Operation Stargate

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Here is a very interesting article on the CIA and the paranormal.....http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=19081

Interesting read.

Lets keep the stupid comments and silly pictures down to none at all. This subject is quite legitimate, and you would be surprised to what both the Russians and the USA were up to during the cold war, and to an extent, today. So, please have an open mind, and enjoy the article.

I first heard that the Russians were getting really involved in the paranormal for warfare usage from all things, an actual blurb from a military publication during the 1980's, when I was in Germany.

The CIA also did experiments with LSD and other types of trippy drugs, and this ties into what pschyic research they were doing.

[Mofreaka]

This is what there really talking about :)

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7263/136oph01zr5.jpg

[Rudolph]

That's the only Stargate I'm interested in...

[SOG]

http://www.akashicuniversity.com/articles/RemoteVAS.htm

very interesting indeed, also very old news so to speak. major ed dames is weird guy. lots of books and articles about remote viewing. also of side interest is a much less talked about program that has some connection to remote viewing is remote action. hadn't heard of that til a couple years ago.

[AztecMex]

That's the only Stargate I'm interested in...
Same here:)

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I heard about the use of psychics to try and find James Dozier in Italy before. As I recall, they weren't very helpful...

[big_les]

So-called psychics and remote viewers have done precisely squat for anyone's military intelligence, despite millions of taxpayers dollars/pounds/whatever being splashed on something without even a theoretical scientific basis.

[Polygon]

This is what there really talking about :)



RDA for the win!

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Please refrain from posting humor or stupid comments about a legitimate subject. I found it kind of strange that the CIA AND KGB both were investigating the use of psychics, and other types of paranormal phenomenon during the cold war.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

Please refrain from posting humor or stupid comments about a legitimate subject. I found it kind of strange that the CIA AND KGB both were investigating the use of psychics, and other types of paranormal phenomenon during the cold war.

I think it goes to show how the CIA and KGB investigated ANYTHING that might somehow maybe be useful during the Cold War.

[big_les]

^Bingo. This is only a legitimate story in the sense that authorities really will throw money at anything that might give them an edge.

It also shows how anyone can fall for paranormal BS, no matter how well educated and capable they are in their professional area.

None of these charlatans has ever consistently (if at all) performed better than chance. There's been 100 years of legitimate and not-so-legitimate research into ESP and the like, and not one significant result. There's even a $1 million prize for anyone that can demonstrate such abilities;

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

No-one has got past even the first stage. There is no evidence at all for these phenomena, whatever the notoriously unreliable WND site says about it.

[Asheren]

Yes there is no evidence but telepathy is only "paranormal" ability that might potentialy exist.

[big_les]

How, exactly?

[maple.leaf]

That's the only Stargate I'm interested in...

Hear, hear. I think it's really cool how they went for plain OD fatigues. :)

[Niels]

The supposed use of "psychic abilities" is a good way to cover up another (actual) way of gathering intelligence.

[Xaito]

personally I don't know if I believe in ESP and all that paranormal stuff but my mother and grandmother both swear they had a witch living in their village.
There were strange occurrences with her - the most strange beeing that when she was near death and doctors said she should have been dead already she wouldn't die for weeks until someone found out some rumor about how witches couldn't die until something was done (I don't remember what it was though - it was something simple like opening the window for the soul to escape or something like that ) and when they tried she died right away.

One of my mothers uncles said he was once followed on his way home from school (he was teacher) by a dog with red glowing eyes.
My brother says he once seen a burning sphere fly at high speed and low altitude in the sky and afterwards burning branches fell off some trees.

And there's the thing with a gypsy probably saving my life - when I was very young I was ill and some doctor messed up my stomach with antibiotics - I couldn't eat anything without throwing up afterwards - they tried different stuff but nothing helped - when my parents were desperate they visited this gypsy shaman and she gave them some root that helped me very soon - guess I should thank that my mother believed in paranormal abilities.

I've also heard from relatives that a woman from Bulgaria they know has used magic to make their dog stop pissing inside the house after they couldnt housebreak it.

well - I don't know what to believe - on the one hand I haven't witnessed anything strange like that personally and most of these stories sound strange, funny or unbelievable but on the other hand members of my family whom I trust that they wouldn't make up stuff like that say otherwise.

I'ts very interesting that the KGB and CIA both thought it was possible that paranormal powers do exist.

