IntegratedTourniquet System (I.T.S.) Pants

[NeverDown]

Just saw these on Blackhawks site, not trying to advertise for them just thought it was a neat idea. I wonder if they will put somthing like this in the ACUs in the future.

http://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_0.JPGhttp://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_1.JPG

[Hollis]

Just saw these on Blackhawks site, not trying to advertise for them just thought it was a neat idea. I wonder if they will put somthing like this in the ACUs in the future.




I am wondering why? It may be a cool marketing idea.

[JKinnaird]

Interesting idea, but it kinda has a brutal/grusome underlying implication.
It is kinda like saying, "when you suffer from a hemorage and/or loss of a limb, we{blackhawk ind.} were thinking of you when we designed these high speed pants!"

[bvvelzen]

to save lives?

[Hippo]

better than the old redcoats of the british which had high collars to prevent them from seeing the men on the left and right of them get hit and have the uniform color red in an attempt to prevent others from seeing blood

[Royal]

better than the old redcoats of the british which had high collars to prevent them from seeing the men on the left and right of them get hit and have the uniform color red in an attempt to prevent others from seeing blood

Actually they were red to differentiate them from the (much older) Royal Navy and the cavalry, who wore blue. Also, the collars didn't prevent them from turning their heads (they were open), the leather stocks worn round their necks did.

[NeverDown]

I think it will save lives, its practical thats all that matters.. I bet you will see pics of Airsofters wearing them in the future for some reason. But if they could mass produce them and put it in a military use I think it will have a positive affect.

[James]

Just saw these on Blackhawks site, not trying to advertise for them just thought it was a neat idea. I wonder if they will put somthing like this in the ACUs in the future.

http://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_0.JPGhttp://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_1.JPG

:roll: I think this is silly. Blackhawk has invented a product for which there is little if any need. I'll keep my regular pants and my regular tourniquet, thank you very much.

[Hollis]

I think it will save lives, its practical thats all that matters.. I bet you will see pics of Airsofters wearing them in the future for some reason. But if they could mass produce them and put it in a military use I think it will have a positive affect.


I am sticking with James on this one. It seems the bold section is the main marketing area. Another thought would be some kinking *** bondage thing.


BTW, Ask Doc what he thinks. He may answer when he quits laughing, would be my thoughts.

[NeverDown]

I see both sides to it, In a way it would be easier to just pack a regular tourniquet and regular pants.. just a neat idea i think. I'm not buying them lol I think it would suck to have tourniquets all over your legs.

[Hollis]

I see both sides to it, In a way it would be easier to just pack a regular tourniquet and regular pants.. just a neat idea i think. I'm not buying them lol I think it would suck to have tourniquets all over your legs.


I read somewhere the rules to warfare. One point was the army with the simplest uniforms win. All a grunt needs is more crap to carry.

I am not against innovations, Hope they keep trying.

[James]

I bet if you had to walk any distance with 4 tourniquets around your legs, you would get chafed.

Sometimes I wish I'd thought to jump on the "Tactical" bandwagon in 2002. You can take pretty much anything that's been around for years, color it khaki or olive green, and it becomes "Tactical"... Like the Royal Robbins pants. They used to just be hiking pants, but now they're 5.11 tactical...

I'd be a gazillionaire by now. :{)

[California Joe]

The Blood Diamond pants don't have built in tourniquets. 'Nuff said.

[Irish_11]

Sometimes I wish I'd thought to jump on the "Tactical" bandwagon in 2002. You can take pretty much anything that's been around for years, color it khaki or olive green, and it becomes "Tactical"... Like the Royal Robbins pants. They used to just be hiking pants, but now they're 5.11 tactical...

I'd be a gazillionaire by now. :{)

I know I could retire and buy some sweet toys if I would have hopped on that one.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

Maybe next we'll see Kevlar pants with pockets for SAPI plates.

[NeverDown]

I bet if you had to walk any distance with 4 tourniquets around your legs, you would get chafed.

Sometimes I wish I'd thought to jump on the "Tactical" bandwagon in 2002. You can take pretty much anything that's been around for years, color it khaki or olive green, and it becomes "Tactical"... Like the Royal Robbins pants. They used to just be hiking pants, but now they're 5.11 tactical...

I'd be a gazillionaire by now. :{)


Amen, I'm with you on that.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Maybe next we'll see Kevlar pants with pockets for SAPI plates.there are already drop-leg platforms that hold sapi for the the thigh region. why? couldnt tell you.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

there are already drop-leg platforms that hold sapi for the the thigh region. why? couldnt tell you.

