Bullpups vs standard assault rifles? [Archive]

StarvingStudent47

01-27-2003, 03:51 PM

I've been seeing more and more bullpup assault rifles in the world, and I was looking for some opinions as to what people thought of them. There's of course the British L85 and the Steyr AUG, and now Russia is coming out with the Groza and Israel is coming out with the Tavor family.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not that knowledgable about firearms.
*What are the advantages of a bullpup design? The disadvantages?
*If you're in the military, if you were to be in the military, would you prefer to use a bullpup or a standard design?

Thanks for your input!

rnwang

01-27-2003, 06:23 PM

StarvingStudent47
Here are some pros and cons re: bullpups

Some background. I have fired the FAMAS, L85, AUG, VALMET, Chinese Type95, Bushmasters M17s and FNP P90.

Pros:
The most apparent charateristic favouring bullpup configurations is their length. They are shorter overall when compared to standard configurations. So getting in and out of APC's, Helo's and buildings is much easier.

Also because they are shorter they are much more balanced. Because most bullpups are of recent design they have better ergonomics.

Cons:
The FAMAS, AUG and P90 are designed to be fired by either right or left handers. The other designs aren't.

They have short sight radius, perhaps that why most are designed with optics.

Having had a round "cook off" in a M16 chamber and seeing the damage to the receiver, I don't always feel very safe with the action right next to my head and the noise is distracting.

Finally, it is difficult to mount attachment such as surefire lights, grenade launchers, and lasers on the bullpup configuration.

Silverado

01-27-2003, 08:02 PM

The Australian Army Steyr AUG is now able to be fitted with an M203 40mm grenade launcher. Previously Digs would have at least one M16/M203 or M79 "Wombat Gun" per section.

Kitsune

01-28-2003, 01:32 PM

The power of an rifle, its range and accuracy depend ont he barrel lenght. On the other side the military wants to have shorter rifles (carabines) . They are more handy, better for close quarter combat, better for paratroopers and APC deployed personnel.
A normal rifle is fed in the front (to the muzzle ) of the grip. The rest lenght is "wasted". The Bullpup idea is to place the chamber backwards sometimes back to the stock. So the rifle can be short AND accurate. Its a more advanced rifle design thats all. Of course you can' hang so much things on a shorter rfle but you want it light and handy remember?
Drawbacks?
One. For a left handed shooter the case is ejected to the side of the soldier. This means for Bullpups INTO his face. But there are some ways to overcome that problem:
the german H&K G11 used caseless ammunition... problem solved!
the austrian steyr ACR could change the side of ejection!
the belgium FN F2000 ejects the case to the front... below the barrel.
Resume: the bullpup design is more advanced than the conventional design. You will see more and more rifles with that configuration in the future. But how good a rifle is depends on the specific model of cource. For example the german G36 (not a bullpup) is regarded as superior to the british SA80 (Bullpup)!

The END

Loke

01-28-2003, 04:31 PM

Mounting a suppressor on a bullpup can also cause some trouble. Not the mounting of the suppressor itself, but the gasses released from the ejection port right under your face when you fire the weapon. (The FN 2000 and the FNP90 don't have this problem to such a degree as the ejection port on these weapons are not so close to your face).
Suppressor tend to drive a lot of residue, gas and other nasties out of the ejection port, more so than a non suppressed weapon.
The gas will cause eyes to run and feel sore if you're not wearing totally enclosed goggles (scuba mask).

StarvingStudent47

01-28-2003, 04:37 PM

Thanks everyone for the input so far.

Would placing the firing mechanism behind the handgrip increase the kickback felt in the shoulder? It sort of seems like it would when I visualize it, but then again, I've never fired a rifle of any kind.

fokket

01-28-2003, 04:49 PM

I had chance to shoot SA80 ( L85) in UK when I was doing junior cadet.

it's just too heavy and unbalanced IMO

I really didn't like it.

whereas AR15-series are shockingly ergonomic.

see ya

Kitsune

01-28-2003, 05:00 PM

No... wether a weapon is bullpup or not does not change how strong the recoil is felt. Bullpups may look deceptivley small and short but have a powerful shot (because of barrel lenght) and only this heightens the recoil.

FallenAngel

01-28-2003, 08:21 PM

I'd personally prefer a traditional set-up like an M4A1 or G36K. (although I've only shot one bullpup...a mini-14 conversion.)

although, I *DO* like the feed mechanisms on the HK G11 and the FN P90...I think we will see more of those too.