[Rudolph]

personally I don't know if I believe in ESP and all that paranormal stuff but my mother and grandmother both swear they had a witch living in their village.
There were strange occurrences with her - the stranhest beeing that when she was near death and doctors said she should have been dead already she wouldn't die for weeks until someone found out some rumor about how witches couldn't die until something was done (I don't remember what it was though - it was something simple like opening the window for the soul to escape or something like that ) and when they tried she died right away.

One of my mothers uncles said he was once followed on his way home from school (he was teacher) by a dog with red glowing eyes.
My brother says he once seen a burning sphere fly at high speed and low altitude in the sky and afterwards burning branches fell off some trees.

And there's the thing with a gypsy probably saving my life - when I was very young I was ill and some doctor messed up my stomach with antibiotics - I couldn't eat anything without throwing up afterwards - they tried different stuff but nothing helped - when my parents were desperate they visited this gypsy shaman and she gave them some root that helped me very soon - guess I should thank that my mother believed in paranormal abilities.

I've also heard from relatives that a woman from Bulgaria they know has used magic to make their dog stop pissing inside the house after they couldnt housebreak it.

well - I don't know what to believe - on the one hand I haven't witnessed anything strange like that personally and most of these stories sound strange, funny or unbelievable but on the other hand members of my family whom I trust that they wouldn't make up stuff like that say otherwise.

I'ts very interesting that the KGB and CIA both thought it was possible that paranormal powers do exist.

I honestly don't know what to say...

[Xaito]

I honestly don't know what to say...

Yeah I know it sounds strange.
Just told anything I remember hearing about paranormal stuff. :)
For me personally it's like with religion - I don't believe in it unless I witness something myself that convinces me to think otherwise but I don't rule out that I'm wrong.

[Mastermind]

I have to believe in the viability of the phenomenon...remote viewing, psychokenesis, previewing the future. I have had some really spooky experiences with such and some when I was in Vietnam...we had a guy who accurately predicted the deaths of six people the night before they were killed. He even predicted his own death the night before he was killed...I hated being around him...kept wondering how I might react if he woke up one morning and told me I was next! ...was it just pure luck? I don't have a clue.

But, here is the problem with this kind of phenomenon...what good is it if the results are not at least 80% accurate? Let's say there is a guy who can tell you with 30% accuracy what is going to happen tomorrow...how could you possibly put that information to work? If the guy was predicting stocks and bonds, you would go broke very quickly working reality cash on his predictions. The odds of pure chance guessing are about the same in my book.

Here is another problem. Most of the results seem to be called only after the fact...that is at the time of the "observation" the information was so sketchy, it was impossible to relate it to known facts. Like a psychic detective saying, "I see a red sign, a bridge, a ditch...a barbed wire fence, something "dark" and a church steeple." Okay, that covers just about anywhere in the world. But, after the body is found, sure enough, most of those things are in the vicinity....that does not mean the psychic was accurate...only that the psychic named six very common things that could be intrepreted in a great many ways...a red sign could be as common as a stop sign or a red light...one of the most popular advertising colors is red...and ditches and fences are everywhere...as are churches and "dark" things. So what good is the information? It has absolutely no value at all until after the fact... and that is totally useless in the intelligence field.

I think such programs are worthless, to say the least. But, certainly well worth testing now and then....you never know when the real deal (the 80 percenter)will show up.

[big_les]

I have to believe in the viability of the phenomenon...remote viewing, psychokenesis, previewing the future. I have had some really spooky experiences with such and some when I was in Vietnam...we had a guy who accurately predicted the deaths of six people the night before they were killed. He even predicted his own death the night before he was killed...I hated being around him...kept wondering how I might react if he woke up one morning and told me I was next! ...was it just pure luck? I don't have a clue.

Not so much luck as probability. Think about it this way - the chances of either of us winning the lottery are high, right? 14 million to one in the case of the UK Lotto. And yet somebody in the country is guaranteed to win. It's actually pretty likely that what might seem like weird shyte is going to happen to you at some time in your life. We also tend not to think about the times when predictions, dreams, whatever, aren't right. Like the old chestnut about thinking about a friend and then the phone rings - how many times do we think about people and the phone doesn't ring. Again, it's counter-intuitive probability, not paranormal abilities.


But, here is the problem with this kind of phenomenon...what good is it if the results are not at least 80% accurate? Let's say there is a guy who can tell you with 30% accuracy what is going to happen tomorrow...how could you possibly put that information to work? If the guy was predicting stocks and bonds, you would go broke very quickly working reality cash on his predictions. The odds of pure chance guessing are about the same in my book.

