Why bullpups?

[Tony Williams]

I have added a new article to my website to consider the pros and cons of bullpups vs traditional military rifles, here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/bullpups.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[solidarnosc]

I have added a new article to my website to consider the pros and cons of bullpups vs traditional military rifles, here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/bullpups.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)


Interesting to read (as usual) ;).

[khalifah]

Thats a really good read, a lot of the points make sense. ;>

Personally though I would probably end up using a traditional rifle(I am left handed).

[digrar]

The Austeyr F88 can be fitted with a left hand bolt, swap the ejection port cover over and presto rounds ro left instead of right....

[Murph]

What do you think the chances are of seeing bullpups issued to US Forces?

[khalifah]

The Austeyr F88 can be fitted with a left hand bolt, swap the ejection port cover over and presto rounds ro left instead of right....


Well shure there are adapters for the bullpups, but would any military spend the money to have a a fraction of their rifles ment for left handers?

Furthermore, if by chance I were to (God Forbid) lose,break, jam,ect. my left handed rifle. Its not like I am going to be as effective with another "reguler" bullpup.

In any case I like Bullpups (especially the FAMAS), which comes to mind, What is the percentage of right handed shooters to Left handed shooters?

[gafkiwi]

In the field its not like spare weapons are laying around for when you brake yours. The Bolt on a steyr isn't ****e to damage so if the weapon does F*ck out the armourers can just drop it into another rifle, head space it and your on your way. If your prepared to take the risk it can be done without an armourer present, i.e. situation will dictate. We also practice occaisonally firing left/right handed weapons on your non master side, just incase.

Good read Tony, Some really valid points.

[AztecMex]

I think Bullpups are going to be the future of weapons just give a lil more time and they will be all over the place.

[IsraDani]

they allow much better handling (shorter and compact body, less weight) with the same performances of a combat rifle.

[SMGLee]

I like my Steyr AUG, but I am one of those traditional rifle type of guy...:)

[Cpl.K]

Thats a really good read, a lot of the points make sense. ;>

Personally though I would probably end up using a traditional rifle(I am left handed).

"Probably"? I don't know how it works around your parts but over here we use what we are issued, period.

I have only compared the Finnish RK 95 TP (modernized AK) and SA80. The SA80 experience is limited to some 90 rds on a range but when boiled to down to bullpup vs. traditional config I thought the SA80 was quite handy and it was relatively easy to acquire sight picture in kneeling and standing position because of the compact size and way of holding it. From this very limited experience I would be happy to be issued a bullpup weapon when operating with vehicles and in urban environment, because of its size. The concept seems sound. I have fired almost 2000 live rounds with RK 95 TP but I was almost more effective with the SA80 in range conditions within an hour of picking it up. Can't say how it really works in the field, though.

[digrar]

Well shure there are adapters for the bullpups, but would any military spend the money to have a a fraction of their rifles ment for left handers?



Maybe I wasn't clear, the Australian Army does fit F88's with left hand bolts for their left handed weapon users. I imagine all AUG users do, as it's such a simple thing to do.

[Bohemoth]

I have added a new article to my website to consider the pros and cons of bullpups vs traditional military rifles, here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/bullpups.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
A major advantage is the location of the magazine.
It allows for a compact design and yet long barrel for accurate shooting and a lot of weight is distributed behind the handgrip into your shoulder making the weapon very maneouverable.

That's quite some pro points for bullpups, but nothing is better than Stoner's good ole Armalite design.:)

[khalifah]

Maybe I wasn't clear, the Australian Army does fit F88's with left hand bolts for their left handed weapon users. I imagine all AUG users do, as it's such a simple thing to do.

Ok I had no idea of how simple it was, i thought the whole mechanism had to be reversed or something (goes to show how much i know about bullpups). I have mainly been exposed to the general issued rifles of my country (US). Last that i looked the US didnt have bullpups...yet.p-)

CPL. K I was speaking as if i had a choice. BTW I apriciate the feedback about the SA80 and the RK 95 TP.

[Molli]

As usual, it's the British Army who have the correct solution: By order, all train to shoot from the right shoulder! A method that has been used successfully since before the SA80! No need for any of these reversible bolts and such...

[DeltaWhisky58]

Shooting off your weak shoulder is not difficult with training/experience. I have taught myself to do it and whilst accuracy isn't quite up to shooting off my right shoulder, it's certainly OK for hunting conditions and thus I would assume military use (waits to be shot down by dozens of armchair commandos).

Despite this, I think that the concept of swapping over parts on the rifle a la Steyr AUG, is the best idea and ought to be incorporated into all bullpups.

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone here have experience of bullpup hunting/sniping rifles? A couple of friends of mine have used the French Crapahut system of hunting rifles for years, these are bolt action bullpups and are very successful if you like that sort of thing - incidentally, I detest them.

As for the original question, I have to agree - WHY?

