Xenophobia at the Heart of German Politics

[emiljoe]

Xenophobia at the Heart of German Politics



http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,526236,00.html

A German state governor has won applause from fellow conservatives for demanding a crackdown on "criminal young foreigners." Immigrant groups and political rivals say he is playing with fire in a debate that reveals the widespread xenophobia obstructing integration in Germany.
An assault by two foreign youths on a German pensioner has triggered conservative calls for a crackdown on "criminal young foreigners" and exposed deeply entrenched xenophobia that casts doubt on this country's ability ever to fully integrate its 15 million inhabitants with an immigrant background.




he 76-year-old pensioner suffered a fractured skull when he was beaten by a 20-year-old Turkish man born in Germany and a 17-year-old immigrant from Greece on December 20 after he asked them to stop smoking on a subway train in Munich, where smoking is forbidden.
The pensioner recovered after a spell in hospital and recalls how they spat at him and called him a "**** German" before kicking him in the head. Police arrested the attackers shortly afterwards and the case could have been closed as a cowardly assault by two violent criminals who both have long police records.
But a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats, Hesse state premier Roland Koch (more...) (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,525734,00.html), seized on the fact that the attackers weren't German and decided to launch a debate about foreign criminals.
"How much are we prepared to take from a small proportion of violent youths, who frequently have a foreign background?" Koch, who is struggling in his campaign to win a third term in a state election on January 27, told mass circulation Bild Zeitung in an interview published last Friday.
"We have spent too long showing a strange sociological understanding for groups that consciously commit violence as ethnic minorities," he went on.
How to Behave in a Civilized Country
"People who live in Germany must behave properly and refrain from using their fists. That's how one behaves in a civilized country," said Koch, apparently implying that your average immigrant isn't from a country as civilized as Germany, which has seen a series of vicious assaults (more...) (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,502187,00.html) by neo-Nazis on ethnic minorities in recent years.

REPRINTS

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,798728,00.gif (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,460322,00.html)
Find out how you can reprint this SPIEGEL ONLINE article in your publication. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,460322,00.html)


Koch added that Germany wasn't a classic country of immigration such as Canada or Australia. "In our country we don't get many cultures meeting to form a new one. Germany has had a Christian-Occidental culture for centuries. Foreigners who don't stick to our rules don't belong here." His quote "We have too many criminal young foreigners" made a banner front-page headline in Bild on Friday. The paper praised him in an editorial on Wednesday, writing: "At last our politicians are quarrelling about the really important issues -- the safety of our citizens! Fear of crime and violence by foreign criminals has been accompanying us on bus and subway journeys for a long time."
Koch's comments fuelled conservative calls for "foreign" criminals to be expelled from Germany and were echoed by Volker Kauder, head of the conservative parliamentary group in the federal parliament and a close ally of Merkel.
Kauder told "Bild am Sonntag" that crime by foreigners had "been a taboo in Germany" for too long. "We need education camps for hard cases, closed institutions with an overall concept for therapy. Foreigners aren't our enemies, but criminals are -- and we can no longer afford to accept their mocking laughter."
Born in Germany But Foreigners for Life
Representatives from ethnic minorities say Koch's comments reveal a key obstacle to integration in Germany. People living here are still widely labelled "foreigners" even if they were born in Germany, even if they have German passports, and especially if they are dark-skinned.
Conservative politicians have been citing police statistics showing that a high proportion of young offenders are from immigrant backgrounds. Rather than discuss the causes of crime, they have been calling for such offenders to be expelled from the country.
Kenan Kolat, chairman of the Turkish Community in Germany, a group campaigning for immigrant rights, said Koch was committing "political arson."
"He is threatening social peace and is acting against the national interest of Germany by obstructing the future of this country," Kolat told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "It's a fundamental problem that people born in this country are still regarded as foreigners, and this situation is being abused by politicians.
"People who commit crimes here are products of this society and we have to deal with these problems here. As long as we keep distinguishing people by their origin we expose them to stigmatization," he continued.
"Some 40 percent of people under 25 will be of non-German ethnic origin in 30 years. If these young people come to the conclusion that they don't really belong here and may be expelled, they won't develop any bonds with this country."
DITIB, an umbrella group representing Turks and Muslims in Germany, told SPIEGEL ONLINE: "The majority of 'foreign youth' is just as peaceful or violent as young German people. The small percentage difference can be attributed to the lack of equal opportunities. Our concept for integration is equal opportunities in education and the workplace."
Winning Votes By Attacking Immigration
Criticizing immigration can be a vote-winner in Germany. Koch has successfully tapped the issue before, winning a 1999 state election after he launched a petition against government plans to introduce dual citizenship for foreign citizens living in Germany.



The current conservative premier of North Rhine-Westphalia, Jürgen Rüttgers, launched a campaign in 2000 against proposed 'green cards' for Indian software engineers. The slogan of his campaign to give precedence to homegrown talent over skilled foreign workers was "Kinder Statt Inder" -- "Children Instead of Indians." In many other Western countries, a slogan like that from a mainstream politician would have killed off his career. Yet Rüttgers now runs Germany's most populous state.
Merkel herself suggested in a party conference speech last month that mosque minarets should be no higher than church steeples, following local resistance in several German cities to the construction of new mosques.
Half a century ago, Germany invited hundreds of thousands of foreign "guest workers" from Turkey and Italy. They helped rebuild the country after the war. Many of them stayed. People with an immigrant background make up just under 20 percent of the population. Yet immigrants are conspicuous by their absence from civil service jobs, the police force, corporate management. With a few exceptions, they are not present in broadcast news and the media (more...) (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,455751,00.html).
In eastern Germany, the anti-immigrant National Democrat Party (more...) (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,502487,00.html) has won enough votes to enter the state assembly in two of five states. Anti-far right campaigners have warned that large parts of the former communist east are effectively no-go areas for anyone who doesn't look German.
"Especially in light of growing right-wing extremism, anti-Semitism and growing hostility to Islam in Germany and elsewhere it's high time to work towards equality for all citizens in Germany," said DITIB. "We are worried about recent political statements and believe this won't do anything to weaken the extremists."
Social Democrats Slam "Brutal Populism"
The center-left Social Democrats have attacked Koch's remarks, with Vice Chancellor Frank-Walter Steinmeier accusing him "of the most brutal populism." Justice Minister Brigitte Zypries, a member of the SPD, said existing laws to combat youth crime were tough enough.
Yet Merkel has refrained from criticizing Koch, mindful of opinion polls showing that he may lose Hesse on January 27. Instead, her spokesman Ullrich Wilhelm declared that she wants a debate on tougher punishment for young offenders.
"We had hoped Merkel would intervene," said Kolat. "No one should be allowed to endanger social peace in this way and we don't need this populism." By saying that Germany is not a country of immigration, Koch is simply ignoring the facts, said Kolat.
As the debate about "foreign criminals" rages on, calls for tough action to stop assaults by far-right youths on immigrants have abated following some widely reported attacks by neo-Nazis last year.
Little attention was given in the press to an assault by 15 far-right youths on an Afghan family of five in the Berlin district of Lichtenberg on New Year's Eve. The Afghans were setting off fireworks when the gang attacked them with sticks, but managed to escape into their apartment to ring in a happy New Year in Germany.

[dimasorokine]

Better integration of immigrants needs to be implemented in Europe, either that or the borders need to be closed.

-Dima

[Sato]

Better integration of immigrants needs to be implemented in Europe, either that or the borders need to be closed.

-Dima

How would you define "integrated" ?

[JoaMei]

Well this topic was always a big taboo here, but fact is the 8,8% foreigners of the Population make 30% of all crimes (Especcially violent crimes, murder, rape). This is NOT including those who already have a german passport.

The problem is not specially related to foreigners, the problem is the very soft approach on youth crime here. The 20 year old turk had a criminal record of 41 crimes and was never really punished. The greek has commited about 20 crimes and also was never punished. And those are only the crimes they were convicted for or are known. The did much more pretty sure.
They pretty much get away with everything, an because of that they get more and more agressive and criminal because they dont have to fear punishment.

As disgusting as neonazi attacks are, there are only few every year and they get giant media attention. The thousands of violent attacks by foreigners on Germans every year, mostly because "you looked at them the wrong way" are of much larger dimension and dont get media attention at all. They are seen as normal.

