Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims

[emiljoe]

Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims :fork:




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=ALPC2YWFLZGUPQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2008/01/06/nislam106.xml

Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter, one of the Church of England's most senior bishops warns today.

he Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester and the Church's only Asian bishop, says that people of a different race or faith face physical attack if they live or work in communities dominated by a strict Muslim ideology.

The Muslim Council of Britain today described his comments as "frantic scaremongering", while William Hague, the shadow foreign secretary, said the bishop had "probably put it too strongly".

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said the idea of no-go areas was "a gross caricature of reality".
Writing in The Sunday Telegraph, Bishop Nazir-Ali compares the threat to the use of intimidation by the far-Right, and says that it is becoming increasingly difficult for Christianity to be the nation's public religion in a multifaith, multicultural society.
His comments come as a poll of the General Synod - the Church's parliament - shows that its senior leaders, including bishops, also believe that Britain is being damaged by large-scale immigration.
Bishop Nazir-Ali, who was born in Pakistan, gives warning that attempts are being made to give Britain an increasingly Islamic character by introducing the call to prayer and wider use of sharia law, a legal system based on the Koran.

In an attack on the Government's response to immigration and the influx of "people of other faiths to these shores", he blames its "novel philosophy of multiculturalism" for allowing society to become deeply divided, and accuses ministers of lacking a "moral and spiritual vision".
Echoing Trevor Phillips, the chairman of the Commission for Equalities and Human Rights, who has said that the country is "sleepwalking into segregation", the bishop argues that multiculturalism has led to deep divisions.
David Davis, the shadow home secretary, has accused Muslims of promoting a kind of "voluntary apartheid" by shutting themselves in closed societies and demanding immunity from criticism.
In the Synod survey, to be published this week, bishops, senior clergy and influential churchgoers said that an increasingly multi-faith society threatens the country's Christian heritage and blamed the divisions on the Government's failure to integrate immigrants into their communities.
It found that more than one in three believe that a mass influx of people of other faiths is diluting the Christian nature of Britain and only a quarter feel that they have been integrated into society.
The overwhelming majority - 80 per cent - said that the Government has not upheld the place of religion in public life and up to 63 per cent fear that the Church will be disestablished within a generation, breaking a bond that has existed between the Church and State since the Reformation.
Calls for disestablishment have grown following research showing that attendance at Mass has overtaken the number of worshippers at Church of England Sunday services.
Bishop Nazir-Ali, whose father converted from Islam to Catholicism, was criticised by Ibrahim Mogra, of the Muslim Council of Britain. He said: "It's irresponsible for a man of his position to make these comments.
"He should accept that Britain is a multicultural society in which we are free to follow our religion at the same time as being extremely proud to be British. We wouldn't allow 'no-go' areas to happen. I smell extreme intolerance when people criticise multiculturalism without proper evidence of what has gone wrong."

But the Bishop's concerns are shared by other members of the General Synod.
The Rt Rev Nicholas Reade, the Bishop of Blackburn, which has a large Muslim community, said that it was increasingly difficult for Christians to share their faith in areas where there was a high proportion of immigrants of other faiths.
He believes that increasing pressure will be put on the Government to begin the process of disestablishment and end the preferential status given to the Church of England. "The writing is on the wall," he said.
Gordon Brown relinquished Downing Street's involvement in appointing bishops in one of his first facts as Prime Minister - a move viewed by some as a significant step towards disestablishment.
Last night, Mr Davis said: "Bishop Nazir-Ali has drawn attention to a deeply serious problem. The Government's confused and counter-productive approach risks creating a number of closed societies instead of one open, cohesive one. It generates the risk of encouraging radicalisation and creating home-grown terrorism."
Inayat Bunglawala, assistant secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "Bishop Nazir-Ali appears to be exercised by what he perceives as the decline in the influence of Christianity upon this country, but trying to frantically scaremonger about Islam and Muslims seems to us to be a rather unethical way of trying to reverse this.
"He talks about the rise of 'Islamic extremism' but fails to mention how some of the policies of our government and especially that of the United States in the Middle East over several decades now has clearly contributed to this phenomenon."

