East Timor Escalation

[Matt_E]

I'm curious to find out if anyone believes that the events in East Timor in 1999 could've escalated into a direct conflict between Indonesian and Australian forces.

If so, what could the cause(s) be? How would such a conflict unfold? How would it end? And what consequences would there be?

Also, are there any other points in recent history where Australia and Indonesia could've gone to war againt each other?

Cheers.

[Opening Batsman]

Also, are there any other points in recent history where Australia and Indonesia could've gone to war againt each other?

Well we did kind of fight a war against them in the '60s, including offensive operations inside their borders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konfrontasi

[kongman]

my money is on us aussies kicking there ass..............

[Insane Tadpole]

Don't forget us :D

[kongman]

Don't forget us :D


yup the kiwi will come and steal all their sheep...if they have any...

[Insane Tadpole]

yup the kiwi will come and steal all their sheep...if they have any...
We try to protect whats most valued to us :)

[kongman]

We try to protect whats most valued to us :)

ha ha ...........yup and well steal all the beer............

[velvet-cream]

I'm curious to find out if anyone believes that the events in East Timor in 1999 could've escalated into a direct conflict between Indonesian and Australian forces.

If so, what could the cause(s) be? How would such a conflict unfold? How would it end? And what consequences would there be?

Also, are there any other points in recent history where Australia and Indonesia could've gone to war againt each other?

Cheers.

If Indon caught us doing aerial/ground recon within their borders before they formally invited us into Timor Leste, there would have been serious diplomatic issues.

However, I doubt there would have been an official war between Australia and Indonesia. Minor skirmishes/border disputes - may be, but not a full blown war.

Even though we had an extra brigade on readiness at the time, I doubt our forces were large enough to engage the full Indonesian military on their home soil. There's just too many of them.

[Dr_ColoSSus]

Even though we had an extra brigade on readiness at the time, I doubt our forces were large enough to engage the full Indonesian military on their home soil. There's just too many of them.

For us to invade and occupy the entire country?
yes.
For us to destroy their 'air force' and 'navy' as well as seizing East and West timor? No.

Their airforce and navy in 99 was no mach for ours. If we were smart, we would neutralize them both first. After taking them out (Indonesia only had 8 falcons and about 20 F-5's, while we had over 100 F-18's / F-111's) of the equation we could have blockaded all of timor to prevent reinforcements arriving to indonesian West Timor .(the indonesian navy, which should have been decimated by airstrikes at this point would never have been able to attempt to defeat our entire navy at the best of times)
Once that was done, if the Indonesiains did not surreneder their garrison, (which was about 17000 strong at the time) then the Army would have a fight on its hands, though if we deployed every bit of armour and arty available, i reckon we could have done it. Once we had a blockade around Timor, the size of the Indonesian army no longer matters, what matters is that they cannot send any more troops or supplies to reinforce the garrison. Its no good having 200 000 troops if yoiu cant send them to where they are needed.

Outcome? indonesia humiliated and hostile towards us for the next 20 years at least. Many other provinces such as aceh would start agitatating for greater autonomy or independence.

Just my two cents, though depending on who was making the decisions either side could have lost the 'war' in a day.

Im curious though, if push came to shove and the indonesians resisted our moves into East Timor, how far would have the governemt pushed it? I know there was a detachment of F-111's sent to RAAF Tindal during the crisis, ready to bomb a TNI command and control facility near Jakarta to impede the Indonesians response.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I heard "rumors" when I was working in the research division at a university that Habibie was pretty cheesed off over how events unfolded to the point he called Kofi Annan and Annan talked him out of doing anything "stupid"

This is only hearsay from academia though so whether it's fact or not is a different story.

Though there was a few clashes between the ADF and TNI especially in the border areas.

I think if West Papua or Aceh flare up and we get involved in a similar fashion **** may hit the fan. There is a fair bit of mutual distrust between Australia and Indonesia.

Some elements in Indonesia see Australia as wanting to split up Indonesia and after the resource of West Papua, Some elements in Australia see Indonesia as waiting for an opportunity to invade the top end for more living space. There is also fishing disputes, a bit of an arms race.

You could say the relationship resembles a mini cold war. A lot of mistrust there but enough respect to work together for the common good.

