McCain onIraq. What do GIs think?

[Gurdil]

I don't like McCain much. But I'm not doing this thread to make any critics.
I would like to know what American soldiers (or family) think about staying in Iraq for the next 100 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf7HYoh9YMM

And his stand about the surge. He said that he would walk alone in Baghdad and that General Pastreus go out of the green zone in an unarmed Humvee every day. Is it serious?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06hR2EGpl4o


PS: I'm against the war. I don't like McCain much. I'm not here to make any critics.
I just want to know what GIs think about what he is saying.

[Freibier]

He said that he would walk alone in Baghdad and that General Pastreus go out of the green zone in an unarmed Humvee every day.
I wanna see that to believe it ...

[pacifist]

Really sucks for america.

You can't even find a good presidential candidate.

[Zoomie]

Gurdil,
Are you an American in Belgium, or are you a native Belgian?

[Gurdil]

Really sucks for america.

You can't even find a good presidential candidate.
Then you haven't looked for all candidates ;)


Gurdil,
Are you an American in Belgium, or are you a native Belgian?
Native Belgian seeking to immigrate in the US.

[gaijinsamurai]

Really sucks for america.

You can't even find a good presidential candidate.

I can't argue with you there. I've been voting in presidential elections since 1988, and I never liked any of the candidates.

[seraosha]

I'm as cool with us maintaining a military presence in Iraq as I am with us being in Japan, Germany and Korea...necessary evil.

And I'm pretty sure we, as Americans, can walk through Berlin, Tokyo, and Seoul with little trouble. Eventually, Baghdad will be the same.

What seems to be missing from your equation is the willingness and ability to kill, maim, and destroy anyone that stands in our way...which in Americas short history, seems to be the MO so far.

And I'm just fine with that, by the way.
Play nice or we'll bring Democracy to you too.

[Gurdil]

I'm as cool with us maintaining a military presence in Iraq as I am with us being in Japan, Germany and Korea...necessary evil.

And I'm pretty sure we, as Americans, can walk through Berlin, Tokyo, and Seoul with little trouble. Eventually, Baghdad will be the same.

What seems to be missing from your equation is the willingness and ability to kill, maim, and destroy anyone that stands in our way...which in Americas short history, seems to be the MO so far.

And I'm just fine with that, by the way.
Play nice or we'll bring Democracy to you too.
I prefer having America restoring its constitution and freedom and not going bankrupted more than having democracy here in Belgium.
Btw, I don't like democracy.

[Power_serj]

Contrary to popular belief, we have the same freedoms and the constitution is held up, regardless of what President Bush and US haters say.

[Gurdil]

I don't think that the 4th amendment would allow something like the patriot act.
The 2nd amendment is not respected. There are plenty of gun restriction laws in the US.
The constitution doesn't provide for a central bank.

here is the section 10 of article 1.


Section 10: No State shall enter into any Treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty), Alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_alliance), or Confederation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation); grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque); coin Money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money); emit Bills of Credit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bills_of_Credit&action=edit); make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Attainder), ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_Clause), or grant any Title of Nobility. No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
And this is just a sample of examples where the Constitution isn't held up. I'm looking into the Constitution, but it seems the IRS is unconstitutional too.

[Gurdil]

sorry there is the 16th amendment (which I'm opposed to).
By the way. I'm not a Bush Hater. And you will probably not find any more pro-American person than I am. But being against the actual system in America isn't so unamerican. Since most laws and spendings made by the federal government do more harm than good, being against what has been done in the last decades is pro-American.

in my opinion being pro-American means :
- treat all American citizens equally (no taxation or subsidies)
- Do not steal and respect the fruit of the labor of honest citizen(no taxation, no printing of money)
- being pro freedom (less laws, less federal government)
- believing more the American people more than their politicians (being pro 2nd amendment, against taxation and making laws)
- believing in national sovereignty (strong national defense and leave UN)

[Lt. James Anderson]

McCain is a slut.