[Albatross]

A religion of tolerance and peace my ass.

[Dasein]

A religion of tolerance and peace my ass.

Which one?

[Albatross]

Islam, no religion is perfect but at least they don't try and sell us on the peace and tolerance.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Name one mainstream religion that hasn't been used to promote hatred and violence against others.

They're all the same.

[Annihilator9112]

I say we forget about all Religions and just think as they ndont exist.
60-70% of the wars were because of religion.

[Lazy Lob]

Name one mainstream religion that hasn't been used to promote hatred and violence against others.

They're all the same.

In a historical context you're probably right, nearly all of them. There are exceptions like Jainsim and maybe Buddhism.

But if we take the present and the UK there is one that does tend to wander the path of intolerance a bit too often.

On a side note. Excellent series on BBC2 on Fridays called "Extreme Pilgrim" with the Rev Peter Owen-Jones. Quite watchable.

[Billy No Mates]

I say we forget about all Religions and just think as they ndont exist.
60-70% of the wars were because of religion.

Most wars are about money,power and domination,saying that religion causes most wars is mental laziness most of the biggies have not had religion as the primary cause though it has been used as window dressing .

[Eoin666]

In a historical context you're probably right, nearly all of them. There are exceptions like Jainsim and maybe Buddhism.

But if we take the present and the UK there is one that does tend to wander the path of intolerance a bit too often.

On a side note. Excellent series on BBC2 on Fridays called "Extreme Pilgrim" with the Rev Peter Owen-Jones. Quite watchable.

Which one??? :)

The Ikko Ikki Buddhist sect in Japan in the 1600s were fanatical warriors who often had banners proclaiming that those who "retreat will not attain enlightnement" etc....also the pogroms against the christians by the Tokugawa shogunate, though more political than religious.

Watched that program, the wife, who's a Viet' Buddhist was pretty scathing. Why didn't he just do the temple bit and meditation to start with the whole kung-fu/shaolin deal was ridiculous, he'd never done any training and the fact that the whole shaolin thing is a massive tourist attraction training kids for the chinese film industry, wtf was he hoping to find there

[Mastermind]

Most wars in history were caused by economic competition and power mongering...religion was quite often used as an excuse if not the primary motivation.

Religionists are very effective recruiters..."Your soul is at stake! Fight and die for God and your everlasting salvation is assured!"...Thus, the war "caused" by religion.

The next motivation is clan and land protection. If you can convince the recruits their families, lands and cattle are at risk..."They will enslave your wives and children and they will burn your homes and take your cattle if you don't fight!"...or that "Go to war, you can enslave the other guys women and children, take his land and cattle!" That's the war caused by economics.

Finally, we have the "Go to war, fight and die for my cause or I will arrest you."...The "Vietnam War Syndrome"...also pretty effective.

Simply put, wars are caused by men who just want more.

[kamaz]

way to go off on an ADD trip. lets focus on the article here. There is only 1 faith in the world right now thats doing this kind of thing. We dont see too many Jews or Hindus setting up Jew-only or Buddhist only streets through physical intimidation. Dont remember the last time I've seen a Christian or Baha'ii cut someone's head off to loud cheers of his co-religionists.

lets get real here.

[SOG]

Most wars in history were caused by economic competition and power mongering...religion was quite often used as an excuse if not the primary motivation.

exactly. religion was a form of nationalism used on the poor and uneducated throughout history. with widespread schooling and with the world being more connected, western nations became aware of the ruse of using religion as a primer for war. so instead things such as nationalism replaced such previous notions. look at the western nations wars pre 19th century. a lot of religion involved there. now look at the wars during the 19th century to present (or even post renaissance when education became more widespread way back in the day). a lot of nationalism, economics etc came to the forefront. nations could no longer hide what they were truly fighting for. the reasons became relevant and angered many.