Below (L-R) Crapuhut and Sommer und Ockenfüß bullpup rifles. N.B. the Sommer und Ockenfüß is a straight-pull bolt action operated by the pistol grip.

[BillySing]

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone here have experience of bullpup hunting/sniping rifles?

Yeah, I had a brief, yet vigorous introduction (p-)) with the AMP DSR No.1 in .300 winchester magnum, belonging to a good mate of mine.

I found it to be a thoroughly comfortable, exceptionally accurate and as a whole, simply put, magnificent.

The bullpup bolt takes some acquainting to, though after a few rounds, I found it to be a dead smooth operation. The magazine housing in the traditional location is also quite convenient, though at a first glance, highly confusing.

I would recommend one for the discerning (and cashed up) marksman.

For you Aussies, good old Hermann Finken has the complete set up...

http://www.sportingguns.com.au/Rifles/AMP/AMP.html

[theholeinthedonut]

The AMP has a very good reputation but I only got it from third hand sources and magazines though....so I won't put a bet on it. I read about the Crapahut but never saw a real one. Regarding the Sommer und Ockenfuss I met half a dozen hunters that used it and they were very happy with it, I once shot it , was nice but you can't really say much after shooting a gun twice.

[sempertalis]

The austrian armed forces have reworked their AUG so it can´t be changed to left-handed firing. There is no opening on the left side anymore. All the lefty´s must fire right-handed or they are made machine gunners.:roll:

[Hispeed1]

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[ZULU9niner]

Maybe a variation on the Bullpup design like the P90. I've fired FN FAL and Steyr AUG through my military service and recently fired the P90 in the States on holiday.

How difficult or worth while would it be to chamber a derivative design of the P90 to 5.56?

Mag on top, reduce it to say 30 rounds, offset the rounds in the mag at maybe 45* to reduce the thickness of the weapon. Ejection port at the bottom with fully ambidex controls? Longer barrel with maybe a forehand guard/grip?

Thoughts??

[oldsoak]

I think theres a need for bullpups that are ambidextrous simply because of the need to have some rifles pointing to right when going on patrol. Everytime I see sprogs on patrol, everyone has their Sa80 pointed to their left because its easier. I've almost developed a habit of looking to the left of a structure for SA80 barrels because thats where said sprog will be as it easier to stay in cover and shoot. The problem is compounded in the SA80 as the bolt handle is fixed to the bolt carrier. If they had a design like the Steyr where the handle is forward and on the left, it would be easier to shoot from the left shoulder - albeit with a few cartridge burns to the cheek. Still preferable to giving the oppo more to aim at when shooting around an obstacle.

[kutter]

Maybe a variation on the Bullpup design like the P90. I've fired FN FAL and Steyr AUG through my military service and recently fired the P90 in the States on holiday.

How difficult or worth while would it be to chamber a derivative design of the P90 to 5.56?

Mag on top, reduce it to say 30 rounds, offset the rounds in the mag at maybe 45* to reduce the thickness of the weapon. Ejection port at the bottom with fully ambidex controls? Longer barrel with maybe a forehand guard/grip?

Thoughts??

Theres the FN F2000 or the Kel-tec RFB with their forward ejection feature. They've pretty much solved the problem of an ambidextrous bullpup so maybe we'll start seeing bullpups gain more popularity since that was the major problem with them.

Plus they use existing magazines (F2000 with M-16 mags and the RFB with FAL) and ammo so it should make it easier to adopt them.

[sempertalis]

A few month ago I shot the new F2000. It´s really a fantastic weapon to shoot with. Even on full auto it´s very easy to handle. The only bull**** factor are major stopages (double feeding, etc.), in this case the only thing you can do to solve the problem is to break the weapon. Not really the thing you want to do in a battle. Other rifles, conventional or bullpups, don´t have this problem.

[Royal]

Um, when hell freezes over and pigs fly... Nada, zero, zilch, nil. Why bullpups? One advantage is you can have a long barrel and still have a short overall length for the rifle. But like the others, I'm a more conventional set-up guy when it comes to rifles like the others here.

And we've already determined that you're about as Hispeed as the guy who ran Baskin Robbins at Camp Doha in Kuwait, and therefore know nada about what USSF are actually doing...

Stay in your lane p-)

[Hispeed1]

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[Cpl.K]

I might look stupid

Well at least you got this right.

[Hispeed1]

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[Ironsight06]

Umm-ok, sure. No bullpup assault rifles for the US in the future-that's correct right? FN SCAR-L in the final testing phase, M4's still in use, .45 cal. pistol program cancelled for now, etc. I might sound stupid in here, but I do know a couple of things, things that I can't & won't talk about. woot
You are such a badass.

[D-gin]

You are such a Dumbass.


I know I read that wrong so I fixed it.