[muck]

I agree with JoaMei there. However he missed to add an even more shocking figure, that more than 60% of all violent youth crimes are committed by foreigners under 18 years of age.
Prime Minister Koch is just seizing what is supported by many, even by many foreigners: A tightening of the ridiculously soft German youth penalty code under which even a 21 years old culprit can fall. He is planning a tightening which of course would apply for anyone regardless of his descent, race or whatsoever else.
Koch's opponents in the upcoming state election just fear to become toppled by his proposals and therefore stage a public outcry, it is that simple.
Integration issues may be a reason for an increase of crime among foreigners, there is no doubt about that. Though it is still up to any individual to decide what is right and what is wrong. Especially among foreigners it is a cool 'item' to have been in jail before - what is only bearable for them because their sentences mostly have little relation to the crimes they've committed.
My personal favourites:
Eastern German city of Chemnitz, 2005: A 15 years old youth of Lebanese descent rapes a 23 years old woman on her way home. She becomes pregnant. Later he will be identified by his DNS. His sentence: 7 months in prison. His plea: He had been frustrated because his girlfriend did not want to sleep with him. After three months he is granted early parole after he has agreed to serve several hundred 'public service hours'.
Berlin, 2004: A 19 years old German asks a group of other passengers in a subway train to turn down the sound of their handy. They insult him, and don't react to his polite request. Later this evening they follow him to his home and stabb him to death. The judge 'recognizes' in the following trial that their reaction would have to be traced back to their southern descent. Their sentence: 29 months in prison each.
Eastern German village of Tessin, 2007: Two 17-years old teenagers kill the parents of their friend with 120 stabs with a knife and take a girl as hostage. Their reason for the bloodshed: They had wanted to see how it looks like when a person dies. Their sentence: 9 years in prison, early parole could be granted after 4 served years.Social rehabilitation is one thing, but the attempt to rehabilitate a 15 years old boy with 30 previous convictions is wasted time and money. Other countries also deport reoffending foreigners, so why should German authorities not do that?

[dimasorokine]

How would you define "integrated" ?

It’s more of a question on how it shouldn't be defined. For one, I wouldn't allow large ethnic enclaves where immigrants have zero chance of integrating into society and adapting European culture to form...these people need to be spread among the "native" population. How do you expect an average Turk to adapt German culture and values when he lives in little Turkey?

If you must have ghettos, reduce their size drastically and spread them throughout the city. I believe the actual locations of the immigrants have a vital part to play in the way they are seen and interact with the native citizens of the country.

-Dima

[Wall]

So xenophobia = accept the facts?

[JJC]

Eastern German city of Chemnitz, 2005: A 15 years old youth of Lebanese descent rapes a 23 years old woman on her way home. She becomes pregnant. Later he will be identified by his DNS. His sentence: 7 months in prison. His plea: He had been frustrated because his girlfriend did not want to sleep with him. After three months he is granted early parole after he has agreed to serve several hundred 'public service hours'.
Berlin, 2004: A 19 years old German asks a group of other passengers in a subway train to turn down the sound of their handy. They insult him, and don't react to his polite request. Later this evening they follow him to his home and stabb him to death. The judge 'recognizes' in the following trial that their reaction would have to be traced back to their southern descent. Their sentence: 29 months in prison each.
Eastern German village of Tessin, 2007: Two 17-years old teenagers kill the parents of their friend with 120 stabs with a knife and take a girl as hostage. Their reason for the bloodshed: They had wanted to see how it looks like when a person dies. Their sentence: 9 years in prison, early parole could be granted after 4 served years. Life is very cheap in that country I see. At least I'll know that if some savage stabs me to death he'll serve a little more than 29 months here in the U.S. even in the most liberal states.

[LineDoggie]

So a Turk and a Greek both can agree on something afterall?

[Wall]

Sadly Germany isn't only country what protects criminals. :cantbeli:

[Nansouty]

What does it mean about Germany's EU commitment? I thought they were calling for more integration. And Greece, IIRC, is already a member of the EU...

[Xaito]

For one, I wouldn't allow large ethnic enclaves where immigrants have zero chance of integrating into society and adapting European culture to form...these people need to be spread among the "native" population. How do you expect an average Turk to adapt German culture and values when he lives in little Turkey?

If you must have ghettos, reduce their size drastically and spread them throughout the city. I believe the actual locations of the immigrants have a vital part to play in the way they are seen and interact with the native citizens of the country.

-Dima

I agree - but you can't really forbid people with foreign background to live where they want - you'd get a bigger public outcry because of "racism", lack of freedom and probably some trouble with the constitution.

Germany gives anybody the chance and a helping hand to integrate - I know it from my own experience - but not everybody uses this chance.
I've seen lots of both though - Russian and turkish ghettos but also integrated people - I was surprised how many Russians are studying at our local university - probably 1/4 of the students in my computer engineering lectures are from Russia and Kazakhstan (one with a background of 8 years service in the Bundeswehr).

[PANKRASTIS]

So a Turk and a Greek both can agree on something afterall?

But was he true Greek, or one of the many immagrants who travel through Greece to get to Europe, there been over 1 million recongnised Greeks of immigrant descent now in a country of only 11 million people, and at least
another 500,000 illegals.

Not to say its not possible, but Greece's jails offcial figures indicate that 60% of the imprissoned population are non-Greeks, at all & roughly 71% of all violent offenes are committed by non-Greeks, or immigrants to Greece.

It is, unfortunetly a Europe wide problem, and all europeans are suffering are subjet to the same fear, and angst at their political & law enforcement representatives who seem unnable to halt or even stabalize the problem.

[Vandervahn]

The problem is real, that specific state premier Roland Koch however has a history of sniping at foreigner issues before elections, and especially now that his "carreer star" is on the descent. He is also a convicted liar and most probably broke party laws... which of course makes him the ideal "ugly German" for the SPIEGEL magazine.

[tsuri]

What does it mean about Germany's EU commitment? I thought they were calling for more integration. And Greece, IIRC, is already a member of the EU...

Nothing. They want to throw out the violent Turk and not the Greek as he has a legal right to stay here.

The sad thing is that the perpretrators have shown no remorse and even complained that they hurt their feet when they kicked the old man's head.

We should definetly remove all non-european citizens from Germany if they have repedeatly commitet violent crimes. A foreign criminal is not in the responsibility of the German tax payer.

And I definetly love the criticism that pops up every time

Rather than discuss the causes of crime, they have been calling for such offenders to be expelled from the country.
What are the causes? Immigrants that reject German society fail left and right and turn into constantly umeployed juvenile delinquents, while those that get their act together and learn German lead very productive lives and have definetly earned their place.

[kosse]

It’s more of a question on how it shouldn't be defined. For one, I wouldn't allow large ethnic enclaves where immigrants have zero chance of integrating into society and adapting European culture to form...these people need to be spread among the "native" population. How do you expect an average Turk to adapt German culture and values when he lives in little Turkey?

If you must have ghettos, reduce their size drastically and spread them throughout the city. I believe the actual locations of the immigrants have a vital part to play in the way they are seen and interact with the native citizens of the country.
-Dima

Like Susumu said it would break their freedoms and therefore cannot be done. In Finland we've tried to spread them across the country but they always seem to concgregate in poorest parts of Helsinki and other big cities.

As for spreading them around in cities..do you think that native people will accept it if they are given expensive homes in expensive parts of the city that native people have worked their ass off to be able to buy? No, they'll have to start from cheap rent flats just like everyone else..

Btw. Some statistic from Finland: 2,2% of the population are foreigners and they commit 27% of the rapes (2005). Now if we'd include the immigrants who have already gotten citizenship or born in Finland I wonder what would happen to those numbers..

All in all, this is not going to end pretty. It's going to be messy and I hope I don't have to see that day but at this rate I fear I will.

[RS_Leo1A5]

Life is very cheap in that country I see. At least I'll know that if some savage stabs me to death he'll serve a little more than 29 months here in the U.S. even in the most liberal states.
The point is that in these cases the offenders were - due to their age - sentenced under the Jugendstrafrecht (youth penalty code) whose maximum sentence possible is 5 years jail (10 years in especially severe cases, see the 9 years sentence in example #3).
The youth penalty code is intended for offenders aged 14-18 (under 14 is considered to young to be punishable) but is often - for lesser crimes - used for offenders aged 18-21 as well.

[kosse]

Have you noticed how strange it is that we seem to have some kind of collective guilt all over the Europe that inhibits us from acting to curb the problems like this with real measures. We always try to play down the troubles or find fault in ourselves when clearly that is not the case. Is it Germany's WW2 history or white man's guilt dating from colonial times that haunts us or something else? People are too afraid to say anything lest they be branded as racists and media does it's best to whitewash or hide all negative aspects that are related to immigration.

[KoTeMoRe]

Like Susumu said it would break their freedoms and therefore cannot be done. In Finland we've tried to spread them across the country but they always seem to concgregate in poorest parts of Helsinki and other big cities.

As for spreading them around in cities..do you think that native people will accept it if they are given expensive homes in expensive parts of the city that native people have worked their ass off to be able to buy? No, they'll have to start from cheap rent flats just like everyone else..

Btw. Some statistic from Finland: 2,2% of the population are foreigners and they commit 27% of the rapes (2005). Now if we'd include the immigrants who have already gotten citizenship or born in Finland I wonder what would happen to those numbers..

All in all, this is not going to end pretty. It's going to be messy and I hope I don't have to see that day but at this rate I fear I will.

With a half decent housing policy you could build less expensive projects in posh neighbourhoods. But the way you look at it, it seems a merely defensive indifference can save the day.