[Opening Batsman]

I think if West Papua or Aceh flare up and we get involved in a similar fashion **** may hit the fan. There is a fair bit of mutual distrust between Australia and Indonesia.

We won't have anything to do with that, I reckon. East Timor was an exception to the rule, as it was never part of the Dutch territory that Indonesia came out of and was annexed by an unprovoked invasion. On top of the fact that Indonesia would never give us permission to go into another territory as they did in East Timor (officially, anyway), it isn't in our interests. The last thing we want is a bunch of small, weak countries to our north who hate each other.

[kalboy]

I'd love to see some comment from our northern neighbour members.

Back in 99 there was a fair bit of aussie flag burning on Java but these days you hear/see nothing.

[gafkiwi]

When I was over there in 99-00 there were contingencies in place for our bn to withdraw if it all turned to ****e. On the way over on the tobruk we were apparently being shadowed by Indo elements, we had a yank assault carrier nearby so we felt pretty safe.
There was also had an aussy F-111 doing a low pass down our side off the TCL at one stage, apparently it was during a bit of "Posturing" between the Indo's and Interfet.

[bruiserau]

I agree with Colossus. Initial phases with the RAAF+RAN would determine how the rest of the situation would develop. Hard to fight a war if you can't get to it!

[tboy01]

Indo's are too lazy and have no tactical knowledge to fight anyone with any real nouse. Their military is 100% geared toward internal rising/ insurgency.

[Insane Tadpole]

Indo's are too lazy and have no tactical knowledge to fight anyone with any real nouse. Their military is 100% geared toward internal rising/ insurgency.
Your an Idoit.

[Fianjnoglach]

When I was over there in 99-00 there were contingencies in place for our bn to withdraw if it all turned to ****e. On the way over on the tobruk we were apparently being shadowed by Indo elements, we had a yank assault carrier nearby so we felt pretty safe.
There was also had an aussy F-111 doing a low pass down our side off the TCL at one stage, apparently it was during a bit of "Posturing" between the Indo's and Interfet.

I was on the Tobruk around that time too. We were attached to 1RNZIR and landed at Suai. Great times.
Remember the US helis bringing in our containers onto Suai APOD.

[gafkiwi]

I was on the Tobruk around that time too. We were attached to 1RNZIR and landed at Suai. Great times.
Remember the US helis bringing in our containers onto Suai APOD.

You didn't happen to live out the back of the FOB in Suai in a small paddock next to the 1RNZIR recce pl did you?

[tboy01]

Your an Idoit.
Oh I am the idiot? So my op time with the Indo's, not to mention working and living there in a civilian capacity doesn't mean ****?

I would be interested to hear your valued worldly thoughts on the matter?

In other word kid get some life experience up and get back to me.:bash:

[Insane Tadpole]

Oh I am the idiot? So my op time with the Indo's, not to mention working and living there in a civilian capacity doesn't mean ****?

I would be interested to hear your valued worldly thoughts on the matter?

In other word kid get some life experience up and get back to me.:bash:
Still stand by my words.

[bruiserau]

Still stand by my words.


Are you going to back your words up? You can't just call BS then not show what you got in return!

[Insane Tadpole]

Are you going to back your words up? You can't just call BS then not show what you got in return!
I didn't say BS.

[Dr_ColoSSus]

Indo's are too lazy and have no tactical knowledge to fight anyone with any real nouse. Their military is 100% geared toward internal rising/ insurgency.


Wouldnt know about the first sentence, but the second sentence is on the money, their army is more focused on keeping the peace in their own country. The greatest threat to Indonesia comes from within, not from it's neighbours.

[budgie]

Indo's are too lazy and have no tactical knowledge to fight anyone with any real nouse. Their military is 100% geared toward internal rising/ insurgency.

I wouldn't say they are lazy (and BTW there are Indonesian members here) but it is true that the Indonesian military is not really geared towards conventional warfare against a similar ooponent or force projection. Like many S.E. Asian armies, their main role is to protect the government from its own people - to stifle uprisings and rebellions and project state authority. If need be of course such a large army can defend Java and Sumatra, but the TNI was not trained, equipped or even politically motivated to challenge the world over Timor.

