Attacks Leave U.S. Soldier Dead, 10 Hurt

[Seraphim]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030704/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

[Trident-za]

US base coming under mortar attack? Oh man, this is getting bad.... :(

[ibstolidude]

this is nothing new...

This does not indicate things are getting sooo bad for our troops. They have dealt with this kind of situation before. There used to be a guy they called the "Mad Mortman" that would pop mortar rounds off at the US Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo.

It is terrible that troops are getting killed and wounded, but it isn't like they are bumbling around confused how to react, it isn't like they are gettin shot at and going, "what do we do!! ahahahahhahahahahah" They are compitant and trained soldiers, they will act accordingly. This was an invasion what did people expect??? That noone would shoot at us? No soldiers I know expected not to be shot at.

[Trident-za]

this is nothing new...



Actually it is... I'm not sure about the base attack side of things, but this is the first time mortars have been used against coalition troops. That kind of "stand-off" weapon is a bad thing for troops, AND troop morale.

[ibstolidude]

Sorry but the statement you made is incorrect.

This is by no means the first time mortars have been employed against coalition forces in Iraq..But that assumes you are only talking about this Iraq conflict.

And as I stated, speaking with certainty this kind of attack has been employed against US forces in other theaters of operation against the US ( as far as the coalition of forces go off the top of my head I can say that it aslo definately happened to the FFL, the Germans, the Poles.)

The comments in that article are from an NCO:
"This is the first time the base was attacked — and the first time we've seen mortars," said Sgt. Grant Calease. Still, troops at the Balad base were going ahead with a July 4 barbecue. " -
And in no way can one infer that he is talking about the entire theater of operation, unless taken out of context. That assume that this SGt that the reporter walked up to has intimate and ongoing accounts of all operations in theater. In the context of the conversation/interview you comment of "it was the first time" can only be said about that particular base.

And the morale there is definately breaking judging by the party/bbq planned for the 4th.

Mortars have been employed against coalition forces during the ongoing opertaion prior to this incident at the base, maybe it was the first time they were employed against the base.

[Trident-za]

Fair enough... My mistake - I believed the media report, or read it too literally.

Just out of curiosity, could you give me a link to an news report of another mortar attack on coalition troops since 1 May?

[Argyll]

I think it was meant as the 1st time since the decleared ceasation of hostilities(may1st)
That was my interpretation as well.sorry
If mortars are being fired at the camp,this suggest to me several things
1.The camp is a known DF position
2.These are no irregular forces firing them
3.Where are the DF finding radars?

[Argyll]

I think it was meant as the 1st time since the decleared ceasation of hostilities(may1st)
That was my interpretation as well.sorry
If mortars are being fired at the camp,this suggest to me several things
1.The camp is a known DF position
2.These are no irregular forces firing them
3.Where are the DF finding radars?

[ibstolidude]

Why could the mortar attacks not come from irregulars?

Irregulars have used these tactics past conflicts....

I'm just curious were all the assumptions come from. "there have been no mortar attacks since May 01." "These are no irregular forces firing them ". Is the fact that you have not read a media report sufficient evidence to conclude that no mortar attacks have taken place anywhere in Iraq? Does this mean that non-published engagements in Iraq (and Afghanistan even) do not in fact take place. Back in the early days of kosovo the US base at Camp Bondsteel was plagued for a period by a charecter called "the mad mortar-man" that would indiscriminately shoot a mortar or 2 into the camp. Every now and then he would pop up at various places and the US would try and track him down. I don't ever recall this being all that news worthy, but it certainly happened.

Not everything is news worthy, not everything is published. I am also curious why this could not be irregular forces firing the mortar?

Granted I did in fact misinterp.. the original posts to mean that these were the FIRST mortar attacks period, not since the end of the "declared ground war".

certainly trident if I find one I will send your way.