Chris

01-31-2003, 05:51 AM

Hi, i am from AUG-country, e.g. austria hehe, and everyone loves that rifle here, the only disadvantages are mounting a grenade launcher (like mentioned before), and the changing of the magazines if you are new at it. That are the most mentioned problems here i think

Kitsune

01-31-2003, 10:18 AM

Yeah i have heard that this rifle is a good one... often seen in the movies too... mainly in high-tech thrillers because it looks science fiction like. Austies and Aussies both use it (they sound alike but are actually quite different... does everyone know that austria is not even near to australia? :roll: )

Have Fun !

Chris

01-31-2003, 11:59 AM

jep, but its an austrian invention, not australian hehe. They have more problems, because they dont use as good materials as supposed to do. In austria you can buy tshirts with the slogan "there are no kangaroos in austria" on it hehe.

GazB

03-06-2003, 11:31 PM

Advantages:

Short and compact, while at the same time having as long a barrel as possible.

Disadvantages:

Balance is too far back for most people.
Whether it ejects to the right only or can be changed, in Urban combat (where its shortness is useful) sometimes you need to shoot from the other shoulder. With a bullpup this is not possible, as even if it can be adjusted it is ususally a case of a few minutes to change the ejection side over.
This means if you are shooting around a corner you have to expose your whole head and chest to fire, instead, with a conventional rifle you can swap hands and expose one eye and half or less of your head and one shoulder, while keeping most of your chest behind cover.

rnwang
"Having had a round "cook off" in a M16 chamber and seeing the damage to the receiver, I don't always feel very safe with the action right next to my head and the noise is distracting. "

Are you confusing a cook off with a chamber detonation?

"Would placing the firing mechanism behind the handgrip increase the kickback felt in the shoulder? "

No.

I am from New Zealand and we use Australian made Steyrs. They are crap. The sights fog up and they break and fail reasonably often. I am assuming it is the lower quality control of the Australian manufacture.
They are reasonable accurate and easy to use.

The Main reason behind the Russian Groza was to design a smaller lighter gun for mounting grenade launchers. The Gp-25 and Gp-30 will fit any AK built in Russia and is attached by a bayonet lug connection. It can be fitted and removed as quickly and easily as a bayonet. Unfortunately like most standard rifles the balance of an AK is forward. Adding 1.5kgs to the front makes it feel unbalanced and too front heavy for comfortable use. (obviously the advantages of having an HE point target weapon on your rifle means that the soldiers put up with it and very much appreciate a greande that can't be thrown back and they can launch up to 420m).

So the idea of a smaller lighter weapon with the weight balance at the rear would be a good solution. Adding a grenade launcher on the front made its weight lower than a standard rifle with a grenade launcher fitted and it also meant that the balance was restored to near the middle of the weapon instead of too far forward (for a normal rifle with a underbarrel grenade launcher) or too far back (for a standard bullpup design).

Apogee

03-06-2003, 11:52 PM

wow, talk about reviving a topic...

martinexsquaddie

03-10-2003, 07:34 AM

SA80 ok TO SHOOT crap in the field
and you can't shoot it left handed
it falls apart
if its such a good ****ing weapon how come british specail forces use m16s?

GearGod

03-10-2003, 08:17 AM

Someone talked about how the "shorter" M4 isnt as long as the M16 which would decrease accuracy/range. Will a QD silencer/suppressor on an M4 increase the accuracy/range where its equal to the M16?

GazB

03-10-2003, 09:52 AM

Extra barrel length improves range by allowing the gas from the powder to push the bullet a little longer... which gives it more speed (higher velocity) and translates into more range.
In a silencer or a suppressor the gas no longer just pushes on the bullet like it does down a barrel.
Think of a silencer as a large tube where the gas from behind the bullet can spread out and cool down before it reaches the open air. Because it cools and slows down when it reaches the air it is no longer travelling at supersonic speed, so it makes no bang. The sharp crack rifles make is made by the projectile travelling at supersonic speed. If the ammo is subsonic then there is no crack either.

If the silencer or suppressor is badly designed or even just badly fitted and the projectile actually contacts the silencer then the accuracy will be quite bad. Generally accuracy is reduced unless the silencer/suppressor is designed to act as a barrel weight to reduce vibrations. This is not common on combat rifles. Most of the time the accuracy is effected by the reduced velocity ammo... often in a negative way, though in high winds heavier rounds might perform better than lighter ones.