As for criminality...the issue is way beyond the ethnic lines in Europe, only Finland seems to differ from the rule. In most of Europe,first generation Foreign residents are mostly versed in petty criminality and partly in drug dealing ("soft drugs"), allochtones (second gen and beyond) a bit deeper in criminality, but a quarter of the rapes wow.

Going to check that.

Mhh I don't know what you're babling about, but at least in Western Europe the papers are full with typical allochtone crime news (see the latest French Presidential Campaigns as an example). So the whole media bogus seems so passe, and so Reaganian.

[kosse]

With a half decent housing policy you could build less expensive projects in posh neighbourhoods. But the way you look at it, it seems a merely defensive indifference can save the day.

Afaik all housing in Finland is decent. There is cheaper housing (=rent flats) available also in "better" neighbourhoods but for some reason the immigrants seem to pile up in the same suburbs.



Mhh I don't know what you're babling about, but at least in Western Europe the papers are full with typical allochtone crime news (see the latest French Presidential Campaigns as an example). So the whole media bogus seems so passe, and so Reaganian.Maybe it's just a Finnish thing. Some big newspapers like Helsingin Sanomat are very careful not to report crimes where immigrants are the perpetrators or they just leave out that the perpetrator wasn't a finn. But if a finn does something that involves immigrants the headlines are always huge and they make sure that everyone knows that an evil racist finn did something to an immigrant. Never the other way around.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Afaik all housing in Finland is decent. There is cheaper housing (=rent flats) available also in "better" neighbourhoods but for some reason the immigrants seem to pile up in the same suburbs.

Maybe it's just a Finnish thing. Some big newspapers like Helsingin Sanomat are very careful not to report crimes where immigrants are the perpetrators or they just leave out that the perpetrator wasn't a finn. But if a finn does something that involves immigrants the headlines are always huge and they make sure that everyone knows that an evil racist finn did something to an immigrant. Never the other way around.
Immigrants will go where their social network is there to support them, especially true for first generation immigrants. And transplanting immigrants in neighborhoods where "natives" live sounds great in theory but in practice only means destroying those native neighborhoods over time. Sooner or later the natives start moving away and more immigrants move in... either that or the transplanted immigrants move away when they can achieve no foothold in the new area.

As far as press reports, Germany follows a similar policy as Finland.

Germans beat up a foreigner: national news.

Foreigners beat up a German, which happens much much more often: hush hush.

[KoTeMoRe]

Afaik all housing in Finland is decent. There is cheaper housing (=rent flats) available also in "better" neighbourhoods but for some reason the immigrants seem to pile up in the same suburbs.

Maybe it's just a Finnish thing. Some big newspapers like Helsingin Sanomat are very careful not to report crimes where immigrants are the perpetrators or they just leave out that the perpetrator wasn't a finn. But if a finn does something that involves immigrants the headlines are always huge and they make sure that everyone knows that an evil racist finn did something to an immigrant. Never the other way around.

Baltic-Russian Criminality as "high" as it used to be in the late 90's? As for the "clogging" well that might have to do with an improper selection at the entry. No disrespect meant to the said communities in MP.net.

Despite being at the left, I can't get the whole point of letting people, that don't speak the native language or any lingua franca, in like that. And it is sadly an All European issue.

I mean brotherhood, mkay, but not when your "brother" hates you, now when the said brother has the citizenship or nationality, things get seriously fudged.

BiV: For some reason I have real difficulties believing you, especially with a 80+ million total population. No offence intended. Especially when you have der Speigel or Zeit working for the cause.

[muck]

Germans beat up a foreigner: national news.
Foreigners beat up a German, which happens much much more often: hush hush.
It is indeed that simple.
The crime statistic speaks volumes about the plain truth. According to the official crime statistic, in the last year 6.304.223 crimes of all kind were committed in Germany, with registered 1.780.090 culprits of German nationality, from which at least 200.000 were foreign nationals with German passports, and 503.037 culprits of foreign nationality, whilst a sixth of that number wasn't legal to be in Germany.
6.755.881 foreigners live in Germany and 75.495.189 Germans. That means that 30.7% of all crimes were committed by 8.9% of the population. Persons belonging to these 8.9 percent furthermore committed 26.9% of all murders and manslaughters in total, 20.1% of all rapes, 27.9% of all burglarys and 26.4% of all batterys. In turn that means that 6.7 million foreigners committ as many crimes as about 20.5 million Germans.
To point this situation out should not be regarded as racism, but not to do so should be regarded as stupidity.
I don't care about the reputation of Prime Minister Koch's election campaign. He pushed Hessia forward and reestablished his state among the leading states in this nation.
Again, I don't deny that the latest crime issue is connected with homegrown integration problems because Chancellor Kohl had ignored the debate for 16 years. However, the party of Koch's opponents, the SPD, worsened all during their seven years of Chancellorship. In his past term, Koch was able to decrease the crime rate at 25%, so it is nothing to wonder about that he again picks up that issue to win the elections. Andrea Ypsilanti, his rival candidate, is just afraid he might win another term if you ask me.

[KoTeMoRe]

It is indeed that simple.
The crime statistic speaks volumes about the plain truth. According to the official crime statistic, in the last year 6.304.223 crimes of all kind were committed in Germany, with registered 1.780.090 culprits of German nationality, from which at least 200.000 were foreign nationals with German passports, and 503.037 culprits of foreign nationality, whilst a sixth of that number wasn't legal to be in Germany.
6.755.881 foreigners live in Germany and 75.495.189 Germans. That means that 30.7% of all crimes were committed by 8.9% of the population. Persons belonging to these 8.9 percent furthermore committed 26.9% of all murders and manslaughters in total, 20.1% of all rapes, 27.9% of all burglarys and 26.4% of all batterys. In turn that means that 6.7 million foreigners committ as many crimes as about 20.5 million Germans.
To point this situation out should not be regarded as racism, but not to do so should be regarded as stupidity.
I don't care about the reputation of Prime Minister Koch's election campaign. He pushed Hessia forward and reestablished his state among the leading states in this nation.
Again, I don't deny that the latest crime issue is connected with homegrown integration problems because Chancellor Kohl had ignored the debate for 16 years. However, the party of Koch's opponents, the SPD, worsened all during their seven years of Chancellorship. In his past term, Koch was able to decrease the crime rate at 25%, so it is nothing to wonder about that he again picks up that issue to win the elections. Andrea Ypsilanti, his rival candidate, is just afraid he might win another term if you ask me.


Methodology helps. 8.9 percent of your population is of foreign origin. Yet only 700 000 of these "foreigners" have comitted crimes or have been involved in criminal activity. Not mentioning 200 000 are technically German (allochtones).

Not the almost 7 million. Think again, then you know what. In parallel less than 12% of the foreigners are criminals, yet they seem to do the same amount of damage than the germans.

They dont seem worse. In terms of "productivity" less germans -2% of the german population (in the alochtone-free scenario) seem to do far more damage than +10% of the foreign bunch. This means Criminally wise german criminals are worse than their foreign counterpart...

Briefly put, 1 "immigrant" does 1 crime. 1 german criminal does 5 (simplification).:roll:

Very good indeed. I see generalisation is your forte countrary to elementary mathematics.

[toki]

What does it mean about Germany's EU commitment? I thought they were calling for more integration. And Greece, IIRC, is already a member of the EU...
[generalization]
Erh, this guy was Greek. OK, but i will step up and say i have never had any violent run in with a Greek in Germany. I had it with most other ethnicities though, when i was younger.

I know many Turks and Greeks also as friends, but the more violent here are the Turks (and the Russians). [generalization/]

Seriously: This is hardly disputed with Turkish friends i have. The problem is the youth in general and that they always get away with it.

Those little wannabe Mobsters are of different origins (German, Polish, Turkish, Morrocan, Russian etc. and are really mixing up). Only one thing in common: Young, not so wealthy, rude, offensive, criminal, violent and barely punished in their lives. Btw if seomeone wants to play the religion card: It is less important, as seen in this case. They are bonding for different reasons. Though, if there are Germans involved they are often times mixing up with immigrants.


In my eyes it's more a youth problem and a lack of punishment.

Maybe it's a bit like the Chav problem in the UK. General disrespect and violence and lack of common sense.

For some odd reason though i'm still surprised of the Greek.

[Kitsune]

There is no denying it: there is xenophobia in Germany. But let's keep in mind that the overall process of immigration isn't an easy one, especially if one considers that Germany has until recently not been an immigration country and one with only a very limited colonial history at that. In other nations sucessful immigration did alos not happen from one day to the next, after all. How long has American society needed to accept black, yellow or red people as full citizens who are as much Americans and as the white guys? Easily a hundred years. And with Ku Klux Clan and all, If I may add.

In any case, the successful integration of foreigners will be essential for Germany's future. Regarding this, I do not think that it would be wise to go the way of a so called "multicultural society". I think that two things are important: firstly, that we do emphazise a certain national identity to which immigrants have to adapt, after all, if they do not like it they don't have to come. It would be disastrous if, for example, Italians would mostly live in their own Little Italy, the Chinese in a Chinatown and the Turks in a turkish Ghetto, all alienated from the rest of society and feeling like foreigners only living in Germany. But at the same time it is most important that those immigrants who do adapt know that they will eventually be fully accepted as Germans, no matter where they come from or what they look like. In other words, it has to be accepted by everyone that to be German is a matter of ones mind and not of the color of ones skin or of the shape of ones eyes.

