HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE (Just Breaking)

[seruriermarshal]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE (Just Breaking)


A leader of the armed wing of the radical Hamas movement has been killed in an Israeli air strike in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, it has been reported.

AFP news agency said the news came from Palestinian medical and security sources.

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Just hear this news , More follows...

[seruriermarshal]

More :


UPDATE FROM SKY NEWS:
A leader of the armed wing of the radical Hamas movement has been killed in an Israeli air strike in the southern Gaza town of Rafah, it has been reported.

AFP news agency said the news came from Palestinian medical and security sources.

The body of 37-year-old Khalid Abu Anza, who was killed in the early morning, was recovered by medics in the evening, AFP reported.

His death brings the number of Palestinians killed in Rafah on Thursday to eight.

It brings the overall toll since the September 2000 start of the Palestinian intifada to 4,075, including 3,086 Palestinians and 918 Israelis, according to an AFP count.

[Moledet]

Wohooooooo great!!!!! I hope he is dead.

[Argyll]

Wohooooooo great!!!!! I hope he is dead.

Lets keep this euphoria off this thread please,there's been too many complaints about this type of reaction lately

[Moledet]

Wohooooooo great!!!!! I hope he is dead.

Lets keep this euphoria off this thread please,there's been too many complaints about this type of reaction lately
When Bin laden will be killed you'll be happy too, why shouldn't we be happy?
He is a terrorists so it suits him right.

[Argyll]

Wohooooooo great!!!!! I hope he is dead.

Lets keep this euphoria off this thread please,there's been too many complaints about this type of reaction lately
When Bin laden will be killed you'll be happy too, why shouldn't we be happy?
He is a terrorists so it suits him right.

Because I've already told you the reasons.......too many complaints,especially from the Non Israeli's...........yeah sure I'll be happy when OBL gets taken out,but it don't mean I'll be posting comments similar to yours,now I've asked you nicely to keep it civil

[Sway]

In addition to the death of Abu Anzeh, a 3-year-old Palestinian boy died from shock after Israeli forces shelled his neighborhood....why wont u woohoo for this one too while ur added....

[blancitaloca]

I kinda agree in a way. Aren't we entitled to freedom of speech?

Who do we yell at when we see others dancing in the street when our people die?

I'm not laughing, nor do I rejoice when anyone is killed, but aren't our troops over there protecting this very right?

Once again, just chiming in, be gentle.

[Moledet]

In addition to the death of Abu Anzeh, a 3-year-old Palestinian boy died from shock after Israeli forces shelled his neighborhood....why wont u woohoo for this one too while ur added....
Why should I be happy when civilians get killed? I have no reasons to be happy because of that, I'm only happy when terrorists are being killed.

Argyll, ok, I won't do that again, it's your forum so I guess that I have to play by your rules.

[Argyll]

I kinda agree in a way. Aren't we entitled to freedom of speech?

Who do we yell at when we see others dancing in the street when our people die?

I'm not laughing, nor do I rejoice when anyone is killed, but aren't our troops over there protecting this very right?

Once again, just chiming in, be gentle.

Guys you can jump but naked about the place for all I care,I've told you the reasons,it's due to complaints.......I'll allow you to cheer like kids,but don't dare get on your high horse if people with Support for the Palestinians,and they are here in this site,start wooting and celebrating when an Israeli soldier get killed..........fairs fair?.........get my point?

[Sway]

reason i bring that up ..is one thing leads to another....its like a domino effect....ur cheering or rejoicing for one thing....that leading to another...its not a matter of rules...its a matter of ethics and morals

edit: Great point argyll...the shoe fits on both sides in a situation like that..

[Argyll]

In addition to the death of Abu Anzeh, a 3-year-old Palestinian boy died from shock after Israeli forces shelled his neighborhood....why wont u woohoo for this one too while ur added....
Why should I be happy when civilians get killed? I have no reasons to be happy because of that, I'm only happy when terrorists are being killed.

Argyll, ok, I won't do that again, it's your forum so I guess that I have to play by your rules.

Don't be cocky.................I'm tying to help here,I've seen too many of these threads like this get locked because of the rantings of individuals,all you neede to do was have a look at the topics about Rafah over the past few days and you'll knwo what I mean

[Moledet]

I kinda agree in a way. Aren't we entitled to freedom of speech?

Who do we yell at when we see others dancing in the street when our people die?

I'm not laughing, nor do I rejoice when anyone is killed, but aren't our troops over there protecting this very right?

Once again, just chiming in, be gentle.

Guys you can jump but naked about the place for all I care,I've told you the reasons,it's due to complaints.......I'll allow you to cheer like kids,but don't dare get on your high horse if people with Support for the Palestinians,and they are here in this site,start wooting and celebrating when an Israeli soldier get killed..........fairs fair?.........get my point?
A soldier is a soldier and terrorist is a terrorist, you can not compare between the two.
While that terrorists trie to kill as many civilians as possible the soldiers are protecting the civilians.



reason i bring that up ..is one thing leads to another....its like a domino effect....ur cheering or rejoicing for one thing....that leading to another...its not a matter of rules...its a matter of ethics and morals

Why should I have any respect towards someone who tries to kill as many civilians as possible? Especialy if i'm his target. Ofcourse I'll be happy that another scumbag is dead.

[Brozozo]

With all that put aside, I think it's for the better that Abu Anza is taken out of the equation, although he will most definitely be replaced...and the cycle contiues...

[Sway]

2 quick points.

1) i dont see how im being cocky...just stating my point of view how one thing leads to another..
2)I understand where ur coming from ...hence i edited my other post and added to it

[Sway]

although he will most definitely be replaced...and the cycle contiues...

very true.

[Argyll]

I kinda agree in a way. Aren't we entitled to freedom of speech?

Who do we yell at when we see others dancing in the street when our people die?

I'm not laughing, nor do I rejoice when anyone is killed, but aren't our troops over there protecting this very right?

Once again, just chiming in, be gentle.

Guys you can jump but naked about the place for all I care,I've told you the reasons,it's due to complaints.......I'll allow you to cheer like kids,but don't dare get on your high horse if people with Support for the Palestinians,and they are here in this site,start wooting and celebrating when an Israeli soldier get killed..........fairs fair?.........get my point?
A soldier is a soldier and terrorist is a terrorist, you can not compare between the two.
While that terrorists trie to kill as many civilians as possible the soldiers are protecting the civilians.



reason i bring that up ..is one thing leads to another....its like a domino effect....ur cheering or rejoicing for one thing....that leading to another...its not a matter of rules...its a matter of ethics and morals

Why should I have any respect towards someone who tries to kill as many civilians as possible? Especialy if i'm his target. Ofcourse I'll be happy that another scumbag is dead.

You are not listening here............those who support the Palestine cause don't see it that way,to you and I we do,but if this site is supposed to be impartial then the Palestinian supporters and those who support the Iraqi's,are allowed to rejoice in their actions........yes?

I've already explained it 3 times now..........there has been too many complaints and accusations of double standards,so to eliminate those we ask to keep the sentiments personal.

Sway I was not getting at you being cocky

[Obergefreiter]

Wow, that was fast, he only had the job for about three weeks. Talk about a high turn-over rate.

[Brozozo]

Moral of the story is: STFU with any fiercly pro/anti-Israeli comments in regards to the killings and everybody can be happy. Keep a more objectified view on things...

Regards,
Brozozo

[Argyll]

Moral of the story is: STFU with any fiercly pro/anti-Israeli comments in regards to the killings and everybody can be happy. Keep a more objectified view on things...

Regards,
Brozozo

Exactly...........well said :D

[seruriermarshal]

Sorry everybody , I think it's a news , If everybody anger because this reason , then I will edit it , and I don't think will send other news in forums
about war .

[scm77]

Sharowned.

[Caribou Kid]

Amazon.com "Butt Naked Dancing for Dummies" $8.95 + shipping and handling

Just got my copy. Available in Hebrew, Arabic, English. p-)

[Moledet]

Wow, that was fast, he only had the job for about three weeks. Talk about a high turn-over rate.
With 13 UAVs above Gaza at all time that's not as hard as it was before.

[Sway]

my apolgies then argyll..thought it was directed towards me...

p.s its hard to concentrate on the topics when brozozo posts...with them bouncing ******* on the left. lol

[SeanAshi]

Lekhaim!