I must have missed that, my bad :oops:
I've seen the Improved OTV with groin protection; not the same?

Actually, I was just musing that at some point, the ACU might have pockets along the thigh and lower leg for SAPI plates. It was intended to be a slightly facetious remark. Sounds like the weight of current protection is pushing the limit.

My knowledge is very limited, my apologies.

[Ohtar]

http://www.tacarm.com/bcu.htm

Maybe not sapi, but what the hell.

[Sloppy Joe2]

I must have missed that, my bad :oops:
I've seen the Improved OTV with groin protection; not the same?

Actually, I was just musing that at some point, the ACU might have pockets along the thigh and lower leg for SAPI plates. It was intended to be a slightly facetious remark. Sounds like the weight of current protection is pushing the limit. no here is great link on the topic
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/protective.html

the armor these days, gadgets and protective gear is getting out of control.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

no here is great link on the topic
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/protective.html

the armor these days, gadgets and protective gear is getting out of control.

Thanks for the link!

I'm for buying / equipping our guys with as much protection as they can carry. I'm sure there is a limit. I guess, Just listen to what they guys in the field say.

I like militarymorons.com. Usually very informative.
But isn't the stuff on that site for non-military use?

Is the BCU what the Army is currently using? I thought that IOTV was the protective unit of the uniform. Or is it just part of the BCU. I'm confused.

Here is one link I had been using as a reference:
IOTV: Interceptor's Incremental Improvement (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/iotv-interceptors-incremental-improvement-03381/)

[Sloppy Joe2]

Thanks for the link!

I'm for buying / equipping our guys with as much protection as they can carry. I'm sure there is a limit. I guess, Just listen to what they guys in the field say.

I like militarymorons.com. Usually very informative.
But isn't the stuff on that site for non-military use?

Is the BCU what the Army is currently using? I thought that IOTV was the protective unit of the uniform. Or is it just part of the BCU. I'm confused.
it is just a product out there, the Army is not "currently" using it.

there was a video from cnn on marines pushing a VBIED in which one of the marines had drop-leg Sapi insert, cant find it.

there is a limit in which the U.S Army is near going over. as horrible as it sounds, people need to accept that regardless of how much armor you put on someone people are still going to get wounded and killed. capibility to move is just as important as armored protection.

[The Evil Doctor Faustus]

just a small point, but if someone was to suffer somekind of catastrophic wound as a result of landmine/explosion etc, then your trousers tend to go the same way as the bits of your legs that go missing, and along with that, the gucci sewn-in tourniquet......oh well, ffd anyone?

[NeverDown]

Good point, and when your getting treated the medics cut off the clothing around the wound alot of the time.

[The Evil Doctor Faustus]

yes, and not to mention burns/melted fabric

i think we've deduced its a wank idea . . . give us something we need- like trousers with in-built ****!

[GoSka37]

yes, and not to mention burns/melted fabric

i think we've deduced its a wank idea . . . give us something we need- like trousers with in-built ****!

... I like the way you think.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

it is just a product out there, the Army is not "currently" using it.

there was a video from cnn on marines pushing a VBIED in which one of the marines had drop-leg Sapi insert, cant find it.

there is a limit in which the U.S Army is near going over. as horrible as it sounds, people need to accept that regardless of how much armor you put on someone people are still going to get wounded and killed. capibility to move is just as important as armored protection.

Ahh, thanks!

This has probably been asked before, but what discretion does an individual soldier have about personal protective gear: Does it have to be selected from a government approved list or can they buy whatever they want?

I do take your point about the inevitability of casualties in war, but I think the effort to improve protection should be ongoing. We should always be trying to make it lighter and increase the coverage.

[NeoConPatriot]

A built in condom would get more use. The ballistic nylon might chafe though.

[NeverDown]

Yes I have to say now... stupid idea, pointless and too many cons to be practical or TACTICAL. lol we throw that word around to much.

soon we will have Tactical Tampons

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Yes I have to say now... stupid idea, pointless and too many cons to be practical or TACTICAL. lol we throw that word around to much.

soon we will have Tactical Tampons

Most of the comments are right about being able to move. Too much weight to carry by adding enough armor to mimic a M1 Abrahms is stupid....

BAck in the day, the military had the fiberglass flak jackets, and the Kevelar ones..they were buky then, and hard to manuver in...I can only imagine what a interceptor vest with plates feels like

[The Evil Doctor Faustus]

Most of the comments are right about being able to move. Too much weight to carry by adding enough armor to mimic a M1 Abrahms is stupid....