[MZKT]

in my opinion being pro-American means :
- treat all American citizens equally (no taxation or subsidies)
- Do not steal and respect the fruit of the labor of honest citizen(no taxation, no printing of money)
- being pro freedom (less laws, less federal government)
- believing more the American people more than their politicians (being pro 2nd amendment, against taxation and making laws)
- believing in national sovereignty (strong national defense and leave UN)

And who will pay the policemen, teachers, emergency workers, soldiers etc if the state don't get any income by taxation?

[boreal]

And who will pay the policemen, teachers, emergency workers, soldiers etc if the state don't get any income by taxation?


Obvious, Chuck Norris

[Signaleer]

I prefer having America restoring its constitution and freedom and not going bankrupted more than having democracy here in Belgium.
Btw, I don't like democracy.

The United States is a Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition--not a democracy.

[JJC]

I don't think that the 4th amendment would allow something like the patriot act.
The 2nd amendment is not respected. There are plenty of gun restriction laws in the US.
The constitution doesn't provide for a central bank.

here is the section 10 of article 1.
And this is just a sample of examples where the Constitution isn't held up. I'm looking into the Constitution, but it seems the IRS is unconstitutional too.

The constitution was not intended to spell out the Do's and Don'ts on micro level. The framers were not prophets and the constitution is not some divine document. The constitution didn't mention central banks, nor did it delegate that power to the states under the 10th. But the Justices did rule that the central bank is constitutional under the "necessary and proper clause."

[Power_serj]

There is nothing unconstitutional about the IRS. Although some may think certain laws goes against what our forefathers had in mind, nothing is against the constitution. For example, gun restrictions in certain states does not go against the constitution. These states can restrict sales, and usage but citizens still have the right to bear arms in all states. I am against gun restrictions as well, but it's not against the constitution, for example.

[Gurdil]

And who will pay the policemen, teachers, emergency workers, soldiers etc if the state don't get any income by taxation?
Ending the IRS, would leave the federal budget of the year 2000. Teachers and policemen are payed by local taxes.


The constitution was not intended to spell out the Do's and Don'ts on micro level. The framers were not prophets and the constitution is not some divine document. The constitution didn't mention central banks, nor did it delegate that power to the states under the 10th. But the Justices did rule that the central bank is constitutional under the "necessary and proper clause."
It says that only gold and silver should be legal tender. Right now the dollar is just paper and a few transistors.
The Fed is unconstitutional. I'm not just saying it. Plenty of intellectuals are saying it.


There is nothing unconstitutional about the IRS. Although some may think certain laws goes against what our forefathers had in mind, nothing is against the constitution. For example, gun restrictions in certain states does not go against the constitution. These states can restrict sales, and usage but citizens still have the right to bear arms in all states. I am against gun restrictions as well, but it's not against the constitution, for example.
The constitution was adopted by every state. So I presume that a gun control law made by a state is unconstitutional. I think it is in the state of NY where you can go to jail 3 years for possessing a gun(+1 year for every ammunition).

[history nut]

As many have pointed out, our Constitution is a "living and breathing" document. Far from perfect, and far from being followed to the letter, it is a guideline for our Republic. It has it's detractors as well as it's ardent supporters. The Constitution has been amended over the years and will continue to be amended as long as it's still the basis of our government. In the scheme of the world we are a young nation. All of this makes the US and our government a "unique experiment".

While I do not discount the books/internet and intellectuals that you've studied, the only way to truly understand how this country works, and it's the same for most nations, is to come and stay a while and "live" it - which you clearly plan on doing. That in itself is very cool - I think you'll like it here.

As to your original question - I leave it up to the experts and professionals for first hand soldier opinions. My time in Iraq was brief (about a week) and I was only there as part of a USO tour BUT I will say that the Soldiers, Arimen, Sailors and Marines that I spoke with, and it was hundreds of them from privates to generals their work ranging from pest control personnel (seriously) to SF A Team and Delta guys (yes they were real operators, these were not the generals I refer to) all express optimism about the mission. That's not to say they want to be there, but I didn't encounter anyone who didn't think things were getting better and that the situation is turning the corner. Everyone also said there is still a lot of work to be done both politically and militarily and that the US will have a presence there, well, forever in their minds. I was told on many occasions that the Iraqi military and police are getting better and more capable daily and that the thing they lag farthest behind in is logistics and the notion of logistics. This is just what I was told, as I mention above the real experts onthe ground will/can tell you their true thoughts.

