only change can save cuba

[RICHICOQUI]

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/only_change_can_save_cuba.html

[ZhukovG]

NEOCON propaganda

[Switek]

Nope it's an obvious obviousness. ;)


There can be no economic prosperity without reforms and liberalizations.

End of the story.

[Lt-Col A. Tack]

NEOCON propaganda

ZhukovG's response to any article that criticizes Russia, Cuba, or Venezuela: NEOCON propaganda

Broken Record!

[Gurdil]

Nope it's an obvious obviousness. ;)



End of the story.

I agree with that. But I'm against to embargo to Cuba. The best way to get rid of any kind of type of Collectivism (from fascism to communism) is to put them in competition with the free market.

Military intervention just strengthen the power of dictators. Look at Cuba, Venezuela or Hussein before the war in Iraq. If you look at Vietnam, the military intervention didn't stop the communist. Now that America is trading with them, they start to loose communism.

War is the health of the state. Communists, fascists use to scare their own people or make them focus on a virtual enemy. But collectivism brings poverty, misery and bankrupting. These system collapse when they have to face the strength of the free market economy.

If you want change in Cuba, if you want the commies out, there is only one solution : free trade and Castro and his family will be out without spending one cent.

[Switek]

Agree Gurdil!

As sonner the embargo is banned as this unhuman regime in Cuba will be sweeped. Cubans as a majority must realize that they deserve for better life. I hope that there will be find a stron US leader who underesntands this and will do it.

[Hollis]

Agree Gurdil!

As sooner the embargo is banned as this unhuman regime in Cuba will be sweeped. Cubans as a majority must realize that they deserve for better life. I hope that there will be find a stron US leader who underesntands this and will do it.


I agree with too. It is more than enough time has passed that the embargo should go. Our biggest power to move people to a free market system is the free market system.

Cuba is no worker's paradise but it is no hell either. If the US would have treated Cuba like China or USSR, Cuba would have changed a long time ago.

Communism is slowly finding itself in the waste bin of history along with Lazier faire capitalism.

[Rudolph]

Agreed. Embargos only hurt the poor people on the ground who are the first to be fired when companies get into financial trouble. It does have the effect of making the masses call to arms in some cases, but does Cuba need war? No! Things must sort itself out naturally, I believe... God could also lend a hand in the case of Castro and his brother, though. There are thousands of exiles who are just waiting to return and lead productive lives back home.

[Kippari]

I hope they don't take a crash course into capitalism. World is full of good examples of what kind of things will most probably happen. It would be sad to see the relative welfare society to plunge into social crisis and see hundreds of thousands to get just left out with no compensations and no money for healthcare or education of any kind.

[KoTeMoRe]

I agree with that. But I'm against to embargo to Cuba. The best way to get rid of any kind of type of Collectivism (from fascism to communism) is to put them in competition with the free market.

Military intervention just strengthen the power of dictators. Look at Cuba, Venezuela or Hussein before the war in Iraq. If you look at Vietnam, the military intervention didn't stop the communist. Now that America is trading with them, they start to loose communism.

War is the health of the state. Communists, fascists use to scare their own people or make them focus on a virtual enemy. But collectivism brings poverty, misery and bankrupting. These system collapse when they have to face the strength of the free market economy.

If you want change in Cuba, if you want the commies out, there is only one solution : free trade and Castro and his family will be out without spending one cent.

1. Collectivism does not include fascism, Collectivism, does however include very liberal and democratic forms of common ruling. A parliament is a collective assmbly when all MP's get the same treatment and are required to vote. That's collective decision making.

2. War is the health of individual power, it's a greater scale of what we know as "competition".

3. Virtually every comment you've made about "collectivism" can be capsized and used against any form of social structure.

Actually free trade is the worst case scenario for Cuba, just remember 17 years ago. Free trade was addoubed the miracle solution for the whole eastern Europe. Guess what, commies bought off whole swathes of these economies.
Most of these countries (especially Russia and CIS) are infact under the thumb of former "commies", or foreign investors.

4. That's a friggin win in Popper's scale of falsification.

Cheers.