It is true that German society is not there yet, but it is clearly on the way. The article above seems to exaggerate the problems a bit, at least from my viewpoint. In the streets of Bonn and Cologne you see people with a "migration background" all the time, in all shapes and colors: brown, black, yellow and what not. And they seem neither to be especially poor or especially ****e to violence (that is, not more than the honkeys among us). Most speak German very well, some without any accent (or even with the local accent), they seem to have work, own shops and are normal citizens like anyone else. I really do not have the impression that integration isn't happening in Germany.

[kosse]

Methodology helps. 8.9 percent of your population is of foreign origin. Yet only 700 000 of these "foreigners" have comitted crimes or have been involved in criminal activity. Not mentioning 200 000 are technically German (allochtones).

Only?! 700 000 is helluva lot out of 6,7 million. It means that more than 1 in 10 is a criminal.


Not the almost 7 million. Think again, then you know what. In parallel less than 12% of the foreigners are criminals, yet they seem to do the same amount of damage than the germans.Well, if 700 000 people do as much damage as 1,5 million germans then the situation is even worse than muck let us know. That means 1 foreign criminal is twice as dangerous/expensive as 1 german criminal.


They dont seem worse. In terms of "productivity" less germans -2% of the german population (in the alochtone-free scenario) seem to do far more damage than +10% of the foreign bunch. This means Criminally wise german criminals are worse than their foreign counterpart...uh, what kind of reversed logic is this? Of course ~2% of germans that are criminals do more damage than +10% of foreign nationals that are criminals because there are a crapload more germans than foreigners so that 2% is more actual individuals than 10% from other population..jesus.


Briefly put, 1 "immigrant" does 1 crime. 1 german criminal does 5 (simplification).:roll:err..this doesn't make any sense at all.


Very good indeed. I see generalisation is your forte countrary to elementary mathematics.err..same as above. You need to go back to school.

[toki]

It is true that German society is not there yet, but it is clearly on the way. The article above seems to exaggerate the problems a bit, at least from my viewpoint. In the streets of Bonn and Cologne you see people with a "migration background" all the time, in all shapes and colors: brown, black, yellow and what not. And they seem neither to be especially poor or especially ****e to violence (that is, not more than the honkeys among us). Most speak German very well, some without any accent (or even with the local accent), they seem to have work, own shops and are normal citizens like anyone else. I really do not have the impression that integration isn't happening in Germany.
Yep, add 40km north and it's the same.

I know my post sounded more xenophobe then i normally come across. But your point is valid: Turks and Greeks etc. own shops around every corner here. They are integrated, accepted etc.

But: The real problem here is not (only) an integration problem, but of youth politics. Something is really wrong independant from ethnical lines. And i think the discussion now in the media isn't that far off: Tougher punishments for "kids". For me there's no difference if some eastern German kid kills a homeless for no reason, or a western German immigrant almost kills an elderly man. Would it be Turks alone, the Muslim card would be played, Russians alone - the general immigrant card, Germans alone - the Nazi card, or just 'youth'.

But all have this in common, young adults on rampage, never really facing severe consequences.

Any kind of solution for this would automatically touch the foreign/immigrant youth violence.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Yep, add 40km north and it's the same.

I know my post sounded more xenophobe then i normally come across. But your point is valid: Turks and Greeks etc. own shops around every corner here. They are integrated, accepted etc.

But: The real problem here is not (only) an integration problem, but of youth politics. Something is really wrong independant from ethnical lines. And i think the discussion now in the media isn't that far off: Tougher punishments for "kids". For me there's no difference if some eastern German kid kills a homeless for no reason, or a western German immigrant almost kills an elderly man. Would it be Turks alone, the Muslim card would be played, Russians alone - the general immigrant card, Germans alone - the Nazi card, or just 'youth'.

But all have this in common, young adults on rampage, never really facing severe consequences.

Any kind of solution for this would automatically touch the foreign/immigrant youth violence.
The "youth" card still doesn't explain the disproportionally high percentage of crime committed by foreign-youth. And I think religion and patriarchal cultures ARE a part of the problem. Your Turkish friends will be the first to admit that in Turkish families boys get away with just about whatever they want whereas girls clean up the mess afterwards. Combine this with a judicial system that seems unwilling to punish them, a German population that is afraid of them and a group of peers that idolizes them in their false rebellion and national pride and you have a few more ingredients to a potentially combustible mix.

[KoTeMoRe]

Only?! 700 000 is helluva lot out of 6,7 million. It means that more than 1 in 10 is a criminal.

Well, if 700 000 people do as much damage as 1,5 million germans then the situation is even worse than muck let us know. That means 1 foreign criminal is twice as dangerous/expensive as 1 german criminal.

uh, what kind of reversed logic is this? Of course ~2% of germans that are criminals do more damage than +10% of foreign nationals that are criminals because there are a crapload more germans than foreigners so that 2% is more actual individuals than 10% from other population..jesus.

err..this doesn't make any sense at all.

err..same as above.

No as stated above these 700 000(while including the allochtones into the foreigner group) or about the third of the criminal population of germany do actually less than their numerical share. Read Muck's post again.

In most cases for 33% of the CrimPop they barely reach the 30% crime mark (in rapes). They thus have a 0.9 crime per perpetrator proportion.So these dudes commit group crimes...

Now most contrasting is that we have no other indication. According to Muck every criminal in germany committed almost 3 crimes in the year in question...6,3 millon crimes/2,2 million perps.

Yet we have only the proportion of the authors by origin, not the proprtions of origin+amount combined.

So other than the nitpicks given by Muck we have nothing more to bite.

No BS, this is mathematics kosse, i know the educationnal system in Suomi is liberal but come on. Muck tried to imply that 7 million foreigners are criminals, by that logic damn we have 75 million german criminals. That's that.

Oh and please I've been in the hate business for a tad longer than you (EMP assistant group for the last 2 years), to gobble some of your flaming issues.

[muck]

Methodology helps. 8.9 percent of your population is of foreign origin. Yet only 700 000 of these "foreigners" have comitted crimes or have been involved in criminal activity. Not mentioning 200 000 are technically German (allochtones).

Not the almost 7 million. Think again, then you know what. In parallel less than 12% of the foreigners are criminals, yet they seem to do the same amount of damage than the germans.

They dont seem worse. In terms of "productivity" less germans -2% of the german population (in the alochtone-free scenario) seem to do far more damage than +10% of the foreign bunch. This means Criminally wise german criminals are worse than their foreign counterpart...

Briefly put, 1 "immigrant" does 1 crime. 1 german criminal does 5 (simplification).:roll:

Very good indeed. I see generalisation is your forte countrary to elementary mathematics.

Since you've accused me of generalisation, I don't get your point because you're generalising a lot and using a very weird kind of logic.

Consider that of roughly 75 million native Germans 1.7 million have committed a crime in the report period. That makes a ratio which suggests that 2.15% of all native Germans have committed a crime in 2006, whilst the ratio among foreigners is up to 10.7%.

Culprits coming from the group of foreign nationals in Germany which represents about 8.9% of the overall population have committed nearly 30% of all crimes, that's a matter of fact.

I honestly don't get what you want to tell us.

[muck]

No BS, this is mathematics kosse, i know the educationnal system in Suomi is liberal but come on. Muck tried to imply that 7 million foreigners are criminals, by that logic damn we have 75 million german criminals. That's that.

Cool, that's new even to me despite it was my humble self who authored the stumbling block.woot

[KoTeMoRe]

Since you've accused me of generalisation, I don't get your point because you're generalising a lot and using a very weird kind of logic.

Consider that of roughly 75 million native Germans 1.7 million have committed a crime in the report period. That makes a ratio of about 2.15% culprits of all native Germans, whilst the ratio among foreigners is up to 10.7%.

Culprits coming from the group of foreign nationals in Germany which represents about 8.9% of the overall population have committed nearly 30% of all crimes, that's a matter of fact.

I honestly don't get what you want to tell us.

I must quote you then...unless you've edited since.


1.In turn that means that 6.7 million foreigners committ as many crimes as about 20.5 million Germans.



2.That means that 30.7% of all crimes were committed by 8.9% of the population.


Simple mathematics, 700 000 people in germany commit 30% (according to your swamp gas) of 6.3 million crimes, that makes to any decent and honest human being that less that 1% of the german residents commit these 30% of criminal activity. It happens that these 700 000 are foreigners or allochtones. Quite a change no?

At the same time less than 2% of people in germany commit 70% of the crimes. And these people are german born.

Here the picture...Now i suggest stat-101 to you .

Happy New Year.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Happy New Year.
Do you live in Germany? It's not rocket science to figure out that Germany has an immigrant crime problem of increasing magnitude.

