Illegal immigrants packing up and leaving Arizona

[Name Taken]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/index.html

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- Illegal immigrants in Arizona, frustrated with a flagging economy and tough new legislation cracking down on their employers, are returning to their home countries or trying their luck in other states.


http://www.cnn.com/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif



var CNN_ArticleChanger = new CNN_imageChanger('cnnImgChngr','/2007/US/12/22/immigrants.leave.ap/imgChng/p1-0.init.exclude.html',1,1); //CNN.imageChanger.load('cnnImgChngr','imgChng/p1-0.exclude.html'); For months, immigrants have taken a wait-and-see attitude toward the state's new employer-sanctions law, which takes effect January 1. The voter-approved legislation is an attempt to lessen the economic incentive for illegal immigrants in Arizona, the busiest crossing point along the U.S.-Mexico border.
And by all appearances, it's starting to work.
"People are calling me telling me about their friend, their cousin, their neighbors -- they're moving back to Mexico (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/mexico)," said Magdalena Schwartz, an immigrant-rights activist and pastor at a Mesa church. "They don't want to live in fear, in terror."
Martin Herrera, a 40-year-old illegal immigrant and masonry worker who lives in Camp Verde, 70 miles north of Phoenix, said he is planning to return to Mexico as soon as he ties up loose ends after living here for four years.
"I don't want to live here because of the new law and the oppressive environment," he said. "I'll be better in my country."
He called the employer-sanctions law "absurd."
"Everybody here, legally or illegally, we are part of a motor that makes this country run," Herrera said. "Once we leave, the motor is going to start to slow down."
There's no way to know how many illegal immigrants are leaving Arizona (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/arizona), especially now with many returning home for normal holiday visits. But economists, immigration lawyers and people who work in the immigrant community agree it's happening.
State Rep. Russell Pearce of Mesa, the author of the employer sanctions law, said his intent was to drive illegal immigrants out of Arizona.
"I'm hoping they will self-deport," Pearce said. "They broke the law. They're criminals."
Under the employer sanctions law, businesses found to have knowingly hired illegal workers will be subject to sanctions from probation to a 10-day suspension of their business licenses. A second violation would bring permanent revocation of the license.
Nancy-Jo Merritt, an immigration (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/immigration) lawyer who primarily represents employers, said her clients already have started to fire workers who can't prove they are in the country legally.


"Workers are being fired, of course," she said. "Nobody wants to find out later on that they've got somebody working for them who's not here legally."
When immigrants don't have jobs, they don't stick around, said Dawn McLaren, a research economist at Arizona State University who specializes in illegal immigration.
She said the flagging economy, particularly in the construction industry, also is contributing to an immigrant exodus.
"As the jobs dwindle and the environment becomes more unpleasant in more ways than one, you then decide what to do, and perhaps leaving looks like a good idea," she said. "And certainly that creates a problem, because as people leave, they take the jobs they created with them."
Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.
"We have a free market. It'll adjust," he said. "Americans will be much better off."
He said he's not surprised illegal immigrants are leaving the state and predicts that more will go once the employer-sanctions law takes effect next month.
"It's attrition by enforcement," he said. "As you make this an unfriendly state for lawbreakers, I'm hoping they will pick up and leave."

[Undisputed4]

Whoever wrote this story should be arrested for aiding and abedding(sp?).
I hope they do start giving illegal aliens identifications, then the INS can wait outside and arrest them.

[Felix U. Gómez]

What about the employers that hire the illegal aliens, aren't they criminal law breakers too? Once the illegal aliens leave arizona, that "criminal" element will remain in arizona, and since they won't have employees and won't be working arizona will have lots of non-working criminals lose out on the streets.
It is funny how some politicians in the article refer to illegal aliens as "criminals" because they entered the country illegally, but fail to label as such those that hire them. It takes two to tango, no? I guess people in the U.S. need their daily dose of "politics of fear" in order to get through the day. You should be careful, its like caffeine or nicotine, very addictive.

[Undisputed4]

Dont worry the people that hire them are criminals in my mind too.

[Ordie]

I have a cousin in the restaurant supply business in PHX. Many of the restaurant workers are quitting before the deadline and going to New Mexico or Midwest.

Some restaurants are struggling to keep up with customer demand. The local labor has been taken up by the stores for the holiday rush.

[WarriorMonk]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

maddox automatically wins.

[Van Gogh]

I live in Arizona, and every morning the Mexican immigrants stand in front of home depot to see if they can score a job off someone coming in for parts or something except recently which would correspond with this article. I had to keep that in mind in determining the truth behind this article. Being an American who's looking for work, this is good news for me, because some of the competition is leaving.

[saigonsmuggler]

A relative of mine is a doctor. A whopping 70% of his patients do not pay. Many are undocumented. So guess who pay for this 70%?

Illegal immigration is a drag on the spiraling medical costs, education, and infrastructures.

[RonsonJeremiah]

I wholeheartedly agree with saigonsmuggler. I'm a chef and have to deal with the illegal immigrant question every single day. They keep kitchen wages low because they'll work for far less than your average American and there is an overabundance of them here in the Lone Star State.

I've tried to accommodate them by learning as much of their language as possible, which is pretty much a necessity if you want to get anything done, but I'm tired of having to be the one to bend over for them, when they are in MY country. I think I'm just going to start throwing knives.

Don't get me wrong, I know that they are just trying to make a living. Many of the Illegals I've worked with in kitchens are very hard workers, but the fact of the matter is that they are here illegally...end of story.

As saigonsmuggler stated, "Illegal immigration is a drag on the spiraling medical costs, education, and infrastructures."

[mi35d]

No addiction, just reality.

Yes, employers that hire criminals are criminals as well.

Back to the real issue at hand: Instead of commenting on our criminals why not deal with your own? Build your own economy and give them a reason to stay home.

[Dragunov]

I wholeheartedly agree with saigonsmuggler. I'm a chef and have to deal with the illegal immigrant question every single day. They keep kitchen wages low because they'll work for far less than your average American and there is an overabundance of them here in the Lone Star State.

I've tried to accommodate them by learning as much of their language as possible, which is pretty much a necessity if you want to get anything done, but I'm tired of having to be the one to bend over for them, when they are in MY country. I think I'm just going to start throwing knives.

Don't get me wrong, I know that they are just trying to make a living. Many of the Illegals I've worked with in kitchens are very hard workers, but the fact of the matter is that they are here illegally...end of story.

As saigonsmuggler stated, "Illegal immigration is a drag on the spiraling medical costs, education, and infrastructures."

Weird, how do they get hired? They have to go through interviews and have to speak English in order to perform well.
If you are positive about their illegal status you should report them to the Border Patrol.

[Dragunov]

I live in Arizona, and every morning the Mexican immigrants stand in front of home depot to see if they can score a job off someone coming in for parts or something except recently which would correspond with this article. I had to keep that in mind in determining the truth behind this article. Being an American who's looking for work, this is good news for me, because some of the competition is leaving.

That's good news. Now is your turn to wait outside the Home Depot. :)

[z0rr0101]

Pearce disagreed that the Arizona economy will suffer after illegal immigrants leave, saying there will be less crime, lower taxes, less congestion, smaller classroom sizes and shorter lines in emergency rooms.


I find this statement interesting, "there will be less crime". I guess illegal employment and aliens presence in it self is a crime, and if there are gone statistically there will be less crime. But I don't see how will this lower other types of crime.

[Shadowstorm]

I have a feeling that illegal immigration from Mexico will slowing down how that place growing fast economically.

[Milepitopet]

That's good news. Now is your turn to wait outside the Home Depot. :)
At least I'm not the one that will go hungry. I'd rather pay more than hire illegals.

[eskachig]

I have to say that the illegal immigrant quoted in the newspaper is right about the fact that they are helping the economy. And I like that they're leaving instead of adopting a homeless mooching lifestyle. Immigrants and their work ethic made this country what it is, I think we should be encouraging immigration rather than making it so hard to move here. As for medicine and education - I understand the problem but at the same I want emergency medicine (really I'm not against universal healthcare either) to be free for anyone who needs it, and education as well.

[mrob]

Weird, how do they get hired? They have to go through interviews and have to speak English in order to perform well.
If you are positive about their illegal status you should report them to the Border Patrol.

What kind of jobs do you think they are doing? haha trust me it is nothing that would require a formal interview.

[Herrmannek]

Europe have such laws for long long time, often not direct ones but still... People will hire illegals if it will calculate, fines and stoppages will be yet another cost in their accountants books... Expect prices to rise everything else stays the same... IMHO Illegals should be constantly and effectively kicked out, if there is a need there should be a easy legal way to let people in... Especially in jobs no born American would like to work.

[RonsonJeremiah]

I can guarantee you that the persons I speak of are indeed illegals. I've asked many of them whom I have worked with over the years how many times they've traversed the Rio Grande and their answers are startling. I don't think anyone here in America legally would find it necessary to swim a river to get to and from the states.

It is surprisingly easy for illegals to get forged documents stating they are of legal working status.

As for calling and reporting them to the Border Patrol. The problem is just too widespread in my industry here in Texas. If I called them, they'd probably be like, yeah, tell us something we don't know. Besides, they've got enough on their plates trying to avoid prosecution for doing their jobs.

I've sometimes wondered what a big force for change the millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico would be if they all returned home and said to the Mexican government, enough is enough. We want jobs and you're going to provide them for us.

Whatever happened to that good old Mexican revolutionary fervor?

[Ordie]

I wholeheartedly agree with saigonsmuggler. I'm a chef and have to deal with the illegal immigrant question every single day. They keep kitchen wages low because they'll work for far less than your average American and there is an overabundance of them here in the Lone Star State.

I've tried to accommodate them by learning as much of their language as possible, which is pretty much a necessity if you want to get anything done, but I'm tired of having to be the one to bend over for them, when they are in MY country. I think I'm just going to start throwing knives.

Don't get me wrong, I know that they are just trying to make a living. Many of the Illegals I've worked with in kitchens are very hard workers, but the fact of the matter is that they are here illegally...end of story.

As saigonsmuggler stated, "Illegal immigration is a drag on the spiraling medical costs, education, and infrastructures."

Try to find a local American to work as a dishwsher, bussers, prep-cooks and line cooks willing to work long hours, in the heat, enduring cutting large amounts of onions, getting splashed with cooking oils, standing on your feet for most of the into the late hours at night with no weekends?

