Delta Force now subject of investigation

[Bulkowski]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5024068/?GT1=3391

BAGHDAD - With attention focused on the seven soldiers charged with abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, U.S. military and intelligence officials familiar with the situation tell NBC News the Army’s elite Delta Force is now the subject of a Pentagon inspector general investigation into abuse against detainees.

The target is a top-secret site near Baghdad’s airport. The battlefield interrogation facility known as the “BIF” is pictured in satellite photos.

According to two top U.S. government sources, it is the scene of the most egregious violations of the Geneva Conventions in all of Iraq’s prisons. A place where the normal rules of interrogation don’t apply, Delta Force’s BIF only holds Iraqi insurgents and suspected terrorists — but not the most wanted among Saddam’s lieutenants pictured on the deck of cards.

These sources say the prisoners there are hooded from the moment they are captured. They are kept in tiny dark cells. And in the BIF’s six interrogation rooms, Delta Force soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he’s drowning, or smother them almost to suffocation

All of these practices would be violations of the Geneva Conventions. The conventions do not apply to stateless terrorists — the so-called non-enemy combatants like al-Qaida suspects caught by the United States in Afghanistan.

But as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has made clear, the Geneva Conventions do apply in Iraq.

[Uncle Sam]

I must investigate this further...

We should all investigate something...

Interesting investigation...

Investigate this...

I'm sick and tired of our guys, who happen to be doing the toughest job right now, being 'investigated" !!

This is BS !

[bishop1]

Pure 100% B.S. thats the reason units like Delta excist, to be different and unconventional and let off the leash, Delta ecspecially isnt a unit you should have a backseat driver with. Let them do what they need to to get the job done.

[Brozozo]

Pure 100% B.S. thats the reason units like Delta excist, to be different and unconventional and let off the leash, Delta ecspecially isnt a unit you should have a backseat driver with. Let them do what they need to to get the job done.

Ya daaaaaammn right!

[AFACadet]

That's not the way it works, even unconventional units must follow the rules of war and the LOAC principals.

[mobster]

This is really getting annoying. They decapitate civilians, yet our own government makes a public investigation on the most secret soldiers in America because they put a bag over the head of a terrorist? **** that. This is war, not prom.

[usa320]

this is bull****. Our guys are not going to be able to effecitively execute the global war on terror if they have to hesitate or second guess every decision, command and order that is given in fear of being investigated or court marshalled.

We need to look at this in historical terms. Had We captured Al Zwahiri or Atef 3 years ago and had them detained, we could have been able to saved thousands of lives by doing whatever we had to do to get information from them. Now by not interrogating suspected terrorists to the fullest we are putting American and foreign civilian's lives at risk.

The media needs to drink a piping hot glass of Shut the **** Up and let the god damn military do its job so we can prevent another terrorist attack.

Its these interrogation methods that more than likely led us to Saddam, Atef, the stockpiles of Sarin and VX in Jordan and Syria, the southeast asian embassy plots, the London ricin threat...ect... In this war we need to make evil people a bit uncomfortable if thats whats necessary to protect good people from being killed in brutal attacks.

[Brozozo]

If unconventional units followed all the rules of war like conventional units they wouldn't be unconventional units. Their ability and effectiveness lies with the fact that they don't always play with the rules and manipulate situations to suit their needs. Unfortunately this can't be used on a mass scale for obvious reasons. But you can bet if we had 20,000 D-Boys running around Iraq and A-Stan you wouldn't hear a peep from the insurgents.

[bishop1]

Yeah, the same people who would deny anyexsicstance of Delta and make sure nobody knew about them are now putting them under investigation. Its kinda stupid they were being so secretive about em, but since that was the route they went they should keep it that way. Ever heard of OPSEC?

[AFACadet]

No, that's what makes us different from them... we follow the rules and laws. Its what makes us a PROFESSIONAL armed force and just a bunch of savages.


Like it or not, that's the way things need to be. The higher up you get in job specialty in the US military, the more you are taught the LOAC principals.

The reservists in the prision, as well as most other troops, get very little on the Rules of War--they probably didn't know half the stuff they were doing was against international law, but that still does not make it ok.

[Brozozo]

No, that's what makes us different from them... we follow the rules and laws. Its what makes us a PROFESSIONAL armed force and just a bunch of savages.


Like it or not, that's the way things need to be. The higher up you get in job specialty in the US military, the more you are taught the LOAC principals.

The reservists in the prision, as well as most other troops, get very little on the Rules of War--they probably didn't know half the stuff they were doing was against international law, but that still does not make it ok.

True, but as I said; the effectiveness of Delta and other similar units lies with their unconventional methods of warfare, which more than likely do include certain violations of international law. We can't expect SF units to strike the same fear into the hearts of our enemies if they afforded them all the relative luxuries of the Geneva convention.

[MEGR]

This prison abuse deal is going way to far.. We've been beating ourselves up on this too freaking long. Delta has my support. You know what, I'm glad that Delta is possibly violating the Geneva convention.

[bishop1]

true that DEVGRU, we need someone who can get **** done without holding dinners and kissing babies to make sure everybodys happy and ok with it. Let them do and be what theyve trained so long for. Kick ****ing ass,no matter who it pisses off.

[AFACadet]

Well, can you give a few examples then?


I'm not really following how a spec ops unit has to break LOAC to sucessfully complete its mission.

Please give the spicific rules they must break or which of the 5 tennants that apply.

I'm not trying to be a ****, but everything I've been told, everything I've seen, and everything thing that groups like PJs or CCTs have told me has clearly said they can accomplish their mission just fine staying well within the various rules. If that's not the case, I would like to know differently right now.