[SeanAshi]

It would be better news if it were Khaled Meshaal

[Moledet]

Sharowned.
We need to stay objective:
http://www.geoffdavis.com/pics/Flamage/owned16.jpg

[Argyll]

Sorry everybody , I think it's a news , If everybody anger because this reason , then I will edit it , and I don't think will send other news in forums
about war .

It's news it's fine,it's the typed jubilation that's causing the problems,the Rafah posts were perfect examples of how this Region is a nightmare moderating on,accused of being anti semetic for asking Israeli's to cool it,and accused of double standards by Europeans for allowing them to be critical when the IDF kick ass,causing collateral damage. :(

[RavenW]

There is no any "cycle" of violence.

It's like saying that after cops shot some maniac who rapes women, another maniac takes his place.

I personally know someone who was tortured at the age 7 and raped. Now if cops shot evil person who commited that horrible crime because he point a gun at them, would you say that "another rapist will take his place... and the cycle continues".

This is just an absurd. If there is ALWAYS crime in community, it doesn't mean we should take out trash?

If the teeth would be dirty tommorow, then why bother cleaning them today? so the cycle of your struggle to keep your teeth clean continue... :) when new plague takes a place of old dirty pieces of food...


There is a war against Evil, and in this war an army of democratic state physically destroyed a member of this 'Evil'.

Yes, I agree we should not dance, because we better than them. We are not animals who rejoice at the suffering of other, even if they are our enemies. But naturally, it is a good news.

Unfotunately, there are still people here who don't understand that there is NO equal sign between our soldiers and their terrorists, and there NEVER will be such a sign.

No cycle of violence, just action of terrorists and reponce of army.

Like in drugdealers crimes, and cops responce. As simple as it is...

Thank you.


It is responsibility of every man and woman in the world to recognize the side of Good and Evil... in any conflict... any time.
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Fight bias! Make a difference! :D

[Argyll]

I tried to be as balance and objective as person can be...




Well bang goes you being objective in the Israel V Palestine thread,how can you possibly write an impartial thesis with these comments?

[usa320]

Good riddance. I wouldnt want to be the next guy replacing him...theyve been through leaders like the dutch go through doobies.

People keep saying the cycle of violence will continue, but since israel started targeting HAmas leaders, how many suicide bombings have their been?

Far less then when the leaders were allowed to live.

[RavenW]

those who support the Palestine cause don't see it that way,to you and I we do,but if this site is supposed to be impartial then the Palestinian supporters and those who support the Iraqi's,are allowed to rejoice in their actions........yes?

and this is unfortunate as fake neutrality of Switzerland during World War II.

I think it was Persian philosopher, who said that those who do not fight the evil and claim neutrality are simply supporting evil.

There is no double standard, there are just two sides Allies and Axis, you people, make your choice. But then don't say "we are sorry, we did not do anything to help you" after the end of World War.

And believe me, sooner or later, this World War be over on our terms.

[RavenW]

]Quote:
I tried to be as balance and objective as person can be...

Well bang goes you being objective in the Israel V Palestine thread,how can you possibly write an impartial thesis with these comments?


Exactly, my point. An objective person look at both side of the conflict. And recognize that one side is MORE evil than the other.

A balance person does not hide his eyes from the crimes of BOTH sides, but regoznises the fact that one side is LESS wrong than the other.

and then an objective person must make a choice.

And in one of my chapters I talk about the importance of making a choice... why it is important to take sides... why one should not stay neutral in the conflicts like this.

[Argyll]

Mate your own topic was getting flamed because of these very principles,from weedman..........the 2 sides of the coin statement.?

Every winner has it's losers mate........fact!

[RavenW]

19. (This might be interesting) So WHO IS RIGHT in the conflict? (Personal thoughts on the conflict/Personal life experience).

a. In my Humble Opinion (IMHO)/Who am I to judge? The look of bystander.
b. Why one side is more right than the other?…. or Well, why NOT one side could be more right than the other? J Why NOT? Question of possibility of one side be more right than the other (Historical examples).
c. Some Logic for Dummies. Careful assumptions. Questions of noise. Eliminating unnecessary data/use of data. Physics is the science of simplifying stuff in order to predict ones behavior/noise reduction.
d. Lets define what is a ‘good’ side and what is a ‘bad’ (‘less good’) side in ANY conflict. Why there are two sides and how are they different? Can both sides be ‘good’ or ‘bad’ at the same time? How do we grade the ‘goodness’ or ‘badness’ of the side?
e. How IMHO I view the conflict? Why do I think one side is more right than the other?
f. “Enemy of my friend is my enemy”.
g. Who supports whom? Difference between democratic society and totalitarian regimes. While in democratic society there is a whole spectrum of ideas and variety of opinions (so much that it is actually hard to recognize the ‘good’ side, people listen to different sources and get confused), in totalitarian society there is only one official view of solidarity and support. Guess which side is supported by totalitarian regimes. Israeli or Palestinian side? Think why it can be easier for a person under brutal dictatorship and totalitarian regime to recognize the side of goodness. “Friend of my enemy is my enemy as well…”
h. Moral character of people on both sides of the conflict/different sides of solidarity/blame game.
i. Careful! Simplification leads to mistakes. But simple logic is: “I don’t know X (side), but I know Y (side). If Y against X AND Y=good, then X=evil” (assuming of course that ‘good’ side and ‘evil’ side are always in geometrical opposition to each other) It’s primitive, but it’ll help you through the day of confusion.
j. What I know about “Y” side - Israel. Personal experience. Why I consider Israel “good” side?
k. Why I consider X (opposite) side evil?
l. Mathematical formulas and why they do NOT work in real life conflicts. Also question of inner instinct.
m. Question of oversimplification. Is my proof too simple?
n. Responsibility of making personal choice between the sides lies with the reader. Knowledge of fundamentals of the conflict is important to make a decision. Lets talk about why someone must make a decision and choose a side? Why can’t a person be neutral and abstain from getting involve in the conflict? Question of neutrality.
o. What is wrong with neutrality? Why is it dangerous?
p. Can the person be unbiased, balanced and objective in own views and still support only one of the sides?
q. Most frequently asked question: WHO IS RIGHT?
r. Not simple question leads to not simple answer. Question should have been rephrased.
s. More accurately: Who is MORE RIGHT than WRONG? Or who is LESS WRONG than other?
t. Why is it important to support side of ‘MORE RIGHT/LESS WRONG”? Why can’t people support both sides? Multilateral answer. On surface, the question of balance and fairness? Why is it wrong to place an equal sign in this messy equation of Middle East? Back to the question of morality, human values and the spirit of civilization. Deep question of human moral values and beliefs. “Not with bare hands!” (Answer to Hitler, Goebbls, Mussolini, Lenin, Stalin, Saddam, Arafat, bin Laden) Leitmotiv and tools of abusers of humanity. The question of tools they using and to what strings of soul they appeal. Appeal to the basic animal instincts, usage of old anti-Semitic rhetoric (examples). Opposite to appeal to the high moral values and humanity. Why is this appeal so unpopular in modern world? Why is appeal to humanity heard less often than appeal to pogrom and destruction (examples, genocides in Rwanda, Cambodia, Sudan and call to the physical destruction and removal of thousand of homes on innocent civilians like Jews many of whom are elderly survivors of the Holocaust)? Question of cynism and moral system of core human values in the world. The state of moral values? The presence or absence of change? Change and stability in multidimensional world of human values. Different planes show different state of human moral – from stable to dramatic change.
u. Why you, personally, should support the State of Israel and her People?

[Airborneranger4israel]

another one bites Dust!

bets on how long the next one will be alive before he is
SHAROWNED!

[Airborneranger4israel]

another one bites the Dust!

bets on how long the next one will be alive before he is
SHAROWNED!

[Denat]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

[RavenW]

Mate your own topic was getting flamed because of these very principles,from weedman..........the 2 sides of the coin statement.?

And I think weedman is very evil person.

Because anyone who thinks that it is OK to stop a car in the middle of dusty road. Then shoot woman-driver who is 8 month pregnant, then come up to back seat and shoot her 4 children (11, 8, 5, 2 age old). girls...
shoot little girls at a point blank range... throw away assault rifle and walk away saying "I did it because they are settlers" is EVIL. Period.