If you offer the prevailing wage with medical and 401K I'd bet the prices on the menu will be too high for customers. I doubt you break even at the end of the night. You might as well call it quits.

[JKD]

Try to find a local American to work as a dishwsher, bussers, prep-cooks and line cooks willing to work long hours, in the heat, enduring cutting large amounts of onions, getting splashed with cooking oils, standing on your feet for most of the into the late hours at night with no weekends?

If you offer the prevailing wage with medical and 401K I'd bet the prices on the menu will be too high for customers. I doubt you break even at the end of the night. You might as well call it quits.
My first job was bussing tables. Later I was also a dishwasher and a cook. All my co-workers were Americans. The prices on the menu were what you'd expect to pay at an average steakhouse and we were being paid a legal wage. No one had medial or a 401k there though. Americans do indeed work in the food service industry.

I'm all for streamlining the immigration process and allowing more people in legally but the notion that American's simply won't do the same work that illegals do just doesn't ring true.

[Elbows]

As a USBP agent...I can vouch that the story is not really that true. We catch tons every day (I caught 30 this morning...yes...Christmas Eve). The old tag "they just want to do jobs that Americans wont do" is simply BS...it should read "they just want to do jobs that Americans wont do for that horrifically low-pay". I would love to crack-down with an Iron Fist on the companies who hire them personally...and I would love to crush Bank of America who willingly and openly gives credit cards...to illegal aliens.

The support structure is so huge in the US, let alone Arizona...its a problem of epidemic proportions. But...we just go to work, do our job, work 10-12 hours a day..and go home, what else can we do?

I'm fine with product prices rising 5-10% if you need to pay your employees more. Then again with the wellfare and "do as you please, we'll pay" attitude of the US Government even towards US citizens...thats a whole other matter.

I had a Guatemalan immigration officer we caught (irony?) and he had a serious heart condition, when I was watching him in the hospital (in which he stayed for a week+, all on our dime...) I told him "bad luck huh? Crossing and having a heart attack..."

His response? "Bad luck? No...good luck...here I'm in the hospital getting better."

The immigration problem isn't going anywhere without drastic changes.

[saigonsmuggler]

Sure prices on menu may rise without illegal immigration. House prices might rise a little without cheap illegal labor. But on the otherhand, we save on medical, education, infrastructures, welfare costs. Without illegal immigration, we might even save on taxes.

With home builders, I am not even sure that they pass the "low cost of illegal labor" to the buyers. It benefits corporate America, while it burdens the taxpayers.

[Ordie]

I would love to crush Bank of America who willingly and openly gives credit cards...to illegal aliens.

Why? It's a means to spend money that supports local businesses, thus paying sales and other taxes that supports your salary.

Ironic ehh?

[FutureGrunt]

I thought about if the same situation would happen here in New York. The thing is, I really see no immediate replacements for illegals working in the kitchens and in construction even if you raise salaries. Just too many of them.

[Ordie]

Sure prices on menu may rise without illegal immigration. House prices might rise a little without cheap illegal labor. But on the otherhand, we save on medical, education, infrastructures, welfare costs. Without illegal immigration, we might even save on taxes.

With home builders, I am not even sure that they pass the "low cost of illegal labor" to the buyers. It benefits corporate America, while it burdens the taxpayers.

Housing and commercial real estate developers goal is to increase profit margins by all means. They rarely pass the savings to the consumers. The price of housing is based on the free market. If it tanks, the best they could hope for is breaking even. If its a loss, perhaps a tax write-off.

Undocumented immigrants pay more in taxes that what they recieve. However there exist a funding gap for the local providers.

Health care is a societal problem with 47 million Americans who are not insured.
Law enforcement is struggling to attract new recurits given that the Baby Boomer cops are retiring at an alarming rate.

Education wise, every politician likes to promote it but rarely comes through with the funding. As a result, school districts try to pass bond measures and parcel taxes to get by.

Here's a quote from Texas:

The absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our gross state product of $17.7 billion. Undocumented immigrants produced $1.58 billion in state revenues, which exceeded the $1.16 billion in state services they received. However, local governments bore the burden of $1.44 billion in uncompensated health care costs and local law enforcement costs not paid for by the state.
-- Carole Keeton Strayhorn, Texas Comptroller

Texas has no income tax.

[jedisponge]

I have come up with a simple answer:

Why not let wages and prices be determined by the market? If food prices go up, then people will respond according. They will either accept it, and restaurants will be populated, or they won't, and restaurants will adjust their prices and management accordingly to get people back at their tables. Eventually the good will survive and will be examples for new businesses to follow, and the bad will die off to leave room for the new. I think one of the best examples of this is the electronic retail industry.

But alas, even the simplest answers are the hardest to implement.

I think one of the biggest problems that American society has is this fear of instability. What would happen as the market adjusts? People would probably lose jobs, but who would they be? Many don't want their jobs to be lost, so everyone will just accept the status quo and let things be. Can you really blame them? If I were asked to lose my job for the betterment of everyone, or continue to work to pay for my house, food, college for kids, I would most likely choose the latter, as I suspect almost everyone else will.

The issues that we face today something that will require a long, hard look, as it deals more than just immigration laws. It will deal with some of the very foundations that our society lives by today, things that were established in the last century. What the answers are, I have no clue, as I have not the ability or knowledge in that field to find any. I hope that one day someone that does have those skills comes along, and I hope it is soon.

In the end, all these little problems will be attributed to the Bush administration, whether it is truly the administration's fault or not. However, the evidence that is out there can easily be interpreted as Bush's mismanagement of the economy, and to those more in tune with the situation, the Republican Congress' largess that came to be in the mid '90's and the Democratic Congress of today's failure to rectify the situation. But the real question at the end of the day, is was it worth it? Was OEF, OIF, and the general GWOT worth the economic impact that many (but not all) Americans are feeling? Only time will tell. Hopefully it will be, and the economic conditions for the "normal," average, lower to middle class American will improve in the near future.

But if we're to look at history for any beacon of hope, it won't be bright. All we have that similarly parallels what we're experiencing today is Lyndon Johnson and his legacy... and that isn't good.

[Will938]

Try to find a local American to work as a dishwsher, bussers, prep-cooks and line cooks willing to work long hours, in the heat, enduring cutting large amounts of onions, getting splashed with cooking oils, standing on your feet for most of the into the late hours at night with no weekends?

If you offer the prevailing wage with medical and 401K I'd bet the prices on the menu will be too high for customers. I doubt you break even at the end of the night. You might as well call it quits.

I'm sorry, but every time I read posts questioning the willingness of Americans to work hard I have to roll my eyes. My first three jobs from 13-22 were landscaping, construction, and auto mechanic; in that order. The pay was **** and the work was tough, but it was money.

I also have to sigh when I read opinions about what would happen to the food industry if they disappeared. Have illegal aliens spread to every kitchen in the US and hold a monopoly on the low paying job? No, there are plenty of legal citizens in these positions, more than the illegal population by far. If they disappear, the prices might go up a bit because the position is in DEMAND. People will like the pay and work the job. The country will not fall apart over it.

[Felix U. Gómez]

A relative of mine is a doctor. A whopping 70% of his patients do not pay. Many are undocumented. So guess who pay for this 70%?

Illegal immigration is a drag on the spiraling medical costs, education, and infrastructures.

Hmmm, you might have a relative that is a doctor,... but not in Arizona. I do, and he works for a clinic that receives state funding to provide free psychiatric services to people. He says that illegal immigrants do not even try to go there because they will be denied services. He says that Arizona is very un-friendly in this regard to illegal immigrants, though curiously he thinks that they have less psychological problems than your average American. He sees some cases of people that are very f@#ked up. By the way, he's from Mexico.
I think that Mexico should treat US citizens the same way, which would mean cracking down and deporting the 1/2 million to 1 million US citizens living illegally in Mexico (they don't take low paying jobs), and maybe just flat-out not do business in Arizona, including tourism (there's really not that much to see except for a couple of holes in the ground). Merry Christmas, and good luck with your new jobs in agriculture, and in the restaurant and hotel industries.

[saigonsmuggler]

Hmmm, you might have a relative that is a doctor,... but not in Arizona. I do, and he works for a clinic that receives state funding to provide free psychiatric services to people. He says that illegal immigrants do not even try to go there because they will be denied services. He says that Arizona is very un-friendly in this regard to illegal immigrants, though curiously he thinks that they have less psychological problems than your average American. He sees some cases of people that are very f@#ked up. By the way, he's from Mexico.
I think that Mexico should treat US citizens the same way, which would mean cracking down and deporting the 1/2 million to 1 million US citizens living illegally in Mexico (they don't take low paying jobs), and maybe just flat-out not do business in Arizona, including tourism (there's really not that much to see except for a couple of holes in the ground). Merry Christmas, and good luck with your new jobs in agriculture, and in the restaurant and hotel industries.
My relative works in the ER of a major hospital system in Texas. Undocumented immigrants do not go to clinics but they rather use the ER's as clinics. Most clinics in TX demand payment before providing service. Hospital ER's, by laws, have to provide service.

[Ordie]

Undocumented immigrants do not go to clinics but they rather use the ER's as clinics.

So do most of the 40 million Americans without health insurance.

[mi35d]

Listening to Michael Moore again I see...do a Google and find out the real figure.

As for this reply:

Why? It's a means to spend money that supports local businesses, thus paying sales and other taxes that supports your salary.

How many Criminal aliens do you think actual make the payments on their credit cards? Since they aren't giving permanent addresses or legal documents for billing they can effectively skip town without any redress by the companies that they "buy" products from. This ends up hurting local businesses and the citizens you believe are assisted from having ILLEGAL aliens with credit cards.

[Ordie]

Since they aren't giving permanent addresses or legal documents for billing they can effectively skip town without any redress by the companies that they "buy" products from. This ends up hurting local businesses and the citizens you believe are assisted from having ILLEGAL aliens with credit cards.

There is no policy that preludes anyone from obtaining a credit card based on residential status. In fact American businesses accept credit cards from international banks through VISA, or Master Card. It's really up to the banks to decide who gets a credit card or not, not the government.

Local businesses are paid by the bank regardless if a person is in debt or not. If the bank does not get the money from the credit card holder, they sell the account to a debt collection agency. The debt collection agency will do its best to break even or make a profit.

This debate is moot since most undocumented immigrants use cash to purchase goods and services in the United States which is estimated at $800 Billion annually into the US economy.

