Rowland Heights its Taiwanese (Fujianese). But most understand Mandarin as the lingua franca. With exception of the Taiwanese DPP supporters, most have accepted the status quo.

Yunnan was one of the last provences to be settled by China. Yunnan's topography and good weather isolated many communities with little or no reason to migrate except south. This is why Yunnan provence is one of the most culturally diverse and remote parts of China. In fact there are villages of people who are desended from Mongol soldiers and speak a form of Mongolian like the Hazaras in Afghanistan.

Taiwan is be default is an independent nation today. It has its own government, military, economy, currency and civil society apart from the People's Republic of China. However, the PRC efforts to facilitate trade and travel between the two entities (economic bear hug) has created a web of interdependence. So much so that nobody in thier right minds in Taiwan would want to jeopardize the flow of money. This works the same for the PRC since they are obliged to carry through any punitive action if an "independence" action fail or not. Since Taiwan is a porcupine any military action on part of the PRC will be damaging and may mean the loss of the CCP rule.

As for Chinese family norms. Historically, the powers that be have enacted laws and rules through the family. It was up to the family to keep things in order. The family was an anchor for China during times of crisis and upheaval.

In the past, to be a scholar or a teacher was the ultimate profession. Ironically being a merchant or soldier were considered the lower rungs of the ladder. All that changed during the 20th Century in the absence of order through wars, social engineering, displacement and immigration. Business was one of the few venues for families to survive. The Taiwanese were shut out of ROC government jobs and positions for many years. They opted to go into business and exportation as an alternative.

I don't think is fair to label people who disagree or critique about China as "China Haters". Being critical at times shows that we care about the subject. If we had hated or be indifferent about China, we would not care write or comment about it.

My fear is there are more America Haters in China than China Haters in the US.

WARNING: Nationalism if unchecked can be very dangerous.

[I can't think of a name]

What "I can't think of a name" is true up to a point. China is a cultural and lingusitic polyglot. But where he misses the point is that ever since the Xin Dynasty, China has been a single empire / nation-state. The first Emperor set up a system of standardization of laws, language, writing weights, measure and governance. Eventhough the Xin lasted for a relatively short period, it set the example for subsequent Dynasties and Governments to follow.

Good points, however look at this from a geographic perspective. Early Dynasties were very localized north of the Yangzi, south of the great wall and no further west than what is now Shanxi province. The West, North East, and South have not been continuously dominated for thousands of years. They have had long periods of independence. The Chinese have done a good job of suppressing any records of there existence. Censorship is nothing new for China.


To divide China into separate states would make the crisis in the former Yugoslavia look like a lovefest. The Cantonese, Fujianese, Shanghainese, Hakka etc... have identified themselves as Chinese both in culture and norms. In fact the former leaders of Singapore (Lee Kwan Yew), Taiwan (Lee Teng Hui) and the PRC (Deng Xiao Peng) were Hakka.

That may be true. That is the PRC's in settling Han people in these ethnic minority's areas. Internal Colonialism. Did not know Lee Kwan Yew was Hakka, or Lee Teng Hui. I know Hui spoke Japanese.


Overseas Chinese communities tend to cluster around language groups. In San Francisco, the predominate language is Taisan or Cantonese. In Los Angeles, in Rowland Heights its Taiwanese (Fujianese). But most understand Mandarin as the lingua franca. With exception of the Taiwanese DPP supporters, most have accepted the status quo.

Yunnan was one of the last provences to be settled by China. Yunnan's topography and good weather isolated many communities with little or no reason to migrate except south. This is why Yunnan provence is one of the most culturally diverse and remote parts of China. In fact there are villages of people who are desended from Mongol soldiers and speak a form of Mongolian like the Hazaras in Afghanistan.

I also hear Yunnan is the cleanest too, that might change with Xibu Da Kaifa. Places like Yunnan only exists to serve the needs of the heart of China. Its resources will be extracted and a core-periphery relationship will develop in a colonial sense.