And weedman tried to justify this act of murder of innocent person by some twisted and perverted logic of terrorist who should be physically destroyed.

There is no double standard. It comes back to the question of DEFINITION and CONCEPT approach.


II. CONCEPT and APPROACH to problem
a. Choices of System of Coordinates
b. Different perspectives on the conflict arise from different definitions/systems of view at things and stylistic approaches.
c. Two fundamentally different systems of coordinates or systems to view things
(Fixed point of view on moral and cultural values [closed system], flexible point of view on moral and cultural values [open system])
Religious aspects of two systems (typical religions for systems Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Krishna), level of intensity of two systems (extremism and relax variations of both systems, examples), Tolerance to people who live by different systems
III. STYLES OF APPROACH
a. Idealistic/humanistic approach (way to view things/facts)
b. Cynical approach and materialistic approach
c. Real politik approach
IV. WAY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS
a. Use of system (what system I choose) and approach when I look at the heart of the problem


I view world through Closed System of Moral Coordinates:
there is ultimately Good side and ultimately Evil side
e.g. It is wrong to intentionally murder innocent civilian non-combatant.
It is okay to murder the terrorist who targets innocent non-combatants.

See. Closed System.

There is other people, who view world from Open System of moral coordinates.
There is no goodness and evil in this world. Everything is related from the point from which you are looking.

Example: truck driver-sadist runs over infant, but it is not bad if we look from HIS point of view. Thus, if we say that it is wrong, we "violating" his right to an opinion about running over kids.
We establish double standard because while we condemn the truck car murder of child, but at the same time do not rejoice to the death of the child along with driver, thus not recognizing of his right for rejoicing and not recognizing "other" side. In Open System, first we need to cry about baby, then we need to laugh with a truck driver.

I believe in Close System of Moral Coordinates. Because I saw evil and it is not pretty. (by my profession I work with children who were tortured and abused).

[Denat]

And I think weedman is very evil person.
He was, he was - there is no weedman anymore ;)

I've disabled Weedman's account.
I'm glad to see that this notorious leftist-liberal-communist troll, who was flameing around here on daily basis, has been finally banned.

[786mine]

Moral of the story is: STFU with any fiercly pro/anti-Israeli comments in regards to the killings and everybody can be happy. Keep a more objectified view on things...

Regards,
Brozozo

:P that was hell as funny and hit the nail on the head. once more, STFU!

[786mine]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

[Moledet]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.
No children or civilians were killed in the assassinations of Rantisi and Yassin and also now, only before them civilians got hurt because the IAF (IASF? I've heard that they changed the name) didn't have enough UAVs patrolling over Gaza.
BTW, Rantisi's and Yassin's assassination were postponed many times because of civilian attendance.

[RavenW]

think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

First of all, noone blames "the victim" when it comes to collateral damage. (The blame lies with those who started the war against us like Hitler or Arafat).

The people who are getting blamed, and will be put at Nurmberg trial for the use of civilian non-combatants as shields are HAMAS terrorist.

Second, when British and American people fought Evil they used 'carpet bombing' of such cities as Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagosaki. Should Israel 'carpet bomb' Gaza or Ramallah? Perhaps, but Israel believe in Humanity and that she must answer to the worst possible kind of terrorism with humane ideals. That means trucking down the scum terrorists and killing them when there is an opportunity to minimize civilian collateral damage.

When British and Americans bombed German and Japanese aggressors,
that was a real massive firepower (as you say) with which civilized nations responded to Hitler's aggression. Instead of nuclear strike or B-17, Israel responds only with 2-3 Hellfire missle directed at the organizer of mass murders.

Israel hunts her enemies one by one. Sometimes it takes weeks for Israel to strike, because all this time terrorist surronds himself with kids (intentionally). Finally, when there is no other way to eliminate him, it comes to question of protection of own children.

It is either 30 dead and 40 wounded in Jerusalem bombing or 1 terrorist and his body-vest from 5-8 Palestinian kids that always tag along like Michael Jacksons bunch. :( :roll:

Third, Israel would love if Palestinian Authority actually start to do some serious effort to prevent terrorism and thus eliminating any need for Israel to protect itself. If Arafat fought terror with 40 000 police force that he owned, there would be no need for Israeli operations.
Instead of pin point attack of Israel Air Force, PA police could simply go and arrest him, but unfortunately PA prefers to do nothing to stop terror. Or even worse actually provides cover and financial support for such terrorists.

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Fight bias! Make Difference! :D

[Secret Squirrel]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

Sounds like Iraq. But i guess the question is, is it better to chance innocents dying to take down a dangerous person or is it better to leave the dangerous person alone and let him kill the innocents?

[RavenW]

In a way, question should not be phrased "Why Israel uses such big firepower?", but "Why Israel uses such small firepower?"

Why not simply Israel would answer to Palestinians the way British answered to the bombings of civilians by Germany in 1942?

I wonder how France would respond to the people that actively participate in terror, call for the physical destruction of France from the face of the earth and celebrate with candies and dances when French children are ripped apart in buses on the way to school by bombs set up specifically to target civilian non-combatants.

[Secret Squirrel]

In a way, question should not be phrased "Why Israel uses such big firepower?", but "Why Israel uses such small firepower?"

Why not simply Israel would answer to Palestinians the way British answered to the bombings of civilians by Germans in 1942?

I wonder how France would respond to the people that actively participate in terror, call for the physical destruction of France from the face of the earth and celebrate with candies and dances when children are ripped apart by bombs set up by members of their community.

comparing WWII to present day times is pointless. During WWII war was waged against countries and the people who lived in said countries. Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then.

[Kilgor]

I wonder how France would respond to the people that actively participate in terror, call for the physical destruction of France from the face of the earth and celebrate with candies and dances when French children are ripped apart in buses on the way to school by bombs set up specifically to target civilian non-combatants.

They would probably collaborate with them :P

[RavenW]

Israel is a country. And war is waged against it. I would say even more, this is a genocidal war.

Any country have a right to self-defense, especially if someone tries to physically destroy it and all its inhabitants.

[RavenW]

They would probably collaborate with them

:lol: I got the joke, but seriously how did collaboration with murderers help Jews in WWII.

you know, there is one lesson Israel learned from Holocaust, there is no point in collaborating with someone who wishes your death.

[RavenW]

comparing WWII to present day times is pointless. During WWII war was waged against countries and the people who lived in said countries. Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then.

let me break it step by step, and then I am off to the gym. :)


comparing WWII to present day times is pointless.

First of all, it is not pointless. In fact, it is even usefull. History tends to repeat itself. Maybe in slightly different form, but it still repeats itself. As in crime (any detective would tell you) if you want to find a motive in NEW crime, look for the previous incidents, and you would surely find some similarities.
Crimes always repeat themselves, as well as human acts because it comes from human nature that rarely changes.

People repeat stuff.
To say that world today does not repeat the mistakes of the past is simply wrong. We are not very far from WWII, but we already began to forget some lessons from it.

Unfotunately, human mentality and nature did not change much from those times. There was no any kind of evolution since WWII in human nature and since I am Historian, I tell you from point of History we are 0 meters from the time when people smashed children's head open against corners of building in WWII.

If we know anything certain from history of pre-historic world is that our ancestors f...cked a lot.
I kind say this to my students, because it would be inproperly to say such thing during lecture, but I think it is a nice way to put it.


During WWII war was waged against countries and the people who lived in said countries.

Not particularly true. The war was waged between different groups of people, not countries. For examples, Jews did not even have a country of their own, but they were involved in that war. Many different regions entered the war not as countries, but simply as groups of people.

Did Bosnia or Moldova participated in WWII as a country? No. But people of those regions did.

Farthermore, Palestinian Arabs actively participated in the genocide of Jews. Some of them were even send to Nazi Germany to learn how "properly" kill Jews. e.g. Palestinian Mufti of Jerusalem send his own nephew to Auswits to see how Germans solve the problem with Jews. This nephew volunteered to help SS in extermination of Yugoslavian Jewish children.



Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then [WWII].


You really think so? :roll: You think that people become more smarter?

No comment.

[Secret Squirrel]

comparing WWII to present day times is pointless. During WWII war was waged against countries and the people who lived in said countries. Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then.

let me break it step by step, and then I am off to the gym. :)


comparing WWII to present day times is pointless.