[bishop1]

no offense airforce boy, although PJs and CCTs are special ops and often accompany DA teams like SF or SEALs they have a very different mission that Delta, you cannot in any way compare the 2 in techniques or doctrines.

[Vance]

Delta? What's that?

[rob]

That's not the way it works, even unconventional units must follow the rules of war and the LOAC principals.

while the magority of your forces fallow these rules, it sometimes needs to be done and i think it is fair considering that the enemy does much worse.

i think im starting to agree with my friend when he says this country is too damn soft.

[Brozozo]

I don't know of any specific examples myself, but from the article we know that they supposedly did break the rules to get the job done. Some of those militants in Abu Gharib and Guantanamo are hard motherf*ckers and I doubt treating them like your friends will make them talk. In cases like that, Delta's methods are likely the most effective way.

[venture160]

i think its disgusting that you people think we should violate the geneva convention, with all of our great power and intelligence, don't you think we should be able to fight the terrorists without using the EXACT same tactics they use?

[Brozozo]

i think its disgusting that you people think we should violate the geneva convention, with all of our great power and intelligence, don't you think we should be able to fight the terrorists without using the EXACT same tactics they use?

I think you mean "without" the same tactics?

[Brozozo]

NM, looks like you just edited...

[AFACadet]

That's what everyone in a combat situation must face. It does not matter if you are a unconventional force or not. There are two choices, don't break the rules, or break them.

I'll give an example that will hopefully clear up some of what I'm writing (and what I didn't write before).


During the Korean War, there were a number of strict ROEs. One of those was not to fly over the Chinese border (for obvious reasons).
It pissed the pilots off because the MiGs would fly back to safety with things weren't going right for them. In addition, the bases would remain fully operational.

One one of the missions, a guy named 'Buster' Glossen (sp?) was in his flight of F-86s. Once again, they got attacked and one of their buddies was about to be shot down. A number of the pilots, including Buster, flew across the boarder and attacked one of the Chinese bases. They saved their friend, but in the process, could have litterly started WWIII. The broke a major ROE (not a LOAC principal or rule of war but its not all that different). They had a spicific goal in mind. They needed to get something done, and they saved a fellow American's life.

But what would happen if more and more pilots continued to break the ROEs, and then the Rules of War or LOAC principals? You would start getting less an less control of the military and evertying would start to sprial down into anarchy. You can't have people doing what ever they want ALL the time to get a mission done.

That is the US militaries standpoint.


Now, what would Ihave done? Would I have broken the ROEs (or the Rules of War, LOAC principals)? It depends on the case.


In the F-86s situation, yes I would, in a hearbeat.



But here is the important point:

YOU MUST BE WILLING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. I don't care who you are, or what you are doing, that must be a choice on your part.

If a spec ops unit had to break the rules of war, so be it, but then they must be fully willing to face the JAG or be placed in jail. The Rules of War and LOAC principals are there for a reason and you can't decide when they do and don't apply to an enemy uniformed soldier or innocent civilian. Make a choice to break the rules, but be ready for the **** rolling down hill afterwords.

[bishop1]

Man, im not even gonna argue with the people who find it wrong that we break the Guneva (sp) convention on people who support the murderous dictator that gassed, tortured and killed hundreds and thousands of people. People that honestly beleive what we did was that disgusting are a waste of my time to argue with.

[mobster]

I'm not saying we drag them in the streets and then BURN the bodies like they do, but yeah, smack 'em around a little. Fight fire with fire, even the bible says "An eye for an eye." Go get 'em CAG.

[Brozozo]

But what would happen if more and more pilots continued to break the ROEs, and then the Rules of War or LOAC principals? You would start getting less an less control of the military and evertying would start to sprial down into anarchy. You can't have people doing what ever they want ALL the time to get a mission done.


That's why I said it cannot happen on a large scale within mainstream military units. Such widespread abuses obviously do have damaging effects on the US but when our TOP-SECRET units gets flamed for doing something the media shouldn't know about, then something is wrong...

[budanski]

Not that I condone what happened at Abu Gharib. (The posed shots remind me more typical of college hazing, the pict with the corpse is just morbid, but then again, I havent seen all the photos to pass more judgement) What everyone is witnessing today is the "golden age" of the Abu Gharib prison itself. What had happened BEFORE the americans were there and what happens AFTER they leave will make what you see today well, ...a typical college hazing.

While the media concentrates on Abu Gharib, it sweeps Nick Berg's murder, the evidence of Sarin gas found/used in Iraq, the U.N. oil-for-food scandal all under the rug. Theres no shortage of cries of Geneva violations while quiet as the enemies commit acts barbarism and are portrayed as victims. The american people can only take so much to where one day, perhaps, would get tired of it and just not care as it is evident we're fighting a "PC" war.