Switek: China hasn't liberalized a dime since 1978 yet they're the third economic power right now. Most of Europe has modernized in the 19th century under rough government rule, same has to be said about the 20th century with all governments till 1980 being pretty much mixed up in the social and economic life.

[Switek]

Switek: China hasn't liberalized a dime since 1978 yet they're the third economic power right now. Most of Europe has modernized in the 19th century under rough government rule, same has to be said about the 20th century with all governments till 1980 being pretty much mixed up in the social and economic life.

Liberalisation does not imply direct political rights and participation in power but requires protection by law and equal rights for private and other kinds ownership of production means. Esp including existence of private ownership of land and real estates. This is the key for basis for economic development, I guess.

I really do not believe that Chinese or Korean way is applicable for Cuba or other Latin American countries. There are too big cultural differencies.

[nagant_m44]

this article was written by a member of the cuban diaspora, who like to blame everything, from avian flu to Iranian nukes, on Fidel Castro. Take it with a grain of salt.

[p2pPower]

I belive that "saving and liberating" cuba is real propaganda and US BS, only thing what would need to do is that USA would stop embargo against Cuba cause its not treath to anyone and it would help economy of Cuba to grow and help the ppl of Cuba, but no US goverment thinks that Cuba is threat. So the problem is not Fidel its US.

Viva Fidel, Viva Cuba!

PS. I'm against Communism and tyranism, but this time I have to be at they side:backhand:

[Switek]

I'm against Communism and tyranism, but this time I have to be at they side:backhand:

Are you really against communism and Central American bloody tyrant?



Viva Fidel, Viva Cuba!

:cantbeli:

[p2pPower]

Yes I'm against central American tyrants, but what comes to Cuba its kinda different thing and been there seen that etc. And this thing is not black and white of course. And "Viva Fidel, Viva Cuba!" was ment to joke :D U know u hear that much in there:D and Cuba has changed after USSR collapsed. So I belive that opening trade to Cuba would be right thing to do and I see Cuba less threat than like North-Korea and US is opening to them? But in this thing I'm totaly Cubas side and I dont support US actions against Cuba, but other part of South America I dont support and theyr things r much much more worse.

PS. Must add here little more for depate. Does most even know why Cuba became Communist? Or know what happend before Fidel? Or that UN has been trying to end embargo to Cuba last 16 years, but everytime it its not passed cause of US veto and couple other US followers like Israel?

[Switek]

Ok. May be I my intelectual abilities are limited today (I'm getting cold and feel as a ****). :)

The real success for Cubans will be obtained only if they'd be able to liberalize themselves. Not by US or whoever. Cuba is not any military threat to any country.

[Wall]

Of course socialism isn't good, but how do you think that cuban people are going to change it? Life in Cuba, when you dont agree with goverment (and say it) isn't so easy than in western countries...

[Gurdil]

1. Collectivism does not include fascism, Collectivism, does however include very liberal and democratic forms of common ruling. A parliament is a collective assmbly when all MP's get the same treatment and are required to vote. That's collective decision making.

2. War is the health of individual power, it's a greater scale of what we know as "competition".

3. Virtually every comment you've made about "collectivism" can be capsized and used against any form of social structure.

Actually free trade is the worst case scenario for Cuba, just remember 17 years ago. Free trade was addoubed the miracle solution for the whole eastern Europe. Guess what, commies bought off whole swathes of these economies.
Most of these countries (especially Russia and CIS) are infact under the thumb of former "commies", or foreign investors.

4. That's a friggin win in Popper's scale of falsification.

Cheers.

Switek: China hasn't liberalized a dime since 1978 yet they're the third economic power right now. Most of Europe has modernized in the 19th century under rough government rule, same has to be said about the 20th century with all governments till 1980 being pretty much mixed up in the social and economic life.


1. I don't see why fascism wouldn't be a form of collectivism
" that stresses human interdependence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdependence) and the importance of a collective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective), rather than the importance of separate individuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism
Anyway, fascism isn't working.

