US Property No4 MK1 Enfield

[Geezah]

I picked one of these up today for $65.

I'm not sure that it's a Savage made Lend Lease rifle, as it did not have(from what I've seen online) the standard Savage markings.

So is there anyone on here(HOLLis?p-)) that might be able to give a little bit of background information on these?

THe bolt does not match, but it's not in bad shape, and the bore looks good.

I'll post a few pics later.

I picked this up, along with an Ariska(with bayonet) and a VZ52 for a couple of my shooting buddies to look over.
My father-in-laws nephew is selling a few rifles off :).

[Hollis]

I picked one of these up today for $65.

I'm not sure that it's a Savage made Lend Lease rifle, as it did not have(from what I've seen online) the standard Savage markings.

So is there anyone on here(HOLLis?p-)) that might be able to give a little bit of background information on these?

THe bolt does not match, but it's not in bad shape, and the bore looks good.

I'll post a few pics later.

I picked this up, along with an Ariska(with bayonet) and a VZ52 for a couple of my shooting buddies to look over.
My father-in-laws nephew is selling a few rifles off :).


Look for "S" on the stock and rifle, I need to look at mine. That is a good price, if it is clean. Might want to check the head space.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/savageno4/index.asp

[Geezah]

Look for "S" on the stock and rifle, I need to look at mine. That is a good price, if it is clean. Might want to check the head space.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/savageno4/index.asp

I checked out that link before posting. I checked and there isn't an S marking in front of the No$ MK1. There is an S above the serial# on the metal band behind the receiver.

Also, how do I go about checking the head space, this is a first for me, as I've always purchased new?

[Hollis]

I checked out that link before posting. I checked and there isn't an S marking in front of the No$ MK1. There is an S above the serial# on the metal band behind the receiver.

Also, how do I go about checking the head space, this is a first for me, as I've always purchased new?


All you really need is a No Go head space guage, 12 -22 dollars at Brownell. Insert guage and the bolt should NOT go into battery.

Or fire a round and carefully inspect the case........... Problem with this method, if the round disassembles the rifle, it can do serious distruction to the shooter too. This is not recommended unless

If you bought it from someone who has shot it, then at least you have a idea that is will shoot.


or have a gunsmith do it.

[Geezah]

All you really need is a No Go head space guage, 12 -22 dollars at Brownell. Insert guage and the bolt should NOT go into battery.

Or fire a round and carefully inspect the case........... Problem with this method, if the round disassembles the rifle, it can do serious distruction to the shooter too. This is not recommended unless

If you bought it from someone who has shot it, then at least you have a idea that is will shoot.


or have a gunsmith do it.


I puchased it from extended family, and I did ask the question as to whether or not he had shot it. He said it worked fine, and I trust his judgement, as I have shot with him in the past but to be on the safe side I think I will see if one of the guys I shoot with could bring a head space gauge to a little get together we're having next Saturday.

[GazB]

My Mk4 has an asterisk on the end to show it was an american made lee enfield... ie it is a Mk4* number 4 model rifle.

[T3ngu]

My Mk4 has an asterisk on the end to show it was an american made lee enfield... ie it is a Mk4* number 4 model rifle.

I have a no1 MkIII*. My understanding is that the * designates an newer version than the original No1 MKIII rather than where it was built. Can anyone confirm? Hollis?

Mk4s are nice.

[Geezah]

Here are the pics,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2351.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2352.jpg

Has anyone sen the grooves in the top wood before?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2354.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2355.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2358.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2359.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2360.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2364.jpg

Let me know if you need any more pics?

[boone]

Has anyone sen the grooves in the top wood before?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2354.jpg

I have one ( in storage) With the grooves manufactured in 1950, issued to me brand new out of the wrapping in '92-'93 from Canadian "War-stocks"
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6840/xmas06106gu9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Hollis]

yes. that is made by Savage.

[Durandal]

[Back from the grave sort of]

Awesome looking rifle Geezah. I must have missed the whole "I am going to the OGCA show" at dinner the other night...I was on my 4th liter of beer when they kicked us out.

You need to talk to Swingset, he knows Enfields more than any guy I know.

Back to my hole.

Oh, and hey there Hollis! :)

[Hollis]

[Back from the grave sort of]

Awesome looking rifle Geezah. I must have missed the whole "I am going to the OGCA show" at dinner the other night...I was on my 4th liter of beer when they kicked us out.