[n4292936]

If unconventional units followed all the rules of war like conventional units they wouldn't be unconventional units. Their ability and effectiveness lies with the fact that they don't always play with the rules and manipulate situations to suit their needs. Unfortunately this can't be used on a mass scale for obvious reasons. But you can bet if we had 20,000 D-Boys running around Iraq and A-Stan you wouldn't hear a peep from the insurgents.
I dont think that a requisite for a unit to be SF is that there mission parameters must include the breaking of a rule(s) of war. When Delta performs recon, direct action, hostage rescue etc they do not necessarily go outside the bounds of good conduct as we would expect from a 1st world military - they do, however, go outside the bounds of conventional soldiering. The relevant rules in this discussion are those related to conduct of prisoner interrogations anyway - a very calculated and deliberate thing. SpecOps and the Rules of War are not mutually exclusive. :hug:

[Brozozo]

If unconventional units followed all the rules of war like conventional units they wouldn't be unconventional units. Their ability and effectiveness lies with the fact that they don't always play with the rules and manipulate situations to suit their needs. Unfortunately this can't be used on a mass scale for obvious reasons. But you can bet if we had 20,000 D-Boys running around Iraq and A-Stan you wouldn't hear a peep from the insurgents.
I dont think that a requisite for a unit to be SF is that there mission parameters must include the breaking of a rule(s) of war. When Delta performs recon, direct action, hostage rescue etc they do not necessarily go outside the bounds of good conduct as we would expect from a 1st world military - they do, however, go outside the bounds of conventional soldiering. The relevant rules in this discussion are those related to conduct of prisoner interrogations anyway - a very calculated and deliberate thing. SpecOps and the Rules of War are not mutually exclusive. :hug:

Absolutely, but I said before that some of those detained militants are hard mo-fo's and Delta's use of methods unauthorized by the Genevea Convention are perhaps the most effective way of extracting information from these individuals who wouldn't talk under other circumstances.

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

Not that I condone what happened at Abu Gharib. (The posed shots remind me more typical of college hazing, the pict with the corpse is just morbid, but then again, I havent seen all the photos to pass more judgement) What everyone is witnessing today is the "golden age" of the Abu Gharib prison itself. What had happened BEFORE the americans were there and what happens AFTER they leave will make what you see today well, ...a typical college hazing.

While the media concentrates on Abu Gharib, it sweeps Nick Berg's murder, the evidence of Sarin gas found/used in Iraq, the U.N. oil-for-food scandal all under the rug. Theres no shortage of cries of Geneva violations while quiet as the enemies commit acts barbarism and are portrayed as victims. The american people can only take so much to where one day, perhaps, would get tired of it and just not care as it is evident we're fighting a "PC" war.

The media also seems to forget the 20+ tons of chemical agents found in Syria heading for the border of Jordan, which would have been this biggest chemical warfare attack to date as far as I know. Either way, well said.

[Trigger]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

[jlanni]

this whole abuse thing is going to far.... its turining in to a "terrorist" hype. where after 9/11 everybody who didnt agree with you was a "terrorist". my opinion is the media needs to get the hell with in its boundarys and shut the hell up. all they are doing is damageing the popular support of the military. and in turn killing the moral in the military which i would imagin is low enough (wouldnt know havent been over there yet). the Abu Gharib prison crap is fine to talk about but delta as other people said "the secret force" pushing it way too far. and being hipocritical about the abuses that the insurgents used? give me a break

[Vance]

Delta? What's that?

[Brozozo]

Delta? What's that?

I don't know, everybody started throwing the term around so I though I might pick up on it, I think it's some airline though...

[talib_killa34]

Delta? What's that?

I don't know, everybody started throwing the term around so I though I might pick up on it, I think it's some airline though...

Delta don't exist.

[Uncle Sam]

I highly doubt "Delta" will be found at fault for anything. These guys are the elite of the elite. Do you seriously think they would jeopardize thier careers for beating on some "detainee", and not following the Geneva Convention?? These are unconventional warriors and I'm sure the people they had under their custody were not there for parking violations!

[Khabbi]

How the heck did anybody find out about this , is there no OPSEC/ Top Secret anymore ? . SFOD-D should be able to operate on the moon without us knowing.

I still think theres a big diff betwen the two prisons , one was run by Idiots and the other by the US top unit , I dont think SFOD-D rounded up farmers and shopowners . They go for the bad guys .

It wont be long befor the press has the names and adresses of every SFOD-D as their next big breakthrough story

:cantbeli:

[pinkeye]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

[Jack Mehoff]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

[budanski]

I still think theres a big diff betwen the two prisons , one was run by Idiots and the other by the US top unit , I dont think SFOD-D rounded up farmers and shopowners . They go for the bad guys .
:cantbeli:

Lets just hope that Rummy Inc. has learned its lesson by not letting a bunch of amateurs in charge interogations of enemy detainees.

[pinkeye]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

some people on this messageboard seem to get the two confused. so who's gonna volunteer to do these ghastly acts? chilling to know depravity and inhumanity are not limited to terrorists.

[Trigger]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

some people on this messageboard seem to get the two confused. so who's gonna volunteer to do these ghastly acts? chilling to know depravity and inhumanity are not limited to terrorists.
Perhaps you'd rather house them in a nice country club that provides for their every need. I mean why have any accountability?
Who's going to volunteer their neighborhood to sponsor this country club?
Chilling to know that ignorance and denial are alive and well on the PC left.

[Jack Mehoff]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

some people on this messageboard seem to get the two confused. so who's gonna volunteer to do these ghastly acts? chilling to know depravity and inhumanity are not limited to terrorists.
Yes, I like to hijack planes full of innocent people and fly them into buildings full of office workers.

[One?]

ex-prisoners on al-jazeera said:

"abu ghraib is nothing compared to <prison name> near the airport".

That was a couple of days ago. But it looks like their story was confirmed!