A very complex issue.

grendel

03-10-2003, 11:35 AM

A comment from an Australian soldier re. Steyr AUG's performance:

http://www.greendevils.pl/technika_wojskowa/bron/steyr/steyr.html[/b]

Chris1

03-11-2003, 07:52 AM

First off, my only experiance with bullpups is the SA80 and LSW, although I have fired the M16 and some of its assorted variants, I have not been trained on them.
kitsune, the Barrel length on the SA80 is longer than the M16A2, the whole point, the entire reason for being of a bullpup rifle is that it has the barrel length of its longer cousins, in a smaller full length.
As such, few of them have a barrel as small as, say an M4 or the short colt the Israeli's use (forget what its called).
There is a noticeable difference in recoil on the M16 and the SA80, the SA80 being better.
I'm not going to go into a discussion about the SA80's reliability, as it isn't the point of this thread.
Loke
mounting a suppressor on a rifle?
would make a good film but most rifles are not designed to have a suppressor mounted on them at all. There is no provision for it, in the design of most rifles I doubt the designers even thought about it.

Firing a rifle from the left shoulder, haven't done this with the SA80, as your likely to lose a couple of teeth, but have tried this with an SLR, and I couldn't hit a thing. It felt un-natural and difficult. I concede that you could *try* this with a conventional rifle if the issue ever came up, but unless you are ambidexterous, I don't think you could effectively, and although you may expose yourself less firing from left shoulder round a corner, if you can't hit the bastard your shooting at, its pointless.

My personnal opinion, Bullpups.
Running, jumping, climbing over obstacles, the SA80 was a godsend compared to the SLR.

Bala ya khumak

03-11-2003, 12:07 PM

Hello all

Bullpup:

Pros:
Can't think of any really worth mentioning that aren't listed already.

Cons:
In addition to those listed above:

Firing blind:
If you want to lay down some covering fire round corner of a building for example – exposing nothing more than the rife and your arms - the mag gets in the way – you can't do it in one motion, like you could with the L1A1 or M-16 etc. You have to hook you mag over onto the outside of your forearm – fire – then hook it back over again – that's a more than a pain.

Intimidation:
Walk around a hellhole peacekeeping with a 'toy' like the L85 (the reputation doesn't help either) and you get sneered at by rent-a-mob and the locals with their G3's, AK-47's etc. It may seem minor, but you can't really portray authority and dominance with a L85 and the like – 'street cred', as it were, counts.

Reach:
Get up close and personal for a little bayonet fun with someone with an AK-47 and you've had it unless you really can float like a butterfly and sting like a bee – try doing that with kit on...

Chris1

03-11-2003, 12:24 PM

I can see where your coming from with the intimidation bit, but it provides an air of something far more important - professionalism.
Here you are with something they haven't seen, looking a bit more hi-tech than an AK-47 :)
A lot of people, having seen only militia's and half trained butchers who call themselves soldiers will see you as a professional influence, that you know what your doing and your here to help.
If you end up so close to a bad guys that you have chance to start comparing rifles, then the world will have defiantely taken a turn for the surreal.
Bayonet?
Hmm
well that depends on who you ask, the SA80 bayonet, is to be quite blunt, ****e but are you going to need it these days?

martinexsquaddie

03-12-2003, 04:09 AM

The SLR I could shoot and hit target with from both shoulders but i'm a lefty so it was'nt a problem.
The British army still train to Bayonet fight and my unit and the green jackets I know still want to stick them in people chances are anybody else will have runaway or surrended by then.
SA80 should be given away to every dodgy third world miltia and mass air dropped on somali
why it looks cool and hi- tech so gunmen will want it.
next day they they will have broken it no more civil war :) doesn't even make a good club

digrar

03-12-2003, 10:44 PM

The Austeyr does the job. If Colt had of let us make the M16 in Australia we would be using them instead.

Bala ya khumak

03-13-2003, 12:51 PM

The Austeyr does the job, barely. If Colt had of let us make the M16 in Australia we would be using them instead.

The Steyr's alright, better than the 'SA80' at least, the mag's a bit fragile though and the 1.5X not as useful as the 4X SUSAT on the 'SA80' in some instances. But they got the balance right, nicely over the pistol grip, which is good for a bullpup. And you can throw it in a lake – take it out and let an APC roll over it and the thing will still fire.
Wish I could say the same for the 'SA80' – I think the fact that Jamaica (I think this is still the case) is the only other country to have adopted it speaks volumes – even with H&K's "improvements" it's still ****.
Personally I don't that that UK troops should be involved in Iraq, if there's a war - God forbid, if they are expected to use the 'SA80' - they should, at least, bring back the SLR L1A1. But, if I remember rightly, we sold most of our stocks, can anyone remember to whom? An African nation if I think it was...