First of all, it is not pointless. In fact, it is even usefull. History tend to repeat itself. Maybe in slightly different forms, but it still repeat itself. As in crime, any detective would tell you that if you want to find a motive in NEW crime, look for the previous incidents, and you would surely find some similarities. Crimes always repeat themselves, as well as human acts because it comes from human nature that rarely changes.

To say that world today does not repeat the mistakes of the past is simply wrong. We are not very far from WWII, but we already start to forget some lessons of it. Unfotunately, human mentality and nature did not change a bit from that times. There was no any evolution and since I am Historian, I tell you from point of History we are 0 meter from the time when people smashed children's head open against corners of building in WWII.


During WWII war was waged against countries and the people who lived in said countries.

not particularly true. The War was waged between different groups of people, not countries. For examples, Jews did not even have a country of their own, but they were involved in that war. Many different regions entered the war not as a country, but simply as groups of people.

Did Bosnia or Moldova participated in WWII as a country? No. But people of that region did.

Farthermore, Palestinian Arabs actively participated in the genocide of Jews. Some of them were even send to Nazi Germany to learn how properly "kill" Jews. e.g. Palestinian Mufti of Jerusalem send his own nephew to Auswits to see how Germans solve the problem with Jews. This nephew volunteered to help SS in extermination of Yugoslavian Jewish children.



Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then [WWII].


You really think so? :roll: You think that people become more smarter?

No comment.

from which schools and under whom did you receive your degrees? I'm kind of curious.

[[AFSOC]]

You people make me sick.....

HAMAS will never end....as long as ISRAEL exist it will never be destroyed. If ISRAEL was never taken by the Palestinians all this **** wouldnt have never happened.

Israel is just a bully...they just pick on defenceless and innocent people.

OBVIOUSLY PALESTINE has terrorist because of Israel, they cant fight against a power like that with a military power, so of coarse they will use unconventional tactics. Then you people will label them as terrorist......how would you like it if someone just took your land from you and then started bullying you around? dumbasses

If the UN and United States, Canada, Great Britain etc didnt have interest with ISRAEL then Israel would be taken out BY now.

Ive said it before on this forum....what Ghandi said...."Eye for an Eye makes the world blind" and Israel needs to realize they aint dEFENDing themselves no more.

an if someone gots sumthing about that they can kiss my christian ass...

[UkrainianAmerican]

]You people make me sick.....

HAMAS will never end....as long as ISRAEL exist it will never be destroyed. If ISRAEL was never taken by the Palestinians all this **** wouldnt have never happened.

Israel is just a bully...they just pick on defenceless and innocent people.

OBVIOUSLY PALESTINE has terrorist because of Israel, they cant fight against a power like that with a military power, so of coarse they will use unconventional tactics. Then you people will label them as terrorist......how would you like it if someone just took your land from you and then started bullying you around? dumbasses

If the UN and United States, Canada, Great Britain etc didnt have interest with ISRAEL then Israel would be taken out BY now.

Ive said it before on this forum....what Ghandi said...."Eye for an Eye makes the world blind" and Israel needs to realize they aint dEFENDing themselves no more.

an if someone gots sumthing about that they can kiss my christian ass...
rofl rofl rofl
Wanna get together and tlak abou it? :lol:

[RavenW]

from which schools and under whom did you receive your degrees? I'm kind of curious.

sure. I still have 9 classes before graduation, but I work already in high school (part time job, History TA and volunteer for AVID program as well as some tutoring). I study History of Russian Revolution at Hoovers Institute, Stanford University. (You can usually see me in Russian archives department of Hoover Tower0.

I studied in Univercity of California, Berkeley. Go Bears!
and next year I gonna take some classes in UC Santa Cruz.

This is (I hope) is enough for you in terms of my formal education.

If you need a letter of recommedation from Dean of Historical Department Dr. Pierce (who is a dear friend of mine as well as mentor) I might actually write him an e-mail and ask for one, specifically for you.

Or maybe Dr. Tinsley (Medieval France). She was a professor in UC Berkeley. She also promised me some letter of recommendation if I gonna need one.

anyway, next couple of years I plan to begin work for my Doctorate (Study of Russian Revolution) and I read books about Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and World War II for my own amusement.

[UkrainianAmerican]

RavenW, you are the biggest Zionist who passed through Berkeley, it seems. :lol:

[RavenW]

RavenW, you are the biggest Zionist who passed through Berkeley, it seems.

The jokes on you buddy. I didn't. :)
I got so sick of my major (EECS - Electrical Engineering and Computer Science), and amount of Palestinian flags on Telegraph street, I just grab my books and left. I'm gonna go to different school now.

But now, I just work in High School. You know, give lectures about Russian Revolution, help American boys and girls understand Israeli-Palestinian conflict better, and work with children who... lets put it this way, they suffered a lot in their lifetime and that is all what I want to say about my students.

[UkrainianAmerican]

RavenW, you are the biggest Zionist who passed through Berkeley, it seems.

The jokes on you buddy. I didn't. :)
I got so sick of my major (EECS - Electrical Engineering and Computer Science), and amount of Palestinian flags on Telegraph street, I just grab my books and left. I'm gonna go to different school now.

But now, I just work in High School. You know, give lectures about Russian Revolution, help American boys and girls understand Israeli-Palestinian conflict better, and work with children who... lets put it this way, they suffered a lot in their lifetime and that is all what I want to say about my students.
Ahhh, now I see, because I too heard a lot of stories about how "objective" that place is when it comes to mideast conflict, war on terror, Bush, .....Capitalism.... :D
Btw what city do you work in?

[RavenW]