2. Only bankers, the military industrial complex and politicians seeking for power can profit from the war.
I don't see how individual benefit from it. Soldiers are dying, civilians are dying, families are broken.
Competition under the free market is fat more effective and doesn't need to spill one drop of blood.

3. I'm not especially against collectivism. I'm against imposing collectivism. I haven't met any collectivist not willing to use force yet.
A marriage is a form of collectivism (you usually put wealth (and others things) together to share it).
I'm not against the fact that a few communist would a have a common bank account and redistribute their own wealth. But I'm against the fact of being forced doing that.

4. don't get what your saying

[Switek]

Of course socialism isn't good, but how do you think that cuban people are going to change it? Life in Cuba, when you dont agree with goverment (and say it) isn't so easy than in western countries...

Till I was 20 I used to live in communist country. I know what does it taste in political, economical and social levels. I remeber when the only goods available in shops were vinegar. I remeber when during a month my parents could buy onlu one bar of chocolate. Lemons and oranges I used to eat one a year or rarely. In 1981-82 I had to wear a ten years old winter coat couse there wasn't possible to buy new one for me. I remeber when toilet paper was an luxury good. I remember shortages of sugar and firts cupons distributed to control purchase of it.

The standard of living in Poland was higher than in Cuba but I really hate all this poverty and abjection coused by the most "fair" system of the world: ****ing communism.

Dou yoy really believe that Cubans have reasons to be happy?

[Gurdil]

Of course socialism isn't good, but how do you think that cuban people are going to change it? Life in Cuba, when you dont agree with goverment (and say it) isn't so easy than in western countries...

Socialism collapse on its own. And when socialism has to face the free market, it collapse even faster.

Ending the embargo in Cuba, will let American companies invest in Cuba because of cheaper labor. And Cubans will have better wages. They will buy more and start to enjoy capitalism (as we all do right now:)). They will be able to send their kids in American universities where they will get a real education where they can understand the advantage of a free market society and will come back to their country.
And over a generation or 2, no more socialism.

[Wall]

Dou yoy really believe that Cubans have reasons to be happy?
Did i say so? And answer is, i think that they arent happy.

[KoTeMoRe]

1. I don't see why fascism wouldn't be a form of collectivism
" that stresses human interdependence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdependence) and the importance of a collective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective), rather than the importance of separate individuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism
Anyway, fascism isn't working.

2. Only bankers, the military industrial complex and politicians seeking for power can profit from the war.
I don't see how individual benefit from it. Soldiers are dying, civilians are dying, families are broken.
Competition under the free market is fat more effective and doesn't need to spill one drop of blood.

3. I'm not especially against collectivism. I'm against imposing collectivism. I haven't met any collectivist not willing to use force yet.
A marriage is a form of collectivism (you usually put wealth (and others things) together to share it).
I'm not against the fact that a few communist would a have a common bank account and redistribute their own wealth. But I'm against the fact of being forced doing that.

4. don't get what your saying

1. Collectivism is self imposed (social contract), otherwise it's tyranny in disguise. Wich fascism and post Civil-War Sovietism were. Wiki is not in any case or form a reference.

2. Bankers employ people, use people's money, they are in fact people, read your self again, interdependence, happens every moment. Families being broken? Car accidents, do as much damage as a small civil war, see no one forbidding cars, war as a necessary evil needs no more arguments to hold its own. Plus bankers are the core of free-market, free doesn't mean fair.

War is a power up in human engineering, creation and interaction. Without the two WW and the CW you'd be still on morse code and flag signals.

3. Hi, nice to meet you, I promise I wont use force unless obtained by popular vote. Yet again marriage is not a form of collectivism, since (unless polygyny/polyandria) your wife/husband is actually "privatised", no one can access her/him for breeding apart you. Now if you're a hard core libertarian...
Collective means it has to be completely open on any one, a marriage is actually a closed entity, wich cannot be joined without the couple's approval (ie birth, adoption, polygamy)


4. Try Karl Popper and epistemology.

On Cuba, ending the embargo will not mean killing the Cuban Govt. It's only half of the deal, furthermore your process, akwardly, has never ran that smoothly in any country since the late 70's. In every of the freshly market oriented countries (except Viet-Nam and China-how come?) the former masters have managed to get large portions of the economy playing a de facto role in the massive corruption issues that run amok nowadays, why should that be different in Cuba.