Exactly right. None of these tests show results better than chance. Even if on some undetectable level they really are "psychic", they're only as good as the rest of us on pure guesswork! To me, that's the same as them not being psychic.


Here is another problem. Most of the results seem to be called only after the fact...that is at the time of the "observation" the information was so sketchy, it was impossible to relate it to known facts. Like a psychic detective saying, "I see a red sign, a bridge, a ditch...a barbed wire fence, something "dark" and a church steeple." Okay, that covers just about anywhere in the world. But, after the body is found, sure enough, most of those things are in the vicinity....that does not mean the psychic was accurate...only that the psychic named six very common things that could be intrepreted in a great many ways...a red sign could be as common as a stop sign or a red light...one of the most popular advertising colors is red...and ditches and fences are everywhere...as are churches and "dark" things. So what good is the information? It has absolutely no value at all until after the fact... and that is totally useless in the intelligence field.

Again, you've nailed it. I would say that the vagueness is intrinsic to the methods that are really behind so-called psychic powers. Try googling "cold reading" to see what I mean.


I think such programs are worthless, to say the least. But, certainly well worth testing now and then....you never know when the real deal (the 80 percenter)will show up.

I suppose. But given that every test in the last 100 years has proven negative, why should we have taxpayer's money thrown at it just on the offchance? Let a psychic win the $1million prize first, then we can rope them in for intelligence work (not to mention a Nobel Prize, place in the history books, worldwide adulation and fame...)

[NeoConPatriot]

Please refrain from posting humor or stupid comments about a legitimate subject. I found it kind of strange that the CIA AND KGB both were investigating the use of psychics, and other types of paranormal phenomenon during the cold war.

I think the the CIA gay bomb is more "legitimate" than this.

From Wikipedia-
Wright Laboratory won the 2007 Ig Nobel Peace Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize) for "instigating research & development on a chemical weapon—the so-called 'gay bomb'—that will make enemy soldiers become ******ly irresistible to each other."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bomb#_note-0) However, Air Force personnel contacted were not willing to attend the award ceremony at Harvard University's Sanders Theater to accept the award in person.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

This is not a vouch for the validity of Operation Stargate by the CIA, or the use of psychics in military intellegence, but here is some more food for thought.

The former Soviet Union, was quite heavily into ESP, telekensis, remote viewing, and other paranormal research, and they were WAY more advanced than the USA. And, yes, they actually did find some people who could bend spoons by thinking, along with a few powerful psychics.

The thread was started in the intent of a disscussion about the military useage of paranormal research, and the CIA's operation stargate, which was a legitimare intellegence operation that was in operation for quite some time, and even used to some extent in operation Desert Shield/storm during the 1991 war with Iraq.

The government, no matter how careless and silly it may seem, just does not put millions into a program, without some sort of pay back, not matter how successful or unsuccessful it may be.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

I think the the CIA gay bomb is more "legitimate" than this.

From Wikipedia-
Wright Laboratory won the 2007 Ig Nobel Peace Prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize) for "instigating research & development on a chemical weapon—the so-called 'gay bomb'—that will make enemy soldiers become ******ly irresistible to each other."[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bomb#_note-0) However, Air Force personnel contacted were not willing to attend the award ceremony at Harvard University's Sanders Theater to accept the award in person.

If you think about the bizzareness of the gay bomb, it is quite frightening that the technology to use phermones as a legitimate weapon, was being devoloped for possible use. And if they technology for phermone based chemicals is being tested, just think about designer genetic based viruses and other things we think are just fiction.

In todays technology driven battlefield, we seem to forget the simplest and most unthinkable reasearch is quite often going on, and being put to tests for useage at sometime.

[Group9]

Megaraptor;2957765']I think it goes to show how the CIA and KGB investigated ANYTHING that might somehow maybe be useful during the Cold War.

That's what I think. I grew up in the cold war, and people who didn't can't believe how much money the US and the SU spent on it (where do people think the huge peace dividends and surplus budgets of the 90's came from?).

There probably wasn't any idea, no matter how ridiculous, that couldn't get some money allocated to it.

[big_les]

The former Soviet Union, was quite heavily into ESP, telekensis, remote viewing, and other paranormal research, and they were WAY more advanced than the USA. And, yes, they actually did find some people who could bend spoons by thinking, along with a few powerful psychics.

Evidence for this?