And no amount of statistical manipulation will make it go away. In fact, it is this kind of statistical manipulation that helps create an impotent political climate when it comes to implementing positive change, which has less to do with punishing immigrants than it does with actually helping their necessary integration.

[muck]

@KoTeMoRe

My statement is absolutely correct. I guess you don't know how a crime comparison statistic is compiled: A ratio of number of committed crimes compared to 100000 persons is held as an index for the safety situation in a nation, what leads to values of for example 2.4 cases of murder per 100000 people and so on.
Just an example for the present debate: The murder rate per capita among Germans is 1.6 murder per 100000 persons, the same rate among foreigners is 9.2 murder per 100000 persons.

[kosse]

No as stated above these 700 000(while including the allochtones into the foreigner group) or about the third of the criminal population of germany do actually less than their numerical share. Read Muck's post again.

This is totally insignificant. The point still is that 8,9% of people make 30,7% of all crime in Germany.


In most cases for 33% of the CrimPop they barely reach the 30% crime mark (in rapes). They thus have a 0.9 crime per perpetrator proportion.So these dudes commit group crimes...And the point is? This is still insignificant.


Yet we have only the proportion of the authors by origin, not the proprtions of origin+amount combined.
So other than the nitpicks given by Muck we have nothing more to bite.First thing you got right so far.


No BS, this is mathematics kosse, i know the educationnal system in Suomi is liberal but come on. Muck tried to imply that 7 million foreigners are criminals, by that logic damn we have 75 million german criminals. That's that.No he did not you tard. Leave the mathematics to us Finns and Germans.


Oh and please I've been in the hate business for a tad longer than you (EMP assistant group for the last 2 years), to gobble some of your flaming issues.Well, you are still quite clueless.

[toki]

The "youth" card still doesn't explain the disproportionally high percentage of crime committed by foreign-youth. And I think religion and patriarchal cultures ARE a part of the problem. Your Turkish friends will be the first to admit that in Turkish families boys get away with just about whatever they want whereas girls clean up the mess afterwards. Combine this with a judicial system that seems unwilling to punish them, a German population that is afraid of them and a group of peers that idolizes them in their false rebellion and national pride and you have a few more ingredients to a potentially combustible mix.

As i said they do admit (they're mature enough). And you're probably right, that you can't separate those two (or more) factors. Just putting it on immigration/integration alone is probably just as wrong as putting it on youth politics alone. In combination it is definitely worse.

OT: I have one turkish friend who came here just 3 years ago, Totally different background - from Istanbul. I still speak english with him most of the time. He lives more like an expat at the moment, than an immigrant. Highly paid. He was quite shocked about few of his 'compatriots'. Obviously. Isolated immigrant societies create their own rules.

The Turks i know from my school, mostly elementary school had another hint:
When they were young, they were beaten by their father for not being good in school. My uncle who is a teacher told me the same. The first (to second) generation immigrants followed strict family traditions. And young kids had respect. Somehow this is lost as well. The young ones (3rd generation) definitely get away with alot...

I have no definite answer. There's truth in most what is posted so far. it's not easy to explain and solve. The same decay is also seen in parts of the German youth. It's a combo of thousand things. Like we discussed once, the school system adds up quite a bit to the problem.

[kosse]

Do you live in Germany? It's not rocket science to figure out that Germany has an immigrant crime problem of increasing magnitude.

And no amount of statistical manipulation will make it go away. In fact, it is this kind of statistical manipulation that helps create an impotent political climate when it comes to implementing positive change, which has less to do with punishing immigrants than it does with actually helping their necessary integration.

Damn it took me time to figure out where he was getting to with his reversed logic and bad English. It was so weird that I had to read every sentence at least 10 times and I still could not understand everything. Bu he sure knows how to make simple statistics look like space mathematics :)

[muck]

Another factor is disregard of authorities. The German police is usually a trustworthy and incorruptible force, but if I was at let's say a Palestinian's stead I would not trust the police either if I have had trouble with the police in my country before.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

I have no definite answer. There's truth in most what is posted so far. it's not easy to explain and solve. The same decay is also seen in parts of the German youth. It's a combo of thousand things. Like we discussed once, the school system adds up quite a bit to the problem.
Agreed that youth problems across the board are a significant part of the problem.
However the schools would be the first to (and quite correctly) say that they aren't there to raise society's children. That's supposed to be done at home. In fact it is the teachers today that are faced day to day with a lot of the problems created by undisciplined youth.

I had a friend who taught German for foreigners at the Volkshochschule. She was instructed NOT to throw a student out of class when he called her Schlampe, Nutte or Hure. After all, it was just part of the poor immigrant's culture and he just couldn't help himself, she being a woman and all. Curiously enough, he figured out these words right away but still hasn't learned to say danke schön, bitte or Entschuldigung.

[toki]

Agreed that youth problems across the board are a significant part of the problem.
However the schools would be the first to (and quite correctly) say that they aren't there to raise society's children. That's supposed to be done at home. In fact it is the teachers today that are faced day to day with a lot of the problems created by undisciplined youth.

I had a friend who taught German for foreigners at the Volkshochschule. She was instructed NOT to throw a student out of class when he called her Schlampe, Nutte or Hure. After all, it was just part of the poor immigrant's culture and he just couldn't help himself, she being a woman and all. Curiously enough, he figured out these words right away but still hasn't learned to say danke schön, bitte or Entschuldigung.

That's definitely "our" fault. Where's the education? :|

As i said, my uncle is (was) a teacher. In the state of Saarland. They also have (had) a mining area and lots of immigrants/Gastarbeiter - similar to the core Ruhrgebiet. He said, he teached and integrated the first wave in his school. They were definitely more respectful back then. Their parents didn't allow disobediance, so did my uncle as a teacher. (Ok he was male, but my aunt was a teacher as well!)
He just retired last year, dispassionate about everything and burned out.

It is definitely a fault to show a soft hand and allow disrespectful behaviour.
The decay is obvious, but wasn't there at the beginning of immigration.
The later generations who are born here are somehow worse. Which is a bad sign.

(Not all of them, obviously). The ones in my later highschool all had pretty solid income families.
Not the typical 'problemzone'.

[KoTeMoRe]

Do you live in Germany? It's not rocket science to figure out that Germany has an immigrant crime problem of increasing magnitude.

And no amount of statistical manipulation will make it go away. In fact, it is this kind of statistical manipulation that helps create an impotent political climate when it comes to implementing positive change, which has less to do with punishing immigrants than it does with actually helping their necessary integration.


I'm not manipulating anything.

Breakfast in Vegas please do tell me: What does this mean in plain English:


In turn that means that 6.7 million foreigners committ as many crimes as about 20.5 million Germans.

So even the American with german citizenship included in the 7 Million foreigners kills a german madchen every year?

Dudes (kosse and muck) wake the f**k up, you blatantly assume that all the foreigners are criminals by stating 8,9 % of the german population are criminals (while the Crim Pop in germany does not exceed 3 %).

Come ON.

@Muck

Murder rate? Wow, so now you attempt to save your face by telling me I'm clueless about proportions? Murder rate is higher, great how many murders for how many culprits. Given the fact that the group sample is smaller this is quite normal and a real issue. However you still got your german criminal doeing proportionally more damage than the foreigners.

So nothing new there. I said +10% percent of the foreign population (including the allochtones) is involved in crime. Yet the foreign criminals do less crime on a 1/1 basis. A german criminal is likely to commit more crimes than its foreign counterpart.

66 percent of the 2.2 million criminals in germany is german born. They commit 70% of the 6.3 million crimes. Do the math 4.41 million of the crimes are committed by 1.5 million criminals vs 1.89 million crimes by 700 000 criminals.

The whole idea here is that you do have a serious crime issue overall, your german criminals do infact more damage individually than the foreigners, all this with a little twist, you can't expell them.

[Freibier]

KoTeMoRe, blabber on as much as you want but fact remains that the crime rate among foreigners in Germany is much higher than the crime rate among germans.
Just what muck said ...

[toki]

The whole idea here is that you do have a serious crime issue overall, your german criminals do infact more damage individually than the foreigners, all this with a little twist, you can't expell them.

Dude, you're totally confused.

Individually seen, a criminal is a criminal. You can only compare groups. And the immigrants put more into the equation. Like BiV, said it's no Rocket Science.

And i wonder why you get so defensive here?!

The true dicussion is what me make out of it. The numbers are as clear as they can get.

[KoTeMoRe]

Dude, you're totally confused.

Individually seen, a criminal is a criminal. You can only compare groups. And the immigrants put more into the equation. Like BiV, said it's no Rocket Science.

And i wonder why you get so defensive here?!

Frei bier, Muck said that the 7 million foreigners are criminals...if you agree great for you.

How ever, the other sad part I'm focusing on is that despite these 700 000 foreign trouble makers (from wich 200 000 are german citizens or naturalized germans) your german born criminals are worse and that there isn't for them the same kind of quick out of the a*se answer that you have for the foreigners.