[Argyll]

Ok stoli,
These guys must've had some kind of mortar training to drop a round smack bang into the camp !,Its a pretty skilled thing to do,ask any Mortar MFC!!!! Even more so to do it from a mobile platform!!How many irregular forces train in the use of the mortar,British Infantry Regiments have their own Mortar Platoon,and are classed as specialists,along side Anti Tank,and Assault Pioneers!!If you got your head out of the sand for once you'd know this!!A mortar MFC's job is a very skilled job.
Again when someone posts a reasonable theory you shoot it down without offering anything to prove it's impossible!!
If this guy in Kosovo was dropping rounds into your camp,I would hardly call that indiscriminate,I'd call it pretty fuc*king accurate,the fact that he did it several times also tells me he was no irregular,and that he did have some form of training.It also tells me you didn't carry out Mortar base plate patrols to deter him either,or that you had no Direction Finding kit in operation either

[warchild1/27scout]

you will send what ibsolitude, a mortar round lol

[Argyll]

Nah warchild I wasn't an MFC,I was a MILAN DC!!lol

[ibstolidude]

in kosovo - Yes you figured it out..the largest US firebase (over 7miles or perimter at that time) since vietnam occupied by the 1St armor division and (depends on time) 1st infantry division housing over 3 dozen apaches ..and you were able to accurately assess their actions, reactions, and their tactics, techniques and procedures all from your home....sometimes they hit the camp, sometimes they didn't.

Hell judging by your posts, the coalition should not have sent forces they should have sent YOU...you got the whole war figured out. I've read your posts.

BY irregular forces "Not belonging to a permanent, organized military force: irregular troops" in that catagory includes g-fighter, paramilitary, and the like...many G's have at one time had formal military training.. Are the Arab fighters that went to Bosnia, Chechnia, Afghanistan and now IRaq not irregulars??? They certainly have had the training and have proven themselves in the use of in-direct fire weapons. They have employed such tactics in the past. What REGULAR military do they belong to?
Training does not make you irregular - we have been training irreggulars all over the world for years in south america, middle east, sw asia, ...
The G-s in Afghanistan were shooting Chinese made rockets - with out launchers hooked up to car batteries - sometimes they got lucky, they only need to be lucky once - they also used artillery rounds primed and place on the side of the road to be remote detonated...I guess we were wrong they must have been regular forces, I wonder what REGULAR military they worked for.

Your theory is based on hearsay, on media articles that 1) these are attcks by regular military forces (THEY MUST BE) and 2) (trident) that this is the first attack of its kind (quantified that you actually meant since declaration of end of ground war).

And I still say simply because people have not read about mortar attcks in Iraq DOES NOT mean that they have not happened. Based upon conversations with people there, mortar attacks have happened, maybe not on this base, maybe not employed in that manner.

So far in the description of theories I have been told "prove (you theory) didn't happen" and also "prove anything else could have happened" - make up your minds. Develop a theory and offer/prove the evidence to support it. I have offered no theories I have simply stated that there is no evidence to support yours except guess work. I have only asked questions and made statements that question the evidence of these theories. Generally a theory is offered and then PROVEN to be viable, before it is accepted; all I want is the proof that makes it viable. One news article as your evidence just isn't enough for me. Sorry.

SHow me the evidence for your theory - as former military you know that assumption is the mother of all **** ups.. Nothing angers Murphy more than assuming... We have no idea OTHER than a news article about what took place during and after that mortar attack. Because there the attacks wounded/killed even assumes they hit what they were aiming at! Maybe they went for the fuel depot? Maybe the just let loose into the camp? How large is the camp? Is it an intermediate staging base with 5 miles of perimeter wire? Is a Forward support base with 3 miles of wire? how large of the area is it? Is it possible that they fired on a base that is the size of an airport, and got lucky that it hit an area of population (that would be more likely than hitting an unoccupied area of camp - as camps tend to be occupied)

and No i said nothing of sending a mortar round to trident I was refering to the anrticle should I find one - for trident

And if we choose to disagree, hey Adults can do that...surely in your time as a troop you have had disagreements, it is possible that different people have differnet opinions...but before I buy off on anyones theories I want some facts.