Bala ya khumak

03-13-2003, 12:59 PM

digrar

03-13-2003, 10:09 PM

Bala ya khumak

03-14-2003, 11:11 AM

The 1.5 scope is a battle sight only. Don't want every soldier thinking he is a sniper and picking whether he wants to put the round in the left or right eye, center of C mass will be fine.
Every Infantry section now has at least one austeyr fitted with a wildcat scope which is about 4.5 power and can be swapped for a night sight.
I have seen one of those mags break in 8 years, not a bad effort and you can see how many rounds you have left, handy.

Only one? Maybe you ozzies out at Lithgow make them better then, a mate of mine servered in the Austrian Bundesher and he told me that the mags crack easily – especially in freezing conditions, but then he had nothing good to say about his time in service anyway...
I agree with you about the transparent mag, clever feature.
Did you train on the Steyr or convert to it? I've never fired one, I'd be interested to know how you find the trigger assembly, it would take me a while to get used to have no selector switch.

digrar

03-14-2003, 11:55 AM

The trigger has two pressure settings, half way is single shot and all the way back is full auto. There is a single shot lock out button on the bottom of the trigger which restricts the weapon to single shots. This is really only used on the range so you don't accidently bugger up a serial. There is a big enough difference in the two trigger pressures to not make it a big deal.
I was still ****ting yellow when we changed from SLRs to Austeyr and never saw a SLR untill we worked with the Portugese in East Timor. They used a para version with a colapsable but stock and was able to be fired in full auto unlike the old SLR.

AndyMUC

03-14-2003, 02:28 PM

Most Things are already said....

Except that bullpubs have one major disadvantage from conventional designs: It con only be fired from the Left or the right shoulder, depending on where the cases are coming out. This is an major issue in i.e. Urban combat.
Only the FN P2000 and the P90 don't have these 'problems'.

A Few Words to my background:
former Army drill instructor,
Fired SA80, Steyer AUG, FAMAS, P90

Have Fun and a nice WE

Andy

BiZ

03-22-2003, 02:55 AM

I am from New Zealand and we use Australian made Steyrs. They are crap. The sights fog up and they break and fail reasonably often. I am assuming it is the lower quality control of the Australian manufacture.
They are reasonable accurate and easy to use

I find this very hard to believe.... you kiwis just don't know how to:
* Use a weapon (F-88 series)
* Look after a weapon

(the real reason is that we ship the defects off to New Zealand and tell them they're fine.... :D )

If you guys used a good scope instaed of the fitted one you'd have no problems with it.
As for breaking???? I have personally watched an M1113-APC run over a F-88A1 and it was still able to be fired afterwards on the range and not fail!

Personally though..I like the F-88 series IN THEORY, but in practise opt for nothing other than an M4.

Of note, the M203 mentioned to be used by the Australian Defense Force by another poster here is not a standard M203, it's the M203PI (product improved) version. Far better than the old M203.

darkartsviper

03-22-2003, 05:38 AM

I bet you guys havent tried shooting the SAR-21 before.

Chris1

03-22-2003, 08:35 AM

martin, bayonet drills still have to be taught, as it teaches agression which is the basis of infantry combat, but how likely are you to use them?
Well maybe a bit more likely today than last week but there is debate as to its use in the Falklands, and that was twenty years ago!
Its also quite amusing that you mentioned the RGJ like that
I was in the green jackets :D

digrar

03-22-2003, 11:55 AM

(the real reason is that we ship the defects off to New Zealand and tell them they're fine.... :D

I read a book by an Australian bloke Clem Sweeney who had to leave the country at short notice, he went to New Zealand and served in the Artillery in the early seventies. This bloke had worked at the Lithgow small arms factory making SLRs.
When he gets isued his rifle at recruit training he noticed that it had a reject code stamped on it. He had personally stamped three thousand of these SLRs with the code because the metal was to soft. Then the Australian government sent them to the Kiwi's. Gee we're bastards :D

DPM95

03-22-2003, 06:09 PM

Someone stated that the UK special forces use the M16. That is wrong. They are currently using the Diemaco C8 and C7, which are Canadian "improved" Colts made on license. These perform better in harsh wather, especially in arctic conditions. The special forces here in Norway have adopted it too.