By the way,
Kicking everybody out would cost $48 Billion and would bankrupt the DHS.

[phoebus]

I believe that it's a bordeline fascist agenda to allow illegal immigrants enter a country, allow them to stay and have a chance of a better life in the expence of the native society. This is not how democratic nation/countries function.

They were born outside of those country's border so they'll have come in for a stay when they are invited, not crash the party, screw the prom queen and then ask from the rest to pay the bill. That's not Democracy and certainly if anybody did that in ancient Athens, would have himself turned into a slave and row the athenian fleet all the way to the colonies in Magna Grecia.

[phoebus]

Kicking everybody out would cost $48 Billion and would bankrupt the DHS.

No need to start kicking all of them, what needs to be done is stop this trend that is going to ruin the middle-class quality of life. And yet maybe for the sake of quality of life, culture and democracy it would be wiser to kick those people out, rather than try and impose the aformentined values in countries in the Middle East. Both is something you can never have.

[Jackal01400]

I have been working in construction for about 4 years now and worked with dozens of illegal immigrants. 1) Many did not know a word of english and some broken english. 2) American workers will take any job as long there a demand for the job and illegal wages are not implemented.



Listening to Michael Moore again I see...do a Google and find out the real figure.

As for this reply:

Why? It's a means to spend money that supports local businesses, thus paying sales and other taxes that supports your salary.

How many Criminal aliens do you think actual make the payments on their credit cards? Since they aren't giving permanent addresses or legal documents for billing they can effectively skip town without any redress by the companies that they "buy" products from. This ends up hurting local businesses and the citizens you believe are assisted from having ILLEGAL aliens with credit cards.


Bank of America is a corporation. A corporation in our society exists to make profit. How could a business generate maximum revenue if they just handed out money?... It wont. Hence, this is a corporate decision directed at making make a larger profit... and not an attempt to loose and destroy businesses.

[Jackal01400]

I believe that it's a bordeline fascist agenda to allow illegal immigrants enter a country, allow them to stay and have a chance of a better life in the expence of the native society. This is not how democratic nation/countries function.

Fascist...... are you sure?

[MaDuce]

God forbid Mexico takes responsibility for the welfare of their own people instead of using the border as a pressure realese valve.

[phoebus]

Fascist...... are you sure?

Borderline Fascist (as I said), cause it does have elements of totalitarianism, authoritarianism, mish-mash collectivism and corporatism.

Well I think it like this, who's letting those people in, disregarding the will of the majority of the citizens? That's imposing an opinion and policy on the society and allowing it to occur, without even asking the people and actually applying the current laws. Doesn't sound democratic, however it may be wrapped. Last time I remember such policies being applied, allowing movements of populations of that extent, were during the fascist occupation in Europe. I thought we went over that era and the respective concepts.

[CobraCommander]

Illegal immigration did wonders for the Pilgrims last time I checked. Really, what kind of job are you doing where it can be done by someone who doesn't speak English. I say enough with this "Dey Turk errr jerrrbs!" mentality and get a job where you won't be easily replaced.

[dedbunniez]

Illegal immigration did wonders for the Pilgrims last time I checked. Really, what kind of job are you doing where it can be done by someone who doesn't speak English. I say enough with this "Dey Turk errr jerrrbs!" mentality and get a job where you won't be easily replaced.

wow just wow

[RonsonJeremiah]

After reading what CobraCommander had to say, I now know why his forces always got the **** kicked out of them by G.I. Joe.

[LaoSexMachine]

Illegal immigration did wonders for the Pilgrims last time I checked. Really, what kind of job are you doing where it can be done by someone who doesn't speak English. I say enough with this "Dey Turk errr jerrrbs!" mentality and get a job where you won't be easily replaced.


The first Pilgrims went to the Home Depot parking lot and the Mayflower got swarmed.

[AZRON]

We will see what happens as the law goes into effect tomorrow.
Any trend that changes or follows will probably take 60-90 to verify.
Maybe Az. can lead the way and create it's own guest worker program too.
I'm of the opinion the individual states taking action is O.K. as the Feds one shoe fits all methods tend to be a future disaster. Let the individual states experiment and see what works and doesn't work along with lessons learned.

[Sasori]

Man if this is how mexicans are treated every where in the US wheter i am a citizen or illegal. I here by renounce my american citizenship and swim across the border. For one thing i dont think all the mexican of descent in the army appreciate the fact that our people are being so unwelcomed in our country.

Thats right i said my country for i was born and raised in this country by my parents which are legal citizens in this land. Then why would i want to live here and fight in the army for a land that hates me.

I never really tought that my country would hate me this much just for being of mexican descent.

I guess my service in the army as an MP was for not. But at least i did my job without any complaints on my part.

Let freedom Ring God Bless America.

[Kap]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

[Power_serj]

Don't play that crap. It's illegal Mexicans (and other illegals too) that many Americans despise, not the ones who are here legally.

The United States government needs to crack down on big buisnesses and franchises that employs illegal immigrants by implementing heavy fines, as well as finish the border fence for national security reasons and economic reasons. Therefore we won't need to kick out illegals out. Without some where to work, they will leave on thier own.

Someone is going to say that illegals help out economy. Bull! Thier earnings often go untaxed and sent back to Mexico. Perhaps it does help big buisness, however, how about our lower and middle class? They need jobs as well. Although buisnesses will, God forbid, have to pay thier employees minimum wage, since they are legal, it will help our economy. A citizen who gets this money will pay taxes and recycle the money into our economy by buying using the earned money in the United States, as a opposed to sending money off to another country.

For the first year or two of a federal crack down, there will be a lot of "my grass is tall, bring the illegals back." However, afterwards there will be more jobs for lower and middle class, there will be less illegal immigrants, less crime from those illegals leaving, and a better economy, as the money will be recycled to the government through taxes and recycled through spending the earnings in the United States.

[ronnieraygun]

Illegal immigration did wonders for the Pilgrims last time I checked. Really, what kind of job are you doing where it can be done by someone who doesn't speak English. I say enough with this "Dey Turk errr jerrrbs!" mentality and get a job where you won't be easily replaced.

What.in.the.world.

[Bia]

I like TacoBell

[Tokamak]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

You were disgusted because of the conditions they were living or because they were illegal immigrants?.

[Ordie]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

The right of sanctuary is a Christian tradition and norm since the fourth century. Regardless of status, they are your fellow Christians in need.

[Kap]

You were disgusted because of the conditions they were living or because they were illegal immigrants?.

Illegals, I never realized there was so many, even in far north states. Imagine roughly 250 in every church in the Twin Cities area. (and there is one on nearly every corner) That is A LOT of immigrants.

[shocker1]

Man if this is how mexicans are treated every where in the US wheter i am a citizen or illegal. I here by renounce my american citizenship and swim across the border. For one thing i dont think all the mexican of descent in the army appreciate the fact that our people are being so unwelcomed in our country.

Thats right i said my country for i was born and raised in this country by my parents which are legal citizens in this land. Then why would i want to live here and fight in the army for a land that hates me.

I never really tought that my country would hate me this much just for being of mexican descent.

I guess my service in the army as an MP was for not. But at least i did my job without any complaints on my part.

Let freedom Ring God Bless America.
What a rant, all I ask is for my Government to do it's job and enforce the law, while being practical instead of political about a duty the Federal Government is solely responsible for. You should think the same way, being a red blooded American of Mexican decent who was an MP who enforced military code.

When you say our/my people do you mean Americans or Mexicans?

[Tokamak]

Illegals, I never realized there was so many, even in far north states. Imagine roughly 250 in every church in the Twin Cities area. (and there is one on nearly every corner) That is A LOT of immigrants.

But to feel disgusted?

[ronnieraygun]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

You can't be serious. Try south Minneapolis, Richfield, Bloomington, Willmar, Renville, etc. -Pretty much everywhere. Every small town outstate with a major food processing or agribusiness operation has a sizable population of illegals. Minnesota does a good job of sweeping it under the rug is all.

[ed316]

Man if this is how mexicans are treated every where in the US wheter i am a citizen or illegal. I here by renounce my american citizenship and swim across the border. For one thing i dont think all the mexican of descent in the army appreciate the fact that our people are being so unwelcomed in our country.

Thats right i said my country for i was born and raised in this country by my parents which are legal citizens in this land. Then why would i want to live here and fight in the army for a land that hates me.

I never really tought that my country would hate me this much just for being of mexican descent.

I guess my service in the army as an MP was for not. But at least i did my job without any complaints on my part.

Let freedom Ring God Bless America.

Simma down with the nationalistic pride. It's about ILLEGALS.

[Ordie]

Someone is going to say that illegals help out economy. Bull! Thier earnings often go untaxed and sent back to Mexico.

Your assumptions are incorrect.

Undocumented immigrants bring in three times the revenue and send 10% back to thier home countries. The 90% are spent locally on goods, services and yes taxes. (fees, property, sales, income)

The cost in deporting all undocumented immigrants is higher than the revenues gained in keeping them here.

The only natural means to mitigate immigration into this country is a recession and an increase of economic growth, economic liberalization policies and international investment in other countries.

Looking at the economic forecast, Mexico's GDP growth may exceed to that of the US. US based companies are more immune to a US recession because the majority of thier revenues comes from overseas markets.

So at the end of the day, don't be surprised to see stockyards in Nebraska re-locate to Northern Mexico, and pre-fabricated building units being manufactured in elsewhere. Already a good percentage of produce sold at Costco or Sam's Town are imported from abroad.

So you may get your wish, but I highly doubt the middle income blue collar jobs will re-materialize. And I highly doubt US companies are willing to invest capital in creating new jobs when it could be done more cheaply overseas.

Prosecute and fine the companies? At this point its cheaper to close and relocate. We'll see what the employers of Arizona will do. New Mexico or Sonora are optional locations.

All this anti-undocumented immigrant rehtoric will eventually backfire because it will cost the Hispanic votes in the presidential elections.

For many Hispanic voters they will equate anti-undocumented immigrant policies as anti-Hispanic policies.

The two may exclusive but the perception is there. In any elections, perceptions somehow morphs into reality in people's minds.

[Ordie]

Illegals, I never realized there was so many, even in far north states. Imagine roughly 250 in every church in the Twin Cities area. (and there is one on nearly every corner) That is A LOT of immigrants.

The Minnesota economy must be doing well then.