You need to talk to Swingset, he knows Enfields more than any guy I know.

Back to my hole.

Oh, and hey there Hollis! :)

Hey...........Durandal

I have a Friend who is my Enfield advisor. I am so so not so good.

My secret is that I hang around people much smarter than me.

[Durandal]

My secret is that I hang around people much smarter than me.

Me to, well, that and "they own lots of NFA goodies" too. :)

[T3ngu]

Here are the pics,


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2360.jpg



Let me know if you need any more pics?

As I procastinate way too much I found this which was interesting...


No4 and No5 rifle were given a starting number that may be used to identify manufacturers, but again there was no set serial blocks. British No4 rifles were set up with a 5 digit serial number system with 1XXXX being allotted to Maltby, 2XXXX Fazakerley, 3XXXX BSA Shirley. Yet again, once the sequence of numbers caped out letter prefixes were used to start the sequence over. In the case of Savage Stevens the serial numbers began with a 0C1 and for Long Branch 0L1, these serials progressed in sequence directly relating the serial number to the number of rifles produced. An example would be: rifle serial number 52C2689 would be the 522,689th rifle produced by Savage Stevens.


Found it source (http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/in2.htm)

If that is correct you have the 343162th rifle produced by BSA Shirley which is obviously wrong. A little more digging found this about the S on the rifle.


Savage Stevens trademark, found on all parts manufactured by them at their Chicopee Falls, USA, plant while producing No4 MkI and MkI* Lee Enfields for the British government under the Lend Lease program. source (http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/gh11.htm)

Also under the 1942 is the US Military's flaming bomb which is the acceptance mark.

Probably way too much info but interesting none the less. Nice rifle, i particularily like the rear sight which is a big improvement on the No1 MK3*.

Cheers

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Nice rifle. My next bolt action will be a P17 :)

[Buckeye67]

Has anyone sen the grooves in the top wood before?


Nice Enfield, Geez. I love mine to pieces. My Long Branch (canadian made) No. 4 Mk 1* has the same grooves.

(Also, as mentioned, the * doesn't indicate US manufacture, it denotes a newer variant.)

There's an NRA reprint booklet about Enfield rifles that's really great - I'll see if I can dig mine up. It's in a box here somewhere. :p

[Geezah]

Awesome looking rifle Geezah. I must have missed the whole "I am going to the OGCA show" at dinner the other night...I was on my 4th liter of beer when they kicked us out.

Not the OGCA, my father-in-laws nephew, it's a shame you won't be there Saturday to see the other goodies I will be bringing along for Ben and Davep-)



You need to talk to Swingset, he knows Enfields more than any guy I know.


Forgot about Swingset, I'll have to hit him up for info.

[Geezah]

As I procastinate way too much I found this which was interesting...

Cheers


Thank you, that's a start.

:D

[Limeyfellow]

You have a 1942 dated No4 Mk1* Lee Enfield rifle.

The serial number for the rifle is 34C3162 indicating it was the 343162 Savage made rifle indicating it was made later in 1942. Probrobly in late fall.

Below the 1942 is the flaming bomb, indicating a US ordinance mark.

US PROPERTY indicates it was part of the lend lease programme.

It has the .303 British calibre mark below it.
I can't read the stuff below it, but it looks like some sort of importation marks.

Now you see that little U around the arrow. That is a South Africa mark, meaning most likely after WW2 it was shipped to service there. This is probrobly where it was imported back into the US from.

I am not sure what the M inside the U means.

The grooves on the handguard were common on a number of Lee Enfields. Originally all the No4s were going to have it but different contracters added them or didn't. There is no real fast or hard rule of which should have grooves and which shouldn't.

You have the mark 2 rear flip sight on the rifle. That is quite common to the Savage. They switched from the original one to the flip rear sight in 1942 and is found on almost all Savage made Lee Enfields.

Over all you got a really good find for $60, even with a different bolt. If the headspace is out of spec you can easily get a larger bolt head to screw on or shorter one to fix that problem. Normally such rifles go for over double this cost.

[Hollis]

Limey, to bad youy don't live near me, I have a number of Enfields. Oldest is a 1914 BSA training rifle.

That is fantastic information.

[Geezah]

I second that Limeyfellow, many thanks for the info.

I managed to get a head space gauge today, and from what I can tell it's ok. I was told that I put the gauge in place and try and close the bolt. If the bolt closes then I need to get it taken care of.

[Hollis]

I second that Limeyfellow, many thanks for the info.

I managed to get a head space gauge today, and from what I can tell it's ok. I was told that I put the gauge in place and try and close the bolt. If the bolt closes then I need to get it taken care of.


There are two types, Go and No Go. Go = bolt closes ok.

No Go, bolt won't close all the way.

Go is used mostly when cutting the chamber to besure there is sifficient head space.

NoGo is used to determine too much head space. If the bolt close than that is the case.

[Death.]

Whether or not you're certain of it's history that is a beautiful rifle man, and for 65$ too, congrats.

[Mr X]

Here are the pics,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Geezah/100_2364.jpg

Let me know if you need any more pics?

U with the Arrow denotes Union of South African ownership.

Haven't seen that marking on one of those.

Can you tell me what the electro pencil markings are on the LHS of the receiver?

[Geezah]

U with the Arrow denotes Union of South African ownership.

Haven't seen that marking on one of those.

Can you tell me what the electro pencil markings are on the LHS of the receiver?

Many thanks,

The markings on the left side are hard to make out but here goes,

303 BRITISH
UNITED KINGDOM
ZAC ALEX VA

or the last line reads,

IAC ALEX UA.

I personally believe it is ZAC ALEX.

I tried shooting the Enfield yesterday but I could not get the bolt to lock down.

I purchased new production Privi .303, and and I think the bolt head is a #3.

Question, and I'm not sure if it can be easliy answered, but should I look at a #2 or #1 replacement bolt head?

[oswald]

I noticed on my no1 mk3 when you remove the bolt, the bolt head rotates and screws up or down - I assume to adjust headspace. Maybe yours got turned at some point?

[Geezah]

I noticed on my no1 mk3 when you remove the bolt, the bolt head rotates and screws up or down - I assume to adjust headspace. Maybe yours got turned at some point?

I tinker with things and after talking to Bryan @ AIM Surplus(great guys), he told me about the different bolt head sizes to adjust for head space.

The bolt head is screwed all the way down and it has the flaming bomb along with a #3 on it. The thing is I don't want to go ordering the wrong bolt head if I can avoid it.

[Buckeye67]

Hey Geez,

According to that NRA booklet I was talking about there are 4 bolt heads available for the No 4 and 5 rifles, each differing by .003" increments. Yours with the 3 is the longest (the numbers go from 0 for the shortest to 3).

[Geezah]

Hey Geez,

According to that NRA booklet I was talking about there are 4 bolt heads available for the No 4 and 5 rifles, each differing by .003" increments. Yours with the 3 is the longest (the numbers go from 0 for the shortest to 3).

That's what Bryan was telling me.

Now I have to work out which Bolt Head to go with, a #2 or #1......

[Buckeye67]

Any way they'd let you order both, then send back the one that didn't work?

[Geezah]

Any way they'd let you order both, then send back the one that didn't work?

That's the thing, I'm not sure Numrich or Sarc would be up for doing that, but it won't hurt to try.

I might check Ebay as well.

[California Joe]

ALEX VA could denote Alexandria, Virginia?

IAC International Arms Corp?

Just some thoughts...:)

[Geezah]

ALEX VA could denote Alexandria, Virginia?

IAC International Arms Corp?

Just some thoughts...:)

You got me thinking and I Googled IAC Alex VA and came up with the following,

MAKE: Enfield
MODEL: No 4 Mk 1
MADE: UK
CALIBER: 303 British
SERIAL NUMBER: PF65861
YEAR MADE: 1948 (December)
TYPE: military bolt-action (10-round) detachable magazine cartridge rifle
REMARKS: British front line rifle during WWII, a Lee-Enfield is second to no other bolt-action battlefield rifle. Flip up micrometer, blade bayonet. Built at the Fazakerly factory. Marked: "VNS" "N.79" (Viners) - "Union of South Africa" (military crest). Import mark: IAC Alex VA.
Alan's Gun Collection (http://www.geocities.com/alancook.geo/alanguns.htm)

[California Joe]

I keep telling you guys I'm a genius. :)

[Hollis]

I keep telling you guys I'm a genius. :)


Or you proved Murphy's law, "No amount of planning can replace blind luck."