The thread was started in the intent of a disscussion about the military useage of paranormal research, and the CIA's operation stargate, which was a legitimare intellegence operation that was in operation for quite some time, and even used to some extent in operation Desert Shield/storm during the 1991 war with Iraq.

The government, no matter how careless and silly it may seem, just does not put millions into a program, without some sort of pay back, not matter how successful or unsuccessful it may be.

Yes, it does/they do. All the time, in fact. They take a calculated risk that their investment may not pay off, or may provide an unforeseen side benefit. Look at something like the OICW or the RAH-66. Same thing here, but with less chance of a payoff (if they'd bothered to pay attention to the total lack of evidence before embarking on the project in the first place).

[Andreas]

Sometimes I log on and wonder if someone smuggled and detonated a Gay-bomb here on the board..

That aside, I think 90% of stories about this topic can be explained.
I do belive there are more things between heaven and earth than can be explained. Its just that I havent had any weird experiances, and sort of hope not to..

Dont want any "remote viewers" checking out my ass while enjoying quality time with the lady...p-)

Cheers
Andreas

[SOG]

whatever the percent success of remote viewing were, i guess it wasn't a total loss since quite a bit of the program remains classified.

as mastermind said, even if you can make out details they are useless to some extent because they apply to so many places so what you are looking for could be anywhere. however, pending WHAT you are looking for, that may narrow it down.

remote viewing seems to have a not so good success rate as do psychics etc. but then again i wouldn't entirely dismiss it. nobody is right all the time. that's pretty much a fact in our world. many pundits of the paranormal often expect the results of "paranormal predictions" to be 100% accurate all the time then cry foul when they are not. but why? do they somehow connect a paranormal intuition to a higher god-like knowledge? yet another assumption on behalf of pundits.

then again, if psychic knowledge is so unstable or undependable then there really is no reason to invest in it or its practice when an educated person on the subject at hand could make good as or better predictions.

so in the end, if psychic powers etc are real, they seem largely relegated to being about as useful as anyone else's opinion and therefore have no relevance overall in society except in rare or extreme cases. IE like mastermind mentioned in vietnam. maybe some individuals can tap into a higher highway for a very narrow or specific focus.

[Xaito]

then again, if psychic knowledge is so unstable or undependable then there really is no reason to invest in it or its practice when an educated person on the subject at hand could make good as or better predictions.

Investing in something that is still not researched might be not a bad idea though - first try to understand and then utilize it.

[SOG]

true, i guess if we understood such and such phenomena we might be able to discern the nature of it all and therefore make it more accurate by dismissing known pitfalls. however, understanding it... beats the hell out of me. i guess that is why research still continues.

[Albatross]

The CIA and KGB have tried and retried psychic advantages for years, never heard anything about it working. Pretty sure everyone who says they can do it, comes on TV then gets proven a fake. I love the fact that this actually made the board though.

[big_les]

whatever the percent success of remote viewing were, i guess it wasn't a total loss since quite a bit of the program remains classified.

That doesn't follow. All sorts of things remain classified purely because the government would rather not let everybody know exactly what resources (and people) were involved in a given project. It by no means suggests that they found something.


remote viewing seems to have a not so good success rate as do psychics etc.

Just like remote viewers, no psychic has been able to achieve results better than chance either. They could have won the $1 million prize that I linked to above, rewritten the science textbooks, and so on.


but then again i wouldn't entirely dismiss it. nobody is right all the time. that's pretty much a fact in our world. many pundits of the paranormal often expect the results of "paranormal predictions" to be 100% accurate all the time then cry foul when they are not. but why? do they somehow connect a paranormal intuition to a higher god-like knowledge? yet another assumption on behalf of pundits.

Sceptics don't require 100% accuracy, just results that are at all consistently better than guesswork. No one has achieved this in the long history of paranormal studies.


so in the end, if psychic powers etc are real, they seem largely relegated to being about as useful as anyone else's opinion and therefore have no relevance overall in society

Bingo. Put it this way, if there is any such thing as psychic powers, an absolute water-tight government conspiracy is about the only way they could be hidden from the rest of us. And I don't think you want to go down the tin-foil hat route...

[Shadowstorm]

And what about Nostradamus, Edgar Casey and other psychics. They predicted stuff like French Revolution, WWI and WWII and JFK assassination and 9/11.

[big_les]

I'm sorry, but they really didn't. It's all fitted to events after the fact.

http://skepdic.com/nostrada.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcayce.html

[Shadowstorm]

That stuff proves nothing.