[shocker1]

All this anti-undocumented immigrant rehtoric will eventually backfire because it will cost the Hispanic votes in the presidential elections.
.
Those without documents are gonna hold the voting gun to our heads. Better appease or feel the guilt and deal with the high priced produce.:|

[Sasori]

i any one out there feels disguise for illegal people in the US that how i feel towards most american teenagers and there customs. I feel sick when i see how these kids disrespect there parents and show no pride towards this country and what it used to stand for.

When i said my people its mexican there my people as it says in my birth certificate i am mexican descent born in texas. So i am there fore mexican. American is a status quo of a nation.

i dont know what is the big deal about immigration to all of you out there what do you care personally. Blame the goverment for making it so easy for middle easterners and north africans to get into the country so easliy there the real threat to national security.

not some half starved poor son of a gun from central america.

[i_heart_menthols]

When i said my people its mexican there my people as it says in my birth certificate i am mexican descent born in texas. So i am there fore mexican. American is a status quo of a nation.

Uh, okay. That makes sense.


i dont know what is the big deal about immigration to all of you out there what do you care personally. Blame the goverment for making it so easy for middle easterners and north africans to get into the country so easliy there the real threat to national security.

not some half starved poor son of a gun from central america.Oh, so it's the other immigrants who are the problem. I get it.

As for your security threat comment, well, care to take a stab (no pun intended) at how many Americans are murdered / raped / assaulted / had their neighborhood destroyed by illegal immigrants from Latin America every year v. North Africa / The Middle East? And that's with terrorism included. I'd say that your "people" are a much bigger threat to my neighbors and I than just about anyone else right now.

[ronnieraygun]

i dont know what is the big deal about immigration to all of you out there what do you care personally.

It's an election year. Immigrants are easy scapegoats.

Just because someone has a political opinion does not make it personal. The personal is political only for Marxists and there are none on this site.

[Ordie]

Uh, okay. That makes sense.

Oh, so it's the other immigrants who are the problem. I get it.

As for your security threat comment, well, care to take a stab (no pun intended) at how many Americans are murdered / raped / assaulted / had their neighborhood destroyed by illegal immigrants from Latin America every year v. North Africa?

There was this case about 19 legal immigrants from the Middle East who hijacked four airliners that killed 2,999 people on September 11, 2001

[Tokamak]

I only hope Mexico and the rest of the other countires growth strong enough so their citizens don't have to travel to another country to find an opportunity. In that way everybody will be happy, the US will be without a large number of immigrants and cheap labour.

[ronnieraygun]

The Minnesota economy must be doing well then.

A lot of undocumented labor in rural areas does not necessarily mean the economy is doing well. It means some corporate agribusiness entity is able to operate cheaply, but that's about it. The money earned by workers gets sent out of the community as remittances to their country of origin and they rarely stay in the community for more than several years, so the rural economies continue to implode.

[Sasori]

Uh, okay. That makes sense.

Oh, so it's the other immigrants who are the problem. I get it.

As for your security threat comment, well, care to take a stab (no pun intended) at how many Americans are murdered / raped / assaulted / had their neighborhood destroyed by illegal immigrants from Latin America every year v. North Africa / The Middle East? And that's with terrorism included. I'd say that your "people" are a much bigger threat to my neighbors and I than just about anyone else right now.



so it seems that most americans hold some grudge towards mexicans for the fact that were still here and havent been absorbed by the american culture like so many other immigrant groups have over the last century. Thats the whole deal americans are affraid mexico will some day become military strong enough and with enough of its people with in the US will invade and crush america.

kinda like in ww2 with the japanese and the fear of sabotage in the western coast.

[Raptus_regaliter]

Yes yes. America will be crushed like so many foam peanuts. Que viva la revolucion!

[shocker1]

so it seems that most americans hold some grudge towards mexicans for the fact that were still here and havent been absorbed by the american culture like so many other immigrant groups have over the last century. Thats the whole deal americans are affraid mexico will some day become military strong enough and with enough of its people with in the US will invade and crush america.

kinda like in ww2 with the japanese and the fear of sabotage in the western coast.
Who are these Americans you speak of? Who paints with the broad brush again? When will Ordie call this xenophobic?

[Sasori]

that will be the day. ITs like cutting off your own right hand mexico would never cut off one of its more reliable sources of tech and money like that.


mostly paranoid ranchers in southern texas and thru the southwest.

[ronnieraygun]

so it seems that most americans hold some grudge towards mexicans for the fact that were still here and havent been absorbed by the american culture like so many other immigrant groups have over the last century. Thats the whole deal americans are affraid mexico will some day become military strong enough and with enough of its people with in the US will invade and crush america.

kinda like in ww2 with the japanese and the fear of sabotage in the western coast.

No. Just no. You were in the Army and you actually think like this?

[Ordie]

A lot of undocumented labor in rural areas does not necessarily mean the economy is doing well. It means some corporate agribusiness entity is able to operate cheaply, but that's about it. The money earned by workers gets sent out of the community as remittances to their country of origin and they rarely stay in the community for more than several years, so the rural economies continue to implode.

Are these farms subsidized by the Feds?

2008 does not look good for Minnesota thanks the the sub-prime market however North and South Dakota economies are expected to grow thanks to oil and ethanol production. Expect immigrant workers to follow the money trail into the Dakotas.

[ronnieraygun]

Are these farms subsidized by the Feds?

2008 does not look good for Minnesota thanks the the sub-prime market however North and South Dakota economies are expected to grow thanks to oil and ethanol production. Expect immigrant workers to follow the money trail into the Dakotas.

Well, when I was referring to the processing/agribusiness plants (beet plant in Renville, Jennie-O in Willmar, those types of places) I did not mean farms.

I agree about the Dakotas. I can't stand the place but change will be in the air, for sure.

As usual, you are well-read on things and you have a lot of insight. They should pimp you out for an issues op-ed site or something. However, I know you are the fourth man in the tiger taunting incident and I hope they get you.

[Ordie]

so it seems that most americans hold some grudge towards mexicans for the fact that were still here and havent been absorbed by the american culture like so many other immigrant groups have over the last century. Thats the whole deal americans are affraid mexico will some day become military strong enough and with enough of its people with in the US will invade and crush america.

kinda like in ww2 with the japanese and the fear of sabotage in the western coast.

That's a little bit overboard.

It's like saying America's Anglo-Protestant-African-Catholic-Indian-German-Irish-Jewish-Italian-Slavic-Asian society in danger of Hispanicization.

[Ordie]

However, I know you are the fourth man in the tiger taunting incident and I hope they get you.

The Como Park Zoo will be my next target and I'll hide in the Conservatory to make the experience as real as possible.

[Sasori]

but it just seems that the immigrants just refuse to learn english and hold strong to there traditions. Look around you there is a lot more hispanic influence in every day america in the restaurants and in tv.

[Ordie]

but it just seems that the immigrants just refuse to learn english and hold strong to there traditions. Look around you there is a lot more hispanic influence in every day america in the restaurants and in tv.

But the majority knows that without English there's no upward mobility and increased income. I've seen some using children's Leapfrog devices teaching themselves on buses and trains.

If you're bi-lingual, you're worth your weight in gold. Either at home or abroad.

[Sasori]

i know what you mean i can speak and write both english and spanish fluently and without any real problems. It helps alot with work especially.

[Tokamak]

but it just seems that the immigrants just refuse to learn english and hold strong to there traditions. Look around you there is a lot more hispanic influence in every day america in the restaurants and in tv.

Sometimes I wonder how good is that all those people hold to their traditions without embracing the traditions of their new home. In the UK I have found myself amazed on how much Muslims reject the western way of life. This has produced a clear segregation in the city where I live. To believe that all your traditions are great and should remain intact is wrong. You can always learn something good and better from other cultures.

[Ordie]

Sometimes I wonder how good is that all those people hold to their traditions without embracing the traditions of their new home. In the UK I have found myself amazed on how much Muslims reject the western way of life. This has produced a clear segregation in the city where I live. To believe that all your traditions are great and should remain intact is wrong. You can always learn something good and better from other cultures.


Ideally different people are rqual before the law but also are free to maintain thier preferred social and cultural norms.

The problem in the UK is that the right to be different is supported without risking legal and economic power. Therefore immigrants especially women may be at a disadvantage if they try to escape the repressive norms of dowry, arraigned marriage, servitude, and social obligations.

[Felix U. Gómez]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

And you could automatically tell that they were all illegal because they had badges identifying them as so or were they just wearing t-shirts that said Proud to be an Illegal Alien? Or maybe it was just because of their skin color that you made the deduction?

[-peacemaker-]

And you could automatically tell that they were all illegal because they had badges identifying them as so or were they just wearing t-shirts that said Proud to be an Illegal Alien? Or maybe it was just because of their skin color that you made the deduction?
In your observation, therein lies the problem. Much of this debate is not about legal or illegal, it really is a racial and cultural issue. This is a recurring theme in U.S. history. Nowadays it is masqueraded as a legal issue, however in the past it was quite openly discussed as a racial issue.

As you observed how did that poster know that the 250 or so people in that church were illegal? Did he ask? Maybe he did, I don't know, but I have met many others who look at a person who is hispanic and assume that they're illegal. For example people standing at home depot looking for work, many would assume that they are illegals. Why? Perhaps because of the color of their skin? The thought process goes something along these lines: "they looks mexican, sounds mexican, heck they're not American they must be illegals"

[Felix U. Gómez]

Those without documents are gonna hold the voting gun to our heads. Better appease or feel the guilt and deal with the high priced produce.:|

So you immediately assume that all Hispanics in the U.S. are undocumented? Believe me, the approach that Republican politicians have taken on the immigration issue WILL come back and bite them in the rear in this election. The Hispanic vote will be a determining factor this year and it will strongly (like at no other time in history) not be on the Republican side.

[Shadowstorm]

I only hope Mexico and the rest of the other countires growth strong enough so their citizens don't have to travel to another country to find an opportunity. In that way everybody will be happy, the US will be without a large number of immigrants and cheap labour.
Yeah, I agree with you their. Mexico economy is growing and is getting better even with problems going on in Mexico. So pretty soon they will be going back.

[shocker1]

So you immediately assume that all Hispanics in the U.S. are undocumented? .
I should not even dignify this with a response. Other than to say you are a tool and direct the debate where it should be.. Ordie's use of the phrase "anti-undocumented immigration" is the issue. As if undocumented immigration is a thing to support. Then again where in the hell did I say all Hispanic are undocumented?