20. ISLAMO-FASCISM as the plague/disease/virus/cancer of 21st century.

a. So what is Islamo-fascism?
b. Why Islamo? Why fascism? Evil’s stake on religion, Previous evil’s stake was on race/ethnicity/nationality.
c. Origins and roots. (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, racist Iran, Nationalism and Religious Extremism of Middle East)
d. Early years and encouragement of spread and growth by the World International community.
e. The ‘disease’ moves from incubation period to the open (extreme) form/1980s.
f. Attacks on Jews as ‘lacmuse‘/orange paper for test of chemical presence of extremism in society. (Jews as vulnerable and at the same time powerful minority).
g. The case for minority. Why Jews? Why now? Why always?
h. Israel as a Jew among the nations. Can attack on Israel be viewed as an attack on the fundamental principles of our civilization? In order to understand Islamo-fascists look for the goals. What is the goal of Islamo-fascism?
i. Today’s jihadists as Medieval Crusaders? West and East – flip-flopping of civilizations. Interesting similarities. Question of what is more closely resembles what? (Medieval Islam, modern Western Civilization, Medieval Europe, Modern Middle East) Question of why oh why do we always try to make a comparison with something ‘totally’ different? Answer to cynics who enjoy this type of questions. As in crime, history tends to repeat itself. Something like that or of similar nature was already probably happened before. It is easier to recognize a new disease by the old traits even if disease went through evolution. People are always the same and human psychology as well as human nature rarely changes. Question of human evolution. Question of time of brutal mega-murders and closeness of that brutal period to today’s world. Yesterday’s brutality is 0 meters from us, today.
j. Why did we win World War II? Why we might loose World War III? Question of allies. The need for leaders of World War II and their absence. Remarkable similarities of French position in both conflicts. Why “War against Islamo-fascism” not “War against Terror”? Question of what is terrorism- terrorism as a tool of Islamo-fascism. Terrorism as a loyal servant of evil Islamo-fascist ideology. Terrorism as a tactic, makes ‘War on Terror’ useless because the war against tactic cannot be won until there would be clear definition of who is the enemy. Terror is mere tactic. The war against terror (tactics) cannot be won before the war against Islamo-Fascism (Strategy and Ideology). Different fronts on the war on terror in reality are different fronts in the War against Islamo-fascism. (Examples, Chechnya, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kashmir, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Algeria, Tunis, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Israel… they are all fronts of that war).
k. Can we even possibly loose the War against Islamo-fascism? Yes. So what would happen after defeat?
l. Another question – can we ultimately defeat the evil of this world? Can we ultimately win the War? Is there such thing as total victory? Reappearance and comeback/rebirth of dark phoenix of evil and why this war is “so” eternal? War for thousand years? Dark Ages and genocides as the victories of ‘Evil’ side and V-Day (1945) and the crush and fall of Nazism and Communism as the victories for ‘good’ side. Point of view, an opinion if you will – constant struggle between good and evil in the world.
m. Many faces of Evilness and the tools it’s using. Mimicry and the camouflage of the Evil since the end of World War II. Evolution of the Evil. Its use of new tactics in order to survive in modern world. Old tricks and new style. Question of society anti-bodies against the virus of Evil. Use of terminology and again the importance of understanding why this ‘War of Words’ is so important and why does the ‘Evil’ side so often twist it?
n. So what is Evil? Is it a group? NO. Is it a race? NO. Is it a religion or religious group? NO. Is it a nationality? NO. It is invisible, deadly and uncatchable as lead fumes. Is it possible to detect? Yes, if we look very carefully. Traits of Evil: intolerance, xenophobia, extremism, fundamentalism. Important difference between fundamentalism and believe in fundamental human and moral values. The importance of tolerance and allocation of space for mistakes and imperfection make the belief in fundamental moral values NOT harmful, comparing to zealous rage of intolerance of fundamentalists. Fundamentalism and fundamental values – what’s the difference? Difference between fundamentalism and fundamental human values. (Clarify position) Draw a border between conservative tradition and right-wing intolerance and extremism.
o. Why to have all this talk about ultimate ‘Evil’ and the question of its existence. Back to the question of the system of moral coordinates. Look at system of human values and its spectrum. Extremes (opposite ends) of the spectrum. Question of ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Goodness and ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Evilness. Where people and humanity lies? Somewhere in between? The question of grayscale as opposite to the black/white scale. Imperfection of this world and its inhabitants. The ability of grayscale to allow different variations or mixtures of good and evil in real world. Absence of perfection and the presence of imperfection on the scale. Why do I think American and Israeli civilizations are the same and why do I think that they are better than Palestinian/Arab ones. Question of moral high ground and the importance of understanding the difference between moral high ground ‘superiority’. Dangerous term of ‘superiority’. Understanding the term and what it is implies as a generalization about the society as group of people united by common national/cultural/traditional/political/religious identity. Question of “moral” superiority: in character of an individual, in group of people, in society and country as a whole. Stressing out the importance of existing imperfection as in Israel/America system as in Palestinian/Arab society. Importance of recognizing that both sides have tremendous and terrible imperfections and many wrongs and wrongdoings, but one side is ultimately MORE wrong than the other. NOT on biological level, NOT on physical or genetic level, but on the behavioral level acquired by living, been nurtured, grown up and formed in the society of criminals and society of sane (“normal”) individuals. Example, suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against innocent civilians (non-combatants). Example, opinion on the terrorist activity in the time of crisis for Jewish and Palestinian society. How did Jews viewed terrorism in the times of personal despair? How does Palestinian society view it now? Comparison of false excuses and justification about the lifestyle to the lifestyle of people who live in other Arab countries (worse conditions than Palestinians), in African and Latin American countries as well as in Europe. Also compare the desperation of Palestinian Arab population to the desperation of the Jews in the ghettos of WWII and their responses to those living conditions. How many Jews attacked innocent German children with knives yelling ‘G-d is Great!’ during the time of personal crisis for the Jewish nation and the years of active extermination of Jews by German, Hungarian and Polish murderers. Recognizing the falsehood of justification for the terrorist/bandit/criminal society that uses poverty and bad livelihood as an excuse for its crimes. Recognizing that the real reason behind terrorism is active and vicious spiral of xenophobia in Palestinian society – its worst form of hatred rather than fear toward the people of other religion and nationality – Jews.
p. Fundamental question of the choice of the system of morals by which person/groups of people live demand different views of the same events/conflict. Depending on the system through which we wish to look at the conflict, we might see different picture.
q. Recognizing that this is a war of Ideologies as well as the war of civilizations, where Jews and Palestinian Arabs are unfortunately on the different end of opposite spears (larger than they are themselves). The Land of Israel or Palestine is just a place where those civilizations collide. Because the ideologies so different from each other they cannot possible co-exist in the same area of influence.
r. Examples of previous stand off between different ideologies/moral systems: communism vs. capitalism (Cold War), totalitarian vs. democracy, Nazism vs. Humanism (World War II).
s. Collide of civilization and the question of previous history of co-existence. Periods of polarization/conflict and confrontation.
t. Recognizing the difference of American-Israeli and Islamo-fascists ideologies. The difference is in its values.
u. Question of destiny for our today’s modern Western civilization. Does civilization goes in spiral cycles upward toward enlightment or does it moves in the wave form with its own ups and downs. Question of Dark Ages. Possibility of new Dark Ages after this period of englightment. Duality of History’s nature. As in quantum mechanics, light can have both wave and impulse (particles) form, so perhaps History might have. Sinusoidal waves and spiral twists upward.

[RavenW]

RussianAmerican
I'd like to keep some things privately. I think you can understand.

Well, I'm off to the gym. see you, guys! Shalom!

[UkrainianAmerican]

RussianAmerican
I'd like to keep some things privately. I think you can understand.

Well, I'm off to the gym. see you, guys! Shalom!
No prblem!
Peace :D

[Secret Squirrel]

from which schools and under whom did you receive your degrees? I'm kind of curious.

sure. I still have 9 classes before graduation, but I work already in high school (part time job, History TA and volunteer for AVID program as well as some tutoring). I study History of Russian Revolution at Hoovers Institute, Stanford University. (You can usually see me in Russian archives department of Hoover Tower0.

I studied in Univercity of California, Berkeley. Go Bears!
and next year I gonna take some classes in UC Santa Cruz.

This is (I hope) is enough for you in terms of my formal education.

If you need a letter of recommedation from Dean of Historical Department Dr. Pierce (who is a dear friend of mine as well as mentor) I might actually write him an e-mail and ask for one, specifically for you.

Or maybe Dr. Tinsley (Medieval France). She was a professor in UC Berkeley. She also promised me some letter of recommendation if I gonna need one.

anyway, next couple of years I plan to begin work for my Doctorate (Study of Russian Revolution) and I read books about Israeli-Palestinian Conflict and World War II for my own amusement.

no I wasnt trying to goad you into an insult or anything i was just curious. So have a b.a in history? and you're still working on your M.A? ANd i was wondering which profs you got your degrees from...meaning as you know, who were your supervisors? Or did you mean when you said you had 9 courses left you meant you're working on your B.A? Again, just curious.

[[AFSOC]]