[California Joe]

Umm-ok, sure. No bullpup assault rifles for the US in the future-that's correct right? FN SCAR-L in the final testing phase, M4's still in use, .45 cal. pistol program cancelled for now, etc. I might sound stupid in here, but I do know a couple of things, things that I can't & won't talk about. woot

Wait till I waterboard your ass.

[Hollis]

but I do know a couple of things, things that I can't & won't talk about. woot


I think, most people would just prefered you just didn't talk... about anything. Reason is not important, just don't.

[Hispeed1]

You are such a badass.
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[Hispeed1]

0123456789

[oldsoak]

nothing personal, just mark the big guns - lots of real life experience there.

[DeltaWhisky58]

Woah, this is turning into the "Hate HISPEED1 thread" Kewl.

Perhaps if you acted less like a knob it might ease off, think about it.

[J-10]

Gun balance is, to a great extent, a matter of what you are used to. Bullpup users usually prefer the rearwards weight balance, arguing that it is easier to hold one-handed, or for extended periods, and makes the rifle quicker to change aim. What is undoubtedly true is that a bullpup is far more evenly balanced once an under-barrel grenade launcher, optical sights and other tactical kit (e.g. torches) start being added: a traditional rifle then becomes massively front-heavy.


http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs2/11053806/20061212/images/13804970_2006121211245888229500.jpg

http://image1.daqi.com/pic_search/original/21152/7d6b771529a698775fcf9dcaa952161c.jpg

http://postimg.mop.com/200604/26/54/178254/200604261732003165.jpg

http://heze.dzwww.com/tupian/hzxwtp/200611/W020061117323791091067.jpg

[velvet-cream]

I just came back from Lithgow, where I visited the small arms factory museum.

As expected there were the steyrs, minimis, SLRs and Lee-enfield type weapons. But they also have a whole heap of other foreign guns like mp-44, French Chauchat.

But back to bullpups - They had a British EM-2 there as well. Probably one of a handful (if not the only one) in Australia.

[GazB]

I have read that the Russians flirted with bullpup designs because with a scope and an under barrel grenade launcher an AK-74 gets very front heavy but then an AK-74 is already a relatively compact weapon as it is with the shorter barrel AKS-74U considered by users to be too short and therefore inaccurate with the AK-100 series there are models with long barrels and shorter barrels in several calibres.


Perhaps the real solution is not bullpups, but decent ammo that doesn't require a 20 inch tube to do something to the target.

(Note there is a model AK with a barrel as long as the M16... it is the RPK LMG)

[chaleau]

Maybe a variation on the Bullpup design like the P90. I've fired FN FAL and Steyr AUG through my military service and recently fired the P90 in the States on holiday.

How difficult or worth while would it be to chamber a derivative design of the P90 to 5.56?

Mag on top, reduce it to say 30 rounds, offset the rounds in the mag at maybe 45* to reduce the thickness of the weapon. Ejection port at the bottom with fully ambidex controls? Longer barrel with maybe a forehand guard/grip?

Thoughts??

I like the p90 and have wondered the same thing about it being beefed up for 556. Would solve lots of ergonomics issues. i.e. wronghanders vs. righthanders... jk

[jango]

The bullpup allows for better handling and firing in confided spaces. And will remain on target better then a traditional asault rifle becouse the soldier's body help control the kick back better. Also the barrel on a bullpup is a full length so the stopping power is the same as a tradional designed rifle.

[gilgoul]

I know I won't be issued any bullpup in the rest of my reservist time (another 10 to 12 years to go), and I wish I could.
I've been issued a sawn off M16 A1 for the two last reserve stints I did, and while pretty short and nice to show off with, they shoot like sh!t, give a huge flash and offer the accuracy of a sub standard SMG.
I didn't like the M16A1 lenght, but appreciated it's accuracy, now, all the idf has done by shortening all those rifles, was creating on the cheap PDW weapons.
The FAMAS, while not perfect, (beside the proprietary mag, extraction hook breaks easily, and the extraction is violent, the safety lever is stupidly placed, and some firing incidents are a pain to solve) is a great rifle, and the new Tavor, despite the lack of a trigger guard (how stupid), seems to have all of it's youth flaws corrected.
The capacity to engage at longer range is still a plus, so if it's doable with a compact weapon adapted to confined spaces, that's great.


I want a Tavor NOW

[GazB]

Also the barrel on a bullpup is a full length so the stopping power is the same as a tradional designed rifle.

Depends upon the ammo, the AKS-74U for example has been criticised for a lack of accuracy, but not for a lack of effectiveness on target...

The real problem that everyone seems to be ignoring is the 5.56mm ammo needs a 20 inch barrel to do its thing on target at acceptable combat ranges.

Adopting a 5.45 cal bullet design for the 5.56mm round would improve it immediately and probably improve ballistics as well due to the longer bullet being a better aerodynamic shape.