[gafkiwi]

I wouldn't say they are lazy (and BTW there are Indonesian members here) but it is true that the Indonesian military is not really geared towards conventional warfare against a similar ooponent or force projection. Like many S.E. Asian armies, their main role is to protect the government from its own people - to stifle uprisings and rebellions and project state authority. If need be of course such a large army can defend Java and Sumatra, but the TNI was not trained, equipped or even politically motivated to challenge the world over Timor.


It probley doesn't help the massive difference in professionalism between different Indonesian units. I have witnessed the difference in the Bns the Indos put along the TCL, One unit at a junction point would leave their weapons unattended, patrol with no mag on their weapons and "Taxing" refugees coming back across the TCL to East Timor. Another unit we worked oppisite were very professional. We observed them on Patrol, practicing similar SOPs to ours, watching their arcs. When we met them at border meetings and they struck me as well disiplined. Units of this standard were rare on the TCL though, I think the Indo Govn needed their better units else where.

[Eztyga]

I wouldn't say they are lazy (and BTW there are Indonesian members here) but it is true that the Indonesian military is not really geared towards conventional warfare against a similar ooponent or force projection. Like many S.E. Asian armies, their main role is to protect the government from its own people - to stifle uprisings and rebellions and project state authority. If need be of course such a large army can defend Java and Sumatra, but the TNI was not trained, equipped or even politically motivated to challenge the world over Timor.

The Indon troops stationed in East Timor were garrison troops, and as such their fighting abilities were suspect. Couple this with a lack of heavy equipment and sea / air support and they were on the back-foot immediately.

The Indon government wasn't looking for a full scale battle that might damage the trade between our two countries.

The loss of face was a greater issue for them than the loss of East Timor.

Ezy

[digrar]

I wouldn't say they are lazy (and BTW there are Indonesian members here)

The ones I saw were, saw them the same place Tboy saw his. I think Gafkiwi saw the only ones that were there to do their jobs properly.

[gafkiwi]

The ones I saw were, saw them the same place Tboy saw his. I think Gafkiwi saw the only ones that were there to do their jobs properly.

Yup, and after that one time I never saw professional soldiers again. Come to think of it, it was when there was some "Higher up" meetings between Sec West HQ and the Indo eqivilent when we were marking the TCL so I suppose they weren't from the normal Bns on the TCL.

[tboy01]

The ones I saw were, saw them the same place Tboy saw his. I think Gafkiwi saw the only ones that were there to do their jobs properly.
Yeah but my opinion hasn't just been formed on that on one meeting. I have had plenty to do with Indo's "more elite" units whilst working in a civilian capacity and it still doesn't change my opinion of there military and its leadership.

[Benny]

And let's not forget that the Timorese resistance also might have played a role.

Benny

[Fianjnoglach]

You didn't happen to live out the back of the FOB in Suai in a small paddock next to the 1RNZIR recce pl did you?

Sorry for the delay in answering. Yeah, great times! Moved on up to Taroman after a few weeks. Still remember doing stand-to just before we'd turn on our gennies!

[RonsonJeremiah]

A little off topic, but when I was in East Timor in '05, doing some medical assistance stuff, I visited their main military training base. I was a Navy journalist at the time and was wandering the base taking photographs, when I happened into an old building where hundreds, if not thousands, of human skeletons were being stored. They were victims of the fighting whose remains had been found in Dili and in outlying areas.

It was a very somber and sobering experience. Especially seeing the bones of small children and babies.

The base also housed the two crocodiles Steve Irwin rescued from a pool behind the Indonesian police chief's headquarters in Dili. As you stepped up to the enclosure, the larger one, about 11 feet in length, would come charging out of the water and ram the fence. Apparently, it had acquired a taste for human flesh, or so I read on some website. It stated that when Irwin rescued them, the water they were in was littered with human and animal parts.

I guess threatening people with death by crocodile was a good interrogation tactic.

By the way, had a few rounds of cold VB with the Aussies at the same base. They had set-up a nice little pub there.

[gafkiwi]

Sorry for the delay in answering. Yeah, great times! Moved on up to Taroman after a few weeks. Still remember doing stand-to just before we'd turn on our gennies!