20. ISLAMO-FASCISM as the plague/disease/virus/cancer of 21st century.

a. So what is Islamo-fascism?
b. Why Islamo? Why fascism? Evil’s stake on religion, Previous evil’s stake was on race/ethnicity/nationality.
c. Origins and roots. (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, racist Iran, Nationalism and Religious Extremism of Middle East)
d. Early years and encouragement of spread and growth by the World International community.
e. The ‘disease’ moves from incubation period to the open (extreme) form/1980s.
f. Attacks on Jews as ‘lacmuse‘/orange paper for test of chemical presence of extremism in society. (Jews as vulnerable and at the same time powerful minority).
g. The case for minority. Why Jews? Why now? Why always?
h. Israel as a Jew among the nations. Can attack on Israel be viewed as an attack on the fundamental principles of our civilization? In order to understand Islamo-fascists look for the goals. What is the goal of Islamo-fascism?
i. Today’s jihadists as Medieval Crusaders? West and East – flip-flopping of civilizations. Interesting similarities. Question of what is more closely resembles what? (Medieval Islam, modern Western Civilization, Medieval Europe, Modern Middle East) Question of why oh why do we always try to make a comparison with something ‘totally’ different? Answer to cynics who enjoy this type of questions. As in crime, history tends to repeat itself. Something like that or of similar nature was already probably happened before. It is easier to recognize a new disease by the old traits even if disease went through evolution. People are always the same and human psychology as well as human nature rarely changes. Question of human evolution. Question of time of brutal mega-murders and closeness of that brutal period to today’s world. Yesterday’s brutality is 0 meters from us, today.
j. Why did we win World War II? Why we might loose World War III? Question of allies. The need for leaders of World War II and their absence. Remarkable similarities of French position in both conflicts. Why “War against Islamo-fascism” not “War against Terror”? Question of what is terrorism- terrorism as a tool of Islamo-fascism. Terrorism as a loyal servant of evil Islamo-fascist ideology. Terrorism as a tactic, makes ‘War on Terror’ useless because the war against tactic cannot be won until there would be clear definition of who is the enemy. Terror is mere tactic. The war against terror (tactics) cannot be won before the war against Islamo-Fascism (Strategy and Ideology). Different fronts on the war on terror in reality are different fronts in the War against Islamo-fascism. (Examples, Chechnya, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kashmir, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Algeria, Tunis, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Israel… they are all fronts of that war).
k. Can we even possibly loose the War against Islamo-fascism? Yes. So what would happen after defeat?
l. Another question – can we ultimately defeat the evil of this world? Can we ultimately win the War? Is there such thing as total victory? Reappearance and comeback/rebirth of dark phoenix of evil and why this war is “so” eternal? War for thousand years? Dark Ages and genocides as the victories of ‘Evil’ side and V-Day (1945) and the crush and fall of Nazism and Communism as the victories for ‘good’ side. Point of view, an opinion if you will – constant struggle between good and evil in the world.
m. Many faces of Evilness and the tools it’s using. Mimicry and the camouflage of the Evil since the end of World War II. Evolution of the Evil. Its use of new tactics in order to survive in modern world. Old tricks and new style. Question of society anti-bodies against the virus of Evil. Use of terminology and again the importance of understanding why this ‘War of Words’ is so important and why does the ‘Evil’ side so often twist it?
n. So what is Evil? Is it a group? NO. Is it a race? NO. Is it a religion or religious group? NO. Is it a nationality? NO. It is invisible, deadly and uncatchable as lead fumes. Is it possible to detect? Yes, if we look very carefully. Traits of Evil: intolerance, xenophobia, extremism, fundamentalism. Important difference between fundamentalism and believe in fundamental human and moral values. The importance of tolerance and allocation of space for mistakes and imperfection make the belief in fundamental moral values NOT harmful, comparing to zealous rage of intolerance of fundamentalists. Fundamentalism and fundamental values – what’s the difference? Difference between fundamentalism and fundamental human values. (Clarify position) Draw a border between conservative tradition and right-wing intolerance and extremism.
o. Why to have all this talk about ultimate ‘Evil’ and the question of its existence. Back to the question of the system of moral coordinates. Look at system of human values and its spectrum. Extremes (opposite ends) of the spectrum. Question of ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Goodness and ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Evilness. Where people and humanity lies? Somewhere in between? The question of grayscale as opposite to the black/white scale. Imperfection of this world and its inhabitants. The ability of grayscale to allow different variations or mixtures of good and evil in real world. Absence of perfection and the presence of imperfection on the scale. Why do I think American and Israeli civilizations are the same and why do I think that they are better than Palestinian/Arab ones. Question of moral high ground and the importance of understanding the difference between moral high ground ‘superiority’. Dangerous term of ‘superiority’. Understanding the term and what it is implies as a generalization about the society as group of people united by common national/cultural/traditional/political/religious identity. Question of “moral” superiority: in character of an individual, in group of people, in society and country as a whole. Stressing out the importance of existing imperfection as in Israel/America system as in Palestinian/Arab society. Importance of recognizing that both sides have tremendous and terrible imperfections and many wrongs and wrongdoings, but one side is ultimately MORE wrong than the other. NOT on biological level, NOT on physical or genetic level, but on the behavioral level acquired by living, been nurtured, grown up and formed in the society of criminals and society of sane (“normal”) individuals. Example, suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against innocent civilians (non-combatants). Example, opinion on the terrorist activity in the time of crisis for Jewish and Palestinian society. How did Jews viewed terrorism in the times of personal despair? How does Palestinian society view it now? Comparison of false excuses and justification about the lifestyle to the lifestyle of people who live in other Arab countries (worse conditions than Palestinians), in African and Latin American countries as well as in Europe. Also compare the desperation of Palestinian Arab population to the desperation of the Jews in the ghettos of WWII and their responses to those living conditions. How many Jews attacked innocent German children with knives yelling ‘G-d is Great!’ during the time of personal crisis for the Jewish nation and the years of active extermination of Jews by German, Hungarian and Polish murderers. Recognizing the falsehood of justification for the terrorist/bandit/criminal society that uses poverty and bad livelihood as an excuse for its crimes. Recognizing that the real reason behind terrorism is active and vicious spiral of xenophobia in Palestinian society – its worst form of hatred rather than fear toward the people of other religion and nationality – Jews.
p. Fundamental question of the choice of the system of morals by which person/groups of people live demand different views of the same events/conflict. Depending on the system through which we wish to look at the conflict, we might see different picture.
q. Recognizing that this is a war of Ideologies as well as the war of civilizations, where Jews and Palestinian Arabs are unfortunately on the different end of opposite spears (larger than they are themselves). The Land of Israel or Palestine is just a place where those civilizations collide. Because the ideologies so different from each other they cannot possible co-exist in the same area of influence.
r. Examples of previous stand off between different ideologies/moral systems: communism vs. capitalism (Cold War), totalitarian vs. democracy, Nazism vs. Humanism (World War II).
s. Collide of civilization and the question of previous history of co-existence. Periods of polarization/conflict and confrontation.
t. Recognizing the difference of American-Israeli and Islamo-fascists ideologies. The difference is in its values.
u. Question of destiny for our today’s modern Western civilization. Does civilization goes in spiral cycles upward toward enlightment or does it moves in the wave form with its own ups and downs. Question of Dark Ages. Possibility of new Dark Ages after this period of englightment. Duality of History’s nature. As in quantum mechanics, light can have both wave and impulse (particles) form, so perhaps History might have. Sinusoidal waves and spiral twists upward.


You know when people make these long ass QUOTES no one wants to read them.....urrggh

unless your a nerd

[soma]

Just close the thread if you don't want any ****ing flames o_O

[talib_killa34]

]