[Ordie]

The whole immigration debate is all about misperceptions from all sides. And misperceptions will sway voters.

Alex Gomez may be correct in his assumptions based from the California Immigration debates a decade ago.

The passage of propositions 182 and 187 in the 1990's allowed then GOP Governor Pete Wilson to get re-elected, but also led to the groundswell of mass naturalization and voter registration effort of Hispanics who became registered Democrats.

Since that period, California has been a solid Blue state. Despite his GOP label, Schwarzenneger won as a Democrat with Democratic staffers. The same "California effect" may reach at the national level.

Bush won with 40% of the Hispanic voters. That number is now projected to be 20%. With two close back to back presidential elections, no canidate should take the Hispanic votes for granted. Especially in swing states such as Nevada and New Mexico.

The immigration issue is the "neutron bomb" for the GOP. They may win now, but lose subsequent elections.

Just like California

[Dragunov]

So are they also going to Ban Tequila, Coronas, Mexican restaurants, and Oil from Mexico in Arizona? That would suck dude.

[Ordie]

So are they also going to Ban Tequila, Coronas, Mexican restaurants, and Oil from Mexico in Arizona? That would suck dude.

Not really.

The worst would be cities adopting English only laws. Which are unenforcible. It would mean the change of place names including La Paz, Maricopa and Santa Cruz counties.

Not to mention changing Navajo, Ute, Hopi and Apache place names as well.

Though there might be a case of Dominican baseball players taking jobs away from American players during Spring training tryouts in Arizona.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I should not even dignify this with a response. Other than to say you are a tool and direct the debate where it should be.. Ordie's use of the phrase "anti-undocumented immigration" is the issue. As if undocumented immigration is a thing to support. Then again where in the hell did I say all Hispanic are undocumented?

Maybe you should learn to express yourself more clearly if you do not want to be misunderstood. Ordie said that the anti-undocumented immigration stance adopted by the Republicans would result in a negative backlash from Hispanic voters which I believe will happen. You responded "Those without documents are gonna hold the voting gun to our heads". That could be translated into Hispanic voters are without documents, thus you are saying that they are illegal and since you are not saying some, then they all are, according to you.

[shocker1]

Well excuse me, would not want to offend a Hispanic with a misunderstanding. A negative backlash from wanting an end to undocumented immigration? So the right position is pro-undocumented immigration? Do Republicans need to ignore the issue or support undocumented immigration to woo the Hispanic vote?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Regardless of what you say, there will be a backlash.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Well excuse me, would not want to offend a Hispanic with a misunderstanding. A negative backlash from wanting an end to undocumented immigration? So the right position is pro-undocumented immigration? Do Republicans need to ignore the issue or support undocumented immigration to woo the Hispanic vote?

Democrats seem to have a better grasp of the problem since they are not thinking with their stomach. They agree, it is a problem and it has to end, but part of the real solution is to help Mexico to develop more jobs there thus eliminating the need for migration. All I see from the republicans are phrases like disgust and hate, that will surely woo Hispanic votes for the Republicans.

[shocker1]

So regardless of right or wrong, Republicans must ignore or support illegal(undocumented)immigration to avoid a backlash from Hispanic voters. In short it is not about right or wrong is it. Kinda like blackmail, at least this fits into American politics.

I totally agree with you on helping Mexico, we seem to send our assistance money and efforts over seas when our long time neighbor needs help. I am afraid corporate interest would rather further the problem as the exploitation of labor is profitable.

[Sasori]

I truly hope that the US finally resolves the illegal issue and help mexico with its drug cartel problem and finally end the illegal drug trade that is hindering a lot of potential business ventures in mexico that will open up more jobs in mexico and thus help end both immigration problem and the illegal drug traffiking that is the fault of the US for its love of narcotics.

So that way you can kill two birds with one stone. Most mexicans that immigraite to the US dont really want to leave mexico other than for the old mighty dollar buying power.

[Felix U. Gómez]

A while ago when churches were "housing" illegals I never knew there were illegals in Minnesota until I went to a church and found like 250 of them. I was pretty disgusted.

Part of the problem lies in that many of those on the side of "legality" have turned it into a racist, xenophobic crusade whereby a socio-economic issue which has existed for more than a century all of a sudden has become into the most important problem faced by the U.S. today. Things like expressing a feeling of disgust because one walks into a church and sees people of a different skin color don't help.

[Felix U. Gómez]

I truly hope that the US finally resolves the illegal issue and help mexico with its drug cartel problem and finally end the illegal drug trade that is hindering a lot of potential business ventures in mexico that will open up more jobs in mexico and thus help end both immigration problem and the illegal drug traffiking that is the fault of the US for its love of narcotics.

So that way you can kill two birds with one stone. Most mexicans that immigraite to the US dont really want to leave mexico other than for the old mighty dollar buying power.

Part of the problem is that many in the U.S. think that drugs are solely Mexico's problem when the U.S. is half guilty for providing the demand and money.

[shocker1]

Mexico has everything, resources, climate, awesome beaches, tropical breezes, culture and history. All they need is a government that at least does enough good to look good. The people can do the rest.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Mexico has everything, resources, climate, awesome beaches, tropical breezes, culture and history. All they need is a government that at least does enough good to look good. The people can do the rest.

Right now Mexico has an excellent government, however some people think that problems can be solved over-night. Maybe the U.S. could give Mexico some tips on how it has managed to turn around the Iraqi problem, including how they have managed to make Iraq's economy into one of the strongest emerging miracle economies of the world in such a short time-span?

[shocker1]

Time will tell on the current government. As an employer myself my big problem is with American employers not obeying the rules. Illegal immigrants in my opinion are not the problem but a symptom of Americans breaking the law. That is what no one in DC seems to want to crack down on. I have a poster board with workers rights, labor laws, ect. Every business with one or more employees must have one or a place for workers to see them. Illegal employment violates most of everything on that board that I adhere to. That is what angers me the most.

[Sasori]

complain to your congressman thats the only way its going to change if they start giving big corporations such as the meat packing industry such lee way with who they hire in the packing houses that will end illegal immigration if there is no work for them in the first place.

There is no point in blaming immigrants for what they have to do to survive. The same can be said for hobbos in the US; They seem perfectly fine how come they dont get off there butts and get a job. Just like that you got an extra work force out of the homeless.

The goverment in mexico at the moment is probably the best it has ever had and probably the best goverment in all of latin america at the moment.

so dont bs about the mexican goverment not all illegals come from mexico most come from central or south america and most of them hate the US.

[Kap]

Part of the problem lies in that many of those on the side of "legality" have turned it into a racist, xenophobic crusade whereby a socio-economic issue which has existed for more than a century all of a sudden has become into the most important problem faced by the U.S. today. Things like expressing a feeling of disgust because one walks into a church and sees people of a different skin color don't help.


That's not why I was disgusted, I was disgusted because I knew they were all illegals because a "sister" told me.


I am far from rascist. The church could of been packed full of white or black illegals and I would of been just as disgusted.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Sure. :roll:

You forgot to add the part where you say that you actually love Mexicans or that some of your best friends are Mexican. That always causes a good impression... on the most naive.

[Shadowstorm]

In your observation, therein lies the problem. Much of this debate is not about legal or illegal, it really is a racial and cultural issue. This is a recurring theme in U.S. history. Nowadays it is masqueraded as a legal issue, however in the past it was quite openly discussed as a racial issue.

As you observed how did that poster know that the 250 or so people in that church were illegal? Did he ask? Maybe he did, I don't know, but I have met many others who look at a person who is hispanic and assume that they're illegal. For example people standing at home depot looking for work, many would assume that they are illegals. Why? Perhaps because of the color of their skin? The thought process goes something along these lines: "they looks mexican, sounds mexican, heck they're not American they must be illegals"
Yeah, I agree, this stereotyping crap is really getting old and ridiculous. They think every Mexican or Latino is illegal immigrant and really this is not true, but got some of these clowns in the media and internet who talking this crap and still getting away with this. People like this needs to grow up, because this crap is getting old.

[Sasori]

That is so true what next is going to be on the racist or discrimination of a minority. For all we know the next group of people to be discriminated against might be white people.

If mexicans become the majority then they will be the minority.

Before any one starts screaming bloody murder about what i just wrote up there think about this saying.

To walk a mile in another mans shoes to see it from his point of view. Then can some one truly feel how they feel.

[shocker1]

All I get from this debate is people being accused of or prejudged with racism, xenophobia or some bull****. That is what I am sick of, the color crutch. Time to stop that **** right here. When the legal argument is lost, the racism issue is brought in. Why is this? Is it the color of my skin?

[Ordie]

Do Republicans need to ignore the issue or support undocumented immigration to woo the Hispanic vote?

No, they need to promote immigration reform. Make it more consistant, efficient and equitable. They also need to make it more secure.

The system we have today is very bureaucratic and is a detrement to our economy.

What Bush proposed was good.

[Sasori]

they should allow a guest worker program for all immigrants. But if they have familys and kids that are born here they should be allowed to stay but follow the rules of the guest worker program and not get into any problems or they get canned out of the country. Instead of trying to get a whole reform were they get there residency or citizenship. I say and propose they be given a guest worker pass at best and then they should go thru the whole process to become legal.

thats how it should be.

[Felix U. Gómez]

All I get from this debate is people being accused of or prejudged with racism, xenophobia or some bull****. That is what I am sick of, the color crutch. Time to stop that **** right here. When the legal argument is lost, the racism issue is brought in. Why is this? Is it the color of my skin?

It is a particular sign of our times that when a racist is called a racist he accuses the other of using the race card and of having no argument. It's a sort of verbal judo move. I'm sick of that bull***t. When someone says that he is disgusted just by the sight of a group of individuals of which he knows nothing but that they are of a particular ethnic group, then he's a racist, plain and simple. Let's call things by what they are and stop trying to sugar coat them.

[Miles.]

These arguments always degenerate into accusations of racism.


Spiraling education and medical costs are due, in part, to illegal Mexican immigration.

And, the whole principle that laws should be enforced, or repealed if they aren't going to be enforced.



Other than that, I love Mexican immigrants. They are Christian, work hard, and for the most part, they raise their kids to be the same way.