All and all, the whole process of "enjoying capitalism" may take a little time, wich in return may lead to the same crap as in the rest of LatAm.

As for edumacashun, the Cuban educative system is good enough, now if you mean sending an imperial tribute (hint), jeez the days of the ottoman empire are long gone.

Cheers.

[KoTeMoRe]

Liberalisation does not imply direct political rights and participation in power but requires protection by law and equal rights for private and other kinds ownership of production means. Esp including existence of private ownership of land and real estates. This is the key for basis for economic development, I guess.

I really do not believe that Chinese or Korean way is applicable for Cuba or other Latin American countries. There are too big cultural differencies.

Then you're even wronger, since any economic venture in China is heavily related to the political sphere.

That still does not exist in china for foreigners and are heavily restricted for the chinese themselves.

Liberalisation is intended in the political sphere and the economical one.

Edit: Poland was never a communist country, heavily sovietized but it still had a state, a police, and the church was tolerated. Nice try, seems you're pretty selective on your memories. Ah and I've tasted "popular democracy" too (Albania), and of a heavier degree, As for the living standart in Cuba before the BWC, actually given the fact Poland was behind Hungary in the mid-80's Cuba was a step ahead (visited Cuba twice, and Cienfuegos it's actually better than some parts of Wroclaw). Will try to find my albanian passport as a proof.

[Switek]

Then you're even wronger, since any economic venture in China is heavily related to the political sphere.

That still does not exist in china for foreigners and are heavily restricted for the chinese themselves.

Liberalisation is intended in the political sphere and the economical one.

The political and state warranties are being (it's very slow porcess) replaced by law. Private ownership of cars in China, for example. Chinese leaders know that they must go that way.

As for Poland between mid 1940's-end of 1980's I really don't wanna argue about theoretical nomenclature and whch one is much more suitable.

[KoTeMoRe]

The political and state warranties are being (it's very slow porcess) replaced by law. Private ownership of cars in China, for example. Chinese leaders know that they must go that way.

As for Poland between mid 1940's-end of 1980's I really don't wanna argue about theoretical nomenclature and whch one is much more suitable.


Private ownership of cars in china was related to their availability and fund sufficience, there are cars to be bought and money to buy them now, it has never been an issue owning a car in china as a legal fact, legally you still take the same way as in the mid 60's you must make a formal demand for the car and the licence plate. Oh I forgot, there were only 2 million driving licences available in 1967 in china...(according to Lew 1994).

Sometimes the political frame isn't to blame.

[Lefty]

This article is fine if you think Fidel Castro will wake up tomorrow with a change of heart against the American Capitalist aggressors. But I'm not putting my money on that.

Castro loves US dollars, tourists to Cuba are encouraged because they bring valuable money in. When El Commadente passes, my guess is there will be a power-struggle in the country. Dictatorships like Cuba need a figurehead to succeed, and Raul Castro IMO does not have that charismatic legitimacy. Someone with more radical views might, it would be valuable for the US to nurture that and encourage a more capitalist Cuba with American dollars. I think now might be a good time to lift the embargo with Cuba seeing as how Castro does not seem long for this world.

[khalifah]

In any case guys, Fidel is at the end of his life anyway, how old is he 70's,80's? Regardless of what's Cuba's political state, when he is dead something big is going to happen to the country, (Im not just talking about his funeral).p-)

If you ask me, I think it would be a good thing for Fidel to openly accept capitalism before he dies, so that he would be going in good standards (Not as a Communist but a CUBAN)with the Cuban people, and insuring that Cuba can start catching up with the rest of the free world.

[Gurdil]

1. Collectivism is self imposed (social contract), otherwise it's tyranny in disguise. Wich fascism and post Civil-War Sovietism were. Wiki is not in any case or form a reference.
Collectivism is self imposed? I never asked to have tax. I never asked to have these government regulations. Collectivism is unfair because it suppose that every individuals are the same.