[KoTeMoRe]

The United States is a Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition--not a democracy.

Hat's off, enough said. My deepest respectful regards sir. That's the US sight I like about. Rough, tough and honest.

On the constitution case, Gurdil compare the US constitution with yours (mine). Interestingly enough you're against collectivism yet you take on the most flexible and loose constitutionnal text to date.

On Iraq, what ever it takes I think the US should suceed in order to keep running. I can barely imagine the consequences of a hasty pull out.

[Gurdil]

history nut. I understand the constitution of the US isn't perfect (man can not make something perfect) but I think it is the best contract between the government and the people ever made. The constitution was design to work in any cases under any circumstances. The advises of the founding fathers were very smart and their advises shouldn't be ignored.
America in the last years has been adopting every European position. A big paradox since people ran away from Europe seeking for freedom. From a central banking system to the welfare state and preemptive war, America is becoming Europe. And I don't want to see that and this why I'll keep on showing that people like McCain, Clinton, Obama or Huckabee aren't good for America. The founding fathers had good reasons to worry about that and every American (especially Democrats and neo-conservatives) should understand why they warned us from big government.
Hopefully the US still has the biggest % of people understanding this.

[seraosha]

Gurdil, with all due respect, until you swear an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, your opinion doesn't mean squat to me.

Once you get your US citizenship (good luck, I hear it's tough), your opinion will mean more...not as much as a military person that swore the above mentioned oath, but it's closer to validity.

Until then, why don't you impress me with Belgium's governmental progress?

[Gurdil]

Forget Belgium. I only see hope in English speaking country and eastern Europe countries.

[KoTeMoRe]

Forget Belgium. I only see hope in English speaking country and eastern Europe countries.

Hilarious. A self-hating Belgian.

[Gurdil]

Hilarious. A self-hating Belgian.
well if you had to live in Belgium, you would directly understand what I'm saying. I had to stop reading news because I was getting crazy.

[wicked_hind]

America is becoming Europe. And I don't want to see that and this why I'll keep on showing that people like McCain, Clinton, Obama or Huckabee aren't good for America. The founding fathers had good reasons to worry about that and every American (especially Democrats and neo-conservatives) should understand why they warned us from big government.
Hopefully the US still has the biggest % of people understanding this.

So if you don't think any of them are good for America, who do you think is, and since you're a navtive Belgian, what makes you think you know who or what's good for us? Sorry, but after reading your posts, I'm not convinced.

[Firetxmi]

Gurdil, with all due respect, until you swear an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic, your opinion doesn't mean squat to me.

Once you get your US citizenship (good luck, I hear it's tough), your opinion will mean more...not as much as a military person that swore the above mentioned oath, but it's closer to validity.


So until I serve in the military my opinion is not as worthy as someone who has?

[HR24]

McCain is alright, but the other night, his repeated swipes at Romney (while deserved), came off like petty swings. I will at least give Romney credit for staying in there and trying to answer every shot across his bow.

[Lusitania]

history nut. I understand the constitution of the US isn't perfect (man can not make something perfect) but I think it is the best contract between the government and the people ever made. The constitution was design to work in any cases under any circumstances. The advises of the founding fathers were very smart and their advises shouldn't be ignored.
America in the last years has been adopting every European position. A big paradox since people ran away from Europe seeking for freedom. From a central banking system to the welfare state and preemptive war, America is becoming Europe. And I don't want to see that and this why I'll keep on showing that people like McCain, Clinton, Obama or Huckabee aren't good for America. The founding fathers had good reasons to worry about that and every American (especially Democrats and neo-conservatives) should understand why they warned us from big government.
Hopefully the US still has the biggest % of people understanding this.