now look at many middle east countries. poor and or uneducated masses, strictly controlled media, with a ruling religious power that ties directly into the government concerning absolute control. just like when? the dark ages.

concerning islam, i do believe it is a religion of peace. many of the people who practice it in western nations are not fruit loops. however when a majority of muslims are still being controlled and manipulated, i wouldn't say it is because of religion but more likely regional power, global economics (oil) and total manipulation of the media in those areas to present a fanatical angle at all times.


as for the article:
if this is really a problem then britain needs to step up in a big way. if this is indeed true and some muslims beat up a brit or kill one it could set off a serious chain of events IE LA riot type deal in which the brits take out the trash on their own. if the brits do nothing, then the problem will continue to worsen like many problems in the US. and for God's sake, do you really want to become like the US? ;)

[vinny_121_ND]

I have to agree with SOG on this one.

[Lazy Lob]

exactly. religion was a form of nationalism used on the poor and uneducated throughout history. with widespread schooling and with the world being more connected, western nations became aware of the ruse of using religion as a primer for war. so instead things such as nationalism replaced such previous notions. look at the western nations wars pre 19th century. a lot of religion involved there. now look at the wars during the 19th century to present (or even post renaissance when education became more widespread way back in the day). a lot of nationalism, economics etc came to the forefront. nations could no longer hide what they were truly fighting for. the reasons became relevant and angered many.

now look at many middle east countries. poor and or uneducated masses, strictly controlled media, with a ruling religious power that ties directly into the government concerning absolute control. just like when? the dark ages.

concerning islam, i do believe it is a religion of peace. many of the people who practice it in western nations are not fruit loops. however when a majority of muslims are still being controlled and manipulated, i wouldn't say it is because of religion but more likely regional power, global economics (oil) and total manipulation of the media in those areas to present a fanatical angle at all times.

Abrahamic religions are a mess of contradictions. Islam even more so but what really puts the cherry on top is that it’s the only book that claims to be fully 100% the direct word of a god. So if you are feeling a bit under the weather and decide to blame society you really will have a god backing you.

To say any Abrahamic religion is peaceful is just as bad as saying it’s warmongering. Take your pick from any passage depending on what mood you’re in. Just another layer on the time wasting cake. Unless you have a vested interest in making us believe Islam stands for peace that is.

I know I’m repeating the obvious but the London bombers were neither poor nor uneducated and they left the world in no doubt that they did it for Islam. That leaves your fruit loop scenario, but I would still disagree. This is generally repeated except in cases like Richard Reid who wasn’t the sharpest tool in the box.

So how much leeway do you want to give this sector of society intent on causing death and mayhem?

That brings me onto Rudyard Kipling’s poem, The Stranger.


The Stranger within my gates,
He may be evil or good,
But I cannot tell what powers control--
What reasons sway his mood;
Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
Shall repossess his blood.

He also made exceedingly good cakes. p-)

[Createdeemcee]

Damn! This is the U.K.??? Hope the P.M. shows them who the parents are in the foster home. Sounds like the begining stages of islamination.

[SOG]

Abrahamic religions are a mess of contradictions.

i don't think they are a mess of contradictions if you fully understand the overall history and time line. however when you compare any book that has been written over hundreds of years, it would appear on the surface that their are serious contradictions. not to mention that we as humans, are hypocritical by nature. the fact that this is represented in such books does not show a falsehood i think, but a very human trait that is to be understood.


Islam even more so but what really puts the cherry on top is that it’s the only book that claims to be fully 100% the direct word of a god. So if you are feeling a bit under the weather and decide to blame society you really will have a god backing you.

well, anyone who thinks they have their back to the wall can make a scapegoat (or try) from just about anything. boss at work, wife, kids, money etc. again, religion can be a primer. and in some cases yes, it can actually be the real reason for all out war in some cases.