At the root of the problem the 5.45 is effective because it tumbles, while the 5.56 is effective because it fragments. The 5.56 will fragment only at certain velocities which requires specific target distances and specific barrel lengths. The 5.45mm round will tumble at any range (all bullets tumble anyway) at any speed from any length barrel.

[kongman]

how many companies make 7.62 or heavy bullpups, i know the IDF did make one .......based on the m-14.....but who else does .....some of us old timers like the bigger boomsticks ..........if i had a choice between styer and a SLR ide still pick the SLR .......so do they make any ???

[Herrmannek]

I know I won't be issued any bullpup in the rest of my reservist time (another 10 to 12 years to go), and I wish I could.
I've been issued a sawn off M16 A1 for the two last reserve stints I did, and while pretty short and nice to show off with, they shoot like sh!t, give a huge flash and offer the accuracy of a sub standard SMG.
I didn't like the M16A1 lenght, but appreciated it's accuracy, now, all the idf has done by shortening all those rifles, was creating on the cheap PDW weapons.
The FAMAS, while not perfect, (beside the proprietary mag, extraction hook breaks easily, and the extraction is violent, the safety lever is stupidly placed, and some firing incidents are a pain to solve) is a great rifle, and the new Tavor, despite the lack of a trigger guard (how stupid), seems to have all of it's youth flaws corrected.
The capacity to engage at longer range is still a plus, so if it's doable with a compact weapon adapted to confined spaces, that's great.


I want a Tavor NOW
Thats new... In the past years I was hearing only bad things about the rifle... Bad in the sense no one wants it, not anything particularly bad about the gun itself...

[GazB]

..........if i had a choice between styer and a SLR ide still pick the SLR .......so do they make any ???

Don't see why they couldn't.

My SLR has the main recoil spring in the buttstock, but there were folding stock models of the FN FAL so it certainly should be possible.

Have also seen bullpup models of the M14 and of course the bullpup model Dragunov SVU if you want to use an eastern 308 round.

[Andy-M]

how many companies make 7.62 or heavy bullpups, i know the IDF did make one .......based on the m-14.....but who else does .....some of us old timers like the bigger boomsticks ..........if i had a choice between styer and a SLR ide still pick the SLR .......so do they make any ???

It got a mention earlier in the thread, a 7.62mm Bullpup Kel-tec RFB rifle

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn75-e.htm

[SMGLee]

I never found the bullpup to be anything but a nice design with many flews.

this can be a debate that becomes the AK vs. AR or the 308 vs. 556, or Coke vs. pepis......

I can't transition to support shoulder for CQB, slower mag changes are mostly my complains.

F2000 resolved some of those problems, but I just did not like the gun with some those mechanicism that lift the spent brass into the ejection tube along with the ejection tube spiting the brass forward out of a portal.

and mag changes are still slow....

[SMGLee]

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs2/11053806/20061212/images/13804970_2006121211245888229500.jpg

This have nothing to do with the gun and its abilities, but that is just one of the ugliest gun out there.

great rounds, but poor egronomics, and poor overall form and platform design.

[ZULU9niner]

Recently one of my mates was doing range trials with the FN2000 here in Ireland. Same complaints as what have been said. Too big and bulky and stoppages regarding spent brass collecting in the ejection port requiring stripping of the weapon.

Weapons training here in Ireland is right hand only shooting, has been even with the FN FAL and Lee Enfield. With the ejection port of the Steyr AUG directly across from the cheek weld position on the left side, its effectively canceled out left shoulder firing.

Two issues with this.

In FIBUA (CQB), you might have to fire from around a left side open corner. Being able to shoot from this position without bringing the whole body out would be nice.

secondly. Lying down or in confined spaces, you might have a perfect Point of Fire but can only be used if left shoulder fired.

With the P90 i fired. I tried it out both right and left handed. While grouping was terrible on the left shoulder I still was able to hit centre mass at 40m. Down to practise I guess.

So to sum up. Any bullpup that calls its self ambidextrous should be that, with out modification. Seems the best way of doing that is eject casings forward or down.

[Scotus]

I think theres a need for bullpups that are ambidextrous simply because of the need to have some rifles pointing to right when going on patrol. Everytime I see sprogs on patrol, everyone has their Sa80 pointed to their left because its easier. I've almost developed a habit of looking to the left of a structure for SA80 barrels because thats where said sprog will be as it easier to stay in cover and shoot. The problem is compounded in the SA80 as the bolt handle is fixed to the bolt carrier. If they had a design like the Steyr where the handle is forward and on the left, it would be easier to shoot from the left shoulder - albeit with a few cartridge burns to the cheek. Still preferable to giving the oppo more to aim at when shooting around an obstacle.I think the L85A2 is an excellent weapon, but that is indeed a problem on patrol.