You may like America, but you have much to learn. You are what we call a strict constructionist, similar Thomas Jefferson, others are called loose constructionist, similar to Alexander Hamilton. Jefferson believed that if it was not within the constitution, it was illegal; Hamilton, of course believed the complete opposite. You will find that the framers or "founding fathers" were very much so split on the issue of the federal government. The Jeffersonian-Republicans held your view of a small federal government, however the Hamiltonian/Adams Federalist believed in a strong central government. The Jeffersonian-Republicans believed in a society void of a large standing military as well as industrial centers, instead they believed in the "plight" of the yeoman. The Federalist believed in big business, commerce, a large standing army ect. Within that, you can see that there was no clear idea of what they wanted regarding the government, and they all most certainly did not warn against large government; they were split. Sure you can choose to take one side of the matter, but that does not change the fact that the views of Jefferson and his Virginia Dynasty, were not the "sacred" and undeniable view of the framers. Understand, the constitution was written after the Articles of Confederation that gave the Federal government no power, and as a result the constitution was written to increase that power, as well a few others (look up the Virginia and New Jersey plans). In the end, it all depends on how you interpret the document (I would also urge you to look up Thomas Jefferson's purchase of the Louisiana Territory, and his slight departure from the strict constructionist view).


"in my opinion being pro-American means :
- treat all American citizens equally (no taxation or subsidies)
- Do not steal and respect the fruit of the labor of honest citizen(no taxation, no printing of money)
- being pro freedom (less laws, less federal government)
- believing more the American people more than their politicians (being pro 2nd amendment, against taxation and making laws)
- believing in national sovereignty (strong national defense and leave UN)"

1.) Taxation is mot disallowed within the Constitution
2.) less laws/ less federal government would be the Jeffersonian view, not clearly defined by the framers
3.) Most Americans did not vote for president until the "age of the common man," before then it was strictly done by the electoral college, the popular vote was of no consequence.

I agree with you on some issues, but I just want to outline that the framer's views were not unilateral, and that Jefferson's views were most certainly not sacred, as he changes them during his presidency.

[Undisputed4]

Regardless is you agree with the Iraq War, I think we can all agree that its one of the 2 main fronts against Al Qaeda. We can't afford to lose.

This wouldnt even be an issue if McCain would of been President, the war wouldnt of been mishandled.

We had more Americans in Japan 10 years after WW2 then we do in Iraq now.

[budgie]

Regardless is you agree with the Iraq War, I think we can all agree that its one of the 2 main fronts against Al Qaeda. We can't afford to lose.

This wouldnt even be an issue if McCain would of been President, the war wouldnt of been mishandled.

We had more Americans in Japan 10 years after WW2 then we do in Iraq now.

It's debatable that a gradual or phased withdrawal would be 'losing' against al-Qaeda in Iraq. It's debatable that AQ would last long there without Americans to fight anyway. If it were just a matter of dealing with that small faction the coalition wouldn't need as many troops as it has now.

As for the occupations of Japan and Germany - these were different cases entirely. Neither country had a factionalised population, sectarian killings, interfering neighbours or religious extremism. There was no popular resistance or insurgency and the main job was rebuilding the country. And just in case you think there's a smart comeback about werewolves - it's garbage.

[HR24]

Regardless is you agree with the Iraq War, I think we can all agree that its one of the 2 main fronts against Al Qaeda. We can't afford to lose.

This wouldnt even be an issue if McCain would of been President, the war wouldnt of been mishandled.

We had more Americans in Japan 10 years after WW2 then we do in Iraq now.

Agree with your first point, sorta with your second. There will always be mistakes made.

As for your third, we also had the luxury of a military swelled by the draft in those days. Granted, you are talking 10 years after the combat phase, but there was still carry over.

[seraosha]

So until I serve in the military my opinion is not as worthy as someone who has?

On the topic of the US Constitution, to me, no your opinion doesn't mean as much as someone who swore an oath to protect it, with their lives if need be.

[Litti]

It's quite funny to see a belgian who hates his own country, because Brussels is the best city I've ever lived in. I'm planning to move back at some point.

