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Hollis
01-07-2008, 09:56 PM
Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

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The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.

About 25,000 people had CCW permits in Michigan before the law changed in 2001.

"I think the general consensus out there from law enforcement is that things were not as bad as we expected," said Woodhaven Police Chief Michael Martin, cochair of the legislative committee for the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. "There are problems with gun violence. But ... I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that what we anticipated didn't happen."

John Lott, a visiting professor at the University of Maryland who has done extensive research on the role of firearms in American society, said the results in Michigan since the law changed don't surprise him.

Academic studies of concealed weapons laws that generally allow citizens to obtain permits have shown different results, Lott said. About two-thirds of the studies suggest the laws reduce crime; the rest show no net effect, he said.

But no peer-reviewed study has ever shown that crime increases when jurisdictions enact changes like those put in place by the Legislature and then-Gov. John Engler in 2000, Lott said.

In Michigan and elsewhere (liberal permitting is the rule in about 40 states), those who seek CCW permits, get training and pay licensing fees tend to be "the kind of people who don't break laws," Lott said.

Nationally, the rate of CCW permits being revoked is very low, he said. State Police reports in Michigan indicate that 2,178 permits have been revoked or suspended since 2001, slightly more than 1% of those issued.

Another State Police report found that 175 Michigan permit holders were convicted of a crime, most of them nonviolent, requiring revocation or suspension of their permits between July 1, 2005, and June 30, 2006.

But even if more armed citizens have not wreaked havoc, some critics of Michigan's law chafe at how it was passed: against stiff opposition in a lame duck legislative session and attached to an appropriation that nullified efforts at repeal by referendum.

Kenneth Levin, a West Bloomfield physician, was one of those critics. In a letter to the Free Press in July 2001, he referred to the "inevitable first victim of road or workplace rage as a result of this law."

Last month, Levin said he suspected "it probably hasn't turned out as bad as I thought. I don't think I was wrong, but my worst fears weren't realized."

But the manner in which the law was enacted was nevertheless "sneaky" and "undemocratic," Levin said.

Other opponents remain convinced that it has contributed to an ongoing epidemic of firearms-related death and destruction.

Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001. Many incidents involving CCW permit holders have not been widely reported, she said.

The most publicized recent case came early in 2007, when a 40-year-old Macomb County woman fired from her vehicle toward the driver of a truck she claimed had cut her off on I-94. Bernadette Headd was convicted of assault and sentenced to two years in prison.

Hamilton said that even if gun violence has ebbed, it remains pervasive, tragic and unnecessary. At the least, a more liberal concealed weapons law means there are more guns in homes and cars and on the street, she said, and more potential for disaster.

Advocates for the law argue that there is nothing equivocal about the experience of the CCW permit holders who have warded off threats and, in a few instances, saved themselves from harm.

In September, a 36-year-old Troy man killed an armed 18-year-old assailant who, with three other suspects, attempted to steal his car outside Detroit Police headquarters.

Michelle Reurink, 40, a consultant in Lansing, got her CCW permit last year, not so much because she felt an imminent threat to her well-being, she said, but because she's a strong believer in the Constitution's Second Amendment -- the right to bear arms.

"The primary reason I got it is because I feel like I have the right to have it," she said.

Still, she doesn't often carry her gun during her daily routine, though she takes it when she and her husband go on their boat, she said.

Having the license and a handgun makes her feel more secure in her home (where no one needs a CCW license to have a gun), she said. She also feels more secure because of the required training, including self-defense lessons, she took as part of the license application.

Mark Cortis of Royal Oak, who conducts concealed weapons license training and sits on the Oakland County gun board, said he believes the benefits of an armed citizenry are evident in small ways almost every day, as permit holders deter trouble and live more confidently.

"The police just can't protect you," Cortis said. "If you have to call 911, it's probably already too late."

Michigander
01-07-2008, 10:13 PM
The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

This is particularly impressive considering how many people have lost their jobs in the state over the past several years. Considering that statistic, I would have expected violent crime involving firearms, including suicides, to rise.

Michigan's recent job loss compares to the Great Depression
Louis Aguilar / The Detroit News
November 2006

A highly-regarded economic forecast to be released in Ann Arbor this morning compares Michigan's massive job loss in the past six years to the Great Depression and paints a bleak picture for the next two years.

Michigan lost 336,000 jobs in the past six years and it will lose another 33,000 in the next two years -- the longest stretch of employment loss in the state since the 1929 stock market crash plunged the nation into bleak times, say University of Michigan economists Joan Crary, George Fulton and Saul Hymans. This time the pain is focused solely in Michigan because of its reliance on the auto industry.

"Michigan is being battered by one of the most tenacious economic storms ever confronted by its citizenry," the economists write in their 28-page forecast. "At no time in its history, or at least as far back as the records take us, has the state endured such a drawn-out disturbance."

http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26895

gaijinsamurai
01-07-2008, 10:48 PM
Of course, people like Michael Moore, Charlie Schumer, and Hillary Clinton will either ignore this or get their people to try to put some anti-gun spin to it.