The L85A2 has fantastic accuracy, but I find - as do others - that shooting from the kneeling unsupported position is extremely difficult to achieve an adequate standard compared to non-bullpup weapons. I find that because the weight is concentrated differently that it makes even the steadiest left arm wobble slightly.

[red dragon]

Gun balance is, to a great extent, a matter of what you are used to. Bullpup users usually prefer the rearwards weight balance, arguing that it is easier to hold one-handed, or for extended periods, and makes the rifle quicker to change aim. What is undoubtedly true is that a bullpup is far more evenly balanced once an under-barrel grenade launcher, optical sights and other tactical kit (e.g. torches) start being added: a traditional rifle then becomes massively front-heavy.



http://military.china.com/zh_cn/bbs2/11053806/20061212/images/13804970_2006121211245888229500.jpg

http://image1.daqi.com/pic_search/original/21152/7d6b771529a698775fcf9dcaa952161c.jpg

http://postimg.mop.com/200604/26/54/178254/200604261732003165.jpg

http://heze.dzwww.com/tupian/hzxwtp/200611/W020061117323791091067.jpg

Who fires a rifle one handed other than Arnold? Wouldn't the recoil from the larger cartridge make anything more than one shot off target? And as far as just holding it single handed in a non-combat ready position, isn't that what a sling is for?

PS. I'd let those two Chinese girls in the second picture slap me around a bit.

[big_les]

...while the 5.56 is effective because it fragments. The 5.56 will fragment only at certain velocities which requires specific target distances and specific barrel lengths.

Make that the American 5.56. The British, and possibly other European versions, have strengthened jackets that prevent fragmentation. So you end up with the same sort of performance as a 5.45 (but probably tumbling later than that round).

[oldsoak]

Make that the American 5.56. The British, and possibly other European versions, have strengthened jackets that prevent fragmentation. So you end up with the same sort of performance as a 5.45 (but probably tumbling later than that round).

- 5.56 differ in composition - a lot of NATO stuff is mild steel core with a gliding jacket and it doesnt break up easily. Swiss RUAG has a lead core which makes it heavier with different characteristics.

[big_les]

Allegedly the L2A2 rounds that Radway Green produces were designed specifically not to fragment. Even more allegedly, it was to avoid press attention in Northern Ireland re the use of what could be (stupidly) seen as "dum dum" bullets.

No evidence for this mind you, besides the L2A2s definitely sporting nice thick jackets over the original 5.56 round.

[Tony Williams]

- 5.56 differ in composition - a lot of NATO stuff is mild steel core with a gliding jacket and it doesnt break up easily. Swiss RUAG has a lead core which makes it heavier with different characteristics.

As far as I'm aware, there is only one 5.56mm ball round which is the subject of a NATO standardisation agreement, and that's the Belgian SS109 (made in the USA as the M855). This has a hardened steel element in the tip, with a lead base. There may be detailed differences in production (thicker jackets have already been mentioned) but the idea is that they should be interchangeable and have more or less the same performance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[GazB]

It was my understanding that it wasn't jacket thickness that was at issue, though I have heard that some shots with the very early M193 rounds didn't hit targets because they disintigrated in mid air on the way down range.

It is the cannelure on the bullet that creates the weakpoint for the fragmentation. As the bullet tumbles after impact (note all bullets tumble after impacting another medium, not just high velocity projectiles) when it turns to 90 degrees off its direction of travel the bending forces on the bullet itself are quite high. If the barrel is 20 inches and the bullet is travelling above x velocity (ie it hits the target within xxx metres of the muzzle) then the bullet will fragment along the cannelure or crimping indentations around the projectile.
Have had a lot of people claim that the cannelure is there for bullet seating reasons to stop it being pushed into the case and increase pressure to unsafe levels. Of course most of the 223 calibre ammo I have seen haven't had the case neck bend into the crimp line so I really don't understand how the cannelure is supposed to work... except if it is there just to create a stuctural weakness in the projectile design.

Regarding where bullpups eject their cases there is no reason why the magazine can't be moved a little forward and allow the mechanism to recoil back behind the mag one cartridge length clear so the empty case could be ejected downwards behind the mag position. Sure it would make the barrel slightly shorter, but you could make it work by changing to a 5.45 type projectile to make the 5.56 more lethal but not requiring 20 inches of barrel to be effective. It would guaranteed the rifle could be made ambidextrous without flipping anything over... cheekpads on both sides for example.

In my opinion you might lose 2 inches of barrel but the extra recoil distance should improve handling and lower rate of fire to make shooting bursts more managable.

[CG51]

This have nothing to do with the gun and its abilities, but that is just one of the ugliest gun out there.

great rounds, but poor egronomics, and poor overall form and platform design.


I am curious, are there any members here other than our Chinese members that have fired the QBZ-95? What is your overall impression?