The SA80A2 is actually improved drastically. All reported problems are supposed to be solved.

Kitsune

03-22-2003, 06:18 PM

Yeah...H&K did it. I still do not get that the Brits did not manage to solve those problems of an simple assault rifle. They literally tried for more than a decade! :cantbeli:

BiZ

03-23-2003, 06:03 AM

does everyone know that austria is not even near to australia?

:lol:
:lol:
:roll:

I love meeting yanks who seem to think that Austria and Australia are either one and the same, or next door to each other. Shows a lot for the educational state of US schooling with regards to world geography.

Austria is as we all know, is up there in Europe near Germany and the like.

Australia on the other hand is "down under", near New Zealand and Indonesia. To make it real easy for you, it's the big island below the Asian region on a map.

Comparing the two is like comparing the United States of America with the United Arab Emirates......but they sound the same! :backhand:

That's my little rant for the week..... now, stuff to do and places to be.

cut

03-23-2003, 07:58 AM

Yeah...H&K did it. I still do not get that the Brits did not manage to solve those problems of an simple assault rifle. They literally tried for more than a decade! :cantbeli:

H&K belongs to the company that makes the SA80, which is strange.

Chris1

03-23-2003, 09:37 AM

*BUZZZZZ*
nope
flogged off by British Aerospace
Zie germans have it back.

cut

03-23-2003, 10:10 AM

lol

Kitsune

03-23-2003, 10:28 AM

Since H&K is the leading small arms producer in Germany selling it touches security and state interests. So even as it was sold there were conditions to it...for example the Brits were not allowed to take everything from the black forest area and replace it to Scotland. And indeed I have heard that now "we" have it back.
By the way...the Brits are at least as touchy when Krauts buy there arms industry companies... :lol:

GazB

03-24-2003, 03:23 AM

Yes, I'd heard our armed forces had been equipped with Oz's rejects. At the time I suggested we get real guns like an AK in 5.56.
Of course it doesn't really matter anyway cause when we go to battle it'll be Aussie carrying most of the tab anyway... you are our buffer to Asia after all. :-)

How is our airforce... I hope you guys are looking after our Hornets and Ardvarks :lol: :roll: :lol:

steel bonnet

03-24-2003, 07:04 AM

On the SA80A2. Does anyone have good clear pictures of the new varient with the HK AG36 grenade launcher attached? All the photos l`ve seen so far don`t really give much.
Thank`s,
ja
Steel Bonnet

Chris1

03-26-2003, 08:31 AM

http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/images/ops/captured_wpns2_hr.jpg

steel bonnet

03-26-2003, 08:49 AM

Chris1,THANK YOU :D

Ja
Steel bonnet

LORD_BUNGLA

03-30-2003, 04:21 AM

Hey everyone,

This is my first post and I'm going to do it here. (Sorry about reviving this thread, but i have an important statemant and Q)

Well i must say that the Russian Groza solves all the problems of the bullpup. It can be used around corners, if you put it an angle, and you only expose your eye. The russian weapon is made differently to other guns, so anything that comes out goes down.

But this is my question, The OC groza is only used by the Russian special force and it is not sold to other countries, etc and is not given to rgular forces. Please tell me if i am correct.

Thanx, and sorry about the post.

Sick-Boy

11-16-2007, 09:19 AM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

sp2c

11-16-2007, 09:26 AM

juju

11-16-2007, 09:43 AM

VansRV

11-16-2007, 09:55 AM

I love meeting yanks who seem to think that Austria and Australia are either one and the same, or next door to each other. Shows a lot for the educational state of US schooling with regards to world geography.

We may not know our geography, but we know our history, like that Hitler was born in Australia. :):roll:

sp2c

11-16-2007, 10:03 AM

We may not know our geography, but we know our history, like that Hitler was born in Australia. :):roll:

that and people from the Netherlands seem to be Danes in the American mind ... it's close but you aint getting my banana's

Buckeye67

11-16-2007, 10:11 AM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

Not only a necropost reviving a thread from 2003 - but flamebait at that. Great first post. You have an excellent future at mp.net to look forward to!

California Joe

11-16-2007, 10:26 AM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

Dumbass...Tighten up.

ShakesFIST

11-16-2007, 10:38 AM

It's not often that I see a thread get brought back thats older than my account.

sp2c

11-16-2007, 10:40 AM

It's not often that I see a thread get brought back thats older than my account.

well ... say something cool damned!