Well its against the geneva convention to attack while the gennies are going!!I was one of the recce boys from across the paddock, Man you guys had a prime piece of real estate up Taroman (apart from Mount Taroman), walked up that damn hill a couple times. Did 4 weeks at the retrans on top.

Back to topic, I remember when we were leaving in 02 and the NZ commitment ended, general concensus amoungst the guys was we were going to be back in the country but we thought 10 years not 4.

[digrar]

The base also housed the two crocodiles Steve Irwin rescued from a pool behind the Indonesian police chief's headquarters in Dili. As you stepped up to the enclosure, the larger one, about 11 feet in length, would come charging out of the water and ram the fence. Apparently, it had acquired a taste for human flesh, or so I read on some website. It stated that when Irwin rescued them, the water they were in was littered with human and animal parts.

I guess threatening people with death by crocodile was a good interrogation tactic.



We were told the same sort of story about the sharks at Batugade, at any rate we had someone on the beach with a rifle when we went swimming...

[ShotOver]

Ah, using the good old Pusser "Gunner of the watch" method eh? :lol:

[gafkiwi]

We were told the same sort of story about the sharks at Batugade, at any rate we had someone on the beach with a rifle when we went swimming...

We also had an extra level of protection, Making sure we always had an outer ring of "locals" when we were in the water.

[Fianjnoglach]

Man you guys had a prime piece of real estate up Taroman (apart from Mount Taroman), walked up that damn hill a couple times. Did 4 weeks at the retrans on top.

Yeah, one of our first Operations was to OP Taroman, it sucked ass walking up and down that hill doing CTR's and ****. We had Sam the tracker with us at the time, crazy f*%$#r !

[Fianjnoglach]

We were told the same sort of story about the sharks at Batugade, at any rate we had someone on the beach with a rifle when we went swimming...

Still couldn't get us into the water though!

[Fianjnoglach]

A little off topic, but when I was in East Timor in '05, doing some medical assistance stuff, I visited their main military training base. I was a Navy journalist at the time and was wandering the base taking photographs, when I happened into an old building where hundreds, if not thousands, of human skeletons were being stored. They were victims of the fighting whose remains had been found in Dili and in outlying areas.

We did a route recce up to Zumalai early on in the trip, drove for hours without seeing a soul. Anyway got into Zumalai and was doing a clearance patrol when this woman came up with her kids carrying a cloth bundle. She was giving us lots of Bom Dias and giving the bag to us. We refused as we thought it was food. Turned out it was her husband, minus his head!
Seemed funny at the time.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

We had Sam the tracker with us at the time, crazy f*%$#r !

Stupid f*cker sent home for conducting his own personal ops.

[Fianjnoglach]

Really? Same guy?
Last name starts with an R..... Really sad if it is.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Really? Same guy?
Last name starts with an R..... Really sad if it is.

Yep, short stocky guy with a tat on his face.

No, not sad, just lucky for him and the rest of us he didn't get caught by 'others' pulling the sh*t that he did.

F*ckwit shoulda been pensioned off years ago.

[digrar]

We did a route recce up to Zumalai early on in the trip, drove for hours without seeing a soul. Anyway got into Zumalai and was doing a clearance patrol when this woman came up with her kids carrying a cloth bundle. She was giving us lots of Bom Dias and giving the bag to us. We refused as we thought it was food. Turned out it was her husband, minus his head!
Seemed funny at the time.

We had a family open up a suit case at a VCP at Nanura bridge, it had the grand father inside, he'd been killed over 20 years ago and they were taking him back to the family plot.

[gafkiwi]

We did a route recce up to Zumalai early on in the trip, drove for hours without seeing a soul.

Would that happen to have been when you guys used the APCs on one of the Patrols up that way, and overnighted on a football pitch near the town???