The other point is that there still are 6 million foreigners that do not commit crimes wich are unjustly regarded by Muck and you all as criminals. Wich in technical words is the quintessence of Xenophobia.

I'm not defensive, I just can't believe that your english is that bad.

Edit: Individually seen a criminal is not interchageable, a cold blooded killer is seen here as an equal to a perpetrator of an honour crime. Wich is not the same. If your german killer kills four cops but the albanian kills his brother in law for Kanun matters to me that is not the same, AT ALL.

I mean there must be a maturity issue somewhere this level of absurdity can't be possible in Western Europe.

[muck]

@KoTeMeRe

Seriously I don't get your point, and to judge from other members reactions you ought accept that your twisted logic is hardly traceable.

It is that simple: Criminals from a part such small as about 8% of the overall population committ 30% of all crimes in a report year. Following that fact one could draw the conclusion that the criminals from 24% of the overall population were enough to make up the hundred percent, right?
The ratio is however very dissimiliar between foreigners and native Germans. You've made big words about mathematics, so why don't you check out that: 92.2% of the overall population committ 70% of all crimes whilst only 8.8% committ all the rest of 30%?
It is clearly a dissimiliar ratio, suggesting that in comparison more crimes are committed by an foreigner than by a German.


Murder rate? Wow, so now you attempt to save your face by telling me I'm clueless about proportions? Murder rate is higher, great how many murders for how many culprits.
In turn that means that 6.7 million (add crime rate per capita) foreigners committ as many crimes as about 20.5 million (add crime rate per capita) Germans.
I have reasons to believe you did not understand what I've meant, nor did you read my last post about crime comparison statistics.
It's that simple: The ratio between a certain number of a certain crime and a certain part of the population, usually in a scale of 100000 persons, is held as an scientific index for the safety situation in a certain country.
An easy example is the murder rate in Germany: It is about 2,4 cases of murder per 100000 people. However if the ratio between murders committed by Germans and foreigners is taken into consideration, the following value comes up: 1.6 murder cases per 100000 people among Germans, whilst the ratio among foreigners is by far higher: 9.2 cases per 100000 foreigners. The same applies to all other crimes. You should not forget the 'pool' of Germans is much more bigger than the one of foreigners, so the only possible conclusion which can be drawn from this figure is: A foreigner in Germany is more likely to committ a crime than a native German. Period.

[toki]

Frei bier, Muck said that the 7 million foreigners are criminals...if you agree great for you.

How ever, the other sad part I'm focusing on is that despite these 700 000 foreign trouble makers (from wich 200 000 are german citizens or naturalized germans) your german born criminals are worse and that there isn't for them the same kind of quick out of the a*se answer that you have for the foreigners.

The other point is that there still are 6 million foreigners that do not commit crimes wich are unjustly regarded by Muck and you all as criminals. Wich in technical words is the quintessence of Xenophobia.

I'm not defensive, I just can't believe that your english is that bad.

NO, they didn't say that. 7 million people of one group commit as many crimes as 20 million of another doesn't mean those 7 million are criminals. It can be only 1000 if you want. STATISTICS and RATIOS, you know? The "X per 100.000" ratio is hardly NOT to understand.


I mean there must be a maturity issue somewhere this level of absurdity can't be possible in Western Europe.
Don't act as an a**hole here. You clearly made a logical mistake and don't get over it. I see your time here limited.

[KoTeMoRe]

NO, they didn't say that. 7 million people of one group commit as many crimes as 20 million of another doesn't mean those 7 million are criminals. It can be only 1000 if you want. STATISTICS and RATIOS, you know?


Don't act as an a**hole here. You clearly made a logical mistake and don't get over it. I see your time here limited.

You want a quote?

[toki]

You want a quote?

YES.......

(i reply later)

[dava]

Yes, lets all forget socio-economic situations here.

Lets compare the germans from the lower classes with the immigrants, i bet there wont be such a great discrepancy anymore
Its no lie that most immigrants have poor living conditions, that drives everyone into crime. Immigrant and non-immigrant alike.
Lets compare whitecollar-crimes between immigrants and non-immigrants. Guess the story would be quite different there

[muck]

Lets compare whitecollar-crimes between immigrants and non-immigrants. Guess the story would be quite different there

That would include what? Sorry, I don't know that term.

[dava]

The types of crime committed under the white collar crime title are things such as fraud, bankruptcy fraud, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime, pension fund crime, and identity theft and consumer fraud. There are several more but it would be impossible to name them all.

Damage of whitecollar crime has been estimated to be more costly to society than streetcrime. But its ofcourse not so visible. Unless they are big scandals like Enron.

[muck]

The types of crime committed under the white collar crime title are things such as fraud, bankruptcy fraud, insider trading, embezzlement, computer crime, pension fund crime, and identity theft and consumer fraud. There are several more but it would be impossible to name them all.

Damage of whitecollar crime has been estimated to be more costly to society than streetcrime. But its ofcourse not so visible. Unless they are big scandals like Enron.
Well, that's indeed true.

[Kippari]

Damage of whitecollar crime has been estimated to be more costly to society than streetcrime. But its ofcourse not so visible. Unless they are big scandals like Enron.
Whitecollar crimes don't usually end up in someone boing hospitalized, but i see your point. I guess it's easier to make scams in U.S. since there's less government surveillance... I could be wrong though. Besides, we don't have that bluecollar-whitecollar thing here, we have plebs and patricians or peasants and barons instead.p-)

[muck]

Fact is, Germany has trouble with violent crime, especially with violent youth crime, what quickly requires a tightening of the youth penalty code. Unfortunately, many violent criminals are from foreign descent, that is a fact, too.
I doubt that Koch's proposals are solely motivated by his election campaign; An increase of youth crime just has attracted notice to the issue again lately.

Six of the most notorious cases, all took place in December:
Eastern German city of Chemnitz: A 16 years old boy kills a taxi driver, mother of three, with knife stabs.
Hanseatic city of Bremen: A 19 years man, skilled in martial arts, attacks several persons without any reason, beating a student to coma. Later he attacks a jewelry store, and again injures two persons.
Southern German city of Augsburg: A 17 years old youth rapes and later chokes a 18 years old woman.
Hanseatic city of Hamburg: A 16 years old boy is arrested after having committed more than 50 housebreakings.
Eastern German city of Neuruppin: An 8 years old stabs a classmate.
Western German city of Grevenbroich: A 15 years old boy stabs his girlfriend to death. She wanted leave him because of another boy.

[KoTeMoRe]

YES.......

(i reply later)


It is that simple: Criminals from a part such small as about 8% of the overall population committ 30% of all crimes in a report year. Following that fact one could draw the conclusion that the criminals from 24% of the overall population were enough to make up the hundred percent, right?
The ratio is however very dissimiliar between foreigners and native Germans. You've made big words about mathematics, so why don't you check out that: 92.2% of the overall population committ 70% of all crimes whilst only 8.8% committ all the rest of 30%?
It is clearly a dissimiliar ratio, suggesting that in comparison more crimes are committed by an foreigner than by a German.

I love this part.
92.2% of the overall population committ 70% of all crimes whilst only 8.8% committ all the rest of 30%?

Pure non sense, so all germans are criminals...your friend needs intensive care.

On a more subjective note:

As for foreigners being more ****e to criminal conduct, that's overgeneralisation.

As I said not all foreigners have the same backgroud and claming that such a huge group of different people called "the foreigners" are identically the same, to the point of suffering the same syndromes leading them to commit crimes is plainly Xenophobic.

So he gets together the french ex-pat, the canadian ex-pat, the albanian plumber and the kurdish grocery manager calls them, the foreigners and labels them more criminal than the germans. Seems something just got very wrong.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

So he gets together the french ex-pat, the canadian ex-pat, the albanian plumber and the kurdish grocery manager calls them, the foreigners and labels them more criminal than the germans. Seems something just got very wrong.
You really seem to be missing the point. Put away your scratch paper, your compass, abacus and calculator and try printing out all of the posts and having them read aloud to you, preferably by a foreigner, who has a 95% chance of not killing you within the first 10 minutes.

Your chances of survival decrease threefold every additional 10 minutes you spend with him. The rate of decrease doubles if you speak to him.

Wear a helmet.

[toki]

I love this part.

92.2% of the overall population committ 70% of all crimes whilst only 8.8% committ all the rest of 30%?

Pure non sense, so all germans are criminals...your friend needs intensive care.


Dude, either you never came across any statistics or have a hard time with maths:
100% of the populattion is split in 2 groups: One is 91,2% the other 8,8%. 30% of the overall crime is commited from members in the group, that only presents 8,8% of the population. This statistic does NOT provide anymore info on how many in those two groups really act criminal at all.

It is definitely your misconception. And now move along.


so all germans are criminals...
No, not true, not a conclusion of this statistic and nobody ever said that.


your friend needs intensive care.
You need to go back to school.
Finito.

Your not providing anything to the discussion, other than bitching about an obvious misconception on your side.