[pinkeye]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

some people on this messageboard seem to get the two confused. so who's gonna volunteer to do these ghastly acts? chilling to know depravity and inhumanity are not limited to terrorists.
Perhaps you'd rather house them in a nice country club that provides for their every need. I mean why have any accountability?
Who's going to volunteer their neighborhood to sponsor this country club?
Chilling to know that ignorance and denial are alive and well on the PC left.

trigger, what the heck are you talking about out? where does this country club b.s. come from? i question the "fighting fire with fire" approach, which in this context would result in the good guys torturing the "enemy". if you read any of the literature, which clearly you have not, you would know that this approach is doomed to fail in the mid- to long-term. backing up the literature is practical experience. just ask the british, for they have been fighting terrorism longer than anyone.

you inexplicably construe my post to be indicative that the "p.c. left" is soft?! typical ignorant knee-jerk response. if you were anyone else i'd call you a raging dumbass with the intellectual capacity of monkey turds. but i'm attributing this appalling lapse in intelligence to the radiation emanating from your computer. honestly, this is getting ridiculous. if you aren't going to bother posting a response that is intelligent, you should refrain from posting.

[Trident-za]

Not quite sure how to respond to this. On the one hand, these "unconventional" units are filled with tough guys and have a tough job. I'm sure they often get a little.. rough... with guys they capture.

On the other hand, even unconventional forces have to follow some sort of norms of behaviour - if only because its the thing seperating us from the bad guys. I don't accept being "unconventional" as a reason to behave anyway you want... afterall, the insurgents are, by definition, unconventional. The Gestapo and/or SS were also pretty unconventional in their day - does this excuse their actions?

Does the end justify the means? What seperates the good guys and the bad guys, if it isn't behaviour? Does the assumption that our cause is morally superior to that of the terrorists allow us to practise less than morally superior acts, in the name of a just cause?

Judging by some of the above posts, many here think the answer to these questions is straight forward and simple. I'm not so sure...

[pinkeye]

When they sew Nick Berg's head back on and re-animate him, I'll consider following the Geneva convention rules of warfare. 'Til then, moral high ground be damned. Fight fire with fire.

so we should start beheading iraqis?

Correction: beheading terrorists.

some people on this messageboard seem to get the two confused. so who's gonna volunteer to do these ghastly acts? chilling to know depravity and inhumanity are not limited to terrorists.
Yes, I like to hijack planes full of innocent people and fly them into buildings full of office workers.

jack, learn to read. sheesh...

[Trigger]

pinkeye wrote:

trigger, what the heck are you talking about out? where does this country club b.s. come from? i question the "fighting fire with fire" approach, which in this context would result in the good guys torturing the "enemy". if you read any of the literature, which clearly you have not, you would know that this approach is doomed to fail in the mid- to long-term. backing up the literature is practical experience. just ask the british, for they have been fighting terrorism longer than anyone.

you inexplicably construe my post to be indicative that the "p.c. left" is soft?! typical ignorant knee-jerk response. if you were anyone else i'd call you a raging dumbass with the intellectual capacity of monkey turds. but i'm attributing this appalling lapse in intelligence to the radiation emanating from your computer. honestly, this is getting ridiculous. if you aren't going to bother posting a response that is intelligent, you should refrain from posting.
Maybe if the enemy knew that what awaited him was a similar fate to what he so readily dishes out he might have second thoughts. They know we're soft. They know that if we actually applied our might, a few people would get their **** in a wringer and wail from sunup to sunset about American atrocities.
The Brits have been fighting terrorism longer than anyone? No ****. Maybe if they had rolled in in force they'd have been finished fighting it by now.
Your post is indicative of the PC left. It's justified revenge when our buildings get knocked down or when our people have their heads removed and it's an atrocity when we go after those who are responsible.
Just remember who we're fighting. You'll be gurgling on about how ridiculous and un-intelligent the justified use of violence is as your head is being sawn off too.

[Jack Mehoff]

pinkeye, it's laughable to say that your opinion about U.S. will change if we play nice or we don't play nice. What are you going to do? Make more anti-American threads? rofl

[Jack Mehoff]

If anybody in America brutally murder another person like that over here, that guy probably will have a spot reserve for him in the death roll, so what difference does it make if that murderer is a terrorist?

Honestly, I don't give a **** if he's an arab terrorist or a caucasian female American, they all should be shot after what they have done to Nick Berg.

[pinkeye]

pinkeye, it's laughable to say that your opinion about U.S. will change if we play nice or we don't play nice. What are you going to do? Make more anti-American threads? rofl

damn jack, are you that dumb? where is the anti-americanism in my threads? for f%?k's sake, learn to read!!!

[Haiw]

Apart from the whole discussion about what's justified, just one thing that's bugging me; last time I checked CAG weren't prison guards... I mean, since when would a unit like that be used for prisoner interrogation and security and such?!

[Jack Mehoff]

pinkeye, it's laughable to say that your opinion about U.S. will change if we play nice or we don't play nice. What are you going to do? Make more anti-American threads? rofl

damn jack, are you that dumb? where is the anti-americanism in my threads? for f%?k's sake, learn to read!!!

My mistake, you love the Yanks.