Still, this report is welcome. Thanks, Hollis.

D-gin
01-08-2008, 12:32 AM
Thanks, HOLLiS.

OhioSquid
01-08-2008, 01:18 AM
Thanks Hollis, and Michigander as well for the economic angle...

LRPV
01-08-2008, 01:29 AM
You lucky Yanks....p-) No CCW here...


D-gin....very becoming avatar :)

nagant_m44
01-08-2008, 01:39 AM
hollis, can you please increase the size of the font?

Hunterhr
01-08-2008, 01:57 AM
"More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records."

If I were a criminal, I'd sure as hell figure that into my thought process (what little they have anyway...)

gilgoul
01-08-2008, 03:35 AM
When at work, I carry in a paddle fobus holster, because it is the most convenient way to do so while crawling in tight caves and moving around all day long.
I also guide a lot of tourists from the US, mostly suburban North American family groups and youth groups coming to visit our dig.
Many ask questions about why I'm carrying and some showed some discomfort at that, while almost all seemed to be completely unaware of they're own right to bear arms in their own country.
Maybe you guys should do some communication on this subject.

orionhawk
01-08-2008, 01:28 PM
The Detroit Free Press had a very entertaining version of this article. Pretty much started out the same way, but then they got anyone they could find to argue against Shall-Issue. Some schmoe immigrant doctor, and the head of the Michigan chapter of Million Moms March. (my first reaction was shame that we have a chapter.) Basically both of them were trying to say that in spite of the numbers saying gun violence has dropped or stayed steady with CPL's in place, more people are being killed because law-abiding citizens can get guns.

frigging protectionist sheeple.:bash:

btw, Hollis, is that the article from MCRGO?

also, it's cool to know there are 154,999 other murderous paranoid vigilantes like myself.

Hollis
01-08-2008, 01:55 PM
frigging protectionist sheeple.:bash:

btw, Hollis, is that the article from MCRGO?

also, it's cool to know there are 154,999 other murderous paranoid vigilantes like myself.


I Don't know, I ripped it from another forum.

I guess we are not alone anymore.

Mastermind
01-08-2008, 05:36 PM
Good one Hollis....and am I the only one to notice the quick silence of the media over the last two mass murder attempts that were thwarted or at least reduced in carnage by citizens who were carrying concealed weapons? The media and the left have a vested interest in disarming U.S. citizens, in spite of the evidence that well armed law abiding citizens are much safer citizens. I just can not figure out the reasons they are so eager to do so.

orionhawk
01-08-2008, 05:51 PM
The media and the left have a vested interest in disarming U.S. citizens, in spite of the evidence that well armed law abiding citizens are much safer citizens. I just can not figure out the reasons they are so eager to do so.

Because the media and pol's get into power by pushing the "victim" thing, and buying votes by welfare. Those who don't want to see that happen are also the ones most likely to react violently to having their earned paychecks given to welfare leeches. Therefore, such "dangerous paranoids" must be disarmed.

Look at what they wanted to ban when they were trying to renew and expand the assault weapons ban: military-style arms such as Garands, 1903's, Enfields and Nagants (in addition to the scary/dangerous black rifles, of course). How often does a 1903 get used in a crime?

I am trying not to sound paranoid, I am really not the tinfoil hat type, but the problem is "in spite of the evidence that well armed law abiding citizens are much safer citizens".

When even the simplest logic says criminals who will rape, rob, and murder innocents will not give up their guns, while citizens will be unarmed, then, unless one assumes the politicos and media-types to be total retards, that leaves the conlusion that the motive is something scarier.:-(

orionhawk
01-08-2008, 05:54 PM
The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

This is particularly impressive considering how many people have lost their jobs in the state over the past several years. Considering that statistic, I would have expected violent crime involving firearms, including suicides, to rise.

Michigan's recent job loss compares to the Great Depression
Louis Aguilar / The Detroit News
November 2006

A highly-regarded economic forecast to be released in Ann Arbor this morning compares Michigan's massive job loss in the past six years to the Great Depression and paints a bleak picture for the next two years.

Michigan lost 336,000 jobs in the past six years and it will lose another 33,000 in the next two years -- the longest stretch of employment loss in the state since the 1929 stock market crash plunged the nation into bleak times, say University of Michigan economists Joan Crary, George Fulton and Saul Hymans. This time the pain is focused solely in Michigan because of its reliance on the auto industry.

"Michigan is being battered by one of the most tenacious economic storms ever confronted by its citizenry," the economists write in their 28-page forecast. "At no time in its history, or at least as far back as the records take us, has the state endured such a drawn-out disturbance."

http://futuremark.yougamers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26895

agreed, good point.