20. ISLAMO-FASCISM as the plague/disease/virus/cancer of 21st century.

a. So what is Islamo-fascism?
b. Why Islamo? Why fascism? Evil’s stake on religion, Previous evil’s stake was on race/ethnicity/nationality.
c. Origins and roots. (Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, racist Iran, Nationalism and Religious Extremism of Middle East)
d. Early years and encouragement of spread and growth by the World International community.
e. The ‘disease’ moves from incubation period to the open (extreme) form/1980s.
f. Attacks on Jews as ‘lacmuse‘/orange paper for test of chemical presence of extremism in society. (Jews as vulnerable and at the same time powerful minority).
g. The case for minority. Why Jews? Why now? Why always?
h. Israel as a Jew among the nations. Can attack on Israel be viewed as an attack on the fundamental principles of our civilization? In order to understand Islamo-fascists look for the goals. What is the goal of Islamo-fascism?
i. Today’s jihadists as Medieval Crusaders? West and East – flip-flopping of civilizations. Interesting similarities. Question of what is more closely resembles what? (Medieval Islam, modern Western Civilization, Medieval Europe, Modern Middle East) Question of why oh why do we always try to make a comparison with something ‘totally’ different? Answer to cynics who enjoy this type of questions. As in crime, history tends to repeat itself. Something like that or of similar nature was already probably happened before. It is easier to recognize a new disease by the old traits even if disease went through evolution. People are always the same and human psychology as well as human nature rarely changes. Question of human evolution. Question of time of brutal mega-murders and closeness of that brutal period to today’s world. Yesterday’s brutality is 0 meters from us, today.
j. Why did we win World War II? Why we might loose World War III? Question of allies. The need for leaders of World War II and their absence. Remarkable similarities of French position in both conflicts. Why “War against Islamo-fascism” not “War against Terror”? Question of what is terrorism- terrorism as a tool of Islamo-fascism. Terrorism as a loyal servant of evil Islamo-fascist ideology. Terrorism as a tactic, makes ‘War on Terror’ useless because the war against tactic cannot be won until there would be clear definition of who is the enemy. Terror is mere tactic. The war against terror (tactics) cannot be won before the war against Islamo-Fascism (Strategy and Ideology). Different fronts on the war on terror in reality are different fronts in the War against Islamo-fascism. (Examples, Chechnya, Kenya, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kashmir, Pakistan, Turkey, Libya, Algeria, Tunis, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Israel… they are all fronts of that war).
k. Can we even possibly loose the War against Islamo-fascism? Yes. So what would happen after defeat?
l. Another question – can we ultimately defeat the evil of this world? Can we ultimately win the War? Is there such thing as total victory? Reappearance and comeback/rebirth of dark phoenix of evil and why this war is “so” eternal? War for thousand years? Dark Ages and genocides as the victories of ‘Evil’ side and V-Day (1945) and the crush and fall of Nazism and Communism as the victories for ‘good’ side. Point of view, an opinion if you will – constant struggle between good and evil in the world.
m. Many faces of Evilness and the tools it’s using. Mimicry and the camouflage of the Evil since the end of World War II. Evolution of the Evil. Its use of new tactics in order to survive in modern world. Old tricks and new style. Question of society anti-bodies against the virus of Evil. Use of terminology and again the importance of understanding why this ‘War of Words’ is so important and why does the ‘Evil’ side so often twist it?
n. So what is Evil? Is it a group? NO. Is it a race? NO. Is it a religion or religious group? NO. Is it a nationality? NO. It is invisible, deadly and uncatchable as lead fumes. Is it possible to detect? Yes, if we look very carefully. Traits of Evil: intolerance, xenophobia, extremism, fundamentalism. Important difference between fundamentalism and believe in fundamental human and moral values. The importance of tolerance and allocation of space for mistakes and imperfection make the belief in fundamental moral values NOT harmful, comparing to zealous rage of intolerance of fundamentalists. Fundamentalism and fundamental values – what’s the difference? Difference between fundamentalism and fundamental human values. (Clarify position) Draw a border between conservative tradition and right-wing intolerance and extremism.
o. Why to have all this talk about ultimate ‘Evil’ and the question of its existence. Back to the question of the system of moral coordinates. Look at system of human values and its spectrum. Extremes (opposite ends) of the spectrum. Question of ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Goodness and ‘Pure’ (unearthly/unnatural) Evilness. Where people and humanity lies? Somewhere in between? The question of grayscale as opposite to the black/white scale. Imperfection of this world and its inhabitants. The ability of grayscale to allow different variations or mixtures of good and evil in real world. Absence of perfection and the presence of imperfection on the scale. Why do I think American and Israeli civilizations are the same and why do I think that they are better than Palestinian/Arab ones. Question of moral high ground and the importance of understanding the difference between moral high ground ‘superiority’. Dangerous term of ‘superiority’. Understanding the term and what it is implies as a generalization about the society as group of people united by common national/cultural/traditional/political/religious identity. Question of “moral” superiority: in character of an individual, in group of people, in society and country as a whole. Stressing out the importance of existing imperfection as in Israel/America system as in Palestinian/Arab society. Importance of recognizing that both sides have tremendous and terrible imperfections and many wrongs and wrongdoings, but one side is ultimately MORE wrong than the other. NOT on biological level, NOT on physical or genetic level, but on the behavioral level acquired by living, been nurtured, grown up and formed in the society of criminals and society of sane (“normal”) individuals. Example, suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against innocent civilians (non-combatants). Example, opinion on the terrorist activity in the time of crisis for Jewish and Palestinian society. How did Jews viewed terrorism in the times of personal despair? How does Palestinian society view it now? Comparison of false excuses and justification about the lifestyle to the lifestyle of people who live in other Arab countries (worse conditions than Palestinians), in African and Latin American countries as well as in Europe. Also compare the desperation of Palestinian Arab population to the desperation of the Jews in the ghettos of WWII and their responses to those living conditions. How many Jews attacked innocent German children with knives yelling ‘G-d is Great!’ during the time of personal crisis for the Jewish nation and the years of active extermination of Jews by German, Hungarian and Polish murderers. Recognizing the falsehood of justification for the terrorist/bandit/criminal society that uses poverty and bad livelihood as an excuse for its crimes. Recognizing that the real reason behind terrorism is active and vicious spiral of xenophobia in Palestinian society – its worst form of hatred rather than fear toward the people of other religion and nationality – Jews.
p. Fundamental question of the choice of the system of morals by which person/groups of people live demand different views of the same events/conflict. Depending on the system through which we wish to look at the conflict, we might see different picture.
q. Recognizing that this is a war of Ideologies as well as the war of civilizations, where Jews and Palestinian Arabs are unfortunately on the different end of opposite spears (larger than they are themselves). The Land of Israel or Palestine is just a place where those civilizations collide. Because the ideologies so different from each other they cannot possible co-exist in the same area of influence.
r. Examples of previous stand off between different ideologies/moral systems: communism vs. capitalism (Cold War), totalitarian vs. democracy, Nazism vs. Humanism (World War II).
s. Collide of civilization and the question of previous history of co-existence. Periods of polarization/conflict and confrontation.
t. Recognizing the difference of American-Israeli and Islamo-fascists ideologies. The difference is in its values.
u. Question of destiny for our today’s modern Western civilization. Does civilization goes in spiral cycles upward toward enlightment or does it moves in the wave form with its own ups and downs. Question of Dark Ages. Possibility of new Dark Ages after this period of englightment. Duality of History’s nature. As in quantum mechanics, light can have both wave and impulse (particles) form, so perhaps History might have. Sinusoidal waves and spiral twists upward.


You know when people make these long ass QUOTES no one wants to read them.....urrggh

unless your a nerd

Yeah dude I skimmed that post. Too long.

[SeanAshi]

http://forumspam.articblue.nl/user_related/owned/images/0694.jpg
Who's next?

[Caribou Kid]

Thankfully, at least i hope so, we've gotten a lot smarter since then [WWII].



You really think so? You think that people become more smarter?

No comment.

Has the world changed that much since WWII?

Gee, I don't know.. . .

Man on the Moon, International Space Station, and space tourists...

Vitual collapse of evil Communist Empire (McDonaldsin Moscow AND Beijing!)

The frikken Internet...

Apartheid abolished...

People power revolutions over throw Asian Dictators in Phillippines and Indonesia...

North AND South Korean athletes marching hand-in-hand into Olympic stadium together....

African Americans allowed to use bus seats, high schools and drinking fountains like every other U.S. citizen...

No, we have hardly changed at all....... :cantbeli:

Seems like there's more than one radical academic floating around in that region of the world... p-)

[RavenW]

No, we have hardly changed at all.......

Yep. I think you started to sound more sane at the end of your post.
Just show me where can I sign under that statement.


P.S. especially I liked the part about evil Communist Empire falling from a person that did not live there at all... and about "apartheid being abolished", who did not live in Johanesburg or knew someone who did.

With all those so-called "acomplishments" (gee, I just feel again as Soviet schoolboy listening about our brave comrades sending to the moon African Americans who can finally ride the buses there in McDonalds), I think you missed the big picture that there is. And what I actually ment when I said: "we did not changed at all".

This is just makes me feel sad. You know, I think the right thing would be to return to my work and unfinished books, what the point of talking if someone just don't get it... I mean this is life, and someone just don't get it... it happens... what can you do?

I mean sometimes, it feels that you're just talking with the wall. Especially, in clssrooms with kids that don't bother to think. But sometimes there is a spark of intelligence in their eyes, and for that I am grateful because after all what is the purpose of teaching history if not to make people think...

So you really believe in change? :roll: You really believe that wethe people changed since WWII?... What can I say? I envy you... without a shade of irony. I mean I really do. Life full of parades... sweet :roll:


If only my life would be so simple... Good luck, man.

[RavenW]

hm.... there is one cure... it will wake you like a call of the sergent at night.

I just thought about it, man!

Read the book of Victor Nekrasov "Little Sad Novel".

V. Nekrasov is Soviet writer and dissident, who participated in the defence of Stalingrad and later was expelled from Soviet Union because of his open opposition to the government.


read it! ;)

Read it! and think it!...

... and then we talk some more about it (maybe over beer, who knows?)... about collapse of Soviet Union, and African Americans in McDonalds and South and North Koreans going hand in hand...