[shocker1]

It is a particular sign of our times that when a racist is called a racist he accuses the other of using the race card and of having no argument. It's a sort of verbal judo move. I'm sick of that bull***t. When someone says that he is disgusted just by the sight of a group of individuals of which he knows nothing but that they are of a particular ethnic group, then he's a racist, plain and simple. Let's call things by what they are and stop trying to sugar coat them.
Whatever dude. The issue is not about race. Obey American law, if that request is viewed as racist by foreign persons in this country illegally then they surely have some sort of complex. I also hope your insinuations are not directed at me because accusing me of racism will only cause trouble. If you are directing it at Kaptein, how about cutting some slack to someone in Minnesota going into a church full of Spanish speaking folks thinking they are illegals. I mean damn son Minnesota? You then proceeded to dismiss Kaptein explanation to do some more racial accusations. To me you are the one with the race issue here.

[Power_serj]

they should allow a guest worker program for all immigrants. But if they have familys and kids that are born here they should be allowed to stay but follow the rules of the guest worker program and not get into any problems or they get canned out of the country. Instead of trying to get a whole reform were they get there residency or citizenship. I say and propose they be given a guest worker pass at best and then they should go thru the whole process to become legal.

thats how it should be.




Guest Worker Program would work except not how you describe it.


My Idea for Illegal Immigration Reform containing Guest Worker Program
First, the United States needs to make a small government group run by the federal government to make sure that the states crack down on employers hiring illegals. This crackdown would be aimed towards big buisness and franchise employing illegals. Those who are caught must pay heavy, heavy fines where it will send a message to other companies.
At the same time the crackdown begins, they must put up the electronic and physical border fence on both borders, which would be run by a federally funded border patrol so that potential terrorists cannot enter. Without jobs, the illegals will leave by themselves, as proven in Arizona. With the fence, it will also be harder for any more to enter.
The Guest Worker portion of my idea for (illegal) immigration reform would allow former illegal immigrants who left on their own to apply for a Guest Worker Visa. This would get these former illegals to pay taxes such as payroll tax and would not be exempt from paying Social Security or Medicare tax even though they would not be eligable for such programs. Also, for these former illegals, their employers would be required to pay their Guest Workers at least minimum wage.
Penalties for abusing and misusing the GW Visa would be a jail sentence to be determined by the courts depending on seriousness of violation and would delay or completely end the individuals' right to enter the country. Any person in the Guest Worker program would be eligible for a green card and citizenship just like anyone else. These guest workers would be required to carry ID at all times, and would also be eligible for a drivers license. Anyone found here illegally without ever having had a Guest Worker Visa or any other admittance through our borders would be jailed, and sentences as a common criminal and not allowed ever to enter the country. Same goes for anyone committing a felony while using a Guest Worker Visa.

[Shadowstorm]

The wall is just a waste of time and money and they'll find other ways to get into this country. And like I said earlier, Mexico's economy is growing and getting better. So in the next few years you will see a slowdown of immigrants from Mexico both legal and illegal and more going back.

[Felix U. Gómez]

At the same time the crackdown begins, they must put up the electronic and physical border fence on both borders, which would be run by a federally funded border patrol so that potential terrorists cannot enter. Without jobs, the illegals will leave by themselves, as proven in Arizona. With the fence, it will also be harder for any more to enter.

One, I don't really like your plan, its too draconian. if someone else applied a plan like that within their country the US would be first to point their finger at them and yell human rights violation.
Two, you speak of what's happening in Arizona as if it has been a total success and the truth is that it is too soon to say anything. There have been economists that predict that it will hurt Arizona's economy more than it will help, in which case we might see a going back to the past in the near future. Besides, people are very resourceful and given time they find ways of circumventing inconvenient and impractical laws.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Whatever dude. The issue is not about race. Obey American law, if that request is viewed as racist by foreign persons in this country illegally then they surely have some sort of complex. I also hope your insinuations are not directed at me because accusing me of racism will only cause trouble. If you are directing it at Kaptein, how about cutting some slack to someone in Minnesota going into a church full of Spanish speaking folks thinking they are illegals. I mean damn son Minnesota? You then proceeded to dismiss Kaptein explanation to do some more racial accusations. To me you are the one with the race issue here.

Whatever yourself dude. There are many examples of groups identified as being racist that are well involved in this movement. You will never convince me of that. As for accusing you of being racist you should learn to read your own language. Tell me where I did. As for Kaptein, I don't care where he's from, he should learn to choose his words more carefully. Did you know that Mexicans account for one of the largest group of foreign tourists in the US? Of course you didn't. My question again is how did he know that they were illegal? He never mentioned that they were speaking Spanish did he? And if they were, that still doesn't mean that they were illegal or for that matter from Mexico. He seems to assume a lot about people doesn't he? That is called being prejudiced no, to assume something about a particular group of people without knowing the facts? About a month ago my mother went to visit an old old friend that lives in Philadelphia, knowing her she probably spoke a lot of Spanish wherever they went. I guess that a lot of people must have inferred that she must have been an illegal because of that, and I guess that that must be OK, right?

[shocker1]

Just as you yourself prejudged her based on one post without even having the experience of the moment yourself. You are prejudice in your on right. Typical circular racial back and forth with this issue every time. I am done.

[Felix U. Gómez]

No I'm not, you are.

[Miles.]

Whatever yourself dude. There are many examples of groups identified as being racist that are well involved in this movement. You will never convince me of that. As for accusing you of being racist you should learn to read your own language. Tell me where I did. As for Kaptein, I don't care where he's from, he should learn to choose his words more carefully. Did you know that Mexicans account for one of the largest group of foreign tourists in the US? Of course you didn't. My question again is how did he know that they were illegal? He never mentioned that they were speaking Spanish did he? And if they were, that still doesn't mean that they were illegal or for that matter from Mexico. He seems to assume a lot about people doesn't he? That is called being prejudiced no, to assume something about a particular group of people without knowing the facts? About a month ago my mother went to visit an old old friend that lives in Philadelphia, knowing her she probably spoke a lot of Spanish wherever they went. I guess that a lot of people must have inferred that she must have been an illegal because of that, and I guess that that must be OK, right?

I'm sorry, but I think this is more a collection of words than a coherent thought.

Come on, man. Your mom and what Americans think of her citizenship? My guess is no one thought much of her at all, in any way.



And as far as what people know or don't know, I've found it is best to not make assumptions.

[Power_serj]

That's the biggest bs, saying that illegals leaving will hurt the economy. Immediately, it will her small buisness, but whos at fault? The buisnesses wo hired the illegals are the ones at fault, so I give no sympathy.

People say that Americans are unwilling to do jobs that Mexican illegals are willing to do. My answer to that is: BS! We have a large amount of lower class income people to fill these jobs that these companies are hiring illegal immigrants are doing. The only difference is, God forbid, the companies will have to actually have to pay minimum wage.

For the first year or two us Americans will suffer the consequences of illegal hard laborers.....and the consequences are tall grass. Also Americans that do the job will help the economy. They will pay taxes and buy product in the United States, as opposed to sending money to another country, which is what many illegals are doing. Buying products in the United States will recycle American dollars into the economy, helping the economy in the long term, which is what's more important than short term expenses such as putting up a border fence and commencing a crackdown and establishing a Guest Worker Program, which will pay for itself within a matter of a few years.

[shocker1]

No I'm not, you are.
So you're assuming I am prejudice? Why don't you just let all those feelings out right here?

I tell ya you are some assuming champion.

Did you know that Mexicans account for one of the largest group of foreign tourists in the US? Of course you didn't.

[Felix U. Gómez]

That's the biggest bs, saying that illegals leaving will hurt the economy. Immediately, it will her small buisness, but whos at fault? The buisnesses wo hired the illegals are the ones at fault, so I give no sympathy.

People say that Americans are unwilling to do jobs that Mexican illegals are willing to do. My answer to that is: BS! We have a large amount of lower class income people to fill these jobs that these companies are hiring illegal immigrants are doing. The only difference is, God forbid, the companies will have to actually have to pay minimum wage.


It has been said by US economists and your own president. I suppose that your credentials are better than theirs?
As for those US citizens of lower class income that you mention that could do the jobs, I've seen them, they usually hang around the freeway asking for handouts and carrying signs that say "Vet, passing through, will work for money. God bless." Somehow, I don't think that they will cut it.
The other thing is that undocumented aliens aren't really taking anyone's job. Unemployment in the US is very low and for the most part those that aren't working are not doing so because they don't want to.

[shocker1]

As for those US citizens of lower class income that you mention that could do the jobs, I've seen them, they usually hang around the freeway asking for handouts and carrying signs that say "Vet, passing through, will work for money. God bless." Somehow, I don't think that they will cut it.
The other thing is that undocumented aliens aren't really taking anyone's job. Unemployment in the US is very low and for the most part those that aren't working are not doing so because they don't want to.
So you are assuming some poor homeless vet or supposed vet on the highway is a worthless piece of **** that want do those jobs illegal aliens do. I am getting really tired of your prejudice. Judging people you see on the side of the freeway and using that as a blanket judgment on all low income Americans seeking help. Thank you for posting this clear definition of yourself.

BTW those signs always say "Will work for food"

[Felix U. Gómez]

Well, one, I thought you said that you were done. Apparently you can't keep your word. Two, it is just the plain truth and it hurts, I know. As for working for food, the signs do say that, but I'd like to see if you could get them to do that. You might have better luck if you offered them beer. rofl

[shocker1]

I am done discussing immigration with you. However blatantly retarded and prejudice posts like your's require more posts. These do not discuss immigration but rather your prejudicial issues. This is ok.

So now you have insinuated that I am a racist, prejudice and a liar. Anything else before I continue?

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yes, is that a real picture of you in your avatar? It sounds like it.

[shocker1]

Oh wow that is really lame, now it comes down to insulting avatars. How old are you 12? This is really a waste of my mental powers now, my points are proven with your posts so I am satisfied with that.

[Miles.]

This joker's responses remind me of another member's style.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=89921&highlight=mexican+flag+post+office

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=9355

[Hollis]

Seems like several are getting their collective knickers in a twist. I am going to lock the thread, maybe tomorrow I will reopen it.


OK, I'll open it at the request of those who were not in the flame-a-ton.

WARNING, Continue to bait or flame each will result in Infractions and or Holidays from here.

Thanks, Keep it Civil.