To say any Abrahamic religion is peaceful is just as bad as saying it’s warmongering. Take your pick from any passage depending on what mood you’re in. Just another layer on the time wasting cake. Unless you have a vested interest in making us believe Islam stands for peace that is.

i believe it is peaceful because many who practice it "under better conditions' are peaceful. the transition that took place in western culture would be the same if it took place in eastern culture. i think their actions are somewhat dictated by their surroundings. because their surroundings are overly negative in many many ways, they reflect that in many cases. for instance, if the west beleived in islam, and the east believed in christianity etc, then you could easily see how your surroundings affect disposition.


I know I’m repeating the obvious but the London bombers were neither poor nor uneducated and they left the world in no doubt that they did it for Islam. That leaves your fruit loop scenario, but I would still disagree. This is generally repeated except in cases like Richard Reid who wasn’t the sharpest tool in the box.

i do not think they were fruit loops, however, they were/are radical hardliners. they are simply unbending on what they hold to be a truth and cannot be reasoned with to a large degree. they are hateful and corrupted. the current problem is, many such people in the middle east lead a hell of a lot of muslims (or try).

i mean, (for instance) if you look at israel, with the pals, a lot of pals do stupid crap to provoke and fight the israelis. however, the majority do not. how many people actively fight the israelis? thousands? out of millions? you see? even in a controlled culture that is savagely bent against israel with influence by multiple countries, the MAJORITY wishes to remain neutral or at peace to some extent. this has nothing to do with religion, but the very nature of humans themselves.


So how much leeway do you want to give this sector of society intent on causing death and mayhem?

no leeway whatsoever. if they move outside their element in which they are accepted or tolerated then they need to understand this kind of crap won't go whatsoever. if you have muslims causing problems in england, they need to be put down hard. if you have gangs of english nationals causing problems in england, they need to be put down hard. i don't think in this case it is a religious thing per say, but a generational immigration issue with a lots of kinks to settle because of their current history. and until they get settled or are forced to settle, they are going to be unruly little goobers that can be easily manipulated by those with less than good intentions. they need to be parented, corrected and put to work. if that involves a few state sponsored ass kickings then so be it.

[Hollis]

I say we forget about all Religions and just think as they ndont exist.
60-70% of the wars were because of religion.

I agree with Ngati and not your post, religion has been USED, is not what you are saying. Most wars are casues are economics in nature. To get people to fight often the past Patriotism, Religion, Tales of inhuman actions on the part of the enemy is used to get people to fight.

Religion has been just a handy tool, to control people.

[Hollis]

Abrahamic religions are a mess of contradictions.

In another thread or another time we can discuss that. Lot of myths about the "Abrahamic religions" are accepted as truths and taught that way. One might even successfully argue that Islam is not a Abrahamic religion.

Amongst the anti-religious people, religion is all evil. The sad part is that religion and philosophy are the same. So as they damn religion they also damn their own philosophy.

[Lazy Lob]

@SOG

Life can be hard enough without another layer of flawed human thought being thrown into the mix (holy books). Bully for those who find solace in them but no need to go further.

I can follow your train of thought on the ME but that may change as or if their standard of living goes up. They may find they have time on their hands to propagate their way of life. Who wouldn’t?

As for the UK. Our political class are a bunch of roadside syphilitic hookers who’ll bend over for a thruppnee bit, or a vote. Britain maybe in the temporary throws of change towards some kind of a “new” Britain but I doubt it. It seems more like chaos to me. But I’m just a grumpy old git.



In another thread or another time we can discuss that. Lot of myths about the "Abrahamic religions" are accepted as truths and taught that way. One might even successfully argue that Islam is not a Abrahamic religion.

That'd be great with a bottle of single malt and a box of cubans.


Amongst the anti-religious people, religion is all evil. The sad part is that religion and philosophy are the same. So as they damn religion they also damn their own philosophy.

Some religious passages are philosophy others are just xenophobic. Again, take your pick.