BAck in the day, the military had the fiberglass flak jackets, and the Kevelar ones..they were buky then, and hard to manuver in...I can only imagine what a interceptor vest with plates feels like

Back in the day?! hardly worht mentioning in the grand scheme of things - Men have been confronting gunfire without effective armour longer than they have been with it.

[JKinnaird]

Maybe next we'll see Kevlar pants with pockets for SAPI plates.
Here is something that is pretty cloase to that
http://tacarm.com/

[lt tahoe]

A solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If you're carrying your IFAK with tourniquet (or two), it can be applied on any limb anyway. What if you get hit in the arm with those pants on? You still need to carry a tourniquet anyway.

If the hit is so critical that you truly need those couple extra seconds to put the tourniquet on, your chances of survival are pretty grim anyway.

[Ohtar]

Four tourniquets in the pants and four tourniquets in the shirt (two in the short sleeve version)

Maybe a neck warmer also ;P

[IMTT]

Firstly; I find it hard to believe that Blackhawk came up with this on their own not unlike everything else they sell.
Secondly; what happens when you wash these things repeatedly?
Thirdly; if you think you will need a tourniquet carrying one, like everybody else downrange in your chest rig along with your clot stopper.

I'm sure that most of the guys sporting these are more than a little far from danger or getting their legs blown off. If I start seeing these being worn in CONUS at SWAT conventions, COP shows and the like I'm flat out laughing my A** off!

This is a great sales niche; I give them an A for effort. I applaud Blackhawk for this one, shear genius…get them while their hot! Only the coolest shooters, looters and operators wear these beauties. Hey even the “team guys” wear these babies, don’t get left behind. Hey action guys don't forget to add your true operator tan ball cap with velcro tabs.

[NeverDown]

Firstly; I find it hard to believe that Blackhawk came up with this on their own not unlike everything else they sell.
Secondly; what happens when you wash these things repeatedly?
Thirdly; if you think you will need a tourniquet carrying one, like everybody else downrange in your chest rig along with your clot stopper.

I'm sure that most of the guys sporting these are more than a little far from danger or getting their legs blown off. If I start seeing these being worn in CONUS at SWAT conventions, COP shows and the like I'm flat out laughing my A** off!

This is a great sales niche; I give them an A for effort. I applaud Blackhawk for this one, shear genius…get them while their hot! Only the coolest shooters, looters and operators wear these beauties. Hey even the “team guys” wear these babies, don’t get left behind. Hey action guys don't forget to add your true operator tan ball cap with velcro tabs.

the only thing i have from blackhawk is the comando chest rig, i think its copied from eagle ind.

[LineDoggie]

Just saw these on Blackhawks site, not trying to advertise for them just thought it was a neat idea. I wonder if they will put somthing like this in the ACUs in the future.

http://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_0.JPGhttp://www.blackhawk.com/images/catalog/87IT01_1.JPG

Damn, those are just stupid. Whats next , a Necktie Tourniquet in case of headwounds?

[~center~]

Well, I think it's a good idea (in theory). I know more than a few instances where this could have saved someone's life had they been wearing them. I can see where drivers or others on mobile could use something like this and it has been discussed before in the community. Some guys had even taken to actually sewing them into their trousers.

I'm sure wearing and washing them will be a bitch though, simply because the tournequet buckles will probly wear through the material quickly.

The funniest/lame part about these is, your gonna start seeing Joe-nobody-the-tactical-ninga start wearing them at every airsoft game or at your local police range. In that aspect, Blackhawk does it again. :roll:

Like others have said, I'll stick to carrying mine in my medkit. ;-)

[dacanadianbomb]

I bet your going to have people buy that only to have the entire strap and mechanism turned to ash/molten by the heat and flash fire hitting it.Besides, if the thing isnt instantly detachable you will have to funk around trying to move it up or down. But Im sure its mucho tacti-cool.
Coming to a movie near you soon, fo sho

[Hollis]

Center I think sometimes there is superstition in a soldier mind. A new guy, minds goes wild on the thought of what will be and tries to prepare for all the eventualities. They will load themselves down will all sort of crap, if they could. That is what the Gunny is for, to keep it simple.

It was like helmets, I knew one guy, first round fired and he would take his helmet off, he felt it was more a liability on than off.

On my flak jackets, I removed all the ceramic plates, except one over the heart for good luck. I hated the weight. The padded shoulders kept my pack from cutting into my shoulders. We humped way to much stuff.

Guys were mixed on flak jackets as a liability.