2. Bankers employ people, use people's money, they are in fact people, read your self again, interdependence, happens every moment. Families being broken? Car accidents, do as much damage as a small civil war, see no one forbidding cars, war as a necessary evil needs no more arguments to hold its own. Plus bankers are the core of free-market, free doesn't mean fair.War can be a necessary evil, this doesn't mean it always the only option or the best option. In the case of Cuba, war is a bad expensive option. Free trade can do a much better job.
And car accidents don't stop during wars.


War is a power up in human engineering, creation and interaction. Without the two WW and the CW you'd be still on morse code and flag signals. I really wonder how did we go from a Z80 8bits 2.5MHZ to a dual Core 2 2Ghz 64bit in less than 30 years then.


3. Hi, nice to meet you, I promise I wont use force unless obtained by popular vote. Yet again marriage is not a form of collectivism, since (unless polygyny/polyandria) your wife/husband is actually "privatised", no one can access her/him for breeding apart you. Now if you're a hard core libertarian...
Collective means it has to be completely open on any one, a marriage is actually a closed entity, wich cannot be joined without the couple's approval (ie birth, adoption, polygamy)A marriage is agreement, a consensus. And these 2 people choose if what type of 'politics' they want. In case of my parents, it is a kind of form of Communism. And I'm not opposed to that. I'm against using force to make me pay.



4. Try Karl Popper and epistemology.

On Cuba, ending the embargo will not mean killing the Cuban Govt. It's only half of the deal, furthermore your process, akwardly, has never ran that smoothly in any country since the late 70's. In every of the freshly market oriented countries (except Viet-Nam and China-how come?) the former masters have managed to get large portions of the economy playing a de facto role in the massive corruption issues that run amok nowadays, why should that be different in Cuba.

All and all, the whole process of "enjoying capitalism" may take a little time, wich in return may lead to the same crap as in the rest of LatAm.

As for edumacashun, the Cuban educative system is good enough, now if you mean sending an imperial tribute (hint), jeez the days of the ottoman empire are long gone.When the people of these asian countries will see that they can get more if they had a freer society, they will move for change.

Latin America has never experienced true Freedom. Pinochet tried free market but only in economics. Freedom is not dividable.


Edit: Poland was never a communist country, heavily sovietized but it still had a state, a police, and the church was tolerated. Nice try, seems you're pretty selective on your memories. Ah and I've tasted "popular democracy" too (Albania), and of a heavier degree, As for the living standart in Cuba before the BWC, actually given the fact Poland was behind Hungary in the mid-80's Cuba was a step ahead (visited Cuba twice, and Cienfuegos it's actually better than some parts of Wroclaw). Will try to find my albanian passport as a proof. Poland was very close to communism. Maybe a few tolerance more than in other countries. But it is not like it was going to change anything

[asch]

main reason of poverty and bad shape of Cuba is not it's regime, but it's proximity to USA.

[Gurdil]

main reason of poverty and bad shape of Cuba is not it's regime, but it's proximity to USA.
like every other country on earth. right?

[asch]

like every other country on earth. right?
not sure to understand you.

[Kilgor]

main reason of poverty and bad shape of Cuba is not it's regime, but it's proximity to USA.

1. Collapse of its main social security cashier, the Soviet Union.
2. The proven inefficiency of a centrally planned economy run by unaccountable leaders.

[asch]

1. Collapse of its main social security cashier, the Soviet Union.
2. The proven inefficiency of a centrally planned economy run by unaccountable leaders.

yup, it's also on the list, but i think that isolation of Cuba and all this embargo idea do more damage than other factors.

[CHERK]

Level of live in Cuba is on par and in some cases is better compared to other countries in the region. Why is it so?

[KoTeMoRe]

1. Collapse of its main social security cashier, the Soviet Union.
2. The proven inefficiency of a centrally planned economy run by unaccountable leaders.


Mhh 2. is bollocks, compared to other nations sourrounding Cuba at least so says the HDI index. So either Centrally planned economies in LatAm work on the same standarts as hit and run US multinational sponsored liberal economies either the HDI index is a soviet sponsored cover up for cuban propaganda.