[pinkeye]

pinkeye wrote:

trigger, what the heck are you talking about out? where does this country club b.s. come from? i question the "fighting fire with fire" approach, which in this context would result in the good guys torturing the "enemy". if you read any of the literature, which clearly you have not, you would know that this approach is doomed to fail in the mid- to long-term. backing up the literature is practical experience. just ask the british, for they have been fighting terrorism longer than anyone.

you inexplicably construe my post to be indicative that the "p.c. left" is soft?! typical ignorant knee-jerk response. if you were anyone else i'd call you a raging dumbass with the intellectual capacity of monkey turds. but i'm attributing this appalling lapse in intelligence to the radiation emanating from your computer. honestly, this is getting ridiculous. if you aren't going to bother posting a response that is intelligent, you should refrain from posting.
Maybe if the enemy knew that what awaited him was a similar fate to what he so readily dishes out he might have second thoughts. They know we're soft. They know that if we actually applied our might, a few people would get their **** in a wringer and wail from sunup to sunset about American atrocities.
The Brits have been fighting terrorism longer than anyone? No ****. Maybe if they had rolled in in force they'd have been finished fighting it by now.
Your post is indicative of the PC left. It's justified revenge when our buildings get knocked down or when our people have their heads removed and it's an atrocity when we go after those who are responsible.
Just remember who we're fighting. You'll be gurgling on about how ridiculous and un-intelligent the justified use of violence is as your head is being sawn off too.

again, what the hell are you talking about? have i made any statement saying that the use of force cannot be justified? no, i have not. i firmly believe in bombing the **** out of terrorists and i have never said anything to the contrary.

in the context of this thread, some have been arguing in support of abusing the "enemy". i am arguing that we cannot resort to such barbaric activities. i have not stated that force cannot be justified under any circumstances. despite what you may think about how soft lefties are, i can assure you that many of us are quite capable of defending ourselves and, more importantly, our friends and loved ones.

read trident-za's post. have a look at this cartoon. if you want to be just like those bastards that commit unspeakable crimes, stop pretending you are anything but a brute. in your case, a brute behind a keyboard.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8097/war249.gif

[pinkeye]

pinkeye, it's laughable to say that your opinion about U.S. will change if we play nice or we don't play nice. What are you going to do? Make more anti-American threads? rofl

damn jack, are you that dumb? where is the anti-americanism in my threads? for f%?k's sake, learn to read!!!

My mistake, you love the Yanks.

my mistake, thought you had some semblance of intelligence. too many steroids are bad for the brain. on that note, have a good weekend...

[Trigger]

Moderator!
He called me a brute!
I'm all butt-hurt now.


if you want to be just like those bastards that commit unspeakable crimes, stop pretending you are anything but a brute. in your case, a brute behind a keyboard.

:roll:

[Trident-za]

Difficult issue to deal with... lots of different issues raised.


Not that I condone what happened at Abu Gharib. (The posed shots remind me more typical of college hazing, the pict with the corpse is just morbid, but then again, I havent seen all the photos to pass more judgement) What everyone is witnessing today is the "golden age" of the Abu Gharib prison itself. What had happened BEFORE the americans were there and what happens AFTER they leave will make what you see today well, ...a typical college hazing.

While the media concentrates on Abu Gharib, it sweeps Nick Berg's murder, the evidence of Sarin gas found/used in Iraq, the U.N. oil-for-food scandal all under the rug. Theres no shortage of cries of Geneva violations while quiet as the enemies commit acts barbarism and are portrayed as victims. The american people can only take so much to where one day, perhaps, would get tired of it and just not care as it is evident we're fighting a "PC" war.

On an emotional level, I can understand this argument. But, I find the general approach wrong. It's kind of a "well, you caught me smoking crack, but some police officers kill suspects, which is obviously worse, so I'm actually innocent" kind of argument. Obviously opinions differ, but I personally feel this response is bull****. An event is wrong or right on the basis of that event, not what happened earlier/after etc.

The basic worry, for me, is this: we have some arguing we should abandon Geneva Conventions, fight fire with fire etc. etc. So... what is Iraq going to look like in 5 years time? The coalition will still be there (assuming the politicains don't pull them out), but where is this escalating "well, you do this bad thing, so it's OK for me to do this less-bad thing" approach going to take us? Soon, it will be a case of saying gang-raping small children is OK, because the enemy does much worse?

Obviously this is wrong. It has to stop somewhere. Is it easier to stop now, or after we've tried the "eye for an eye" approach for 3 or 4 years? War dehumanizes the combatants, generally (obviously not all combatants, but more than you think). It appears to be dehumanizing the arm-chair warriors these days too.

[henksmoeder]

I'm not saying we drag them in the streets and then BURN the bodies like they do, but yeah, smack 'em around a little. Fight fire with fire, even the bible says "An eye for an eye." Go get 'em CAG.

rofl even the bible says. Using religion to justify it, just like the islamist terrorists.

(BTW, the bible also says: You shall not kill and treat others the same way you want to be treated)

[Trigger]

Trident-za wrote

It has to stop somewhere. Is it easier to stop now, or after we've tried the "eye for an eye" approach for 3 or 4 years? War dehumanizes the combatants, generally (obviously not all combatants, but more than you think). It appears to be dehumanizing the arm-chair warriors these days too.
Well we tried the 'two of our eyes for none of theirs' for 8 years. Look what it got us.

Yeah, God forbid we say something unpopular.

[Haiw]

Yeah, God forbid we say something unpopular.
Actually that's exactely the way it is when you're trying to gain some popularity in the Middle East and trying to stop terrorist recruitment...

[Trigger]

I was referencing the 'armchair warrior' comment. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say Haiw.

[Haiw]

I was referencing the 'armchair warrior' comment. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say Haiw.
Well the 'God forbid we do something unpopular' sounded a lot like the good old 'Boo ****ing hoo we can't bend the rules without getting jumped on' about the prisoner treatment.

[budanski]

On an emotional level, I can understand this argument. But, I find the general approach wrong. It's kind of a "well, you caught me smoking crack, but some police officers kill suspects, which is obviously worse, so I'm actually innocent" kind of argument. Obviously opinions differ, but I personally feel this response is bull****. An event is wrong or right on the basis of that event, not what happened earlier/after etc.