[big_les]

Let's take just one of them, shall we? The notion that Nostradamus predicted 9/11.

Hoax, pure and simple - http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/predict.htm

[Shadowstorm]

It was not only Nostradamus who predicted 9/11, but their was others who did too.

[Shadowstorm]

I know their some fakers and scammers out their who thinks their psychics, but their not. But a t.v show internet sites, people and books is not going to tell me their is no psychic at all, because they don't know ether. Their are over 6 billion people on this planet and who knows if their a psychic or not. I'm not one of these "tin foil hat people", I'm a common sense person and I'm am skeptical on stuff, like conspiracy theories and other stuff.

[big_les]

Of course we can't know that there are no psychics, just like we can't know that there isn't an elite team of invisible ninja squirrels that steals my socks. It's just that there's no reason to believe that there either thing exists until someone can produce some evidence. If you were looking to buy a car and a guy asked for a wad of cash up front without you having seen the car, or even known for sure that there was a car, you would laugh in his face. Same deal with me and psychics.

[dog1]

A bit of a round Earth society here?
Anyone remember Galileo?

"if" there was absolutely no way there were any concrete results coming back from such operations which were being allocated very big budgets over 20 years during the Cold War from BOTH SIDES - don't you think it would have been cut away if there was absolutely no solid test results?
I mean that is as long as the F-117 was being developed.

Maybe some governments with large military funding want to retain an edge over competition by not revealing what they know?

e.g. F-22 ?, B-2 ?, F-117?
These are projects out in the open. Now think about what they REALLY do not want out there.

The subject your talking about would have the most profound effects on science, and with that would come studies to prevent/counter.
At this point if it did really exist the argument to exploit such loopholes has validity.

[Shadowstorm]

Yeah, I agree on that.

[big_les]

A bit of a round Earth society here?
Anyone remember Galileo?

Huh? That the Earth was a sphere had been known for centuries in Galileo's time. Even uneducated sailors recognised this when they saw objects disappearing over the horizon.


"if" there was absolutely no way there were any concrete results coming back from such operations which were being allocated very big budgets over 20 years during the Cold War from BOTH SIDES - don't you think it would have been cut away if there was absolutely no solid test results?

The CIA shut down the project in 1994 precisely because it hadn't provided solid, reproduceable results. It did survive as a project for a long time with different departments. It was criticised for relying upon one judge to decide whether or not a sketch looked anything like the "target" site. This doesn't provide the necessary scientific "blinding" to produce statistically significant results. We don't actually know by what criteria things were judged a "hit". If you've ever read a horoscope you'll know that you can make descriptions fit by wishful thinking alone. Thus a wiggly line could be interpreted as a specific mountain range. This effect, called Subjective Validation, is what happens in civilian remote viewing tests, and I strongly suspect the same problem was rampant with Stargate. Attempts at replication also failed more often than they succeeded, suggesting that any hits that seemed really accurate were just as likely to be statistical anomaly. You need to be able to reproduce results in science.

Initially, in the dire days of cold war, funding was in easy supply for anything that might afford the West an edge. They thought there might be something in it, and if there were, the benefits would far outweigh the expenditure. From their PoV it makes sense to make absolutely sure that there's nothing for them to exploit.


I mean that is as long as the F-117 was being developed.

Maybe some governments with large military funding want to retain an edge over competition by not revealing what they know?

e.g. F-22 ?, B-2 ?, F-117?
These are projects out in the open. Now think about what they REALLY do not want out there.

Aircraft and their equipment and weapons, no matter how advanced, are based upon well-proven scientific principles. Remote viewing is based upon nothing more than anecdotal evidence (worthless) and statistical anomalies introduced by poor methodology.


The subject your talking about would have the most profound effects on science, and with that would come studies to prevent/counter.
At this point if it did really exist the argument to exploit such loopholes has validity.

It's for this very reason that the military would not be able to keep a lid on the existence of the phenomenon. It might well get the best recruits and provide the best training, but somewhere in the world another psychic would be tested and shown to be genuine. Cue Nobel Prize, rewriting the books, the whole shooting match.

For detailed criticism of the project, try this - http://csicop.org/si/9603/claims.html

If you'd rather see Penn and Teller rip remote viewers a new a-hole, watch the ESP episode of Bull****!.

[Group9]

It was not only Nostradamus who predicted 9/11, but their was others who did too.


I predicted it, too. But, I just used common sense, not remote viewing.