We had a LT, take a round in his helmet and the round buzzed around inside. He survived last time I asked, he is still alive, but it did do permanent damage to him.

Same on flak jackets, with a round buzzing around.

IMHO, that is what Doc is for, he carries all his stuff.

[~center~]

^^^ LOL, so true brotha! Funny how superstition comes into play on the field. :)
In the end, I suppose you just hope your training, common sense, and the man to your left and right will be enough to bring you home. Which reminds me, our team medic just left for another job (probly the best medic we had). Here comes that superstition thing again...

[Old Soldier]

Am stunned by the ignorance of some of these comments. Do any of you know how fast you can bleed out? I’ll tell you – it’s faster than you’ll be able to find, apply, and secure a “portable” tourniquet stuffed into the bottom of some pouch or pack, especially in the chaos of a fight. (And especially faster than waiting for “Doc” to arrive.) Our body armor does a great job, so now the majority of casualties are to the extremities – I’ve been to Walter Reed and have seen this tragedy first hand. According to my very limited research on these things, the combat-experienced surgeon who developed these with Blackhawk says that "60% of preventable combat deaths are from extremity bleeding and 50-70% of all combat injuries are extremity wounds". Also that the “combined weight is less than one traditional tourniquet”. These ITS things are already on you at all the key places (upper and lower arms and legs), under the bulk and clutter of all your gear, and ready to go. How can that be a bad thing or as useless as most of you suggest? Get over your parochial support or prejudices about these various manufacturers and understand that they’re actually working to provide innovative and good gear to all of us. Please be mature and thoughtful in your responses to this. Sorry if I offend anyone with these comments.

[~center~]

Hey "Old Soldier" quit hawking your f#*king Blackhawk gear in the MP.net forums. What, are you working for BH? Maybe your a distributor or retailer? Your response sounded like a suspicious commercial to me so I looked at your other posts; Gee, all 4 of them were for BH gear, shocking (BTW, all those questions were rhetorical).... :roll:

Having said that, I have used and currently use Blackhawk gear in my daily duties. There a good company and I trust their gear, however; No company is the know it all of tactical superness, even Blackhawk. Each user picks what best suits them for a particular situation. I'm no different, using items from Blackhawk, Eagle, Diamondback Tactical, Bianchi, Safariland, and others.
Having said all that, the BH tourniquet system seems like a good idea to me, but we'll see.

[Old Soldier]

Expected such comments that I shouldn't be surprised by. Yeah, I'm a BH fan, so what? Read all the posts on this subject then mine above. I also have - and have used - stuff by each of the companies you mention as well as others and have recommended gear I've personally used. The best tactical gear out there is what works for you. I was simply hoping that for once there would be a bit more depth to the discussion and am trying to get folks on this forum to think a bit more about it. My comments on it are based on tactical experience and a few minutes of web searching to learn more about these - not just mindless comments as some others (again, read all above). Sorry if that's a problem.

[James]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]Am stunned by the ignorance of some of these comments. Do any of you know how fast you can bleed out? I’ll tell you – it’s faster than you’ll be able to find, apply, and secure a “portable” tourniquet stuffed into the bottom of some pouch or pack, especially in the chaos of a fight.

I won't speak for everyone, but I have 2 in my 1st aid kit on the right side of my kit... same place they've always been, where I've trained with them, etc. One of the benefits of having them in a kit instead of inside your pants is that you aren't limited to using them only on yourself...


These ITS things are already on you at all the key places (upper and lower arms and legs), under the bulk and clutter of all your gear, and ready to go. How can that be a bad thing or as useless as most of you suggest?

I wonder how comfortable they'd be after walking a few miles in 120 degree heat and humidity... Maybe next, Blackhawk can develop a shirt that has built in IV bags and catheters to automatically give you IVs in each arm... When you get hit, first activate your tourniquets, then open the IV feeds! Brilliant! :roll:
I am speaking as both a veteran and a contractor with a fair amount of recent experience in Afghanistan. I am WELL aware of the hazards of rapid blood loss, but for me, this can be lumped in with side plates for armor, shoulder plates, and that new ACU someone invented that has soft armor in the legs and sleeves. We should just issue grunts EOD suits and be done with it. They can drive around on tactical Segway scooters since they'll be too encumbered to move around on their own...


Get over your parochial support or prejudices about these various manufacturers and understand that they’re actually working to provide innovative and good gear to all of us.