The basic worry, for me, is this: we have some arguing we should abandon Geneva Conventions, fight fire with fire etc. etc. So... what is Iraq going to look like in 5 years time? The coalition will still be there (assuming the politicains don't pull them out), but where is this escalating "well, you do this bad thing, so it's OK for me to do this less-bad thing" approach going to take us? Soon, it will be a case of saying gang-raping small children is OK, because the enemy does much worse?

Obviously this is wrong. It has to stop somewhere. Is it easier to stop now, or after we've tried the "eye for an eye" approach for 3 or 4 years? War dehumanizes the combatants, generally (obviously not all combatants, but more than you think). It appears to be dehumanizing the arm-chair warriors these days too.

For how long do you think the american people will take it? There will come a time when the citizens of this country will just get fed up with the inbalance and see these terrorist as that, barbarians that don't deserve the same rights cause they actually don't abide by it themselves. You can only sit there and take the "oh, were better than them" for so long before you see its not working and take logical steps to fix it. Take for example on how the Brits. fought the American Revolutonary War. The lineups of musket rifles (using a generic term cause i'm not privy to military tactics) were considered a gentlemanly way to wage war. After awhile, theyd have to throw that out of the window and fight guerilla style warfare. Not the greatest example but suffice.

[Seraphim]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4917567

[Seraphim]

Double Post

[duck]

Time to bring on the paramilitary death squads, Brazil/Colombia style?

[Fulix]

I think i just read the most stupid comments in my life...

So many ignorance.

[moughoun]

I think i just read the most stupid comments in my life...

So many ignorance.

Yes

[martinexsquaddie]

well the british could have fought terrorismn better.
what do you suggest protestants in fortified cantons mass expulsions of catholics a heavily mined border, free fire zone in the countryside. Bombing raids on dublin and mineing harbours. plus special forces operating in Boston (few more shootings whose going to notice :roll:).
First principles
the objective a stable democratic Iraq.
The widespread use of tactics that bend the rules of LOAC Don't really help matters.
What's a local to think if being liberated means being tortured by mistake.
The idea that your going to keep abuse of prisoners secret in a world of digital camera's and the internet and a free press is Laughable.
Either we have conduct that tries to live up to our Ideals or we give up claiming any sort of moral high ground

[moughoun]

well the british could have fought terrorismn better.
what do you suggest protestants in fortified cantons mass expulsions of catholics a heavily mined border, free fire zone in the countryside. Bombing raids on dublin and mineing harbours. plus special forces operating in Boston (few more shootings whose going to notice :roll:).
First principles
the objective a stable democratic Iraq.
The widespread use of tactics that bend the rules of LOAC Don't really help matters.
What's a local to think if being liberated means being tortured by mistake.
The idea that your going to keep abuse of prisoners secret in a world of digital camera's and the internet and a free press is Laughable.
Either we have conduct that tries to live up to our Ideals or we give up claiming any sort of moral high ground

Is that me your talking to?, because I aggre with you

[martinexsquaddie]

no the whole score of do whatever it takes to get the job done.
MOm and apple pie Good old boys :roll:.

HELLO its not a hollywood movie.

[Ichhabe]

well the british could have fought terrorismn better.
what do you suggest protestants in fortified cantons mass expulsions of catholics a heavily mined border, free fire zone in the countryside. Bombing raids on dublin and mineing harbours. plus special forces operating in Boston (few more shootings whose going to notice :roll:).
First principles
the objective a stable democratic Iraq.
The widespread use of tactics that bend the rules of LOAC Don't really help matters.
What's a local to think if being liberated means being tortured by mistake.
The idea that your going to keep abuse of prisoners secret in a world of digital camera's and the internet and a free press is Laughable.
Either we have conduct that tries to live up to our Ideals or we give up claiming any sort of moral high ground

I agree with you so much that I could cry. That some of the American forum members can state the things they state on this thread is scary.
For myself: I think I'll never going to say yes again to go out in an operation that is USA-led. I for sure know now that my days are numbered if I would be captured by the enemy. I would have no hope of getting fair treatment.

Well, if that is the way you want it lads; then just go on. I really hope that some of you that never have served, but one day will do so, can face yourself in the mirror if you ever would end up abusing and torturing prisoners. Have a good day.

[Marmot1]

well the british could have fought terrorismn better.
what do you suggest protestants in fortified cantons mass expulsions of catholics a heavily mined border, free fire zone in the countryside. Bombing raids on dublin and mineing harbours. plus special forces operating in Boston (few more shootings whose going to notice :roll:).
First principles
the objective a stable democratic Iraq.
The widespread use of tactics that bend the rules of LOAC Don't really help matters.
What's a local to think if being liberated means being tortured by mistake.
The idea that your going to keep abuse of prisoners secret in a world of digital camera's and the internet and a free press is Laughable.
Either we have conduct that tries to live up to our Ideals or we give up claiming any sort of moral high ground

I agree with you so much that I could cry. That some of the American forum members can state the things they state on this thread is scary.
For myself: I think I'll never going to say yes again to go out in an operation that is USA-led. I for sure know now that my days are numbered if I would be captured by the enemy. I would have no hope of getting fair treatment.

Well, if that is the way you want it lads; then just go on. I really hope that some of you that never have served, but one day will do so, can face yourself in the mirror if you ever would end up abusing and torturing prisoners. Have a good day.

So true, both posts...

There was a joke in poland:

There are two pro american countries in the world - USA and Poland,( but not necesarily in right order)

Since in Poland sympathy for USA was always over 90%.... now it dropped below 50 and is going down... not there is only one proamerican country... USA itself...

Do you guys don't get it???