[Asheren]

I wouldn't call this attempt to create no go zones as a religious thing. Its just a tactic quite common. Everyone willing to use force and having enough manpower/resouces(not only limited to phisical violence) is able to create such zone from guerrilas to mmogames players.
Main thing is that after such area was established targeted group have three choices.
1)isolation and preventing further expansion
2)mantain strong presence in that area
3)try to remove force that created such area
Now lets look at this considering those islamic no go zone. Anyone is able to see a way to do one of those things without causing PC s..storm?

[shocker1]

Dear Bishop;
Love God with all your heart, love your enemies, treat others as you would have them treat you. I made it so simple, all wrapped up in one sentence for every follower.
Thank you,
Jesus Christ

[Hollis]

That'd be great with a bottle of single malt and a box of cubans.


Some religious passages are philosophy others are just xenophobic. Again, take your pick.

Xenophobia is not just limited to religion.

On your first statment, May a suggest a couple of bottles of a single malt?

[9mmRifle]

Name one mainstream religion that hasn't been used to promote hatred and violence against others.



Ayatollah edicts, Fatwas, Beheadings, Stoning of women etc Islamic culture once upon a time might have offered something to the world but right now its taking the world backwards and is going through the Darkages IMHO

[gilgoul]

What I find quite amusing here is to see where this "debates" goes, while apparently what is at stake is the continuation of UK as a Western Judeo Christian nation.
The question ain't if Allah, God or Yahve ask more blood to their service, nor the comparative values of the three holy books that came out of my damned piece of the world.
But is the UK going to survive it's society changes, either by becoming another Caliphate of by becoming more and more intolerant until it reaches some kind of flashing point that would, whatever god forbid, lead to some kind of violent confrontation between ethnic groups of the Island.
This kind of message usually isn't the kind of sermon given by a bishop, what kind of urgency could have pushed him to do such an un-politically correct declaration?
Could only he do it because he is himself of Asian descent, thus cutting short accusations of racism?

[oldsoak]

@gilgoul - your are not wrong.
HH Nazir Ali is from Pakistan. As he's not WASP, he can therefore point out
in public what we think in private but cant say because we're nasty racists.

[pacifist]

Religion is a waste of time, world would be better of without it.

[Lazy Lob]

@gilgoul - your are not wrong.
HH Nazir Ali is from Pakistan. As he's not WASP, he can therefore point out
in public what we think in private but cant say because we're nasty racists.

Another senior religious figure in a similar situation to Nazir Ali who speaks his mind is the Right Reverend John Sentamu. Originally from Kampala. Good man.


Xenophobia is not just limited to religion.

On your first statment, May a suggest a couple of bottles of a single malt?

I'm sure DW can recommend some of Speyside's best.

[Gulag]

My new motto: Religion sickens me!
World could be so nice without dogmas...

[Zyankali]

I think this quote from "Kingdom of Heaven" fits into this thread very well:

I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here
[points to head]
and here
[points to heart]
and what you decide to do every day, you will be a good man - or not.

[Basillicus]

It all comes down to the fact that especially young men are easy to persuade to do all kinds of things with enormous passion. If some old fart hungry for power has a religion or ideology with which he can promise power, respect, money and/or women in a compelling manner to these guys they'll do anything. Most religions are an ancient symptom of stupidity of man, but whether they are a positive or a negative force depends ultimately on leaders. IMO Islam has a good share of rotten apples, and this combined with powerty and illeducation is a flammable combination.

[Mastermind]

Damn! This is the U.K.??? Hope the P.M. shows them who the parents are in the foster home. Sounds like the begining stages of islamination.

In my humble opinion, Britian and the USA and France and The Netherlands...to name just a few, already passed the beginning point some decades ago. Acceptance of people from the 12th century who refuse to assimilate into the 21st centry was an act of sublime diversification insanity.

[SOG]

My new motto: Religion sickens me!
World could be so nice without dogmas...

i believe it would be the same, replaced by nationalism and phylosophy amongst other side indulgences. unless you can get rid of corruption, power and greed, nothing will EVER change face value.

[Heinemann]

Why are people affraid to say Islam is the problem here? If this occured in Israel by orthadox Jews or in Americas Bible belt by some Christians the media and most people would be all over this quoting Biblical verses and using historical events as "examples."