[Argyll]

Stoli,
It seems we are always going to disagree with one another :(
Yes you are perfectly correct,they are my theories,and my opinions,but why can they not be perfectly feasable,there are always 2 sides of the coin
"Asumption is the mother of all fuc* ups".nice line I remember it well,but heres another one if you're going to quote from movies
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
Did he or didn't he(Baghdad Bob!!) say we will draw them into the towns and cities,and we will fight them with unconventional warfare?whether he was talking shi* then,is this not what's happening right now?
If youre using quotes "The first casualty of war is the truth"........how much of what's going on is the truth,from both sides?


Hell judging by your posts, the coalition should not have sent forces they should have sent YOU...you got the whole war figured out. I've read your posts.

If Retired Military Generals,and pissed of troops,and Politicians are allowed to pass comments,why am I not allowed to?Every one is entitled to their opinions,as are you!
You said show me the evidence to back up my theory,when I asked you to show me the evidence it was bollocks 1st!!
You never commented about the use of DF's or the use of Direction Finding kit,if this was within Baghdad area all these Brigade assets mentioned previously in another post should be deployed(Artillery DF kit!!)
Im all in favour of seeing facts too,from both sides of the debate!!

[spier]

Funny really, this happend around the same time Bush, sitting 8000 miles away in a nice and comfy chair, came with his "Bring 'em on" speech...

[ibstolidude]

Not sure what evidence I would show..I've never offered a theory on the situation.
And how can I sitting not in theater, speak about their DF finding caps? In my opnion noone (of those sitting elsewhere - to comment is to guess) can...not even if one reads about it in a news article(ot sees a lack of news articles about it.).

And certainly you should have your opinions different than mine..

I was not quoting from movies movie (well it may be used in film?, but not where I heard, I actually first heard it from my father and many times since - my personal favorite is " a good thing is like a hard-on, **** with it and it goes away").

"chance favor's the prepared mind" we just happen to develop our enemy courses of action differently.

[Argyll]

I like that one Stoli!!!

[ibstolidude]

Glad you liked that one.
Hey atleast we agree on some things!!!

peace dude -

[warchild1/27scout]

this is a good discussion but i want to agree with ibsolitude about mortars. remember the al queada guys in afghanistan were dropping mortar rounds pretty accurately and i don't think thier training was great. argyle i think a guy like me or you could get a quick 2hr course and drop small motars into an encampment that we new the range and everything too. am i tracking the thread correctly that the discussion of organised resistance.

[Argyll]

Warchild,we probably could,given our Military backgrounds,I was more leaning to the MFC point of view.
"Fire Mission over"
"Grid 12345678,enemy sofskinned vehicles in open"
"Fire 1 round for effect!..............incoming!!!
"Drop 200"............................incoming!!
"left 20".........................incoming!!!
"Target............fire 5 round for effect!!".....incoming barrage
"Taget destroyed"
"Have a nice day D32B!!"
Maybe the smaller mortars don't require as much training I agree,but the big 90-120's with their sights/MFC's do!
Its a pity we don't know the calibre,and I guess it doesn't really matter,when these come crashing down around you you don't really care!!!
I've been on the end of an PIRA mortar attack in Fermanagh,where they were using old oxy acetylene bottles as rounds!!,thank fuc*k most of them did not detonate,we were all in the cookhouse at the time too!!,kind of gives you a reality check when you see one of these things bounce off a table in front of you!!

[ibstolidude]

I have seen used up to 60mm on the go to include:
M57 & M70, M2 & m19/w m1 base plate, the m224 all with enough accuracy that I would not choose to be on the recieving end.
Certainly using a like type mortar with handheld or improvised base plate (or light base plate) and a only fair amount of training rapid attacks could be employed
I would be rather surprised to hear about the iraq's pulling up in their m113 mortar carrier equivalant .. although in other places I have seen light mortars in Hilux trucks so anything is possible.


You did hit one of the keys on the head, what size rounds was used.

[ibstolidude]

Even seen mortar attached to camels made to look as if they would be fired from the animal.. although certainly they were used for x-port, they were standing to look as if they were able to be fired. I would like to see that happen...could be rather funny,
how they would hit anything unless direct fired ?? someone way more versed than I would be needed to answer.