[Tokamak]

Is there an estimate of how many illegal immigrants are actually working in the US? I would guess in the order of millions?. Is there an estimation how much damage would cost to the US economy the lost of those cheap jobs plus the money to send those illegals home?.

Ordie mentioned $48 Billion, is this the cost of only sending them home?

By the way I know most of the illegal immigrants are Mexicans but to speak only of Mexicans when referring to illegals is not right.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Spiraling education and medical costs are due, in part, to illegal Mexican immigration.


In a very minor way. They are mostly due to greedy insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry which by the way have many U.S. politicians in their pockets.

[Ordie]

Is there an estimate of how many illegal immigrants are actually working in the US?

By the way I know most of the illegal immigrants are Mexicans but to speak only of Mexicans when referring to illegals is not right.


11 million
40% visa overstays

[Tokamak]

11 million
40% visa overstays

Do you know how many Americans are currently unemployed?.

40% I didn't know it was that high. I have the idea that the US only gives visas to either well educated people or those with good financial resources.

[Miles.]

In a very minor way. They are mostly due to greedy insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry which by the way have many U.S. politicians in their pockets.

What's greedy about charging market price for the goods and services you offer?


You make a lot of excuses.


What happens when a lot of people who use those goods or services don't pay? Costs go up.

[Ordie]

Do you know how many Americans are currently unemployed?.

40% I didn't know it was that high. I have the idea that the US only gives visas to either well educated people or those with good financial resources.

Current unemployment rate is at 5.5% anything below 4% are considered unemployable for a various reasons. Estimated 7.7 Million unemployed (US Population: 300 Million).

Visa are given for a variety of reasons (education, tourism, business, employment and family) Some countries have visa waivers with the US but are only required to stay for a limited time.

Many of the visa overstays can be easily tracked and deported. However the DHS has only 50 agents dedicated to this task and are focused on seeking AQ suspects. Sometimes the home country refuses to take back its own citizens.

[Ordie]

What happens when a lot of people who use those goods or services don't pay? Costs go up.

Drug companies have a limited time from R&D to the expriation of patents rights to break even or make a profit. I believe that after 7 years, the drug becomes generic. This is why drug companies are directly marketing to people and give generous goodies to MD's to push thier products.

The price of any product, goods and services is set by the company.

[Shadowstorm]

11 million
40% visa overstays
I agree on that.That's another reason why the border wall is way of money. People will start coming in here with Visas and just stay here without worrying about people coming after them, because their busy finding criminals and terrorist.

[Createdeemcee]

Yeahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont come to Maryland!

[Felix U. Gómez]

What's greedy about charging market price for the goods and services you offer?


You make a lot of excuses.


What happens when a lot of people who use those goods or services don't pay? Costs go up.

You like defending the undefendable. I live on the border and you don't. On a daily basis you can see hordes of un-ensured U.S. citizens (because they can't afford the ensurance rates) walk across the border into Mexico to buy the medications that they need to live. They buy the exact same medications that they would buy in the U.S., but at a fraction of the cost. The medications are made by the same multinational companies and are sold at a much cheaper price. These companies are not charities, they sell their products in Mexico and still bring in a profit. Explain how come they cost 2, 3, 4, 5, or more than 10 times more in the states. Because of greed, and because they can get away with it over there.
U.S. citizens also buy their medications in Canada and Europe, those are just plain truths.

[clean]

12-15 million illegal immigrants, taxing the infrastructure of the country. Yet not paying any taxes to fund the strengthening or rebuilding of the infrastructure. Rolling black outs, pollution, rivers, streams, oceans polluted, ERs crowded, public services ineffective. This is not due to illegal immigration, but it's certainly not helping.

[Shadowstorm]

12-15 million illegal immigrants, taxing the infrastructure of the country. Yet not paying any taxes to fund the strengthening or rebuilding of the infrastructure. Rolling black outs, pollution, rivers, streams, oceans polluted, ERs crowded, public services ineffective. This is not due to illegal immigration, but it's certainly not helping.
This has to be stupidest post I had seen a longtime. What the heck does infrastructure, pollution and rolling black outs have to with immigration.

[clean]

This has to be stupidest post I had seen a longtime. What the heck does infrastructure, pollution and rolling black outs have to with immigration.

Everything.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Yes, and you forgot global warming, the war in Iraq, AIDS, the fall of the Iron Curtain, the writers' strike, the sinking of the Titanic, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the space shuttle explotion, etc., etc. :roll:

[clean]

Take out the writers strike and the space shuttle, and you're with me.

First of all, not against immigration. I'm married to an immigrant. But lets take the case of my gardener, just to make it easy for you dunderheads.
Juan, nice guy, illegal immigrant. drives a 20 year old Nissan pick-up that gets 7-8 mpg and goes throw a quart of oil every three days. He uses his leaf blower, tree trimmer, lawn mower, none of it properly maintained. I hire him, so my hands aren't all that clean either. He goes home, takes a crap and sends it on down to a sewer system designed and developed when there were maybe 150 million people in the US. He turns on the lights, taxing a system from the same era. Dinner is cooked, TV is watched. And if he gets sick or hurt, he goes to the ER, because he has no insurance to see a general practioner. He adds to the congestion to a freeway built 65 years ago. He adds a footprint. We all do. He uses the system, like we all do, but puts nothing back into it.

[Miles.]

Felix, you act as if Mexicans have the right to break US law and use whatever public resources without consequence. And the reality is...they just don't have the right to come and go when they please and use up what has been provided by someone else.

We're trying to have a civilization here.

[Felix U. Gómez]

Why not. The U.S. does it all over the world. I mean going in to other countries, violating their soverignty, breaking their laws and international laws that they help to put in place. You should be the one to talk.
Your statement reflects the hipocrisy of your "civilization". When it is convenient for you, you open the floodgates, like in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, but when not, you shout illegal, illegal. Get real, grow up, mature, and go find someone else to report.

[Miles.]

So it is about your prejudice.

[MaDuce]

Why not. The U.S. does it all over the world. I mean going in to other countries, violating their soverignty, breaking their laws and international laws that they help to put in place. You should be the one to talk.
Your statement reflects the hipocrisy of your "civilization". When it is convenient for you, you open the floodgates, like in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, but when not, you shout illegal, illegal. Get real, grow up, mature, and go find someone else to report.
So what would you suggest open the borders and let anyone in and let those already here go on without consequence??

[Miles.]

Looks like he won't be suggesting anything here for a while.

[California Joe]

I can't take his asshattery anymore.

"Illegal" is a valid and quite appropriate word.

[jklv]

I though immigrants went to the US "Land of the free" to work, save their families from poverty and runaway from the insecurity currently in Mexico and more others Latin countries, as my aunt did; And not with the goal of stealing government's property.
I'm pretty confused.

[clean]

I though immigrants went to the US "Land of the free" to work, save their families from poverty and runaway from the insecurity currently in Mexico and more others Latin countries, as my aunt did; And not with the goal of stealing government's property.
I'm pretty confused.

They come for one reason, and one reason only. To make money. All the rest is just a by product of that goal.

[jklv]

They come for one reason, and one reason only. To make money. All the rest is just a by product of that goal.
We are all trying to make money wherever we are. And they don't actually actually want to get rich, they just want to have a decent life for their family; also have security. I don't think that just sending them to their homeland would be the answer, or th best punishment. The immigrant losses nearly everything, while the government neither gets back what the immigrants took, steal, or took illegally as you guys say. Maybe letting them work, and as time happens the immigrants could pay a special tax to pay their debt to the country that saved them.

[clean]

We are all trying to make money wherever we are. And they don't actually actually want to get rich, they just want to have a decent life for their family; also have security. I don't think that just sending them to their homeland would be the answer, or th best punishment. The immigrant losses nearly everything, while the government neither gets back what the immigrants took, steal, or took illegally as you guys say. Maybe letting them work, and as time happens the immigrants could pay a special tax to pay their debt to the country that saved them.

Sure, there's other avenues aside from mass deportation. And better ones. Deporting 12 million people is impossible. The US has some of the craziest laws concerning citizenship. Virtually impossible to become a permanent resident unless you marry an american or get a company to sponsor you. As it is right now though, illegal is illegal. And we should have safeguards against illegal immigration. Our country can't handle it.

[Hot Lips]

We are all trying to make money wherever we are. And they don't actually actually want to get rich, they just want to have a decent life for their family; also have security. I don't think that just sending them to their homeland would be the answer, or th best punishment. The immigrant losses nearly everything, while the government neither gets back what the immigrants took, steal, or took illegally as you guys say. Maybe letting them work, and as time happens the immigrants could pay a special tax to pay their debt to the country that saved them.

Rewarding illegal behavior only manages to teach that it's ok to break the law as long as you are willing make amends when you get caught. Criminals throughout time have gambled with getting caught and skirting playing (and paying) by the rules everyone else does. There has to be a consequence to breaking the law or the law means nothing.

The immigrant that losses everything willingly took that gamble when they broke the law and chose not to struggle through the immigration process as so many legal immigrants have/do.

Retroactive paying the expenses of living as the legal workforce does? Paying taxes, etc and all associated interest? Enforcing single family real estate rules which would require those illegals (not all) who hideout in other peoples homes to now seek out and pay house/utility costs, etc? What about the unemployment/assistance expenses we've incurred for legal workers put out of jobs by them? Tack the expense of tracking/collecting all of this onto their tab as well. I don't see that going over so smoothly on already low incomes. Still, for some, breaking the law might be a profitable gamble either way.

They'll want all wage and hour laws to now apply to them starting with increasing their pay and benefits to offset the taxes, etc they'll now be required to pay like everyone else does. Question: do they get to keep their job (and thus the income required to pay these taxes)? A job that a member of the legal workforce may have been denied because they weren't willing to negotiate lower wages and benefits. Why should they get to keep those jobs? Are they entitled to unemployment compensation if they are fired and have to apply for a job same as everyone else now? If they can't compete legally with the rest of the workforce to gain employment are they eligible for Governement assistance?

Frankly, I don't think paying a special tax would be enough. How about they forfeit their right to vote for xx years?

I'd like to see the employers of illegal immigrants get slapped with some hefty fines to take back the profits they've been lining their pockets with at the expense of our legal workforce.

[Miles.]

We are all trying to make money wherever we are. And they don't actually actually want to get rich, they just want to have a decent life for their family; also have security. I don't think that just sending them to their homeland would be the answer, or th best punishment. The immigrant losses nearly everything, while the government neither gets back what the immigrants took, steal, or took illegally as you guys say. Maybe letting them work, and as time happens the immigrants could pay a special tax to pay their debt to the country that saved them.