OK simple explanation:

Terrorist theory:

1USA is evil.
2USA is torturing us.
3USA is kiling us.
4USA say they bring us democray and freedom but in reality they are lying.


And what?

1.YES (general feeleng)
2.YES (Abu gharib)
3.YES (Abu gharib,wedding atack)
4.YES (again abu gharib,and several other ocassions)

conclusin- Terrorist theory is proven by USA conduct... gues what?

If such a guy is released after being tortured he only become more hardcore terrorist and when somebody ask him how he was treated in custody and he would tell that he was tortured does it help to create positive image of USA?

But if he is treated fair in custody then he might think... "Hmm.... maybe USA is not so bad after all,they treated me well not like saddam.

[Argyll]

Too many folks here are getting caught up in sentiment.

Guys it's called Human nature we're not perfect never have been ,never will be..............this so called moral high ground that people keep quoting,is a long lost ideal,every nation in the world has skeletons in their closets sometimes in their back yards,the USA is no different ,why should it be?Because people are blind to the truth sometimes?

Stop bitching for a second and think about the guys in Harms way,whatever Nation they serve....they deserve better

Marmot your theory is flawed

What about the vast number in Al Graib who were treated fairly?

Perhaps you could do some research about it instead of making inocious points........flawed at that

[moughoun]

Ya but then what do we know, we're ultra-leftist, pinko, islamo-facist apologising, tree-hugging, anti-american, anti-semetic,pro-saddam, al`qaida loving idiot's


did I miss any?

[Argyll]

yeah.............gay!! ;)

[moughoun]

yeah.............gay!! ;)

Damn!!

[Marmot1]

yeah.............gay!! ;)

Damn!!

Yeah gay and euro-commie ;)

[Argyll]

I forgot that one Marmot ;)

[Ichhabe]

Argyll said:


Guys it's called Human nature we're not perfect never have been ,never will be..............this so called moral high ground that people keep quoting,is a long lost ideal,every nation in the world has skeletons in their closets sometimes in their back yards,the USA is no different ,why should it be?Because people are blind to the truth sometimes?

I think most of us that have given "negative" comments do very well know that this is Human nature. I do, I can guarantee you that. I am so aware of that is our nature.
But if the socalled "Moral high ground" is lost for us, then I would really prefer that our leaders told us so: But no. They still sit upon the top of that turf and are also "moraly indignated" about what they just "learned".
I would rather be told then that there is a state of Carte Blanche-approach to getting the job done. I can actually live with that, rather than being told that we are supposed to be nice, but at the same time "psychoes" are lurking in the dark, doing their dirty job for "us".

I am also truly aware about that every nation have their skeletons that they want to hide, even my country.


Stop bitching for a second and think about the guys in Harms way,whatever Nation they serve....they deserve better

No, I wount stop bitching. Because I have been in that Harms way. And I one day migh go out there in the Harms way again. But I wount go if my leaders lie to me, then I rather stay home. Because, I can stand a lot of ****, but not being lied to.

What seems to be forgotten here is that We are supposed to be better than them. As it is now, we are not. That is so sad.

[moughoun]

Wow these pink leather underpant's with Lenin on them are really cheaffing

[2RHPZ]

Another article on this story:

Pentagon investigates claims that élite Delta Force abused detainees
By Andrew Buncombe in Washington

23 May 2004

The investigation into the torture and mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners has been extended to include allegations that the US army's élite Delta Force was involved in some of the worst abuses carried out by American troops.
Reports say the Pentagon's inspector general is investigating the alleged abuse, said to have taken place at a secretive detention camp, or Battlefield Interrogation Facility, near Baghdad airport, known simply as the BIF.
If the allegations are true they would further rock the Bush administration and shock the US public, already reeling from the seemingly endless stream of photographs and witness statements detailing widespread abuse of prisoners at the notorious Abu Ghraib jail and elsewhere in Iraq. The covert Delta Force, known for its use in special operations and rescue missions, is the equivalent of Britain's SAS and is a source of pride to many Americans.
The Pentagon has declined to comment on the allegations, but according to two senior US officials quoted by the NBC television network, the Delta Force facility is the scene of "the most egregious violations" of the Geneva Conventions in all of Iraq's US-run prisons. It is not known whether the facility is still operating.
The officials said that from the moment the prisoners enter the BIF they are hooded and kept in tiny cells. In the six interrogation rooms, the special forces soldiers routinely drug prisoners, hold a prisoner under water until he thinks he is drowning or smother him almost to the point of suffocation.
The US Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, has said that while Washington does not believe the Geneva Conventions apply to stateless terrorists such as al-Qa'ida, prisoners from the war in Iraq are considered to be prisoners of war.
The new revelation emerged as the Pentagon announced it was investigating the deaths of at least nine more prisoners, bringing to 37 the number it has looked into in Iraq and Afghanistan. It said the deaths were being treated as homicides, which meant someone else was involved in the prisoners' deaths.
A 10th prisoner death has already been resolved. A soldier shot and killed a prisoner in Iraq who threw rocks at him in September 2003. The soldier was punished and dismissed from the Army.
Among the causes of death attributed to the nine new cases are "'blunt force injuries and asphyxia", ''asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression" and "multiple gunshot wounds".
One of the deaths being investigated is that of Major General Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former commander of Saddam Hussein's air defences, who died in November 2003 during interrogation. It is understood his death, attributed to ''asphyxia due to smothering and chest compression", involved a CIA interrogator.
Of the 37 deaths that have been looked into, 32 took place in Iraq and five in Afghanistan. Some date back to August 2002. Most of the detainees died inside detention facilities, and around half of the deaths have been attributed to natural causes.