Taiwan is be default is an independent nation today. It has its own government, military, economy, currency and civil society apart from the People's Republic of China. However, the PRC efforts to facilitate trade and travel between the two entities (economic bear hug) has created a web of interdependence. So much so that nobody in thier right minds in Taiwan would want to jeopardize the flow of money. This works the same for the PRC since they are obliged to carry through any punitive action if an "independence" action fail or not. Since Taiwan is a porcupine any military action on part of the PRC will be damaging and may mean the loss of the CCP rule.


My argument is that if the prevailing though begins to to think that reunification is inevitable you will see flocks of Taiwanese betray the country to get on the PRCs good list. Fact is that don't assume that because someone is from the ROC that they will be anti-PRC. They could be more than willing to change sides if it helps them personally.



As for Chinese family norms. Historically, the powers that be have enacted laws and rules through the family. It was up to the family to keep things in order. The family was an anchor for China during times of crisis and upheaval.

That is correct, but also having liquid wealth also helped too. Many Chinese remind me of Americans who survived the great depression. They kept their money out of banks and in things they could pick up and move.


In the past, to be a scholar or a teacher was the ultimate profession. Ironically being a merchant or soldier were considered the lower rungs of the ladder. All that changed during the 20th Century in the absence of order through wars, social engineering, displacement and immigration. Business was one of the few venues for families to survive. The Taiwanese were shut out of ROC government jobs and positions for many years. They opted to go into business and exportation as an alternative.


That is the Confucian Hierarchy you speak of. Con Fuzi was from the Shandong peninsula. Northern Chinese powers subjugated that thought onto the inhabitants of the South China coast. These people had a strong tradition of maritime trade with south east Asia. See the difference between the North (Traditional center of Chinese power) and the South. The South China Coast could of been and can be much better off as an independent state.



don't think is fair to label people who disagree or critique about China as "China Haters". Being critical at times shows that we care about the subject. If we had hated or be indifferent about China, we would not care write or comment about it.

My fear is there are more America Haters in China than China Haters in the US.

WARNING: Nationalism if unchecked can be very dangerous.

Chinese Nationalist play that game when confronted about their ignorance. Most foreigners who have studied China know more about its past then they do. There is more of everything in China, that includes institutionalized America haters.

This is how Chinese blame goes for why they are not in their "Rightful Place" in the world.

1. Mongols
2. Manchus
3. Europeans
4. Japanese
5. Now Americans.

Ironic thing is that The Chinese should thank the US for its independence today. Also they should thank the "Terrorists" on Taiwan.

[I can't think of a name]

If you think China should be separate in to several small nations. Why don't your told us how should we separate other big, multiracial nation like U.S., Russia, Malaysia, and India? We can start with a easy one, let's say, Belgium.

Otherwise I will think you're just a China hater.

Find groups of say, 60 million people in each of those nations who want to be separated. Or places where those countries had to send a 100,000 soldiers to hold. Then you may have a point.

[plato]

--------My fear is there are more America Haters in China than China Haters in the US.

WARNING: Nationalism if unchecked can be very dangerous.

I think that is already the case.

[balalaika-san]

Find groups of say, 60 million people in each of those nations who want to be separated. Or places where those countries had to send a 100,000 soldiers to hold. Then you may have a point.
Does American Civil war, Chechen, Muslim in India, Thailand and other southeast Asia countries ring any bell?

[J-10]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071221/NATION/676409066/1001

There is no intelligence in US intelligence.

Well for one, note how ethnic Chinese were targeted and acquired as spies, just like the Lebanese who were recently spying for Hezzbollah.

Second, no one is taking China seriously. With the USSR we had an embargo and people learning Russian meant big career moves in intelligence. It seems like only China is aggressively going after results.


Every story written by Mr./Mrs. Bill Gertz of the washingtonwastetime.com always say "according to officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity."