Situation of the Neighbours - South America

[pedro_rafael]

Chile asks Peru to be prudent on maritime dispute
+ - 11:07, January 12, 2008

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6336981.html


Chilean Foreign Minister Alejandro Foxley urged Peru on Friday to act prudently before it presses its claim on disputed maritime boundaries with Chile at The Hague's International Court.

Foxley said Peru's demand in The Hague could raise certain voices in Peru that "tend to exacerbate things with comments that lack bases."

"We are not going to fall in the trap of a same game," said Foxley, adding that the Chilean government is not going to give in not even "one millimeter in what has been Chile's position for almost 50 years."

The Chilean government on Thursday formed a consultant team composed of international law experts and former foreign ministers, including some from the former military regimes.

Chile has rejected Peru's demand that the maritime boundaries between the two countries be modified, saying these were fixed in treaties signed in the 1950's. But Peru argues that the treaties are merely fishing accords.

Foxley also rejected the espionage charges by Peruvian former prime minister Carlos Ferrero Costa, which accused Chile of intercepting calls and e-mails to "know things they should not" about Lima's position.

Foxley warned that the positive agenda of the two countries will be harder to implement if the issue causes political disturbance.

Source: Xinhua


///////////Ends/////////////

Peru hasn't bought Billions of Dollars worth of Armament and parked it near their border. Probably should [to replace obsolete systems], but it has not.

Growth, Development and Better Wealth Distribution should be first.

BTW, Fishing in the 50s was [and still is] an important source of income for a lot of people in both countries. Hence the importance given to those accords by both countries.

[pedro_rafael]

12:16
Gonzales Posada discards aggressiveness or "drums of war" with demand on maritime boundary

http://www.andina.com.pe/Espanol/Noticia.aspx?id=uerk3ik0DFQ=

Lima, Jan. 11 (ANDINA) .- The president of Congress, Luis Gonzales Posada, stated that there is not a belligerent attitude on the part of the Peruvian State, for the application to the Maritime Court in The Hague, and rejected that the "drums of war" had been banged.

"Here, there are no war drums, no confrontation, no warmongering. It is simply the sovereign right to have a civilized state that resorts to an international court, appealing to international mechanisms, "he said.

Gonzales Posada said, in submitting the application, Peru is appealing simply to the Pact of Bogotá (http://www.oas.org/juridico/english/treaties/a-42.html) [signed by Peru and Chile], which provides for the peaceful settlement of disputes and drew several exit tracks: bilateral negotiation, mediation and arbitration, which were not accepted [in this case] by Chile in its time.

"Then we go to the court in The Hague to defend our rights and, of course, that does not mean, I repeat, confrontation, warmongering, or sounding drums of war," he added.

The Peruvian Demand seeks to establish the maritime boundary with Chile, in the absence of a treaty in this area, although Santiago argues that under fisheries agreements of 1952 and 1954, the dividing line would be fixed.

The holder of Parliament considered that is taking shape a national position of Peru on this issue, which he said shows a sign of maturity, responsibility and unity among Peruvians, as a State policy.

After reiterating the backing of the Congress to such a claim, he said that on this issue there can be no bending, detours or shotrtcuts, and stressed the need for Peru to project, at the international level, that it is solidly united and compacted around the aforementioned legal dispute.

(END) PHG / GCO


Texto traducido de forma automática

[pedro_rafael]

'Words of Foxley about maritime dispute endarken relations with Chile'
16:25 | Former Ambassador Hugo de Zela highlighted the experience of the committee members who accompany the diplomatic agent Allan Wagner in The Hague

http://www.elcomercio.com.pe/ediciononline/HTML/2008-01-11/palabras-foxley-sobre-diferendo-enrarecen-relaciones-chile.html


Former Ambassador Hugo de Zela felt today that the statements by the Chancellor of Chile, Alejandro Foxley, endarken the relations that Peru mantains with the southern nation.

As you know, this morning the Foreign Minister of Chile declared to Chilean media that the demand on the maritime boundary that Peru will submit in the coming days before the International Court of Justice in The Hague (ICJ) was unacceptable.

De Zela referred to www.elcomercio.com.pe that those statements really call for attention, because on many occasions the Chilean government has indicated that it is prepared to hold in The Hague their point of view, with several parliamentarians from Chile predicting that the judgement will go well for them.

However, he pointed out that this situation should not cause concern in Peru, as "Chile has forced us to go to The Hague, with its continued refusal to sit down and talk harmoniously with a view to finding a solution to the lack of a treaty for the maritime boundaries. "

Regarding the call made to its former Chilean foreign ministers, to form a council to continue the maritime dispute, they will convene some kind of advisory committee, which will give its opinion on the formation of the delegation that will represent them at The Hague.

Consulted by the formation of the group that will accompany the Peruvian diplomat agent, Allan Wagner, expressed his satisfaction, because he believes that its members have experience in the diplomat and professional field, as well as in their respective specialties. However, he considered that it was vital to add a representative of civil and social forces of Tacna. Tacna is the southern-most department of Perú, border with Chile.


Texto traducido de forma automática

[pedro_rafael]

Statements of Foxley qualified as "impertinent"
Asks that Chile worry first about solving their own problems and stops meddling with Peru's

http://www.larepublica.com.pe/content/view/198694/483/

Concerned. Specialists point out that the statements made by Foxley reveal his concerns about Peruvian demand.

The ambassadors Hugo de Zela and Luis Solari Tudela described as "impertinent" the statements made by the Chilean Foreign Minister Alejandro Foxley, requesting from Peru "prudence and sobriety" in relation to the demand our country will submit before the International Court of Justice at The Hague in the coming days.

De Zela said, that the Chancellor confirms the desire of the southern country to pretend to meddle in actions of exclusive competence of the Peruvian government.

"I think we need to say to Mr (Alexander) Foxley, that he simply need to worry qbout assembling his team to hold the Chilean point of view when it comes to the corresponding instance of the Court. First resolve your own problems and not target ours, much less condition us, " said the ambassador.

It should be recalled that, according to statements given by the chancellor Foxley to Radio Cooperativa of Chile, the diplomat said that if the Peruvian demand becomes a "mechanism of political turmoil", the "positive agenda" between Peru and Chile would be much more difficult to implement.

De Zela said that this kind of "warnings" would reveal the weakness of the arguments in the Chilean maritime claim.


CHILE SHOWS NERVIOUSNESS

For the former Vice Chancellor Luis Solari Tudela, statements made by Chilean Foreign Minister Alejandro Foxley, demonstrate that there is nervousness in the southern country by the imminent filing of the sea complaint by Peru before the Court of Justice in The Hague. In that regard, he asked to maintain caution, to avoid provocations.

"We must not fall into the provocations of this gentleman. I think that they have gotten very nervous and have believed that they could prevent Peru from bringing this matter to The Hague," said Solari.

He reminded Foxley that if talking about provocations, then how should we interpret that after 24 hours that Peru submitted the team that will take the case before The Hague, Chile reported that has a billion dollars to acquire weapons of war .


Texto traducido de forma automática


////////////////Ends//////////////


Not so Trivia: A couple of years ago, Chile bought Four Dutch Frigates [2 Type L, and 2 Type M] in similar manner, under a similar uncomfortable [for them]context.

[Tokamak]

I hope both countries don't end up in a war.

[pedro_rafael]

I hope both countries don't end up in a war.


I think that Chile is looking to motivate Peruvian Politicians towards a Bilionaire Spending Spree in Weaponry.

Being in the company of Chavez as the Big Spender [in weapons] when they still have lots of poor/unsatisfied people [and no valid excuse], might get some people nervous, from time to time, to the point that they have recently fast-tracked an amnesty for 15,000 Peruvian Immigrants [~34,000 Chileans visited Peru last month and some of them are staying beyond their welcome].

Appearantly, this sort of lawsuit have made a lot of people there nervous, probably thinking it was only a bluff.

In any case, the real interesting thing, here, is what the Hague is going to say about Peru and Chile "Conceptual Differences" in six or seven years, and the reaction to that ruling. Even more when Peru has embraced Chilean investments [USD 6,000 million] but Chile doesn't reciprocate [USD 50 million].

Regards,


PS: Peru's Central Bank bought today USD437 million [a record purchase] in ther local FOREX market.

[Ordie]

Too bad the fish don't recognize international boundaries.
Joint fisheries management seems the most sensible solution.

[pedro_rafael]

Too bad the fish don't recognize international boundaries.

:)

I'd rather see them using deodorant.



Joint fisheries management seems the most sensible solution.

That is what we have today. You fish here. We fish there. Divided by a simple line, in times with no USD400 GPS available.


Regards,

[Ordie]

:)

That is what we have today. You fish here. We fish there. Divided by a simple line, in times with no USD400 GPS available.


Regards,

It's more than that Pedro. Where the fish spawn, how many tonnage, currents and El Nino are to be taken into consideration. Keep in mind that the issues between the two nations are and will be taken advantage by others including the Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese.

Overfishing is a very serious problem. I stopped purchasing and eating Patagonian Toothfish (Chilean Sea Bass). Fighting over petty border is penny wise pound foolish especially if fish stocks are at stake.

[pedro_rafael]

It's more than that Pedro. Where the fish spawn, how many tonnage, currents and El Nino are to be taken into consideration. Keep in mind that the issues between the two nations are and will be taken advantage by others including the Taiwanese, Chinese and Japanese.

Ordie,

There is a saying in Spanish: Juntos pero no revueltos.

After the agreements, both countries issued several instruments, some of them mentioning the parallel, it went even into school books [argument used by Chileans to argue that even peruvians though that the parallel was/is the limit], as to implement the agreeements.


Overfishing is a very serious problem. I stopped purchasing and eating Patagonian Toothfish (Chilean Sea Bass). Fighting over petty border is penny wise pound foolish especially if fish stocks are at stake.

The only overfishing that we have had came from Onassis and Japanese huge Factory ships. The ministry of Production is doing the best they could to implement quotas, and they stop fishing whenever young specimens are found in the capture.

And agian, nobody is fighting it is only some sort of lawsuit. If you [generally speaking] consider fighting and start blanding the billions of dollars that you have to spend in arms, well i do not know how to call that, and actually i'm not sure if i have to call that anything because i'm not Chilean, and Peru is seeking to avoid future problems [we have had several with Ecuador and others] and clearly defined the borders.

Chile has a stretch of 4,000 kilometers of coast [and that is besides their theory about a presential sea and their claim over the Antartida], so i wouldn't worry about lack of fishing space. In anycase that is a Chilean matter, not Peruvian. This is not a Peruvian excuse, or a misjudgement but a rightful claim.

Regards,

[Tokamak]

Pedro,

Do you have more information on how this problem started?.

Thanks.

[Ordie]

Both Chile and Peru can go to an arbitrator and have a thrid party (perhaps Norway for example) to manage the fishing stocks. I agree that Chile has a alot of coastline, but the Humbolt Current off the coast of Peru is priceless in terms of fishing resources worldwide.

Much of Chile's military is subsidized through the high price of copper sales to China and tied to the % amount as written in the consititution. I don't know where Peru gets funding for its military.

Like Peru, Chile has domestic growing pains to deal with. Blanchet has to deal with Santiago's pollution, poor public transit and education problems. I don't know what the outcome will be in terms of Peru's free trade with the US. The other day I bought a bag of Peruvian onions but I doubt Peru can keep up with US potato production and imports.

If there is a place to worry about, it Bolivia. The longer Morales stays in power, the more likely that country may split. Big question for Peru and Chile is who will recognize the new nation states. More specifically the Santa Cruz region.

Sorry to go off topic, but Latin America once again is the backwater of today's news and dicussions.

[pedro_rafael]

Both Chile and Peru can go to an arbitrator and have a thrid party (perhaps Norway for example) to manage the fishing stocks. I agree that Chile has a alot of coastline, but the Humbolt Current off the coast of Peru is priceless in terms of fishing resources worldwide.

Haven't read the Pact of Bogota [so] but the signataries countries oblige themselves to peaceful solutions of differences. It is clear by now that Peru and Chile do have a [conceptual, some even say view of the world] Difference.

Chile has rejected any bilateral solution. Nothing to Discuss. So, the Hague is the way, and International Law, today, in the XXI Century has provided the means [recent International Court at the Hague rulings on Maritime Disputes, plowed the road]. It wasn't so in the 50s, or even in the 90s.

Besides that, The Peruvian Constitution doesn't allow for Economic Zones wich are not even Exclusive - Peru hasn't signed the LOS convention - because it goes the other way than the Constitution [Territorial Sea].

Furthermore, we Implicitly trust the Chileans to manage fish stocks apropriately on their side. Thus an arbiter to manage stocks is not really necessary here, and i would really prefer a Normegian [Spanish made] Frigate [F-310 (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/FR_KNMFN.JPG/800px-FR_KNMFN.JPG)] than a Norwegian arbiter. The organizer of SITDEF Peru 2007 was a Norwegian or Swedish Company btw.

Chances of getting one of those Frigates is close to Zero or less. Despite the alleged Business is Business posture of some ... Anyway.

And, once again, we can't divert the Humboldt current to accomodate our Chilean neighbours. I wish we could, but we can't. At least not today. In any case they do benefit from the current, albeit not as much as Peru. And that is not our fault, neither was the Guano, or Salitre. Nor is Chile's fault that they are flooded with Copper [their Guano].


Much of Chile's military is subsidized through the high price of copper sales to China and tied to the % amount as written in the consititution. I don't know where Peru gets funding for its military.

I wouldn't call that a Subsidy, since the Chilean Armed Forces do not - as far as i know - generate their own Income. As an example the Peruvian Navy and Air Force are doing so through SIMA and SEMAN.

Peru is implmenting a Defense Fund, and currently there are a few proposals to diversify the sources of income towards that Fund. It is also customary to have Extraordinary Funds Allocation or borrow [a little hard with the tight goals of the Ministry of Economy] from the Seller Country.


Like Peru, Chile has domestic growing pains to deal with. Blanchet has to deal with Santiago's pollution, poor public transit and education problems.

Tell me about it.


I don't know what the outcome will be in terms of Peru's free trade with the US. The other day I bought a bag of Peruvian onions but I doubt Peru can keep up with US potato production and imports.

Do not know that either. However, regarding potato crops, Peru is promoting a bread made of wheat and Potato Flour [to be bought locally from poor farmers] that is supposed to be very tasty and that will avoid, unnecessary wheat imports without any trade barrier or subsidy. Do you see ?


If there is a place to worry about, it Bolivia. The longer Morales stays in power, the more likely that country may split. Big question for Peru and Chile is who will recognize the new nation states. More specifically the Santa Cruz region.

Dude, again, tell me about it. Peru tried to defend Bolivia in the XIX Century, and see what happened. Back then, we had a ~Guardia Nacional, but no Army, so when Rumsfeld suggested recently at a Defense Summit a no Armed Forces but a Guard approach for South American Countries, i can imagine the Peruvian Representative holding back, either, a tremendous laughter or a nuclear fart.

Anyway, I understand that Bolivian regions are requesting administrative autonomy, not Independence. Morales, imitating Chavez, wants a centralized, all powerful state, and the only problem that we may have with Chile here is, again, water, from the Titicaca lake, that is half Peruvian. So, waters have already been divided here, and it can be done again, if they are nice.


Sorry to go off topic, but Latin America once again is the backwater of today's news and dicussions.

It's OK.

Regards,


PS: Central Bank of Peru has purchased USD2.3 billion so far this month. If this keeps up, they may have to start considering to follow the trend and switch to Euro or Yen, unless they can funnel the Foreign reserve excess somewhere else.

[pedro_rafael]

Government of Peru filed today the demand for the Maritime Domain limit with Chile

CASE CONCERNING MARITIME DELIMITATION BETWEEN THE REPUBLIC OF PERU AND THE REPUBLIC OF CHILE

APPLICATION INSTITUTING PROCEEDINGS OF THE REPUBLIC OF PERU

16 January 2008

http://www.andina.com.pe/EDPFiles/EDPWEBPAGE_demand.pdf


To the Registrar
International Court of Justice

I, the undersigned, duly authorized by the Government of the Republic of Peru, of which I am the Agent, have the honour to submit to the International Court of Justice, in accordance with Articles 36 (1) and 40 (1) of its Statute and Article 38 of its Rules, an application instituting proceedings brought by the Republic of Peru against the Republic of Chile in the following case.


I. Subject of the Dispute
1. The dispute between Peru and Chile concerns the delimitation of the boundary between the maritime zones of the two States in the Pacific Ocean, beginning at a point on the coast called Concordia according to the Treaty of 3 June 1929.

The dispute between Peru and Chile also involves the recognition in favour of Peru of a large maritime zone lying within 200 nautical miles of Peru's coast, and thus appertaining to Peru, but which Chile considers to be part of the high seas.


II. The Facts
2. The maritime zones between Chile and Peru have never been delimited by agreement or otherwise. Peru, accordingly, maintains that the delimitation is to be determined by the Court in accordance with customary international law.

3. However, Chile contends that both States have agreed on a maritime delimitation starting at the coast and then proceeding along a parallel of latitude.

Moreover, Chile has refused to recognize Peru's sovereign rights in a maritime area
situated within the limit of 200 nautical miles from its coast (and outside Chile's exclusive economic zone or continental shelf).

4. Since the 1980s, Peru has consistently endeavoured to negotiate the various issues in dispute, but it has constantly met a refusal from Chile to enter into negotiations (see e.g.: Annex 1). By a Note of 10 September 2004 of its Minister of Foreign Affairs (Annex 2), Chile firmly closed the door on negotiations.

III. The Jurisdiction of the Court
5. The jurisdiction of the Court in this case is based on Article XXXI of the American Treaty on Pacific Settlement (Pact of Bogota) of 30 April 1948 (Annex 3).

This provision reads as follows:
"In conformity with Article 36, paragraph 2, of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, the High Contracting Parties declare that they recognize, in relation to any other American State, the jurisdiction of the Court as compulsory ipso facto, without the necessity of any special agreement so long as the present Treaty is in force, in all disputes of a juridical nature that arise among them concerning:

a) The interpretation of a treaty;
b) Any question of international law;
c) The existence of any fact which, if established, would constitute the breach of an international obligation;
d) The nature and extent of the reparation to be made for the breach of an international obligation".

6. Both Peru and Chile are Parties to the Pact of Bogota. No reservation in force at the present date has been made by either Party under the Pact.


IV. The Legal Grounds upon which Peru's CIaims are Based
7. The principles and rules of customary international law governing maritime delimitation, as reflected in the relevant provisions of the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea ("UNCLOS") and developed by the jurisprudence of the International 2ourt of Justice and other tribunals, constitute the main sources of law applicable to the present dispute.

8. The fundamental guiding principle for the delimitation of the exclusive economic zone and the continental shelf between States with adjacent coasts, as expressed in Articles 74 and 83 of the Convention, is that the delimitation "shall be effected by agreement on the basis of international law, as referred to in Article 38 of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, in order to achieve an equitable solution". As interpreted by the recent jurisprudence of the Court, this principle is largely similar to the principle of "equidistance/special circumstances" concerning the delimitation of the territorial sea between States with adjacent coasts, as expressed in Article 15 of the Convention.

9. Under international law, both Peru and Chile are entitled to a maritime domain adjacent to and prolonging their respective land territory to a distance of 200 nautical miles from their baselines. On this basis and due to the geographic configuration of the coast, their entitlements overlap. As long as no agreement has been reached by the Parties in respect of the delimitation of their respective maritime zones and in the absence of special circumstances of such a nature as to put into question the equidistance line, such equidistance line achieves an equitable result. The maritime
boundary between the Parties should be determined accordingly.

10. In contrast, a dividing line along a parallel starting from the coast, advocated by Chile, does not meet the fundamental requirement of achieving an equitable result, nor does it stem from any agreement between the Parties.

11. The delimitation should begin at a point on the coast called Concordia, the terminal point of the land boundary established pursuant to the Treaty and Complementary Protocol to settle the issue of Tacna and Arica -Treaty of Lima- of 3 June 1929 (Annex 4), the coordinates of which are 18" 21' 08" S and 70" 22' 39" W (see Annex 5) and extends to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines established by the Parties. This is in conformity with Article 54, paragraph 2, of the Peruvian Constitution of 1993 (Annex 6), the Peruvian Law No 28621 on the Maritime Domain Baselines of 3 November 2005 (Annex 5), the Peruvian Supreme Decree No 047-2007-RE of l l August 2007 (Annex 7) and Article 596 of the Chilean Civil Code as amended by Law No 18.565 of 23 October 1986 (Annex which all concur in fixing the outer limit of their respective maritime entitlements up to a distance of 200 nautical miles measured from the baselines.

12. Under well established principles and rules of internationa1 law, Peru is also entitled to the maritime areas lying within 200 nautical miles of its baselines and beyond 200 nautical miles from Chile's baselines, and Chile's contentions to the contrary are devoid of merit.


V. Decision Requested
13. Peru requests the Court to determine the course of the boundary between the maritime zones of the two States in accordance with international law, as indicated in Section IV above, and to adjudge and declare that Peru possesses exclusive sovereign rights in the maritime area situated within the limit of 200 nautical miles from its coast but outside Chile's exclusive economic zone or continental shelf.

14. The Government of Peru, further, reserves its right to supplement, amend or modify the present Application in the course of the proceedings.

15. For the purposes of Article 31 (3) of the Statute and Article 35 (1) of the Rules of the Court the Government of Peru declares its intention of exercising the right to designate a Judge ad hoc.

All communications relating to this case should be sent to the Embassy of the Republic of Peru to The Netherlands, Nassauplein 4, 2585 EA, The Hague, The Netherlands.


Respectfully submitted,

Allan Wagner,
Agent of the Government of the
Republic of Peru

[pedro_rafael]

Press Release of the Court

INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE
Peace Palace, Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ The Hague, Netherlands
Tel.: +31 (0)70 302 2323 Fax: +31 (0)70 364 9928
Website: www.icj-cij.org
Press Release
Unofficial
No. 2008/1
16 January 2008

Peru institutes proceedings against Chile with regard to a dispute concerning maritime delimitation between the two States

THE HAGUE, 16 January 2008. Today Peru instituted proceedings against Chile before the International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial organ of the United Nations, concerning a dispute in relation, on the one hand, to “the delimitation of the boundary between the maritime zones of the two States in the Pacific Ocean, beginning at a point on the coast called Concordia, . . . the terminal point of the land boundary established pursuant to the Treaty . . . of 3 June 19291”, and, on the other, to the recognition in favour of Peru of a “maritime zone lying within 200 nautical miles of Peru’s coast, and thus appertaining to Peru, but which Chile considers to be part of the high seas”.

In its Application Peru claims that “the maritime zones between Chile and Peru have never been delimited by agreement or otherwise” and that accordingly, “the delimitation is to be determined by the Court in accordance with customary international law”. Peru explains that “since the 1980s, [it] has consistently endeavoured to negotiate the various issues in dispute, but . . . has constantly met a refusal from Chile to enter into negotiations”. It asserts that as a result of a Note of 10 September 2004 from the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Chile addressed to the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Peru, further attempts at negotiations were no longer possible.

Peru now “requests the Court to determine the course of the boundary between the maritime zones of the two States in accordance with international law . . . and to adjudge and declare that Peru possesses exclusive sovereign rights in the maritime area situated within the limit of 200 nautical miles from its coast but outside Chile’s exclusive economic zone or continental shelf”.

As the basis for the Court’s jurisdiction, Peru invokes Article XXXI of the American Treaty on Pacific Settlement (Pact of Bogotá) of 30 April 1948, to which both States are parties without reservation. This Article provides that: “In conformity with Article 36, paragraph 2, of the Statute of the International Court of Justice, the High Contracting Parties declare that they recognize, in relation to any other American State, the jurisdiction of the Court as compulsory ipso facto, without the necessity of any special agreement so long as the present Treaty is in force, in all disputes of a judicial nature that arise among them concerning:

-1-Treaty between Chile and Peru for the settlement of the dispute regarding Tacna and Arica, signed at Lima on 3 June 1929.
- 2 -
(a) The interpretation of a treaty;
(b) Any question of international law;
(c) The existence of any fact which, if established, would constitute the breach of an international obligation;
(d) The nature or extent of the reparation to be made for the breach of an international obligation.”
___________
The full text of Peru’s Application instituting proceedings will shortly be available on the Court’s website (www.icj-cij.org).
___________
Information Department:
Mrs. Laurence Blairon, Secretary of the Court, Head of Department (+31 (0)70 302 2336)
Messrs. Boris Heim and Maxime Schouppe, Information Officers (+31 (0)70 302 2337)
Ms Joanne Moore, Associate Information Officer (+31 (0)70 302 2394)

[Tokamak]

Good luck to both countries.

[pedro_rafael]

14:34
Chile calls home its Ambassador to Peru

http://www.andina.com.pe/Ingles/Noticia.aspx?id=BR6jNWEKuhU=

Lima, Jan. 17 (ANDINA).- Chile summoned home its ambassador to Peru, Cristian Barros, for consultations amid a dispute over the countries' maritime boundary.

Peru filed a demand yesterday with the International Court of Justice at The Hague, Netherlands, requesting its assistance to resolve a maritime border dispute with Chile.

Chilean Foreign Minister Alejandro Foxley said ambassador Barros was due in Santiago Thursday or Friday "for a long conversation."

“Barros is going to be here in Chile as long as we considere his presence neccessary, after that he Hill go bacjk to Lima”, he said.

According to Chilean newspaper “El Mercurio”, Foxley stated he would no talk about Peru’s representatives comments.

He insisted on saying that Chile has solid arguments to support its defense at The Hague.

Summing an ambassador is a way governments show displeasure over actions of other countries.

Peru argues that no legal line exists between the two countries, adding the line should run southwesterly from the coast.

Chile insists treaties in 1952 and 1954 set the boundary running due west.

Chile's government issued a statement yesterday saying that Peru is actually claiming fishing-rich areas in the Pacific Ocean "that are unquestionably under Chilean sovereignty and jurisdiction."

By taking the case to the court in The Hague, Peru "fails to recognize valid treaties existing between the two countries and also fails to recognize the practice of decades of implementation of those treaties," Chilean government added.

Chile's relations with Peru and Bolivia have often been strained by disputes stemming from the 1879-1884 War of the Pacific, in which Chile seized territory from both neighbors - including Bolivia's only coastline.

(END) FPQ/LVT


Meaning ... You are Fiiiiired !!!

[pedro_rafael]

14:56
Peru rules out to call home its ambassador to Chile

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_Andina_0001.jpg (http://www.andina.com.pe/)


Lima, Jan. 17 (ANDINA).- Peru ruled out to summon its ambassador to Chile and will remain “responsibly prudent and calm” against Chile’s arguments over the maritime lawsuit filed in The Hague’s Court yesterday, Peruvian Foreign Affairs Minister, José Antonio García Belaunde, said today.

He stated it was expected that Chile would summon his ambassador to Peru, Cristian Barros, but said “why should we do the same with the Peruvian ambassador to Santiago?”.

“Don’t forget that ambassador Barros has been viceminister and he knows Peru very well. I suspect that Chile’s authoritites want long conversations instead of talking on the phone to know what ambassador Barros might offer”, he said to CPN Radio.

He added that the relationship with Chile “has never been easy” but said that “it is important to keep this relationship” because both countries are neighbours and have common interests.

On the other hand, García Belaunde said that Ecuador might be called to declare before the The Hague, since it was part of the Declaration of Santiago, one of the instruments that form the legal framework that will allow a solution to the dispute.

García Belaunde said that both countries have “a very good relationship” keeping in mind that both presidents and their cabinets met in the frontier to elaborate a joint work agenda.

(END) JCP/GCO/LGV/LVT

[pedro_rafael]

And that is not an arms race
13:46
Peru has the right to upgrade its Armed Forces capabilities, said vice president Giampietri

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_Andina_0001.jpg (http://www.andina.com.pe/)


Lima, Jan.. 17 (ANDEAN) .- Peru has the right to "upgrade" its armed forces and this should not be seen as an arms race, said today the first vice president of the Republic, Luis Giampietri.

He said that Peru is not "an aggressive country," but it worries about its defense and needs, in this regard, some Armed Forces as a viable deterrent are definitely needed.

"Peru has the right to modernize (its armed forces) in accordance with the funds (which holds) available, and that is not an arms race," he said.

He said that the country must have armed forces to help take a "strong position" to any circumstance that might arise in the future.

He noted that Chile can make significant purchases of arms and military equipment because it has financial resources to do so.

"We have to have a defence force that will prevent any aggression, and in that road we are progressing," he noted.

On the other hand, some politicians considered incomprehensible that Bolivians expressed their concern at the demand of Peru to Court in the Hague by the maritime dispute with Chile, that would be an impediment to the eventual exit to the sea by this landlocked country.

"I do not know why this concern (?) Peru would only be involved in this matter if Peruvian territories lost after the war with Chile were to be delivered to Bolivia, in accordance to the treaty of 1929" believed.

"In this case I do not see what their concern is all about, unless they have a deal with Chile that we do not know," he added.

(END) FPQ / GCO

Texto traducido de forma automática

[pedro_rafael]

Reactions from Retired Personnel from the Armed forces of Peru:

"Armed Forces [FFAA] should not intervene in Maritime [Legal] Dispute with Chile"

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_expreso_0001.jpg (http://www.expreso.com.pe/)


Members of the Peruvian Armed Forces believe that military institutions should not intervene in the proceedings before the Hague, and rather concentrate on preparing to defend the Peruvian sovereignty in a possible war with Chile.

In this regard, they requested the government to assume the political decision to boost the equipment of the FFAA.

The former general commander of the FAP, Orlando Denegri, recommended that the FFAA stay out of the dispute with Chile, in respecto to the process before the Hague, because it is a legal matter that is borne by the government.

Considered out-of-character that representatives of the FFAA speak out on this subject, because this is not its function, and could worsen the climate of tension, specially in the southern country, that already exists between the two countries.

The former general commander of the Army [EP] General, José A. Graham argued that the armed forces should maintain calm and prudence in this process, and starte preparing to wage what he considers inevitable: a military confrontation with Chile.

Automatically Trasnlated Text

////////Ends//////////////

General Graham is known for its slogan 'The War is Tomorrow' and despite not having upgraded/modern equipment, he put on practice a feverish regime of training in the army.


And regarding upgrades or purchases, well, as somebody once said, show us the fat wallet ...

[pedro_rafael]

Reactions in Chile ...

Incompetence of the Hague should not be considered

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_expreso_0001.jpg (http://www.expreso.com.pe/)


The leader of the Chilean Humanist Party, Tomas Hirsch, suggested yesterday that the call home of Santiago's ambassador in Lima, Cristian Barros, was "totally unnecessary", even more "when they believe they are right", and hoped that Chile is not raising the incompetence of the Court in The Hague, regarding the application submitted by Peru in the field of the maritime dispute.

"At the time, Chile said that if Peru goes to The Hague, they too would go. I have an important difference and I think that the tantrum of the [Chilean] government, the discomfort, anger and call of ambassador (Barros) is completely unnecessary, specially, when it is believed that they have the reason, "said the former southerner presidential candidate.

Hirsch said coincides with the Chilean thesis that there is no outstanding border situation, but felt "perfectly understandable the Peruvian demand" and to look to the court in The Hague, which is "an impartial instance impartial and legally of high level."

"I think it would be absolutely impresentable that either side [Note: Peru can't question the competence of the Court, since it is asking for its assistance] requested incompetence and therefore rejects its authority", scored.

He felt that this option would not be covered by Chile, to the point that chancellor Foxley already appointed a team to act in this case at The Hague.

/////////Ends/////////

Texto traducido de forma automática


Note: Chile is called by Chileans: Chilito [Small Spoiled Chile].

[pedro_rafael]

Chilean Senate: Ecuadorian Posture strengthens Chile versus Perú

Saturday, January 19, 2008
15:54
AFP

http://www.emol.com/noticias/nacional/detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=289395

SANTIAGO .- Chilean senators said that the fact that Ecuador recognizes the validity of the maritime 'treaties' signed with Peru and Chile, half a century ago strengthens the Chilean position regarding the Peruvian maritime border demand before the Court in The Hague.

The Ecuadorian Foreign Ministry said on Friday that Quito closely follows a lawsuit brought by Peru on the maritime boundary with Chile. This process involves indirectly Ecuador, since it involves the interpretation of the Santiago Declaration of 1952 and the 'Agreement on the Special Zone of Maritime Borders of 1954', signed by the three countries.

"There is an Ecuadorian interest in this process that continues in The Hague, because Peru is trying to ignore the treaty value, that according to us and Ecuador have these signed agreements of 1952 and 1954," said Senator Jaime Gazmuri to oficiallist Radio Cooperativa.

According Gazmuri the Ecuadorian position "strengthens the legal position" of Chile, and that another State which is a signatory to these conventions gives them "the nature of international treaty, because these agreements have been registered as such by the United Nations in its opportunity."

Meanwhile, opposition Senator Juan Antonio Coloma indicated that "the maritime boundary between Ecuador and Peru followed the logic of parallel, the same as Chile continues with Peru, then I think that the most important thing is that this shows what Peru is trying to do. "

Lima presented on Wednesday before the International Court at The Hague a lawsuit that seeks to recognize an area of 95,000 km2 of litigation, of ch claimes some 66,000 km2.

Chile maintains that the maritime boundary was demarcated by agreements signed in 1952 and 1954, but Peru believes that these documents are only regulatory fishing and can not be considered borderline treaties.

///////////////Ends///////////////


Texto traducido de forma automática


Note: The frontier situation between Peru-Ecuador and Peru-Chile is different, and can not be compared, since at the frontier between Peru and Ecuador exist Ecuadorian iSlands that distort any attempt to limitate the boundary. Thus the parallel is specifically designed for the case of islands amidst the boundaries [within the fishery agreements]. No such islands exist between Peru and Chile.

[pedro_rafael]

11:06
Mac Lean: Peru defends not only a maritime strip but the international order of the 21st century

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_Andina_0001.jpg (http://www.andina.com.pe/)


Lima, Jan. 22 (ANDINA) .- Peru is not only defending a strip at sea, to go to the court in The Hague, but "justice and the overall international order of the 21 st century", said today Roberto Mac Lean, a member of the Peruvian delegation appointed by the Government to see this legal dispute with Chile.

He said that in his case, he participates in the defense of the Peruvian position as a matter of "professional conviction" about the matter, and said that would take similar position if he had another nationality and was hired by any other country.

"What we are advocating is not just a strip, we are defending justice and a comprehensive international order for the 21st century," said Mac Lean, a former member of the Permanent Court of International Arbitration in The Hague.

"We are going (to The Hague) not to defend Peru. My professional belief tells me that we are defending the settlement with conviction (that reason is ours), which i would pursue if i were (for example) Colombian," scored in statements to CPN Radio.

On the other hand, he said that Ecuador and Bolivia do not have to feel being part of the process of maritime delimitation with Chile.

"Bolivia, I do not see how, Ecuador neither. However, in so far as Ecuador, it is part of these agreements, a fact that Chile argues in its favour, so the COurt will have to notificate them and is a decision of the Ecuadorian government if they have something to say, "he added.

Asked about the proposal for congressional travel to Ecuador and Bolivia to explain the position of Peru, stated that it is incumbent upon the Chancellor to decide all matters related to this process.

He said that if a congressman has some kind of approach or suggestion about this subject, it shall be submitted to the Foreign Ministry which has the total perspective of this issue. "

He said that Peru and Chile are countries with traumatized communities, the first by terrorism, and the second by the late dictator Augusto Pinochet.

He mentioned that an authoritarian culture leaves invisible damage as a result in the country.

"The economic development of Chile is like that of the people. There can be a businessman who can be extremely competitive, develops an empire, but emotionally remains a child, with weakness of character. Humans do not evolve evenly, this also happens to the people, "he added.

(END) FPQ / GCO


Automatically Translated Text / Texto traducido de forma automática

[Tokamak]

Is there any real chance for the Periuvian Army to get upgraded in case of a war with Chile?.

[pedro_rafael]

Is there any real chance for the Periuvian Army to get upgraded in case of a war with Chile?.

The current government of Peru have several problems to deal with,prior to funding purchases of Weapon Systems:

1. Strict Budgetary goals lined by the Ministry of Economy.
2. No Consensus Agreement for a Defense Policy. The guidelines are there [Peru even have a White Paper] but no real consensus to back up the paper.
3. Poverty. The official goal for 2008 is to reduce poverty 8 percentage points to 42%. These index should be at 30% at 2011. It is expected to be lower though.

Chile - it is true - seems to be pushing for distressing our poor people [prompting a spending spree] before 2011, when it would be correct to really upgrade the armed forces [2011].

3. Some Peruvian People seem not to understand that the government is not Dadda, and that they must individually help to create a DEFENSE policy, a true reality; meaning stop criticizing so much everybody, anybody, and try and do something positive about their life situation and at the same time, promote Peru. An utterly difficult enterprise, so, you must be brave and persistent.

As a sample, Internet is plagued by non-Peruvian people pushing their problems onto others, through demeaning, self-esteem attacks and discrimination of other's people customs, problems, shortcomings and culture. Not gonna mention examples, but a couple of near-by counjtry-names come to mind.

We can not afford either to fall in a situation llike Mexico [despite some neighbour's efforts on that sense], where immigration is completely blocking any attempt on getting real armed forces, not people faking it. They have the funds, but they can't afford Real armed Forces.

4. Timeline and gap capabilities: It has been a custom of peruvian governments to try and keep ahead of events, through urgency measures. When reality comes knocking on our door, innovation helps, but not that much, so Peru needs to be prepared for bridge capability gaps. As an example, during the relief effort organized after the Pisco Earthquake, the armed forces needed more helicopters [13 of the precious Mi-17 were in Russia], so if they are going to upgrade the Fulcrums, what is the FAp going to use in the meantime to defend our territory ??

Capability gaps, here, clearly show, no organized policy but isolated effort to show will, but in reality the fear of scaring investors [the terrorism years did not help peru's image and/or economy, and it still clings on world's memory] away with military expenditure are, in fact, avoiding any real upgrade.

5. International Community opinion:

It still a painful memory, that of the Salitre War [1979-1883] where the International Community did not help [a bit] the Peruvian efforts to acquire warships that could have ended the war without further loss of blood.

The only country that helped Peru was Costa Rica [rifles, as ~thanks for helping them deal with filibusters] and a few US Companies with interests in Peru [with Torpedo boats].

So, nobody wants that FRAME to happen again. So, the government is being reallly, but really careful. And, It is not that they are cheap [6 german Subs on inventory doesn't come from cheap people], but they are trying to implement accountability with the people's money, and see if sound business can be promoted.

6. The message of the Peruvian Government here, is, WE ARE NOT AGRESSIVE, we are not the USSR [impression from the 70s with the purchase of soviet arms, sorry, peru needed them, bad, but not falling into pledging alliances] and you [whoever you are] are not the US, fighting for freedom [whatever freedom you might think you are fighting for].

You are what you are, and you have to deal with the problems/mistakes/situations you've created along the way. Peru has real problems, and it is trying to deal with them effectively [albeit in a slow, exasperating way] so no need to fake it here, to appear cool, macho or whatever.

7. Up to recently, the Peruvian Armed Forces were strong enough to create a Credible Deterrence force to our neighbours. The T-55 is good enough - with a couple of tweaks - to deal with leopard 1 ands AMX-30. Brazil would need a loooooong time to field forces in our frontiers, Ecuaodr would go bankrupt big time if they try anything funny, Colombia, well, Colombia is Colombia and they have the FARC and Chavez [loving them but hating them].

8. The 'lawsuit' against Chile comes after extreme patience form Peru on the implementation of several peace instruments dating back more than 100 years. Chile has outdone itself to elongate their wellness feeling emanating from winning the Salitre War against an unprepared neighbour, that 15 years before defend them against Spanish vessels.

That war, is one of many conflicts that peru have had along its history, it is a chapter, as painful as an auto-goal in a soccer match can be. We've never wanted to invade Chile, nor envy their current position [whatever that is], Peru only needs to secure its borders definitely with comprehensive Limit Treaties, not with Fishery Agreements that MAY be interpreted as this or that.

9. Chile seems to be willing to open several fronts in the maritime dispute, involving Ecuador [Peru is OK with the maritime situation with Ecuador but, still, no formal treaty has been signed] and even Bolivia. Ecuador is going to be involved anyway, but Chilean timing is well off. BTW, Colombia is also a signatory [joined it later] of the Declaration of 1952 [established the 200 mile wide maritime domain], but it does have an Specific, Formal Maritime Border treaty with Ecuador,

10. Finally, chances of upgrading Armed Forces after or during the fact, are very slim, and the result dubious.

Saludos,

[Tokamak]

The current government of Peru have several problems to deal with,prior to funding purchases of Weapon Systems:

1. Strict Budgetary goals lined by the Ministry of Economy.
2. No Consensus Agreement for a Defense Policy. The guidelines are there [Peru even have a White Paper] but no real consensus to back up the paper.
3. Poverty. The official goal for 2008 is to reduce poverty 8 percentage points to 42%. These index should be at 30% at 2011. It is expected to be lower though.

Chile - it is true - seems to be pushing for distressing our poor people [prompting a spending spree] before 2011, when it would be correct to really upgrade the armed forces [2011].

3. Some Peruvian People seem not to understand that the government is not Dadda, and that they must individually help to create a DEFENSE policy, a true reality; meaning stop criticizing so much everybody, anybody, and try and do something positive about their life situation and at the same time, promote Peru. An utterly difficult enterprise, so, you must be brave and persistent.

As a sample, Internet is plagued by non-Peruvian people pushing their problems onto others, through demeaning, self-esteem attacks and discrimination of other's people customs, problems, shortcomings and culture. Not gonna mention examples, but a couple of near-by counjtry-names come to mind.

We can not afford either to fall in a situation llike Mexico [despite some neighbour's efforts on that sense], where immigration is completely blocking any attempt on getting real armed forces, not people faking it. They have the funds, but they can't afford Real armed Forces.

4. Timeline and gap capabilities: It has been a custom of peruvian governments to try and keep ahead of events, through urgency measures. When reality comes knocking on our door, innovation helps, but not that much, so Peru needs to be prepared for bridge capability gaps. As an example, during the relief effort organized after the Pisco Earthquake, the armed forces needed more helicopters [13 of the precious Mi-17 were in Russia], so if they are going to upgrade the Fulcrums, what is the FAp going to use in the meantime to defend our territory ??

Capability gaps, here, clearly show, no organized policy but isolated effort to show will, but in reality the fear of scaring investors [the terrorism years did not help peru's image and/or economy, and it still clings on world's memory] away with military expenditure are, in fact, avoiding any real upgrade.

5. International Community opinion:

It still a painful memory, that of the Salitre War [1979-1883] where the International Community did not help [a bit] the Peruvian efforts to acquire warships that could have ended the war without further loss of blood.

The only country that helped Peru was Costa Rica [rifles, as ~thanks for helping them deal with filibusters] and a few US Companies with interests in Peru [with Torpedo boats].

So, nobody wants that FRAME to happen again. So, the government is being reallly, but really careful. And, It is not that they are cheap [6 german Subs on inventory doesn't come from cheap people], but they are trying to implement accountability with the people's money, and see if sound business can be promoted.

6. The message of the Peruvian Government here, is, WE ARE NOT AGRESSIVE, we are not the USSR [impression from the 70s with the purchase of soviet arms, sorry, peru needed them, bad, but not falling into pledging alliances] and you [whoever you are] are not the US, fighting for freedom [whatever freedom you might think you are fighting for].

You are what you are, and you have to deal with the problems/mistakes/situations you've created along the way. Peru has real problems, and it is trying to deal with them effectively [albeit in a slow, exasperating way] so no need to fake it here, to appear cool, macho or whatever.

7. Up to recently, the Peruvian Armed Forces were strong enough to create a Credible Deterrence force to our neighbours. The T-55 is good enough - with a couple of tweaks - to deal with leopard 1 ands AMX-30. Brazil would need a loooooong time to field forces in our frontiers, Ecuaodr would go bankrupt big time if they try anything funny, Colombia, well, Colombia is Colombia and they have the FARC and Chavez [loving them but hating them].

8. The 'lawsuit' against Chile comes after extreme patience form Peru on the implementation of several peace instruments dating back more than 100 years. Chile has outdone itself to elongate their wellness feeling emanating from winning the Salitre War against an unprepared neighbour, that 15 years before defend them against Spanish vessels.

That war, is one of many conflicts that peru have had along its history, it is a chapter, as painful as an auto-goal in a soccer match can be. We've never wanted to invade Chile, nor envy their current position [whatever that is], Peru only needs to secure its borders definitely with comprehensive Limit Treaties, not with Fishery Agreements that MAY be interpreted as this or that.

9. Chile seems to be willing to open several fronts in the maritime dispute, involving Ecuador [Peru is OK with the maritime situation with Ecuador but, still, no formal treaty has been signed] and even Bolivia. Ecuador is going to be involved anyway, but Chilean timing is well off. BTW, Colombia is also a signatory [joined it later] of the Declaration of 1952 [established the 200 mile wide maritime domain], but it does have an Specific, Formal Maritime Border treaty with Ecuador,

10. Finally, chances of upgrading Armed Forces after or during the fact, are very slim, and the result dubious.

Saludos,

Sorry to ask, but does Peru have 50% poverty at the moment?.
Second question could you explain more about the case of Mexico?.

Thanks.

[pedro_rafael]

Sorry to ask, but does Peru have 50% poverty at the moment?.

Poverty in Peru has its own background:

1960s: Guerrillas are formed and are subsequently defeated by the army. Civilian government is ousted.

1970s: Agro Reform - Military government gave back land to the poor. As a non-representative sample, one of the maids [her family] we had at my family house in Lima, had land in Cajamarca [10 hectares if recall it right] an no intention on selling it.

Inward Economic Development [replacing imports with local products] fails.

War with Chile is avoided through dissuasion. Peru proves responsibility. Having the means to, but restraining from using armed forces to help its own development.

Early 1980s: Back to Democracy. Another conflict with Ecuador. Market opens to imports. Inflation starts gearing up. Terrorism starts early attacks and government consider it isolated events.

Mid 1980s: Alan Garcia in the government. Goes to the United Nations and readies his oratory capabilities [as dangerous as the Bismarck] and lashes against any form of empire. Decides to cut the external debt payments to 10% of exports. Tries to Nationalize the Financial System. Bankers resist. Hyperinflation starts with record numbers. Terrorism lashes out in the Highlands. Chip-chop people for the fun of it. Negotiations with Chile to finally settle outstanding treaty issues from the old Salitre War are ongoing.

1990s: Fujimori Dissolves Congress and rules with Miitary back-up. Terrorism ventures into cities, even ramming trucks with 1 Ton of explosives into buildings, TV Stations, Embassies, Police precints, ambushes police and armed forces armed with RPGs and so on. Almost succesful in liberating a zone within Peru [the red zone] but the army quickly reacts and defeats them. Unfortunately, collateral damage is high. Ecuador invades again. Fujimori settle with Chile on land treaty issues. Peru recovers from a 30 year struggle.

2000s: Fujimori resigns. Toledo assumes presidency and lets the market fix itself. Lashes against the armed forces reducing their budget and halting any upgrade. Peru starts growing [not recovery, but growth].

Mid to Late 2000s: Alan Garcia takes economic development to the next level and despite international impending crisis, Peru grows at 8%.

So, yes Peru has ~50% poverty. You can read it here:

http://batallonzepita.com/grupo_de_tarea_0275/viewtopic.php?p=9019&sid=bffd573494e60ee724ea0a98854963be#9019


FAP has reinititated Civic flights [suspended for years due to lack of funds] with An-32s to isolated areas in the jungle:
http://batallonzepita.com/grupo_de_tarea_0275/viewtopic.php?p=9020#9020

MGP celebrated another anniversary of the service of the 4 Landing Tank Ships, obsolete by any modern standard, but extremely helpful in the relief effort after the Pisco Earthquake in 2007:
http://batallonzepita.com/grupo_de_tarea_0275/viewtopic.php?p=9021#9021

So, you decide whether armed forces is a expenditure or an investment. And when is expenditure and when an investment. In the XIX century [before the salitre war] the civil government that dissolved the army, opted to invest in public infrastructure, railroads, much of that was destroyed a few years later in the war.



Second question could you explain more about the case of Mexico?.

Yes I can, but i won't because i'm not Mexican. Sorry. I only talk when they interfere with Peru, and their immigrants are not only messing [big time] with their own country, they are messing with everybody in order to justify their being here [USA} and working for another country.

We have a similar problem but by no means at the same level. During hyperinflation Peruvians escaped in "hordes" form Peru, but not at levels reached by Mexico. Chileans are making a big deal of immigrants [however they quickly gave a temporary amnesty after the Maritime Dispute came into scene], when we've seen a lot of Chileans working in Peru without any kind of permit, and we even protect them. And it has been like that for decades now [interrupted by terrorism and hyperinflation].


Thanks.

You are welcome.

[Tokamak]

How exactly is your country measuring poverty?. Statistics are a tricky thing. You can say whatever you want with statistics!.

I see Peru have had quite a rough time.

How does Mexico interfere with Peru?.

[pedro_rafael]

How exactly is your country measuring poverty?. Statistics are a tricky thing. You can say whatever you want with statistics!.


Not sure about the method employed. Previous heads of the National Institute of Statistics are questioning current methods. Thye argue that is up to debate whether poverty can be reduced by 8 or 10% in one year [that is well over one million people coming out of poverty each year].

That would be ~20% poverty around 2011-2013.


I see Peru have had quite a rough time.

That is the message that i've been trying to convey here in this forum. I do not consider that message irrelevant, given Peru's role in history [whether some like it or not].



How does Mexico interfere with Peru?.

They will not. I think we "may" be secure from Brasilian influence as well. Nothing against those but, you know, the theory of the big country swallowing the smaller and naive neighbour, seems that it is not going to happen here.

Peru is open to investments, but that's it.

BTW, the Maritime Dispute with Chile is helping people in Peru to open their eyes and really see our nice southern-neighbour behaving badly.

////////////////////////////////


10:03
[b]Peru’s president urges to keep patience and serenity for maritime dispute

http://batallonzepita.com/images/banner_Andina_0001.jpg (http://www.andina.com.pe/)


Lima, Jan. 27 (ANDINA).- Peru’s president, Alan García, urged to keep “patience and serenity” for the maritime dispute with Chile and to avoid replying the critiques coming from that country, since Peru has the legal instruments for this dispute.

He stated that Chile’s expressions against the lawsuit filed by Peru before the International Court of Justice The Hague are “almost comprehensible”.

When questioned about a Economic Complementary Agreement (Almost an FTA) between Peru and Chile is not an urgent issue within the Chilean Senate, he recalled that Peru has posed a ”background lawsuit” instead of a “daily anecdote”.

Peru’s president said that the politicians can’t afford to be in a sort of “adjective war” or saying “quick answers”, in allusion to the commentaries and questions made by Chilean politicians.

García Pérez stated that adopting an opposite position will show “weakness” when “we have strength, reason and justice in our favor”.

“Therefore, we do not have to behave as the weak who always want to have the last word”, he said.

In January 16th, Peru filed a lawsuit in The Hague requesting that Court to define the maritime borderline with Chile. Peru says that no borderline is defined in a treaty, but Chile thinks that this subject is closed because of the fishing agreements of 1952 and 1954.

(END) FPQ/GCO/LGV/LVT

Saludos,

[pedro_rafael]

Chilean enterpreneurs imitating [monkeying] their government ... Parallel Fraud.

Chileans now fake Peruvian brand of wine, Tacama
Olive oil company tries appropriating renowned Peruvian brand in Chile and Colombia.

http://www.expreso.com.pe/


To the claim of the Chilean company Sergio Kortmann to register the Peruvian pisco brand Viejo Tonel in its country, now joins the firm Neo Oils of Chile, that recorded under the name Tacama their bottles of olive oil.

But not only uses the name, but has copied the same typography and colour labelling and even the shape of the bottle of the prestigious national brand of wine and pisco.

The managing director of Tacama, Pedro Olaechea explained that became aware of this fact when the Chilean company sought to register the trademark in Colombia and have already submitted their respective legal action before the Colombian consumer protection agency in order to prevent the theft. " they want to hang on from our name and reputation.

It is unfortunate that there are people without imagination, trying to find the easy way out, not feeling the pride of doing something by themselves and lack self-esteem. We feel that is completely out of character to enter the international market and exploit our image in such a blatant manner, "Tacama" clarified, produces wine and pisco and are not interested in entering another line of products such as olive oil or delicatessen.

In that sense, warned other Peruvian industrialists who are alert to this new mode of fraud, trying to usurp their brands, using other product lines.

"We have lawyers in many parts of the world that are vigilant and will not to let other liquors copy our branding on our behalf. However, we left out the possibility of parallel fraud, products from other lines copying our brand, "he said.

The data
In 15 days, the agency in charge of intellectual property in Colombia will give its response on whether it accepts the request of Neo Oils Chile or gives reason to Tacama.

Traducido de manera automática


///////////Ends/////////

[Tokamak]

Sorry Pedro but to reduce 8 or 10% "poverty" in one year is something that I don't beleive possible. Be careful with what your government does, what they could easily do is give some minimum amount of money to poor people and say they are not poor anymore according to their description of poverty, which is bull****!.

[pedro_rafael]

Sorry Pedro but to reduce 8 or 10% "poverty" in one year is something that I don't beleive possible.

Well Dude, I've pushed a 2 Ton SUV through a small up-gradient myself once.

So, it really depends on each of you to see [by own effort] what is posssible or not. Same case to governments.

Peru is growing at 8%, but again, and as you say, it is really difficult to reduce poverty by such levels, but again, when having so much poverty is not that hard to reduce it, when people [and the neighbours] let you work.


Be careful with what your government does, what they could easily do is give some minimum amount of money to poor people and say they are not poor anymore according to their description of poverty, which is bull****!.

The government [any government] has a limit for hand-outs before it creates problems. People need to be helped but the government can't solve all their problems. It can really help, a lot, if people and the neighbours let them be.

Really hard to reduce 8% poverty in a year, but let's wait and see if they show TANGIBLE RESULTS.

Being Poor but being able to afford for food and housing makes for DECENT LIVING, a human being birthright.

Kind regards,

[NuclearHead]

I wonder if Bolivia and Peru would gang up on Chile in case of war.

In any case, I don't think there will be war.

[Tokamak]

Peru is growing at 8%, but again, and as you say, it is really difficult to reduce poverty by such levels, but again, when having so much poverty is not that hard to reduce it, when people [and the neighbours] let you work.
The government [any government] has a limit for hand-outs before it creates problems. People need to be helped but the government can't solve all their problems. It can really help, a lot, if people and the neighbours let them be.

Really hard to reduce 8% poverty in a year, but let's wait and see if they show TANGIBLE RESULTS.

Being Poor but being able to afford for food and housing makes for DECENT LIVING, a human being birthright.

Kind regards,

What do you think of your current government?.

[pedro_rafael]

What do you think of your current government?.

They are pretty much F*cked.

//////////////////

Nuclearhead nuked:

I wonder if Bolivia and Peru would gang up on Chile in case of war.



I do not know why people keep saying that. CHilean marketing, perhaps ?

Bolivia not only started a war they couldn't win [XIX Century], they left Peru at the midst of it, return home, and after the war tried to grab former Peruvian territory [from the very small desert that Chile caught and from where is not getting its current copper]. I mean, jeez, that is really f*cked up.

The most likely scenario nowadays is Ecuador-Chile vs Peru, where Peru would make a preventive attack into Ecuador after being attacke from the south - push deep into Ecuadorian territory - to keep them out of the game, and form a layered defense on the south, where a counteroffensive would be in place if the first attack is repelled, with Ecuador out of action. Grab back Arica - i've never heard anybody talking seriously about going to Santiago [ what the heck for? ] - defend it, and wait for settlement with forces on their ground.

All the southern voices [google it a little and you'll see, easiest is on You Tu] of we will defend ourselves till the last man, remind me of Chavez with its 100 year war. BLA< BLA< BLA ... When [and if] their Leopards and F-16s go, so will, their will to fight. IMHO. But Defense needs to get their act together big time.



In any case, I don't think there will be war.

Same here, however the United Nations have issue a report stating that WATER may be a source of conflict. ENERGY may be another.

And, congressmen from Peru are already voicing their disapproval to export gas to Chile. PLuspetrol - Argentinian and Spanish joint venture - wants to export gas to Chile, a gas that allegedly would be used by a munitions factory there. Logically, Congressmen are raising their voices, loudly.

Sell gas, so gas can be used to fuel armor against you, is a little stupid. Being nice.

Kindest Regards,

[pedro_rafael]

Chile ignores fishery agreement of 1954 and detains Peruvian fishing boat in buffer zone

http://www.larazon.com.pe

Victor Alvarado

Former Chancellor Manuel Rodriguez Cuadros complained that Chile had violated the 1954 Fishery Agreement, Fisheries having restricted the free movement agreed for artisanal fishermen of the two countries in the area [by fisheries agreements signed decades ago] that is currently in dispute in the Court at The Hague, where a Peruvian fishing boat has been unduly detained.

"This area is composed of 10 miles to the north and 10 miles to the south, starting form the parallel, established as marker for the buffer zone in 1954, not as maritime demarcation, but as a Guidance line for artisanal fishermen of the two countries because they had no other way to do it, " said.

Rodriguez Cuadros cautioned the current chancellor Jose Antonio Garcia Belaunde to immediately send a protest note to Chile for the arrest of a national vessel, as the ship was circulating in the area of maritime dispute on which the Peruvian government does not recognize exercise of sovereignity by Chile, but mere complaince of fishery agreements.

Everything indicates that the arrest took place a mile from the sanctions-excerpt area established by the Fisheries agreement of 1954 [which Chile now considers as maritime treaty between the two countries], where this document, to the letter said that "the accidental passage of Chilean or Peruvian fishing boats in this area should not be subject to sanctions ".

Therefore, he added, the fine of 140 thousand dollars apparently imposed by the Captaincy of the port of Arica, would have no legal basis or support in international law and its implementation would be an illegal act because it would be in contravention of a provision of the Agreement of 1954.

"I hope that the Chancellor send a protest or strangeness note to indicate that the fishing vessel was in the area of controversy that has been subjected to the court in The Hague and reiterate that the government of Peru does not recognize any maritime boundary between the two countries but a buffer zone per corresponding agreements, "said.


/////////////////////

Appearantly, Chile wants to demonstrate the De-Facto sovereignity rights over the buffer zone.

Peru may send a request to the Hague to issue a De-Militarization order of the buffer zone while legal proceedings are ongoing. 11 sich measures have been issued by the Hague in other cases.

[Gerle]

Man I'd love to hear the other side of this story!

[Ordie]

Didn't Bolivia got beaten up by Paraguay in the Chaco region?

Any way, he's the third side of the coin.

The economies of Chile and Peru are expected to grow this year. Ecuador is still weak. The last time Ecuador and Peru had a conflict it left Ecuador very instable both politically and economically.

Correa may play the populist but he's not stupid to get involved another fight. Neither is Chile and Peru. It's alway's better to cooperate than compete.

[pedro_rafael]

Man I'd love to hear the other side of this story!

The other side of the story is this: The Fishery Agreements define the Maritime Limits, based on the parallel. That's it. No more. No less.

They take specific phrases and wordings of the agreements to mold [diplomatic lapses resulting from the temporal and specific nature of those agreements] convenient interpretations.

That is basically why i mostly quote news instead of feeding the news with my appreciation of them, which would add up. That is what some people call 'being fair' [in English] or 'ser justo' [in Spanish]. The spanish phrase is much richer and generous, though.

I would even quote Chilean news - sometimes i do - to let people make unbiased opinions whenever possible but i do not have the time to do so. My deepest apologies for not being able to be on this 24/7, so you can be completely and absolutely informed about the matter. I kindly - i repeat, kindly - invite you to use google.


Posted by Ordie

Didn't Bolivia got beaten up by Paraguay in the Chaco region?

If you say so.



Any way, he's the third side of the coin.

Coins do not have three sides. At least, last time i checked. Bolivia and Chile have outstanding problems, that are to be dealt by Bolivia and Chile. It would involve Peru only if they decide to affect former Peruvian Territory [North of Arica].


The economies of Chile and Peru are expected to grow this year.

The official numbers for 2007 are in: Peruvian Economy grew 8.99%


Ecuador is still weak. The last time Ecuador and Peru had a conflict it left Ecuador very instable both politically and economically.

Ecuador doesn't need to be strong in order to be a destabilizing factor in a crisis. Like in Cenepa conflict, they only need to focus on an area to distract considerable resources.


Correa may play the populist but he's not stupid to get involved another fight.

He can't afford it. Following governments may have different contexts. The hague proceedings will last several years.


Neither is Chile and Peru.

My impression is that Chile is going to make a full show out of this "problem", to further market itself in a positive light. Peru will benefit no matter what the outcome of the legal proceedings are.


It's alway's better to cooperate than compete.

Peru is seeking legal assistance from the Hague to avoid further damage to bilateral relations here. According to President Garcia, Peru wants to compete economically with Chile, in order to cement bilateral cooperation with similar footing.

Saludos,

[Ordie]

Coins do not have three sides.

The surface between the two sides. (called the collar) :)

It's a god bar trivia.

[pedro_rafael]

Sharp !!!

Same logic - stretching it a lot, but it works here - at a greater scale here ...

The Maritime Limit is set by Fishery Agreements.

... As you will see in the case of Chile that closed thinking [which i fell into as well, answering your post] has filtered onto government level. And that is really, really bad.

Those cases [more than one interpretation] are specially suited for Courts.


Moving on, a good chilean newspaper to look for news into this is El Mercurio. Biased, but good.

http://www.emol.com/

And btw, i edited that last article, because it was very, very biased. In the same edition, La Razon had another couple of patriotic articles, that where a little too much. That is the trend of that newspaper, but couldn't find another source. However, La Razon, has excelent historic correspondents, some former military, and their articles are not only interesting but fun.

If you want a full shower of Chilean Patriotism, go here:

http://www.soberaniachile.cl/

This page is trying to reverse history.

If anybody else wants a little more, i have links for a couple of southern forums, where you can entertain yourself to tears.

Saludos,

[Auzaider]

...
If you want a full shower of Chilean Patriotism, go here:

http://www.soberaniachile.cl/

This page is trying to reverse history.

...

Nice website... according to them half Argentina is theirs p-)
In Argentina, when someone is not worth to be trusted, we use to say that that person is "more dangerous than a Chilean drawing maps". :)
Anyway, I'm glad we don't have any more territorial disputes with them, war would have been a horrible thing back in '78.

[pedro_rafael]

"more dangerous than a Chilean drawing maps". :)


Good one !!

:)


I've once read [on a Chilean forum] a Chilean talking about their "Monroe Doctrine" after the Salitre War.

That was really it !!!

:):)

[pedro_rafael]

Negative article published last Sunday on Chilean newspaper La Nacion.

Spanish Version: http://batallonzepita.com/gallosdepelea/2008/04/13/que-pinera-se-lave-bien-las-manos/

Piñera should wash his hands well

by Antonio Gil
Light Weight Class

La Nacion (http://www.lanacion.cl/)

Sunday April 6, 2008

The former senator Sebastian Piñera, feeling very tacky and already [Piñera is a candidate to the Presidency of Chile] President of Chile, has been photographed shaking the hand of Peruvian President Alan Garcia.

That very hand that in the first Alanist Government of 1985 1990, sank up to the elbow in the treasury of Peru, people without memory, which was plundered by Garcia and his friends - the so-called "twelve apostles" - as never happened in history.

Piñera shaked warmly the hand that defraud funds for a multimillion electric train that never worked, while flashes recorded this major event as "historic", Piñera wanted to "get in the international sphere" in times of serious territorial differences with the neighbouring country . what was he been thinking? Garcia, Mr Piñera is the same that grabbed with his manicured hand, handfuls of millionaire kickbacks for the re-sale of the Mirage 2000.

Same little hand that received his due, and more, by the irregular sale of shares of the foreign debt. Same hand that ointed itself with gold from rotten meat imports. The same hand, the same Alan Garcia Perez of yesterday, which was clouted with the blood of about 10 thousand dead, massacred in a brutal and futile counter-insurgency policy by creating the sinister and clandestine paramilitary group Scorpio.

Can anyone imagine, in good faith, that enlightened Piñera did not know which hand was he caressing so tenderly? In 1991, when Alan Garcia had left the Government, Parliament indict him for a number of crimes: illegal enrichment, kickbacks in the purchase of aircraft and other charges more typical of a Las Vegas gánster that of a former President.

What Garcia did? He simply fled to take refuge at the home of his friend and compadre, Venezuelan Celptocrat Carlos Andrés Pérez. Only then, he avoided what awaited him. That hand so close anointing the presidenciable Piñera is the same as in 1985, with a gesture of his thumb, ordered to burn alive 34 prisoners locked in a prison in Lima.

The same tender little hand which lifted the phone to order the cowardly massacre of 300 prisoners in the prisons of Lurigancho, El Fronton and Santa Barbara. The same hand that you shake, Piñera, was responsible for hundreds of killings in cold blood, while the young President went with whores on the weekends, as stiff as a leg of a poisoned dog.

And while the good folk Garcia played the guitar, which he does well, with those hands that Piñera do not loosen until the finally snapshot is taken, were killed, among many, the lawyer Manuel Febres and Saul Cantoral, unforgettable leader of the Peruvian Federation of Mining.

Can Don Sebastian Piñera learn from the Peruvian proverb which reads: "Chicken that eats eggs, even if the peak burns," meaning that Garcia will always be Garcia.

The crazied quest fro brilliance of our former senator leads to mistakes like this. His compulsive strategies, with a lot of delusion of grandeur, led the budding candidate to play his hands with an abhorrent being, despite its innumerable reinventions.

Pity that there is no vaccine against the lure of plunder, against that cleptomany that will soon reappear.

We recommend to Piñera that, in any event, wash his hands with alcohol. It must not be healthy the contact with so much ill-gotten US dollars, with so much blood spilled in vain.


////////////////////

Mr Gil may be a candidate for a big time Lawsuit.

Sebastian Piñera is a candidate for the Presidency of Chile, visited Peru last week despite objections from the government of Chile - because of the ongoing kawsuit at the Hague. Chilean Businessmen also had expressed their hopes to settle the maritime problem at the Hague.

Hope thay also open their market. A Chilean Senator stated that Peru must show friendly sign so Chilean congress can approve the Economic Agreement between both Countries. Peruvian response has been that Chile has the most to lose if the agreement is not approved. So be it. It benefits Chilean companies investing in Peru.

[pedro_rafael]

The Chilean newspaper La Nacion is an Official or otherwise State Sponsored Newspaper.

IT SEEMS that the Peruvian Government is going to request an explanation, directly to the Director of the paper.

The President of The Peruvian Congress, Luis Gonzales, is amazed at the caliber of the words as well as the quantity of adjectives printed on an Chilean official [otherwise officialy sponsored] media. Gonzales went on to support Sebastian Piñera for his gesture towards Peru.

Gonzales finished hoping that the Chilean government feelings towards Peru are not represented by said article.

Saludos,

[pedro_rafael]

ACCIDENT:


A Peruvian Army Truck loaded with soldiers accidentally ventured into Chilean Territory when surveying frontier markers.

According to military sources, the Truck unexpectedly got stuck in the sand, and the only way to break free was to venture into Chilean Territory. The truck travelled 2 kilometers inside Chile - parallel to the frontier - and went into a frontier post to explain the accident.

Peruvian Military authorities went to the Chilean city of Arica to further explain the incident. The Peruvian ambassador to Santiago was also called by the government of Chile, and the explanations had satisfied Chilean authorities.

http://batallonzepita.com/gallosdepelea/2008/04/30/incidente-por-ingreso-de-camion-militar-peruano-ha-territorio-chileno-ha-sido-superado-asegura-canciller/

Saludos,