Laconian

11-16-2007, 10:46 AM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

Dude, your first post is a necro-post to a 4-yr old + thread? And was so insightful, thanks.

wild_wild_wes

11-16-2007, 11:15 AM

The main advantage I see on "regular" rifles is that they can be fired from both shoulder. Steyr AUG, FAMAS, SA80 can be converted to right or left handed users, but not without dissambling it and sometimes replacement of parts.
The FN 2000 also offer this possibility in a BullPup format, thanks to its innovative ejection system.

Having used FAMAS, AR15, AK74, SIG 550/551/552, my vote goes to AR15/M4 platform and its incredible versatility.

Especially the M4 with heavy bullets like the 77 grains.

I second that opinion.

Besides owning almost every other commercially available semi-auto assault rifle, I also had an AUG and a FAMAS. The French gun was impressive despite the crappy, crappy sights. The AUG was near-perfection...I could hand it to someone who never shot a gun before and they could ding the target no problem.

But the AR series has far more versatility. Far better human engineering.

head

11-17-2007, 10:51 PM

The Aug is a super weapon, very very reliable, never had a problem with one, very little could be done to improve this weapon, bar the optical sights-1.5 isn't great! The Irish have incorporated an AOL swith under the trigger for switching between Semi and full auto

Tribunius

11-17-2007, 11:02 PM

It wasn't us (the Irish) that came up with the ALO. Think it was the Austrian prison service.

Violet Fashion by Mindy

11-17-2007, 11:18 PM

Meh I'd prefer Muzzle loaders or bolt action rifles.

each to there own.

I want and need wood!

head

11-18-2007, 10:41 AM

Austrian prison service, thats gas, although understandable, thanks

He219

11-18-2007, 01:27 PM

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd255/lancero111/novembro/20071118131415ENLUS0117605511953916.jpg
The 203 configuration seems to void the benefits of having a bullpup itself.

Andreas

11-18-2007, 02:17 PM

SA80 ok TO SHOOT crap in the field
and you can't shoot it left handed
it falls apart
if its such a good ****ing weapon how come british specail forces use m16s?

Woah, had your experience with the rifle?

I have observed some rather unfavorable things about the SA-80 in real life but this was 00-01 and Ive been told that improvments have been made.

I think its potato/tomato. As long as you keep your weapon maintained and train with it doesent make much of a difference when push comes to shuwww..

Cheers
Andreas

EsoognomEhT

11-18-2007, 04:40 PM

SA80 ok TO SHOOT crap in the field
and you can't shoot it left handed
it falls apart
if its such a good ****ing weapon how come british specail forces use m16s?

How rude...Did you forget to clean it? ;d

bluffcove

11-18-2007, 04:47 PM

The A2 is fine.

SF use M16's because it means we can blame it on the yanks when we are seen in the wrong place at the wrong time (I think they are C7s)

Nige

11-19-2007, 07:16 AM

Concur that the L85A2 is the dog's nads. I used SLR, L85A1 and A2, fired G3, HK33 and 53, now use the Austeyr.

The A1 was not too flash, but worked OK - silly faults like the mag catch being against the body and letting mags go was something that rocked peoples confidence and should have been picked up in trials.

I felt confident with the A2 on operations - the locals had a grudging respect for it too - especialy after a Cav trooper (QRH) dropped a guy from 300+ metres with an Iron sighted A2 - standing supported position - 1 round 1 kill.

Bullpup works for me - mechanized / armoured armies need a weapon that is short enough to mount/dismount from AFVs but retains barrel length.

The ability to 'reach out and touch' to ranges beyond 300 metres is not a problem of bullpups, the 5.56mm round is the key there. I understand 7.62mm MGs are being issued in rifle sections again to counter this.

DeltaWhisky58

11-19-2007, 08:11 AM

The A2 is fine.

SF use M16's because it means we can blame it on the yanks when we are seen in the wrong place at the wrong time (I think they are C7s)

L119A1 = C8SFW in most cases now.

DeltaWhisky58

11-19-2007, 08:12 AM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

You dug up a topic which has been dead for over four years to post this crap?

Some first post knobhead.:bash:

California Joe

11-19-2007, 09:24 AM

When this topic was started there was no Equipment section.

SMGLee

11-19-2007, 11:03 PM

When this topic was started there was no Equipment section.

You should write a script that automatic lock the thread once it goes silent for six month or a what ever pre-set period your mods agree upon.

Originally Posted by Sick-Boy View Post
For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...

I don't know to laugh or cry!!