We as a peoples living in the year 2008 should grow some balls and harden up.

[MaDuce]

Religion has just been used to veil conflicts that are really about resources, land, politics etc... the Isreali/Pali conflict included. Very few wars are primarily about religion. As for the integration of Muslim immigrants in Europe I don't see much hope for that in the near future because it is not politically correct and PCism rules politics.

[Billy No Mates]

My new motto: Religion sickens me!
World could be so nice without dogmas...

Sounds like dogma to me....i guess we just need that in our life,simple slogans for complex problems .

[gilgoul]

@gilgoul - your are not wrong.
HH Nazir Ali is from Pakistan. As he's not WASP, he can therefore point out
in public what we think in private but cant say because we're nasty racists.

So what is in stock for you?
Has the situation degraded so badly that you can't express yourself in your own country?
Expressing reserves about policies, and among them policies of immigration shouldn't be subject to accusations of racism.

This is only brewing a deeper frustration and opening the gates to the worst intolerance and bigotry.
And while I'm all about individual rights, I don't see any need for special minority rights as communities, since once the individual right is protected, so are the rights to congregate and religious freedom.

Good luck.

[gilgoul]

Why are people affraid to say Islam is the problem here? If this occured in Israel by orthadox Jews or in Americas Bible belt by some Christians the media and most people would be all over this quoting Biblical verses and using historical events as "examples."

We as a peoples living in the year 2008 should grow some balls and harden up.

Because if I say this, I'll be suspended for infraction once again for "racist comment", while I am neither racist nor Islamophobic.
Because the scare tactics of many extremists succeed in a world where one is taught from kindergarten to never stand up, but "talk the issue".

[Gulag]

i believe it would be the same, replaced by nationalism and phylosophy amongst other side indulgences. unless you can get rid of corruption, power and greed, nothing will EVER change face value.

Hm, yeah, that's true, sad but true

[oldsoak]

So what is in stock for you?
Has the situation degraded so badly that you can't express yourself in your own country?
Expressing reserves about policies, and among them policies of immigration shouldn't be subject to accusations of racism.

This is only brewing a deeper frustration and opening the gates to the worst intolerance and bigotry.
And while I'm all about individual rights, I don't see any need for special minority rights as communities, since once the individual right is protected, so are the rights to congregate and religious freedom.

Good luck.

- tell me about it, The far left cannot see how they help create the far right by pandering to people who simply are not ready or do not wish to be part of a 21st century western society.
If the far right ever gets political brains we're in the sh*t, because they would become significant enough to create a poltical division within the UK. Currently we have a lot of dissaffected voters who dont feel their fears of becoming a minority on their own soil are being looked at and therefore dont vote. With an politically savvy ultra nationalist party, they might be moved to vote.
Unfortunately, those who will always be caught in the middle will be Jews and those immigrants who have tried to assimilate - they will be seen as having "sold out" by one side and "not native" by the other.
You can always express your views in the Uk - however the consequences of that vary according to which political spectrum you espouse, or the mood of the time, or where you are. For insatnce - ten years ago we were asked not to display the English flag openly as it "intimidated" immigrants :roll: - the last world cup changed that as people felt patriotic and we had black players "flying the flag". It made a nonsense of the lefts claims and they went very quiet. Had the left been more voiciferous, there would have been a backlash. Were it not the fact there might have been innocents caught in the middle, IMHO it was a pity they didnt .