"... Blackbird singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly
All your life
You were only waiting for this moment to arise
... "

[Secret Squirrel]

The change from WWII to now on the battle field is the fact that random or bombing civilians is not an accepted way to wage a war. The U.S didnt flatten Iraq or Baghdad just to get Saddam, even though they easily had the means to do it. Simple concept?

@RavenW...you called yourself a Historian but you havent finished your B.A? Or am i just confused? And why do you take those long quotes (which i assume were points you had made or written?) and lable them alphabetically?(just curious about that last one).

[RavenW]

First, about Saddam. U.S. forces did it as they saw it fit, but then again you miss the point, so I don't see why I should personally continue the discussion with someone who just don't get it. you think that people changed since WWII, have it your way and go home happy.

It's not about argument, or feel who is more mucho man on Internet forum. I think what I think... and I have my reasons to think that way.

You think what you think. And you have your reasons. right?

we lived different lives, and we had different experience...

So, I don't have time or even desire to continue to prove my point if it's obviously beyond your reach. Read the book, I suggested, it might bring us closer to mutual understanding... even though, I doubt it... whatever... That's all what I have to say about your first part of post.

Second point, I honestly did not get your question about alphabetical order? what do you mean? I just don't get it (see :) now I don't get you, as you did not get me). What's wrong with it? What particular part doesn't let you sleep at night?

If you expend on your question, I might be able to explain.

Now, what degree in formal education has to do with person's profession or by that case knowledge or understanding of subject? And what does college have to do with learning process at all? Please, don't tell me that you went to college to learn because it is just sad. The only reason I'm going to college is to get a piece of paper that states that I actually was examed in specific topics, and know them well or well enough to teach...

I mean... learning... learning is just for yourself, isn't it? paper just for administration to keep. I mean... did you start to learn when you went to elementary school? or you went to college? or high school? I don't know, maybe you did...

I think person starts to learn since he/she become able to comprehend abstrat ideas and learns how to read. After that it is pretty much on your own, with few good friends along the road that guide you toward your goal, whether it is a better understanding of human organism, volcanos on the moon or just, simply, lives of previous generations.

Any way, until you explain your last question about "alphabet" I can't help you, man. Sorry. :)

[Secret Squirrel]

@Raven...Was the point buried in some of your long quotes? But please point out where i'm wrong, even one example of a legitimate war in the later 1990s or early 2000 where civilian populations were purposely targetted (you did realize this is what i meant from an earlier post right?). To be honest, if you havent the desire to type out a full response then just dont say anything at all. Still waiting on your answer if you have any degrees? or anything? You called yourself a historian, to me that means someone with a Ph.D or at least on a tenure track.
College doesnt have anything to do with learning processes? Spoken like someone who hasnt finished any degrees. Yes i went to college to learn, both the information and the techniques of historical research, among other things. And as you put it, i have two "pieces of paper"...it'll be awhile though before i get the third one. Why do you try to dodge questions with attempts at vain insults?

[pretorian669]

There is nothing louder than the silent joy in the hart of the warrior after winning a battle. We are at war for a long time. And war is about winning. Every soldier is happy when his side wins a battle. About collateral damage: It’s a part war. There is a big difference between lets say killing Osama Bin Laden with a hellfire and an innocent boy is hit too because he was in the same area and attacking civilians.
Just my 0.02$

[786mine]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.
No children or civilians were killed in the assassinations of Rantisi and Yassin and also now, only before them civilians got hurt because the IAF (IASF? I've heard that they changed the name) didn't have enough UAVs patrolling over Gaza.
BTW, Rantisi's and Yassin's assassination were postponed many times because of civilian attendance.

read the facts man, Yassin was killed, so were two by-sanders.

[786mine]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

Sounds like Iraq. But i guess the question is, is it better to chance innocents dying to take down a dangerous person or is it better to leave the dangerous person alone and let him kill the innocents?

What are you talking about? EVERY life is precious. Why kill an innocent person? That poor fellow has done nothing wrong. Why should he/she pay the ultimate price? We should not be like the terrorist, who thinks that ALL Israelis are infidels or that all Americans are loosers. They paint us all with one brush. We should be able to differenciate b/w good and bad. And if you think its OK to take one innocent life to take the target, why don't you start that theory with yourself and be that first sacrifice. No dis-respresct bro, but I am just simply not understanding how you can say that....

[786mine]

http://forumspam.articblue.nl/user_related/owned/images/0694.jpg
Who's next?

That is the first time I've seen him smile. :). Looks good. Btw, what does Sharroned mean?

[Secret Squirrel]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

Sounds like Iraq. But i guess the question is, is it better to chance innocents dying to take down a dangerous person or is it better to leave the dangerous person alone and let him kill the innocents?

What are you talking about? EVERY life is precious. Why kill an innocent person? That poor fellow has done nothing wrong. Why should he/she pay the ultimate price? We should not be like the terrorist, who thinks that ALL Israelis are infidels or that all Americans are loosers. They paint us all with one brush. We should be able to differenciate b/w good and bad. And if you think its OK to take one innocent life to take the target, why don't you start that theory with yourself and be that first sacrifice. No dis-respresct bro, but I am just simply not understanding how you can say that....

Are you refering to what i said? If you are i posed it as a question for a reason. And i personally dont know the answer to my question. But it seems to be a question that sums up the situation. A terrorist is going to kill, that seems to be their whole purpose. So do you 1) leave their leaders and financers alone until you find them completely alone in the desert? Or do you take your oppurunities when you get them, if the situation seems somewhat favorable? As for your suggestion i give up my life to take down a terrorist...well thanks to the apache i dont have to make that decision.

[Moledet]

http://forumspam.articblue.nl/user_related/owned/images/0694.jpg
Who's next?

That is the first time I've seen him smile. :). Looks good. Btw, what does Sharroned mean?
Got Owned by Sharon :)
Or got his ass kicked by Sharon.

[AirZone]

RavenW, I really love to read your posts woot
very intersting...

[hey]

786mine wrote:

read the facts man, Yassin was killed, so were two by-sanders.

That's not correct. They were his bodygurds.
And if you think that Hamas bodygurds are innocent by-standers then... think again :cantbeli:

[Sway]

maybe in that case hey...but thats not always the case ...may 2003

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Israeli troops surrounded and attacked the home of a Hamas military leader Thursday in Gaza, killing him and his two brothers, Palestinian security sources said.

At least 10 other Palestinians, including a 2-year-old and a 13-year-old, died in the attack.

ALso when rantisi got killed, 2 other people died...one being a bodyguard which u dont care about...but .the other being a bystandered.

[786mine]

http://forumspam.articblue.nl/user_related/owned/images/0694.jpg
Who's next?

That is the first time I've seen him smile. :). Looks good. Btw, what does Sharroned mean?
Got Owned by Sharon :)
Or got his ass kicked by Sharon.

LOL!!!! :cantbeli: the picture of Sharron and with the heading Sharrowned is funny. good thinking.

[786mine]

HAMAS LEADER KILLED IN AIR STRIKE
Job well done.
The only way to deal with terrorists is brutality and fanatical cruelty - those are the only things they understand.

i think this is not right, for the israli forces to use such massive firepower to get just one person and in the processes killing children and innocent people. and the worse part is that the israelis blame the victim.

Sounds like Iraq. But i guess the question is, is it better to chance innocents dying to take down a dangerous person or is it better to leave the dangerous person alone and let him kill the innocents?

What are you talking about? EVERY life is precious. Why kill an innocent person? That poor fellow has done nothing wrong. Why should he/she pay the ultimate price? We should not be like the terrorist, who thinks that ALL Israelis are infidels or that all Americans are loosers. They paint us all with one brush. We should be able to differenciate b/w good and bad. And if you think its OK to take one innocent life to take the target, why don't you start that theory with yourself and be that first sacrifice. No dis-respresct bro, but I am just simply not understanding how you can say that....

Are you refering to what i said? If you are i posed it as a question for a reason. And i personally dont know the answer to my question. But it seems to be a question that sums up the situation. A terrorist is going to kill, that seems to be their whole purpose. So do you 1) leave their leaders and financers alone until you find them completely alone in the desert? Or do you take your oppurunities when you get them, if the situation seems somewhat favorable? As for your suggestion i give up my life to take down a terrorist...well thanks to the apache i dont have to make that decision.

Well Secret Squirrel, your life is your life. I would not want die with an Apache gunship missile.