Hollis

11-20-2007, 01:48 AM

RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

It is the thread that won't dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

martinexsquaddie

11-20-2007, 08:31 AM

broke several sa80s lost all confidence in said rifle when mine broke in a weapons bundle:(
a2 apparently works well

baboon6

11-20-2007, 08:40 AM

sexyhamburger

11-20-2007, 02:58 PM

I want and need wood!

thats what she said :p
i joke!

REMOV

11-20-2007, 05:56 PM

For weak 5.56 NATO, Bullpups are best solution. Longer barrel does the job...I don't know to laugh or cry!Hmm... it is not so stupid as it looks like, SMGLee. In fact, the shorter 5,56-mm barrel is, the efectiveness of the bullet is lower (and this is serious problem in M4s or M733s). And the bullpup design is the only solution to get a cake and have it - to have longer barrel and short total length.

SMGLee

11-20-2007, 06:06 PM

Hmm... it is not so stupid as it looks like, SMGLee. In fact, the shorter 5,56-mm barrel is, the efectiveness of the bullet is lower (and this is serious problem in M4s or M733s). And the bullpup design is the only solution to get a cake and have it - to have longer barrel and short total length.

I know the concept,:) what I am trying to say is this statement is just the obvious and seem to be very pointless to post on a thread that is 3 years old.

Cdt.Hawkins

11-21-2007, 04:35 AM

digrar

11-21-2007, 05:33 AM

When I did a bit of training with the Steyr in cadets (no firing), the ejection port seemed very close to the face.
At times if I'd have fired my bush hat would have caught the full force of a hot 5.56.
But then again thats probably just me edging toward the scope...

Don't really know where to begin. :|

If your bush hat is that big and floppy, you need a new one, there can be no doubt that you look like a goose wearing it too.
If your face is on the side of the weapon with the ejection port, you've made an error of judgment and got yourself a left handed weapon when you needed a right, or alternatively a right when you needed a left.
Don't worry about creeping forward, the first time your sight smashes into your face you will learn a valuable lesson and not do it again.
Finally if you have this sort of information to add to a topic I suggest you reconsider and keep it to yourself.

martinexsquaddie

11-21-2007, 06:44 AM

the a2 works nobody in the sand pit is complaining it does'nt drop bad guys the lsw used as a dmr can be effective out to 600m without the need for extra training or extra logistics

wild_wild_wes

11-21-2007, 11:42 AM

the a2 works nobody in the sand pit is complaining it does'nt drop bad guys the lsw used as a dmr can be effective out to 600m without the need for extra training or extra logistics

Do to your lack of punctuation, that can mean either:

"The a2 works. Nobody in the sand pit is complaining. It does'nt drop bad guys."

or

"The a2 works. Nobody in the sand pit is complaining it does'nt drop bad guys."

Which is it?

California Joe

11-21-2007, 12:29 PM

Martin has a certain style. You get used to it. Like a British Omega7. :)

marcellogo

12-12-2010, 09:21 PM

My opinion?
If you want a standard rifle only (meaning one with minimum 16" barrel), bullpup is genial solution.

If what you want is a whole family of weapon, think it again:
a bullpup carbine is still a good choice, but with a good foldable stock a conventional one would gave the same results both in lenght and accuracy.
A lmg/Saw? Belt feed it is IMPOSSIBLE with Bullpup and also drum magazines are not simple to use with. Quick change barrell also are problematic, only AUG have someting like this, but in bullpup a large portion of barrel HAVE to be buried deep in the weapons body and can only be pushed forward to unlock (and as you have to exert some force for it you would have to rise on your knees to do it, remember what happened in Sadowa 1866?.

PDW? in this case bulpup would turn to be even larger respect to the foldable stock alternative: you still need to have space for both hands and for the buttstock.

Marksman rifle it is perfect for bullpup however, but in 5,56 or similar caliber as larger caliber proved to be too much poverful to stay so close to shooters head.

There is howewer a rifle that showed all defects of bullpup without any of their pros: M16 and all its derivatives:
they retain a full lenght but with no possibility to carry a foldable stock, only a telescopic one.
They are in a certain sense half bullpups: magazine is still forward but recoil spring elongates itself in the buttstock.

boone

12-12-2010, 09:30 PM

Wow. After 3 years on the board?

bluffcove

12-14-2010, 04:31 PM

- SO never seen a 20MM bull pup anti tank weapon, Im geeky enough to know your assessment is wrong but not geeky enough to have websites to hand to prove this.