[Billy No Mates]

- tell me about it, The far left cannot see how they help create the far right by pandering to people who simply are not ready or do not wish to be part of a 21st century western society.
If the far right ever gets political brains we're in the sh*t, because they would become significant enough to create a poltical division within the UK. Currently we have a lot of dissaffected voters who dont feel their fears of becoming a minority on their own soil are being looked at and therefore dont vote. With an politically savvy ultra nationalist party, they might be moved to vote.
Unfortunately, those who will always be caught in the middle will be Jews and those immigrants who have tried to assimilate - they will be seen as having "sold out" by one side and "not native" by the other.
You can always express your views in the Uk - however the consequences of that vary according to which political spectrum you espouse, or the mood of the time, or where you are. For insatnce - ten years ago we were asked not to display the English flag openly as it "intimidated" immigrants :roll: - the last world cup changed that as people felt patriotic and we had black players "flying the flag". It made a nonsense of the lefts claims and they went very quiet. Had the left been more voiciferous, there would have been a backlash. Were it not the fact there might have been innocents caught in the middle, IMHO it was a pity they didnt .

Because credible politicians(if their is such a thing anymore) cannot discuss the issue sensibly for fear of being branded racist it will inevitably fall to the loons to rant about and as the issue grows so will the influence of the likes of fat Nick and his British Nasty Party if they are the only ones dealing with(or more likely exploiting) the situation and the fears both real and imagined that Joe Public has about it .

[oldsoak]

@billy-no-mates - you got it in one.

[Hollis]

@billy-no-mates - you got it in one.

^^^^ what he says. That is why it is important for those elected to act and not set on their hands.

[KoTeMoRe]

My new motto: Religion sickens me!
World could be so nice without dogmas...

Actually the word is a Dogma...see we all here are fending some islamic wood, while considering ourselves experts in tolerance and honoris causa in world affairs. The real fact is that the same hypocritical logic applies to us, to our own beliefs.

Because the funny point is that war is still in essence a confrontation of will. And thus a confrontation of beliefs. Religion as a tool? Money as a tool too, what when money did not exist? After all money is fairly new?


It comes to the gun point: Are you on the right side...of the civil religion?

[EsoognomEhT]

Damn! This is the U.K.??? Hope the P.M. shows them who the parents are in the foster home. Sounds like the begining stages of islamination.

I hope that was a joke...

There's always been various "no go" areas within the UK for groups of one type or the other... NI for a bloody obvious start, there's areas I wouldn't want to go because I'm white just as there's areas that not many black people would go etc etc etc.

What the Bishop said it certainly true, but what Mcee said is just err..balls

[Lazy Lob]

Oh what a surprise I nearly chocked on my pickled anchovie.


The Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, is under police protection after he and his family received death threats over his claim that parts of Britain had become “no-go areas” for non-Muslims.

The Bishop is also facing anger from the most senior members of the Church of England hierarchy for his comments on Islam.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, has made Islam a priority of his archiepiscopate and set up a Muslim-Christian forum to promote relations between the faiths in 2006. One senior cleric told The Times yesterday: “The Bishop of Rochester is in effect threatening to undo everything we have done.”

The cleric said that some congregations in cities such as Leicester, where interfaith work was a priority, were increasingly wary of donating money towards this work. Church leaders in towns with a large Muslim population were anxious that relations with their neighbours were being undermined.

Dr Nazir-Ali was in India when staff at his home in Rochester took a number of phone calls threatening his family and warning him that he would not “live long” if he continued to criticise Islam. He has been given an emergency number at Kent Police, along with other undisclosed protection measures, and said that the threats were being taken “seriously”.

Speaking to The Times, Dr Nazir-Ali, who is on the conservative evangelical wing of the Church and is Britain’s only Asian bishop, said: “The irony is that I had similar threats when I was a bishop in Pakistan, but I never thought I would have them here. My point in saying what I did was that Britain had lost its Christian vision, which would have provided the resources to offer hospitality to others.”

He said that this absence of a Christian vision had led to multiculturalism. “Everyone agrees that multiculturalism has had disastrous consequences, and that segregation and extremism have arisen from this.”

The Bishop said in an article in The Sunday Telegraph that Islamic extremists had created no-go areas across Britain where it was too dangerous for nonMuslims to enter. He said that people of a different race or faith faced physical attack if they lived or worked in communities that were dominated by a strict Muslim ideology.

Dr Nazir-Ali told The Times: “I have had 1,000 letters, and 95 per cent have been supportive. There is no point in being in denial. We have to face the consequences.”