[RonsonJeremiah]

Not that this has anything to do with East Timor, but I had another run-in with a saltwater crocodile in Nias, Indonesia. We were there doing relief stuff after the tsunami in '04 and were touring the area in a cab. We decided to visit a zoo...if you can truly call it that. It was the first ever zoo that I'd been to that had an open trash dump in the middle of it. Seems like everywhere I went in Indo, there were piles of mouldering garbage everywhere, or the locals were just burning their trash outside their home, plastics and all. The smell was lovely. Anyway, at this "zoo" they had an enormous croc in a small, deep pit that you had to lean up against and look down into. It had a chicken wire covering over the top that was rather flimsy. As we leaned over to look in, the croc, which was as long as the pit was deep, raised up and rammed its head into the chicken wire lid and nearly bumped it open, trying to get at us. Apparently, in the confusion following the tsunami, the workers forgot to lock the hatch. It nearly made me **** my pants.

I had many a strange encounter while in Indonesia for 3 months. The dysentery was especially interesting. ****ting blood was a real good time.
The locally made liquor didn't help at all. Well, it did pave the way for many a officer/enlisted love affair, though.

Some of the security detachment guys ended up getting wasted and decided to have races on some of the locals mopeds. They ended up racing right past our commanding officer, a Navy Captain (0-6). He wasn't pleased and nearly canceled out liberty.

Also, I got to hold one of the Indonesian police officers AK-47's, after I bought him a drink. I opened the breech to check if it was loaded when he handed it to me, and it was. He also didn't have it on safe. I immediately handed it back to him and moved to a different bar.

[Fianjnoglach]

Would that happen to have been when you guys used the APCs on one of the Patrols up that way, and overnighted on a football pitch near the town???

Yep, Drove up in the Mikes. Think the canadians (Your favourite allies if I remember) took over Zumalai afterwards. Still have a lot of Kiwi kit that I still use - Pack, mug.
At the end of the trip, I got an escape map from one of the Recce Pl lads.

[gafkiwi]

Yep, Drove up in the Mikes. Think the canadians (Your favourite allies if I remember) took over Zumalai afterwards. Still have a lot of Kiwi kit that I still use - Pack, mug.
At the end of the trip, I got an escape map from one of the Recce Pl lads.

Do you remember a kiwi sniper team that came along for the ride? I was the N.O. 2. On the same task we had to escort a canadian enginneer officer around to do a recce for their FOB, The locals said where he wanted to put it (where we overnighted) was no good cause it was a flood plain, But alas he knew better, to bad roll on the wet season.

[tboy01]

Not that this has anything to do with East Timor, but I had another run-in with a saltwater crocodile in Nias, Indonesia. We were there doing relief stuff after the tsunami in '04 and were touring the area in a cab. We decided to visit a zoo...if you can truly call it that. It was the first ever zoo that I'd been to that had an open trash dump in the middle of it. Seems like everywhere I went in Indo, there were piles of mouldering garbage everywhere, or the locals were just burning their trash outside their home, plastics and all. The smell was lovely. Anyway, at this "zoo" they had an enormous croc in a small, deep pit that you had to lean up against and look down into. It had a chicken wire covering over the top that was rather flimsy. As we leaned over to look in, the croc, which was as long as the pit was deep, raised up and rammed its head into the chicken wire lid and nearly bumped it open, trying to get at us. Apparently, in the confusion following the tsunami, the workers forgot to lock the hatch. It nearly made me **** my pants.

I had many a strange encounter while in Indonesia for 3 months. The dysentery was especially interesting. ****ting blood was a real good time.
The locally made liquor didn't help at all. Well, it did pave the way for many a officer/enlisted love affair, though.

Some of the security detachment guys ended up getting wasted and decided to have races on some of the locals mopeds. They ended up racing right past our commanding officer, a Navy Captain (0-6). He wasn't pleased and nearly canceled out liberty.

Also, I got to hold one of the Indonesian police officers AK-47's, after I bought him a drink. I opened the breech to check if it was loaded when he handed it to me, and it was. He also didn't have it on safe. I immediately handed it back to him and moved to a different bar.
Youy weren't working off the USS Abraham Lincon were you?

[Fianjnoglach]

Do you remember a kiwi sniper team that came along for the ride? I was the N.O. 2. On the same task we had to escort a canadian enginneer officer around to do a recce for their FOB, The locals said where he wanted to put it (where we overnighted) was no good cause it was a flood plain, But alas he knew better, to bad roll on the wet season.

Took this pic at Zumalai on that particular patrol, was employed as a Sniper myself.

[Irish]

Nice pic. :)