[oldsoak]

As far as I'm aware, there is only one 5.56mm ball round which is the subject of a NATO standardisation agreement, and that's the Belgian SS109 (made in the USA as the M855). This has a hardened steel element in the tip, with a lead base. There may be detailed differences in production (thicker jackets have already been mentioned) but the idea is that they should be interchangeable and have more or less the same performance.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

- I'm not sure how rigidly we stick to it. I've been told that the L85 has problems
with US ammo and they have bought RG ammo but its cleared for training only. Now if they were one and the same - why the restrictions ?
Incidently, I've been picking up a lot of RUAG ammo cases on MoD ranges recently - a potential supplier perhaps now that we're set on losing RG ?

[DeltaWhisky58]

- I'm not sure how rigidly we stick to it. I've been told that the L85 has problems
with US ammo and they have bought RG ammo but its cleared for training only. Now if they were one and the same - why the restrictions ?
Incidently, I've been picking up a lot of RUAG ammo cases on MoD ranges recently - a potential supplier perhaps now that we're set on losing RG ?

RUAG has been supplying the British military for some considerable time now. 20mm Oerlikon ammo, grenades etc., etc., nothing new. RUAG have a British company.

[Cpl.K]

Who fires a rifle one handed other than Arnold? Wouldn't the recoil from the larger cartridge make anything more than one shot off target? And as far as just holding it single handed in a non-combat ready position, isn't that what a sling is for?


Lol...don't overanalyze pictures man, I don't have to go further than my buddies' memory cards from military service to see far more "stupid" things being done with weapons than holding them with one hand.

[Hollis]

Who fires a rifle one handed other than Arnold? Wouldn't the recoil from the larger cartridge make anything more than one shot off target? And as far as just holding it single handed in a non-combat ready position, isn't that what a sling is for?




I was trained to shoot the M14 one handedly and accurately. The shooting tecniques taught today, are different enough that I would not use it to shoot one handedly. With the older method the shooter was able to handled recoil much better. (there's more)

There are pros and cons to slings.

[Tony Williams]

- I'm not sure how rigidly we stick to it. I've been told that the L85 has problems
with US ammo and they have bought RG ammo but its cleared for training only. Now if they were one and the same - why the restrictions ?
Yes, I've heard that also. That's why I said "the idea is that they should be interchangeable" because in practice ammo seems to be fine-tuned to best suit the national gun.


Incidently, I've been picking up a lot of RUAG ammo cases on MoD ranges recently - a potential supplier perhaps now that we're set on losing RG ?
I'm not aware that we're losing RG. I had a tour of the factory a couple of months ago and they were talking about reaching a long-term supply agreement with MoD which would enable them to modernise the production line.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[big_les]

It was my understanding that it wasn't jacket thickness that was at issue, though I have heard that some shots with the very early M193 rounds didn't hit targets because they disintigrated in mid air on the way down range.

It is the cannelure on the bullet that creates the weakpoint for the fragmentation. As the bullet tumbles after impact (note all bullets tumble after impacting another medium, not just high velocity projectiles) when it turns to 90 degrees off its direction of travel the bending forces on the bullet itself are quite high. If the barrel is 20 inches and the bullet is travelling above x velocity (ie it hits the target within xxx metres of the muzzle) then the bullet will fragment along the cannelure or crimping indentations around the projectile.

Not with the L2A2 bullet, so I've been told. As I said, no idea whether it really was fear of legal action that prompted the change (it's just as likely to be a change in spec made for some other reason, MoD being blissfully unaware or uncaring that terminal ballistics would be affected), but the change is there nonetheless.


Have had a lot of people claim that the cannelure is there for bullet seating reasons to stop it being pushed into the case and increase pressure to unsafe levels. Of course most of the 223 calibre ammo I have seen haven't had the case neck bend into the crimp line so I really don't understand how the cannelure is supposed to work... except if it is there just to create a stuctural weakness in the projectile design.

Pretty sure (I think "Black Rifle" covers this) that the cannelure was not originally designed to result in fragmentation, but (as you've been told) to prevent bullet set-back. Admittedly it doesn't seem that rounds these days are ever crimped, but I think that's what the cannelure is there to allow. Cannelures are by no means restricted to 5.56mm rounds, and the idea pre-dates them by some time. That the feature made the bullet far more lethal was an unexpected bonus feature that the US has decided to retain. It seems we haven't.

It isn't just variants of 5.56 that fragment like this - the German made version of the 7.62 NATO round did something very similar, whereas the US variant, having a thicker or more robust jacket, stayed intact.

[GazB]

Who fires a rifle one handed other than Arnold? Wouldn't the recoil from the larger cartridge make anything more than one shot off target? And as far as just holding it single handed in a non-combat ready position, isn't that what a sling is for?