The Bishop went further last night with an additional statement posted on his website. He said: “It has been asked what I meant by ‘no-go’ areas. I would wish to make it clear that I was not referring, as some have implied, to the situation which arose in some neighbourhoods in Northern Ireland some years ago which the authorities felt constrained from entering.”

He said that he was referring to a development reported by bodies such as the Commission on Integration and Cohesion last year and Trevor Philips, chairman of the Equality and Human Righjts Commission, more recently. The Bishop said: “This is the phenomenon that is referred to as ‘parallel lives’, ‘separated’ or ‘self-contained’ areas or communities.”

He said that Christian workers in some areas were unable to practise the full range of ministry “either because it is felt to be inadvisable or because of intimidation by extremist views and actions”. In addition, converts to the Christian faith found it “difficult or impossible” to live in certain areas. “This is too widespread a phenomenon to be ignored and deserves proper discussion and debate,” the Bishop said.

“I repeat what I said in an earlier comment, that I deeply regret any hurt and do not wish to cause offence to anyone, let alone my Muslim friends, but unless we diagnose the malaise from which we all suffer we shall not be able to discover the remedy.” Muslims should only be granted the right to broadcast a “call to prayer” from a mosque in Oxford if church bells are allowed to ring out across Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, Christian campaigners said yesterday. Eddie Lyle, chief executive of Open Doors, the missionary agency that serves persecuted Christians, called for “reciprocity” from Muslim countries. The Rev Charlie Cleverly, Rector of St Aldate’s in Oxford, said this week that the proposal for an Islamic call to prayer from a mosque in Oxford should not be approved by the city council.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3292032.ece

[Mastermind]

What a freaking disaster.

[MG 3]

Ive got an idea. March a batallion or two prefrabally mounted on APCs and IFVs through those areas to get the message across. We have tried it and believe me it works wonders.

[oldsoak]

Ive got an idea. March a batallion or two prefrabally mounted on APCs and IFVs through those areas to get the message across. We have tried it and believe me it works wonders.

MG3, you can say that - we cant !

Our problem is that we have a lack of secular Muslims prepared to meet the fundamentalists head on. We have granted asylum to individuals who have been run out of Muslim countries by Muslims who saw them as a threat to progress and stability. Even the Saudis have been astounded by who we sheltered - despite their warnings - and the result has been the slow polarisation of the Muslim community thanks to the insidious twistings of these so called teachers of the faith.

[Lazy Lob]

MG3, you can say that - we cant !

Our problem is that we have a lack of secular Muslims prepared to meet the fundamentalists head on. We have granted asylum to individuals who have been run out of Muslim countries by Muslims who saw them as a threat to progress and stability. Even the Saudis have been astounded by who we sheltered - despite their warnings - and the result has been the slow polarisation of the Muslim community thanks to the insidious twistings of these so called teachers of the faith.

Do you think some one in our electorate will try another 1605 and become Guido 2? We are such a bunch of simmering teapots.

[9mmRifle]

^^^^ what he says. That is why it is important for those elected to act and not set on their hands.

I read Arabic speakers will outnumber English by 2040

[Valkyries]

for those of you who strole around digg
http://www.digg.com/world_news/Bishop_warns_of_no_go_zones_for_non_Muslims_3

[Billy No Mates]

Do you think some one in our electorate will try another 1605 and become Guido 2? We are such a bunch of simmering teapots.

I doubt anyone from our electorate will try it,someone from a place with no electorate at all might have a crack at it .

[junglejim]

Im sorry, im not from Europe so I might not know the background all that well, but isnt racism "I do not like you cause you are not of my race" and not "I do not like you because you espouse violence and the down fall of my country."

Although we are from different backgrounds I totally agree with MG3. UK is a sovereign nation with its own culture, if an immigrant minority doesnt like how things are run in the UK, then by all means kick them out. If they dont want to assimilate, kick them out. Could it be that in the effort of the west trying to be PC, it has been hijacked?