If you read earlier posts we have gone further, past the maths and already discussed it openly. You seem to pull the racist card, where there's no need to if you would mind reading other posts carefully.

[muck]

What a frigging comedian. I'm glad someone else is getting my point.

[KoTeMoRe]

Oh the irony.

I will report this matter to a native english speaker, to see if he understands in Muck's statements what Muck and you seem to grasp.

Comedian? Dude less than 3% of the german population is criminal, less than 1% of the german population is criminal and of foreign origin.

Less than 2% of the german population is criminal and german born. These are figures.

Let's review your numbers in english.

What does this sentence mean:


92.2% of the overall population committ 70% of all crimes whilst only 8.8% committ all the rest of 30%?

This phrase in plain english means that the whole of the population is criminal and divided in two criminal groups. These groups commit 100% of teh crimes and (according to Muck's sentence) are to be divided in two groups committing respectievely 70 and 30 percent of the crimes.

English, learn it. My misconception? No his inability to understand what he writes in English and a serious overgeneralisation.

As I said, this party called " them Foreigners" shows some real understanding of the situation.

This point is moot and will be reported just for a good laughter.

[toki]

Oh the irony.

I will report this matter to a native english speaker, to see if he understands in Muck's statements what Muck and you seem to grasp.

...

This point is moot and will be reported just for a good laughter.

Here's (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2961571&postcount=57) your native english speaker.

Clown.

[joka]

Have you noticed how strange it is that we seem to have some kind of collective guilt all over the Europe that inhibits us from acting to curb the problems like this with real measures. We always try to play down the troubles or find fault in ourselves when clearly that is not the case. Is it Germany's WW2 history or white man's guilt dating from colonial times that haunts us or something else? People are too afraid to say anything lest they be branded as racists and media does it's best to whitewash or hide all negative aspects that are related to immigration.


Not the old "everyone is too politically correct to talk about reality" routine. Unless you want to move towards a 30's Germany there is no alternative but to integrate immigrants. Once we agree on that, then you have to ask yourself how do we integrate them. I'm not going to pretend to know how, but one way of working towards the exact opposite goal is to run around accusing them to be rapists and criminals, talking crap about them behind their back and giving them the worst jobs available if employing them at all. I'm not making excuses for criminals here but it's a two way street.
Throw the criminals out for all I care though.

I'm sure someone from Sweden could dig up statistics from Stockholm in the 70's conclusively proving that "Finns are criminals" but somehow I have a feeling you'd prefer to be judged individually and have the benefit of the doubt before being called that?

[muck]

Oh the irony.

I will report this matter to a native english speaker, to see if he understands in Muck's statements what Muck and you seem to grasp.

Comedian? Dude less than 3% of the german population is criminal, less than 1% of the german population is criminal and of foreign origin.

Less than 2% of the german population is criminal and german born. These are figures.

Let's review your numbers in english.

What does this sentence mean:

This phrase in plain english means that the whole of the population is criminal and divided in two criminal groups. These groups commit 100% of teh crimes and (according to Muck's sentence) are to be divided in two groups committing respectievely 70 and 30 percent of the crimes.

English, learn it. My misconception? No his inability to understand what he writes in English and a serious overgeneralisation.

As I said, this party called " them Foreigners" shows some real understanding of the situation.

This point is moot and will be reported just for a good laughter.


My last attempt: Did you read what I've written before? The blabla about the figures with which the safety situation in a nation is described?

The story about the let's say 2.4 murders per 100.000 persons?

This German murder per capita ratio multiplicated with 820 (due to the relation) adds up to roughly 2.000 killings in Germany per year, set into comparison with about 82.000.000 persons that live in Germany at all. Does that indicate that 82.000.000 persons have banded together to kill 2.000 others? No, it does not. It does mean that an in this case uncertain number of criminals out of the overall population of 82 mn people have committed 2.000 murders in the report year. And that is what I've said. Within one part of the population so many crimes are committed, whilst within the other so many crimes are committed. Criminals from roughly 92% of the population are responsible for 70% of the crimes, whilst criminals from the missing 8% are responsible for the remaining 30%.

Why do statisticians create their figures like this? - It's that simply: They don't know all the criminals by name, so, metaphorically speaking, they cannot exactly define where in this number of 82 mn peoples the culprits are located, be it from 0 to 2000 or from 81999000 to 8200000.

It is obvious that everybody but you has understood this. Should make you think a bit, I guess.

[tsuri]

I should let it die but I will retry, with all the english vocabulary I remember from statistics II.

You have a statistical population of all the people in Germany. Members of this group commit 100% of the crimes. If you now take a random selection of 9%, they should be responsible for 9% of the crimes (in an ideal situation).
If you now use a non random sample, consisting solely of all foreigners in the country which is also made up of 9%.

Our 0-Hypothesis would now be that the amount of crimes X commited by members of this group would be exactly 9% of the overall amount of crimes.

We measure this and we see that X = 30%. What do you conclude now? I wont even bother to calculate a correlation coefficent from this stuff because it is crystal clear. But you are invited to do so and show that the correlation is not significant.

Edit:
Muck beat me to it with a different approach ^^;

[muck]

I should let it die but I will retry, with all the english vocabulary I remember from statistics II.

You have a statistical population of all the people in Germany. Members of this group commit 100% of the crimes. If you now take a random selection of 9%, they should be responsible for 9% of the crimes (in an ideal situation).
If you now use a non random sample, consisting solely of all foreigners in the country which is also made up of 9%.

Our 0-Hypothesis would now be that the amount of crimes X commited by members of this group would be exactly 9% of the overall amount of crimes.

We measure this and we see that X = 30%. What do you conclude now? I wont even bother to calculate a correlation coefficent from this stuff because it is crystal clear. But you are invited to do so and show that the correlation is not significant.

That's exactly what I'm on at the moment. Keeping his eyes shut for the explanation, he continued for roughly a half dozen replies to read something into the figures I came up with - namely that I would have said that all people necessariliy are criminals. To say it in this way is not wrongly spoken due to the way how these statistics are made. That was all what toki, Breakfast_In_Vegas and my humble self tried to explain to him.

[tsuri]

I know, I tried to translate your argumentation into statistical terms which would probably lead him to take up his lecture's script and read a bit about correlation. If he is the statistics buff he makes himself to be, he can calculate it.

What are the real world explanations for this anyhow? I have not read much of the sociological background and it puzzles me that immigrants would be so disproportionatly ****e to crime in so many countries?
Is it because a lot of criminals will work transnationally and thus by nature end up as foreigners wherever they work?

[emiljoe]

I agree with JoaMei there. However he missed to add an even more shocking figure, that more than 60% of all violent youth crimes are committed by foreigners under 18 years of age.
Prime Minister Koch is just seizing what is supported by many, even by many foreigners: A tightening of the ridiculously soft German youth penalty code under which even a 21 years old culprit can fall. He is planning a tightening which of course would apply for anyone regardless of his descent, race or whatsoever else.
Koch's opponents in the upcoming state election just fear to become toppled by his proposals and therefore stage a public outcry, it is that simple.
Integration issues may be a reason for an increase of crime among foreigners, there is no doubt about that. Though it is still up to any individual to decide what is right and what is wrong. Especially among foreigners it is a cool 'item' to have been in jail before - what is only bearable for them because their sentences mostly have little relation to the crimes they've committed.
My personal favourites:
Eastern German city of Chemnitz, 2005: A 15 years old youth of Lebanese descent rapes a 23 years old woman on her way home. She becomes pregnant. Later he will be identified by his DNS. His sentence: 7 months in prison. His plea: He had been frustrated because his girlfriend did not want to sleep with him. After three months he is granted early parole after he has agreed to serve several hundred 'public service hours'.
Berlin, 2004: A 19 years old German asks a group of other passengers in a subway train to turn down the sound of their handy. They insult him, and don't react to his polite request. Later this evening they follow him to his home and stabb him to death. The judge 'recognizes' in the following trial that their reaction would have to be traced back to their southern descent. Their sentence: 29 months in prison each.
Eastern German village of Tessin, 2007: Two 17-years old teenagers kill the parents of their friend with 120 stabs with a knife and take a girl as hostage. Their reason for the bloodshed: They had wanted to see how it looks like when a person dies. Their sentence: 9 years in prison, early parole could be granted after 4 served years.Social rehabilitation is one thing, but the attempt to rehabilitate a 15 years old boy with 30 previous convictions is wasted time and money. Other countries also deport reoffending foreigners, so why should German authorities not do that?

Governments must not tolerate crime. Criminals native or foreigners must be punish to the fullest extent of the law in order for civilization to survive. :)

[Invisigoth]

One question: what is wrong with wanting to expel foreigners committing violent crime from Germany? Absolutely nothing in my humble opinion. I would expect any other country to do the same.

Its absolutely mind-boggling that someone with a criminal history like the ones mentioned in the original article is not behind bars. If they are foreigners, sentence them and deport them, and if a German does it, sentence him and throw him in jail.

Don't see the xenophobia issue here, sounds more like common sense to me.