I am guessing the photo of the Chinese gentleman holding two guns each with one hand including one gun with a bayonette and scope and the other with an under barrel 40mm grenade launcher and scope is to show that the extra weight does not unbalance them the way adding grenade launchers and scopes do with conventional layout rifles. It is my understanding that the Russians specifically developed bullpups because with a large night vision scope and an underbarrel grenade launcher the AK becomes very front heavy so they were looking at a bullpup for the grenadier in the platoon so that his rifle could be better balanced.


I've been told that the L85 has problems
with US ammo and they have bought RG ammo but its cleared for training only.

I remember reading it was the cheap M16 magazines that were the cause of some of the feeding problems.


Pretty sure (I think "Black Rifle" covers this) that the cannelure was not originally designed to result in fragmentation, but (as you've been told) to prevent bullet set-back. Admittedly it doesn't seem that rounds these days are ever crimped, but I think that's what the cannelure is there to allow. Cannelures are by no means restricted to 5.56mm rounds, and the idea pre-dates them by some time. That the feature made the bullet far more lethal was an unexpected bonus feature that the US has decided to retain. It seems we haven't.


I agree it wasn't intentional, because at the time it was assumed the lethality of the round came purely from velocity. Experience however, partcularly with shorter barrels and different rounds that did not have cannelures I think they realised that that was what made this particular round effective so it was kept.

[oldsoak]

@GazB IIRC the Radway Green ammo was cleared for training only in the US as it apparently has different burn charcateristics to the US M855. I've been told that its a slightly "hotter" round and the propellant is not best suited to the direct gas action of the M16 ( which is odd - I've shot RG ammo in Deimaco's in Holland ) and fouls the action more. The problems with US ammo are allegedly that it is more ****e to incomplete cycling of the working parts in the SA80/L85. It can be used in emergencies only - like the lead up to Telic when our ammo was still en route by sea so we had to get ammo of the US.

@ Tony - I was under the impression that RG contract is up in 2010 and BAe is shutting it down on economic grounds ( if they dont get the next contract ) with the result that we're going to have to go to a.n.other for ammo in the future. i'll try and get the link.

-heres a snippet - not the original article
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/DefenceNewsDailyarchiveSaturday12MayFriday25May2007.htm

[SMGLee]

I've been told that its a slightly "hotter" round and the propellant is not best suited to the direct gas action of the M16

The earlier RG ammo was downloaded in order not to induce too much wear on the SA80, that is why it had problems in a M16 DI guns, there wasn't enough powder to get the recoil cycling. the later stuff are supposed to be much better with the improved Sa80a2 in service...

[cmhm20]

The earlier RG ammo was downloaded in order not to induce too much wear on the SA80, that is why it had problems in a M16 DI guns, there wasn't enough powder to get the recoil cycling. the later stuff are supposed to be much better with the improved Sa80a2 in service...


The movie in this thread http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125477 shows one of the guys having one stoppage after the other. He is very adept in clearing them, that for sure. It makes me wonder how improved the SA80A2 really is.

[DeltaWhisky58]

The movie in this thread http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125477 shows one of the guys having one stoppage after the other. He is very adept in clearing them, that for sure. It makes me wonder how improved the SA80A2 really is.

More likely to be the result of crap non-standard ammo our government keeps on buying. Using ammo which complies to NATO/STANAG standards is one thing when it's properly manufactured as such, but when you buy it from the cheapest bidder you get sh!te.

At present 5.56x45mm/7.62x51mm/12.7x99mm ammo is being sourced from all over the place, and some of it is truly awful, e.g. the recent .50cal debacle in Afghanistan.

[big_les]

More likely to be the result of crap non-standard ammo our government keeps on buying. Using ammo which complies to NATO/STANAG standards is one thing when it's properly manufactured as such, but when you buy it from the cheapest bidder you get sh!te.

At present 5.56x45mm/7.62x51mm/12.7x99mm ammo is being sourced from all over the place, and some of it is truly awful, e.g. the recent .50cal debacle in Afghanistan.

So not all of the 5.56 stuff is L2A2?

[DeltaWhisky58]

So not all of the 5.56 stuff is L2A2?

It may be claimed to be to NATO standards, but not necessarily so. I remember large batches of 7.62x51mm & 9x19mm being purchased from India, the 7.62 wasn't so bad, but the 9mm was very erratice in quality, some rounds being hotter than hell, and others with hardly enough power to cycle a BHP or Sterling SMG. I believe that same can be said of much contract ammo made outwith NATO or other Advanced countries - I will not name any for risk of offense..

[big_les]

So instead of all of the British 5.56 being "clean-wounding" like US M995 (as I'd thought), it's more likely that some of it is, some of it isn't - you won't know from one batch to the next. And the same probably goes for its reliability, stability in flight, etc etc. Typical of British defence procurement really..