California Joe

12-14-2010, 07:46 PM

LOL at BiZ explaining the difference between Austria and Australia....:)

Respawn

12-22-2010, 11:40 AM

i'm gonna post here, this thread is too awesome.

personally, the steyr was pretty good, it was balanced really well given the look of it, nearly negligible recoil that I felt went into my shoulder nicely, and didn't do a lot of mag changes but I didn't think it was the awkward mess some people say it is. Only thing I had with the steyr was that after you've fired off a couple of mags, the receiver starts heating up A LOT and if you're using the grip where your left hand is sort of on the trigger guard and your fingers touch the receiver, your fingers are liable to get burned.. on second thought that might be because I'm too stupid to remember wearing gloves but still.

aop

12-22-2010, 12:21 PM

- SO never seen a 20MM bull pup anti tank weapon, Im geeky enough to know your assessment is wrong but not geeky enough to have websites to hand to prove this.
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/large-caliber-sniper-rifles/hr/rt-20-e.html

HGRazorR

12-22-2010, 12:33 PM

RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

It is the thread that won't dieeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Quoted For Truth

marcellogo

12-22-2010, 09:31 PM

- SO never seen a 20MM bull pup anti tank weapon, Im geeky enough to know your assessment is wrong but not geeky enough to have websites to hand to prove this.

I know about it and i've seen in person, having lived in Croatia some years (to stay in same nation,there is also 12,7 mm Macs), but let's be clear: I was talking about a Marksman version of a standard rifle, not superheavy anti-material sniping monster.
There are also bullpup PDW, beginning with FN P90, but what I was triyng to say is that in most cases a really working foldable buttstock would be a good, cheapest and simplier alternative.
EXCEPT for standard rifle, in this case (and expecially when we talk about 5,56 that need long barrels for reaching its full potential) bullpup is a real treat.

P.s. Croatia has developed his own bullpup assault rifle, the VHS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS_assault_rifle and is on the process to ecquip all its armed forces with it.
I've proved it (althought i had not fired it) and it is certainly a.t.m. the most well balanced, easiest to carry, wield and to aim weapon I ever had in my hands, STILL also in this case they made only standard rifle and carabine version.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/1363/800pxdanosrhaihkovakalo.jpg

REMOV

12-24-2010, 09:00 AM

Croatia has developed his own bullpup assault rifle, the VHS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VHS_assault_rifle and is on the process to ecquip all its armed forces with it.Nope, it is not. The all purchases were halted after the first 1,000 VHS in both versions (VHS-K and VHS-D) were delivered. The Croatian MoD told the manufacturer - company called HS Produkt, that the Army is not longer interested in rifle designed only for right handed shooters. Now the HS Produkt have to redesign the whole rifle to fulfill the MoD requirements.

Corrupt

12-24-2010, 05:42 PM

Nope, it is not. The all purchases were halted after the first 1,000 VHS in both versions (VHS-K and VHS-D) were delivered. The Croatian MoD told the manufacturer - company called HS Produkt, that the Army is not longer interested in rifle designed only for right handed shooters. Now the HS Produkt have to redesign the whole rifle to fulfill the MoD requirements.

A certain RAF Reg officer I know revels in telling lefties they are twisted and evil and wrong and must learn to do things the way normal people do with the L85.

REMOV

12-25-2010, 06:59 AM

I agree. Now, all left traffic British drivers should switch to right lane to confirm that RAF officer theory. Lefties are twisted, evil and wrong, right? ;)

ayanami_tard

12-26-2010, 07:04 AM

My opinion?
If what you want is a whole family of weapon, think it again:
a bullpup carbine is still a good choice, but with a good foldable stock a conventional one would gave the same results both in lenght and accuracy.

i question the accuracy of rifle with buttstock being folded(sidewards,upfront,etc) while shooting

vajt

12-26-2010, 06:21 PM

i question the accuracy of rifle with buttstock being folded(sidewards,upfront,etc) while shooting

But I wonder how often a soldier would have to shoot their rifle so quickly that they wouldn't even have time to extend the buttstock?

Probably more important is that for CQB you want a shorter length rifle. The bullpup achieves this while keeping a full length barrel while a regular rifle would either have to use a shorter length barrel or, as you mentioned, keep the buttstock folded but then you may actually run into a situation where you may need to extend the buttstock rapidly. Is this correct or once the troops are on the ground, even in built-up areas and CQB situations, they already extend the buttstock so even that argument in voided?

-----JT-----