[XTC]

One question: what is wrong with wanting to expel foreigners committing violent crime from Germany? Absolutely nothing in my humble opinion.

x2

Switzerland will probably expel from the country all foreign citizens who commit a crime or who abuse the social system + the whole family (under given circumstances) may face deportation.

[Heinemann]

One question: what is wrong with wanting to expel foreigners committing violent crime from Germany? Absolutely nothing in my humble opinion. I would expect any other country to do the same.

Its absolutely mind-boggling that someone with a criminal history like the ones mentioned in the original article is not behind bars. If they are foreigners, sentence them and deport them, and if a German does it, sentence him and throw him in jail.

Don't see the xenophobia issue here, sounds more like common sense to me.

Welcome to 2008 where political correctness runs almost every aspect of politics.

[conefire]

The problem is the lack of unity and civil courage in Germany, combined with the overly exaggregated tolerance and pacifism attitude that plagues all of Europe's society, but Germany's in particular. It's not only the people in state or federal politics, but those people in our society who, in the end, have more direct power, albeit on a lower level: Judges, teachers, all these youth therapists, etc... and of course the media :roll:

They are 40+ years old and grew up in the 60s-80s Germany that simply didn't have the extremely violent youths. Now they have completely lost the grip on the reality of Germany's big city streets. They don't live there, they don't go there, how could they be able to judge what is really going on? They can't. And I know what I'm talking about. I live in Munich, I grew up here. I had my share of violent clashes with these types and although you could think I'm too old for that kind of stuff now, I could run into another one tonight when I'm going out with my friends. And it is getting increasingly violent: bottles, stones, knives... The goal is definetly not to slap someone so he pisses off, it is to totally finish him, permanent injuries are accepted. And that it's almost always foreigners (very often Turks) is simply a matter of FACT.

And still, what's the typical reaction of the 30 to 50 year olds in Munich: "Munich is the safest city in Europe, it's an isolated incident", "surely if someone got beaten up badly he had provoked it"... these are exactly the comments i heard by a group in the subway just yesterday... these people are just blind towards reality.

Yes, Germany has a problem with violent foreign youths, but it has a bigger one with it's own '68-generation.

[Xaito]

The problem is the lack of unity and civil courage in Germany, combined with the overly exaggregated tolerance and pacifism attitude that plagues all of Europe's society

It's not a plague imo - its a great thing.
Problem is: it can be abused - also there are people who come from different cultures and don't share this mindset.

[dava]

Problem is, most of these immagrants have a german passport no?
Where are you going to send them to when they are a german citizen?
But crimes should be punished harder, thats true.
But also, how much you guys all complain, europe is still on top of safest places to live.

To tell a related sidenote, when i was travelling in Japan, the only fights i ve seen there were started by westerners :)

[muck]

I doubt that there is any other country that would not expell repeat offenders of foreign nationality.
I just name things like I see it - We have enough problems with native German criminals, we don't have to bear an additional burden with criminal foreigners if they can legally be sent back to their country. I would never limit this to certain nationalities.
And it is like Invisigoth said, I'd really expect any other country to act in the exact same manner.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080115/us_nm/usa_immigration_deportations_dc

Just sayin'.

"U.S. to step up deportation of jailed immigrants
Mon Jan 14, 11:19 PM ET


The United States expects to deport more than 200,000 immigrants this year who are serving time in prisons and jails across the country, the top U.S. immigration enforcement official said.

The move to speed the deportation of foreign-born criminals aims to help federal and state prisons reduce the costs of housing immigrants, Julie Myers, head of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, told The New York Times.

Illegal immigration has emerged as one of the most passionate in the campaign for the 2008 U.S. presidential election.

In 2007, ICE brought formal immigration charges against 164,000 immigrants who are behind bars nationwide, the Times reported on Tuesday.

Many of those immigrants are slated for deportation this year, she told the newspaper.

The Times said in 2006, the agency identified 64,000 immigrants behind bars, most of whom were deported.

Myers said in the past year, federal agents have stepped up efforts to find immigrants behind bars and complete immigration proceedings so they could be deported directly from prison without being released into the streets, Myers said.

Foreigners behind bars include large numbers of immigrants who were legal residents, but lost their legal status as a result of being convicted of crimes, Myers told the Times.

In 2007, ICE sent 276,912 immigrants to their home countries, including many who had never been arrested for crimes, but were deported for civil immigration violations, The New York Times reported.

The newspaper said Myers also confirmed that ICE adopted a new policy last week requiring a court order for medical staff members to give sedation drugs to immigrants being deported."

[GodlessAmerica!]

Ahh after all life in developing countries has its own advantages. :) No evil immigrants are thretening you. :)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Ahh after all life in developing countries has its own advantages. :) No evil emigrants are thretening you. :)
Emigrants LEAVE the country, immigrants ARRIVE in the country. Two different things.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Emigrants LEAVE the country, immigrants ARRIVE in the country. Two different things.

Well if emigrants leave our country they do not threaten us anymore, right? :)

[Freibier]

Well if emigrants leave our country they do not threaten us anymore, right? :)
only in soviet russia

[GodlessAmerica!]

only in soviet russia

Well if we talk seriously, in result of emigration our counrty lose not only skilled workers, but along with them various scum.

[Fuschimuschi]

Btw, doesn't look like Koch's campaign was that successfull.
His party, the CDU lost 12%

[muck]

He still won the most votes at all, and in the most personal comparison polls he was kicking Ypsilanti's ass. She has nothing concrete, only some diffuse plans to shut down nuclear plants. She cannot form a government either, that is at least one reason to be happy.
What really pisses me off is that the socialists made their way into both state parliaments...
:bash:

[Saubaatzi]

the funniest thing is that Koch did not gather the electoral districts which would have been mainly affected by his anti-immigrant agenda. all the urban centers are taken by the SPD (frankfurt itself is mostly SPD area). this brings me to the conclusion that the foreign threat isn't that menacing at all. Or they just don't believe him that he gets the job done (the way the people want to).


edit: i deleted the link to the spiegel.de page. if the politic forum isn't a place to discuss opinions, so shall it be.

[muck]

Oh yeah because everything is so easy, right?
The SPD has the support of the working class. And where do we find the most workers - in cities.

These letters had been posted here before, the concerning thread has already been locked up by the mods. They only reflect the personal opinion of some commentators and do not make any real statement about xenophobia in Germany.

[Saubaatzi]

where did i say that anything was easy? I said I find it interesting, because urban areas are mainly affected and as you possibly know, is the working class, a class not necessarily open-minded. Or at least it isn't here. So my judgment is based on my perception. And because I do not know about any scientific sociological essay with "the Xenophobia of german urban centers" as the topic, I think that my perception is quite dependable one. If you prefer to differ: welcome to democracy, lad.

These comments state not only the opinion but the experience of the foreigners in contact with the German population. So it is just not a random accumulation of statements, it is kind of a mirror they hold up to us.

[PsychoMantis]

And the problem is? At the expense of sounding un-PC and narrowminded,I think Germany has the right idea. Crime is a cancer,it needs to be dealt with immediatly,swift and with extreme prejudice.

[muck]

where did i say that anything was easy? I said I find it interesting, because urban areas are mainly affected and as you possibly know, is the working class, a class not necessarily open-minded. Or at least it isn't here. So my judgment is based on my perception. And because I do not know about any scientific sociological essay with "the Xenophobia of german urban centers" as the topic, I think that my perception is quite dependable one. If you prefer to differ: welcome to democracy, lad.

These comments state not only the opinion but the experience of the foreigners in contact with the German population. So it is just not a random accumulation of statements, it is kind of a mirror they hold up to us.

Why at all is "xenophobia" recited like a mantra all the time? Koch's election campaign suggested he would deal harder with youth crime once he was reelected. The most criminal youths are unfortunately immigrants, but that is nothing more than a simple coincidence in this case. Their own fault.

[Doublethinker]

Xenophobia is a natural respone of any complex system to alien invasion.

If a body fails to control and restrain the influx of alien bodies and exclude them if they interrupt with the functioning of an organism or as a precaution if the number thereof is getting too big, it's called 'AIDS'. Its a disease, a sickness of a society, not its achievement.

And it leads to death.

[toki]

Xenophobia is a natural respone of any complex system to alien invasion.

If a body fails to control and restrain the influx of alien bodies and exclude them if they interrupt with the functioning of an organism or as a precaution if the number thereof is getting too big, it's called 'AIDS'. Its a disease, a sickness of a society, not its achievement.

And it leads to death.

By your logic: single immigrants = political HIV!

ole ole ole! hooray! :cantbeli:
What are immigrant societies like the US? Long time AIDS survivors?

[Doublethinker]

By your logic: single immigrants = political HIV!
ole ole ole! hooray! :cantbeli:
What are immigrant societies like the US? Long time AIDS survivors?

America isn't an immigrant society. Immigrants move into an already established society to become its part. While the US was founded by colonists, who created a new society from the scratch.

But they did destroy the host culture on these lands, the indians. So your example is very useful in that sense. Thanks for proving my point.