[Tony Williams]

@GazB IIRC the Radway Green ammo was cleared for training only in the US as it apparently has different burn charcateristics to the US M855. I've been told that its a slightly "hotter" round and the propellant is not best suited to the direct gas action of the M16 ( which is odd - I've shot RG ammo in Deimaco's in Holland ) and fouls the action more. The problems with US ammo are allegedly that it is more ****e to incomplete cycling of the working parts in the SA80/L85. It can be used in emergencies only - like the lead up to Telic when our ammo was still en route by sea so we had to get ammo of the US.

This is what I was told (an extract form my web article on the SA80):


"One interesting comment from a soldier involved in the trials, is that not all NATO 5.56 mm ammunition performs in the same way. The trials were conducted using British ammo, but some German and American types were tried. It was found that the German ammo fouled the gas ports very quickly, whereas the US ammo sometimes didn't seem to produce enough pressure to **** the gun reliably, with a stoppage occurring once every one or two magazines."


@ Tony - I was under the impression that RG contract is up in 2010 and BAe is shutting it down on economic grounds ( if they dont get the next contract ) with the result that we're going to have to go to a.n.other for ammo in the future. i'll try and get the link.

-heres a snippet - not the original article
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/DefenceNewsDailyarchiveSaturday12MayFriday25May2007.htm


"A newspaper has reported that the MOD is ‘sounding out’ European suppliers of bullets as BAE systems, who the current contract is with, may shut down their Royal Ordnance munitions factories. Long term security of supply for general munitions is vital, and the MOD is putting in place arrangements to achieve this. BAES have submitted their proposals and we are working with them on a solution that delivers security of supply and value for money to the taxpayer."

I think that the last sentence is the key: BAE wants to stay in the ammo production business, but needs a long-term commitment to make the investment worthwhile. The haggling is doubtless going on...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[oldsoak]

By the looks of it then

RG's future depends on HMG contract - sounds a bit like the NI factor in the 80's....tie it to employment.

UK ammo is hotter - well , at least it generates a higher MV and it does work well in M16's - NL and UK use it. ( so not sure why its cleared for training only in US )

[oldsoak]

as promised...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article1821505.ece

[Bitter Muppet]

I'd have to say that the general ergonomics for bullpups are much better (for me) than the traditional setup.
My only concern is the occasional CATASTROPHIC FAILURE that you hear about. Would you really want that happening next to your temple?

[RS_Leo1A5]

My only concern is the occasional CATASTROPHIC FAILURE that you hear about. Would you really want that happening next to your temple?
In some past thread someone posted pictures of a SAR-21 that had suffered a chamber explosion without harming the shooter - in that gun the side facing the shooters face is extra hardened, directing an explosion's blow in the opposite direction.

[Tony Williams]

In some past thread someone posted pictures of a SAR-21 that had suffered a chamber explosion without harming the shooter - in that gun the side facing the shooters face is extra hardened, directing an explosion's blow in the opposite direction.

Yes, I've seen that pic too. The SAR-21 has a kevlar-reinforced cheekpiece specifically to protect the shooter against a chamber explosion.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[gafkiwi]

[QUOTE=Tony Williams;2962944]Yes, I've seen that pic too. The SAR-21 has a kevlar-reinforced cheekpiece specifically to protect the shooter against a chamber explosion.

Was that a problem with originally Sar 21s? I've never heard of it happening with our steyrs. The main problem I've had with our cheekpiece is carbon leaching out leaving the firer with a black cheek. Only other problem was the ejection port cover on the unused ejection port, occaissionally comming loose. Our armouers quick fix super glue, if it has to be swapped Lto R or R to L ejecting the super glue breaks cleanly.

Mind you I've seen the effects of a 40mm Chalk rd hitting a steyr (stock) at 100m and ricochetting into the steyr owners shoulder!!!

[velvet-cream]

Mind you I've seen the effects of a 40mm Chalk rd hitting a steyr (stock) at 100m and ricochetting into the steyr owners shoulder!!!

wtf? Were you guys lobbing 40mm prac rounds at each other? ha!!

[Jippo]

Was that a problem with originally Sar 21s?

More often than not it is not a issue with the rifle itself. More likely obstruction in a barrel or faulty ammunition.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Mind you I've seen the effects of a 40mm Chalk rd hitting a steyr (stock) at 100m and ricochetting into the steyr owners shoulder!!!

You Alpha Coy cowboys...p-)

[flanker7]

SAR-21 also has a sort of gas vent wich in case of an explosion directs all the gasses to the right of the gun, away from the shooter

[gafkiwi]

wtf? Were you guys lobbing 40mm prac rounds at each other? ha!!

Well its what you get when someone higher up thinks its a good idear to have all the Bn grenadiers carrying chalk rds during blank training and for them just to use the live firing safety angle as an aim off for any enemy party. It worked initally.......I think they forgot the M-79s(203s were only just comming in) were normally issued to the newbies in the section and not being the sharpest guy 3 shots later
"CHECK FIRING"
Yup Alpha Coy strikes again!!!
Mind you this all happened in Aussy though.