Hey, you can't say that! That's rational! ;)


I think most people look for a solution like yours, jklv. It's not really hard to comprehend.

I would even chuck the retroactive taxes.


This debate is skewed by fools like Felix who think illegal immigration is a legit retribution for American misdeeds. Seems pretty far-fetched to think that millions of people are coming to America out of spite.

I think the solution is to push for illegal immigrants to apply for citizenship, and the US government to meet them halfway and get it done quickly.

[Shadowstorm]

We are all trying to make money wherever we are. And they don't actually actually want to get rich, they just want to have a decent life for their family; also have security. I don't think that just sending them to their homeland would be the answer, or th best punishment. The immigrant losses nearly everything, while the government neither gets back what the immigrants took, steal, or took illegally as you guys say. Maybe letting them work, and as time happens the immigrants could pay a special tax to pay their debt to the country that saved them.
I agree with your post. Are immigration system is messed up like pretzel and it's not even funny. The ones that are here should pay a fine and the ones causing trouble should be deported.

[jklv]

Well they can forfeit the right to vote for XX years, pay a fine for their crime and get a legal status, of course according to the punishment and pay taxes. Hell, they only want to live decently, they never ment to harm US citizens. But deporting them? Thats nearly killing them, and it's harmful to both sides; of course those who cause problems and are not desireable must be deported an jailed as Shadowstorm says.

[Buckeye67]

Hell, thieves/burglars/muggers/drug dealers only want to live decently too. Incarcerating them? That completely takes away their only means of support - that's nearly killing them.

[Hot Lips]

I don't think it's nearly killing them and I don't think it is as simple as issuing a fine. And definately, let's not pretend they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.


EDIT: Exactly, Buckeye.

[jklv]

Hell, thieves/burglars/muggers/drug dealers only want to live decently too. Incarcerating them? That completely takes away their only means of support - that's nearly killing them.
I was talking only for the working people, no those scumbags you mention.


I don't think it's nearly killing them and I don't think it is as simple as issuing a fine. And definately, let's not pretend they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.
Once an immigrant is deported, they go to their homeland with no money or home, like a homeless. I am not pretending they didn't commit a crime I am saying that deportation is not the best punishment. And please don't compare them to thieves, dealers, etc. They are not the same.

[clean]

They were being, oh como se dice? Sarcastic?

[Ordie]

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.

They pay the same property taxes either with thier own homes or through rents. They pay the same sales and other consumption taxes.

Ironically, state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes. Moreover, the majority of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, and contribute up to $7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim.

[jklv]

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.

They pay the same property taxes either with thier own homes or through rents. They pay the same sales and other consumption taxes.

Ironically, state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes. Moreover, the majority of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, and contribute up to $7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim.
Thanks for that info, I wasn't sure about it so I did not mention it. Thanks.

[Hot Lips]

I was talking only for the working people, no those scumbags you mention.

Once an immigrant is deported, they go to their homeland with no money or home, like a homeless. I am not pretending they didn't commit a crime I am saying that deportation is not the best punishment.

Assuming none of them have family in their homeland to take them in and help them assimilate back into their own culture. Whole families do not generally come here illegally all at once.

They came here with no home and likely no money, they can go home with no money or home. Then go through the process the right way if they want to return. That is the gamble they took upon themselves. If there are special circumstances which endanger their lives upon returning or other special reason they should be allowed to stay, we have a process for that too. Feel bad and want to give them something for the return trip? Collect it from their employers who were stabbing our legal workforce in the back.

Comparing them to thieves may seem harsh, but isn't altogether inappropriate. They should have a criminal record same as any other criminal.

I just don't think the "fine" theory will work.

[clean]

Undocumented immigrants are taxpayers.

They pay the same property taxes either with thier own homes or through rents. They pay the same sales and other consumption taxes.

Ironically, state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes. Moreover, the majority of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, and contribute up to $7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim.

Yeah, that's a good point. And they pay taxes for 911 services through their phones, and they pay taxes everytime they fill up their cars etc.

[shocker1]

With illegal immigration unchecked, gangs, drugs, crime, uninsured motorist accidents and public debt all increase. We have enough of that going on with ourselves, we do not need more. There is an an answer to honest peoples needs here.

Immigration access and migrant worker permits are great ideas and should be made into positive aspects of America. Immigration is our foundation in that the hope we stand for is based on it. However there is a huge number of illegal persons in this country who want to skirt the system, use their anonymity to conduct illegal activities related to the issues I pointed out and run from law enforcement in their own nations. It is time for this to stop, I know many have good reasons but I have good reasons not to obey some laws. I am an American I do not get to get by with it in the long run. So it is unfair to those trying to do things the right way. Period

[Miles.]

Isn't part of the education cost the increasing need to hire teachers who can work with Spanish-only students?

What ahm tryin to say is: Yes, they pay property taxes. But some of their children need teachers who are not yet on the payroll. It would be a more equal share of the burden if not for that.

[clean]

The property taxes in CA are a joke. A joke I'm quite happy with. They got capped with Prop 13. So the property taxes illegals are or aren't paying don't equate to coverage for the schools. Every year or so, they talk of repealing Prop 13 becasue our schools can't get enough funding. And they need funding, in part, to deal with all the illegals in the school system. So should I suck up a 200% increase in property taxes to get funding for our public schools? Schools I can't send my kid to because they're a mess. This ties into my infrastructure speech.

[Ordie]

The property taxes in CA are a joke. A joke I'm quite happy with. So should I suck up a 200% increase in property taxes to get funding for our public schools?.

All it takes is 2/3rd majority vote in California to repeal Prop 13. Not simple majority.

But with all the Baby Boomers about to retire, I doubt they want to look out for the next generation.

They are more willing to put money into prisons thans schools. I thought about becoming a history/civics teacher in California, at $30K starting pay its not enough to live.

Education would change overnight in California if the starting pay was $75K.

[clean]

All it takes is 2/3rd majority vote in California to repeal Prop 13. Not simple majority.

But with all the Baby Boomers about to retire, I doubt they want to look out for the next generation.

They are more willing to put money into prisons thans schools. I thought about becoming a history/civics teacher in California, at $30K starting pay its not enough to live.

Education would change overnight in California if the starting pay was $75K.

I don't want Prop 13 repealed.

[shocker1]

They are more willing to put money into prisons thans schools. I thought about becoming a history/civics teacher in California, at $30K starting pay its not enough to live.

Education would change overnight in California if the starting pay was $75K.
Wow that is low for California living. I looked into teaching in Georgia and starting pay was around $40,000 and that was a few years ago. Sonny has since given a big pay raise and caused a teacher shortage in Tennessee.:)

[Hot Lips]

You know. I'd like to buy a house, but have had some issues getting a loan approved. Apparently I don't make enough even though it would cost me less than I pay in rent now. Would it be OK for me to falsify my documents to get a bank loan approved so long as I am making all my loan payments and willing to pay a fine on the backend IF I get caught? (A loan that might have gone to someone else had it not been given to me).

Of course not. But I continue playing by the rules. Squirreling away pennies, living in an area I'd rather not, in the hopes that one day I'll qualify.

[clean]

Worked in a resturant way back when, and the guy who owned it snuck across in the early 80s, worked his way up and became a citizen. He said "I would rather be in an american jail than free in Mexico."
So there's a problem there. How do you combat that feeling?

[Hot Lips]

Stop meeting criminals half way?

[MaDuce]

Stop meeting criminals half way?

PCism rules all politics.

[clean]

PCism rules all politics.

Process rules all politics.

A process is developed by a group of people who are hired/elected. Then they move on and a new crop comes in. They have to put their "stamp" on things, so they develop a new process to go along with the old one. Then a new group comes in, they need their own stamp. Otherwise they feel insecure and unimportant. It's very important to not feel unimportant. This goes on and on until the process is bogged down through it's own processes. And now we can't discern between legit immigrants and those who are looking to exploit the system.

[Ordie]

PCism rules all politics.

It's all about framing my friend.

For example which one would you choose?

Civil Unions or Gay Marriage.

Both are the same, however its how you frame the language that evokes an emotional response. Politicians and speechwriters are into this stuff.

Google George Lakoff and you'll see what I mean.

Sorry to get off topic.

[Ordie]

I don't want Prop 13 repealed.

And you would rather pay tuition at a private school?

Either way you're going to get taxed.

[clean]

And you would rather pay tuition at a private school?

Either way you're going to get taxed.

I do pay tuition at private school 17k a year. 13k a year in property taxes as it is. 95k in fed/state taxes. I'm taxed out!!!

[Wolfpack]

I though immigrants went to the US "Land of the free" to work, save their families from poverty and runaway from the insecurity currently in Mexico and more others Latin countries, as my aunt did; And not with the goal of stealing government's property.
I'm pretty confused.

Thats the dream, but to be fair honest, there is a point in the fact that ILEGAL imigrants from wherever they may come, NOT ONLY MEXICO, obtain a lot of benefits at the full cost of the US,. I think that's the point are trying to make here.

The rest is a very dangerous ground, cause the undeniable and almost everlasting need up there of people to do works that ameicans simply won't even think to do, acts as a " justification" for others to venture as ilegals.


As always, immigration is found in the socialeconomic arena, and won't be stoped even by racism, law, militarisation, completely open gates, heats and minds or whatever position the country would do. Ilega mmigratios is to be stoped when peple in the US do even the low class jobs, and in Mexico we develop a strong social and safe base and still a lot of academics doubt that it would brake it, theres a lot of sense about fact that ilegal immigration, at least in Mexico has become a social repetition, sort of emmulation and a tradition.


A pipe dream. Utopia. This problem is beyond anything and neither of our governaments are willing to do much about it.

[Ordie]

I do pay tuition at private school 17k a year. 13k a year in property taxes as it is. 95k in fed/state taxes. I'm taxed out!!!

Rent out your house to pay the mortgage/taxes.
Find an apartment at a good public school district, move there as a primary residence.

Hopefully save some money in the process.

OR

Find a bad high school, have your kid become the #1 student there to get automatic admissions to University of California system.

Bottom line, it's always cheaper to buy a home in a good school district than pay tuition.

[clean]

Hahaha. Good plans. We are in a good part of the school district. All relative though.