[California Joe]

Did you just call me a blind pig finding an acorn? :)

Geez, this forum seems to have a ton of info...almost as much as Limey

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forums/70/t/The-Lee-Enfield-Forum.html

[Hollis]

Did you just call me a blind pig finding an acorn? :)

Geez, this forum seems to have a ton of info...almost as much as Limey

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forums/70/t/The-Lee-Enfield-Forum.html


No No, it is truffle not acorn.........


gee Did I just type that? :) <-- smiley face that turneth away wrath.

[Hollis]

This is about all mine has on it.

It has US Property. On the left side of the waist band, serial number and letter "B".

[Limeyfellow]

Some people become nervous around the Lee Enfield, since the bolt handle doesn't lock down and hold really tight like it does on a Mauser and so on. There is a little wiggle and it is relatively easy to lift the bolt up. It is part of the cocking on closing method that the Lee Enfield uses. It is very pervalent if you dry fire a Lee Enfield at howmuch the bolt handle jumps when you fire it, though that won't jump if you are firing a round.

If the headspace came out okay your Lee Enfield should be fine to fire. The number 3 bolt heads are kind of rare and it looks like someone has gone out of their way to put this Lee Enfield back into specs.

The IAC ALEX VA is the importation mark of Interarms Corporation. They went out of business back in 1999 after spending many years importing some fine firearms, both commercial and military surplus.

[California Joe]

Yeah, I figured that out after I posted. They used to have ads in Shotgun News all the time.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Some people become nervous around the Lee Enfield, since the bolt handle doesn't lock down and hold really tight like it does on a Mauser and so on. There is a little wiggle and it is relatively easy to lift the bolt up. It is part of the cocking on closing method that the Lee Enfield uses. It is very pervalent if you dry fire a Lee Enfield at howmuch the bolt handle jumps when you fire it, though that won't jump if you are firing a round.


That's why the bolt can be opened and closed much faster on an Enfield, other bolt action rifles are slower to fire.

[California Joe]

Pretty sure he knows that.

[Limeyfellow]

Yes, I must admit that I have done the Lee Enfield speed shoot challenge my fair share of times.

My wife is going to be mad when she sees the new Lee Enfield edition for this week.

[Thumpsquid]

tell her you're in a rifle buying competition with some people in the US, and the one who gets the most Lee-Enfields gets a free holiday off the losers. You should then be able to buy more than you can comfortably imagine; and what's more, your missus will help you.p-)

[Geezah]

Some people become nervous around the Lee Enfield, since the bolt handle doesn't lock down and hold really tight like it does on a Mauser and so on. There is a little wiggle and it is relatively easy to lift the bolt up. It is part of the cocking on closing method that the Lee Enfield uses. It is very pervalent if you dry fire a Lee Enfield at howmuch the bolt handle jumps when you fire it, though that won't jump if you are firing a round.

If the headspace came out okay your Lee Enfield should be fine to fire. The number 3 bolt heads are kind of rare and it looks like someone has gone out of their way to put this Lee Enfield back into specs.

The IAC ALEX VA is the importation mark of Interarms Corporation. They went out of business back in 1999 after spending many years importing some fine firearms, both commercial and military surplus.

I've shot Enfields before, but there was something not right about the bolt not locking down on mine. You could see where the rim to the .303 shell was stopping it from closing down.

I'm going to order up a #1 Savage bolt head from Springfield Shooters tomorrow as the #2 seems to be quite rare.

Thanks again for all the info :)

[oswald]

That's what Bryan was telling me.

Now I have to work out which Bolt Head to go with, a #2 or #1......
Gunbroker has an auction for a #1 bolt head, just to let you know.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=89535190

[Geezah]

Gunbroker has an auction for a #1 bolt head, just to let you know.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=89535190

Cheers for that.

I came across it earlier today in my search, but Springfield Shooters has a used Savage stripped bolt head for $9, and I'd prefer to try and keep all items Savage over LB(Canadian made), if at all possible.

:)

[Barebow]

Nice rifle. My next bolt action will be a P17 :)

Like this one Great rifle !

[Mr X]

I keep telling you guys I'm a genius. :)

LOL.
That was nice detective work!

[Hollis]

Not a great picture of my P17, it is in really great shape. Below is a original Win Mod 87.


http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/questionable.jpg

[Hollis]

For some of you old Canadian collectors

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k226/Hollis6475/Oldies.jpg

[Hollis]

For some of you old Canadian collectors




No takers? One is a P14, the other is a 1910 Ross. Both in .303.

[California Joe]

I knew that Hollis, Jeez. I forgot to check this thread. :|