Belgium has its own political problems but after spending five years in Etterbeek there's no going back! As a foreigner I couldn't care less about the constant arguing between the wallons and flemish. Going to Oostende and swimming in the Atlantic, Brugge etc. that's what it is all about. Drinking with my mates in Schuman and doing some shopping in De Brouckere.

Positives :

-Food
-Architecture
-People
-Safe

What's there not to like. One of the best damn places in Europe. :D

[Firetxmi]

On the topic of the US Constitution, to me, no your opinion doesn't mean as much as someone who swore an oath to protect it, with their lives if need be.

What if one protects the lives of those who live in this country with their own life (if need be), but does not serve in the military? How much does said persons opinion count then?

[Gurdil]

So if you don't think any of them are good for America, who do you think is, and since you're a navtive Belgian, what makes you think you know who or what's good for us? Sorry, but after reading your posts, I'm not convinced.
I don't know what is good or bad for anybody. And I think nobody knows except the individual himself. This is how the American philosophy use to be. This is why I love it so much.


You may like America, but you have much to learn. You are what we call a strict constructionist, similar Thomas Jefferson, others are called loose constructionist, similar to Alexander Hamilton. Jefferson believed that if it was not within the constitution, it was illegal; Hamilton, of course believed the complete opposite. You will find that the framers or "founding fathers" were very much so split on the issue of the federal government. The Jeffersonian-Republicans held your view of a small federal government, however the Hamiltonian/Adams Federalist believed in a strong central government. The Jeffersonian-Republicans believed in a society void of a large standing military as well as industrial centers, instead they believed in the "plight" of the yeoman. The Federalist believed in big business, commerce, a large standing army ect. Within that, you can see that there was no clear idea of what they wanted regarding the government, and they all most certainly did not warn against large government; they were split. Sure you can choose to take one side of the matter, but that does not change the fact that the views of Jefferson and his Virginia Dynasty, were not the "sacred" and undeniable view of the framers. Understand, the constitution was written after the Articles of Confederation that gave the Federal government no power, and as a result the constitution was written to increase that power, as well a few others (look up the Virginia and New Jersey plans). In the end, it all depends on how you interpret the document (I would also urge you to look up Thomas Jefferson's purchase of the Louisiana Territory, and his slight departure from the strict constructionist view).
I love Jefferson. He wanted America to be different than the rest of the world. Having at least 1 free country. I want to live in a country of freedom. Since Americans are the most likely to choose freedom. I chose America. And the more I learn and read the more I'm convinced that freedom is the only way that lead to peace and prosperity.


Regardless is you agree with the Iraq War, I think we can all agree that its one of the 2 main fronts against Al Qaeda. We can't afford to lose.

This wouldnt even be an issue if McCain would of been President, the war wouldnt of been mishandled.

We had more Americans in Japan 10 years after WW2 then we do in Iraq now.
If you don't want to loose the war, you might start to worry about the economy. A army which doesn't have the economy to feed it is meant to fail. Plus you can kill as much Al Qaeda 's member as you want. They keep on recruiting. This will never end. And war that never end always fail (read the art of war)


It's quite funny to see a belgian who hates his own country, because Brussels is the best city I've ever lived in. I'm planning to move back at some point.

Belgium has its own political problems but after spending five years in Etterbeek there's no going back! As a foreigner I couldn't care less about the constant arguing between the wallons and flemish. Going to Oostende and swimming in the Atlantic, Brugge etc. that's what it is all about. Drinking with my mates in Schuman and doing some shopping in De Brouckere.

Positives :

-Food
-Architecture
-People
-Safe

What's there not to like. One of the best damn places in Europe. :D
I love the food and the beer. People aren't so different I think. When you talk 'safe'. do you mean security? go take a walk in St Jose or Schaerbeek (some places). or safe social security? because I don't how long it will last.

[Lusitania]

I love Jefferson. He wanted America to be different than the rest of the world. Having at least 1 free country. I want to live in a country of freedom. Since Americans are the most likely to choose freedom. I chose America. And the more I learn and read the more I'm convinced that freedom is the only way that lead to peace and prosperity.



Well, I think you will get along just fine, because Americans tend to love Jefferson also; there are two names children remember from elementary school: George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.