[Argyll]

Argyll said:


Guys it's called Human nature we're not perfect never have been ,never will be..............this so called moral high ground that people keep quoting,is a long lost ideal,every nation in the world has skeletons in their closets sometimes in their back yards,the USA is no different ,why should it be?Because people are blind to the truth sometimes?

I think most of us that have given "negative" comments do very well know that this is Human nature. I do, I can guarantee you that. I am so aware of that is our nature.
But if the socalled "Moral high ground" is lost for us, then I would really prefer that our leaders told us so: But no. They still sit upon the top of that turf and are also "moraly indignated" about what they just "learned".
I would rather be told then that there is a state of Carte Blanche-approach to getting the job done. I can actually live with that, rather than being told that we are supposed to be nice, but at the same time "psychoes" are lurking in the dark, doing their dirty job for "us".

I am also truly aware about that every nation have their skeletons that they want to hide, even my country.


Stop bitching for a second and think about the guys in Harms way,whatever Nation they serve....they deserve better

No, I wount stop bitching. Because I have been in that Harms way. And I one day migh go out there in the Harms way again. But I wount go if my leaders lie to me, then I rather stay home. Because, I can stand a lot of ****, but not being lied to.

What seems to be forgotten here is that We are supposed to be better than them. As it is now, we are not. That is so sad.

Interesting,you quote you will refuse to serve if you're lied to?Does this mean you'll become a conciencious objector?So you're more likely to stay at home whilst others around you are sent in Harms way?
If Soldiers had the choice of listening to Politicians and some Generals,half of them would also say "Fu*k it,we're not going.....he's a lying bast*rd".....but most Armed Forces I know they do not have a choice in the matter............they go because they're ordered to,not because they want to.

All Leading Politicians lie.................it's their nature to do so,it's the nature of Politics,and if they're lying,how does that reflect on the rest of society?
Either we choose to believe or not believe..........Soldiers ans Armed Services don't have that luxury......well not in My country anyway.

[Ichhabe]

Well, I had that luxury. When I had my tour to Kosovo, the Army phoned home to me and asked if I wanted to go. I said yes, because I found it was a just cause. Again, when I had my tour to Afghanistan, they again phoned to my home and asked if I would fall in. Even though I wasn't the most supporter of American foreign policy, I again said yes. But if they call me now and ask if I want to go to Iraq: I would say no. Amen.

[Argyll]

Well, I had that luxury. When I had my tour to Kosovo, the Army phoned home to me and asked if I wanted to go. I said yes, because I found it was a just cause. Again, when I had my tour to Afghanistan, they again phoned to my home and asked if I would fall in. Even though I wasn't the most supporter of American foreign policy, I again said yes. But if they call me now and ask if I want to go to Iraq: I would say no. Amen.

Is this a general procedure in Norway Mate?
But I hear what you're saying......it was not meant to be offensive,at the end of the day you must go with your principles and also gut instinct.
Is it likely that Norwegian troops will see deployment to Iraq?

[Ichhabe]

Well, I had that luxury. When I had my tour to Kosovo, the Army phoned home to me and asked if I wanted to go. I said yes, because I found it was a just cause. Again, when I had my tour to Afghanistan, they again phoned to my home and asked if I would fall in. Even though I wasn't the most supporter of American foreign policy, I again said yes. But if they call me now and ask if I want to go to Iraq: I would say no. Amen.

Is this a general procedure in Norway Mate?
But I hear what you're saying......it was not meant to be offensive,at the end of the day you must go with your principles and also gut instinct.
Is it likely that Norwegian troops will see deployment to Iraq?

As you know, we have conscription in Norway. Up to 1995, all military served on UN- or NATO-missions was done by soldiers who volountered for that service. So to go abroad, you voulenteer, and are being trained for that spesific mission. After that mission, or your contract is over(usually a 6 months contract) you go home. In 1995, Norway tried with little sucsess to form a battalion of professional soldiers that failed. A long story, wount come in to it now.

So, in 2000 due to lack of personell, the Army called me cause I was on some list saying I might say yes if asked in a "time of need". I was like a super-reserve.
In 2002, my CO to be, knew about my knowledge upon mines and explosives, and my dedication toward such work. So they phoned me again because of the sort of expertise I had was not so widespread in the Kingdom. Of course I said yes.

Today we again have a batalion-sized force of voulenteers called Telemark-bataljonen with soldiers in different Task-Forces ready to go on a short notice. By the way, the Norwegian soldier killed in Kabul, Afghanistan was in that batalion.(Telemark Task Force)

And there is a Norwegian Engineer Company stationed down in Basra, Iraq under British comand. But they due to go home in the end of June, when the Iraqis are supposed to take over again. They probably be deployed to either Afghanistan after a short rest, or may end up in Sudan. Only time will show.

[Argyll]

Interesting stuff. ;)

[jizzmonkey]

I Reeeeeeally hate to addmit it, but yeah, if they did violate the LOLWF then some "Sconion" is in order, I'm all about smacking some "dune-dikes" around, but the fact of the matter is once the flexie-cuffs are on its over for us, let the interogaters take it from there, we start breaking the rules for our own vendettas, and we open a can of worms meant to stay on the shelf.

its all about profesionalism

thats not to say they dont get scuffed up on the way to briggs!

oops, was that your head??? sorry about that!

I'll have enough emotional baggage after iraq, we tag and bag em, let god and the CIA sort them out, I dont want more screwed up **** on my PTSD!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

its all about profesionalism
True so the following term would not be very professional.

"dune-dikes"
:|