Actually, I think they're in business to make money. It's nice that they want to help our men and women who go into harms way, but they're in business to make a buck too. That's the whole point of being in business!
Since when has BH been innovative anyway? Everything I've seen from them in the past five years (at least) appear to have been copied from Eagle, BattleLab, and Royal Robbins, with a few very minor changes. BH has copied more stuff than I can shake a stick at. I've used it and found the quality disappointing.

[Hippo]

Actually they were red to differentiate them from the (much older) Royal Navy and the cavalry, who wore blue. Also, the collars didn't prevent them from turning their heads (they were open), the leather stocks worn round their necks did.

I stand corrected. Hooray American History, not. Thanks Royal

[IMTT]

Dear Old Soldier,

I have only seen and been exposed to a couple of incidents requiring the use of Tourniquet. In one case the arm and leg of the victim were destroyed by a VBIED. The soldiers from escorting vehicles applied the Tourniquet that they possessed in their gear. The victim was out cold and unable to adminster self-aid. The victim ended up in Walter Reed. Your point rings true regarding the use of Tourniquet but I still don't think the use of these pants would make any difference. For that matter in the cases I'm aware of these wouldn't have made any difference in the outcome. Besides all of this the guys were in issue uniforms and not authorized to wear these. Yes, the application of the Tourniquet saves lives and has saved many. I don't think these will make any real difference in those numbers over the long haul whether you wear these pants or your partner applies the strap or you do.

I have never toured any hospitals or spoken to a Doctor about this other than what we learned in Combat Life saver training prior to deployment(s). Let me not forget our team medic who scared the sh-t out of us more than once.

With all this said; given the opportunity to wear these down range I probibly would, more for a feeling of mental comfort than real protection. For more or less the same reasons I always carried my wifes picture, a large knife and all my gear in exactly the same place with my lucky charms.

"Never stand next to unlucky people".

[Sabre]

The key determinants of effective tourniquet use are firstly identifying and locating an injury that requires a tourniquet and secondly correct technique.

I think these tourniquets are at risk of compromising both of those aspects. Firstly, the ability of a casualty to assess their own wounds is variable. Determining the correct placement of the TK in relation to the injury may be impossible for the casualty, or as IMTT noted, they may be incapacitated. For a medic presented with a lower limb trauma, one of the first actions would be to expose the legs to assess the injury and identify any bleeds. Doing so with trauma sheers would cut the tourniquets. In addition, the medic may well be unfamiliar with the system and choose to use their own kit.

Having the TK sewn into the trouser then presents the problem of placing it in the correct location. If the wound is higher up then the trouser must be moved up. If it has become snagged, torn or burned then this becomes an issue. If the trouser leg is out of alignment or rucked or twisted, then the tourniquet may not be applied properly.

My preferred method would be to:

a) Use direct pressure on obvious bleeds
b) Completely expose the limb to determine the extent of injury (there is potential with these trousers to leave them intact and miss a proximal injury)
c) Apply a stand alone tourniquet +/- pressure dressing as indicated
d) Employ haemostatic agents if bleeding is junctional/uncontrolled.

Short answer, interesting idea but not 'gold standard'. I certainly wouldn't wear them.

[James]

^^^ Current SOP for many U.S. units/organizations it to apply a tourniquet immediately for any extremity wound, then assess. If the tourniquet isn't necessary, it can be removed, but using one won't cause any permanent injury.

I'm seriously wondering if the integrated IV jacket I invented in my earlier post would make me some money...

[Hollis]

^^^ Current SOP for many U.S. units/organizations it to apply a tourniquet immediately for any extremity wound, then assess. If the tourniquet isn't necessary, it can be removed, but using one won't cause any permanent injury.

I'm seriously wondering if the integrated IV jacket I invented in my earlier post would make me some money...


Interesting, I was thinking of a integrated blow up doll or guy (for Women soldiers) for those moments when they need some "down home comfort".


"Sarge, some guy is with Kathy on watch."

Sarge, "private, that is not a guy just the new acceptable social companion built into her BDUs."

[IMTT]

Sabre brings up a good point; I failed to mention in the example the victim's trousers and blouse were severely burned from the flash fire and shredded. The only reason he survived was the use of his helmet and IBA (both were badly damaged on the exterior but the interiors were perfect) combined with rapid first aid. The bird was on station within 15 minutes and he on his way to a hospital.

[Sivil4ever]

Interesting, I was thinking of a integrated blow up doll or guy (for Women soldiers) for those moments when they need some "down home comfort".


"Sarge, some guy is with Kathy on watch."

Sarge, "private, that is not a guy just the new acceptable social companion built into her BDUs."

Fleshlight my friendp-).
Wnack of, then have a light redy for usewoot